Farmers - your opinion

[ziiqui]

Lonestar,
You are 100% right-on!!!

[dm307799]

Lonestar leads me to believe you are from or in Texas so I am sure it hits a little closer to home but what you were referring to with your friend is the "family rights provision" and it's more clearly worded now-a-days in the agents contract(reserve & career are out the window...it's all career from the get go now). As far as the rest of those statistics, I am engaged to be married in May so do tell me, what again are the divorce statistics as of late? How about divorce stats for couples who live together prior to marriage? Yeah, so I equate your stats to marriage stats where no one would go into it thinking about failure. The tools are there & as far as entrepreneurial opportunities go, it's high high up there! They've received accolades as well, research it. I read all the previous posts dating back to 2007 before I posted my first post good sir, that is what prompted me to chime in actually. It's b/c the poster asked opinions, and I had one. As far as including the link, I felt it was a succinct way to get a bulk amount of information out versus me recapitulating using a wordy post. Time is of the essence my man!

[lonestar]

DM, statistics are important to look at, especially when making a VERY IMPORTANT financial decision that will affect you for the rest of your life. I personally received all kinds of pie in the sky "statistics" from Farmers prior to signing up as an agent years ago. 50% of all marriages end in divorce. So, one has a 50% chance of being successful in marriage, right? Those sound like great odds. Vegas does not have odds as good as this. However, a 97.5% chance of failure as a FIG agent? After getting in debt on average about $100,000? A 2.5% chance of "WINNING" as Charlie Sheen says, are not great odds.

You say that:"The tools are there & as far as entrepreneurial opportunities go, it's high high up there!"Just exactly what tools are FIG providing to the agency force, that you speak of? I can think of only a few:
1. Access to write 21st Century? No. FIG bought 21st Century with the money made off the backs of its agency force, and has it positioned as a direct competitor against the agency force. Not to mention, if the FIG agent is lucky enough to write a client's auto into Farmers away from 21st Century, the agent only gets 4% commission instead of 10%.
2. Lots of support behind the agency force? Well, you tell me. Farmers is pressuring agents to do so many auto quotes a day. If the FIG agent does not sell the quote within a few days, the customer gets a direct solicitation from...you guessed who... 21st Century!
3. Great life insurance commission? No. FIG pays 40% commission versus the industry standard of 80- to 90% commission.
4. Opportunity to "own" your own business? Not so much. The only thing the agent owns is the debt. Job security? Not so much. If a agent spends 10 years or more with Farmers, spending thousands of his / her own dollars for rent, marketing, advertising, and all of the rest of the overhead to build an agency into a renewal stream, Farmers can walk in anytime, and has, and terminate the agent with only 90 days notice. They do not need a reason for termination. And the incentive for Farmers is they can distribute this agent's policies to other newbie agents, and only pay 40% commission to the newbie.
(4% on auto and 5.6% on fire policies.)
5. A great new agency contract? Not quite. The new agency contract FIG rolled out in May of 2009 basically takes the agent's right to free speech away, among other things. If the agent speaks any ill word of Farmers, the agent can be terminated. A reason for termination: "Conduct that is disparaging...to the companies"
Since I no longer represent Farmers Insurance, I do not have a "dog in this hunt". But in the interest of being transparent, can you please disclose if you work for Farmers Insurance in any way, or a District Manager, or a recruiting center, or have an interest in promoting Farmers Insurance in any way, or are you just here to help educate the masses who wish to get into the insurance business?

You go on to say that: "They've received accolades as well, research it"
What accolades are you talking about? The Farmers university? What a joke. If you speak to any agent that has been to this so called "University", they will tell you that they are not taught anything about insurance. They teach the agent to be like a car salesman, because that is Farmers mentality at the moment.
Ok, you have justified your reason for giving a link to a Farmers recruiting site. Does Farmers pay you to do this? I have a few links of my own to share, and I do not get compensated for doing so.
Maybe the accolades you are talking about are from J D Powers? Wait a minute, no, JD Powers consistently ranks Farmers Insurance at the bottom, at a 2 out of 5 stars in 4 out of 5 categories. Research it. http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/au ... r-ratings/
How about all the complaints about Farmers Insurance? Agents, customers, adjusters all can fill you in on their experience with FIG. You may research this as well here:
http://www.farmersinsurancegroupsucks.com/index.htm
DM, a healthy, spirited exchange of information I believe is healthy, and hopefully readers of this post will see more than one point of view. Your contributions are appreciated, "brotha"

[sacman]

Lonestar is 100% accurate in his assessment of the "opportunity" with Farmers.
Sure, there are successful agents and new hires can make it. However, the odds are stacked
against you. There are other factors that are beyond your control that will play a large part in your
ability to meet the production requirements.
1) price - I would suggest to anyone considering becoming an agent to do comparision shopping first.
price life, auto, home policies against other carriers and different scenarios to determine the competiveness
and if there is a niche market you can concentrate on. Personally, I love to see someone come into my office holding Farmers policies because I KNOW I can offer them better coverages and still save them about 30%
2) policy - compare Farmers Next Gen policy with everybody else's form 3. Notice something missing? namely open
perils on coverage A & B. If you aren't explaining the difference to every customer that you transfer from form 3 to Next Gen then you are opening yourself up to an E&O claim with each sale.
Now- when I explain a form 5 (open peril on A,B &C) and can offer it for less than a Next Gen, guess who wins?
3) Agency ownership - What a load. You are NOT an agency owner. Please read the paragraph that states the contract can be voided with 90 days notice WITHOUT CAUSE. You have a lease, staff, adv, utilities etc and FIG pulls your contract, you are still on the hook for your expenses. Explain to me how you "own your own business" when another party can come into your office at any time, for any reason and close you down. Answer- You don't own ANYTHING.

I'm not telling anyone not to become a FIG agent or that you cannot be successful.
Just saying that before joining, you need to do your homework and make sure that you have all the
information to make an educated decision.

Best of luck.

[beyert1]

I have read so many comments regarding FIG. I would have to say if you are a captive agent, all of this applies. I was a captive for over 7 years. I had a built a nice book of business as well as a good reputation. I had put my heart and soul into my office and one day, it was gone. I listened while being told my premium dollars had gone down. This was no fault of mine but of the company I represented. The premiums in my area had gone much higher over a short period of time. Clients left and so I was let go. Not by any fault of my own.

I closed my doors as a captive and then opened them as an independent the next day. It took some time to rebuild but I did. My clients told me over and over again, YOU are my agent and I trust YOU, not only the insurance company. I had to quickly get appointed with companies and when I told them of my situation they were able to do so. Many of my clients were happy to switch for lower premiums and they were happy to have the same service.

I have spoken with many FIG agents and they are very unhappy, unless they are new and excited about their situation. However, this situation is not only with FIG it is with all of the captive companies. They are thinking people would rather have an "on-line" agent and not a real one. For some this is true for many this is not. I have had several clients switch to some of these "on-line" only companies only to come back to me after a short period of time. They said the few dollars extra was worth the service. Eventually the captive companies are going to realize this model is out of date and not a benefit to the client. Some areas have already done this namely in Florida. When the captives change we will see a decrease in the number of IA's because many can't handle the stress of doing business this way. It is time for this to happen. There are way too many agents out there who have no idea how to handle business unless their hands are being held. They don't know how to market properly because they have not been taught. When you are an agent you are a computer expert, marketing expert, human resources wizard and you know all the rest as well as being an agent.

I am sorry for the guys who are with FIG and can't get out as well as with all the other companies. These companies manipulate the contracts for their best interest and not of the people who bring the money in. One day you are making 15% and the next, 10%. Why, because the company said so. As an Independent I control what companies I represent and can make that determination by the commission I receive.

Good luck to you all.

[dm307799]

I do not work for Farmers & definitely not paid to post positive things regarding the company. I am on the IA side of agency operations with access to multiple E&O markets. Sales.

I do agree this was a healthy discussion & to every point, there are certainly counterpoints. 2 things I would bring up is the University & contract value.

University received accolades: http://www.farmers.com/2_10_11_TopTraining.html

Contract value...I referred to giving 10+ years before because I know you can walk away with a guaranteed buyer (Farmers) at 2x's the book value provided your PIF is at a certain (very attainable non-plateaued) level. Hard to get 2x's now-a-days, correct me if I am wrong. Or don't b/c this sometimes feels like I am not of the majority on this post & it weighs on me. Not fun anymore & very tedious. Price & claims settlement will always be an issue any where you go, but it's the relationships you forge w/ the powers to be that help you through those times! Farmers is #3 largest and they got there somehow. And I know it was on the backs of very tenured agents & yes it stings when people are cut & muscled out but it's all just business in my book...all business. There is opportunity to cross sell 21st Century accounts to life/home policies...multiple methods of marketing at play going at once...those are some of the tools I was referring to...UGH...I'm done. I just want to advocate more people for the industry & I was pleased to see what Great American & The University of Cincinnati is doing (http://www.uc.edu/News/NR.aspx?id=14815).

I will post next on - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5588

[ugottabkidding]

I am a little late to the dance here, I guess.

DM,

I note you said,

2 things I would bring up is the University & contract value.


Contract value...I referred to giving 10+ years before because I know you can walk away with a guaranteed buyer (Farmers) at 2x's the book value provided your PIF is at a certain (very attainable non-plateaued) level.

How, when the Agent Appt Agreement says the greater of 100% of the commissions for 12 months or 200 % of 6 months ( as you indicated 200% of 6 months does depend on tenure though) does that equate to 2X one year of commissions?

University received accolades

I feel reasonably qualified to address this one given 15 plus years developing and conducting insurance agent training programs and classes.

FIG most certainly would take credit for the accolades. However, having attended UoF as an agent, not once but twice, combined with my experience I respectfully point out the most overlooked aspect of this award. The article you pointed to has this paragraph,

"The University of Farmers provided a compelling, detail-rich account of how it tied its training programs to corporate strategic goals and the demonstrable changes in learner behavior, performance, and efficiency that came about as a result of that training,” said Lorri Freifeld, editor-in-chief of Training. “Likewise, despite tough economic times, Farmers continued to invest in employee development, increase the scope of its training programs, and focus on innovation—key factors in its successful integration of employees following a critical acquisition and its sweeping upgrade of core organizational IT infrastructure.”

The key, and oft overlooked comment is, key factors in its successful integration of employees following a critical acquisition and its sweeping upgrade of core organizational IT infrastructure.

The U of F is NOT a stand alone agent training facility. In fact there is almost ZERO training for agents at the facility. There is OH SO MUCH education though. And I assure you there is a precise difference between training and education. Agents are provided ideas, successes, system outlines, and good lunches. The lunch does not go back to the agency though. The educated agent is returned to the agency and his/her district and is expected to be this well-oiled machine upon return. The percentage of District Managers and hired teams equipped with the skills and personnel to support the education received at U of F is less than 5%. Simply put, the District Office of almost every agent cannot tell you what is done at U of F nor can they train the agent to use the education. The percentage of DM and DM staff that actually go into the field and assist an agent in learning to be a successful agent is I believe to be single digit as well. To make anyone believe that U of F is an award winning facility for agent training is a mockery to the training industry itself.

On the other hand, the claim aadjuster training facility there is EXACTLY THAT an adjuster training facility. It is state of the art, high class, and it is specifically that aspect that creates the awards for FIG. Any organizational evaluator considering FIG for an award can only be impressed by what they see in the claims part of the facility. And, this comment,

“Likewise, despite tough economic times, Farmers continued to invest in employee development, increase the scope of its training programs, and focus on innovation—key factors in its successful integration of employees following a critical acquisition and its sweeping upgrade of core organizational IT infrastructure.”

supports what I say. The very last thing FIG would ever allow to be published is a statement that leads the general public to believe the FIG agency force is an "employee". Claim adjusters are employees. When they refer to acquisition they refer to Bristol West and 21st Century. And I am confident the claim adjuster force for those companies are part of the FIG training programs as they pass through the facility either as new or for being educated to FIG procedures.

SO DM

let me say this, if Contract Value and U of F are the two main racks for hanging your hat, you have made a severe overlook of what the issues really are and hung your own hat on two misconceptions either misinterpreted by you or promoted by FIG.

If one could actually take a mass poll across FIG Captive force and the results published anonymously the opinion (keeping with the purpose of this forum) of the sales force, me included, would be a below average insurance company in agent training, agent deferred compensation, marketing, pricing, and management (especially sales management). I understand the value of sometimes being in the minority but on the wrong side of the facts and with the minority is where you are.

[FFA]

Once again, no mention of FIGS loyalty to their long time clients. 35% lower auto rates to new business. When the agent tries to get their existing business the lower new business rates, they get reprimanded.

[ugottabkidding]

FFA

forgive me when I say, WHAT??????????

[dm307799]

At this point I'd like to hear from Sundance...the orig poster. How she feels about the #3 P/C carrier with high AM best ratings owned by the largest financial services firm in the world offering an agent program with a fully forgivable subsidy as support & a lot of hand holding along the way teaching a consultative selling approach & investing unprecedented amounts of capital into a clear goal of doubling the company's size by 2020.

[ugottabkidding]

DM

the #3 P/C carrier with high AM best ratings owned by the largest financial services firm in the world

And Allstate is #2 and I don't recall a lot of "hub bub" about career seekers racing to their program. You are suggesting that AM Best Ratings and being a Zurich Acquistion who sucks the money from FIG at the sacrifice of the consumer's premium and the agent force's income is a high ranking reason for a career decision. If the original poster is still considering a career I doubt they would be choosing FIG in 2012. Why would someone choose a career with a company that is languishing in consumer law suits (Hey, they just lost a 3/4 BILLION over management fee overcharges and poor oversight by FIG).

So if one wants to use ratings as a career decision-maker, lets add to YOUR list...

* In 2003, Consumer Reports rated Farmers Insurance Homeowners "Worse" for both "Problems with Claim" and "Delayed Payments".

* The 2006 American Customer Satisfaction Index conducted by the University of Michigan found that customer satisfaction with Farmers was at exactly the same level as the overall Property and Casualty Industry. In addition, Farmers' satisfaction level was the most improved from 2005 to 2006 among the companies surveyed.

* In March 2006, Consumer Reports considered Farmers Insurance one of the "poorest performers" amongst 27 insurance companies in terms of paying off (auto) claims in 30 days or less.

* In the JD Powers 2007 Collision Repair Satisfaction Study, which covered customers surveyed between 2001 and 2004, Farmers Insurance received the lowest possible ratings in all four of the studied categories: "Overall Experience", "Claim Settlement", "Claim Representative" and "Claim Process and Procedures". Of the 26 companies surveyed, Farmers was tied for 20th place.

* In 2005, 2006, and 2007 Farmers Insurance Group won the J.D. Power award for Call Center Customer Service Excellence.

* In 2008 Bristol West had a complaint ratio of 3.42 while the national median was 1.0 according to the NAIC.

offering an agent program with a fully forgivable subsidy as support

I am beginning to believe you are the FIG PR Company with that spin.

First, and foremost, the word subsidy is a misnomer. It is NOT a subsidy; it is a loan. And I would suggest less than 15% of all agents making it to the point of subsidy/loan eligibility actually qualify for forgiveness of payback. The problem actually is the chance of attaining the waiver. Failure to attain the waiver is one of the biggest reasons agents reach the 2-year mark and hit the proverbial financial disaster wall. They make just enough money to eek out an existence and BAM, FIG hits them with a payback that puts the agent underwater in monies. A friend who works in a bankruptcy court indicated there are more FIG agents in personal bankruptcy than all the other major insurance companies combined. You can bet the subsidy/loan program you hint at being a perk is at the heart of that statistic.

a lot of hand holding along the way

Yes, that is probably true; the friends and families of the typical new FIG agent do hold their hands while they lament the fact they have failed miserably. And one of the chants during this lament is how little the district staff and district manager and company care about helping the agent. I know of one DM who boldy boasts, "Our job is to find you, get you started, and then we are available as a consultant should you need us." If there is any hand holding by FIG it is more likely to be the Company holding out its hand asking for more money. I am FIG experienced enough to know that less than 10% of the District Offices are prepared, and set up, to provide legitimate support and training. Most DM today can't spell sell, let alone support a sales force under their leadership.

teaching a consultative selling approach

They DO NOT TEACH; I don't want to repeat the story of U o F. They offer a consultative approach, yes. But teach? Please give the readers a break. The District Office is the supposed "training ground" for new agents. I have participated in enough "district training meetings" to unequivacably say, they DO NOT TEACH consultative sales approaches. They teach Dashboard System, policy rating, and little more. Most district teams can't spell life insurance; the support team of the company cannot teach life products. And now you want the world to believe there is a TAUGHT consultative approach? Please find those qualified to teach it then I might listen.

investing unprecedented amounts of capital into a clear goal of doubling the company's size by 2020

Now that is an interesting fact that is probably true. BUT, and notice that is a big but, that capital is NOT devoted to the customer OR the sales force. It is the purchase of companies that will get them there. Please, let's not lead a perspective career agent down the path that FIG has all this money being poured into helping agents earn money. If that were a good thing for agents, don't you think they would have access to 21st Century programs in some fashion? That 21st Century capital investment was monies spent from the pockets of customers, and agents, to do nothing more than assist FIG in meeting a growth promise it made to Zurich 5 years earlier. Please DM307799, alert the world when you see that it is actual SALES that are creating FIG growth, not capital investment that benefits NO NEW AGENT.

OKAY DM307799, how about telling me more reasons someone should consider being FIG as a career choice.

[ugottabkidding]

Sounds like a cliche`, but this isn't for me, however it is refreshing to read a bit of positive, I wasn't sure what to tell her at this point...hated to just go in with negativs.

BTW DM307799

if you notice this post, SUNDANCE's friend made the decision quite time time ago.

I think lonestar and I are just trying to help the future as you are. The issue is probably, which future looms for most who take the plunge of a FIG Agent career?

[FFA]

When the Bristol People took over, they introduced a "New Platform" that came up with lower rates. Maybe the Bristol people took over programing and that alone lowers the rates.
One thing seems to escape people here, no matter where you go for your start in this business, its not easy. everyone bashing in FIG - look through the Agencies for Sale listing in the I/J. Lots and lots of Allstate agencies for sale. Hear same complaints from my Am Fam friends. Country Mutual - Quotas pretty high for the financial products. Most agents cant make it. Fact is that with all my Captive friends, the only ones that dont complain is State Farm.
All the captive carriers seem to be heading into some direct channel like Cent 21. Allstate just bought E Surance. Only State Farm seems to value the agent anymore.

[lonestar]

The fact that there is such a disproportionate number of current & ex Farmers agents overwhelmingly recommending people to NOT go with this company, versus Allstate, State Farm, Nationwide agents stating the same about their respective companies, should speak volumes about the so called "opportunity". Wonder why? (only sound heard at this time is the sound of crickets chirping...)

[justthere]

Ok- I have been with Farmers for 21 years. Some have been really good and some have been really ugly. I have been very fortunate to be very successful. That, however, is due to the fact that I am a commercial agent. I wrote more commercial polices last year than auto or home. I found over the years that nobody bothers you if you make them money. By being in this position, I can leave a message for anybody high up in Farmers and I will get a response. That being said, I honestly do not think that I would be able to recommend Farmers as a career to anybody at this time. It was hard enough to get traction under the old contract. I cannot see how anybody can succeed under the new one. Obviously, there are some doing it but they are few and far in between. The only way you can sell Farmers' products right now is to concentrate on Commercial. My own statistics for 2011 bear this out: my closing ratio on personal auto was a whopping 7%, 31% on Homeowners and 40% on commercial and comp. It works for me but selling only commercial as a newbie under the new contract will get you fired because you are not completing the other requirements. You also cannot sell outside and this is crucial for commercial producers. Now this is in my area. If you are in Michigan or Illinois where they are just killing on the auto and home rates right now, it can work. But in California, my answer would be to go the IA route. My two cents.