CPCU vs. ARM

[Jeffrey]

I am evaluating whether to begin studying for the CPCU vs. ARM. I would like to obtain both but wanted opinions on whether both is needed and/or order to take.

Thanks!

[simiinsuranceguy]

I have both and have found that I use more of what I learned from the ARM than the CPCU. I started with the CPCU, passed a few sections, then went to the ARM. Finished that relativley quickly, then went back to the CPCU. Risk Management is very helpful not only in my professional life, but also in my private life.
Good Luck!

[tstjh]

I have both, also. I finished my CPCU first, then did my ARM. I would have to agree, too, that I find myself using the ARM in both personal and professional life more so than the CPCU. However, I do recommend going the distance and getting your CPCU at some point because of its broadness.

[scott]

It depends on what your job and interests are. Underwriter? CPCU. Risk Manager? ARM then CPCU.

Producer? CIC then CPCU then ARM.

As I recall the "new" CPCU system gives credit for some of the ARM program. You may be able to kill 2 birds with one section if you structure the order of your tests.

The vital thing is that you continue to expand what you know about your job, our industry, business, and capitalism.

[pita3333]

Love Scotts comment at end of his last post....

The vital thing is that you continue to expand what you know about your job, our industry, business, and capitalism.

I totally agree...especially with the capitalism comment!

[str-il]

As previously stated, you will probably get credit for at least one of the CPCU courses for the completion of the ARM. Check their website to make sure, they have online automated course advisor systems that will help you understand the options. I know many people that have done the ARM first, then the CPCU and a few that have done CPCU first, then ARM.

It does depend on your focus, if you are in underwriting, the ARM is very good, especially if you are market facing with commercial customers, especially larger accounts. Also, the ARM may be more "portable" outside of the insurance industry, should you desire to work in risk management for a non-insurance organization. ARM is very good for a loss control person, in or out of the insurance industry. The Certified Safety Professional (CSP) is even better for loss control, in or out of the insurance industry.

CPCU is a great program, but would be best applied for underwriting, claims and sales. It is very helpful for a market facing position and broker interactions. If you are with a broker, then it is good too, as it helps to show your knowledge to the carriers that you are working for.

Depends on your interest and position. Where to you want to end up? Many factors, both are great to show your interest in insurance or risk management as a career/profession, not just a job.

[scott]

There is an elitism about designations by some of us who have them.

If I meet a producer who has been in the business for fifteen years and he does not have CPCU behind his name I admit to wondering about his dedication to our craft. If a producer has been in the business ten years and does not have her CIC I also wonder.

Right or wrong we judge people based on what we know and see - at least initial impressions. (Pardon the pun.)

When I entered the business 30 years ago, I was told that the CPCU was looked upon as "the union card" of our profession. I have a built in bias too. My Dad is a CPCU.

Certainly there are some fine insurance people without CPCU and there are bums who have it. However, those who have it have passed a series of rigorous tests.

BTW, my opinion... the tests for ARM are a 7 on a 10 scale difficulty. CPCU is a 5. CIC is a 3. State licensing exams are a 2.

[hhrchevy]

With all due respect to Scott, if you have not taken a State licensing examination in the past few years don't give it a difficulty value of 2 on a scale of 10. Try a 5-7 on a scale of 10.

Many, if not most, states' exams have come up to the CPCU level. I say that because I am a facilitor for an on-line prelicensing course for P &C, and have CPCU, CIC, CLU, ACSR, and a couple more initials. I can assure you that incoming insurance producers are expected to learn much more than those coming in during the 90s and before. Add to that, the thought process needed to distinguish the right answer from the distracters (not so clear cut as previously experienced) and you have the 50% and under passing rates for first time exam candidates.

Once our students get through the course and licensed I tell them not to be afraid to take the CPCU exams because they have been exposed to that type curriculum through prelicensing.

[Victoria860]

I am in a postion where both the CPCU and ARM would be of great value to me. I currently have my ACSR & CISR. I also have the CPIW designation that is awarded by NAIW for completion of a professional designation, an NAIW program, a three year membership to the organization and industry employment for a minimum of five years. I am very proud of what I have accomplished so far.

My mom has been in the industry over 40 years and 22 of those years with the same agency. She just earned her first designation because when she first started they weren't as important as they are now. Yes she took INS courses and she's completed very old modules of CPCU. Convincing her to go after a designation took me getting one to get her going. I'm hoping we can complete CIC together, but won't hold my breath.

I guess what I am saying is everything is relitive to when you entered the industry or started on your career path. When I entered the industry full time in 1998 designations were on the rise to what they are today. And I agree the licensing exams are hard and I still remember most of what I had to learn to pass and I was lucky I passed the first time. This isn't a career choice to be taken lightly as the responsibility is huge. And all those letters after your name that we call designations begin to hold you to a much higher level of responsiblity than a newbie.

[midwest2]

You have received some very good advice on this topic. I completed the CPCU and AIM programs and also parts of the AU CLU, and ARM programs. I experienced challenges with courses in each program and found the ARM program included more new concepts/information than the others but if you have a solid background along with a good instructor/mentor you can successfully complete the program.
If the ARM program is a good fit based on your goals/desires, education, background, and current or future job duties, I suggest you move forward with the program. Like most life-long learners, you'll discover you can never learn too much in this industry. Best of luck!

[Island Girl Agent]

aloha...well, Scott, I'm sorry about your bias...but I have a different opinion. I'm an agent and I've been in the business on the agency side for 31 years. When I started, CPCU was a big deal as it was all there was. I did take all the insurance related courses (yes, I know at some level they are all related, but some way more than others) and broadened my knowledge. I did the same with CIC courses and I really felt the CPCU was more of the "ivory tower" study and CIC was "hands on" so I'd always recommend CIC first.

In response to the other comment on State licensing exams...well, in my State of Hawaii, it's all multiple choice and fairly simple "for someone who already had insurance background". I can imagine it would be tougher for someone just starting out.

Then, don't get me started on Continuing Ed online exams. (We use them a lot because we don't have much in the way of classes available on my island) Those course exams would be about 1.5 on my scale...I never even read the material, just go straight to the test...they are pretty basic.

After 31 years, I am still learning something new just about every day, that's what keeps it interesting! Which is good, because I don't think retirement is an option for a long time

[Brenda Lawhorn]

I feel that any designation you obtain is very helpful in our industry. I started out with CPCU and then began & finished the CIC designation. I have to complete the CPCU and also want to obtain the ARM designation as well. For working with clients, I feel the CIC designation is best. CPCU prepares you for dealing with underwriters and their needs. Like Victoria, I also have the CPIW as well as the DAE designations from NAIW.

I've also been told that some companies, while they want their employees to obtain the designations, don't want them to use them on business cards, correspondence, etc. as they can be view as a liability in the legal system if the agent and/or agency is every sued by a client for whatever reason. I've been in the industry over twenty years and believe you me, I've seen people with multiple designations do some pretty stupid things regarding client's coverages. Remember, at least 50% of all doctors graduated at the bottom of their class. Having a designation behind your name is no guarantee you know what you're doing.

If you have to have CE credits, why not work towards obtaining a designation and kill two birds with one stone?

[str-il]

This is developing a nice reply string with lots of good advice and insight.

I agree with Scott and Island Girl that the state exams are not as challenging as a CPCU or ARM. The state exams only required a fraction of personal time commitment in learning and preparation. I had worked on the carrier side for about 8 years, then moved to a broker and took the state exam in Illinois. With my experience and knowledge base the state exam was not very challenging. The state required prelicensing education that was mostly memorization and the exam was multiple choice and not many thought provoking scenarios, as seen in the CPCU or ARM. The prelicensing was only 2 or 3 days then I took the exam the next week and was done. The CPCU and ARM take most people a few years or more to complete. I do believe that the ARM is now multiple choice as well, but memorization alone will not get you though it. I will say that state exam was very broad and covered a very wide view, which would make it a little more challenging if you had a more focused base of experience or prior knowledge, i.e. only claims, or underwriting, or sales, or loss control.

I since moved back to a carrier and allowed my state license to expire, the renewal jumped to $280 every two years, plus required CE costs. My employer would not pick up that expense because the license is not required for my current work and I did not want to take $280 out of my own pocket. Mostly because I thought that if I needed it again in the future, it would not be that difficult to take the exam again. If it were more challenging, I would have paid the expense to keep it up to date, to avoid going through a grueling exam cycle again.

Just my opinon, based on my state's program and my experiences. Keep the posts going, open discussion is great for the industry.

[lauren]

Just a few thoughts:

I earned the CIC designation in 1980 (29 years ago- I was 6 years old at the time!) and the ARM in 1996. I also took a number of CPCU courses, but was very disappointed in both the material and caliber of instructors. I decided to not continue with the CPCU program.

I have found that the material covered by CIC is very relevant to the "real world" of insurance. I love knowing policy forms and having the ability to research coverages in a form so I can better serve my clients. The required annual updates keep me up to date on the current forms and any new coverages that may be available.

I have worked on jumbo accounts (over $1B in sales) and even then, didn't use much of what I learned in ARM. The designation however is useful when dealing with Risk Managers because it puts me on somewhat equal footing with them.

[George O'Neil]

Jeffrey,

The thread I find runnig through most of the posts above speaks to the qualitative elements of designations as well as comparison of the CPCU and ARM programs. I am a thirty-year veteran of the P&C business and a recipient of both designations. I have held positions as producer, underwriter, insurer, reinsurer, consultant and risk manager so let me offer some thoughts for your consideration.

You may want to visit the American Institute for CPCU and Insurance Institute of America website to review the program descriptions, no doubt you have already done this, however consider taking advantage of the self-inventory tool link in the educational advising section to help make an informed decision. Today access to insurance knowledge is a lot easier than in the past and the delivery options include traditional classes, self study, online class and study groups. The results are now delivered promptly with near immediate feedback compared to past decades. Twenty years ago I self studied for both programs while working full time. I then sat for the exams usually taking 2 or 3 sections each term, as at the time tests were offered only twice a year and we waited several weeks for the results.

I found each course of study helpful when dealing with new insurance challenges. Having the experience, knowledge and employing the appropriate techniques makes solving any problem, especially insurance problems a lot easier. Knowing what you don't know and when to call in other disciplines or to apply different methods is also very important. How you gain a comprehensive understanding of the business and the methods can vary. I know a number of very knowledgeable insurance practitioners that hold no designations, yet are very capable as they invested a great deal of time and effort mastering the material and researching solutions. Some of those I'm referring to hold degrees in insurance, others completed training programs with industry leaders while still others apprenticed in the business. I don't believe there is a easy way to master a profession, those that have been around a while realize elements of knowledge, understanding, experience, insight and the ability to put it all together are needed to achieve the objective. First you will want to define the objective then chart the course using the tools you have mastered, the rest will be evident.

Finally, I found that, as an independent practitioner for a small consulting firm without the backing of a “marquee” insurance organization the designation(s) were very important. The designations prompted discussion with the non-insurance community as to requirements for the designation(s). Their use also expedited discussions with other practitioners such as accounts, actuaries, lawyers, insurance professionals, etc., especially when working collaboratively. I'm sure you will make the right choice because by posing the question here and seeking advice you demonstrated an important trait, a characteristic not so common these days.