CIBA Insurance purchasing group...Help

[GLPDins]

Hello Group, and i must say a very lively one. We are thinking of getting involved with CIBA Insurance Purchasing Group. Their Webb site is very limited concerning coverage information. There group claims $500,000,000 property and $76,000,000 GL as group coverage. But i can't seem to find out what form Basic, broad or special form. They have 2 coverage's offered Basic and Comprehensive. Any help would be great; we really need another avenue for HOA's and commercial property

[tuffdeal]

The website certainly contains a telephone number.

Why not call them with your question?

[LadyBroker]

Their website is limited for a reason...unless you really have no other options, why would you consider this as for your clients? You have to share coverage with you don't know how many other clients, and how would you ever adjust a claim? There are other markets out there.

[GLPDins]

tuffdeal, your right i could call. I have learned many moons ago there is always two points of view. Your's and theirs. As for LadyBroker, your absolutely correct i have research the CIBA platform. If your not appointed with a good admitted carrier that write's HOA's or you have and HOA with a horrible loss history or old buildings they maybe your only hope for the property side. I personally will not chase poor business.
There was a quote from another agent who was trying to take one of my Travelers Ins HOA's. I was laughing so hard it hurt, as i knew enough that CIBA is a risk retention group. I did need to learn more before shutting down the other agent and CIBA.

[INS WIZ]

Re: CIBA

This forum didn't last long. Appears CIBA doesn't underwrite, the application is three pages quote comes back in a week. They are buying business so look out!

Any super ideas from all my highly intelligent independent agents who
write with normal companies with certain underwriting requirements, on ideas to beat this RPG off with a stick?

They put up an aggregate property limit of $500 M and a liability limit of
$85 M . They write all their policies 3-31 to 3-31. Apparently each year the go out and round up Companies both admitted and non-admited for various layers. For Property that was 15 companies. For Liability AXIS
and ARCH have various layers.

Now this shared limit(s) are supposed to cover Habitational risks in 8 states. Earthquake is also offered. They have 30 agents. One designated person handles California, Arizona, Nevada.

They only insure Industrial, Residential (more than 4 units), Office Retail,
Lessor's Risk.

It appears something like this is very Las Vegas like!

Please, all, share you thoughts.

[pullthese]

This is straight from IRMI.com:

Damage to Premises Rented to You Limit
Coverage for Damage to Premises Rented to You is not provided by a specific coverage grant but rather by exceptions to certain exclusions found in Coverage A""bodily injury and property damage. The first exception provides coverage for property damage to premises, including the contents of the premises, rented to the named insured for 7 or fewer consecutive days if an insured is legally obligated to pay for such damage due to any cause except fire.

The second exception, formerly known as fire damage legal liability, provides coverage for damage only to the premises (not the contents of the premises) if an insured is legally obligated to pay for the property damage, but only if the damage is caused by fire. Any legal liability imposed on an insured must arise out of tort and not contract for either exception (and thus the coverage) to apply. In other words, if an insured is held liable solely due to an agreement to be responsible for the property or for damage to the property, there is no coverage.

The coverage granted by the exceptions noted above is subject to the Damage to Premises Rented to You limit listed on the declarations. The limit applies to any one premises and is a sublimit of the each occurrence limit. Therefore, any property damage paid under the Damage to Premises Rented to You limit will reduce the each occurrence limit for that same occurrence and will also reduce the general aggregate limit.

Please encourage your client to purchase a commercial property/liability policy, and have their attorney draft a solid legal lease agreement with specific insurance requirements that the business entity must furnish the individual building owners.

[MSchneiderman]

This thread has been dormant for about 4 years....I've run into CIBA a couple of times lately on habitational risks (specifically apartment buildings). So far the insured doesn't seem to mind that CIBA is backed by non-admitteds, and like the fact that their policy comes with a $10M umbrella. How should I be selling against them?

[msquire]

I encounter thes issues from time to time (not specifically pertaining to CIBA) re. "pools" marketed to community associations (aka "HOAs") here in California (I am an attorney, and some of my clients are community associations). For what it's worth, my blog post at http://msquire.wordpress.com/2009/09/14/the-importance-of-knowing-that-you-dont/ might help you get the insured thinking along the right lines.

[InsGal]

TO: MSchneiderman

Purchasing Groups tend to appeal to Insured's because they are usually much less expensive than a more traditional dedictated policy and the programs tend to throw big limits at the Insured, as well as a bunch of "extra" coverages.

Here is the biggest point to sell against. It is a shared limits program. This means that in the event of a large castrophic loss hitting the program (especially when talking about EQ, but it could also apply to a large Liability loss as well) there is no guarantee that they will get their loss paid at full limits. Also any Aggregated Limits can get eaten up by other members.

Also, as was stated in the older posts, your Insured will be penalized for other Insured's losses. Even though they may have not had a loss in several years, if the program has big enough losses from other members of the pool, their premium will go up along with everyone else's.

Lastly, your Insured is now a little fish in a big sea. They will become 1 of thousands of Insured's, and getting any kind of personal service or specific issues addressed that may be unique to their operation, will be very difficult at best.

If your Insured is only concerned about price, it is tough to sell against. But if the concern is more about coverages and service, you have a chance.

[reallyknows]

I would suggest contacting an authorized CIBA broker or CIBA themselves and asking your questions. It makes far more sense than trying to get information from individuals who are not involved with the Program or do not represent the Program.
For instance, did you know the policy provided through the CIBA Property Program provides guaranteed replacement cost with no co-insurance requirement (which few if any carriers provide anymore) on a per occurrence basis with no aggregate limit.The coverage also automatically reinstates to full limits following an occurrence. In addition, there are at least a dozen coverages in the property form that are typically excluded under the ISO form, but are provided as standard coverage in the CIBA Property form. Furthermore, the sub-limits available are provided at broader, more adequate limits.
The CIBA Program has been developed from a risk management perspective and will provide the coverages you don't know you need until you need them. It is priced competitively for the superior coverage it offers.
As you may know in insurance “pooled” is defined as the sharing of premiums and losses in order to spread risk. The CIBA Program is not a pooled program or a risk purchasing group (as you may know under the Risk Retention Act that only applies to liability coverage). The CIBA Program is a commercial real estate insurance program which provides individual coverage to each named insured for the location(s) they elect to insure.
Take it from someone who really knows.

[commoncents]

Gee. Wonder who reallyknows works for?? Let me think.

Gaps galore. Beware.

[volstrike3]

This thread started in 2006 and maybe some of the complaints were valid at that time... but as of today
CIBA has a good program. They have made adjustments over the years to make it more user friendly with expanded coverage (not sharing limits on the primary layers, per location limits, no more common X date, etc). The limits that are shared (excess above $10M, EQ/Flood, etc) are generally above and beyond what most property owners, HOA's etc are purchasing on their own. I see those limits as gravy and don't sub them for a true DIC if that is what the property currently has. No one carrier or program is perfect for every risk... but CIBA definetly has a place. They are not consistently the cheapest quote and their underwriting is sound in my opinion. I have gotten great quotes out of them but I have also seen Travelers, CIG, Mercury, Allied, Sequoia, Allstate, OneBeacon, Farmers and Fireman's Fund write business that CIBA wouldn't quote or at a much lower rate than CIBA offered. They don't just buy business in my experience. I have not been through a large claim with them so I cannot speak to their claims service.... but so far I have been happy with them as a business partner.

[SFOInsuranceLady]

CIBA is a continued thorn in my side as far as RPG's are concerned. Yes, they write "GRC" without a co-insurance clause, however, I wonder how many accounts are "sharing" the limits and wonder what will happen when the well runs dry and CIBA can't pay out claims on the remaining risks. They don't even insure to RC value

I lose clients because of their "great rates" even though I can beat their rate by 6 cents per $100....it's just my carriers refuse to insure below current repalcement values as CIBA does. I suppose I will hear back from my clients when they have difficulty with a claim...so frustrating!

[NYagent301]

I found this a challenge also, whereas some carriers will write RC with lower than RC limits. I think you have to do some risk management. For example if you have 40 buildings spread over a large area, you may be able to underwrite still with discipline and arrive at an blanket agreed amount with your carrier. If the building(s) are in a concentrated area I'd have a concern with this practice. As much as it goes against my grain, this is what's happening out there.

[HOA Expert]

While I am hoping Hurricane Irene doesn't cause significant damage to the east coast, I am curious to see what will happen if some of these "shared limits" property programs don't have enough coverage to pay for these losses. More important, if policy limits are exhausted, will all of the other HOA's in their program be left bare until they can find enough coverage to restore their master policy limits? Furthermore, will these HOA's want to pay these additional premiums less than 6 months into their annual policy period? It won't be cheap, that's for sure.