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Hello everyone,

I work for an independent agency who does not reimburse for my study materials. I am trying to start taking my CPCU designation, but looking to buy used study materials from a recent CPCU student. I have not registered for any test yet, as which course I take will depend on which study materials I can get first.

Thank you for all your help.

I plan to keep my 510 book I just purchased on July 1st. The ISBN for my text book is 9780894632846 I noticed some of these books selling on Amazon for as low as 45 dollars to 70 which includes course guide.

I would be curious if anyone has used keir or burnham books for 520 and beyond. Once I pass those courses, I have no problem selling those.

Goodluck88- I have the 510 book, but will not be completed til after 2010

Joel66 – I have the Keir 520 study book. Let's work something out. I would be open to trade material for future classes if you have any.

Maybe a GenY question… but should we start a Facebook group for used cpcu study material? I seems like something that could be useful to many. I think I’ll start one - look for it and join so we can continue talking.

prezzoo wrote:Goodluck88- I have the 510 book, but will not be completed til after 2010

Joel66 – I have the Keir 520 study book. Let's work something out. I would be open to trade material for future classes if you have any.

Maybe a GenY question… but should we start a Facebook group for used cpcu study material? I seems like something that could be useful to many. I think I’ll start one - look for it and join so we can continue talking.

that would be great, you can contact me at joelomas02 @ gmail.com

I am hoping to get 510 done by 17th. if not sept 15th latest then start on 520.

I didn’t start a group on Facebook, but I did see one group called “CPCU candidates” which is full of people across the country sharing ideas and giving feedback on study habits and tests. This group should be a great resource to get books and learn about the process of taking the classes. It appeared that some people were almost done while others were just starting.

joel66 wrote: I would be curious if anyone has used keir or burnham books for 520 and beyond. Once I pass those courses, I have no problem selling those.

I don't know anything about Keir. I do know the Burnham System and the excellent work Ray Burnham does. His books and his condition of sale specifically forbids the sale or distribution of the material beyond the original purchaser.

scott wrote:

joel66 wrote: I would be curious if anyone has used keir or burnham books for 520 and beyond. Once I pass those courses, I have no problem selling those.

I don't know anything about Keir. I do know the Burnham System and the excellent work Ray Burnham does. His books and his condition of sale specifically forbids the sale or distribution of the material beyond the original purchaser.

I would think he would have a hard time enforcing that based on the " first-sale doctrine" If that were the case, you wouldn't see companies like amazon and chegg selling and renting used books. I remember last year when I bought a used book and on the book it said that it was not allowed for resell. I checked with one of my patent attorneys and was told I had every right to sell the book, but was not allowed to make copies of the book and sell that, but was allowed to resell the book.

When you buy Burham's books you agree not to allow anyone else to use the material. We are not to be bound by our word?

Interesting (sic) ethical position.

scott wrote:When you buy Burham's books you agree not to allow anyone else to use the material. We are not to be bound by our word?

Interesting (sic) ethical position.

I think this is one reason why I will not buy those books. I am under the impression by using Code of Professional Ethics that if I buy the book and say I will not resell it, and if I do, it opens the possibility that he will file a complaint with the American Institute. Maybe not, but that's the impression I am getting from you. Using this as a way of stopping someone from reselling a book that is rightfully theirs. This seems like a unique way of going around the first-sale doctrine. Just the statement you are making is enough for me to look at other alternatives for study guides.

Please note, this is my last statement on burnam books.

After all, you have to keep the cash flow coming in! Talk about future residuals! It's like the CIC course(s) - once you get the designation, you have to keep going back to MONITOR thae class for the same amount of tuition just to keep that cash coming in....overlooking the fact that the material may be out-dated and that you are taking CE somewhere else.

Perhaps it would promote people taking the tests if the material was not in book form and downloaded instead, thus making it more affordable and encouraging more people to enter the program. CPCU is in the process of trying to update and of course their new slogan for the national meetings this year is "Embracing Change" - this would be a good way. Does the AICPCU exist to promote insurance knowledge, ethics, and the designation, or to sell books and create cost hurdles to enter the program? What a quandary.

For a binding contract, the contract must be legit. This sounds like they have created an ethical dilemma to get around the first sale doctrine. That in my opinion would negate the terms. Lots of people create funky contract stuff, its what sticks that counts. I've found judges seem to take a very dim view of people trying to manipulate others using the law.

AlstonCPCU wrote:Does the AICPCU exist to promote insurance knowledge, ethics, and the designation, or to sell books and create cost hurdles to enter the program?

It's hard to imagine an effort being made to ban potential students who fall below an arbitrary income threshold from seeking and obtaining the designation. Without the sale of books or charging fees to generate revenue, what business model would you suggest the American Institute employ? Should they look to the proposed GIO (Government Insurance Office) to support their activities?

As for the resale of intellectual material. You've spent 3-5 years going to class, studying, completing study projects, sitting for and passing various exams, and finally earning your designation. You unleash your fee-based, risk management consulting practice on the commercial community. You are met with a bit of caution, only to see your client base begin to take off when it's discovered that Levick himself could not be any more through or spot on in practice. Your clients are absolutely thrilled with you. The sky's the limit!

Five or so years into your practice, as you sit atop the profession, you begin to notice a slight drop in referrals. Your satisfied clients aren't recommending you to their peers in the numbers you've enjoyed in the past. You study the trend industry by industry and note that one industry segment seems to lagging the others. You pass it off as a fluke. Then you begin to notice that CFOs in other niche industries are beginning to drop off in their referrals - your centers of influence aren't passing your name. What's up with that?

One day, as you're out prospecting (having to cold call once again, because the referrals are quickly drying up), you come across a promising account. Later that month, during the initial interview with the firm's CFO, you are met warmly and shown a level of respect not normally experienced during a "first meet". You figure your rep is preceding you. This is confirmed in your mind, as the prospect seems to know you and your work. Heck, he's even up on the favorite phrasing used in some of your materials. You start thinking that this is going to be a sure sale, until he starts asking pointed questions to clarify a couple of points - on information you're very familiar with. Information which sounds very familiar. How....? Then you see it - peeking out from under the corner of his folder a portion of your company logo. He's managed to get a copy of your work! What? Here you thought you had a professional relationship with your clients. Now, it seems, someone has passed your work to a peer. Further investigation confirms that more than one CFO client in several of your practice's niche markets have been passing around or selling your material! Selling your material! Can you believe it!?

And so it goes. Hey, wouldn't the "first sale" doctrine apply here as well? Hmmmmm? Why hire you for your knowledge and expertise when I can purchase what you have to say to my industry for a fraction of your fee?

Now, if Burnham insists that you agree not to resell his work and you are in disagreement, don't purchase his material. Who knows, as there seems to be a fair number of students wanting to short cut the process, Cliff Notes might come out with the same material one day.

WoooHooo! You too could be a CPCU (Can't Produce, Can't Underwrite) in as little as two short years! Get your tapes and flash cards for the unbelievable low price of $429.95! But, wait!! If you order today, we will cut your investment to only 4 payments of $75.95 (plus S&H). Don't miss out on the opportunity of a lifetime to impress your family, friends, and coworkers! Start the journey to purchasing your credentials today! Do it now, before CPCU and CIC are considered one in the same. Money is awasting!

Me thinks InsMgmt has hit the nail ... and without rehashing their post...I will repeat something that I have soapboxed about before.

Our industry is constantly changing ... and growing in complexity. Their is no substitute for education and improvement/refinement of our skills. One of the best ways to do this is by using continuing education as an opportunity to grow and improve, not view it as a waste of time and look for the quickest way to get the hours!

Going back to the original posting...the agency does not seem to have an education assistance plan in place. Perhaps that is an oversight...that can be overcome by having a discussion with the owner. If he/she still says no....then perhaps the writing is on the wall that a change is needed ... and what better way to network than a CPCU or CIC course!

Luckily for me, I have my employer paying for the courses, but I can't imagine how I would have to spend the approx 2,000 to 3,500 depending on what supplemental material you purchase to further your education for AICPCU courses. As for obtaining my B.S. in Business, if my employer didn't pay for it, I still have financial aid to take care of most of it.

One of my goals after completing my graduate degree and CPCU is to start teaching the courses. I think it would be awesome for AICPCU to find a way to incorporate the testing into the cost of the books, and allow instructors at a university to teach the courses, so that way, students would have the opportunity to get financial aid grants and loans. Of course, I need to find the best method just to get past 510 lol

Joe