For the life of me, I can’t understand why this is such a big deal. Make it the law of the land and be done with it. Then we can all move on to more important issues of the day. It’s ridiculous.
I’d rather there be no law about it. Walk entirely away from it. Leave it to the churches, social organizations, individuals, sects, etc. For marriage, let people do whatever they wish as long as it doesn’t hurt others.
Well, if you want government involved, you may not like the result, much like yo don’t like the fax that it is not allowed in most states. And who describes it as a “legal institution”?
Nope, not everybody, not I for one. You better re-read that article you posted Libby. It doesn’t state it’s a legal institution, but can have legal aspects and typically is legally recognized.
And you choose wikipedia to back your statements over the Word of God? That’s troubling when you claim to believe in God.
February 19, 2014 at 2:46 pm
Libby says:
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God has an opinion on whether marriage is a legal institution? Of course it’s legal, you twit. You have to obtain a license, someone appointed by the state has to do the service, and you have to legally terminate it for it to end. Which part of legal do you not understand?
What would you call it?
February 19, 2014 at 3:28 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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It’s not a “legal institution”. There have been marriages before governments and marriages long after current governments pass.
My marriage is a vow to my spouse, before God as a witness.
February 19, 2014 at 4:02 pm
Libby says:
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Then it’s not legal and your “wife” is not entitled to all rights under the law. She won’t be able to direct your medical care or decide your funeral arrangements. You should have made it legal, pal.
February 19, 2014 at 6:44 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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Yes, I have all the paperwork to have the marriage _recognized_ by the government. The point is that marriage in and of itself, is not always a legal institution, which is what you originally stated.
February 20, 2014 at 8:09 am
Libby says:
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No papers, no marriage. Period. Otherwise, gays could be “married” without the paperwork. You’re splitting hairs anyway. It can be religious, but not necessarily, but it is always legal.
February 20, 2014 at 10:18 am
Get your facts straight says:
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Sorry, but that’s your take on it, not mine, and not I suspect many others.
They have the paperwork without the marriage. I believe its called a “civil union”. So there’s a precedent for the two being separate.
February 20, 2014 at 9:28 am
Mike says:
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You’re conflating Holy Matrimony with Marriage.
Holy Matrimony is up to the churches and the individuals. Marriage is a contract between two people that is recognized by the government. There would be no marriage if there were no contract, it would only be Holy Matrimony.
People may be confusing those two, but IMO the government doesn’t need to be recognizing anything. Why exactly do we need government to recognize marriage? For what? Tax benefits? For power of attorney and relate powers? other financial benefits? If you don’t think that people could do those things (and did before) without government recognized marriage being involved you are not thinking it through hard enough. Having government have the final say in who is entitled to perks through marriage is only letting the government get involved and more control over people/voters, they are in no way necessary.
I don’t disagree LiveFree, but until that changes everyone should be entitled to equal protection under the law.
February 20, 2014 at 4:53 pm
LiveFree says:
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Libby I completely agree. Equal protection under a law should be a standard virtue. But to me this movement in particular just leaves me wanting, though admittedly I am not gay so I am not directly effected, I understand why a gay individual would be passionate about this topic. But to me (prepare for analogy rant)it is like putting the cart before the horse, or treating a symptom and not the disease, or putting a Band-Aid on a cannon ball wound, or setting up a computer when you have no internet.
To say the law as it stands now is unfair/unjust is absolutely correct but the bigger issue is that the law exists for anyone (this case law meaning government sanctioned marriage). I would be more apt to take up arms with the gay community in this fight for equality if they were more able to see the government is causing (and capitalizing on)this problem of inequality and should not be the means to fix it.
February 20, 2014 at 9:27 am
Mike says:
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Talk to the fundamentalist religionists in this country and to the politicians that they control. Those are the people that are preventing this from going forward.
The government probably needs to get out of the marriage licensing business. All the incentives and disincentives to be married or single should be removed. We should all be treated equal if we are married to a member of the opposite sex, maried to a member of the same sex or single. Whoever gets married should sign some kind of civil contract outlining the responsibilities of raising and supporting children, visitation rights, life/death decisions, separation of assets in the event of a dissolution, etc. I suppose the goverrnment needs to remain involved in decisions about support of children conceived out of wedlock as somebody needs to watch out for the most vunerable out there, but this marriage thing I think is time to step away from. Of course this will probably lead to polygamy, marrying your cousin, sibling, child, parent or possibly animals, but such is the path we’ve gone down. I really don’t care who people marry, I just don’t want anybody to get special treatment or be discrmibnated against for their choice whatever it may be.
After all, think about it, the former has a stick and the latter a plug so you can’t have two persons with the stick because you know, it wouldn’t work would it.
They both have a stick and a plug, Einstein. And don’t act like men and women don’t engage in some of the same sex acts that gay people do. You guys have hang-ups.
That is irrelevant. Don’t lower yourself to that type of argument.
It’s also a gross way of looking at life:
HEY!! Straight people have anal sex too!
Do you really want to be that person?
February 20, 2014 at 10:51 am
Libby says:
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His words, Bob, not mine.
February 20, 2014 at 11:41 am
bob says:
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Your choice to hold on to them, and attempt to make a valid argument of it.
February 20, 2014 at 12:45 pm
Libby says:
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Not at all. I was showing him that his analagy was inaccurate.
February 19, 2014 at 1:20 pm
Captain Planet says:
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So in order to get married, you need to have a penis enter a vagina? What about the elderly male + female combo that meets and wants to get married, but never intends to have a sexual relationship? I guess they can’t get married, either.
You can be religious. And you can be accepting of gay behaviors. The two do not conflict, as you and Libby actually show. I actually tend to think that when this debate goes up the conservatives area actually less consistent than the two of you (my first compliment to you guys) but you’re still picking and choosing what to listen to in dangerous ways that leave you in charge of what’s what.
To Planet: You can’t be religious Christian (quoting sections of the bible as you have) and say that Jesus/the bible said nothing about homosexuality, without disregarding certain people who supposedly wrote the books of the bible (Peter specifically, who later said do you not know that neither the adulterers, sexually immoral, or those who participate in gay sex will make it in to heaven), which ruins the credibility of the whole book (We are talking the central character in the bible, barring Jesus, considering Jesus told this man that Peter was rock, and on this rock he made his church, and the jaws of death would never prevail against it. This was transference of authority. So if Peter said people who had gay sex were going to hell, that is as good as Jesus saying it. If you don’t believe Peter was a valid point in the bible, the whole bible is potentially wrong and you can’t use it in quoting like you have to date as a valid argument which you have.) You see others as the Zealots for following the book according to the book’s wants (scripture), I see you as the Zealot for re-writing the book according to your wants. It is far more dangerous to take control over potential zealotry and leave it in your hands than to leave it with the book. The book already says let he with sin cast the first stone. It also says that a you shall not condemn someone for something you do least god hold it to you. It’s good words overall. Even though it says gay behavior will get you in hell it gives you every opportunity to be in good graces with God.
Now I really shouldn’t be going over this because I’m more agnostic…But really, you claim yourself a Christian…And you really just are a control freak. You want control over what is Godly. I don’t. It’s part of why I’m not Christian.
February 20, 2014 at 3:37 pm
KY jw says:
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Hey, bob, that’s a pretty good post. I also noticed your comment to Libby. Thanks for being nice. I’m worried that if I read the comments I’ll descend into the unprofessional behaviour like many others. So, thanks for staying on the high road.
February 20, 2014 at 3:41 pm
KY jw says:
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BTW, I haven’t read any other posts. Two pleasant posts from you, bob, made me happy, so I’m going to bail now. ;-)
February 20, 2014 at 6:36 pm
bob says:
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KY JW:
I’m trying. This became a venting area for me after some seriously traumatic things happened to me.
My fathers death was not the only one. After my father’s death I have mentioned my mother practically lives with me to take care of my niece. I have not mentioned she’s an extreme hoarder (think the show) that after my dad died the house was robbed, and she still hasn’t cleaned it up, and she let the whole thing go to heck, and is now hoarding in my house. She has filled a closet to the top! My sister doesn’t seem to mind that her kid is screaming and smacking walls and throwing controllers in my house, and it’s influencing my daughter, and my mother thinks it’s ok to leave Atenolol on the ground, and broken christmas ornaments etc. It has been hell!
Oh and if I crack pretty soon my wife was having a sexting affair, and I actually had to keep her calm about my knowing. She says she’s sorry about it, but whenever I show I’m upset at all, she says some boo hoo story about how she should just leave. Not what I need to hear when we have two kids.
I have not had a good few years!
February 21, 2014 at 8:29 am
KY jw says:
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Crap!
bob, I’m stunned. I had no clue your buckets are overflowing. (Not long ago, the director had a pep talk about people dealing with things from inside and outside the department. His analogy was overflowing buckets.) My overflow has calmed considerably in the past month.
I can relate to the parental unit going off the deep end. My dad’s dementia is really bad and now my mother is going down that road. I never expected to be my parents’ caregiver. My mom was always my rock. It’s really difficult to adjust. She’s not hoarding like you’ve described, but she’s not keeping their house picked up.
I know it’s none of my business, but if you’re niece is misbehaving in your house, you should correct her. Children learn by example and it’s very difficult to overcome a bad example. My children are mostly grown, so I actually do understand that. I have a young granddaughter and she behaves in my house. It’s not an easy fix, though. I will tell you, correcting someone else’s kid can get ugly. However, your sanity is what you and your children need.
Speaking of sanity, I’m not going to advise you on your marriage. That’s a lot to deal with and I can’t imagine how to help.
I’ve always been impressed with your intelligence, so I’m sure you’ll find a solution. Good luck! I really do hope you’ll be ok. I may not agree with you very often, but I would miss you if you weren’t posting here.
February 21, 2014 at 12:14 pm
Bob says:
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KY JW: What makes it worse is we just had our second kid a month ago, and due to her pregnancy depression I did a lot in the months she was doing the sexting to help her attitude. Date nights, sought out other parents with children so she could have a break from the kids at home, bought a second car which we needed, but made it her own personal choice as to which (I just negotiated price) and found things we could do together romantically and just normal days. I really thought I was doing a good job. Apparently not. I’m one of those guys who does quite a lot in my life. I also took two weeks off to stay at home and took care of both the kids while she recovered which was certainly hard. And through all of this, I haven’t even told her that I think less of her because of what she did. It is why I get so mad when people make assumptions of what type of man I am in regards to women.
For my niece: I try to correct her all that I can, but my sister is violent with my niece, and the father is absent. My niece is about 5, and she acts like a toddler due to it. Anytime Heidi accidentally does something, my sister hits her. For example she once tried to sit on my sister’s lap, and my sister hit her because it hurt. And it was out of nowhere to the kid. She does this often. My niece goes crazy from lacking attention from her mother, and she gets it by doing those things.
We’ve tried time outs, talking to her, and we’ve tried restraining. While I’m ticked off at my wife, she is extremely good with kids since she works in the system. We’ve tried many things, and even though my niece progresses it is only to a point without her mother and father. The kiddo practically lives with me, and was left for me for several weeks around christmas and new years. I wasn’t even asked, she was just dropped off. I still remember my niece asking on new year’s “When is my mom coming back?”.
It is heart breaking. I love the kid. But she’s also a nightmare.
Regarding the wife: I just don’t understand, she seemed to completely not be the type who would do what she did. I have basically just pretended it didn’t happen. When I say I show I’m upset about it, I mean something as simple as blanking out for a second will make my wife get emotional. It’s one of those “you think I’m horrible things”. Sometimes being emotionally unstable can be worse than being mean spirited.
February 21, 2014 at 12:51 pm
KY jw says:
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bob, I am surprised you’re as together as you are, now. I wish I could tell you something that could help with your niece (or your wife). It breaks my heart when people hurt their children. The physical is bad enough, but the emotional scars are worse. I can’t imagine your niece has any understanding of what’s happening. To her it’s probably just pain or abandonment. Neither of which a child should have to endure. My heart goes out to you both.
I don’t know if anything I say would be helpful at all with your marriage. I will say sometimes no matter how much you love someone, you still want to hurt them. You may not even realize that’s what you’re doing until it’s too late. It doesn’t make sense – there’s no reason or event that triggers it. It’s probably some passive-aggressive need to test boundaries and make your partner prove their love. (being a raging passive-aggressive myself, I can say this from experience)
February 21, 2014 at 1:57 pm
Bob says:
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You nailed it, she’s passive aggressive. But she isn’t horrible, as I’m sure you aren’t either.
I handle it well in my personal life. If I’m ever angry I debate here, and practice dealing with confrontation in debates where I hold my strongest opinions with varying levels of success. Better practicing here than talking about my strongest opinions on what my wife did to start and resulting in a fight. For us I do different things, I don’t believe that negative aspects or conversations about what you believe someone did wrong helps. So instead, I find things to do like a game of truth or dare (semi adult version) but I play in the persona of my hand. It is hilarious. My right hand I have made into a face since the beginning of our relationship and he does things that are us things with songs, our kids, etc. She does the same. For example it asked what would you name an adult movie about our intimate life and I said “HAND tonio Banderas!” in a high pitched seductive voice. Or “Lick a message on to me” And I have my hand give her an awkward look, and lick her arm spelling out “HI!!!!” (the hand is supposed to be ADD)
I’m really not at all how I come across here. And Bah. She really was something special to me. This is going to be a hard road to recovery.
February 21, 2014 at 4:45 pm
KY jw says:
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:) I’m working on the not being horrible thing. Some days, I don’t quite get there. Not sure why my husband puts up with me. Something that works on me (in moderation!) is calling me on my shit. The catch is NOT doing it when I’m beyond caring. :p
February 21, 2014 at 5:31 pm
Bob says:
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KY JW:
Oh boy howdy that starts things down hill in my experience, not just with my wife.
My younger brother used to tell me the psychological reasons why when he was still in college. I didn’t use to agree with him. I thought only by calling someone out could you fix something. Then I realized half the time you make them feel like crap and they get destructive rather than fix it, and the other time they reject what they did, and you for saying it. It’s a no win scenario!
February 24, 2014 at 7:24 am
KY jw says:
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bob, you’re right, it can get very ugly. If you need help interpreting passive-aggressive speak, let me know. ;)
February 24, 2014 at 11:14 am
Libby says:
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Bob – it sounds like your wife might be suffering from some depression that could be related to her pregnancy. Maybe some couple’s counseling would help you both. Her to get over her guilt (which can stand in the way of your relationship as much as your anger.) And you for your anger and feelings of betrayal. I will keep you in my prayers.
February 24, 2014 at 12:08 pm
bob says:
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KY JW:
You’ve done enough. Part of the problem is I hadn’t told anyone. I don’t want my family thinking lower of her.
I feel a little odd this is where I let that out. But your commentary has helped if even just for the sake of you being a passive aggressive person and I didn’t get into a fight with you just now!
February 24, 2014 at 12:09 pm
bob says:
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Libby,
Thanks. I imagine you aren’t how you sometimes come off on this site either.
February 24, 2014 at 2:39 pm
KY jw says:
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bob said “just for the sake of you being a passive aggressive person and I didn’t get into a fight with you just now!”
That gets an LOL! Sometimes strangers (and this place if full of strange people) are the best to unload on. I’ll try to keep that in mind next time you don’t like what I have to say. ;-)
February 24, 2014 at 2:47 pm
Libby says:
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My husband tends to be passive-aggressive. What’s helped is talking about outside of the moment, at a time when we are both calm and in a good place. Then we don’t get angry and I am able to explain my position and he his. It helps for the next time it happens. I either let it go, respond to it, or smile and say “There you go again!” Half the time we end up laughing about it – the other half not! LOL!
February 24, 2014 at 3:37 pm
bob says:
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You know Libby, that actually sounds like my wife and I.
Interesting we have more in common than I initially thought.
February 24, 2014 at 3:42 pm
Libby says:
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I think most people do when they take the time to find out.
February 24, 2014 at 6:30 pm
bob says:
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JW:
I thought you would find that wording funny :)
Just as a random side note:
The reason I didn’t want my family knowing is that she is very very liked by them.
My father said we were the best couple he had ever seen before he died. I used to hum random 80’s songs and she would without realizing it be doing the same song/thing in another room in the house. My brother would just say in between rooms “Hey, are you guys aware you’re humming the same 80’s song??”. My dad was very happy for me as well as my family. I would hate to ruin the whole family integration I have had with her.
February 25, 2014 at 8:01 am
KY jw says:
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It sounds like you still love her, bob. Which, actually, is a good thing. You’ll figure it out, and so will she. It’s just going to be an adventure! Good luck, I mean that most sincerely. :-)
What about our friends in Utah? One man + one woman + another woman + another woman + another woman. What about Sultry Sarah P + One Michigan Basketball player + one Michigan basketball player + one Michigan basketball player + one Michigan basketball player + one Michigan basketball player. Pretty fab isn’t it?
God didn’t create it. There’s a difference between God doing something and God allowing something to happen. Man has perverted God’s intention for marriage to be one man and one woman.
Jack, you just can’t stand the thought of 2 guys nailing it, can you?
Also – when did Jesus talk about homosexuality?
Oh, and separation of Church and State.
Oh, and according to The Word – no shellfish, no tattoos, and no mixing of fabrics! It may be tempting to be stylish while awaiting your Red Lobster Special, but it’s against God’s will.
Advocate – Jesus wasn’t in the old testament. Read Captain’s post. He said when did JESUS talk about homosexuality? Not the bible.
February 20, 2014 at 2:00 pm
Captain Planet says:
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Also, Devil’s Advocate, Leviticus is where you will find God’s Law against shellfish and fabric crossing, too. Still going to order crab legs while wearing and outfit which is not all made of the exact same fabric material? If you do, I say you shouldn’t get married!
February 20, 2014 at 4:10 pm
Devil's Advocate says:
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Captain Planet, you apparently didn’t read the link I supplied about Leviticus. I am well aware that this is the book that prohibits eating shellfish and wearing mixed fabric, etc. The link I supplied provides the explanation as to WHY some religious people (some, not all) feel those particular prohibitions applied only to ancient Israel but not to anyone else, while the prohibitions against sexual immorality, including homosexuality, apply to all people in all times. Not saying I agree with that, mind you, just saying that’s a link that gives an explanation about it so you understand, even if not agree with, what they believe and WHY they believe it. (That’s where being a “devil’s advocate” comes into play.). That’s why using that book as a “gotcha” doesn’t work. It isn’t that some people are so stupid that they aren’t aware they themselves are violating teachings found in the Bible; it’s that they believe some of the prohibitions in Leviticus do not apply anymore, and some still do, and the link gives the explanation for that. Please kindly read it and don’t just look at the title and think you know what it says. Thank you.
Yes, God created everything, and when he did so, all was perfect as he planned. It was only after mankind chose to ignore God’s plan that everything began to deteriorate.
February 18, 2014 at 4:35 pm
Libby says:
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You can not ignore God’s plan. He’s God for crying out loud.
February 18, 2014 at 5:15 pm
Connie says:
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Yes, you can ignore God’s plan. If God says “do not lie,” and people lie, that’s ignoring God’s plan. If God says, “do not commit adultery,” and people cheat on their spouses, that’s ignoring God’s plan. If God says “do not steal,” and I take something that doesn’t belong to me, that’s ignoring God’s plan. It’s called “free will” and it happens all the time. He’s God, but He doesn’t force us to follow His plan.
February 18, 2014 at 5:19 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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Yes, you can ignore it. God created mankind with the ability to choose. It’s called free will. Something God did create.
You are exercising it now in your support for same-sex marriage.
February 19, 2014 at 9:18 am
Libby says:
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There’s no such thing as free will. If God is everything, then everything is God. I don’t presume to know God’s plan for me, but I have faith in Him. God doesn’t make mistakes.
February 19, 2014 at 9:32 am
Perplexed says:
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Libby, your comments about God are telling. They indicate a lack of knowledge that can only be found in His word. It is a wonderful thing to understand His purpose with this earth. I implore you to examine the scripture. Nothing can replace it. He has outlined a plan with this earth that will utimately end in Him being all and in all. If we want to have a chance to reflect His character we can only do it on His terms.
February 19, 2014 at 10:32 am
Libby says:
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Perplexed – Please try to get out of the Middle Ages. God didn’t write anything. Man did.
And how pompous of you to think only Christians have an inside track to God’s thoughts and desires. I’m glad you find faith in the scripture, but for me it’s just a book.
I don’t presume to know what God thinks or wants. He is large-and-in-charge and I just need to do my best to honor him every day. And I do that by treating others how I would like to be treated. And that includes gay people.
February 19, 2014 at 10:44 am
Connie says:
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There’s no such thing as free will? Really? Are we all robots then? And it’s all part of God’s plan? We can see in the world around us right and wrong, good and evil. Is murder, robbery, violence, war, not an indication of humans acting outside of God’s will? Surely those things wouldn’t be God’s plan, and they sure seem to be grievous mistakes made by humans. As for Christians being pompous, it was Jesus himself who said “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me.” We’re only telling others what He said. He wasn’t being pompous because He backed it up with His life, death, and resurrection. “God is everything” doesn’t make sense; God MADE everything, but he is OUTSIDE of everything he made the same way the author of a book or the painter of a painting is OUTSIDE of the book or the painting.
February 19, 2014 at 11:12 am
Libby says:
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You have a very shallow image of God. I would encourage you to delve deeper in to the spirituality of Him. He is not some Man sitting up on a cloud in the sky looking down on us. He is within us.
And I will say it again for the third time. I do not presume to know God’s plan. Bad things happen for reasons we do not know and may never know. But I know God has a reason for them, because I trust Him. I have a very strong faith and as I said before God doesn’t make mistakes.
My opinion, not saying I’m right and you’re wrong. That is just my belief and you will not sway me as I will not sway you from your old-fashioned view of God.
February 19, 2014 at 1:18 pm
Perplexed says:
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Libby, Sounds as if you and Oprah Winfrey worship the same god. Yourself.
Unless He appeard to you in a vision, which hasn’t happened for hundreds of years, then you are speaking of something you don’t know anything about. The only way to know or “honor” Him as you say you do, is to read His word to find out how to honor Him. Unless one does that one cannot hope to serve Him in any facet of their lives.
February 19, 2014 at 1:27 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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How do you delve into God’s spirituality when you dismiss his Word as “just a book”? You are correct when God didn’t physically write it, but he did inspire the words through men.
You don’t know God’s plan because you have made the decision disregard what he has told you. We are not given the specifics for our individual lives, but his plan is plain to see if you take the time to look.
You say to have faith, but you have misplaced it in yourself.
February 19, 2014 at 2:54 pm
Libby says:
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Both of you are so far off the mark, it’s laughable. I have no faith in myself, only in my God.
You say the Bible, written by man, was inspired by God. Well, so was the Torah and the Koran and the Mona Lisa, and on and on and on.
You both are very narrow-minded. God is everywhere and in everything. Good and bad. Happy and sad. Because that is the nature of God.
I am happy with my relationship with God and am happy you are with yours. The difference is, I’m not sanctimonious about it and you are.
February 19, 2014 at 6:59 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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Narrow-minded? How do you figure? Because we don’t agree with you? I’m open to listening to others and discussing their ideas. You have yet to offer a valid argument that refutes what I believe. So far, you’ve offered opinions, but nothing to base it on. If you can offer a source other than, “that’s how I feel”, then please do so.
February 20, 2014 at 8:17 am
Libby says:
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Of course it’s my opinion. That’s all it is for all of us. You can’t prove your opinions any more than I can mine. That is why they are opinions and not facts.
And yes, narrow-minded. “How do you delve into God’s spirituality when you dismiss his Word as “just a book”?” is a narrow-minded statement. It IS a book and you have no “proof” that it is God’s word, as it was written by man. It may have been inspired by someone’s ideas and faith in Jesus, but you have yet to prove he is anything other than a man. You have only your faith, belief, and, yes, opinion. And I have mine.
February 20, 2014 at 10:32 am
Get your facts straight says:
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Wrong again. I have a text recognized by millions to be fact. And before you say it, yes, it’s also debated by millions that it’s not. However, I have a basis outside of my opinion for my statements. You however, do not.
The proof is in the Bible itself. There is not one thing in the Bible that has proven to be false. In fact, it validates historical events that are recorded in other artifacts. The Bible states it is the Word of God, so if it is not proven false, then there is only one option left.
February 20, 2014 at 10:39 am
Libby says:
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WTF??? I say it’s not fact, but someone’s version of the facts. You can’t prove the bible is anything other than a book written by a few men. You BELIEVE it is the word of God. Your belief does not make it fact.
There are just as many other people that believe their religion is fact. But you so-called “Christians” are so arrogant that YOU have all the answers. That’s why you all make me sick.
February 20, 2014 at 1:30 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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You say its versions of facts, but a version of a fact doesn’t change that the underlying fact.
You used wikipedia before, so I’ll use that now. “A fact is something that has really occurred…”. I say the events in the Bible actually occurred. They have been verified by other historical documents that have been found.
And no, I can’t prove the Bible is the Word of God, that is faith. But yet, you cannot disprove that either, so at least consider its possible.
I do not have all the answers, but I do have a place to find them. You can find them too, if you’d take the time.
February 20, 2014 at 2:33 pm
Libby says:
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I have taken the time and I am strong in my faith, as you are in yours. I was without faith for many, many years. Now that I have found what I can grasp onto and believe, it gives me great comfort. I do not need to read the bible, koran, or any other document to find peace or answers. I am perfectly content in my faith and ask that you respect that as I will respect yours.
February 20, 2014 at 1:19 am
stan James says:
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your type said the same thing about inter-racial marriage
No, my “type” has nothing against inter-racial marriage.
February 20, 2014 at 10:41 am
Libby says:
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Your type did 50 years ago. Your type will soon get over gay marriage, too. You’ll just have to agonize over it for 50 years. What do you care what other people do with their lives when it has no affect on yours? Sanctimonious turd.
February 20, 2014 at 1:39 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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You know nothing about my “type”. You are placing me into a stereotype which you think is true for everyone who claims to be Christian. The sad truth is not everyone who claims to be Christian really are, and that is causing your confusion.
What they do does have an affect on my life. Everyones actions can affect others in ways they refuse to recognize. For me, it means we as a nation are rejecting God. Society is degenerating and this is only one of the symptoms.
February 20, 2014 at 9:31 am
Mike says:
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There is no god and perversion the way you use the word only means my fictional sky king told me that it was icky.
You should be ridiculed for having such stupid beliefs.
If you do not believe there is a God, then why bother to refute what others believe?
February 20, 2014 at 10:42 am
Libby says:
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You refute what I believe because it’s not in line with your beliefs. Why can’t he do the same?
February 20, 2014 at 1:42 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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I never said he could not do so. I merely asked why he bothered. I refute your beliefs because I am told to bring the truth to others. What you do with that truth is up to you.
February 20, 2014 at 2:36 pm
Libby says:
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Please keep your “truth” to yourself. I don’t need your form of the truth in my life. It is intolerant and judgemental. You sound like a follower of Focus on the Family or some other such cult.
February 20, 2014 at 4:51 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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You are one of those who need to hear the truth most of all. You’ve been deceived into thinking you’ve found God and you should stop searching. I encourage you to look further.
Yes, from a human perspective, the truth sounds intolerant and judgmental. The truth will be offensive. I cannot apologize for that as it’s not my message.
And though I don’t have a problem with Focus on the Family and would not classify it as a cult, I am not a follower. I base my faith on what I have read and experienced.
February 24, 2014 at 11:17 am
Libby says:
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Me, too. Now leave me alone about it. You’re becoming very obnoxious in your proseltyizing.
February 24, 2014 at 4:58 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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I am curious if you have read the Bible – the entire Bible, or at least the Gospels?
February 20, 2014 at 10:48 am
Devill's Advocate says:
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Libby, I did read Captain’s post. He was also in his post talking about shellfish, mixing of fabrics, etc. I was directing him to information about why those things no longer apply, but the prohibition against homosexual behavior still does. I get tired of the people who think they have a “gotcha” moment with the canard about shellfish, etc. There IS an explanation if people would just bother to look for it and take time to educate themselves about Old Testament teachings. Ask my rabbi.
Ok I know how you will react to this, and I am NOT saying that homosexuality is murder.
I am comparing the urge. People have urges to have sex. People have urges to have sex with same sex, other sex.
And those urges are often directly transferable to rapists and murderers. Murderers feel an urge to kill. We all have bad urges. When you have the urge to yell, why did god give you that? Why did god create bad things at all?
Your question is silly. God created free will so that we could choose to be good, choose him. He didn’t want drones. After growing up it is poetic when you think about it. Sit and think for just a moment about your kid. Your kid will spend their lives doing dumb things. And maybe you raised them right. Maybe you didn’t. How will you know? You back out, and watch. And every time your kid makes the right choice you are pleased. Does that mean you created your kid’s bad potential choices when they choose that? You might have encouraged it if you’re a bad parent, but you certainly did not create it.
You want your kid to choose the right thing, choose you, even when things are bad. And “god” wants the same thing (assuming he/it/she exists). It is actually imperative that we make that choice, choosing God without choosing him just because he wants us to. Choosing the right action because you know it is right is different than choosing it because you think God would.
This applies to the conservatives you are talking with as well.
None of you on here understand my point. Here is my view and I know it flies in the face of “religion”. But again, I don’t believe in organized religion.
My intial premise “God is everything or He is nothing.” You may or may not agree with that, but that is premise of my faith. If God is everything, that includes good, bad, happy and sad. I am not God. It is not for me to question God’s plans or actions. Sometimes people have to die so that others can live. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. That is God’s plan. He has one for me and I am just try to pay attention and let Him lead me. When I quit listening, I get myself in trouble.
So I don’t believe in books, rituals, churches (although I find them peaceful places to be), or in a “religion.” They are all irrelevant in my view. God is God. He is not one God, he is everyone’s God.
Again, I don’t need to be preached at by you “Christians” out there because I don’t believe what you do. I live my life with Christian values and I am a good person. I am not afraid of my God and he is not a punitive God. He is my Father and I am His child. He would not let harm come to me. So if something “bad” happens in my life, I have to search for the reason and learn the lesson.
Furthermore, then you do believe in Bad. You said why would God create homosexuality if it was bad.
There is Bad out there, and we all can be it.
Your premise was poor.
February 20, 2014 at 8:20 am
Libby says:
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Everything that happens, good OR bad, is in God’s plan. I do not question his plan. He is in charge.
February 20, 2014 at 10:47 am
Libby says:
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All you fake “Christians” out there thumbing this post down obviously think you know better than God. You’re all going to hell! LOL!!!
February 20, 2014 at 11:44 am
bob says:
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Libby,
Just because it’s all part of his “plan” does not mean one should live life as a murderer or go against what God wants.
It doesn’t mean one should yell at their wife, or beat their kids.
There is right or wrong. And saying you don’t know God’s plan to avoid making the tough decisions when it comes to right or wrong, doesn’t make you superior to a Christian who down votes you on a journal site!
February 20, 2014 at 12:49 pm
Libby says:
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Bob – I never said you should live your life as a murderer or beat your wife. When those things happen, people need to be punished by society. I just do not believe in God v. the Devil or Good v. Evil. It’s part of a master plan that I am not in control of. I can only control myself.
February 20, 2014 at 2:54 pm
bob says:
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Libby,
By default, if you believe God exists, you should trust him more than society when it comes to punishment and what should/shouldn’t be done.
Regarding gay behavior on a note of how it can damage society and how the person doing it is actually depriving themselves a family unit with two opposite gender role models that will shape their kids on either gender, and denying themselves the ability to think emphatically of people of the opposite sex to the strongest degree by waking up with one everyday, they are doing something that may be socially acceptable, but if we go by what a God would want for us, and the family unit he set up, is something he doesn’t want for us to be limited to, or regress to. You view people who are against homosexuality as regressive. I view homosexuality a form of regressive conservative lifestyle, it’s just we have come as society to have a pretty twisted definition of conservative and liberal, very much twisted. My view of liberals included on that. I would prefer to not stay twisted in that. Wouldn’t you? Let’s both work on it eh?
February 20, 2014 at 3:15 pm
Libby says:
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Bob – I believe in a loving God, not a punitive God. And I don’t believe in heaven and hell, as sometimes it seems hell is already on earth. That is why I am for life in prison for murderers. That is truly going to hell as far as I’m concerned.
And I don’t see homosexuality as depriving someone of a family unit. They can have a family unit, just maybe not the one you described. But if they feel exactly the same was about someone of their same sex as you do about your wife, they should be able to marry the same as you are able to marry.
As hard as it is to imagine, they can love their partner with the same breadth and depth that you love yours. I know, because I have gay friends that have been together for over 30 years. Their relationship is the same as mine and yours.
February 20, 2014 at 6:38 pm
bob says:
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Libby,
They cannot have it as I described, and clearly it was made the way I described for a reason.
Moving on: God deciding what is bad and good is better than leaving punishment to people.
February 24, 2014 at 12:09 pm
Libby says:
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I don’t think God looks at things as “good” and “bad.” They just are. And they are that way because that’s His plan. Again, if “bad” things happen, I trust God has a good reason for them. I do not question God’s plan.
February 18, 2014 at 2:20 pm
Huh! says:
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While I believe marriage should remain between one man and one woman, I know that the worldview of marriage is changing. I do not disagree that all people should receive equal treatment under the law. The difficulty seems to lie in getting people to agree on what the law should be. Personally, I think “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is still a pretty good yardstick. If we could do that, we could probably eliminate a good many laws.
This movement has nothing to do with equal treatment because there is no inequality going on. All qualified men and women have the right under their respective state laws to marry as the law states: one man + one woman. The purpose of this movement is to change the definition of marriage. There is no definition of marriage under which you can join two of the same (of anything)together. In doing so, we are changing the foundation of society. There is nothing normal about it from a social, religious, or biological point of view. And as someone mentioned earlier, you cannot change the definition to fit one abnormal behavior without doing the same for all other such behaviors that people engage in.
Tax, definitions change all the time. Remember when a coke was just a coke, a ho just a hoe? The problem is with treating homosexuality as a perversion &/or abnormal behavior and trying to relate it to beastiality and child molesting, which couldn’t be further from the truth. There is nothing abnormal about two people loving and caring for each other. Your disdain and judgement is what is abnormal here.
It’s not special protection. The constitution gives ALL US citizens equal protection under the law. Doesn’t matter if they are male or female. It doesn’t matter what race they are. It doesn’t matter if they believe in one god or many or none. It also doesn’t matter who they love.
I believe marriage was used as a shortcut to give legal status enabling people to participate in benefits originally intended to offset financial costs for forming a family unit to raise children. Of course not all married couples had children but the assumed sacrifices one would make for the purposes of procreation was the justification for spousal benefits. (Are you old enough to remember when families survived on one income – My how the world has changed since the 60’s.)
One of the unintended consequences of expanding a benefit class is the gradual death of the benefit to the detriment of those that still need the protection. Such as the extinction of defined benefit plans favorable to surviving spouses that have now given way to retirement contribution plans and decisions being made to no longer offer spouses access to company medical plans (The ACA may share the blame for this one).
The best course for private employers seems to be offering more income, in place of benefits, to its valued employees and the government should be increasing tax breaks to people raising the next generation of tax payers that will be the sole support of our social security and Medicare benefits.
As more government “defined” spouses come into the dining room the pie will just be cut into smaller pieces and soon there could be no pie left. No pie for you Jerry.
More tax breaks already are afforded families with children. I am married with no children and my taxes are much higher than they are for a family of four. I pay MORE school and recreation tax than they do, but do not get the benefit of their use. I don’t begrudge it, but it’s the truth.
There are many more benefits for being married than tax breaks. There are rights to decide medical care and funeral arrangements when that time comes. In the eyes of the law, you are afforded the highest status in regards to the other person. Even higher than mother and father. Longtime gay partners are not afforded the same status and that is wrong.
Your income tax may be higher as you have less refunds, but I’d guess the taxes I pay on groceries, clothes, etc, to take care of my family of 5 easily offset that.
Not likely, straight. I also pay taxes on groceries, clothes, and gas. The tax difference couldn’t possibly make up for the income tax I pay. And I don’t have less refunds, I HAVE TO PAY. So enjoy your hefty refund and think of poor schmucks like me.
Ok, let’s make this easy. You buy 1 coke – $.10 tax. I buy 5 cokes – $.50 tax. My tax is 5 times your amount.
And I pay as well. I don’t get 100% of the income taxes returned. I just choose to pay extra through the year so there is a surplus, rather than a deficit. Hence the term “refund”.
February 18, 2014 at 4:43 pm
Libby says:
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Well, we’ll never really know unless we compare tax returns now will we?
But the difference between my 33% net tax bracket and your net 15% net tax bracket can buy alot of cokes. It may even out, but I doubt it.
February 18, 2014 at 5:43 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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That’s a pretty big assumption to assume to know my tax bracket. It’s not likely we are going to trade tax information, and we aren’t going to be able to calculate all possible deductions/tax rules, but let’s see if we can keep find a reasonable comparison.
Given a person, such as your self, in the 33% bracket with no children. We can assume there is some other person out there who also is in the 33% tax bracket, but has a family to support. If there are 3 children in that family, and there is a $1,000 tax credit per child, that gives $3,000 off the income taxes the family will pay.
So, if we have a given amount to support an individual per month – say $500 – to purchase all necessities. We also have a given sales tax percentage of 15% – the same for you and for the family.
This totals $6,000 per year for your expenses and $900 for sales taxes. The family is paying $30,000 per year and $4,500 for sales taxes. $4,500 – $900 = $3600 more that the family pays for sales taxes.
If we then subtract the $3,000 credit, that leaves the family to pay an additional $600 that you did not pay.
February 19, 2014 at 9:36 am
Libby says:
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Well, I just did a very simple calculation using a marginal tax rate calculator. $50,000 married filing jointly.
With 3 children = -$1,147 tax
Without children = $3,608 tax
I/we pay $4,755 more in income tax than you do. And I don’t know where you live, but 15% sales tax?? Even at 7%, you’d have to spend more than your gross salary on goods to come close to the $4,755 more I pay in taxes.
You found a calculator on the internet and ran some numbers. What are the equasions used for that? Are they accurate? Up to date? How do you know?
I tried to walk through a simple example to illustrate there are other taxes than just the income tax to consider.
February 19, 2014 at 3:02 pm
Libby says:
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You’re hopeless. Yes, I found a calculator on the internet. They’re everywhere you moron. And did you notice the part where it says it was updated for 2014? You attack my source, which provides credible data, by presenting some ludicrous elementary example of you buy 5 cokes and I only buy 1? For one thing, I buy 2. And there is no way your extra 7% tax on consumable items in any way compares to the amount of additional tax I pay. It’s just a fact. I know they are hard for you righties to digest and understand, but they are, nonetheless, facts.
I also said I did not begrudge paying more, as that is part of being a member of society. But I don’t like some ignorant person trying to prove me wrong by pointing out how many cokes they buy. You’re ridiculous.
February 19, 2014 at 7:18 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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Hopeless? No, quite the opposite. I’m full of hope. That is why I continue this discussion.
And yes, the calulators are everywhere on the internet. Just because its on the internet, you assume it’s correct? I can throw one up in an hour that would refute those results. Which is correct then?
I used the coke example as you had mentioned cokes in a previous post and had an idea you might relate. I had thought you could grasp the concept I was talking about in general terms. I am simply presenting an alternate idea. Trying to broaden your mind, and you react with anger, frustration, and name-calling.
Further, you cannot credibly say something is a fact when the statement is your opinion. Just posting on a discussion board doesn’t make it so.
Now, back to my example, you buy two cokes, that’s $.20 tax, which is still less than the $.50 for five.
February 20, 2014 at 8:24 am
Libby says:
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You’re hopeless because you are ignorant. I present credible data, which you have yet to refute in kind, that I pay $4,000+ more income tax per year than you do and you try to say your sales tax makes up for it? Do the math. $4,000/.07 = $57,143. That is how much you’d have to spend on cokes to even the score.
Tell me, do you get a tax refund? Because I sure don’t.
February 20, 2014 at 1:53 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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You provided plausible data. The credibility has yet to be established. You can’t say you pay more income tax than me because I never stated how much I pay and I have no plan to do so on a discussion board. I say you cannot base your claim you pay more just because someone gets a refund and you do not. Maybe you need a new accountant?
February 20, 2014 at 2:39 pm
Libby says:
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You only have to look at the tax tables, moron. Married no children v. married with dependents. We pay more. Lots more. I can’t tell you exactly how much more I pay than you do individually, but I can say as a whole we pay more than married with kids. Is that so hard to understand?
February 20, 2014 at 3:45 pm
txmouthbreatherboogereatertx says:
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This is why conservatives husbands like keeping their wives home well after their children become school aged and no longer need day care. Extra dependents mean less tax liability, better financial aid packages for college, and all the other BS that we shouldn’t have to subsidize.
February 20, 2014 at 4:37 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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Apparently it is hard to understand because you still aren’t getting it. I’m not saying you may not pay more income tax. I’m saying there are other taxes that you should consider before you complain that you aren’t getting a refund. None of those taxes are on your tax tables.
February 24, 2014 at 12:15 pm
Libby says:
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Yes you did say that, and I quote: “Your income tax may be higher as you have less refunds, but I’d guess the taxes I pay on groceries, clothes, etc, to take care of my family of 5 easily offset that.”
Your additional sales tax of, maybe, 7% couldn’t possibly “offset” by additional federal and state tax – even if I paid NO sales tax at all, which I do.
And I wasn’t complaining about no refund, just stating the facts. You were the one that chose to argue with me with no basis in fact. Now, go away.
February 24, 2014 at 4:51 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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“Now, go away.” Really? I was about done with you as you have not validly argued your point, but since you insist.
Do you even read what I post, or take the time to comprehend what is written? You just quoted the exact thing I restated. Again – I am not saying you do not pay more INCOME tax. I am saying there are other taxes to consider overall.
Understand this time?
And it sure sounded like you were complaining about not receiving a refund as you stated – “So enjoy your hefty refund and think of poor schmucks like me.”
I have provided a basis for my argument, which you choose to ignore. That is fine, but ignoring and refuting are not the same thing.
February 25, 2014 at 8:46 am
Libby says:
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That is not at all what you said. You said your increase in sales tax “offset” my increase in income tax and I say no way, pal. Now will you go away? Read your bible and leave me alone.
February 25, 2014 at 1:09 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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Nope, can’t go away. I’m not sure why. Normally, I don’t bother with posting, but maybe I’m supposed to get you thinking.
Anyway, if you’d re-read the posts, you see I said both things, which really are the same point, just restated.
February 25, 2014 at 1:34 pm
Libby says:
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You inferred that your increased sales tax somehow negated the increase I pay in income tax. Again, I say no way, pal. You fail to take into account that I, too, pay sales tax. You pay 2-1/2 times the sales tax I do (5 people v. 2 people). Considering I pay $4,755 more just in federal income tax alone, you’d have to spend $63,400 on taxable items at 7-1/2% to offset the $4,755 ADDITIONAL income tax that I pay. And that doesn’t even take into account that I ALSO pay sales tax on taxable items theoretically at the same rate you do, you just have 5 consumers to my 2.
You are trying to backpedal now and say that is now what you inferred, but you know it was and so do I. Married without children are supporting married with children. That’s just the way it goes.
February 25, 2014 at 2:33 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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No backpedalling required. If you review my calculations, you can see I took your sales tax into consideration. However, I did only list yours as a single, so I’ll give you that there are 2 to consider to the family’s 5.
However, the tax where I live is higher than the 7.5% you insist upon. That plus the fact that children’s needs typically cost more than an adult’s needs (needs, not wants, mind you), is why I proposed that your higher income tax could be offset by other taxes. Choose to deny it as I’m sure you will, but the numbers are there.
February 25, 2014 at 2:55 pm
Libby says:
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The numbers are NOT there. Whether your sales tax is 7% or 15% is inconsequential, as I would be paying the same rate if I were in your state. And since sales tax goes to the state, if anything, it might (big might) offset any STATE income tax we pay, but not FEDERAL.
Your argument is weak and you are really beginning to sound pathetic. Give it up.
February 25, 2014 at 6:07 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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You argued the percentage was an issue when I presented my calculations. I provided the calculations to show you that they do have the potential to even out, given the same percentage for all parties. Yet you still deny this.
Plus sales tax goes to state, county, city.
February 26, 2014 at 9:07 am
Libby says:
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This will be my last post to you on this issue because you are obviously dumb-as-dirt. Even at a 15% sales tax, you would have to spend $31,700 on taxable/consumable items to even out the additional $4,755 I pay in federal income tax. That $4,755 was based on a gross income of $50,000. So, in other words, Dumbo, you’d have to spend your entire salary on taxable items (which groceries are not) to “even out” the additional $4,755 I pay in federal income tax. And that’s not even taking into account that I pay sales tax for 2 people as well. You’re argument is pathetic, you’re pathetic, and I’m done with this remedial math lesson. Go back to school.
February 26, 2014 at 11:40 am
Get your facts straight says:
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Glad that was your last post as you have exhausted your arguments and again resort to childish name-calling. I guess I should move to wherever you are because, yes, there are grocery taxes here. If you ever tried to feed teen-agers you would quickly learn how the costs add up. Children also need much more than groceries and medicine, but since you have stated you do not have children, I can see where you would not realize that.
Since you brought it up, if there was only a way to prove my education level, you’d realize how humorous your suggestion I return to school is. Alas, I don’t expect you to understand.
February 18, 2014 at 3:53 pm
Original Bob says:
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Glad you don’t begrudge paying more taxes but you do receive benefits from the education of the next generation even if they are not your children.
There are legal remedies already in place – Most of your concerns can be put in a living will or other legal documents so you can stop waiving the bloody flag. Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, there’s no homosexual gene and no evidence of any physical differences – And if there are please present your proof as you are so quick to demand of other who post. This is why it is difficult for me to accept a court decision based on non-science.
I disagree with your conclusions. Homosexuality is not a choice, it just is. You don’t have to like it, but you may not infringe upon the rights of others because you don’t like something.
But I will comment. Did you choose to be heterosexual? No, of course not. I find it terribly hard to believe that people would choose a path that would potentially alienate them from their families and cause them to be disdained and discriminated against by society. No-one in their right mind would choose that. Do you know any gay people? I do and they did not choose it. They were born that way, just as you and I were born heterosexual. Just because they are a minority doesn’t mean they are abnormal.
Libby, I expected a better response. I actually respect most of your posts (but do not necessarily agree with them) because you can back them with a credible information source. Sometimes I’ve wondered if you are really an insurance professional but rather an employee of a liberal watchdog group that troll blogs and websites to combat conservative opinions. When you get into the emotional “because it makes me feel good about myself”, I sure that you are a strong supporter of liberal talking points – the last stand for the liberal argument is usually the emotional appeal..
February 18, 2014 at 4:31 pm
Libby says:
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Nope, not a troll. But I am a liberal, hence my name. But I don’t do it because it makes me feel better. I believe in equality for all. If that makes me a liberal, so be it. I think that just makes me a good person.
February 18, 2014 at 4:33 pm
Libby says:
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But you didn’t answer my question Original. Do you know any gay people or would that just totally gross you out?
February 18, 2014 at 4:45 pm
Libby says:
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And what was wrong with my answer? You wanted me to provide scientific proof that homosexuality is nature not nurture? Can you provide proof that it’s not nature? Do you think people would choose a path that will bring them much heartache and pain in their life if they didn’t have to? I think that’s a pretty strong argument.
February 18, 2014 at 6:55 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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Proof its not nature – babies. We wouldn’t be around long enough otherwise.
February 19, 2014 at 9:37 am
Libby says:
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Population control.
February 19, 2014 at 1:45 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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Population control in nature is handled by predators, disease, limited resouces (starvation). Which of these does homosexuality fall under?
February 19, 2014 at 3:04 pm
Libby says:
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I’m sure you would say disease, since you’re such a ignoramous.
February 19, 2014 at 4:51 pm
bob says:
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Libby:
Homosexuality is not population control. We would have extremely high occurrences in areas with dense population (India) and when humans starve if that were the case.
If the body is modifying based on survival, starvation would be a primary factor leading to homosexual behavior.
Also, the rates would have to be incredibly high to be a viable form of population control. It would have to equal out the average of human children in a family without birth control. It was not uncommon back in the day to have enormous families. That would mean the gay population would have to be huge. Absolutely huge, if it were for population control.
It’s a form of damage. I’ve been around a lot of gay people. Why do you surmise gay behavior is so common in Catholic schools, or strict religious environments?
Why do you surmise, that the suicide rates are so high? It cannot all be social acceptance issues. Gay behavior is simply too accepted to be the case. Half the population agrees with the lifestyle, yet the amount of suicides, alcoholism, increased sexual partners, is something like 10 times higher. If there was an increase due to acceptance in society, you would have half the population influencing the rate, so the affect should not be 10 times higher. The math just doesn’t add up. All of the 50% could be against gay behavior and it wouldn’t cause that type of a spike, as the people could rely on 1 in 2 people being very supportive of your lifestyle since they see you as prosecuted. If I had to guess, 1/100 out of my 2,000 class mates were supportive of me when I needed it. The damage is likely linked to the behavior. This holds true with every gay person I have known. Just after my first girlfriend I nearly dated a girl with two lesbian parents. She said it felt like she needed a man, and a father. She felt accepted. She was never teased. She was extremely depressed, as were her parents. I also nearly dated another girl who told me about her gay experience. She said it was amazing to be part of the crowd, and the “we are free” thing. But she said eventually she realized her partners were always needing to be that way, part of the movement. They were more obsessed with that than their love. Watch videos of people who are gay. A third and fourth girl were bi. They said they wanted a family, and with a man and a woman it seemed expanded. Then they had a kid, and realized that they just set up a family that was far too hard to manage. They got depressed, got into drugs, got into alcohol.
When you watch the kids who get into these behaviors there is always some damage.
February 19, 2014 at 5:12 pm
Libby says:
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Population control remark was a joke, Bob. Your comment, ” Half the population agrees with the lifestyle, yet the amount of suicides, alcoholism, increased sexual partners, is something like 10 times higher. If there was an increase due to acceptance in society, you would have half the population influencing the rate, so the affect should not be 10 times higher. The math just doesn’t add up.” sounds good in theory, but it doesn’t pan out in real life.
1. Many gays grew up in a time when homosexuality was not accepted. This is a new phenomenon in society.
2. You may have 1 in 2 people being supportive, but if the 1 is your mother and father it makes a far greater impact than number 2, your science teacher.
Not all gays feel a need to be part of a movement. They just want the same thing we all do; love and acceptance. They’re no different than anyone else.
February 19, 2014 at 6:22 pm
bob says:
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Libby,
I listed several groups for the reason that there are several types. Each of those was intentionally a different type. Did you not notice that? None of them was a one time occurrence.
Gay behavior support has not changed much since the 1940’s. The degree of voracity has changed, not the numbers of support vs against. You need to fix the error of believing this generation is more progressed than the last. The refresh is surprisingly similar among generations, and the each generation has defining moments.
Moving on, ok, in light of that your population control comment was actually pretty funny :)
If the one in two people was the father, and then they had a 1/2 ratio in high school (which is a great one) then they would turn out fine. You tell me that a gay person doesn’t have a click of friends in high school the majority of the time and you would have to be out of your mind. They have support. They had more than I did, certainly. They had more accepting parents than I did, certainly. I had one abusive father and one neglectful mother. I finally learned that complaining about it was exactly the problem. When you say your daddy didn’t accept you, it’s a form of rejecting your father. When you even say your father’s flaws it is a form of rejection. Many times, these kids are in the cycle that their parents created. I want my daddy to accept me the way I am. Would my daddy accept me gay? Why not? And then they become more set on being gay. They aren’t accepted by their dad/mom. They aren’t accepting their dad/mom, and the gay person is being accepting in their eyes. That’s not each occurrence, but again, I’m a lot more liberal than you think, and I have personally been through this. I pulled off a change with my father before he died. Having a horrible father and a great mother would be an amazing blessing. Have you ever heard of a violent male figure changing? I did it with my father. I would list exactly how, but this is why I do not accept the “I was teased” “I had a bad life” comments. I was teased worse. I was in a worse family. One of my furthest back memories was my father strangling my mother. It was not the only time. Not to say she deserved it, but she was absolutely horrible to him. They got into a cycle. Violence and abuse and neglect definitely has an affect on gay behavior, but to state that violence and abuse is why gay people are depressed and suicidal, as well as more likely to have more sexual partners and have substance abuse is ignoring what gay people actually have troubling them, and why they become gay. Canada has studied this. As support has gone up for Gay marriage, substance abuse has not changed. Suicide rates have not changed. Sexual deviance has increased if anything. These are signs of a depressed people and increasingly we are finding it is not from acceptance of being gay.
I care about these people. You think you do, but saying “We love you just the way you are, it’s all those other guys’s badness that we need to focus on!” is just perpetuating their family issues, making them more upset with their parents or areas where they aren’t supported, and is feeding into the lie that they are persecuted against, which likely had a lot to do with their depression to begin with. I would rather be told it was my choice, that I didn’t have to choose either a free life or respect from my parents. That I didn’t have to be at odds with my parents.
February 19, 2014 at 6:27 pm
bob says:
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Libby,
That was poor wording, it should have said that violence and neglect definitely has an affect on someone becoming gay, but to say that the abuse and violence was BECAUSE they were gay is ignoring the plights of those who become gay. It certainly isn’t all gay people who go through this, but it has certainly been greater than half of the ones I have ran into in Seattle.
February 19, 2014 at 7:27 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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I would not call it a disease. It would have to be natural to be one of the three options. Since I’m of the opinion it is not natural, but a choice, then it cannot be a disease.
February 20, 2014 at 3:00 am
bob says:
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Getyourfactsstraight:
Are you talking to me about the disease?
I never called it such. I said there are a damaged people who are choosing to be gay.
In fact, I said I have no sympathy for someone who gets in a vicious cycle of my dad won’t accept me gay, why does he hate me? Then the dad goes my son is rejecting me because of these gay bastards, what the hell?
That’s an extreme example and not the norm, but you get the point.
February 20, 2014 at 3:05 am
bob says:
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Nevermind. I see where you said it.
These comments are hard to track.
February 20, 2014 at 8:32 am
Libby says:
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Bob – I never said violence and abuse causes people to become gay. I think they are born that way. I said when your parents reject you because you are gay, that can cause self-loathing and depression. And just because you have a clique of friends or a supportive science teacher, doesn’t make up for the fact that the most important person in your life rejects you because of who you are. The one that is supposed to love you no matter what. Does support from others help? Yes. Don’t try to put words in my mouth, please. If you have a question about my comment, just ask and don’t assume.
February 20, 2014 at 8:46 am
Libby says:
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Bob – Judging by my first post, there is not a 1/1 ratio of people accepting homosexuality. I have 40 dislikes and only 20 likes. Where did you find your statistic?
February 20, 2014 at 12:01 pm
bob says:
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Libby,
The absolute majority of gay people are not born gay, and I sincerely doubt that it is possible.
It is environmental. How do I know? I have become close with many gay people, and the MAJORITY changed as I said. Not one was not damaged. And not one told me they were born gay. They told me how they were ticked off at how the media portrays it. The girl who was raised with two lesbian parents said her parents were more or less normal. But that anyone who said living with two parents of the same gender was the same as having a father and mother was out of their mind. The lesbian who said she got into it and realized that the people really were not about love so much as rebelling and being part of a crowd said that she was not sure any of her partners were lesbian, and she too was pissed at media for feeding into the fact that being gay made you against society somehow. The interesting thing is that the people I have seen remain gay get into drugs, and while studies try to blame social acceptance, again, IN SEATTLE I HAVE NEVER SEEN A GAY PERSON TEASED. Not once. I have seen it become a status that makes one proud, I have seen it become a means to a friend group and lifestyle where you can have no teasing at all whatsoever, a shield against a hard life, because this world is hard to everyone accept for gays in Seattle.
Also, if you don’t believe that half the population is ok with gay behavior you’re deluding yourself. Comments in a journal site is not appropriate for weighing the measure. Regardless, wikipedia has a collection of a multitude of site polls.
Well, Bob, we’ll agree to disagree. I have many, many gay friends and they all say they always knew they were gay. Many tried not to be, for a variety of reasons, but all said they could not sustain the deception.
I firmly believe gay people are born that way, but I have no scientific proof of that. Just my experiences with the gay people in my life over the last 40+ years.
February 20, 2014 at 2:43 pm
Take a Step says:
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It does not matter if someone was born gay or if something in their life happened that “made” them gay. We are talking equality for all and that includes the right for a woman to marry a woman and a man to marry a man. To have the same legal rights as a heterosexual couple and … Libby’s right. I never would have chosen to be gay. I was raised in the church. I was president of our youth group, served on the alter, sang in the choir, did volunteer work. I still have a love for God but I do not go where I am not accepted. Was I born this way? I believe so. I always knew I was different and tried to go against who I was for a long time. I never wanted to be ousted from society.
February 20, 2014 at 2:58 pm
bob says:
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take a Step:
Have I once said that I am against gay marriage buddy?
Don’t get into a convo you don’t understand.
I have specifically said I’m ok with gay marriage, as long as the wording does not leave open for lawsuits with the church, removing tax exempt status of the church, or doesn’t restrict the ability to pay your church to fly out to Hawaii, since they would lose their tax exempt status for doing so.
The WA state law is oppressive toward religion.
I’m not into your political red vs blue crap, and I can already tell you’re on the wrong side of it.
February 20, 2014 at 3:04 pm
bob says:
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Libby,
In your group of gay friends:
How old are they?
How long have you been their friend?
Were they destructive/still are?
How is the relationship with the parents?
I am insanely good at finding out “why”. There is always, a why. What you need to pay attention to is how many gay people change. The media doesn’t report on it. But it’s common. And then listen to those who do. If you know gay people who aren’t accepted by their parents, or perceive that, they will stay gay until they get over damage. Then they will get upset and question what they did.
If you know gay people who are young: They don’t know themselves.
If you know gay people who feel oppressed: They have not figured out how to stop rebelling.
You are basically not supportive of gays at all. You just say “it’s all a-ok” when that’s often not what they need to hear. They want you to find out why. They want you to be sympathetic. And more often than not, they want family. If they knew a hetero family was better than a gay family, they would choose it.
February 20, 2014 at 3:23 pm
Libby says:
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Bob – most of my gay friends are in my age group. I have a gay cousin, my sister’s ex-husband, a friend from high school and more recently three sets of lesbian couples that are friends. They are all well adjusted and totally cool with their sexuality. A couple have had substance abuse issues, but so have I. So what? It wasn’t because they were gay and all are clean and sober right now. They all knew they were gay. Two of them married trying to deny it, only to find out they couldn’t live with a lie. I see them as no different than me. If they need to talk to someone or they need support, they know I am there for them because that’s the kind of friend I am. We talk about everything.
February 20, 2014 at 3:25 pm
Libby says:
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Take a Step – I’m glad that you are comfortable with your sexuality. You are brave to admit it on this forum.
February 20, 2014 at 4:30 pm
BS says:
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It’s crap like this that makes my blood boil. Being gay or straight is NOT a choice. Sexual attraction is NOT a choice. A person can choose how to respond to and act on those attractions, but they are still born with them.
To say that the majority of the gay and lesbian population chooses to love someone of the same gender because of a bad childhood or because they are rebelling is just another way to justify marginalizing them. It implies that LGBTQ people don’t really deserve the same protections and rights as straight people because they choose to be that way, and that they could simply choose to be another way if they really want those rights.
My cousin would give ANYTHING to be straight. He hates himself, and has tried to end his life a number of times. His family is not abusive. He’s not rebelling against anything. His folks (hell, his entire extended family) are supportive of him and just want him to be happy. But, he grew up with the Church telling him he was wrong and going to hell. He’s now in his 30’s and he still believes it. My cousin is an awesome guy. He’s smart and kind and not bad looking. He deserves to be happy, and to have someone who loves him. But he hasn’t even tried to have a relationship because he is so ashamed of himself. And that is so wrong on so many levels.
It’s NOT a choice. Who would choose to be harassed and beaten up at school on a regular basis? Who would choose to be thrown out of the house at 16 for getting caught kissing someone of the same gender? Who would choose to be attracted to someone that could get them killed just for walking down the street holding hands with that person? If it was a choice, who wouldn’t just opt for the path of least resistance and settle down with a nice, opposite-sex partner?
You ever think that maybe there is a high rate of drug use, depression and suicide among LGBTQ people because of people constantly telling them that they are sinful and evil? That maybe constantly being told that they are choosing to be homosexual and therefore wrong, might wear on a person? That trying desperately to change something that can’t be changed wouldn’t wreak havoc on someone’s psyche? I think anyone – gay or straight – who is constantly berated for something they can’t change would have similar issues.
February 20, 2014 at 5:13 pm
Take a Step says:
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Bob: I cannot believe you told me to stay out of a conversation that I do not understand. I live this everyday. I’m not sure how my comments could be construed as political so, let me clarify my comments have nothing to do with any political affiliation.
Libby: Thank you. I think you are very brave as well to take on this topic.
BS: I am sorry for the trouble your cousin is having. It is so hard when you instinct goes against everything you were taught to believe in. I hope your cousin gets some counseling. There are support groups. He may want to look up Human Rights Campaign’ website or look into locating a Metropolitan Community Church. That may be a better option since they can speak with him on a spiritual level. They have a website as well.
Okay, I have to leave this conversation for now to pick up my son.
February 20, 2014 at 6:41 pm
bob says:
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BS:
And I’m tired of crap like yours, on something you don’t understand.
Did you see the post where I mentioned that I could not date a woman for an extremely long time? I didn’t out right say it. Maybe because I don’t want to talk about it.
I’m well aware of the crowds. I was in them. You weren’t. You’re an activist without a cause.
February 20, 2014 at 6:43 pm
bob says:
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Take a step:
The conversation was not yours, you did not understand what we were talking about if you brought up gay marriage. Do not enter in talking about my positions on gay marriage. And don’t take some sob story about your gay experience thereafter. I am perfectly capable of seeing this. As I said above, I could not date a woman after my mother and my first ex. My crowds in seattle are the gay crowds. Damaged. All of them.
You think your religion hates you, which means you likely fall into one of the groups I actually mentioned. So who made you feel that way?
If you felt so bad why? Was it the religion, or was it that you just knew it was bad?
Start asking yourself tough questions.
February 20, 2014 at 6:57 pm
bob says:
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take a step:
Moreover, why are you still Christian? Glutton for pain?
Being with someone of the same sex isn’t just “bad” cause the bible says so. I bet you find that trying to be straight was something that was righteous when you tried it. If you wanted to be straight to be righteous, and not for real reasons at all, that was your problem. Having been raised catholic I have all too often seen the “be straight because the bible says so”. Do something with the wrong motivation and you will fail. No one explains other aspects. Maybe you have problems relating to certain male traits for example. You feel you have to be a masculine male, and you don’t like it. You want to play with barbies. Then you try to date a girl, and you work out being completely not compatible. There are people like that as well. They say they always knew they were different. Yes. They were. And they were treated different. They knew they were different because they were, and as they were treated different they grew attractions due to not being normal. I agree 100%. Non compatibility with women. Non compatibility with women though is the whole point. When someone lacks the ability to be with a woman because they lack the ability to have a close relationship with one, do you think that being with a man will help their clear problems they have with women that made the feel alienated enough to not gain attraction?
February 20, 2014 at 7:02 pm
bob says:
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BS:
Let me shorten it up:
Humans are environmental more than anything else. I am tired of people like you, who seek to label gays as being born that way.
I guess we are all ingrained in our dna? Urges to kill included. I’m sorry I don’t believe in your “I don’t have a choice in who I am” bull crap.
I have a choice in who I am and who I become. My environment affects me, and then I make choices.
DNA is not the source of who we are. People who are gay have factors that cause it, sometimes a choice, sometimes environment that makes them make the choice, but it can be changed.
February 21, 2014 at 2:13 pm
Bob says:
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BS:
Think back to your sexual attractions, and if you knew yourself, every single fetish comes from life experiences. Not DNA.
I know where my desire from anal sex came from, because I know myself well. I know where all my desires come from, it’s how I changed them. And I didn’t change them by changing them. I changed them by changing the bad areas of my life. As soon as I actually maintained positive areas of life, as soon as I lost certain fears, my desire for anal sex with my wife left. I wasn’t trying to get rid of that desire BS. It left when the damage did. I actually told her “I don’t want anal sex anymore…” when I realized it. I know how this works, the problem is that you don’t know yourself, and most people don’t.
Violent behaviors can be changed, especially on environment. I did it with my father. When we were kids he was probably the most violent male type you can possibly imagine. It turned out he just couldn’t escape the first few mistakes he did. Then they got worse. Then he couldn’t escape those. When I said what he did wrong I was rejecting his course to becoming better. Even acknowledging what he was restricted his growth.
Sexuality is not in DNA. When you form your life your desires follow it. Considering DNA doesn’t just magically change, this formation is because sexuality is learned in life, and is the bi product of your relationships (not just lover relationships) in life.
You like to say that if people change they were never that way to begin with, and you are wrong. I had these friends. I saw the change. I had the change. I wasn’t trying to change my sexual orientation. Like I said with Anal sex, I would never have said it was related to some damage before it changed. I loved it. It was the hottest thing in the world to me. I couldn’t be attracted to vaginal. I found the mucus disgusting. I was chemically not attracted to it. I thought it was because I wasn’t interested, so I put it on the back burner. I didn’t just try to want it as many believe. No. I fixed things in my life one by one non related. And as I did, suddenly I changed. I wanted to be with a woman. The woman coincidentally loved anal sex so it worked out. But slowly I grew connected to her, and I fixed other areas one by one. Until finally I just didn’t want anal sex nearly as much. I still like it. I just now have this thing for vaginal, which now I am attracted to it. And I know it has to do with the mental changes I did.
It is no coincidence now that she hurt me to no end, I am starting to feel the same way about vaginal sex and am switching back to anal. And when my relationships suffered or things I fought to get would go backwards, or I would want anal sex.
Pay attention to when you have fetishes, when they go away, and what not. It doesn’t happen in a day. It happens over years, so you have to analyze yourself consistently, rather than just saying “I am this way”. Very very few people actually do this. They fly by the seat of their pants. I have talked with others who made the switch. Much of it is that my friends often admire me and want to be like me. When I analyze, they analyze. And when gay people are around people like you, they follow after you and that mindset of “I was born this way”. Bring me around your friends. In 5 years these people will know what made their sexual orientations. And I bet half will change lifestyles, and gradually become more positive, and maybe half of that will turn straight. It happens around me all the time.
I know what I’m talking about. Science is not the driving force. And humanity is much more beautiful when you realize that.
February 21, 2014 at 3:38 pm
BS says:
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Hi Bob,
Thanks for responding in the right spot instead of down where I mistakenly posted. :)
I understand your thought process, but I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I do firmly believe that a person’s sexuality is predisposed. Not necessarily gay vs. straight, but to varying degrees of hetro and homosexuality – like the Kinsey scale. I do think life experiences could cause a more fluid person to lean one way or the other. But, I don’t believe that something bad happening in a person’s life causes them to become gay or that removing that issue will ‘fix’ it. I just don’t see homosexuality as something wrong that needs to be fixed.
And I know you probably don’t want to hear my opinion on the matter, but I’m going to throw it out there anyway. I don’t know what issues you had and what needed to be fixed. And that’s probably a lot more information than anyone would want to get into on an insurance board. But, I don’t think there was anything wrong with your ‘fetish.’ To be honest, I don’t think it’s a fetish or that there is anything wrong with it. If you like it, and your partner likes it, I don’t see any problems with it. You should have fun and enjoy yourself.
I think that’s a huge problem in our society. Any sex (gay or straight) that is outside of the traditional missionary-position-with-the-lights-out by a straight, married couple tends to looked at as dirty and wrong. Or at least as naughty and something you need to whisper about and maybe be ashamed of. Maybe I just have a really open mind when it comes to sex-type things, but as far as I’m concerned, as long as all parties involved are consenting adults I don’t see anything wrong with whatever they might get up to in the bedroom.
February 21, 2014 at 3:54 pm
bob says:
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BS:
I don’t find anything wrong with fetishes. I can see where your problem lies in your thought process due to how you perceive I am perceiving fetishes. I didn’t find anything wrong with my anal fetish. I didn’t find anything wrong with my shemale fetish. I didn’t find anything wrong with my male fetish.
The kinsley scale is not scientific and is not proven, you shouldn’t reference it.
I’m sorry to say BS this was a complete change that happened after my sexuality was firmly cemented. I was looking at anal porn since I was 10. The first boy who had interest in me was when i was around the same age.
My interest changed due to environment. This isn’t debatable. Everything, my disgust for the vagina, changed. I don’t think you understand I did not think about it as it was happening. I dated girls who tried to have sex with me. I didn’t want to. I did not feel kisses, I did not feel anything sexual for women. At all. I don’t know how I was attracted to my first girlfriend, but she certainly cemented it. I was done with women emotionally at that point. I would barf thinking about the anatomy of a vagina.
Sexual attraction, event though it seems physical, has everything to do with your personal relationships.
When you have a kid it changes. You see your wife with the kid. You see the love. And you’re amazed. Suddenly my penis loved my wife more. It wasn’t some kinsley scale of how gay I was born. It was the polar opposite of how I was supposedly born. How could the fact that I hated the mucus lining of a vagina change BS? You think it can’t. I know it can, due to environment. There is always a source. You absolutely need to talk to people who changed BS, as most people who are gay do not understand their reasons. The ones who changed are the measure to go by.
Also I really shouldn’t call my anal preference a fetish. I had no desire for vaginal sex whatsoever. The girl I finally dated was an anal freak.
When you break it down, the way you are sexually for example suffers after kids are born and you are stressed for many couples. In fact, when many people change after marriage I would argue that is the reason. Do you have kids? The conflict, the rejection due to lack of sleep, no one wants that. Some people can’t handle it. Some people do it wrong. It is damage BS.
When you function well, you work with a partner, your relationships are in order, your sexual desires increase and turn positive. When you’re stressed, and this has been proven, this is when most infidelity occurs, increased substance abuse, increased partners, and the confusion that normal people have when they are hetero, or gay.
You need to discover yourself. You haven’t yet. You are wrong on this. You just don’t realize it yet.
February 21, 2014 at 4:08 pm
bob says:
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BS:
P.S. (trying to be funny with words, I’m a nerd)
Anal sex and men lasted from 10 to 28.
When I was 22, I had ended my first female relationship. I suddenly realized focusing on dating and sex was a bad idea in light of what I went through. But I did it anyway. 22-26 I dated men, shemales, enjoyed myself thoroughly sexually for once and acted on what I “thought” were natural urges.
But at the same time:
I removed bad friends. I stopped thinking destructively. I did one positive thing a day with my mom, and my dad. I started cooking with them. I integrated new friends. They weren’t allowed to be overly sexual. They weren’t allowed to be having sex with people in the group solely for sex. They were only to be mental fixes, emotional fixes, and connections. Have you seen many gay people who intentionally got into groups in order to stop focusing on sex? The easy answer to that is no. Most gay people focus more on the sex, and they damage themselves more in those unhealthy groups.
So back on point: One of the girls really liked me, I was 27. We played board games, we did things I liked. There was no pressure for a sexual relationship, at all, but she wanted me. Eventually we started dating. Nothing physical because I couldn’t. But it was the most emotionally attached I ever felt. There weren’t any sexual butterflies. None existed. We didn’t have sex because of it. Finally, we had anal sex. I had somewhat of an emotional connection so I could do it, but let’s just say I couldn’t keep it up very well because she was a girl. But as I fixed things more it was better. She got pregnant, from anal while on depo shot, (crazy luck eh?). We had our first kid when I was 28. A girl. A girl that I couldn’t believe how much I loved her. And again, obviously, this love wasn’t about impulses. It was the purest love I had ever experienced. And my now wife, I couldn’t believe their relationship, and their connection to me. We started having vaginal sex. Again, I couldn’t really perform. I would literally think about an ass while doing anything to be able to keep it up. We would put anal porn on. See the point? The attraction wasn’t there.
And then it just changed. I was past 30, and the anal sex while still done, I didn’t feel as connected, as vaginal sex.
BS you’re going to just have to accept that these impulses gay people feel, and why they feel they love people of the same sex, is that they haven’t had real love with someone of the opposite sex and don’t know what it is or what it feels like. They were twisted in some way that made them attach to the same gender, without knowing it, and sex when you’re young you don’t question it.
I know I was explicit, but only so you would get the point.
February 21, 2014 at 5:34 pm
BS says:
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I didn’t mean that completely buy into the Kinsey scale. I know it’s had many detractors over the years. I just used it as a reference to help explain how I tend to view sexuality. I think some people are more hard-wired gay or straight, and others are more fluid, usually tending to lean one way or the other.
Since you shared your background with me, I’ll give you a bit of mine. It’s not quite as colorful as yours, but hopefully, it will explain where I am coming from.
Personally, I see myself as more fluid. A ‘Kinsey 2,’ if you will. ;) I’ve always been into guys. In grade school wrote the names of the boys I liked on my notebooks, and decided I was going to marry this or that boy-band member. In high school, I had crushes (or obsessions ;) and would get fluttery every time a boy I liked looked at or talked to me. It was typical high school girl crap.
But at the same time I was keeping an eye out in the hallways for the boys that I was ‘totally in love’ with, I was also keeping another eye out for certain girls. At the time, I wouldn’t have been able to put a name to it, but I was absolutely fascinated by them. I also didn’t realize it at the time, or what it might have meant, but I got just as flustered when they would look at or talk to me.
Flash forward a few years. I was in my very early twenties, and had dated a number of guys. I had absolutely no doubt that I liked men. And then I saw one of my best friends kissing another friend of mine. Both were girls. I knew that they only were doing it to get a rise out of a couple of the guys sitting by them, but suddenly, I was blindingly jealous. Not for the attention of the guys around them, but because I desperately wanted to be the one my best friend was kissing. It was then that I realized that I could be interested in both men and women.
Over the next year or so, I continued dating guys. I’d still notice other women. Still be fascinated by some of them. Not to mention that I was still carrying a pretty big torch for my best friend. But overall, it was just guys. Then, one night I went clubbing with my friend and we ended up making out in the back of the car on the way home. It was good. Comfortable. There were no awkward moments afterwards. It just felt right. And I think it might have actually gone somewhere, if the next day I hadn’t met a man that I fell head over heels in love with and ended up marrying.
My husband and I have been together for 16 years now. Married for 13. He is the love of my life, and I can’t imagine being without him. However, I still find women attractive. I’ll still see a woman, and think, “God, I want her.” I’ve had crushes on other women while I’ve been married. I went to a convention with a group of friends, and ended up having to share a bed with one of those crushes. It was one of the most nerve-wracking nights I’ve ever had. I spent the entire night in semi-consciousness, because I was terrified of rolling into her in my sleep and doing something I shouldn’t have. Not because being I thought being with another woman was wrong, but because I was married, and I don’t cheat. It was the same reason I was nervous about crashing on a guy friend’s house after a group of us had gotten back from a road trip that my husband wasn’t able to go on. I was attracted to him and even though I was going to be on the couch and he was going to be in his room, we were alone, and there was temptation to act on that attraction.
This is why I believe sexual attraction tends to be inherent. The fact that I was married didn’t stop me from being attracted to either of my friends. It didn’t stop me from wanting both of them. But the fact that I am in love with my husband and would never willingly do anything to jeopardize our marriage made me not act on those attractions.
However, if I had been single, I probably would have jumped them both. ;)
February 21, 2014 at 6:53 pm
bob says:
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BS:
I honestly would not have guessed your gender. You’re more gender neutral than anyone I know. That’s a side comment, moving on:
Just disregard almost everything I said and look at it this way and it’s really very similar in all aspects, not just sexuality.
When your kid hits a wall is it because they like hitting the wall? I’ve seen kids do it and laugh, and grow addicted (my niece). She’s hitting the wall because of other factors that make her subconsciously think hitting the wall is what she wants to do. When you work with a kid, you usually have to work indirectly to help. If they are upset chances are they haven’t eaten.
People are the same sexually. If you’re upset and crying, your sexual hungers will change. If you lack a certain type of relationship, you might seek it in a lover.
If you look at what you just said, you got jealous when two female girls kissed each other. You were reacting to environment. The fact that you felt jealous doesn’t mean that you being gay is what caused you to be jealous of the two girls. You could very easily have a factor you don’t understand, where you are slightly detached from both genders, and as such focus on the sexual more with both genders as opposed to a more complex relationship (sex in relationships is not complicated. It’s easier. I’ve gone through this and so have you, it’s easier to have a relationship where you want to @%@@ someone, than if you want to be compatible and do things together and common ground. Sex is easy common ground for some people, and they want an easy connection, ergo with you, you might have wanted an easy connection through sex with both genders. You probably just wanted to be close to that girl).
My examples explains people who change. Your example doesn’t explain that away, other than saying they weren’t gay. Let me assure you, I loved doing the asses I did. Pardon the explicit wording. Other people who were gay were the same. Then they realized they were lacking something and that’s why they did the ass. They wanted a connection they didn’t have. They didn’t understand heterosexual love advantages, just like a neutral person doesn’t understand why they should date one gender. It’s still damage. You would understand if you went through the change. It should state something that you translated the kiss to the relationship, the impulse to the relationship.
That impulse is like the child, an impulse from an underlying issue. A result of some emotional experience. It is not the proximate cause. Impulses come from emotional experience.
February 24, 2014 at 12:27 pm
Libby says:
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Bob – I have never had my sexual urges change if I was upset, crying, hungry, or mad. That to me, just doesn’t make sense. Sometimes when I’m sick, I’d like to be cuddeled by my Mom because she always did that when I was younger, but it didn’t make me want to have sex with a woman.
As far as change, everyone goes through changes. Some, I think like you, more than others. I went through several years of therapy and totally changed my relationship with my mother for the better. I did that because it was causing me pain and I wanted that to stop. But it didn’t affect my sexuality or my relationships with women.
I think you had more than your share of trauma growing up, including sexual trauma, and you are using those to base your conclusions on.
February 24, 2014 at 2:41 pm
bob says:
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Libby,
I’m using them well, as they should be, objectively. My brother with a psychology major agreed with the break down, especially because people all too often ignore what studies say.
For example: Sexual appetite changing when you are upset, stressed, etc, is actually a factual thing that you can’t deny Libby. No one has ever tried to link those studies to sexual appetite for gender to date.
But the important thing to note, is if I as a human react that way it’s because humans react that way. And the people I mentioned were always the same.
I’m a bit of an everything Libby. I can relate to any section of humanity. Because of this, if I ever get to know someone, I can often figure out what made someone a certain way before they know themselves it does. The gay people were no different.
Even running into 1 person that met the criteria would disprove the being born gay system. That system cannot explain the people who change. It cannot explain evolving and changing fetishes. Environment and psychological behavior can. And it does with every person I’ve ever met.
February 25, 2014 at 8:51 am
Libby says:
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Bob: If you have met “gay” people that changed, that means they weren’t gay to begin with. Or it means they are trying to be something they’re not.
As far as fetishes changing, I could see that I guess. I don’t know because I don’t have any what I would call fetishes. But I know what I’m attracted to sexually is what I’ve always been attracted to sexually. But that’s just me.
February 18, 2014 at 4:12 pm
Take a Step says:
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“…court decision based on non-science.” What does science have to to with equality and marriage?
Funny you should ask, my roommate in the service was gay. This was back during the Viet Nam years before don’t ask, don’t tell. In the evenings he went his way and I went mine, neither of us ever brought any over-night guests to the room. We are still friends but friends can disagree – don’t you think. Also I never had a big brother and my older cousin filled that role. I love him but do not agree with his gay lifestyle, he just got married to his partner. Alright I’ve given you an answer now provide that “proof” to support your argument and forget the emotional appeal I don’t buy it and there’s no way to argue against a person’s emotions.
February 18, 2014 at 4:53 pm
Libby says:
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I can’t provide scientific proof, because I don’t think there is any. That doesn’t change my opinion, though. I don’t think it has anything to do with the argument for marriage equality. If you’re gay, you’re gay. It doesn’t matter what made you that way. And if you’re in love and you’re gay, you should be allowed to get married the same as anyone else.
February 21, 2014 at 2:22 pm
Bob says:
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BS:
I put reply to you in the right spot technically, whereas it is the wrong spot because you put yours in the wrong spot ;)
No worries. This thread is way too long and way too hard to reply in the right section!!
February 21, 2014 at 12:57 pm
BS says:
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Bob:
I don’t disagree that human behavior is environmental. However behavior is different than intrinsic nature. Yes, I do believe that certain things are ingrained in our DNA. For example, eye color, sexuality, and even violent tendencies to some extent. You can’t change any of them. You can only change how they are perceived, or how you act on them.
You can’t change your eye color from blue to brown. You can put in colored contacts and they’ll look brown, but underneath, they’ll still be blue. Even if you wear them every day and no one ever sees you without them. Even if you wear them so much that you think of yourself as brown-eyed, underneath, they will still be blue.
People with violent tendencies have to make the choice of how they want to behave. They can act on those urges and hurt people, or make the conscious decision not to. Sometimes they don’t succeed in controlling their urges, and end up plowing into another car in a fit of road rage. But more times than not, they’ll just yell, drive by, and flick the other driver off. It doesn’t mean that the violent tendency isn’t still there, it just means that they just made the choice to react in more socially acceptable way.
I believe sexuality is the same way. Every person is born with a specific orientation, causing them to lean one way or the other (or sometimes both ways, but that’s a whole other discussion. ;) Each person makes the decision on how they want to act on that orientation. Most people act according to their orientation. Others may choose not to. And that’s OK.
If a lesbian decides that although she’s attracted to women, she wants a ‘traditional’ family and decides to marry a man and live as a straight woman, that’s her choice. It doesn’t mean her orientation has suddenly changed. It doesn’t mean that her attraction to women has gone away. It just means that she’s chosen not to act on those attractions. If that works for her and she’s happy, then that’s great for her.
I’ve re-read your comments. Please forgive me if I interpreted you wrong. I SWEAR I’m not trying to poke at you, but from reading into your comments, I get the impression that you might have done something similar? If that’s the case, and you are happy, that’s great for you. It must have been difficult, and I don’t think I could do it, myself. But if it works for you and it makes you happy, that’s all that matters.
But not everybody can do that. Not everybody wants to. And they shouldn’t have to.
Since when was saying what people enjoyed, and using philosophy as to what people consider to be normal, a form of finding out what a perfect being wants for mankind? I think it’s the worst measure you can possibly use, and you use it a lot.
Some people get turned on by Car porn. Yes. People having sex with a machine. Some people get turned on by pissing on their partners.
I’m not saying any are alike to homosexual sex. In fact, biblically I tend to think that homosexual sex is actually a sin for a reason that most people don’t understand, and one that you never will admit because you refuse to acknowledge certain things in life:
Men and women are different. They are intricately designed to fill in for each other’s flaws and weaknesses. I am sorry to say that it is not just the penis and vagina fitting. I’m sorry but women are just naturally better with kids. Mother’s milk and breast feeding is something every kid should have, and it has properties that cannot be mimicked. The family unit was designed by god if you believe in god, and depriving someone a family unit, is in actuality, the reason why it is sinful. A good woman keeps a man a man. A good man keeps a woman a woman, aware of both gender’s unique differences. This also affects how they treat opposite gender. When your primary significant other is same gender I’m sorry Libby, THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. It also usually doesn’t happen until you get married and have kids. If you didn’t have the experience when your life changed when you realized your life partner was amazing, and that didn’t affect your view of the opposite gender, and your kids didn’t make you bond more with all humans, well then, you missed out on what it’s for. Everyone I have ever seen grows from it. As it turns out, God wants us to grow less selfish. Not more so. To understand the opposite gender, you have to wake up with and live with the opposite gender intimately.
Read the bible as a side comment. Sexual immorality is defined to be a sin mostly because it is a sin against oneself, depriving oneself the union of one flesh, with one person, and that connection for life. Peter specifically talks on it.
The reason homosexual behavior is considered to be bad is also quoted to be laying with a man as you would a woman as a side comment. So I think the book is clear that it isn’t the sex act, as you cannot have sex with a man like you can a woman, unless you have sex with the woman’s anus. The bible explicitly talks about anal sex with women at other sections, so your argument that anal sex is done by both heterosexual couples as well ignores why it might be wrong to partake in homosexual behavior. It didn’t say thou shalt not lay with a man differently than a woman. It says as you would.
The bible implies men lay with women in anal sex, like men lay with men, anal sex.
But that the gender difference is the problem.
Thous shalt not lay with a man as you would a woman, it is abomination. Again, the sex act there would have to be anal sex for both, but for one it is wrong. It has more to do with the union of one man and one woman, intimately, to grow, for life. You will not grow as much with someone of the same gender. If you are unwilling to admit this, you are lost.
Bob – you make the assumption that I give a crap about what the bible says. I don’t.
February 20, 2014 at 3:10 pm
bob says:
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Fair enough Libby, I won’t include the bible any longer. I’ve just seen you go after it a lot.
Moving on: True. But nothing teaches you like having a partner of the opposite sex. Deny that and you’re just out of your mind.
When you have a bad relationship with a woman, it can make you hate women for years, or vice versa. What you think of your relationship with your significant other, how much you get to know them, and your parents, is the only way to respect them the most.
Empathy is learned. It does not pop out of nowhere. And there is no way to be more empathetic than to have a lover or a parent. No friendship will ever, ever, ever, influence your thoughts on opposite gender as much as those two things.
As such, having a same sex relationship, you will be more regressive, and more apathetic to opposite gender. It’s just the way the world works. No matter how much you say people can learn in a myriad of ways, no way is as close as a parent and a lover.
I was damaged. I hated women due to my mother. I experimented with men. A woman fixed me. My daughter fixed me. They are why I can respect women. You remove my mother from my life, who I finally fixed my relationship with, and then remove my wife, and or my daughter, and I would never, ever, ever, be capable of understanding and empathizing with them and I would never have become a better person. And you should know this is true with every human being. People who do not participate in opposite gender relationships, and especially who don’t have opposite gender parents, cannot be as understanding of the opposite sex, unconditionally.
February 20, 2014 at 3:29 pm
Libby says:
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I don’t know if I agree with your conclusion. I know you base it alot on your own experience, but single parent children can have healthy relationships with both sexes.
Just as you can not see having a same sex relationship, gay people can’t see not having one. It’s what they are attracted to in a romantic ans sexual way. But it doesn’t mean they can’t appreciate, respect, and have intimate relationships with people of the opposite sex.
February 20, 2014 at 6:45 pm
bob says:
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They cannot have the same experience and connection to both genders, without an unconditional love with both genders. End of story.
Any friend you know could leave. You know your father and mother will not. How you think of the opposite gender is primarily parents, and lovers. End of story. Accept it, move on.
You can do something without it being what is best. Plenty of people have one gender of parents and “seem” fine. They would be better with two.
February 24, 2014 at 12:02 pm
Libby says:
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Bob – I understand your comments are a result of your personal experiences, but not everyone had the same experiences you did and would not necessarily react the way you did.
I believe you mentioned something about your grandfather in past posts. I think this had more to do with your so-called “fetish” than hating your mother.
I know many gay people that had both parents and a loving and supportive upbringing. They do not have trouble relating to either sex and are still gay.
Many people experiment, as it sounds like both you and BS have done, but are still mainly attracted to one or the other sex. That makes you heterosexual but open to sexual experiences with the opposite sex. It doesn’t make you gay. Gay people are still mainly attracted to same sex but may experiment with the other sex.
The reason is because being gay is about much more than just your sexual partner. It’s about who you feel those romantic feelings for and who you want to grow old with. All those things that make a marriage a marriage. It’s not just about having sex.
February 24, 2014 at 12:37 pm
Libby says:
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“People who do not participate in opposite gender relationships, and especially who don’t have opposite gender parents, cannot be as understanding of the opposite sex, unconditionally.”
You had a horrible relationship with your opposite sex parent. That did not help you to understand the opposite sex, it helped you hate the opposite sex. You did not learn to love unconditionally because you had an opposite sex parent. It caused you tremendous pain and self-loathing throughout your younger years.
I’m not convinced now you truly understand the opposite sex, anymore than I do. It’s hard to understand someone that thinks totally different than you do. We try, but we really just mutually exist.
February 20, 2014 at 12:07 pm
bob says:
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Libby,
You argue with what it supposedly teaches with conservatives.
And you argue incorrectly.
Moving on: There were philosophical arguments in there I noticed you didn’t direct, and it’s because you refuse to. You are just as blind as the conservative right.
What say you about learning the intricate intimacy and bond of the opposite gender? We are different. If you aren’t intimate with the opposite sex, how do you learn to respect the differences as well as someone who does?
If you have two same sex relationships, how do you learn the same thing? Unconditional love toward both genders?
You don’t. That’s the way it works. Studies already show that most people marry people like their parents. Why do you think that is? That they didn’t respect the opposite gender most in their parent? They didn’t learn the most in their parent?
It didn’t say they married the person most like their uncle, or close friends who were the opposite gender.
It is clear that this world was designed in such a way that a family unit, one man, one woman, helps ALL society, whereas gay behavior does not, keeps one regressive, and more apathetic.
Should read if you have two same sex parents. Sorry.
February 20, 2014 at 1:05 pm
Libby says:
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Bob: People learn to respect both sexes through a myriad of ways. Many of my gay friends are much more intimate confidantes than any man could be. Many of my lesbian friends can build a shed and install the electrical the same as any man. Intimacy is more than just sex. And unconditional love doesn’t just come from a man/woman relationship. To tell the truth, I think that is usually only between a parent and child.
Speaking of which, gay couples can not create a baby together, but they certainly can through artificial insemination &/or surrogate. They can have the same type of family unit you have with your spouse and children.
Since I am married, but have no children, is my family unit inferior to yours? Is it less valuable? I have a niece and nephew I absolutely adore, so I have experienced that relationship you describe. Is my experience less than yours?
BTW, I do not think I argue the bible’s teachings, since I think the bible, overall, sends a good message. But I do argue people’s interpretation of the bible’s intentions.
February 20, 2014 at 3:23 pm
bob says:
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The fair enough comment was supposed to be down here.
I never thought to combine the two things I mentioned.
That was hilarious!
February 18, 2014 at 5:17 pm
Take a Step says:
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Tabula Rasa. Nature vs. Nurture. Are people born that way or is it learned behavior? Is there scientific proof? None of that matters.
What matters are there are many same sex relationships that are not afforded the same benefits as a heterosexual relationship and they should be.
Can someone please explain what exactly this has to do with I-N-S-U-R-A-N-C-E?
I am trying to keep my mind clean so comme’on IJ, when I visit an I-N-S-U-R-A-N-C-E website guess what I am looking to read about, correct, I-N-S-U-R-A-N-C-E only related topics ONLY. For non-sense stuff like this I would go other to sites so please keep it classy and I-N-S-U-R-A-N-C-E related.
Does anyone have a non-religious reason to be against gay marriage?
Freedom of Religion = Freedom from Religion.
If it’s procreation, then all heterosexual people must verify they are fertile to get a marriage certificate and are required to have children within a certain time period, say 2 years, of getting married.
Since gay couples do have children, where are they coming from? They are adopting children no one else wants or are being put up for adoption instead of being aborted. How terrible.
Jack, we’ve had this discussion before. And, as I said the last time you used this argument:
Yes, in the United States, MSM is the group that is the most affected by HIV/AIDS. However, globally, there are more women than men infected. And, the vast majority of them contracted it through heterosexual sex. Among young people aged 15-24, the HIV prevalence rate for young women is twice that of young men. (http://www.amfar.org/)
No matter how much you may want to believe otherwise, AIDS is NOT just a ‘gay’ disease. So, stop with the AIDS = gay-only argument. It’s not true, and it’s a pretty pathetic argument against allowing two people to get married.
Oh ye of such low intelligience. Scientific research indicates HIV (which causes AIDS) was passed on to humans through African chimpanzee monkeys; most likely hunters. You’re a hunter, right? You could have brought AIDS to the U.S.
“It has been known for a long time that certain viruses can pass between species. Indeed, the very fact that chimpanzees obtained SIV from two other species of primate shows just how easily this crossover can occur. As animals ourselves, we are just as susceptible. When a viral transfer between animals and humans takes place, it is known as zoonosis.”
February 20, 2014 at 2:12 pm
BS says:
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I know you desperately want to believe it, but, it’s just not true. Globally, more than 35 million people live with HIV/AIDS.
There are approximately 1.1 million with it in the states.
25 million of them live in Sub-Saharan Africa. And 57% of those 25 million are WOMEN. Women who did NOT HAVE MSM SEX.
Yes, MSM is a high risk group. I’m not arguing that. But worldwide, women make up more than half of all people living with HIV/AIDS. Women who are not having MSM sex. Women who caught it by having HETEROSEXUAL sex (whether consensual or not) with their partners. So, to say that AIDS is a gay-only disease is ignorant and once again, not a valid argument against same-sex marriage.
February 20, 2014 at 3:38 pm
jack says:
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MSM causes 65% of AIDS cases but your ok with it. KILLING THOUSANDS
Less than 2% of gun deaths are from high capacity rifles- you want to ban them
Enjoy your anus and I’ll enjoy my 30 rounds. :)
February 20, 2014 at 3:49 pm
BS says:
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If over 50% of people infected by HIV/AIDS are women, exactly how does that equal 65% MSM? You might want to re-check your math.
And, once again comparing apples to shoes.
Please try again.
February 19, 2014 at 3:16 pm
txmouthbreatherboogereatertx says:
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We need to stop recognizing marriages #3 and up, any wedding that took place at a NASCAR track or the Tilt-A-Whirl at Six Flags over Texico, or where the big wedding gift is matching Camo Rascal Scooters with gun racks and balls hanging from the back. These events are bogus and are mutating the gene pool. Are you going to start hating people that are born with three eyes? It’s evolution BABY! Seems like most of those opposing equality for all are the sex, drug, alcohol, and gambling addicts also known as Born-Agains that will do anything they can to make themselves feel better than then swill that they are. Who cares that Adam and Steve are bumping uglies in their bedroom. I’d be more worried about the moral fabric of Cletus McJimJack IV who has been married to Tammy Jo, Bobbie Sue, Blanche-Jane, and Tammy-Rae, who can’t stand the thought of being alone, and has all his exes names tattooed on his arms that he did with a bic pen and razor blade.
One of the last stands of the anti gay marriage crowd is the “protect the children”
Some onservatives are terrified that their children will learn that kids of gay parents and the parents themselves are great people
BTW my 12 year old granddaughter’s best friends are two children – male and Female, inter- racial, adoped by a lesbian couple neighbor
Yet until 1967, when scotus trashed the last 16 of once 41 states with miscegenation laws, my daughter’s marriage to a Japanese national would have been illegal where she lives in the midwest
“The court’s reasoning,(In regards to Striking down Virginia’s Gay Marriage Ban) however, would permit nearly every relationship to be a marriage so long as it is grounded in choice and emotion, yet that’s not what marriage or true liberty has ever been.” said Byron Babione, a lawyer for the pro-ban group Alliance Defending Freedom.
How does this make any Sense? So he is saying that any Marriage grounded in The option to choose your Spouse or feel emotionally connected to that individual is not part of a marriage? And also Choice and emotion Have nothing to do with True liberty ie Freedom??? Sounds like Sharia Law Byron Babione.
In regards to civil unions. . . they are not legally equivalent to a marriage and not recognized by everyone. Google the difference and learn for yourself.
Don’t believe I ever said they were equivalent. I would argue just the opposite. It’s just that there is a precedent for separating a marriage and a legal contract to obtain benefits. So why the push to change the definition of marriage?
1. Civil unions are not recognized in every state.
2. No FMLA is available to a civil union spouse.
3. They cannot enjoy the tax benefits of filing married.
4. Their spouse cannot be sponsored for immigration.
5. They are not entitled to inherit all the assets of their spouse.
Marriage is only a word. What difference does it make if you share it with others? You’re ridiculous.
Gay people want to have the same traits/benefits as you do. Many are religious and want that same commitment you have with your spouse, in the eyes of God, the law, and the world. That in no way takes away from the sanctity of your marriage with your spouse. It only allows others that same joy only heterosexual couples have been able to experience up until now.
You fundamentalist “Christians” are good at picking and choosing who gets what; which rules apply to whom. Funny thing, everyone but you ends up on the short end of the stick.
February 25, 2014 at 3:02 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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They can. They have the same right as every other American to marry someone of the opposite sex and receive those benefits. No one is denying them that. It is their choice (there’s that word again) to not do so.
I have no doubt many are religious, but that doesn’t mean they are Christian. Atheists are religious. Many terrorists are religious. Green Bay Packer fans are religious. Being religious is not the key.
You’re right that them wanting what I have with my spouse does not retract from what I have. They just will not be able to find what they are looking for in a homosexual relationship. It’s not something any law can give. It’s only found in a relationship approved by God.
I know you are lumping me in with all those who claim to be Christians, yet are not. However, true Christians don’t pick and choose which rules apply, they are already set down by God. His rules are pretty straight forward and have not and will not change for all time.
If you review global history, I think you will find that Christians often end up on the short end of the stick.
February 25, 2014 at 3:39 pm
Libby says:
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You are so indoctrinated into your small-minded idea of what God is that there is no talking sense to you. Yes, gays can, and are, Christian. Many probably better than most heterosexual “Christians”.
Your intolerance is ignorant and your statements about Christianity arrogant. An arrogant ignoramous is a very dangerous creature.
February 25, 2014 at 6:25 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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There you go with your insults again. Feel better?
My idea of God is the exact opposite of small-minded. He is so vast He is uncomprehendable to us, and he knows this, which is why he provided his Word. You seem to think that you understand his will because its what you feel. That, by the way, is small-minded.
I never said there were not any Christians who deal with the temptation of homosexuality. Everyone has their weakness and the devil is sure to exploit what he can.
My statements about Christianity are straight from God’s word, so unfortunately, your opinion of God is that He is intolerant, ignorant, and arrogant.
February 26, 2014 at 9:13 am
Libby says:
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It’s not His word. It’s John’s, and Paul’s, and Matthew’s, etc. They regurgatated their memories of Jesus and his words. At best,they are Jesus’ words. Not God’s. Period. End of conversation.
February 26, 2014 at 11:59 am
Get your facts straight says:
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You keep saying “end of conversation”, yet you continue. I don’t mind continuing, so here’s something for you to think on.
Jesus and God are the same, what Jesus says is God’s words.
John 10:30 – Jesus states:”I and my Father are one.”
John 14:10-11 – “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.”
What the men you mentioned wrote was inspired by the Holy Spirit, which is also God.
February 26, 2014 at 12:49 pm
Libby says:
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There you go quoting that silly little book again. Was Jesus not a man? Are we not all children of God? Does not the Father dwell in all of us and we in Him? God is eternal, Jesus wasn’t. The reason he wasn’t is because he was flesh and blood like you and me. There is also his little caveat “or else believe me for the very works’ sake.” I believe Jesus was a person and I believe he was a prophet. However, he is no more God than Buddah or Mohammed.
February 26, 2014 at 2:45 pm
Get your facts straight says:
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You know just enough of the truth to have fooled yourself into thinking you have the answers. However, you are forgetting some very important details. Jesus was God taking human form. He willingly gave up some of his deity to become a sacrifice to save us, something we cannot do on our own. The Holy Spirit dwells within us after you put your trust in Christ. Jesus is eternal. Did you forget about the resurrection? The real reason we celebrate Easter?
February 26, 2014 at 3:21 pm
Libby says:
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For someone allegedly so educated, you certainly sound silly. Do you believe in little green men, as well?
What makes you think what Jesus said holds any more validity than Budda or Mohammed? Oh, that’s right. Your arrogance!
The Holy Spirit dwells within all of us. Period.
Jesus was a man. Period.
There was no resurrection. Period.
Jesus was a very devout Jew. If you truly understood the religion of the time, you would know Jesus did not want people to worship him, but to worship God.
For instance during his life, Jesus instructed his apostles not to bother with gentiles: “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans” (Matt 10:5). It was only after he died that the author of Acts decided to change that into “go and preach to all the nations”. It’s interesting to note that the apostles did not do that, only Paul took it onto himself to be an “apostle to the gentiles”.
He gave clear instructions that the law of Moses would never be removed or changed: “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” (Matt 5:18). Well, heaven and earth have NOT disappeared, yet Paul was soon preaching that the old laws were dispensed with.
Jesus was a Jew. He believed that he was the messiah, that is the god-anointed king who would take the throne of David and bring Judaea back under Jewish rule. All of this is perfectly in accordance with Jewish law – even the title “son of god” was a title given to the descendants of David.
Jesus would have been horrified to discover that he would be made into the central deity of a new religion after his death.
Because it fits the political whim of the day.
Stopping the exporting of our jobs, bringing our boys home, reducing the debt – no where near as important to the current admin as Gay Marriage.
Wow Bob. That is a lot of weight on your shoulders. You dont think it will do any good, but I will say a prayer for you.
Try it some time, you may find your self talking your way through issues. Works for me. Maybe you????
For the life of me, I can’t understand why this is such a big deal. Make it the law of the land and be done with it. Then we can all move on to more important issues of the day. It’s ridiculous.
I’d rather there be no law about it. Walk entirely away from it. Leave it to the churches, social organizations, individuals, sects, etc. For marriage, let people do whatever they wish as long as it doesn’t hurt others.
Except that marriage is a legal institution, so there has to be laws about it.
Well, if you want government involved, you may not like the result, much like yo don’t like the fax that it is not allowed in most states. And who describes it as a “legal institution”?
Uh, everybody. Some also call it a religious institution, but it is not always. It is always a legal institution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_the_United_States
Nope, not everybody, not I for one. You better re-read that article you posted Libby. It doesn’t state it’s a legal institution, but can have legal aspects and typically is legally recognized.
And you choose wikipedia to back your statements over the Word of God? That’s troubling when you claim to believe in God.
God has an opinion on whether marriage is a legal institution? Of course it’s legal, you twit. You have to obtain a license, someone appointed by the state has to do the service, and you have to legally terminate it for it to end. Which part of legal do you not understand?
What would you call it?
It’s not a “legal institution”. There have been marriages before governments and marriages long after current governments pass.
My marriage is a vow to my spouse, before God as a witness.
Then it’s not legal and your “wife” is not entitled to all rights under the law. She won’t be able to direct your medical care or decide your funeral arrangements. You should have made it legal, pal.
Yes, I have all the paperwork to have the marriage _recognized_ by the government. The point is that marriage in and of itself, is not always a legal institution, which is what you originally stated.
No papers, no marriage. Period. Otherwise, gays could be “married” without the paperwork. You’re splitting hairs anyway. It can be religious, but not necessarily, but it is always legal.
Sorry, but that’s your take on it, not mine, and not I suspect many others.
They have the paperwork without the marriage. I believe its called a “civil union”. So there’s a precedent for the two being separate.
You’re conflating Holy Matrimony with Marriage.
Holy Matrimony is up to the churches and the individuals. Marriage is a contract between two people that is recognized by the government. There would be no marriage if there were no contract, it would only be Holy Matrimony.
People may be confusing those two, but IMO the government doesn’t need to be recognizing anything. Why exactly do we need government to recognize marriage? For what? Tax benefits? For power of attorney and relate powers? other financial benefits? If you don’t think that people could do those things (and did before) without government recognized marriage being involved you are not thinking it through hard enough. Having government have the final say in who is entitled to perks through marriage is only letting the government get involved and more control over people/voters, they are in no way necessary.
I don’t disagree LiveFree, but until that changes everyone should be entitled to equal protection under the law.
Libby I completely agree. Equal protection under a law should be a standard virtue. But to me this movement in particular just leaves me wanting, though admittedly I am not gay so I am not directly effected, I understand why a gay individual would be passionate about this topic. But to me (prepare for analogy rant)it is like putting the cart before the horse, or treating a symptom and not the disease, or putting a Band-Aid on a cannon ball wound, or setting up a computer when you have no internet.
To say the law as it stands now is unfair/unjust is absolutely correct but the bigger issue is that the law exists for anyone (this case law meaning government sanctioned marriage). I would be more apt to take up arms with the gay community in this fight for equality if they were more able to see the government is causing (and capitalizing on)this problem of inequality and should not be the means to fix it.
Talk to the fundamentalist religionists in this country and to the politicians that they control. Those are the people that are preventing this from going forward.
The government probably needs to get out of the marriage licensing business. All the incentives and disincentives to be married or single should be removed. We should all be treated equal if we are married to a member of the opposite sex, maried to a member of the same sex or single. Whoever gets married should sign some kind of civil contract outlining the responsibilities of raising and supporting children, visitation rights, life/death decisions, separation of assets in the event of a dissolution, etc. I suppose the goverrnment needs to remain involved in decisions about support of children conceived out of wedlock as somebody needs to watch out for the most vunerable out there, but this marriage thing I think is time to step away from. Of course this will probably lead to polygamy, marrying your cousin, sibling, child, parent or possibly animals, but such is the path we’ve gone down. I really don’t care who people marry, I just don’t want anybody to get special treatment or be discrmibnated against for their choice whatever it may be.
Where you advocating these positions before gay people started fighting for their constitutional right to marriage?
If you weren’t, I have no interest in hearing your opinion now.
One man + One woman
One person + One person
One male person + One female person
After all, think about it, the former has a stick and the latter a plug so you can’t have two persons with the stick because you know, it wouldn’t work would it.
They both have a stick and a plug, Einstein. And don’t act like men and women don’t engage in some of the same sex acts that gay people do. You guys have hang-ups.
Libby,
That is irrelevant. Don’t lower yourself to that type of argument.
It’s also a gross way of looking at life:
HEY!! Straight people have anal sex too!
Do you really want to be that person?
His words, Bob, not mine.
Your choice to hold on to them, and attempt to make a valid argument of it.
Not at all. I was showing him that his analagy was inaccurate.
So in order to get married, you need to have a penis enter a vagina? What about the elderly male + female combo that meets and wants to get married, but never intends to have a sexual relationship? I guess they can’t get married, either.
You can be religious. And you can be accepting of gay behaviors. The two do not conflict, as you and Libby actually show. I actually tend to think that when this debate goes up the conservatives area actually less consistent than the two of you (my first compliment to you guys) but you’re still picking and choosing what to listen to in dangerous ways that leave you in charge of what’s what.
To Planet: You can’t be religious Christian (quoting sections of the bible as you have) and say that Jesus/the bible said nothing about homosexuality, without disregarding certain people who supposedly wrote the books of the bible (Peter specifically, who later said do you not know that neither the adulterers, sexually immoral, or those who participate in gay sex will make it in to heaven), which ruins the credibility of the whole book (We are talking the central character in the bible, barring Jesus, considering Jesus told this man that Peter was rock, and on this rock he made his church, and the jaws of death would never prevail against it. This was transference of authority. So if Peter said people who had gay sex were going to hell, that is as good as Jesus saying it. If you don’t believe Peter was a valid point in the bible, the whole bible is potentially wrong and you can’t use it in quoting like you have to date as a valid argument which you have.) You see others as the Zealots for following the book according to the book’s wants (scripture), I see you as the Zealot for re-writing the book according to your wants. It is far more dangerous to take control over potential zealotry and leave it in your hands than to leave it with the book. The book already says let he with sin cast the first stone. It also says that a you shall not condemn someone for something you do least god hold it to you. It’s good words overall. Even though it says gay behavior will get you in hell it gives you every opportunity to be in good graces with God.
Now I really shouldn’t be going over this because I’m more agnostic…But really, you claim yourself a Christian…And you really just are a control freak. You want control over what is Godly. I don’t. It’s part of why I’m not Christian.
Hey, bob, that’s a pretty good post. I also noticed your comment to Libby. Thanks for being nice. I’m worried that if I read the comments I’ll descend into the unprofessional behaviour like many others. So, thanks for staying on the high road.
BTW, I haven’t read any other posts. Two pleasant posts from you, bob, made me happy, so I’m going to bail now. ;-)
KY JW:
I’m trying. This became a venting area for me after some seriously traumatic things happened to me.
My fathers death was not the only one. After my father’s death I have mentioned my mother practically lives with me to take care of my niece. I have not mentioned she’s an extreme hoarder (think the show) that after my dad died the house was robbed, and she still hasn’t cleaned it up, and she let the whole thing go to heck, and is now hoarding in my house. She has filled a closet to the top! My sister doesn’t seem to mind that her kid is screaming and smacking walls and throwing controllers in my house, and it’s influencing my daughter, and my mother thinks it’s ok to leave Atenolol on the ground, and broken christmas ornaments etc. It has been hell!
Oh and if I crack pretty soon my wife was having a sexting affair, and I actually had to keep her calm about my knowing. She says she’s sorry about it, but whenever I show I’m upset at all, she says some boo hoo story about how she should just leave. Not what I need to hear when we have two kids.
I have not had a good few years!
Crap!
bob, I’m stunned. I had no clue your buckets are overflowing. (Not long ago, the director had a pep talk about people dealing with things from inside and outside the department. His analogy was overflowing buckets.) My overflow has calmed considerably in the past month.
I can relate to the parental unit going off the deep end. My dad’s dementia is really bad and now my mother is going down that road. I never expected to be my parents’ caregiver. My mom was always my rock. It’s really difficult to adjust. She’s not hoarding like you’ve described, but she’s not keeping their house picked up.
I know it’s none of my business, but if you’re niece is misbehaving in your house, you should correct her. Children learn by example and it’s very difficult to overcome a bad example. My children are mostly grown, so I actually do understand that. I have a young granddaughter and she behaves in my house. It’s not an easy fix, though. I will tell you, correcting someone else’s kid can get ugly. However, your sanity is what you and your children need.
Speaking of sanity, I’m not going to advise you on your marriage. That’s a lot to deal with and I can’t imagine how to help.
I’ve always been impressed with your intelligence, so I’m sure you’ll find a solution. Good luck! I really do hope you’ll be ok. I may not agree with you very often, but I would miss you if you weren’t posting here.
KY JW: What makes it worse is we just had our second kid a month ago, and due to her pregnancy depression I did a lot in the months she was doing the sexting to help her attitude. Date nights, sought out other parents with children so she could have a break from the kids at home, bought a second car which we needed, but made it her own personal choice as to which (I just negotiated price) and found things we could do together romantically and just normal days. I really thought I was doing a good job. Apparently not. I’m one of those guys who does quite a lot in my life. I also took two weeks off to stay at home and took care of both the kids while she recovered which was certainly hard. And through all of this, I haven’t even told her that I think less of her because of what she did. It is why I get so mad when people make assumptions of what type of man I am in regards to women.
For my niece: I try to correct her all that I can, but my sister is violent with my niece, and the father is absent. My niece is about 5, and she acts like a toddler due to it. Anytime Heidi accidentally does something, my sister hits her. For example she once tried to sit on my sister’s lap, and my sister hit her because it hurt. And it was out of nowhere to the kid. She does this often. My niece goes crazy from lacking attention from her mother, and she gets it by doing those things.
We’ve tried time outs, talking to her, and we’ve tried restraining. While I’m ticked off at my wife, she is extremely good with kids since she works in the system. We’ve tried many things, and even though my niece progresses it is only to a point without her mother and father. The kiddo practically lives with me, and was left for me for several weeks around christmas and new years. I wasn’t even asked, she was just dropped off. I still remember my niece asking on new year’s “When is my mom coming back?”.
It is heart breaking. I love the kid. But she’s also a nightmare.
Regarding the wife: I just don’t understand, she seemed to completely not be the type who would do what she did. I have basically just pretended it didn’t happen. When I say I show I’m upset about it, I mean something as simple as blanking out for a second will make my wife get emotional. It’s one of those “you think I’m horrible things”. Sometimes being emotionally unstable can be worse than being mean spirited.
bob, I am surprised you’re as together as you are, now. I wish I could tell you something that could help with your niece (or your wife). It breaks my heart when people hurt their children. The physical is bad enough, but the emotional scars are worse. I can’t imagine your niece has any understanding of what’s happening. To her it’s probably just pain or abandonment. Neither of which a child should have to endure. My heart goes out to you both.
I don’t know if anything I say would be helpful at all with your marriage. I will say sometimes no matter how much you love someone, you still want to hurt them. You may not even realize that’s what you’re doing until it’s too late. It doesn’t make sense – there’s no reason or event that triggers it. It’s probably some passive-aggressive need to test boundaries and make your partner prove their love. (being a raging passive-aggressive myself, I can say this from experience)
You nailed it, she’s passive aggressive. But she isn’t horrible, as I’m sure you aren’t either.
I handle it well in my personal life. If I’m ever angry I debate here, and practice dealing with confrontation in debates where I hold my strongest opinions with varying levels of success. Better practicing here than talking about my strongest opinions on what my wife did to start and resulting in a fight. For us I do different things, I don’t believe that negative aspects or conversations about what you believe someone did wrong helps. So instead, I find things to do like a game of truth or dare (semi adult version) but I play in the persona of my hand. It is hilarious. My right hand I have made into a face since the beginning of our relationship and he does things that are us things with songs, our kids, etc. She does the same. For example it asked what would you name an adult movie about our intimate life and I said “HAND tonio Banderas!” in a high pitched seductive voice. Or “Lick a message on to me” And I have my hand give her an awkward look, and lick her arm spelling out “HI!!!!” (the hand is supposed to be ADD)
I’m really not at all how I come across here. And Bah. She really was something special to me. This is going to be a hard road to recovery.
:) I’m working on the not being horrible thing. Some days, I don’t quite get there. Not sure why my husband puts up with me. Something that works on me (in moderation!) is calling me on my shit. The catch is NOT doing it when I’m beyond caring. :p
KY JW:
Oh boy howdy that starts things down hill in my experience, not just with my wife.
My younger brother used to tell me the psychological reasons why when he was still in college. I didn’t use to agree with him. I thought only by calling someone out could you fix something. Then I realized half the time you make them feel like crap and they get destructive rather than fix it, and the other time they reject what they did, and you for saying it. It’s a no win scenario!
bob, you’re right, it can get very ugly. If you need help interpreting passive-aggressive speak, let me know. ;)
Bob – it sounds like your wife might be suffering from some depression that could be related to her pregnancy. Maybe some couple’s counseling would help you both. Her to get over her guilt (which can stand in the way of your relationship as much as your anger.) And you for your anger and feelings of betrayal. I will keep you in my prayers.
KY JW:
You’ve done enough. Part of the problem is I hadn’t told anyone. I don’t want my family thinking lower of her.
I feel a little odd this is where I let that out. But your commentary has helped if even just for the sake of you being a passive aggressive person and I didn’t get into a fight with you just now!
Libby,
Thanks. I imagine you aren’t how you sometimes come off on this site either.
bob said “just for the sake of you being a passive aggressive person and I didn’t get into a fight with you just now!”
That gets an LOL! Sometimes strangers (and this place if full of strange people) are the best to unload on. I’ll try to keep that in mind next time you don’t like what I have to say. ;-)
My husband tends to be passive-aggressive. What’s helped is talking about outside of the moment, at a time when we are both calm and in a good place. Then we don’t get angry and I am able to explain my position and he his. It helps for the next time it happens. I either let it go, respond to it, or smile and say “There you go again!” Half the time we end up laughing about it – the other half not! LOL!
You know Libby, that actually sounds like my wife and I.
Interesting we have more in common than I initially thought.
I think most people do when they take the time to find out.
JW:
I thought you would find that wording funny :)
Just as a random side note:
The reason I didn’t want my family knowing is that she is very very liked by them.
My father said we were the best couple he had ever seen before he died. I used to hum random 80’s songs and she would without realizing it be doing the same song/thing in another room in the house. My brother would just say in between rooms “Hey, are you guys aware you’re humming the same 80’s song??”. My dad was very happy for me as well as my family. I would hate to ruin the whole family integration I have had with her.
It sounds like you still love her, bob. Which, actually, is a good thing. You’ll figure it out, and so will she. It’s just going to be an adventure! Good luck, I mean that most sincerely. :-)
2 consenting adult humans.
What about our friends in Utah? One man + one woman + another woman + another woman + another woman. What about Sultry Sarah P + One Michigan Basketball player + one Michigan basketball player + one Michigan basketball player + one Michigan basketball player + one Michigan basketball player. Pretty fab isn’t it?
Not any more, just as in the past until 1867 it was one white man and one white woman
Until 1967, in 16 sttates it was two people who had to be of the same race
Things change . We trashed segregation and now we are trashing segrregation of gay people from marriage
Dave,your next to last sentence outlines exactly why gay marriage is such a problem. Every standard that is relaxed results in more perversion.
Perplexed nailed it!
You obviously view homosexuality as a “perversion.” Why would God create it if it is a perversion?
God didn’t create it. There’s a difference between God doing something and God allowing something to happen. Man has perverted God’s intention for marriage to be one man and one woman.
Get your facts straight nailed it.
Jack, you just can’t stand the thought of 2 guys nailing it, can you?
Also – when did Jesus talk about homosexuality?
Oh, and separation of Church and State.
Oh, and according to The Word – no shellfish, no tattoos, and no mixing of fabrics! It may be tempting to be stylish while awaiting your Red Lobster Special, but it’s against God’s will.
http://carm.org/leviticus-homosexuality-old-testament-law
Advocate – Jesus wasn’t in the old testament. Read Captain’s post. He said when did JESUS talk about homosexuality? Not the bible.
Also, Devil’s Advocate, Leviticus is where you will find God’s Law against shellfish and fabric crossing, too. Still going to order crab legs while wearing and outfit which is not all made of the exact same fabric material? If you do, I say you shouldn’t get married!
Captain Planet, you apparently didn’t read the link I supplied about Leviticus. I am well aware that this is the book that prohibits eating shellfish and wearing mixed fabric, etc. The link I supplied provides the explanation as to WHY some religious people (some, not all) feel those particular prohibitions applied only to ancient Israel but not to anyone else, while the prohibitions against sexual immorality, including homosexuality, apply to all people in all times. Not saying I agree with that, mind you, just saying that’s a link that gives an explanation about it so you understand, even if not agree with, what they believe and WHY they believe it. (That’s where being a “devil’s advocate” comes into play.). That’s why using that book as a “gotcha” doesn’t work. It isn’t that some people are so stupid that they aren’t aware they themselves are violating teachings found in the Bible; it’s that they believe some of the prohibitions in Leviticus do not apply anymore, and some still do, and the link gives the explanation for that. Please kindly read it and don’t just look at the title and think you know what it says. Thank you.
God created everything.
Finally, something we can agree on!
Yes, God created everything, and when he did so, all was perfect as he planned. It was only after mankind chose to ignore God’s plan that everything began to deteriorate.
You can not ignore God’s plan. He’s God for crying out loud.
Yes, you can ignore God’s plan. If God says “do not lie,” and people lie, that’s ignoring God’s plan. If God says, “do not commit adultery,” and people cheat on their spouses, that’s ignoring God’s plan. If God says “do not steal,” and I take something that doesn’t belong to me, that’s ignoring God’s plan. It’s called “free will” and it happens all the time. He’s God, but He doesn’t force us to follow His plan.
Yes, you can ignore it. God created mankind with the ability to choose. It’s called free will. Something God did create.
You are exercising it now in your support for same-sex marriage.
There’s no such thing as free will. If God is everything, then everything is God. I don’t presume to know God’s plan for me, but I have faith in Him. God doesn’t make mistakes.
Libby, your comments about God are telling. They indicate a lack of knowledge that can only be found in His word. It is a wonderful thing to understand His purpose with this earth. I implore you to examine the scripture. Nothing can replace it. He has outlined a plan with this earth that will utimately end in Him being all and in all. If we want to have a chance to reflect His character we can only do it on His terms.
Perplexed – Please try to get out of the Middle Ages. God didn’t write anything. Man did.
And how pompous of you to think only Christians have an inside track to God’s thoughts and desires. I’m glad you find faith in the scripture, but for me it’s just a book.
I don’t presume to know what God thinks or wants. He is large-and-in-charge and I just need to do my best to honor him every day. And I do that by treating others how I would like to be treated. And that includes gay people.
There’s no such thing as free will? Really? Are we all robots then? And it’s all part of God’s plan? We can see in the world around us right and wrong, good and evil. Is murder, robbery, violence, war, not an indication of humans acting outside of God’s will? Surely those things wouldn’t be God’s plan, and they sure seem to be grievous mistakes made by humans. As for Christians being pompous, it was Jesus himself who said “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me.” We’re only telling others what He said. He wasn’t being pompous because He backed it up with His life, death, and resurrection. “God is everything” doesn’t make sense; God MADE everything, but he is OUTSIDE of everything he made the same way the author of a book or the painter of a painting is OUTSIDE of the book or the painting.
You have a very shallow image of God. I would encourage you to delve deeper in to the spirituality of Him. He is not some Man sitting up on a cloud in the sky looking down on us. He is within us.
And I will say it again for the third time. I do not presume to know God’s plan. Bad things happen for reasons we do not know and may never know. But I know God has a reason for them, because I trust Him. I have a very strong faith and as I said before God doesn’t make mistakes.
My opinion, not saying I’m right and you’re wrong. That is just my belief and you will not sway me as I will not sway you from your old-fashioned view of God.
Libby, Sounds as if you and Oprah Winfrey worship the same god. Yourself.
Unless He appeard to you in a vision, which hasn’t happened for hundreds of years, then you are speaking of something you don’t know anything about. The only way to know or “honor” Him as you say you do, is to read His word to find out how to honor Him. Unless one does that one cannot hope to serve Him in any facet of their lives.
How do you delve into God’s spirituality when you dismiss his Word as “just a book”? You are correct when God didn’t physically write it, but he did inspire the words through men.
You don’t know God’s plan because you have made the decision disregard what he has told you. We are not given the specifics for our individual lives, but his plan is plain to see if you take the time to look.
You say to have faith, but you have misplaced it in yourself.
Both of you are so far off the mark, it’s laughable. I have no faith in myself, only in my God.
You say the Bible, written by man, was inspired by God. Well, so was the Torah and the Koran and the Mona Lisa, and on and on and on.
You both are very narrow-minded. God is everywhere and in everything. Good and bad. Happy and sad. Because that is the nature of God.
I am happy with my relationship with God and am happy you are with yours. The difference is, I’m not sanctimonious about it and you are.
Narrow-minded? How do you figure? Because we don’t agree with you? I’m open to listening to others and discussing their ideas. You have yet to offer a valid argument that refutes what I believe. So far, you’ve offered opinions, but nothing to base it on. If you can offer a source other than, “that’s how I feel”, then please do so.
Of course it’s my opinion. That’s all it is for all of us. You can’t prove your opinions any more than I can mine. That is why they are opinions and not facts.
And yes, narrow-minded. “How do you delve into God’s spirituality when you dismiss his Word as “just a book”?” is a narrow-minded statement. It IS a book and you have no “proof” that it is God’s word, as it was written by man. It may have been inspired by someone’s ideas and faith in Jesus, but you have yet to prove he is anything other than a man. You have only your faith, belief, and, yes, opinion. And I have mine.
Wrong again. I have a text recognized by millions to be fact. And before you say it, yes, it’s also debated by millions that it’s not. However, I have a basis outside of my opinion for my statements. You however, do not.
The proof is in the Bible itself. There is not one thing in the Bible that has proven to be false. In fact, it validates historical events that are recorded in other artifacts. The Bible states it is the Word of God, so if it is not proven false, then there is only one option left.
WTF??? I say it’s not fact, but someone’s version of the facts. You can’t prove the bible is anything other than a book written by a few men. You BELIEVE it is the word of God. Your belief does not make it fact.
There are just as many other people that believe their religion is fact. But you so-called “Christians” are so arrogant that YOU have all the answers. That’s why you all make me sick.
You say its versions of facts, but a version of a fact doesn’t change that the underlying fact.
You used wikipedia before, so I’ll use that now. “A fact is something that has really occurred…”. I say the events in the Bible actually occurred. They have been verified by other historical documents that have been found.
And no, I can’t prove the Bible is the Word of God, that is faith. But yet, you cannot disprove that either, so at least consider its possible.
I do not have all the answers, but I do have a place to find them. You can find them too, if you’d take the time.
I have taken the time and I am strong in my faith, as you are in yours. I was without faith for many, many years. Now that I have found what I can grasp onto and believe, it gives me great comfort. I do not need to read the bible, koran, or any other document to find peace or answers. I am perfectly content in my faith and ask that you respect that as I will respect yours.
your type said the same thing about inter-racial marriage
No, my “type” has nothing against inter-racial marriage.
Your type did 50 years ago. Your type will soon get over gay marriage, too. You’ll just have to agonize over it for 50 years. What do you care what other people do with their lives when it has no affect on yours? Sanctimonious turd.
You know nothing about my “type”. You are placing me into a stereotype which you think is true for everyone who claims to be Christian. The sad truth is not everyone who claims to be Christian really are, and that is causing your confusion.
What they do does have an affect on my life. Everyones actions can affect others in ways they refuse to recognize. For me, it means we as a nation are rejecting God. Society is degenerating and this is only one of the symptoms.
There is no god and perversion the way you use the word only means my fictional sky king told me that it was icky.
You should be ridiculed for having such stupid beliefs.
If you do not believe there is a God, then why bother to refute what others believe?
You refute what I believe because it’s not in line with your beliefs. Why can’t he do the same?
I never said he could not do so. I merely asked why he bothered. I refute your beliefs because I am told to bring the truth to others. What you do with that truth is up to you.
Please keep your “truth” to yourself. I don’t need your form of the truth in my life. It is intolerant and judgemental. You sound like a follower of Focus on the Family or some other such cult.
You are one of those who need to hear the truth most of all. You’ve been deceived into thinking you’ve found God and you should stop searching. I encourage you to look further.
Yes, from a human perspective, the truth sounds intolerant and judgmental. The truth will be offensive. I cannot apologize for that as it’s not my message.
And though I don’t have a problem with Focus on the Family and would not classify it as a cult, I am not a follower. I base my faith on what I have read and experienced.
Me, too. Now leave me alone about it. You’re becoming very obnoxious in your proseltyizing.
I am curious if you have read the Bible – the entire Bible, or at least the Gospels?
Libby, I did read Captain’s post. He was also in his post talking about shellfish, mixing of fabrics, etc. I was directing him to information about why those things no longer apply, but the prohibition against homosexual behavior still does. I get tired of the people who think they have a “gotcha” moment with the canard about shellfish, etc. There IS an explanation if people would just bother to look for it and take time to educate themselves about Old Testament teachings. Ask my rabbi.
Fair enough, Advocate.
Libby,
Ok I know how you will react to this, and I am NOT saying that homosexuality is murder.
I am comparing the urge. People have urges to have sex. People have urges to have sex with same sex, other sex.
And those urges are often directly transferable to rapists and murderers. Murderers feel an urge to kill. We all have bad urges. When you have the urge to yell, why did god give you that? Why did god create bad things at all?
Your question is silly. God created free will so that we could choose to be good, choose him. He didn’t want drones. After growing up it is poetic when you think about it. Sit and think for just a moment about your kid. Your kid will spend their lives doing dumb things. And maybe you raised them right. Maybe you didn’t. How will you know? You back out, and watch. And every time your kid makes the right choice you are pleased. Does that mean you created your kid’s bad potential choices when they choose that? You might have encouraged it if you’re a bad parent, but you certainly did not create it.
You want your kid to choose the right thing, choose you, even when things are bad. And “god” wants the same thing (assuming he/it/she exists). It is actually imperative that we make that choice, choosing God without choosing him just because he wants us to. Choosing the right action because you know it is right is different than choosing it because you think God would.
This applies to the conservatives you are talking with as well.
None of you on here understand my point. Here is my view and I know it flies in the face of “religion”. But again, I don’t believe in organized religion.
My intial premise “God is everything or He is nothing.” You may or may not agree with that, but that is premise of my faith. If God is everything, that includes good, bad, happy and sad. I am not God. It is not for me to question God’s plans or actions. Sometimes people have to die so that others can live. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. That is God’s plan. He has one for me and I am just try to pay attention and let Him lead me. When I quit listening, I get myself in trouble.
So I don’t believe in books, rituals, churches (although I find them peaceful places to be), or in a “religion.” They are all irrelevant in my view. God is God. He is not one God, he is everyone’s God.
Again, I don’t need to be preached at by you “Christians” out there because I don’t believe what you do. I live my life with Christian values and I am a good person. I am not afraid of my God and he is not a punitive God. He is my Father and I am His child. He would not let harm come to me. So if something “bad” happens in my life, I have to search for the reason and learn the lesson.
Enough.
Libby,
I am not Christian.
Furthermore, then you do believe in Bad. You said why would God create homosexuality if it was bad.
There is Bad out there, and we all can be it.
Your premise was poor.
Everything that happens, good OR bad, is in God’s plan. I do not question his plan. He is in charge.
All you fake “Christians” out there thumbing this post down obviously think you know better than God. You’re all going to hell! LOL!!!
Libby,
Just because it’s all part of his “plan” does not mean one should live life as a murderer or go against what God wants.
It doesn’t mean one should yell at their wife, or beat their kids.
There is right or wrong. And saying you don’t know God’s plan to avoid making the tough decisions when it comes to right or wrong, doesn’t make you superior to a Christian who down votes you on a journal site!
Bob – I never said you should live your life as a murderer or beat your wife. When those things happen, people need to be punished by society. I just do not believe in God v. the Devil or Good v. Evil. It’s part of a master plan that I am not in control of. I can only control myself.
Libby,
By default, if you believe God exists, you should trust him more than society when it comes to punishment and what should/shouldn’t be done.
Regarding gay behavior on a note of how it can damage society and how the person doing it is actually depriving themselves a family unit with two opposite gender role models that will shape their kids on either gender, and denying themselves the ability to think emphatically of people of the opposite sex to the strongest degree by waking up with one everyday, they are doing something that may be socially acceptable, but if we go by what a God would want for us, and the family unit he set up, is something he doesn’t want for us to be limited to, or regress to. You view people who are against homosexuality as regressive. I view homosexuality a form of regressive conservative lifestyle, it’s just we have come as society to have a pretty twisted definition of conservative and liberal, very much twisted. My view of liberals included on that. I would prefer to not stay twisted in that. Wouldn’t you? Let’s both work on it eh?
Bob – I believe in a loving God, not a punitive God. And I don’t believe in heaven and hell, as sometimes it seems hell is already on earth. That is why I am for life in prison for murderers. That is truly going to hell as far as I’m concerned.
And I don’t see homosexuality as depriving someone of a family unit. They can have a family unit, just maybe not the one you described. But if they feel exactly the same was about someone of their same sex as you do about your wife, they should be able to marry the same as you are able to marry.
As hard as it is to imagine, they can love their partner with the same breadth and depth that you love yours. I know, because I have gay friends that have been together for over 30 years. Their relationship is the same as mine and yours.
Libby,
They cannot have it as I described, and clearly it was made the way I described for a reason.
Moving on: God deciding what is bad and good is better than leaving punishment to people.
I don’t think God looks at things as “good” and “bad.” They just are. And they are that way because that’s His plan. Again, if “bad” things happen, I trust God has a good reason for them. I do not question God’s plan.
While I believe marriage should remain between one man and one woman, I know that the worldview of marriage is changing. I do not disagree that all people should receive equal treatment under the law. The difficulty seems to lie in getting people to agree on what the law should be. Personally, I think “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is still a pretty good yardstick. If we could do that, we could probably eliminate a good many laws.
This movement has nothing to do with equal treatment because there is no inequality going on. All qualified men and women have the right under their respective state laws to marry as the law states: one man + one woman. The purpose of this movement is to change the definition of marriage. There is no definition of marriage under which you can join two of the same (of anything)together. In doing so, we are changing the foundation of society. There is nothing normal about it from a social, religious, or biological point of view. And as someone mentioned earlier, you cannot change the definition to fit one abnormal behavior without doing the same for all other such behaviors that people engage in.
InsuranceTax nailed it!
Tax, definitions change all the time. Remember when a coke was just a coke, a ho just a hoe? The problem is with treating homosexuality as a perversion &/or abnormal behavior and trying to relate it to beastiality and child molesting, which couldn’t be further from the truth. There is nothing abnormal about two people loving and caring for each other. Your disdain and judgement is what is abnormal here.
It’s not special protection. The constitution gives ALL US citizens equal protection under the law. Doesn’t matter if they are male or female. It doesn’t matter what race they are. It doesn’t matter if they believe in one god or many or none. It also doesn’t matter who they love.
Get over it.
I believe marriage was used as a shortcut to give legal status enabling people to participate in benefits originally intended to offset financial costs for forming a family unit to raise children. Of course not all married couples had children but the assumed sacrifices one would make for the purposes of procreation was the justification for spousal benefits. (Are you old enough to remember when families survived on one income – My how the world has changed since the 60’s.)
One of the unintended consequences of expanding a benefit class is the gradual death of the benefit to the detriment of those that still need the protection. Such as the extinction of defined benefit plans favorable to surviving spouses that have now given way to retirement contribution plans and decisions being made to no longer offer spouses access to company medical plans (The ACA may share the blame for this one).
The best course for private employers seems to be offering more income, in place of benefits, to its valued employees and the government should be increasing tax breaks to people raising the next generation of tax payers that will be the sole support of our social security and Medicare benefits.
As more government “defined” spouses come into the dining room the pie will just be cut into smaller pieces and soon there could be no pie left. No pie for you Jerry.
More tax breaks already are afforded families with children. I am married with no children and my taxes are much higher than they are for a family of four. I pay MORE school and recreation tax than they do, but do not get the benefit of their use. I don’t begrudge it, but it’s the truth.
There are many more benefits for being married than tax breaks. There are rights to decide medical care and funeral arrangements when that time comes. In the eyes of the law, you are afforded the highest status in regards to the other person. Even higher than mother and father. Longtime gay partners are not afforded the same status and that is wrong.
Your income tax may be higher as you have less refunds, but I’d guess the taxes I pay on groceries, clothes, etc, to take care of my family of 5 easily offset that.
Not likely, straight. I also pay taxes on groceries, clothes, and gas. The tax difference couldn’t possibly make up for the income tax I pay. And I don’t have less refunds, I HAVE TO PAY. So enjoy your hefty refund and think of poor schmucks like me.
Ok, let’s make this easy. You buy 1 coke – $.10 tax. I buy 5 cokes – $.50 tax. My tax is 5 times your amount.
And I pay as well. I don’t get 100% of the income taxes returned. I just choose to pay extra through the year so there is a surplus, rather than a deficit. Hence the term “refund”.
Well, we’ll never really know unless we compare tax returns now will we?
But the difference between my 33% net tax bracket and your net 15% net tax bracket can buy alot of cokes. It may even out, but I doubt it.
That’s a pretty big assumption to assume to know my tax bracket. It’s not likely we are going to trade tax information, and we aren’t going to be able to calculate all possible deductions/tax rules, but let’s see if we can keep find a reasonable comparison.
Given a person, such as your self, in the 33% bracket with no children. We can assume there is some other person out there who also is in the 33% tax bracket, but has a family to support. If there are 3 children in that family, and there is a $1,000 tax credit per child, that gives $3,000 off the income taxes the family will pay.
So, if we have a given amount to support an individual per month – say $500 – to purchase all necessities. We also have a given sales tax percentage of 15% – the same for you and for the family.
This totals $6,000 per year for your expenses and $900 for sales taxes. The family is paying $30,000 per year and $4,500 for sales taxes. $4,500 – $900 = $3600 more that the family pays for sales taxes.
If we then subtract the $3,000 credit, that leaves the family to pay an additional $600 that you did not pay.
Well, I just did a very simple calculation using a marginal tax rate calculator. $50,000 married filing jointly.
With 3 children = -$1,147 tax
Without children = $3,608 tax
I/we pay $4,755 more in income tax than you do. And I don’t know where you live, but 15% sales tax?? Even at 7%, you’d have to spend more than your gross salary on goods to come close to the $4,755 more I pay in taxes.
http://www.dinkytown.net/java/TaxMargin.html
You found a calculator on the internet and ran some numbers. What are the equasions used for that? Are they accurate? Up to date? How do you know?
I tried to walk through a simple example to illustrate there are other taxes than just the income tax to consider.
You’re hopeless. Yes, I found a calculator on the internet. They’re everywhere you moron. And did you notice the part where it says it was updated for 2014? You attack my source, which provides credible data, by presenting some ludicrous elementary example of you buy 5 cokes and I only buy 1? For one thing, I buy 2. And there is no way your extra 7% tax on consumable items in any way compares to the amount of additional tax I pay. It’s just a fact. I know they are hard for you righties to digest and understand, but they are, nonetheless, facts.
I also said I did not begrudge paying more, as that is part of being a member of society. But I don’t like some ignorant person trying to prove me wrong by pointing out how many cokes they buy. You’re ridiculous.
Hopeless? No, quite the opposite. I’m full of hope. That is why I continue this discussion.
And yes, the calulators are everywhere on the internet. Just because its on the internet, you assume it’s correct? I can throw one up in an hour that would refute those results. Which is correct then?
I used the coke example as you had mentioned cokes in a previous post and had an idea you might relate. I had thought you could grasp the concept I was talking about in general terms. I am simply presenting an alternate idea. Trying to broaden your mind, and you react with anger, frustration, and name-calling.
Further, you cannot credibly say something is a fact when the statement is your opinion. Just posting on a discussion board doesn’t make it so.
Now, back to my example, you buy two cokes, that’s $.20 tax, which is still less than the $.50 for five.
You’re hopeless because you are ignorant. I present credible data, which you have yet to refute in kind, that I pay $4,000+ more income tax per year than you do and you try to say your sales tax makes up for it? Do the math. $4,000/.07 = $57,143. That is how much you’d have to spend on cokes to even the score.
Tell me, do you get a tax refund? Because I sure don’t.
You provided plausible data. The credibility has yet to be established. You can’t say you pay more income tax than me because I never stated how much I pay and I have no plan to do so on a discussion board. I say you cannot base your claim you pay more just because someone gets a refund and you do not. Maybe you need a new accountant?
You only have to look at the tax tables, moron. Married no children v. married with dependents. We pay more. Lots more. I can’t tell you exactly how much more I pay than you do individually, but I can say as a whole we pay more than married with kids. Is that so hard to understand?
This is why conservatives husbands like keeping their wives home well after their children become school aged and no longer need day care. Extra dependents mean less tax liability, better financial aid packages for college, and all the other BS that we shouldn’t have to subsidize.
Apparently it is hard to understand because you still aren’t getting it. I’m not saying you may not pay more income tax. I’m saying there are other taxes that you should consider before you complain that you aren’t getting a refund. None of those taxes are on your tax tables.
Yes you did say that, and I quote: “Your income tax may be higher as you have less refunds, but I’d guess the taxes I pay on groceries, clothes, etc, to take care of my family of 5 easily offset that.”
Your additional sales tax of, maybe, 7% couldn’t possibly “offset” by additional federal and state tax – even if I paid NO sales tax at all, which I do.
And I wasn’t complaining about no refund, just stating the facts. You were the one that chose to argue with me with no basis in fact. Now, go away.
“Now, go away.” Really? I was about done with you as you have not validly argued your point, but since you insist.
Do you even read what I post, or take the time to comprehend what is written? You just quoted the exact thing I restated. Again – I am not saying you do not pay more INCOME tax. I am saying there are other taxes to consider overall.
Understand this time?
And it sure sounded like you were complaining about not receiving a refund as you stated – “So enjoy your hefty refund and think of poor schmucks like me.”
I have provided a basis for my argument, which you choose to ignore. That is fine, but ignoring and refuting are not the same thing.
That is not at all what you said. You said your increase in sales tax “offset” my increase in income tax and I say no way, pal. Now will you go away? Read your bible and leave me alone.
Nope, can’t go away. I’m not sure why. Normally, I don’t bother with posting, but maybe I’m supposed to get you thinking.
Anyway, if you’d re-read the posts, you see I said both things, which really are the same point, just restated.
You inferred that your increased sales tax somehow negated the increase I pay in income tax. Again, I say no way, pal. You fail to take into account that I, too, pay sales tax. You pay 2-1/2 times the sales tax I do (5 people v. 2 people). Considering I pay $4,755 more just in federal income tax alone, you’d have to spend $63,400 on taxable items at 7-1/2% to offset the $4,755 ADDITIONAL income tax that I pay. And that doesn’t even take into account that I ALSO pay sales tax on taxable items theoretically at the same rate you do, you just have 5 consumers to my 2.
You are trying to backpedal now and say that is now what you inferred, but you know it was and so do I. Married without children are supporting married with children. That’s just the way it goes.
No backpedalling required. If you review my calculations, you can see I took your sales tax into consideration. However, I did only list yours as a single, so I’ll give you that there are 2 to consider to the family’s 5.
However, the tax where I live is higher than the 7.5% you insist upon. That plus the fact that children’s needs typically cost more than an adult’s needs (needs, not wants, mind you), is why I proposed that your higher income tax could be offset by other taxes. Choose to deny it as I’m sure you will, but the numbers are there.
The numbers are NOT there. Whether your sales tax is 7% or 15% is inconsequential, as I would be paying the same rate if I were in your state. And since sales tax goes to the state, if anything, it might (big might) offset any STATE income tax we pay, but not FEDERAL.
Your argument is weak and you are really beginning to sound pathetic. Give it up.
You argued the percentage was an issue when I presented my calculations. I provided the calculations to show you that they do have the potential to even out, given the same percentage for all parties. Yet you still deny this.
Plus sales tax goes to state, county, city.
This will be my last post to you on this issue because you are obviously dumb-as-dirt. Even at a 15% sales tax, you would have to spend $31,700 on taxable/consumable items to even out the additional $4,755 I pay in federal income tax. That $4,755 was based on a gross income of $50,000. So, in other words, Dumbo, you’d have to spend your entire salary on taxable items (which groceries are not) to “even out” the additional $4,755 I pay in federal income tax. And that’s not even taking into account that I pay sales tax for 2 people as well. You’re argument is pathetic, you’re pathetic, and I’m done with this remedial math lesson. Go back to school.
Glad that was your last post as you have exhausted your arguments and again resort to childish name-calling. I guess I should move to wherever you are because, yes, there are grocery taxes here. If you ever tried to feed teen-agers you would quickly learn how the costs add up. Children also need much more than groceries and medicine, but since you have stated you do not have children, I can see where you would not realize that.
Since you brought it up, if there was only a way to prove my education level, you’d realize how humorous your suggestion I return to school is. Alas, I don’t expect you to understand.
Glad you don’t begrudge paying more taxes but you do receive benefits from the education of the next generation even if they are not your children.
There are legal remedies already in place – Most of your concerns can be put in a living will or other legal documents so you can stop waiving the bloody flag. Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, there’s no homosexual gene and no evidence of any physical differences – And if there are please present your proof as you are so quick to demand of other who post. This is why it is difficult for me to accept a court decision based on non-science.
Your opinion is not proof, either.
I disagree with your conclusions. Homosexuality is not a choice, it just is. You don’t have to like it, but you may not infringe upon the rights of others because you don’t like something.
Yeah. What she said.
But I will comment. Did you choose to be heterosexual? No, of course not. I find it terribly hard to believe that people would choose a path that would potentially alienate them from their families and cause them to be disdained and discriminated against by society. No-one in their right mind would choose that. Do you know any gay people? I do and they did not choose it. They were born that way, just as you and I were born heterosexual. Just because they are a minority doesn’t mean they are abnormal.
Libby, I expected a better response. I actually respect most of your posts (but do not necessarily agree with them) because you can back them with a credible information source. Sometimes I’ve wondered if you are really an insurance professional but rather an employee of a liberal watchdog group that troll blogs and websites to combat conservative opinions. When you get into the emotional “because it makes me feel good about myself”, I sure that you are a strong supporter of liberal talking points – the last stand for the liberal argument is usually the emotional appeal..
Nope, not a troll. But I am a liberal, hence my name. But I don’t do it because it makes me feel better. I believe in equality for all. If that makes me a liberal, so be it. I think that just makes me a good person.
But you didn’t answer my question Original. Do you know any gay people or would that just totally gross you out?
And what was wrong with my answer? You wanted me to provide scientific proof that homosexuality is nature not nurture? Can you provide proof that it’s not nature? Do you think people would choose a path that will bring them much heartache and pain in their life if they didn’t have to? I think that’s a pretty strong argument.
Proof its not nature – babies. We wouldn’t be around long enough otherwise.
Population control.
Population control in nature is handled by predators, disease, limited resouces (starvation). Which of these does homosexuality fall under?
I’m sure you would say disease, since you’re such a ignoramous.
Libby:
Homosexuality is not population control. We would have extremely high occurrences in areas with dense population (India) and when humans starve if that were the case.
If the body is modifying based on survival, starvation would be a primary factor leading to homosexual behavior.
Also, the rates would have to be incredibly high to be a viable form of population control. It would have to equal out the average of human children in a family without birth control. It was not uncommon back in the day to have enormous families. That would mean the gay population would have to be huge. Absolutely huge, if it were for population control.
It’s a form of damage. I’ve been around a lot of gay people. Why do you surmise gay behavior is so common in Catholic schools, or strict religious environments?
Why do you surmise, that the suicide rates are so high? It cannot all be social acceptance issues. Gay behavior is simply too accepted to be the case. Half the population agrees with the lifestyle, yet the amount of suicides, alcoholism, increased sexual partners, is something like 10 times higher. If there was an increase due to acceptance in society, you would have half the population influencing the rate, so the affect should not be 10 times higher. The math just doesn’t add up. All of the 50% could be against gay behavior and it wouldn’t cause that type of a spike, as the people could rely on 1 in 2 people being very supportive of your lifestyle since they see you as prosecuted. If I had to guess, 1/100 out of my 2,000 class mates were supportive of me when I needed it. The damage is likely linked to the behavior. This holds true with every gay person I have known. Just after my first girlfriend I nearly dated a girl with two lesbian parents. She said it felt like she needed a man, and a father. She felt accepted. She was never teased. She was extremely depressed, as were her parents. I also nearly dated another girl who told me about her gay experience. She said it was amazing to be part of the crowd, and the “we are free” thing. But she said eventually she realized her partners were always needing to be that way, part of the movement. They were more obsessed with that than their love. Watch videos of people who are gay. A third and fourth girl were bi. They said they wanted a family, and with a man and a woman it seemed expanded. Then they had a kid, and realized that they just set up a family that was far too hard to manage. They got depressed, got into drugs, got into alcohol.
When you watch the kids who get into these behaviors there is always some damage.
Population control remark was a joke, Bob. Your comment, ” Half the population agrees with the lifestyle, yet the amount of suicides, alcoholism, increased sexual partners, is something like 10 times higher. If there was an increase due to acceptance in society, you would have half the population influencing the rate, so the affect should not be 10 times higher. The math just doesn’t add up.” sounds good in theory, but it doesn’t pan out in real life.
1. Many gays grew up in a time when homosexuality was not accepted. This is a new phenomenon in society.
2. You may have 1 in 2 people being supportive, but if the 1 is your mother and father it makes a far greater impact than number 2, your science teacher.
Not all gays feel a need to be part of a movement. They just want the same thing we all do; love and acceptance. They’re no different than anyone else.
Libby,
I listed several groups for the reason that there are several types. Each of those was intentionally a different type. Did you not notice that? None of them was a one time occurrence.
Gay behavior support has not changed much since the 1940’s. The degree of voracity has changed, not the numbers of support vs against. You need to fix the error of believing this generation is more progressed than the last. The refresh is surprisingly similar among generations, and the each generation has defining moments.
Moving on, ok, in light of that your population control comment was actually pretty funny :)
If the one in two people was the father, and then they had a 1/2 ratio in high school (which is a great one) then they would turn out fine. You tell me that a gay person doesn’t have a click of friends in high school the majority of the time and you would have to be out of your mind. They have support. They had more than I did, certainly. They had more accepting parents than I did, certainly. I had one abusive father and one neglectful mother. I finally learned that complaining about it was exactly the problem. When you say your daddy didn’t accept you, it’s a form of rejecting your father. When you even say your father’s flaws it is a form of rejection. Many times, these kids are in the cycle that their parents created. I want my daddy to accept me the way I am. Would my daddy accept me gay? Why not? And then they become more set on being gay. They aren’t accepted by their dad/mom. They aren’t accepting their dad/mom, and the gay person is being accepting in their eyes. That’s not each occurrence, but again, I’m a lot more liberal than you think, and I have personally been through this. I pulled off a change with my father before he died. Having a horrible father and a great mother would be an amazing blessing. Have you ever heard of a violent male figure changing? I did it with my father. I would list exactly how, but this is why I do not accept the “I was teased” “I had a bad life” comments. I was teased worse. I was in a worse family. One of my furthest back memories was my father strangling my mother. It was not the only time. Not to say she deserved it, but she was absolutely horrible to him. They got into a cycle. Violence and abuse and neglect definitely has an affect on gay behavior, but to state that violence and abuse is why gay people are depressed and suicidal, as well as more likely to have more sexual partners and have substance abuse is ignoring what gay people actually have troubling them, and why they become gay. Canada has studied this. As support has gone up for Gay marriage, substance abuse has not changed. Suicide rates have not changed. Sexual deviance has increased if anything. These are signs of a depressed people and increasingly we are finding it is not from acceptance of being gay.
I care about these people. You think you do, but saying “We love you just the way you are, it’s all those other guys’s badness that we need to focus on!” is just perpetuating their family issues, making them more upset with their parents or areas where they aren’t supported, and is feeding into the lie that they are persecuted against, which likely had a lot to do with their depression to begin with. I would rather be told it was my choice, that I didn’t have to choose either a free life or respect from my parents. That I didn’t have to be at odds with my parents.
Libby,
That was poor wording, it should have said that violence and neglect definitely has an affect on someone becoming gay, but to say that the abuse and violence was BECAUSE they were gay is ignoring the plights of those who become gay. It certainly isn’t all gay people who go through this, but it has certainly been greater than half of the ones I have ran into in Seattle.
I would not call it a disease. It would have to be natural to be one of the three options. Since I’m of the opinion it is not natural, but a choice, then it cannot be a disease.
Getyourfactsstraight:
Are you talking to me about the disease?
I never called it such. I said there are a damaged people who are choosing to be gay.
In fact, I said I have no sympathy for someone who gets in a vicious cycle of my dad won’t accept me gay, why does he hate me? Then the dad goes my son is rejecting me because of these gay bastards, what the hell?
That’s an extreme example and not the norm, but you get the point.
Nevermind. I see where you said it.
These comments are hard to track.
Bob – I never said violence and abuse causes people to become gay. I think they are born that way. I said when your parents reject you because you are gay, that can cause self-loathing and depression. And just because you have a clique of friends or a supportive science teacher, doesn’t make up for the fact that the most important person in your life rejects you because of who you are. The one that is supposed to love you no matter what. Does support from others help? Yes. Don’t try to put words in my mouth, please. If you have a question about my comment, just ask and don’t assume.
Bob – Judging by my first post, there is not a 1/1 ratio of people accepting homosexuality. I have 40 dislikes and only 20 likes. Where did you find your statistic?
Libby,
The absolute majority of gay people are not born gay, and I sincerely doubt that it is possible.
It is environmental. How do I know? I have become close with many gay people, and the MAJORITY changed as I said. Not one was not damaged. And not one told me they were born gay. They told me how they were ticked off at how the media portrays it. The girl who was raised with two lesbian parents said her parents were more or less normal. But that anyone who said living with two parents of the same gender was the same as having a father and mother was out of their mind. The lesbian who said she got into it and realized that the people really were not about love so much as rebelling and being part of a crowd said that she was not sure any of her partners were lesbian, and she too was pissed at media for feeding into the fact that being gay made you against society somehow. The interesting thing is that the people I have seen remain gay get into drugs, and while studies try to blame social acceptance, again, IN SEATTLE I HAVE NEVER SEEN A GAY PERSON TEASED. Not once. I have seen it become a status that makes one proud, I have seen it become a means to a friend group and lifestyle where you can have no teasing at all whatsoever, a shield against a hard life, because this world is hard to everyone accept for gays in Seattle.
Also, if you don’t believe that half the population is ok with gay behavior you’re deluding yourself. Comments in a journal site is not appropriate for weighing the measure. Regardless, wikipedia has a collection of a multitude of site polls.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_of_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States
Well, Bob, we’ll agree to disagree. I have many, many gay friends and they all say they always knew they were gay. Many tried not to be, for a variety of reasons, but all said they could not sustain the deception.
I firmly believe gay people are born that way, but I have no scientific proof of that. Just my experiences with the gay people in my life over the last 40+ years.
It does not matter if someone was born gay or if something in their life happened that “made” them gay. We are talking equality for all and that includes the right for a woman to marry a woman and a man to marry a man. To have the same legal rights as a heterosexual couple and … Libby’s right. I never would have chosen to be gay. I was raised in the church. I was president of our youth group, served on the alter, sang in the choir, did volunteer work. I still have a love for God but I do not go where I am not accepted. Was I born this way? I believe so. I always knew I was different and tried to go against who I was for a long time. I never wanted to be ousted from society.
take a Step:
Have I once said that I am against gay marriage buddy?
Don’t get into a convo you don’t understand.
I have specifically said I’m ok with gay marriage, as long as the wording does not leave open for lawsuits with the church, removing tax exempt status of the church, or doesn’t restrict the ability to pay your church to fly out to Hawaii, since they would lose their tax exempt status for doing so.
The WA state law is oppressive toward religion.
I’m not into your political red vs blue crap, and I can already tell you’re on the wrong side of it.
Libby,
In your group of gay friends:
How old are they?
How long have you been their friend?
Were they destructive/still are?
How is the relationship with the parents?
I am insanely good at finding out “why”. There is always, a why. What you need to pay attention to is how many gay people change. The media doesn’t report on it. But it’s common. And then listen to those who do. If you know gay people who aren’t accepted by their parents, or perceive that, they will stay gay until they get over damage. Then they will get upset and question what they did.
If you know gay people who are young: They don’t know themselves.
If you know gay people who feel oppressed: They have not figured out how to stop rebelling.
You are basically not supportive of gays at all. You just say “it’s all a-ok” when that’s often not what they need to hear. They want you to find out why. They want you to be sympathetic. And more often than not, they want family. If they knew a hetero family was better than a gay family, they would choose it.
Bob – most of my gay friends are in my age group. I have a gay cousin, my sister’s ex-husband, a friend from high school and more recently three sets of lesbian couples that are friends. They are all well adjusted and totally cool with their sexuality. A couple have had substance abuse issues, but so have I. So what? It wasn’t because they were gay and all are clean and sober right now. They all knew they were gay. Two of them married trying to deny it, only to find out they couldn’t live with a lie. I see them as no different than me. If they need to talk to someone or they need support, they know I am there for them because that’s the kind of friend I am. We talk about everything.
Take a Step – I’m glad that you are comfortable with your sexuality. You are brave to admit it on this forum.
It’s crap like this that makes my blood boil. Being gay or straight is NOT a choice. Sexual attraction is NOT a choice. A person can choose how to respond to and act on those attractions, but they are still born with them.
To say that the majority of the gay and lesbian population chooses to love someone of the same gender because of a bad childhood or because they are rebelling is just another way to justify marginalizing them. It implies that LGBTQ people don’t really deserve the same protections and rights as straight people because they choose to be that way, and that they could simply choose to be another way if they really want those rights.
My cousin would give ANYTHING to be straight. He hates himself, and has tried to end his life a number of times. His family is not abusive. He’s not rebelling against anything. His folks (hell, his entire extended family) are supportive of him and just want him to be happy. But, he grew up with the Church telling him he was wrong and going to hell. He’s now in his 30’s and he still believes it. My cousin is an awesome guy. He’s smart and kind and not bad looking. He deserves to be happy, and to have someone who loves him. But he hasn’t even tried to have a relationship because he is so ashamed of himself. And that is so wrong on so many levels.
It’s NOT a choice. Who would choose to be harassed and beaten up at school on a regular basis? Who would choose to be thrown out of the house at 16 for getting caught kissing someone of the same gender? Who would choose to be attracted to someone that could get them killed just for walking down the street holding hands with that person? If it was a choice, who wouldn’t just opt for the path of least resistance and settle down with a nice, opposite-sex partner?
You ever think that maybe there is a high rate of drug use, depression and suicide among LGBTQ people because of people constantly telling them that they are sinful and evil? That maybe constantly being told that they are choosing to be homosexual and therefore wrong, might wear on a person? That trying desperately to change something that can’t be changed wouldn’t wreak havoc on someone’s psyche? I think anyone – gay or straight – who is constantly berated for something they can’t change would have similar issues.
Bob: I cannot believe you told me to stay out of a conversation that I do not understand. I live this everyday. I’m not sure how my comments could be construed as political so, let me clarify my comments have nothing to do with any political affiliation.
Libby: Thank you. I think you are very brave as well to take on this topic.
BS: I am sorry for the trouble your cousin is having. It is so hard when you instinct goes against everything you were taught to believe in. I hope your cousin gets some counseling. There are support groups. He may want to look up Human Rights Campaign’ website or look into locating a Metropolitan Community Church. That may be a better option since they can speak with him on a spiritual level. They have a website as well.
Okay, I have to leave this conversation for now to pick up my son.
BS:
And I’m tired of crap like yours, on something you don’t understand.
Did you see the post where I mentioned that I could not date a woman for an extremely long time? I didn’t out right say it. Maybe because I don’t want to talk about it.
I’m well aware of the crowds. I was in them. You weren’t. You’re an activist without a cause.
Take a step:
The conversation was not yours, you did not understand what we were talking about if you brought up gay marriage. Do not enter in talking about my positions on gay marriage. And don’t take some sob story about your gay experience thereafter. I am perfectly capable of seeing this. As I said above, I could not date a woman after my mother and my first ex. My crowds in seattle are the gay crowds. Damaged. All of them.
You think your religion hates you, which means you likely fall into one of the groups I actually mentioned. So who made you feel that way?
If you felt so bad why? Was it the religion, or was it that you just knew it was bad?
Start asking yourself tough questions.
take a step:
Moreover, why are you still Christian? Glutton for pain?
Being with someone of the same sex isn’t just “bad” cause the bible says so. I bet you find that trying to be straight was something that was righteous when you tried it. If you wanted to be straight to be righteous, and not for real reasons at all, that was your problem. Having been raised catholic I have all too often seen the “be straight because the bible says so”. Do something with the wrong motivation and you will fail. No one explains other aspects. Maybe you have problems relating to certain male traits for example. You feel you have to be a masculine male, and you don’t like it. You want to play with barbies. Then you try to date a girl, and you work out being completely not compatible. There are people like that as well. They say they always knew they were different. Yes. They were. And they were treated different. They knew they were different because they were, and as they were treated different they grew attractions due to not being normal. I agree 100%. Non compatibility with women. Non compatibility with women though is the whole point. When someone lacks the ability to be with a woman because they lack the ability to have a close relationship with one, do you think that being with a man will help their clear problems they have with women that made the feel alienated enough to not gain attraction?
BS:
Let me shorten it up:
Humans are environmental more than anything else. I am tired of people like you, who seek to label gays as being born that way.
I guess we are all ingrained in our dna? Urges to kill included. I’m sorry I don’t believe in your “I don’t have a choice in who I am” bull crap.
I have a choice in who I am and who I become. My environment affects me, and then I make choices.
DNA is not the source of who we are. People who are gay have factors that cause it, sometimes a choice, sometimes environment that makes them make the choice, but it can be changed.
BS:
Think back to your sexual attractions, and if you knew yourself, every single fetish comes from life experiences. Not DNA.
I know where my desire from anal sex came from, because I know myself well. I know where all my desires come from, it’s how I changed them. And I didn’t change them by changing them. I changed them by changing the bad areas of my life. As soon as I actually maintained positive areas of life, as soon as I lost certain fears, my desire for anal sex with my wife left. I wasn’t trying to get rid of that desire BS. It left when the damage did. I actually told her “I don’t want anal sex anymore…” when I realized it. I know how this works, the problem is that you don’t know yourself, and most people don’t.
Violent behaviors can be changed, especially on environment. I did it with my father. When we were kids he was probably the most violent male type you can possibly imagine. It turned out he just couldn’t escape the first few mistakes he did. Then they got worse. Then he couldn’t escape those. When I said what he did wrong I was rejecting his course to becoming better. Even acknowledging what he was restricted his growth.
Sexuality is not in DNA. When you form your life your desires follow it. Considering DNA doesn’t just magically change, this formation is because sexuality is learned in life, and is the bi product of your relationships (not just lover relationships) in life.
You like to say that if people change they were never that way to begin with, and you are wrong. I had these friends. I saw the change. I had the change. I wasn’t trying to change my sexual orientation. Like I said with Anal sex, I would never have said it was related to some damage before it changed. I loved it. It was the hottest thing in the world to me. I couldn’t be attracted to vaginal. I found the mucus disgusting. I was chemically not attracted to it. I thought it was because I wasn’t interested, so I put it on the back burner. I didn’t just try to want it as many believe. No. I fixed things in my life one by one non related. And as I did, suddenly I changed. I wanted to be with a woman. The woman coincidentally loved anal sex so it worked out. But slowly I grew connected to her, and I fixed other areas one by one. Until finally I just didn’t want anal sex nearly as much. I still like it. I just now have this thing for vaginal, which now I am attracted to it. And I know it has to do with the mental changes I did.
It is no coincidence now that she hurt me to no end, I am starting to feel the same way about vaginal sex and am switching back to anal. And when my relationships suffered or things I fought to get would go backwards, or I would want anal sex.
Pay attention to when you have fetishes, when they go away, and what not. It doesn’t happen in a day. It happens over years, so you have to analyze yourself consistently, rather than just saying “I am this way”. Very very few people actually do this. They fly by the seat of their pants. I have talked with others who made the switch. Much of it is that my friends often admire me and want to be like me. When I analyze, they analyze. And when gay people are around people like you, they follow after you and that mindset of “I was born this way”. Bring me around your friends. In 5 years these people will know what made their sexual orientations. And I bet half will change lifestyles, and gradually become more positive, and maybe half of that will turn straight. It happens around me all the time.
I know what I’m talking about. Science is not the driving force. And humanity is much more beautiful when you realize that.
Hi Bob,
Thanks for responding in the right spot instead of down where I mistakenly posted. :)
I understand your thought process, but I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I do firmly believe that a person’s sexuality is predisposed. Not necessarily gay vs. straight, but to varying degrees of hetro and homosexuality – like the Kinsey scale. I do think life experiences could cause a more fluid person to lean one way or the other. But, I don’t believe that something bad happening in a person’s life causes them to become gay or that removing that issue will ‘fix’ it. I just don’t see homosexuality as something wrong that needs to be fixed.
And I know you probably don’t want to hear my opinion on the matter, but I’m going to throw it out there anyway. I don’t know what issues you had and what needed to be fixed. And that’s probably a lot more information than anyone would want to get into on an insurance board. But, I don’t think there was anything wrong with your ‘fetish.’ To be honest, I don’t think it’s a fetish or that there is anything wrong with it. If you like it, and your partner likes it, I don’t see any problems with it. You should have fun and enjoy yourself.
I think that’s a huge problem in our society. Any sex (gay or straight) that is outside of the traditional missionary-position-with-the-lights-out by a straight, married couple tends to looked at as dirty and wrong. Or at least as naughty and something you need to whisper about and maybe be ashamed of. Maybe I just have a really open mind when it comes to sex-type things, but as far as I’m concerned, as long as all parties involved are consenting adults I don’t see anything wrong with whatever they might get up to in the bedroom.
BS:
I don’t find anything wrong with fetishes. I can see where your problem lies in your thought process due to how you perceive I am perceiving fetishes. I didn’t find anything wrong with my anal fetish. I didn’t find anything wrong with my shemale fetish. I didn’t find anything wrong with my male fetish.
The kinsley scale is not scientific and is not proven, you shouldn’t reference it.
I’m sorry to say BS this was a complete change that happened after my sexuality was firmly cemented. I was looking at anal porn since I was 10. The first boy who had interest in me was when i was around the same age.
My interest changed due to environment. This isn’t debatable. Everything, my disgust for the vagina, changed. I don’t think you understand I did not think about it as it was happening. I dated girls who tried to have sex with me. I didn’t want to. I did not feel kisses, I did not feel anything sexual for women. At all. I don’t know how I was attracted to my first girlfriend, but she certainly cemented it. I was done with women emotionally at that point. I would barf thinking about the anatomy of a vagina.
Sexual attraction, event though it seems physical, has everything to do with your personal relationships.
When you have a kid it changes. You see your wife with the kid. You see the love. And you’re amazed. Suddenly my penis loved my wife more. It wasn’t some kinsley scale of how gay I was born. It was the polar opposite of how I was supposedly born. How could the fact that I hated the mucus lining of a vagina change BS? You think it can’t. I know it can, due to environment. There is always a source. You absolutely need to talk to people who changed BS, as most people who are gay do not understand their reasons. The ones who changed are the measure to go by.
Also I really shouldn’t call my anal preference a fetish. I had no desire for vaginal sex whatsoever. The girl I finally dated was an anal freak.
When you break it down, the way you are sexually for example suffers after kids are born and you are stressed for many couples. In fact, when many people change after marriage I would argue that is the reason. Do you have kids? The conflict, the rejection due to lack of sleep, no one wants that. Some people can’t handle it. Some people do it wrong. It is damage BS.
When you function well, you work with a partner, your relationships are in order, your sexual desires increase and turn positive. When you’re stressed, and this has been proven, this is when most infidelity occurs, increased substance abuse, increased partners, and the confusion that normal people have when they are hetero, or gay.
You need to discover yourself. You haven’t yet. You are wrong on this. You just don’t realize it yet.
BS:
P.S. (trying to be funny with words, I’m a nerd)
Anal sex and men lasted from 10 to 28.
When I was 22, I had ended my first female relationship. I suddenly realized focusing on dating and sex was a bad idea in light of what I went through. But I did it anyway. 22-26 I dated men, shemales, enjoyed myself thoroughly sexually for once and acted on what I “thought” were natural urges.
But at the same time:
I removed bad friends. I stopped thinking destructively. I did one positive thing a day with my mom, and my dad. I started cooking with them. I integrated new friends. They weren’t allowed to be overly sexual. They weren’t allowed to be having sex with people in the group solely for sex. They were only to be mental fixes, emotional fixes, and connections. Have you seen many gay people who intentionally got into groups in order to stop focusing on sex? The easy answer to that is no. Most gay people focus more on the sex, and they damage themselves more in those unhealthy groups.
So back on point: One of the girls really liked me, I was 27. We played board games, we did things I liked. There was no pressure for a sexual relationship, at all, but she wanted me. Eventually we started dating. Nothing physical because I couldn’t. But it was the most emotionally attached I ever felt. There weren’t any sexual butterflies. None existed. We didn’t have sex because of it. Finally, we had anal sex. I had somewhat of an emotional connection so I could do it, but let’s just say I couldn’t keep it up very well because she was a girl. But as I fixed things more it was better. She got pregnant, from anal while on depo shot, (crazy luck eh?). We had our first kid when I was 28. A girl. A girl that I couldn’t believe how much I loved her. And again, obviously, this love wasn’t about impulses. It was the purest love I had ever experienced. And my now wife, I couldn’t believe their relationship, and their connection to me. We started having vaginal sex. Again, I couldn’t really perform. I would literally think about an ass while doing anything to be able to keep it up. We would put anal porn on. See the point? The attraction wasn’t there.
And then it just changed. I was past 30, and the anal sex while still done, I didn’t feel as connected, as vaginal sex.
BS you’re going to just have to accept that these impulses gay people feel, and why they feel they love people of the same sex, is that they haven’t had real love with someone of the opposite sex and don’t know what it is or what it feels like. They were twisted in some way that made them attach to the same gender, without knowing it, and sex when you’re young you don’t question it.
I know I was explicit, but only so you would get the point.
I didn’t mean that completely buy into the Kinsey scale. I know it’s had many detractors over the years. I just used it as a reference to help explain how I tend to view sexuality. I think some people are more hard-wired gay or straight, and others are more fluid, usually tending to lean one way or the other.
Since you shared your background with me, I’ll give you a bit of mine. It’s not quite as colorful as yours, but hopefully, it will explain where I am coming from.
Personally, I see myself as more fluid. A ‘Kinsey 2,’ if you will. ;) I’ve always been into guys. In grade school wrote the names of the boys I liked on my notebooks, and decided I was going to marry this or that boy-band member. In high school, I had crushes (or obsessions ;) and would get fluttery every time a boy I liked looked at or talked to me. It was typical high school girl crap.
But at the same time I was keeping an eye out in the hallways for the boys that I was ‘totally in love’ with, I was also keeping another eye out for certain girls. At the time, I wouldn’t have been able to put a name to it, but I was absolutely fascinated by them. I also didn’t realize it at the time, or what it might have meant, but I got just as flustered when they would look at or talk to me.
Flash forward a few years. I was in my very early twenties, and had dated a number of guys. I had absolutely no doubt that I liked men. And then I saw one of my best friends kissing another friend of mine. Both were girls. I knew that they only were doing it to get a rise out of a couple of the guys sitting by them, but suddenly, I was blindingly jealous. Not for the attention of the guys around them, but because I desperately wanted to be the one my best friend was kissing. It was then that I realized that I could be interested in both men and women.
Over the next year or so, I continued dating guys. I’d still notice other women. Still be fascinated by some of them. Not to mention that I was still carrying a pretty big torch for my best friend. But overall, it was just guys. Then, one night I went clubbing with my friend and we ended up making out in the back of the car on the way home. It was good. Comfortable. There were no awkward moments afterwards. It just felt right. And I think it might have actually gone somewhere, if the next day I hadn’t met a man that I fell head over heels in love with and ended up marrying.
My husband and I have been together for 16 years now. Married for 13. He is the love of my life, and I can’t imagine being without him. However, I still find women attractive. I’ll still see a woman, and think, “God, I want her.” I’ve had crushes on other women while I’ve been married. I went to a convention with a group of friends, and ended up having to share a bed with one of those crushes. It was one of the most nerve-wracking nights I’ve ever had. I spent the entire night in semi-consciousness, because I was terrified of rolling into her in my sleep and doing something I shouldn’t have. Not because being I thought being with another woman was wrong, but because I was married, and I don’t cheat. It was the same reason I was nervous about crashing on a guy friend’s house after a group of us had gotten back from a road trip that my husband wasn’t able to go on. I was attracted to him and even though I was going to be on the couch and he was going to be in his room, we were alone, and there was temptation to act on that attraction.
This is why I believe sexual attraction tends to be inherent. The fact that I was married didn’t stop me from being attracted to either of my friends. It didn’t stop me from wanting both of them. But the fact that I am in love with my husband and would never willingly do anything to jeopardize our marriage made me not act on those attractions.
However, if I had been single, I probably would have jumped them both. ;)
BS:
I honestly would not have guessed your gender. You’re more gender neutral than anyone I know. That’s a side comment, moving on:
Just disregard almost everything I said and look at it this way and it’s really very similar in all aspects, not just sexuality.
When your kid hits a wall is it because they like hitting the wall? I’ve seen kids do it and laugh, and grow addicted (my niece). She’s hitting the wall because of other factors that make her subconsciously think hitting the wall is what she wants to do. When you work with a kid, you usually have to work indirectly to help. If they are upset chances are they haven’t eaten.
People are the same sexually. If you’re upset and crying, your sexual hungers will change. If you lack a certain type of relationship, you might seek it in a lover.
If you look at what you just said, you got jealous when two female girls kissed each other. You were reacting to environment. The fact that you felt jealous doesn’t mean that you being gay is what caused you to be jealous of the two girls. You could very easily have a factor you don’t understand, where you are slightly detached from both genders, and as such focus on the sexual more with both genders as opposed to a more complex relationship (sex in relationships is not complicated. It’s easier. I’ve gone through this and so have you, it’s easier to have a relationship where you want to @%@@ someone, than if you want to be compatible and do things together and common ground. Sex is easy common ground for some people, and they want an easy connection, ergo with you, you might have wanted an easy connection through sex with both genders. You probably just wanted to be close to that girl).
My examples explains people who change. Your example doesn’t explain that away, other than saying they weren’t gay. Let me assure you, I loved doing the asses I did. Pardon the explicit wording. Other people who were gay were the same. Then they realized they were lacking something and that’s why they did the ass. They wanted a connection they didn’t have. They didn’t understand heterosexual love advantages, just like a neutral person doesn’t understand why they should date one gender. It’s still damage. You would understand if you went through the change. It should state something that you translated the kiss to the relationship, the impulse to the relationship.
That impulse is like the child, an impulse from an underlying issue. A result of some emotional experience. It is not the proximate cause. Impulses come from emotional experience.
Bob – I have never had my sexual urges change if I was upset, crying, hungry, or mad. That to me, just doesn’t make sense. Sometimes when I’m sick, I’d like to be cuddeled by my Mom because she always did that when I was younger, but it didn’t make me want to have sex with a woman.
As far as change, everyone goes through changes. Some, I think like you, more than others. I went through several years of therapy and totally changed my relationship with my mother for the better. I did that because it was causing me pain and I wanted that to stop. But it didn’t affect my sexuality or my relationships with women.
I think you had more than your share of trauma growing up, including sexual trauma, and you are using those to base your conclusions on.
Libby,
I’m using them well, as they should be, objectively. My brother with a psychology major agreed with the break down, especially because people all too often ignore what studies say.
For example: Sexual appetite changing when you are upset, stressed, etc, is actually a factual thing that you can’t deny Libby. No one has ever tried to link those studies to sexual appetite for gender to date.
But the important thing to note, is if I as a human react that way it’s because humans react that way. And the people I mentioned were always the same.
I’m a bit of an everything Libby. I can relate to any section of humanity. Because of this, if I ever get to know someone, I can often figure out what made someone a certain way before they know themselves it does. The gay people were no different.
Even running into 1 person that met the criteria would disprove the being born gay system. That system cannot explain the people who change. It cannot explain evolving and changing fetishes. Environment and psychological behavior can. And it does with every person I’ve ever met.
Bob: If you have met “gay” people that changed, that means they weren’t gay to begin with. Or it means they are trying to be something they’re not.
As far as fetishes changing, I could see that I guess. I don’t know because I don’t have any what I would call fetishes. But I know what I’m attracted to sexually is what I’ve always been attracted to sexually. But that’s just me.
“…court decision based on non-science.” What does science have to to with equality and marriage?
Funny you should ask, my roommate in the service was gay. This was back during the Viet Nam years before don’t ask, don’t tell. In the evenings he went his way and I went mine, neither of us ever brought any over-night guests to the room. We are still friends but friends can disagree – don’t you think. Also I never had a big brother and my older cousin filled that role. I love him but do not agree with his gay lifestyle, he just got married to his partner. Alright I’ve given you an answer now provide that “proof” to support your argument and forget the emotional appeal I don’t buy it and there’s no way to argue against a person’s emotions.
I can’t provide scientific proof, because I don’t think there is any. That doesn’t change my opinion, though. I don’t think it has anything to do with the argument for marriage equality. If you’re gay, you’re gay. It doesn’t matter what made you that way. And if you’re in love and you’re gay, you should be allowed to get married the same as anyone else.
BS:
I put reply to you in the right spot technically, whereas it is the wrong spot because you put yours in the wrong spot ;)
No worries. This thread is way too long and way too hard to reply in the right section!!
Bob:
I don’t disagree that human behavior is environmental. However behavior is different than intrinsic nature. Yes, I do believe that certain things are ingrained in our DNA. For example, eye color, sexuality, and even violent tendencies to some extent. You can’t change any of them. You can only change how they are perceived, or how you act on them.
You can’t change your eye color from blue to brown. You can put in colored contacts and they’ll look brown, but underneath, they’ll still be blue. Even if you wear them every day and no one ever sees you without them. Even if you wear them so much that you think of yourself as brown-eyed, underneath, they will still be blue.
People with violent tendencies have to make the choice of how they want to behave. They can act on those urges and hurt people, or make the conscious decision not to. Sometimes they don’t succeed in controlling their urges, and end up plowing into another car in a fit of road rage. But more times than not, they’ll just yell, drive by, and flick the other driver off. It doesn’t mean that the violent tendency isn’t still there, it just means that they just made the choice to react in more socially acceptable way.
I believe sexuality is the same way. Every person is born with a specific orientation, causing them to lean one way or the other (or sometimes both ways, but that’s a whole other discussion. ;) Each person makes the decision on how they want to act on that orientation. Most people act according to their orientation. Others may choose not to. And that’s OK.
If a lesbian decides that although she’s attracted to women, she wants a ‘traditional’ family and decides to marry a man and live as a straight woman, that’s her choice. It doesn’t mean her orientation has suddenly changed. It doesn’t mean that her attraction to women has gone away. It just means that she’s chosen not to act on those attractions. If that works for her and she’s happy, then that’s great for her.
I’ve re-read your comments. Please forgive me if I interpreted you wrong. I SWEAR I’m not trying to poke at you, but from reading into your comments, I get the impression that you might have done something similar? If that’s the case, and you are happy, that’s great for you. It must have been difficult, and I don’t think I could do it, myself. But if it works for you and it makes you happy, that’s all that matters.
But not everybody can do that. Not everybody wants to. And they shouldn’t have to.
Sorry about that. I replied under the wrong thread. That comment was directed towards Bob, and not Original Bob.
What “pie” are you cutting?????
Any man that chooses anus over vagina is sick…that’s a fact Jack!
How about a woman that enjoys the same things you do? Is that sick or does that turn you on?
Since when was saying what people enjoyed, and using philosophy as to what people consider to be normal, a form of finding out what a perfect being wants for mankind? I think it’s the worst measure you can possibly use, and you use it a lot.
Some people get turned on by Car porn. Yes. People having sex with a machine. Some people get turned on by pissing on their partners.
I’m not saying any are alike to homosexual sex. In fact, biblically I tend to think that homosexual sex is actually a sin for a reason that most people don’t understand, and one that you never will admit because you refuse to acknowledge certain things in life:
Men and women are different. They are intricately designed to fill in for each other’s flaws and weaknesses. I am sorry to say that it is not just the penis and vagina fitting. I’m sorry but women are just naturally better with kids. Mother’s milk and breast feeding is something every kid should have, and it has properties that cannot be mimicked. The family unit was designed by god if you believe in god, and depriving someone a family unit, is in actuality, the reason why it is sinful. A good woman keeps a man a man. A good man keeps a woman a woman, aware of both gender’s unique differences. This also affects how they treat opposite gender. When your primary significant other is same gender I’m sorry Libby, THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. It also usually doesn’t happen until you get married and have kids. If you didn’t have the experience when your life changed when you realized your life partner was amazing, and that didn’t affect your view of the opposite gender, and your kids didn’t make you bond more with all humans, well then, you missed out on what it’s for. Everyone I have ever seen grows from it. As it turns out, God wants us to grow less selfish. Not more so. To understand the opposite gender, you have to wake up with and live with the opposite gender intimately.
Read the bible as a side comment. Sexual immorality is defined to be a sin mostly because it is a sin against oneself, depriving oneself the union of one flesh, with one person, and that connection for life. Peter specifically talks on it.
The reason homosexual behavior is considered to be bad is also quoted to be laying with a man as you would a woman as a side comment. So I think the book is clear that it isn’t the sex act, as you cannot have sex with a man like you can a woman, unless you have sex with the woman’s anus. The bible explicitly talks about anal sex with women at other sections, so your argument that anal sex is done by both heterosexual couples as well ignores why it might be wrong to partake in homosexual behavior. It didn’t say thou shalt not lay with a man differently than a woman. It says as you would.
To be explicit like you:
The bible implies men lay with women in anal sex, like men lay with men, anal sex.
But that the gender difference is the problem.
Thous shalt not lay with a man as you would a woman, it is abomination. Again, the sex act there would have to be anal sex for both, but for one it is wrong. It has more to do with the union of one man and one woman, intimately, to grow, for life. You will not grow as much with someone of the same gender. If you are unwilling to admit this, you are lost.
Bob – you make the assumption that I give a crap about what the bible says. I don’t.
Fair enough Libby, I won’t include the bible any longer. I’ve just seen you go after it a lot.
Moving on: True. But nothing teaches you like having a partner of the opposite sex. Deny that and you’re just out of your mind.
When you have a bad relationship with a woman, it can make you hate women for years, or vice versa. What you think of your relationship with your significant other, how much you get to know them, and your parents, is the only way to respect them the most.
Empathy is learned. It does not pop out of nowhere. And there is no way to be more empathetic than to have a lover or a parent. No friendship will ever, ever, ever, influence your thoughts on opposite gender as much as those two things.
As such, having a same sex relationship, you will be more regressive, and more apathetic to opposite gender. It’s just the way the world works. No matter how much you say people can learn in a myriad of ways, no way is as close as a parent and a lover.
I was damaged. I hated women due to my mother. I experimented with men. A woman fixed me. My daughter fixed me. They are why I can respect women. You remove my mother from my life, who I finally fixed my relationship with, and then remove my wife, and or my daughter, and I would never, ever, ever, be capable of understanding and empathizing with them and I would never have become a better person. And you should know this is true with every human being. People who do not participate in opposite gender relationships, and especially who don’t have opposite gender parents, cannot be as understanding of the opposite sex, unconditionally.
I don’t know if I agree with your conclusion. I know you base it alot on your own experience, but single parent children can have healthy relationships with both sexes.
Just as you can not see having a same sex relationship, gay people can’t see not having one. It’s what they are attracted to in a romantic ans sexual way. But it doesn’t mean they can’t appreciate, respect, and have intimate relationships with people of the opposite sex.
They cannot have the same experience and connection to both genders, without an unconditional love with both genders. End of story.
Any friend you know could leave. You know your father and mother will not. How you think of the opposite gender is primarily parents, and lovers. End of story. Accept it, move on.
You can do something without it being what is best. Plenty of people have one gender of parents and “seem” fine. They would be better with two.
Bob – I understand your comments are a result of your personal experiences, but not everyone had the same experiences you did and would not necessarily react the way you did.
I believe you mentioned something about your grandfather in past posts. I think this had more to do with your so-called “fetish” than hating your mother.
I know many gay people that had both parents and a loving and supportive upbringing. They do not have trouble relating to either sex and are still gay.
Many people experiment, as it sounds like both you and BS have done, but are still mainly attracted to one or the other sex. That makes you heterosexual but open to sexual experiences with the opposite sex. It doesn’t make you gay. Gay people are still mainly attracted to same sex but may experiment with the other sex.
The reason is because being gay is about much more than just your sexual partner. It’s about who you feel those romantic feelings for and who you want to grow old with. All those things that make a marriage a marriage. It’s not just about having sex.
“People who do not participate in opposite gender relationships, and especially who don’t have opposite gender parents, cannot be as understanding of the opposite sex, unconditionally.”
You had a horrible relationship with your opposite sex parent. That did not help you to understand the opposite sex, it helped you hate the opposite sex. You did not learn to love unconditionally because you had an opposite sex parent. It caused you tremendous pain and self-loathing throughout your younger years.
I’m not convinced now you truly understand the opposite sex, anymore than I do. It’s hard to understand someone that thinks totally different than you do. We try, but we really just mutually exist.
Libby,
You argue with what it supposedly teaches with conservatives.
And you argue incorrectly.
Moving on: There were philosophical arguments in there I noticed you didn’t direct, and it’s because you refuse to. You are just as blind as the conservative right.
What say you about learning the intricate intimacy and bond of the opposite gender? We are different. If you aren’t intimate with the opposite sex, how do you learn to respect the differences as well as someone who does?
If you have two same sex relationships, how do you learn the same thing? Unconditional love toward both genders?
You don’t. That’s the way it works. Studies already show that most people marry people like their parents. Why do you think that is? That they didn’t respect the opposite gender most in their parent? They didn’t learn the most in their parent?
It didn’t say they married the person most like their uncle, or close friends who were the opposite gender.
It is clear that this world was designed in such a way that a family unit, one man, one woman, helps ALL society, whereas gay behavior does not, keeps one regressive, and more apathetic.
Should read if you have two same sex parents. Sorry.
Bob: People learn to respect both sexes through a myriad of ways. Many of my gay friends are much more intimate confidantes than any man could be. Many of my lesbian friends can build a shed and install the electrical the same as any man. Intimacy is more than just sex. And unconditional love doesn’t just come from a man/woman relationship. To tell the truth, I think that is usually only between a parent and child.
Speaking of which, gay couples can not create a baby together, but they certainly can through artificial insemination &/or surrogate. They can have the same type of family unit you have with your spouse and children.
Since I am married, but have no children, is my family unit inferior to yours? Is it less valuable? I have a niece and nephew I absolutely adore, so I have experienced that relationship you describe. Is my experience less than yours?
BTW, I do not think I argue the bible’s teachings, since I think the bible, overall, sends a good message. But I do argue people’s interpretation of the bible’s intentions.
The fair enough comment was supposed to be down here.
I for one enjoy pissing on my car
I never thought to combine the two things I mentioned.
That was hilarious!
Tabula Rasa. Nature vs. Nurture. Are people born that way or is it learned behavior? Is there scientific proof? None of that matters.
What matters are there are many same sex relationships that are not afforded the same benefits as a heterosexual relationship and they should be.
Can someone please explain what exactly this has to do with I-N-S-U-R-A-N-C-E?
I am trying to keep my mind clean so comme’on IJ, when I visit an I-N-S-U-R-A-N-C-E website guess what I am looking to read about, correct, I-N-S-U-R-A-N-C-E only related topics ONLY. For non-sense stuff like this I would go other to sites so please keep it classy and I-N-S-U-R-A-N-C-E related.
You don’t think changing the definition of marriage will affect the insurance industry?
Einstein – why click on the link? Don’t you have free will?
Quit being so anal
Does anyone have a non-religious reason to be against gay marriage?
Freedom of Religion = Freedom from Religion.
If it’s procreation, then all heterosexual people must verify they are fertile to get a marriage certificate and are required to have children within a certain time period, say 2 years, of getting married.
Since gay couples do have children, where are they coming from? They are adopting children no one else wants or are being put up for adoption instead of being aborted. How terrible.
Ron- AIDS
Jack, we’ve had this discussion before. And, as I said the last time you used this argument:
Yes, in the United States, MSM is the group that is the most affected by HIV/AIDS. However, globally, there are more women than men infected. And, the vast majority of them contracted it through heterosexual sex. Among young people aged 15-24, the HIV prevalence rate for young women is twice that of young men. (http://www.amfar.org/)
No matter how much you may want to believe otherwise, AIDS is NOT just a ‘gay’ disease. So, stop with the AIDS = gay-only argument. It’s not true, and it’s a pretty pathetic argument against allowing two people to get married.
I LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES AND DON’T REALLY CARE IF HOMOS MARRY IN IRAQ,IRAN…..OOOPS NEVERMIND THEY ARE STONED.
AIDS IS A GAY DISEASE!!!! CAUSED AND SPREAD MOSTLY BY GAYS!!
Oh ye of such low intelligience. Scientific research indicates HIV (which causes AIDS) was passed on to humans through African chimpanzee monkeys; most likely hunters. You’re a hunter, right? You could have brought AIDS to the U.S.
“It has been known for a long time that certain viruses can pass between species. Indeed, the very fact that chimpanzees obtained SIV from two other species of primate shows just how easily this crossover can occur. As animals ourselves, we are just as susceptible. When a viral transfer between animals and humans takes place, it is known as zoonosis.”
I know you desperately want to believe it, but, it’s just not true. Globally, more than 35 million people live with HIV/AIDS.
There are approximately 1.1 million with it in the states.
25 million of them live in Sub-Saharan Africa. And 57% of those 25 million are WOMEN. Women who did NOT HAVE MSM SEX.
Yes, MSM is a high risk group. I’m not arguing that. But worldwide, women make up more than half of all people living with HIV/AIDS. Women who are not having MSM sex. Women who caught it by having HETEROSEXUAL sex (whether consensual or not) with their partners. So, to say that AIDS is a gay-only disease is ignorant and once again, not a valid argument against same-sex marriage.
MSM causes 65% of AIDS cases but your ok with it. KILLING THOUSANDS
Less than 2% of gun deaths are from high capacity rifles- you want to ban them
Enjoy your anus and I’ll enjoy my 30 rounds. :)
If over 50% of people infected by HIV/AIDS are women, exactly how does that equal 65% MSM? You might want to re-check your math.
And, once again comparing apples to shoes.
Please try again.
We need to stop recognizing marriages #3 and up, any wedding that took place at a NASCAR track or the Tilt-A-Whirl at Six Flags over Texico, or where the big wedding gift is matching Camo Rascal Scooters with gun racks and balls hanging from the back. These events are bogus and are mutating the gene pool. Are you going to start hating people that are born with three eyes? It’s evolution BABY! Seems like most of those opposing equality for all are the sex, drug, alcohol, and gambling addicts also known as Born-Agains that will do anything they can to make themselves feel better than then swill that they are. Who cares that Adam and Steve are bumping uglies in their bedroom. I’d be more worried about the moral fabric of Cletus McJimJack IV who has been married to Tammy Jo, Bobbie Sue, Blanche-Jane, and Tammy-Rae, who can’t stand the thought of being alone, and has all his exes names tattooed on his arms that he did with a bic pen and razor blade.
You sure have a way with words! LOL!!
One of the last stands of the anti gay marriage crowd is the “protect the children”
Some onservatives are terrified that their children will learn that kids of gay parents and the parents themselves are great people
BTW my 12 year old granddaughter’s best friends are two children – male and Female, inter- racial, adoped by a lesbian couple neighbor
Yet until 1967, when scotus trashed the last 16 of once 41 states with miscegenation laws, my daughter’s marriage to a Japanese national would have been illegal where she lives in the midwest
The single most compelling argument against “intelligent design”: HUMAN BEINGS.
“The court’s reasoning,(In regards to Striking down Virginia’s Gay Marriage Ban) however, would permit nearly every relationship to be a marriage so long as it is grounded in choice and emotion, yet that’s not what marriage or true liberty has ever been.” said Byron Babione, a lawyer for the pro-ban group Alliance Defending Freedom.
How does this make any Sense? So he is saying that any Marriage grounded in The option to choose your Spouse or feel emotionally connected to that individual is not part of a marriage? And also Choice and emotion Have nothing to do with True liberty ie Freedom??? Sounds like Sharia Law Byron Babione.
In regards to civil unions. . . they are not legally equivalent to a marriage and not recognized by everyone. Google the difference and learn for yourself.
Don’t believe I ever said they were equivalent. I would argue just the opposite. It’s just that there is a precedent for separating a marriage and a legal contract to obtain benefits. So why the push to change the definition of marriage?
1. Civil unions are not recognized in every state.
2. No FMLA is available to a civil union spouse.
3. They cannot enjoy the tax benefits of filing married.
4. Their spouse cannot be sponsored for immigration.
5. They are not entitled to inherit all the assets of their spouse.
Marriage is only a word. What difference does it make if you share it with others? You’re ridiculous.
Exactly, marriages are not civil unions, so they will not have the same traits/benefits.
It’s more than a word to me. Unfortunately, too many think the way you do and feel they need to impose that upon everyone else.
If its just a word to you, then why change what it means?
Gay people want to have the same traits/benefits as you do. Many are religious and want that same commitment you have with your spouse, in the eyes of God, the law, and the world. That in no way takes away from the sanctity of your marriage with your spouse. It only allows others that same joy only heterosexual couples have been able to experience up until now.
You fundamentalist “Christians” are good at picking and choosing who gets what; which rules apply to whom. Funny thing, everyone but you ends up on the short end of the stick.
They can. They have the same right as every other American to marry someone of the opposite sex and receive those benefits. No one is denying them that. It is their choice (there’s that word again) to not do so.
I have no doubt many are religious, but that doesn’t mean they are Christian. Atheists are religious. Many terrorists are religious. Green Bay Packer fans are religious. Being religious is not the key.
You’re right that them wanting what I have with my spouse does not retract from what I have. They just will not be able to find what they are looking for in a homosexual relationship. It’s not something any law can give. It’s only found in a relationship approved by God.
I know you are lumping me in with all those who claim to be Christians, yet are not. However, true Christians don’t pick and choose which rules apply, they are already set down by God. His rules are pretty straight forward and have not and will not change for all time.
If you review global history, I think you will find that Christians often end up on the short end of the stick.
You are so indoctrinated into your small-minded idea of what God is that there is no talking sense to you. Yes, gays can, and are, Christian. Many probably better than most heterosexual “Christians”.
Your intolerance is ignorant and your statements about Christianity arrogant. An arrogant ignoramous is a very dangerous creature.
There you go with your insults again. Feel better?
My idea of God is the exact opposite of small-minded. He is so vast He is uncomprehendable to us, and he knows this, which is why he provided his Word. You seem to think that you understand his will because its what you feel. That, by the way, is small-minded.
I never said there were not any Christians who deal with the temptation of homosexuality. Everyone has their weakness and the devil is sure to exploit what he can.
My statements about Christianity are straight from God’s word, so unfortunately, your opinion of God is that He is intolerant, ignorant, and arrogant.
It’s not His word. It’s John’s, and Paul’s, and Matthew’s, etc. They regurgatated their memories of Jesus and his words. At best,they are Jesus’ words. Not God’s. Period. End of conversation.
You keep saying “end of conversation”, yet you continue. I don’t mind continuing, so here’s something for you to think on.
Jesus and God are the same, what Jesus says is God’s words.
John 10:30 – Jesus states:”I and my Father are one.”
John 14:10-11 – “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.”
What the men you mentioned wrote was inspired by the Holy Spirit, which is also God.
There you go quoting that silly little book again. Was Jesus not a man? Are we not all children of God? Does not the Father dwell in all of us and we in Him? God is eternal, Jesus wasn’t. The reason he wasn’t is because he was flesh and blood like you and me. There is also his little caveat “or else believe me for the very works’ sake.” I believe Jesus was a person and I believe he was a prophet. However, he is no more God than Buddah or Mohammed.
You know just enough of the truth to have fooled yourself into thinking you have the answers. However, you are forgetting some very important details. Jesus was God taking human form. He willingly gave up some of his deity to become a sacrifice to save us, something we cannot do on our own. The Holy Spirit dwells within us after you put your trust in Christ. Jesus is eternal. Did you forget about the resurrection? The real reason we celebrate Easter?
For someone allegedly so educated, you certainly sound silly. Do you believe in little green men, as well?
What makes you think what Jesus said holds any more validity than Budda or Mohammed? Oh, that’s right. Your arrogance!
The Holy Spirit dwells within all of us. Period.
Jesus was a man. Period.
There was no resurrection. Period.
Jesus was a very devout Jew. If you truly understood the religion of the time, you would know Jesus did not want people to worship him, but to worship God.
For instance during his life, Jesus instructed his apostles not to bother with gentiles: “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans” (Matt 10:5). It was only after he died that the author of Acts decided to change that into “go and preach to all the nations”. It’s interesting to note that the apostles did not do that, only Paul took it onto himself to be an “apostle to the gentiles”.
He gave clear instructions that the law of Moses would never be removed or changed: “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” (Matt 5:18). Well, heaven and earth have NOT disappeared, yet Paul was soon preaching that the old laws were dispensed with.
Jesus was a Jew. He believed that he was the messiah, that is the god-anointed king who would take the throne of David and bring Judaea back under Jewish rule. All of this is perfectly in accordance with Jewish law – even the title “son of god” was a title given to the descendants of David.
Jesus would have been horrified to discover that he would be made into the central deity of a new religion after his death.
And BTW, I am not Jewish.
http://jesusisajew.org/Jesus_is_a_Jew.php
Because it fits the political whim of the day.
Stopping the exporting of our jobs, bringing our boys home, reducing the debt – no where near as important to the current admin as Gay Marriage.
Wow Bob. That is a lot of weight on your shoulders. You dont think it will do any good, but I will say a prayer for you.
Try it some time, you may find your self talking your way through issues. Works for me. Maybe you????