Hey Jack, gays will not be protected from God’s judgment some day either.
Matthew 19: 4-6. And he answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female and said “For this reason, a man shall leave his Father & Mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh so they are no longer two but one flesh”. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.
Agent,
Happy Friday! How is life in Texico? I guess that you are sure to be posting on the many blogs after Supreme Court made gay marrage legal nationwide.
A quick question agent…why are divorce rates so much higher in bible thumping red states (ex. Texico, Alabama, etc) and so much lower in Godless blue states like Massachusetts, Rhode Island and New York?
Something to read when you go to the library Agent. I guess visiting a library would not be a good idea for you. You would not like what you read, and you might burn all the books!
Cheers agent!
This has been an argument since I was a kid and it is no less valid in current day then it was back then.
You see, you’re not new 102. As much as you think you are, this argument has been had for some time.
As divorce rates get worse, and the country has become more liberal, can I draw that as a conclusion that the more liberal the country gets the worse divorce will get? If so, does that mean gay marriage will harm the divorce rate?
Correlation does not equate to causation, and your comparison is far too simple. This is especially true considering you tried to imply Agent doesn’t read.
Bob, as a Catholic, can you not be excommunicated for divorcing? I think a special annulment decree is needed, right? For this reason, Catholics have a lower divorce rate, right?
June 30, 2015 at 4:52 pm
bob says:
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Agent,
With that logic there would be no divorce rate at all.
Annulment is needed, but this does not artificially lower their divorce rate numbers.
June 29, 2015 at 3:36 pm
bob says:
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Then let’s go a step further:
Diversity. Women and men are different. The debate was ended long ago in psychology, and biology. As much as you “biology deniers” try to state homosexual coupling and heterosexual coupling is the same, and would rather listen to songs about it for professional advice (Same Love)
It is not the same.
Genetic diversity is of course necessary to procreate, but it is also helpful to relationships.
Yes. Some people when married cannot handle the diversity between two different genders.
But marriage is superior between a man and a woman when the diversity lacks adversity. The two are biologically complimentary of each other. Emotionally and physically. It is harmonious and quite beautiful the way the two gender relationships work.
This is not the case of homosexual relationships, and especially of the children which they want to be able to adopt. Two primary genders teaches children how to deal with the differences between the genders.
Now I don’t believe this makes it ok to outlaw gay marriage, but the crux of your argument was that if divorce rates are a problem, that they should be considered.
If we are going to consider divorce rates, there is no doubt that gay marriage will be higher, and there seems to be evidence that those who accept it are more willing to accept divorce in normal marriage. Not to mention homosexual studies on cheating are hard to come by, but many suggest cheating is far more predominant, and cheating is the number one reason behind divorce. This suggests that divorce rates among homosexuals will be dramatically worse than heterosexual, so your argument is very poor in relationship to that. Many studies seem to suggest that the majority of gay relationships are kept alive by allowing some degree of an open relationship.
Many studies quote the substance abuse of homosexual people to be the fault of society, however, as social acceptance has gone up, depression and substance abuse has not gone down.
We have clearly very real problems faced by gay people, and rather than tell them to look inward, people like you tell them to look outward and blame everyone else, and social stigmas like monogamy for their problems.
I believe that the society due to these people will go to the lowest possible social norm and I have seen it happen.
My old friend groups would often do it. Sally did things worse than Sue. So Sue wasn’t so bad. It kept going down the rabbit hole, until there was no morality, only moral relativism.
That is what will destroy society. Not someone setting religious encouraged standards for morality.
KY, didn’t you know that the ISIS attacks on tourists are because of Global Warming? If you don’t believe me, ask Rosenblatt and he will give you chapter and verse on why terrorists want to kill infidels or anyone else that doesn’t believe as they do. They just killed a bunch of kids for not observing the fasting rules on Ramadan.
Oh my goodness this article. There is this thing called discrimination period. However, if the government is going to look further to pass a law that if you’re gay you cannot be discriminated against, then I want a law that you cannot discriminate against someone driving a silver truck, or white car. Or even further, someone driving a foreign manufactured car. I’d hate to buy a German made car over the weekend, to then come to pass, I get fired on Monday from my job at Ford. Give it a rest already.
Read the 14th Amendment. It is the basis of this decision and a part of the Constitution.
Did you see in Justice Scalia’s dissent where he said the Court is a threat to American democracy? Maybe you could explain to him how he is wrong. Don’t forget to throw in an insult.
June 29, 2015 at 12:08 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron
The 14th amendment was a civil rights amendment granting citizenship to slaves that were born in this country or naturalized. It forbade the states to deny any person life, liberty or property without due process of law or to deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The majority, once again, overstepped its bounds by expanding (legislating from the bench). Scalia was most accurate in his dissent.
We are all going to be sorry in the future when the immorality, in the name of liberty, gains momentum down this slippery slope.
For example, look where we are at today in society because of porn. Freedom of speech was the liberty that was allegedly at risk. It was protected, but at what cost?? No one can convince me that the human sex trade is not worse than what it would have otherwise been had porn not been so prevalent.
The 14th Amendment does not say anything about slaves. However, it does provide for equal protection for all U.S.citizens.
That would be like someone saying the 2nd Amendment did not factor in assault rifles. We cannot pick and choose to whom and how each Amendment applies as time changes and we evolve.
Can you PROVE that homosexuality is a choice?
Now you want to challenge the 1st Amendment, too? Are they all up for debate or just the ones that do not support the right’s ideology?
For the record, I support the 2nd Amendment as well as all the others.
June 29, 2015 at 1:54 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron,
The 14th amendment was written right after the civil war and its intentions were directed at making the slaves free. Why didn’t women having voting rights at this time if it was meant for all citizens?
Regarding the 2nd amendment and this ruling, I guess that since 36 states have conceal and carry laws that anyone is now allowed to carry their concealed weapons into any of the remaining 14 states and it will be legal, right?
Can you PROVE that homosexuality is not a choice? The ‘science” that is supposedly evidence is flawed and manufactured to meet the desired result.
I never said I want to challenge the 1st amendment. I was merely pointing out the slippery slope that is created. Question, is free speech ever restricted by law? If so, why?
You asked, “Why didn’t women having voting rights at this time if it was meant for all citizens?” Because there is no law for or against voting. I could turn around and ask, if the 14th Amendment was about making slaves equal, why did we need a separate Amendment to provide voting rights to them?
So, you cannot prove homosexuality is a choice. Therefore, they should be treated equally to those who did not choose to be black, Asian, female, etc.
You asked, “is free speech ever restricted by law? If so, why?” Yes, if the free speech, in and of itself, creates chaos/mass hysteria and/or physical harm to others. For example, you cannot yell “Fire” in a crowded theatre.
June 29, 2015 at 3:07 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron,
My proof that homosexuality is a choice is the thousands of ex-gays that have chosen to not be gay.
Blacks were given the right to vote in 1870, just after the 14th amendment was passed. Women did not get this right until 1920.
You are correct about free speech being restricted and the general reasons why. So, in hindsight (as if we actually needed hindsight), do you think porn has been harmful to others? Shouldn’t porn have been similarly restricted for the same basis?
You said,”My proof that homosexuality is a choice is the thousands of ex-gays that have chosen to not be gay.” That tells me that they were probably not gay,but either bisexual or just rebelling. Either way, that is a very small percentage.
How about those who have committed suicide because they do not want to be gay? Or those who have been shunned and isolated by their friends and families? How about gay Republicans/Conservatives, especially Mary Cheney? How do you explain the evidence of homosexual behaviors in other species?
June 29, 2015 at 5:28 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron –
Homosexuality is not a liberal/conservative issue. It is a personal sexual preference. So called conservatives that have come out are conservative for other reasons, not their sexual preference.
Bi-sexuality is proof that sexual preference is a choice.
You discount those previously gay as a small percentage and probably weren’t “really” gay. Again, you’ve proven that it was a choice. I would bet that there are more ex-gays in the world than there are other species displaying gay behavior.
In my opinion, you are making light of what homosexuals and bisexuals have to live with. It is not a preference for the vast majority of homosexuals.
The point about Conservatives was not saying gays do not have Conservative values, just that if being gay was a choice, wouldn’t all Conservatives be straight to match the ideology?
Regarding porn, I honestly don’t think it has negatively impacted society. As with violent movies, music, and other media, the vast majority are not affected by experiencing different mediums.
You did not address all of the scenarios I presented. Why would someone choose a lifestyle that has lead to suicides and being disenfranchised by family, friends and society? It just does not make sense.
June 30, 2015 at 3:13 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron –
Suicide, for any reason, has an underlying element of mental illness attached to it. That mental illness may or may not be significant, by itself. Life circumstances add fuel to the fire.
I am not a psychiatrist or pyschologist so I cannot answer your question with any definitive response. I presume you cannot explain why they do it, either. Suicide is never an answer to any problem.
While I think that appropriate couseling can help many, those that are too conflicted will still resort to suicide. Hence, the mental illness.
I think many, if not most, suicides by gay people are caused by a sense of internal guilt. That guilt could be that they are gay and don’t want to be; a feeling of causing disappointment to friends, family or God; or it could be that they want to be gay but don’t want to be public about their choice.
Regardless the reason for their choice, I agree we have to love them for who they are and what they have chosen as a life style. It does not mean we have to condone and agree with that lifestyle.
For example, if a family member is an alcoholic, we still love and support them. It does not mean that we take them out drinking to say it is okay. (FYI…I am not comparing alcoholism with homosexuality, I am only trying to make an illustration.)
In my opinion, the reason anyone commits suicide is because God gave them more than they can handle. If God made someone homosexual who cannot handle it, you have a suicide.
Until it can be proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that all homosexuality is a choice, we cannot treat any of them differently in the eyes of the law, including marriage.
That is an absolutely terrible example. Alcoholism is a choice, that is a fact. Unfortunately, it is also far more tolerated in many parts of society than homosexuality. You can say you are not comparing them, but you are.
June 30, 2015 at 5:08 pm
bob says:
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Ok excuse me, God gave them more than they can handle = Suicide.
I mean this literally, because it’s the only reply I can have to this comment: Then to hell with you! Distance yourself from God.
You don’t get to blame God.
Moving off of that:
Why does anyone choose any bad behavior ever that is linked to suicide? Drugs, alcohol, etc.
You finally asked a good question.
But you ignored the only possibilities. You tried to say they must not have a choice if it leads them to suicide.
I could just as easily argue the opposite. They look down on their own decision, and thus, commit suicide. It is certainly possible. I’m not saying that is the case but merely postulating here on that one since you relied on it.
Whether or not gay behavior is a choice should not change whether or not gay marriage is legal. Your commentary there is mind boggling.
June 30, 2015 at 5:25 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron,
You claim to be a Christian and I am not qualified to say you are or are not. However, your latest statements are completely contrary to what the bible says.
First, God does not tempt or “give” people more than they can handle. Do not blame God for what individuals or society does to themselves. God has given us free will to choose the life we want to live. Again, don;t blame God when it goes awry.
Second, I have no control over how others treat homosexuals. I will not treat them any differently, which is to love them who they are as persons. If they ask me to approve of their lifestyle, I will have to respecfully decline.
Third, alcoholism is a disease and not a choice. That is a fact.
It’s a shame that you focused on my example as comparing the two issues (even when I explained it was an illustration) instead of understanding how we should treat the individual. You do not know where my heart was when I made the statement. I forgive you for judging me wrongly.
July 1, 2015 at 7:34 am
Ron says:
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integrity matters,
Just because I am willing to question and challenge God does not mean I do not believe. He gave me a mind and free will to think. I choose to take advantage of those gifts. If you want to be a blind sheep, that is your choice.
Nobody KNOWS what God does, doesn’t do, want or expect. Those who profess to know are overly arrogant,in my opinion.
If someone goes through something difficult in their life,a common expression from Christians is, “God does not give us more than we can handle”. If that is true, then we can assume if someone does not make it through, then he gave that person too much.
I am not sure if either, neither or both of those are true, but do you understand the logic?
Alcoholism is a self-imposed disease, and should not be more tolerated and/or accepted by society than homosexuality. In my opinion, God does not make people alcoholics, they bring that upon themselves by making poor choices.
You said, “I will not treat them any differently, which is to love them who they are as persons. If they ask me to approve of their lifestyle, I will have to respectfully decline.” It is this thinking that is the problem. The fact that you think they should not be allowed to be treated under the law the same as male-female couples is proof that are treating them differently. They are not asking you, integrity matters, to accept their lifestyle. They just want to have the exact same rights and privileges as male-female married couples,in the eyes of the law.
Regarding your slippery slope argument, let’s assume the SCOTUS decided against gay marriage and left it to the states. Could a state ban any other type of marriage such as 2 African-Americans, interracial, second marriages? Where would it stop? See, the slippery slope card can be played by both sides of every decision.
July 1, 2015 at 1:51 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron –
I pray that God opens your (and others) heart and mind to understand the truth.
Asking God questions to help you understand is healthy and appropriate. Getting angry at God is also understandable. But to question and challenge God, in the context that I am interpreting from your comment, is arrogant. Who are you (or any of us) to challenge God and why He allows things to happen. Were you there when He created the universe?
He sees and knows the whole picture, you don’t.
The only thing we know is what He has told us, in His Holy word, the bible. Unfortunately, people like yourself don;t want to believe it because you have believed the lies that “it was written by man and he is flawed”.
If you believe that there is an all knowing, all powerful, omnipotent and omniscient God, why can’t you believe that he could have His Holy word written down EXACTLY the way He wanted. There is even a curse in the bible warning anyone that desires to change it.
If you don’t believe that is possible, than you are saying God has limitations.
You said, ” If someone goes through something difficult in their life,a common expression from Christians is, “God does not give us more than we can handle”. If that is true, then we can assume if someone does not make it through, then he gave that person too much.”
Wow!! So you are removing the responsibility from the individual committing suicide (or making any number of other poor choices in other circumstances) to make a better decision or seek help/guidance (etc), and blaming God. You can make this same excuse for any other poor decision people make because they couldn’t handle the circumstance.
With that logic, it’s God’s fault that some guy kills his wife and kids because she wants to leave him. He was going through something difficult in his life. It’s not his fault.
You know, Ron, that is the problem with the world today. Nobody wants God in their life , so God gives them that freedom. Then, when something goes wrong, they blame God and say “where were you?” or “if there was a God, He wouldn’t allow that to happen”. No one wants to take responsibility for their actions.
To answer your question, no, I do not understand your logic.
You said, “In my opinion, God does not make people alcoholics, they bring that upon themselves by making poor choices”. God does not make people homosexuals, either. If He did, He would be creating something that is directly contrary to what He says us not to do. Additionally, based on your statement, I guess you think homosexuals deserve to get HIV/AIDS.
There would be no STD’s in this world if everyone followed God’s direction to be not have sex until you are married and to be monogomous. These were not commandments, either, but instructions in the bible. I would say that was true or did man make that one up, too.
With regards to your comment about treating homosexuals differently and the law, please re-read my response. I said nothing about treating them differently under the law. I said ” If they ask me to approve of their lifestyle, I will have to respecfully decline.”
There is no law that will ever be passed that will force me to approve of their or anyone else’s lifestyle.
With regards to the laws passed, I’ve said in other posts to make laws that deal with tangible issues (taxes, life decisions, etc). I have no problem with that. My problem is that they are defining marriage as something other than what it was naturally intended to be. By doing so, and the reasons they justified it, it will eventually open Pandora’s box to include other scenarios.
You’re slippery slope argument doesn’t hold water. Want proof? No one has brought them up and the interracial issues have already been settled.
No need to pray for me. My faith is strong. The difference is that I also have a very strong analytical side, that God also gave me. I very rarely ask anything of God since He has already given me more than I deserve. I usually thank and praise Him when I pray.
Nobody KNOWS the truth until Judgement Day, period. That is why it is called belief and faith.
You said, “Who are you (or any of us) to challenge God and why He allows things to happen.” Yet, you have no problem judging others whom He created and want to restrict their rights.
He has told me nothing. I use the Bible as a guide, but under the pretense that man physically wrote the words based on his own interpretation. When He comes to me and tells me exactly what He expects, I will change my mind.
We will have to agree to disagree on God’s will, His role in creating people, and His influence in people’s lives. Neither of us knows nor should be so arrogant as to assume.
You totally missed my point regarding how people handle what God gives them. It is not always about blame. Are saying that if someone gets through something difficult, we give God credit for giving someone so much to handle as to barely survive, but no responsibility if He gives someone just a little too much? You cannot have it both ways.
Nobody is asking you to accept or approve anything. Telling 2 consenting adults they cannot have the same legal rights as 2 other consenting adults is wrong.
Marriage, as a legal contract, between a man and a woman is no more a natural occurrence than same-sex marriage. Only reproduction is naturally occurring.
July 2, 2015 at 8:16 am
Ron says:
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My summation:
Directly from the Constitution:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
This is a purely legal issue. Keep religion out of it. Nobody is saying you, your religion, nor any other citizen cannot be personally against gay marriage, but the law must recognize it as valid. That is what our Founding Fathers would have wanted.
July 2, 2015 at 11:27 am
integrity matters says:
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Ron –
You’re responses are exactly what I mean about society and no one believes in absolute truth. Do you believe there is absolute truth?
People, yourself included, are using the bible as a guideline. Picking and choosing what works for their own personal life and belief system. Using that logic, why isn’t murder or stealing up for interpretation? I know, because they are specific commandments, which you choose to believe is true.
God in not a god of confusion. He does not tell us one thing or provide direction (commandment or otherwise) and then purposely do something else to make us fail. How ridiculous would that be?
You said, “Nobody KNOWS the truth until Judgement Day, period. That is why it is called belief and faith.”
Jesus said, “I am the way, the TRUTH and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
I know the TRUTH. That is why I believe and have faith.
Jesus was not just a man. He was also God incarnate. He was both fully human and fully God.
Regarding God’s will, Paul in his first letter to the Thessalonians (4:3-5) wrote “It is God’s will that you should be sanctified; that you should avoid sexual immmorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not to passionate lust like pagans, who do not know God”
Louie in another post brought up Leviticus. In Chapter 18 verse 22, it says, “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.”
That seems pretty clear to me.
Regarding “too much to handle”, you are missing the point. You are blaming God when someone, by their on free will, commits suicide. You are saying “God gave them too much to handle”. Their individual situation may have been self-inflicted, again by their own free will choices. Even if it was not self inflicted, they still made the choice to end their life. There was another option that could have gotten them through the pain/situation.
You said “Nobody is asking you to accept or approve anything. Telling 2 consenting adults they cannot have the same legal rights as 2 other consenting adults is wrong.” Why shouldn’t 3 or 4 or 12 consenting adults have the same legal rights as 2 consenting adults?
Finally, mans laws are written by man and are flawed. This is your argument to not believe everything in the bible. Gods laws and direction are logical and wise. Mans laws will never have or contain the wisdom that God’s laws have.
I agree that the country would be better if everyone had complete faith and followed God’s laws, but that is not how it works. If you have a problem with that, then you are against the Constitution and our Founding Fathers.
You said, “I know the TRUTH. That is why I believe and have faith.” Those are contradictory. If you KNOW TRUTH, you would have knowledge, not belief and faith.
I have belief and faith, but not the arrogance to say I know what is TRUTH. I believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. I am just not arrogant enough to profess to KNOW.
I truly respect your position from a religious standpoint. But, as I said before and supported on my summation, it is irrelevant in this country, period. We are not a theocracy.
You said, “Picking and choosing what works for their own personal life and belief system.” At what point have I picked and chose what works for me? I am arguing from strictly a legal standpoint. I am not trying to convince you that you should accept or approve of homosexuality based on your religious beliefs. Unlike you,I have the ability to separate what is/should be acceptable between a religious and legal standpoint. Sometimes they align, sometimes they do not.
You asked, “Why shouldn’t 3 or 4 or 12 consenting adults have the same legal rights as 2 consenting adults?” Because 3 or 4 or 12 do not equal 2. If that comes up for debate, I will stand with you because I foresee complex legal issues regarding rights, benefits, and separation. It will not be from a moral or religious stand point.
In my opinion, statements like, “Even if it was not self inflicted, they still made the choice to end their life.” and “There was another option that could have gotten them through the pain/situation.” trivialize what these people are going through who make that decision. Yes it was their decision, but it is not like they were deciding what to wear to what to have for dinner.
July 2, 2015 at 1:52 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron –
Our founding fathers wanted this country to have freedon OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. It was based on the tyranny they saw with the Church of England over Britain. Different topic, let’s not go down that road.
My statements are not contradictory. I know the TRUTH (Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins, was resurrected and will come again), which is why I BELIEVE the bible is absolute truth, and I have FAITH that I will live eternally in heaven because of all that.
If you say you have belief and faith, but but do not profess to KNOW, I call that doubt and seems contradictory to having FAITH. How can you have belief and faith in something that you doubt and not know it is true?
Thank you for respecting my your position from a religious standpoint. I do not want to live in a theocracy. I’ve said before, my opposition to this decision is not strictly based on my religious belief, but on the eventual effects on society as a whole and in the future.
Regarding the polygamy question, complex legal issues regarding rights, benefits, and separation can all be figured out. Assuming they can, I guess you would be okay with it?
Regarding the suicide discussion, please stay on topic, which was that you were blaming God for their decision. I was pointing out it was still their decision and God is not to blame.
At last – really happy it passed. Not gay but have never believed in discrimination. Hopefully the employment laws etc will catch up. Sorry for the fake Christians who are so offended and feel their rights are violated. You must have much larger issues.
My rights as a Christian have not been violated by this decision. My larger issues, as you call them, are the slippery slope SCOTUS just created.
Using all the reasons why gay marriage should be allowed (i.e. they should be allowed to love and marry whomever they want, they want the same rights as heterosexual couples, they were born that way/that’s their sexual orientation), everything else should be allowed…polygamy, pedophilia, beastiality, incest, etc. After all, all the people that have an orientation towards those behaviors were born that way, too, and are simply doing it out of love.
True Christians view homosexuality as being a sin the same as their own sin (adultery, lust, lying, etc). EVERYONE is a sinner. The difference is that Jesus said to go and sin no more. He does not want us to perpetuate the sin. True Christians realize they make mistakes and try to not continue to live in sin. It is hard for everyone not to sin. No one should condone and celebrate sin. True Christians hate the sin but love the sinner.
The problem with society is that no one wants to admit that homosexuality is a sin. I am not condemning anyone for this behavior, I am only calling it for what it is.
Should we celebrate adulterers??? How about thieves???
As a society, we have drawn lines and have determined that one type of sin is worse than the other. In God’s eyes, sin is sin and there is no place in His Kingdom for it. That is why He sent His son, Jesus, to be the sacrifice for our sins. We only need to ask His forgiveness and believe that He died on the cross for us and was resurrected. His sacrifice was a gift. We only need to accept that gift.
3 words, two consenting adults. There, I just destroyed your argument. Now you may sleep better.
Do you have a non-religious objection to gay marriage. We do not live in a theocracy. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.
You said,”The difference is that Jesus said to go and sin no more.” Does that mean we are only allowed to sin once?
Homosexuality is not one of God’s Commandments not one of the 7 deadly sins.
How can you equate 2 consenting adults committing love to each other to adultery and thievery? Both of those are against God’s Commandments and harm other people directly.
How do you KNOW God’s will? A book physically written by man, who is flawed? Nobody KNOWS God’s will on Earth. Let’s try to treat each other with respect and understanding. We are not to judge, it is way above any of our pay grades.
If all gay people go to Hell or are banned from Heaven, so be it. I personally do not believe that, but it is your right to do so.
Thanks, I sleep just fine. Nice try on your attempt to destroy my argument.
If your answer, “two consenting adults”, is supposed to negate the other areas of sexual orientation, then you are discriminating against those people.
Certainly polygamy is likely to be entered into by consenting adults. Who are you, or the courts, to say it should only be two? Pedophilia – the left is more than willing to hand out condoms and birth control and allow underage abortions without the parents knowing about it. If a thirteen year old can make those decisions, who are you to say they can’t have sex with an adult? Afger all, they only love the person.
Stop being a hypocrite, Ron, or is that where you draw your morality line?
These ARE my non-religious reasons on why I object to gay marriage.
If a gay couple wants the same rights (pertaining to property, life decisions, tax implications, etc), then pass laws addressing those issues.
You said/asked “,”The difference is that Jesus said to go and sin no more.” Does that mean we are only allowed to sin once?” Jesus knows that we cannot/will not sin only once because we are human. Trying not to sin is a matter of the heart. We make mistakes and succumb to temptation. Purposeful disobedience for selfish gain is rebellion. God wants us to live righteouslly because it is for our benefit, not His.
You said “Homosexuality is not one of God’s Commandments not one of the 7 deadly sins.” So I guess in your mind that everything else is okay? Again, pedophilia should be okay with you because it doesn’t make those lists.
You said “How can you equate 2 consenting adults committing love to each other to adultery and thievery? Both of those are against God’s Commandments and harm other people directly.” Because they are doing it with love as the basis. Adulterers who love each other but have bad marriages shouldn’t be blamed if you follow the love logic.
Thieves love money/things. Aren’t you denying their right to pursue happiness?
Guess what, homosexuality harms people directly, too!
Regarding God’s will, since I am human, I cannot possibly know the entiriety of GOd’s will. However, I do believe that God, who created the entire universe and everything that is in it, has the ability to inspire dozens of men over hundreds of years to write down EXACTLY what He (God) wants to say and how He would like us to live our lives AND without ambiguity.
FYI, there is NOTHING in the bible that has been historically disproven. In fact, the bible continues to be proven true as time goes on.
As I said before, I am not condemning (judging) anyone. It is not my job. I respect what other people want to believe. Why is it that society is not expected to respect what Christians believe?
I believe that there is an absolute truth. God is that absolute truth. Society can believe whatever it wants to believe, but it will never change the absolute truth.
Finally, there are going to be many sinners (homosexuals, liars, adulterers, thieves, murderers, etc) that will be forgiven and accepted into heaven. There will also be many so-called “Christians” that will not be accepted into heaven because they did not truly believe in Christ and ask for forgiveness of their sins. They think by being a “good person”, they will get into heaven.
You thoughts are coming too much from emotion and not from an analytical standpoint.
Where you,me or anyone draws our individual line of morality is irrelevant. The law is not to dictate morals because we each have our own line. They are to protect their citizens from actual harm from each other. Where does it state in the Constitution that the government is to legislate morality?
From a legal stand point, polygamy can cause problems if only one person wants out or if 2 people want to divorce from the third. That is why I am against that. In my opinion, this is not a precedent for polygamy, period.
Regarding pedophilia, that involves minors and, in my opinion, should never and will never be legal. To believe homosexuality has anything to do with pedophilia is so off base,I do not even know where to begin.
Regarding adultery and thievery, I stand by my position that they are against God’s Commandments and, even more importantly, harm others.
You said, “Why is it that society is not expected to respect what Christians believe?”
You said, “In fact, the bible continues to be proven true as time goes on.” Please provide your evidence
You said, “Finally, there are going to be many sinners (homosexuals, liars, adulterers, thieves, murderers, etc) that will be forgiven and accepted into heaven. There will also be many so-called “Christians” that will not be accepted into heaven because they did not truly believe in Christ and ask for forgiveness of their sins. They think by being a “good person”, they will get into heaven.” Please correct that statement by beginning with, “In my opinion” or provide PROOF, not references to a book.
There is a reason it is called FAITH and not FACTS.
June 29, 2015 at 3:52 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron,
You said, “Where you,me or anyone draws our individual line of morality is irrelevant. The law is not to dictate morals because we each have our own line. They are to protect their citizens from actual harm from each other. Where does it state in the Constitution that the government is to legislate morality?”
Like it or not, believe it or not, our laws were originally based on the bible. Many early laws made adultery and sodomy a crime. Somewhere along the way, someone siad the same thing as you “morality is irrelevant” and look at society today. Using your argument, where does it state in the Constitution that the government is suppose to legislate healthcare or the myriad of other intrusions that it does?
The left wants to pick and choose what works for them in the Constitution just like people choose what they want to follow in the bible. If they don’t like it, change it. If it feels good, do it.
Truth does not change.
For the record, I am against all of the things I mentioned before. Can you at least admit that the decision is a slippery slope because some, if not all, of these other forms of debauchery will likely come into play.
Here is a link identifying some of the biblical facts proven through history.
You never answered my question why society should not be expected to respect what Christians believe, but you expect us to respect the crap that society believes in.
For me, my faith and my God and His word, is a fact.
All of the other religions of the world (excl atheism)are “works based” religions meaning you have to do something or be a good person to enter heaven. Christianity is the only one that requires self reflection and belief that you need a savior to forgive you of your sins. There is nothing any individual can do to erase the sin in their entire life. No amount of good performed by that individual will overcome it.
That is a FACT!
June 29, 2015 at 4:34 pm
bob says:
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Integrity,
You sir, whether you are Catholic or not, are a true believer.
Your abilities to remain calm are better than my own, and your points here while challenged by modern society are good ones.
You are a balance of God’s love and God’s expectations, and I like it. Good posts.
June 29, 2015 at 4:43 pm
integrity matters says:
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Thanks, Bob. To God be the glory. I am trying to be gracious as best as possible. Unfortunately, I’ve lost my temper with Celtica and should not have responded to her the way I did.
June 30, 2015 at 3:55 pm
Agent says:
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Integrity, all you need to know is found in Matthew 19: 4-6. It can’t be spelled out any clearer that marriage is between one man and one woman.
June 30, 2015 at 4:51 pm
I'm Jewish says:
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Matthew 19: 4-6 does not exist in any of my religious doctrines. Maybe we shouldn’t try to apply that to every single citizen of the United States either?
July 1, 2015 at 2:09 pm
integrity matters says:
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Dear I’m Jewish,
In case you didn’t know, it is in your Torah and part of the Pentateuch.
When God created Eve for Adam in Genesis 2, verse 24 says “That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.”
God didn’t create a husband for Adam. He created a wife. Don’t you think he would have created a husband for him if God thought that was the best thing to do?
Maybe every citizen should know what God intended to be the best mate. Do we know better than God?
July 1, 2015 at 3:12 pm
I'm Jewish says:
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Dear integrity matters, I stand by my original statement that Matthew 19:4-6 does not exist in any of my religious texts. I have no idea how you can try to argue otherwise.
I bring up my faith for one reason. Just because one believes in the teachings of the Old Testament does not mean they must be against same-sex marriage.
Conservative Jewish stance: In June 2012 the Committee of Jewish Law and Standards, voted 13-0 with one abstention to formally approve gay marriage ceremonies.
Reform Jewish Movement: they have called for civil same-sex marriage for many years.
Reconstructionist Jewish Movement: they have expressed support for the full inclusion of gay men and lesbians in all aspects of Jewish life.
You can believe in God and in the teachings of the Old Testament and support gay marriage. Even those Jews who identify as Conservative are on board with gay marriage.
July 2, 2015 at 11:38 am
integrity matters says:
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Thanks for the info, I’m Jewish.
There have been many Christian denominations that have also approved gay marriage. That does not mean that it is okay with God.
If our respective faiths decided that it is okay to murder someone, should we just accept it because that is what the will of the people is? (Illustration only…I am not trying to equate homosexuality with murder)
Using one of Ron’s comments, unless God tell me Himself that homosexuality is an okay lifestyle, I will choose to believe what He told us in the bible.
July 2, 2015 at 12:26 pm
I'm Jewish says:
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Fair enough. You definitely make some valid points.
You asked ‘If our respective faiths decided that it is okay to murder someone, should we just accept it’
Murder whom exactly? Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or someone like that? In that case, yes, I would accept murder since killing one life will save countless innocent lives.
If that someone is my next door neighbor who steals my newspaper every morning or if it is a generic you-can-murder-anyone-you-want, then no, murder is bad.
The devil is in the details as they say.
July 2, 2015 at 1:12 pm
integrity matters says:
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I am going to get blasted for opening this can of worms…
You asked “murder whom exactly”?
Unborn children?
You see, society has a way to “excuse” or “reason” why something should be acceptable. The slippery slope.
Case rested
June 29, 2015 at 2:54 pm
Flagent/insured says:
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Ron, do you believe a business should be sued because they do not want to provide services for a gay wedding? I have declined to do business with a prospect more than once in my career because I felt they would be a difficult client. Are you saying you believe people should be forced to do business with everyone or be threatened with a lawsuit?
That is a tough question. I believe businesses should be able to conduct business with whomever they choose. However, if you are going to base your decisions on religious beliefs, all of your religious beliefs should be considered. For example, if you only conduct business with fellow heterosexuals because of your Christian beliefs, fine. However, you should also not conduct business with adulterers, the divorced, those who had children out of Christian wedlock, or anyone else who lives a lifestyle contrary to your religious beliefs. Basically, do not be a hypocrite.
June 29, 2015 at 3:57 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron,
There is a difference between responding with love and forgiveness and not condoning and supporting behavior that is against your beliefs.
I agree that if an adulterer walks in and says, I want to send flowers to my mistress, they should deny to serve them. The problem is, people do not do that because they know it is morally wrong.
The gay community does not think homosexuality is morally wrong.
We need to get away from the morality of the issue and stick with the legal aspect. As I said before, we are not a theocracy and we do not and should not legislate morality. If you could gain a consensus on what is and what is not moral, from a non-religious point of view, they maybe.
You may move to Saudi Arabia, Iran or any number of other theocratic countries.
You said, “The gay community does not think homosexuality is morally wrong.” What if they are not wrong? They probably believe that because, to them, that is how God made them. Until God comes down and says otherwise, who are we to judge?
June 29, 2015 at 4:39 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron
God has already spoken on the subject. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and said a man should not lie with another man.
He made man and woman to be one. Man and man cannot procreate naturally. Neither can woman and woman.
If you are not seeking to make this country a theocracy, why are you advocating for laws based solely on religious beliefs? Even if homosexuality was a choice, what is the legal basis to stop them from getting married, yet allowing same sex couples to get married?
How about this, marriage is only recognized within each couple’s religious institution(s) and they can have a civil union recognized by the state?
June 29, 2015 at 5:39 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron,
I said it before, I am not against gay marriage solely based on religious beliefs.
MArk this date down that I predicted the future. Marriage laws will be changed to at least include polygamy in the future, because of this decision.
Decriminalization against pedophilia will take place when the child is a willing participant. The age of “understanding” will likely be reduced to accomodate this.
I am not against civil union’s. That would at least draw the lines between “socially acceptable” behavior and those that are not.
June 30, 2015 at 8:32 am
Ron says:
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integrity matters,
I will mark down the date. Can you provide a timeline, so in the event these things do not happen, we can hold you to account for false predictions?
June 30, 2015 at 2:44 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron –
My magic eight ball says “not likely”.
Based on the past history, prayer was taken out of the schools in the 1960’s and it took 65 years to have society deteriorate to this level. Since people don’t care about anything that doesn’t affect them personally, my best gues is that we will see a change in the polygamy law within 15-25 years and the age of consent to have sex with an adult within 25-35 years.
I sincerely hope that you can call me out on those predications. I’ll consider it a win for mankind!
July 2, 2015 at 10:43 am
Agent says:
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Hey Jewish, I hate to tell you this, but the book of Matthew is in the new testament of the Bible, not the Old Testament. Matthew was a disciple of Jesus. It is not surprising that the book is not in your religious texts of Jewish teachings. After all, the Jews rejected Jesus and had him crucified for his teachings. They expected their Messiah to be a military guy and come in and kick the Romans out and he just didn’t measure up to their expectations.
July 2, 2015 at 11:24 am
I'm Jewish says:
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Agent, your lack of reading comprehension is scary. Why do you hate to tell me Matthew isn’t in the Old Testament? I already said that same thing twice. I know it is not in there. I said so twice before you chimed in. That has been my point since I made my first post.
June 29, 2015 at 12:10 pm
louie says:
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Jesus also said “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.”–Mark 12:30. He welcomed EVERYONE, regardless of profession or social status. I have to think that if Jesus were on earth today, He would also welcome homosexuals.
There are so many parts of the Bible which contradict other parts, and it’s important to remember that a lot of it was written in the context of its time. Look at all the passages concerning slavery and how to treat women: We can all (hopefully) agree that those are not right today.
I’m a heterosexual Christian. I teach my children that God made EVERYBODY and didn’t make “mistakes.” I can’t believe God would create a bunch of people just to condemn them to Hell.
Much of the central message of the Bible is hope, salvation, forgiveness, grace, and love. THAT’S what we should be reinforcing. It’s those who take certain passages literally that are turning so many away from the Church, when instead we should be welcoming all. Life is way too short as it is.
Yes, Jesus welcomes everyone. We are to love everyone, even our enemies. But, Jesus did not give us permission to sin. In fact, He told the prostitute that was about to be stoned to “go and sin no more”. He also convicted the Samaritan woman (in her heart) at the well that her present relationship was not appropriate. He offered love and forgiveness.
Also, the bible does not contradict itself. If you think it does, then you need to discuss your concerns with someone that can assist with the interpretation. Some of the things in the bible are contextual with the times that they applied to (I do not know what verses you are referring to regrding treating women, because there are none that I am aware of that are meant to harm or disrespect them). However, God’s principles and what he wants for our lives are timeless, as is His wisdom.
I AGREE that God does not make mistakes, which is why the gay and transgender arguments that they were “born” this way, is an excuse to avoid that it is actually a choice.
We are all “born” with original sin. That original sin will “bend” each of us in a certain direction in which we are vulnerable to temptation.
Louie, the message of the bible is all the things you mentioned, that is the GOOD NEWS!. But there is a downside if people don’t believe that sin is real. There are consequences. This is like telling your children about all the good and fun things in life and not warning them about the danger to avoid.
There was a reason why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Do you really think God thinks homosexual behavior is okay? If He does, I guess He needs to apologize to them.
Check out the book of Leviticus for rules on how to treat women during their menstrual cycle. It speaks to the times when it was written. I doubt you follow those rules now, do you? There are several instances like this.
As Ron stated, the Bible was written by MAN. As Christians, we believe it was divinely inspired, but it was also interpreted BY MAN. The original text has been translated many times over the years. There were several books that never made it into the Bible.
A lot of the Bible was written to try and explain things that people did not understand in those times. For instance: I’m not 100% positive but I think I can say with a reasonable amount of certainty that man did not originate from dust and women were not made from his rib. I’m also reasonably certain that there was not a global flood which destroyed 99.9999% of life on earth.
However, the overall message of salvation, grace, love, hope and forgiveness CONTINUES to be found throughout the Bible, even in those sections which may not be scientifically or historically accurate. You find these messages in a lot of other religions as well, believe it or not.
Do gay people CHOOSE to be that way, or were they born that way? Did you CHOOSE to be hetero, or were you just born that way?
Questioning certain things in the Bible isn’t a bad thing; if anything it makes us stronger. The God I believe in is an all powerful force which created ALL living things and loves all. Some things we are meant to understand, and some we never will.
There is a reason why the Supreme Court follows the Constitution for guidance and not the bible. There is also a reason why we follow the separation of church from state. Any state that follows the religious teachings also runs the risk of fanatically interpreting it the way Isis is doing in the Mid east.
June 29, 2015 at 4:26 pm
integrity matters says:
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Louie,
Yes, Louie, Leviticus explained how personal hygeine should be handled. Of course, our hygeine has gotten better, so what is your point?
If you are a Christian, how can you not believe that God can accomplish anything through anybody? You are believing the secular theory that the bible is not completely true. There are reasons why books were left out…because those that were inspired by God did not believe them to be 100% accurate.
Man’s interpretation are based on the best translations available for the various original Hebrew and Greek. In some instances, we have more words to describe the intent. Some are better than others but they are relatively synonomous.
Regarding man’s origin, I guess you believe we came from some amoeba that crawled out of the ocean and somehow evolved into a miraculous living and breathing and thinking and creating creature.
Don’t believe in the flood??? Explain how various cultures around the globe have their own stories about the flood. They have been passing those stories down for thousands of years before the internet, Skippy.
You can pick and choose whatever you like out of the bible and ignore anything you don’t like if it makes you feel guilty or if you just can’t believe it. It’s your choice, but it doesn’t change the truth.
I was born a man and designed to be with a woman, just as God intended. “Science” created the word heterosexual.
God definitely loves all of his creation. But, He is also a God that believes in justice. He’s shown His love by providing a way for us to be saved.
June 29, 2015 at 4:30 pm
integrity matters says:
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Celtica –
There is a reason why this country has gone to hell in a hand basket and it is because of decisions like this by the Supreme Court and left wing blind sheep like you.
The separation of church and state is not in the Constitution and the doctrine has been incorrectly manipulated and interpreted. But you only believe what you have been told by the media so I don’t expect you to understand or think for yourself.
Integrity — There is really not much difference between religious fanaticism for either the Bible or Koran. You fall into the former but could have easily fallen into the latter, except for the soil upon which you were born.
So you didn’t like the SCOTUS ruling. The one that granted all Americans the right to marry. How uncharitable — and unchristian like of you. Do unto others as you would have done unto you. One of the most basic commandments of the bible. And you don’t like it. For shame, for shame, for shame.
June 29, 2015 at 5:54 pm
integrity matters says:
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HAHAHA, Celtica. Your ignorance makes me laugh, and honestly, I feel sorry for you. If you only knew what the Christian life really means, and I pray that someday you do. Salvation is available to you.
The only minor difference between the bible and koran is that Christians don’t behead those that don’t believe in or convert to Christianity. I guess its a good thing that Christians have better morals when it comes to death.
Don’t forget the Crusades, the Inquisition and the slaughter of Native Americans. We Christians do not have a very good record either.
June 30, 2015 at 3:25 pm
integrity matters says:
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Ron – Check your history. The Crusades took place as a response because the muslims were slaughtering Christians and others that would not convert to Islam.
Without a doubt, the Christians at that time went overboard and it was wrong. Unfortunately, “remember the Crusades” becomes a mantra of anyone who wants to bash Christians, even though they took place almost 1000 years ago. I think the Christians have done a lot better since then.
June 30, 2015 at 5:00 pm
bob says:
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“Don’t forget the Crusades, the Inquisition and the slaughter of Native Americans. We Christians do not have a very good record either.”
As integrity already mentioned, the crusades was the attempt of Christians to get their land back from the Muslims who conquered it. This was more about land than it was religion.
The comparison would be Russia destroying and taking Crimea, and then Ukraine comes in and says “Hey, that’s our land” and fights for it. Ukraine would be fighting for their land and it would not mark aggressive behavior.
The “slaughter” of Native Americans was not a Christian endeavor.
The Inquisition was not signed off on by Christianity, it was a move on governments to oppress, as they have always done. The inquisition was against Christian “heresy”, by the Government. It was against Christians not for them.
Anyone who looks into history can see that if anything, there has been a constant bias in either persecuting, labeling, or otherwise blaming Christianity for just about everything while the Muslims always get off the hook. You yourself focus more on Christian apologetics than you do the issues with Muslim faith.
Integrity, the flood gates have opened based on the Supreme Court ruling. Today’s GOP USA reports a guy in Montana wants to marry his second wife now legally or he will sue. Montana’s laws forbid polygamy and he has already been excommunicated from the Mormon church. My guess is that he will win given how it is going now and Montana’s law will be overturned. 7 children between them. Hmm! I wonder how he handles two wives.
June 29, 2015 at 10:48 am
FLagent/insured says:
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Mary, this goes way beyond same sex marriage. I should be able to do business with whom I see fit, just like any consumer has the right to buy from whatever business they choose. Our civil liberties as U.S. Americans are at stake. If you want gay marriage, fine, but dont tell me how I can conduct my business. This just opened up a whole can of worms.
What was done by the Supreme Court is disastrous for our nation. It means we have lost the ability to have laws that we want. It eviscerates the Constitution. After all the our founding document is a set of rules set down by the people on how we will be governed. That has gone out the window by 5 judges that at once arrogant and very stupid. What a sad day.
In this country, we cannot, and never had all of the laws that we want. If you go strictly by the Constitution, and ignore all other laws, the only thing that would be illegal in this country is treason. Is that what you want?
If the SCOTUS had an opposite opinion, the people on the other side of the argument, a majority of the country, would be saying the same thing. This country is not designed to make everyone happy.
Lou, this was a ruling that earlier laws banning the right of gays to marry was found to be unconstitutional. So, no, you cannot have the law you want because not everyone wants the same laws you want. For the party that professes to want less government in one’s life, you sure do want a lot of laws to regulate other people’s lives.
Integrity — you do not exhibit very Christian like behavior when people do not agree with you. You may talk the talk, but you surely do not walk the walk.
I was out for a week, vacationing in Chicago. Such fun times, I love that city! Can only afford it so often, though. Saw one of my buddy’s get married. He and his wife now live in Sweden but had a destination wedding in Chi-town. At any rate, I saw that Agent and the likes of him had a ROUGH week last week. Seeing the gay pride in Chicago on Sunday was great, so happy SCOTUS got that right!
As a non-Christian, I am confused. Please take my questions at face value – they are not meant to be argumentative, just looking for clarification.
1) One of the posts states that Christianity is a eligion of faith, not works, and that it doesn’t matter if you sin as long as you accept jesus. If that is true, then what is all the fuss about? Do whatever you want, sin or not, and you can get to heaven anyway.
2) Regardless of the answer to my first question, as a non-Christian I do not see gay marriage as a sin. If this is a country of religious freedom, then why can I not marry someone of the same gender if I so choose? Allowing me to marry whatever consenting adult I choose does not force those who believe it is a sin to also marry someone of the same gender.
Confused-
1. You do have to repent of your sin.
2. If we see it as a sin then we shouldn’t have to participate in anything associated with it. Making your wedding cake for example. Let’s take lying for example or maybe insurance fraud given the forum. I thinking lying is a sin, so don’t come to my agency and sit across the table expecting me to participate in you lying on your insurance application. Got it. Go commit fraud somewhere else.
Jack, the difference is that Christians are not perfect, just forgiven. There has been only one recorded perfect man who has ever walked the earth. He was crucified and died for our sins. I wonder how many politicians have asked forgiveness for lying to the American people about everything they have done. Non believers take lying to an art form. They don’t know right from wrong. It really is sad to see. An Atheist has nothing to look forward to after death.
Integrity, I would like to share a story with you on the wages of sin. It is kind of a joke, but serious as well.
A man was obsessed with playing golf all the time. He neglected his wife, kids, business until he lost his marriage, business and was estranged from his kids. One day, he was out playing golf and keeled over and died. Because of his sins, he went down and Satan met him at the gates of hell. When they opened the gate, he gazed out at a beautiful golf course which matched up with Augusta National. Satan told him that he could play for eternity. He would have the finest clubs, clothes, golf cart etc. He asked Satan what the catch was since hell is not supposed to be a nice place to end up. Satan said, the catch is that you don’t get any golf balls to play with. Now, that is “hell” for an avid golfer.
July 1, 2015 at 9:16 am
Rosenblatt says:
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That’s why I do the best I can to be a good person in this life. I do that because it’s the right thing to do, not because I hope my actions will allow me to get into heaven when I die. I may not believe in a higher power or heaven and hell, but I do believe in the morals and ethics that religion teaches.
July 1, 2015 at 2:21 pm
integrity matters says:
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Agent – good one. I’ve got one for you (you may have heard it).
An insurance agent dies and meets St. Peter at the Pearly gates. Peter advises that they are giving people the ability to spend 1 day in both heaven and hell, and they can decide where they want to spend eternity.
He sends the man into hell and when he gets there, it is a big party with all his old friends. He has a blast. The next day in heaven, it is very beautiful and serene and peaceful.
Afterwards, St. Peter asks him where he wants to spend eternity. The insurance agent says he really enjoyed heaven, but he had a lot more fun in hell. So St. Peter sends him to hell.
When the insurance agent gets there, the doors open and it is pain and torture and suffering. He asks Satan, “What happened to my friends and the party?”
Satan replies, “yesterday, you were a prospect,today your a customer.”
June 30, 2015 at 4:20 pm
integrity matters says:
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Dear confused non-christian,
Thanks for your post. I will try to answer your questions as best as possible. Please understand that much of what I give you has significantly more information and explanation that is needed behind it. There is not enough space in this blog to anser with the justification it deserves.
First question – you said/asked “Christianity is a eligion of faith, not works, and that it doesn’t matter if you sin as long as you accept jesus. If that is true, then what is all the fuss about? Do whatever you want, sin or not, and you can get to heaven anyway.
God wants to spend eternity with each of his creation. However, heaven is a pure place. Our sin separates us from God, prohibiting our ability to spend eternity with Him. In order to cleanse us of our sin, God sent His son Jesus to be the sacrifice for all of mankinds sins. Jesus willingly died on the cross for our sins, even though he was an innocent man. Three days after his death, he rose again to prove that he conquered death. This action was a gift to all mankind.
We, have to believe in our heart, that Jesus was the son of God and that He actually died and rose again. We must acknowledge that we have sinned and need forgiveness. Our hearts must be sincere when we do this because God knows our hearts. He will not be mocked and knows when we are pretending. Jesus’ death is not a license to sin, but should be recognized as the sacrifice He made. When we truly understand in our heart what He endured, just so that we can have eternal life with Him and God, it is overwhelming. It is life changing to the point that you no longer want to live in or with the sin that is in your life. It is a spiritual cancer that eats away at you. Follow Jesus changes that feeling because you know, and believe, that it is all true.
If you want to find out more, i sincerely pray that you seek a church that is biblically based to guide and explain and answer all the questions that follow.
Second question –
Unfortunately, the liberal society in which we live in has been lying to everyone for years in numerous areas. Many who do not believe in any God, thinks it doesn’t matter what we do because when we die, there is nothing that will be held against us for eternity (i.e. no hell to suffer in). Unfortunately for them, there is an eternity and we will either exist in it in heaven with God (eternal life) or in hell (eternal death).
What people don’t realize (or want to accept) is that this world is ruled by Satan, the father of lies. Satan’s sole purpose is to separate us from God. The evil that exists in this world is perpetuated by him, through others. Would you agree that there is evil in this world?
As explained earlier, heaven is pure. Any sin is a blemish. In God’s eyes, all sin is equal because it is still sin. We (man) have put weights on the various things do wrong. Adultery is worse than lying; stealing is worse than adultery; murder is worse than stealing. They are all blemishes that separate us from God. Homosexuality is considered an abomination to God and is a sin in His eyes. He feels the same way about adultery or any other sin (sexual or otherwise). God still loves us but He knows that is not what is right for our lives, no matter how innocent or pleasurable it may seem.
The reason this decision is a problem is become it further erodes the morality of our society. Society does not think homosexuality is immoral and they are lying. God says it is and I choose to believe the creator of the universe.
I am not condemning anyone for being gay because I am a sinner, too. We all need forgiveness for something, usually multiple things.
Your statement that consenting adults do not force others who believe it is a sin to marry someone of the same gender is true, however, they are trying to convince us that it is acceptable behavior and we should celebrate and accept it. That is forcing Christians to to believe it is okay.
Christians cannot force atheists to believe there is a God, why should we be forced to believe that homosexuality is okay? There is a level of intolerance being displayed from both sides.
Good testimony Integrity. I hope it makes an impression on some on this blog. We live in such a godless society now, but many people seek answers to the meaning of life and what comes afterward.
Integrity, have you ever wondered why we have literally hundreds of denominations of churches in this country and around the world preaching their version of Christianity and interpreting the Bible their own way? It is pretty mind boggling. In the old Testament, it is filled with stories of how the Children of Israel disobeyed God and his teachings and suffered for it with captivity and persecution. They just couldn’t get it right for long and worshipped false idols etc. I like the New Testament teachings about the Good News and Jesus the savior of all mankind. It is pretty clear that the only way to salvation is to trust Jesus,and ask forgiveness for your sins. You cannot do good deeds and be a good man and make it to heaven like Rosenblatt thinks he can do. The trust still has to be there.
July 1, 2015 at 4:54 pm
Rosenblatt says:
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Sigh. You exhaust me, Agent.
I wrote I do good ***not because I hope my actions will allow me to get into heaven***
I also wrote ***I may not believe in…heaven and hell***
You wrote “You cannot do good deeds and be a good man and make it to heaven like Rosenblatt thinks he can do.”
I do not think that Agent.
I clearly said I do good because I feel it is the right thing to do, NOT because it may allow me to enter heaven.
Got it??
I do good because it is the right thing to do. I do not act that way with the hope of making it to some after-death place which I do not believe exists.
July 2, 2015 at 10:23 am
Agent says:
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Rosenblatt, Sigh, you exhaust me. Now that you have pronounced yourself as an Atheist, I understand you better. There is nothing wrong with being a good man and doing good deeds in your life. Tell me, do you think the soul is eternal? Do you believe as General Patton did in re-incarnation and the soul keeps coming back as someone else down through the ages or do you think the soul just goes away after death? If you do, that must be a sad existence.
July 2, 2015 at 11:20 am
Rosenblatt says:
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I exhaust you? How? By always answering your questions and pointing out when you ascribe things to me that I never said (like you saying I do good only to get to heaven, which I clearly did not say)? Anyway…
“Tell me, do you think the soul is eternal?” Wrong question. I don’t believe there is a soul, so it’s a moot question if I think it’s eternal or not.
“Do you believe as General Patton did in re-incarnation…” Again. I do not believe there is a soul, so this is a moot question.
“Do you think the soul just goes away after death?” Again – no soul = moot question.
I have answered all your questions. Please answer mine:
Do you agree I said and believe that I do good just because it is the right thing to do, and NOT because I hope it will allow me to make it to some after-death place which I do not believe exists anyway?
July 2, 2015 at 12:05 pm
integrity matters says:
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Agent –
You probably already know this, but the Old and New Testaments go hand in hand with each other. The Old Testament explains the Jewish History and God’s interaction with them through history, leading up to and foretelling the prophecy of the coming messiah, Jesus. God gave us the Ten Commandments to follow, His law. Jesus, was the only person to fulfill those laws.
There are over 100 prophecies in the Old Testament describing who the Messiah was going to be. Jesus is the only person that fulfilled all those prophecies.
You mention how the children of Israel disobeyed God and couldn’t get it right for long. I am ashamed to say, but have to admit, that we CHristians are doing the same thing. We want to do things our way, not Gods way, because the “times and society” changes. God’s truths never change.
This is why we (and the world) needs a savior. Thankfully, God is gracious and merciful.
July 2, 2015 at 12:12 pm
integrity matters says:
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Rosenblatt –
You said “Do you agree I said and believe that I do good just because it is the right thing to do, and NOT because I hope it will allow me to make it to some after-death place which I do not believe exists anyway?”
I believe you do good because you think it is the right thing to do.
I have to ask, why do you THINK it is “the right thing to do”? Is it your own moral compass or someone else’s that taught you?
If there is no purpose to how we live our life (eternally speaking), what’s the point of doing good? Shouldn’t society just be selfish…survival of the fittest?
July 2, 2015 at 12:44 pm
Rosenblatt says:
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Thanks, IM. Still hope Agent will answer my question to ensure he properly comprehended what I said.
Q: why do you THINK it is “the right thing to do”? Is it your own moral compass or someone else’s that taught you?
A: Short answer: both. It’s a combination of what was taught to me in school (public and religious), what society has deemed ethical – or at least moral – actions to be, what my parents taught me, what I think is “right” based on my gut, and how I would hope someone else would handle the same situation if our roles were reversed.
Q: If there is no purpose to how we live our life (eternally speaking), what’s the point of doing good? Shouldn’t society just be selfish…survival of the fittest?
A: I would argue already live in a selfish society right now. That said, we can have both – people who treat others with respect that are also the fittest (Darwin-style). They are not mutually exclusive ideas/ideals. Who knows, being able to adapt and survive could be directly tied into society being able to live together in peace and harmony.
Wouldn’t that be best — a society of people who care for others, who are all trying to make the world a better place for future iterations of our species?
July 2, 2015 at 1:06 pm
integrity matters says:
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Thanks for your answers, Rosenblatt.
Indeed, a society that cares for each other would be ideal. But, we live in a selfish society, as you stated. The degrees of selfishness vary similar to the degrees of depravity.
I appreciate your honesty that part of your ethics and morality were religious based.
I believe we were all created with an inner sense of morality, to know right from wrong. This separates us from animals. We have the ability to reason and not react on instinct. But, even with that ability, there is still an absolute truth that we are all subject to.
This all comes from God. The further we move away from absolute truth, the more selfish we become and self centered on “what am I entitled to”?
July 2, 2015 at 4:09 pm
Agent says:
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Integrity, of course I knew that we had an Old Testament and New Testament and the Old Testament was basically a history lesson and prophesy foretelling the coming Messiah. Then, when they got the real Messiah, they didn’t believe it and had him put to death. To this day, Jews still don’t think Jesus was the Messiah since he didn’t fit with their belief of what he should have been. It is a good thing we have the New Testament proclaiming the good news or the Bible would have drifted away into obscurity and we wouldn’t have the Christian faith now.
July 2, 2015 at 4:23 pm
Agent says:
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Rosenblatt, I know exactly where you are coming from. You believe that man has no soul??????? If man has no soul, is he the same as a dog or cat, horse or cow? Out of all the animals created, man was the only one who could reason, communicate, create, advance to a higher order down through history. If he is lucky, he lives to be 70-80 years on earth and then vanishes, soul and all. Wow, what an existence you must have. You keep on being a good man and doing good deeds. At least you are like a doctor with the oath – First, do no harm.
Don’t be so narrow-minded, Agent. Octopi reason extremely well, even creating tools to solve problems they’ve never seen before! Dolphins have human-like communication skills complete with words, phrases and the ability to tell dolphins apart by the sound of their communications! We are not that different from anything else out there – after all, we’re all made of the same exact stellar material.
July 1, 2015 at 9:36 am
confused non-christian says:
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Integrity –
Thank you for your answers. I think I better understand your point of view to my first question. I consider myself open minded, and even though I am not Christian I do enjoy having discussions on religion with my Christian friends as long as the conversation remains civil and tolerant on both sides.
However, I don’t see how my second answer has been answered. Why is it Ok for people who believe for a religious reason that homosexuality is a sin to force others to live by thier religious standard? Let me give you an example – some of my Christian friends believe that playing sports on Sunday is a sin because Sunday is the Sabbath. Because of this belief, they chose to not watch NFL games on Sunday and I have never invited them to my house to watch a game on Sunday. We tolerate each other’s own personal beliefs. But, would it be correct for those who believe playing football on Sunday is a sin to pass laws outlawing football on Sunday? I anticipate someone may say this is not a moral argument, but I do know that for them it is.
Regarding your second question, I don’t think I have the perfect response to your question.
First, people not honoring the Sabbath has gone on for thousands of years so it is ingrained into those that are Orthodox that, that is a way of life.
I don’t know how old you are, but there were laws that existed years ago called “Blue Laws” that required businesses to be closed on Sunday. These have almost completely gone away for various reasons.
Second, I think the homosexuality issue is more problematic because of the concerns of further deteriorization of society. The young people of the past several decades have been, and continue to be, indoctrinated to believe things that society wants them to believe.
As a result, we have been desensitized to what is right or wrong based on individual choice and relativism. Very few believe that absolute truth exists. My truth might not be what someone else thinks is true. This has been the degradation of society.
So the question is, where does it (or should it) end? Thus, the slippery slope.
I’ll use an example for illustration purposes only and not to start a discussion on the topic. When Roe V. Wade was passed, it was initially meant and intended only for 1st trimester abortions because “it was only a fetus and not a real human being yet”. Today, abortion is a billion dollar, on demand industry. They can be performed anytime for any reason, even though we know that it is a living, breathing, viable baby.
If marriage is not defined and restricted to a man and woman, how many other ways can it (should it) be defined? No matter where society draws the line, someone is going to be discriminated against. The “outsiders” will be victims because they are not being allowed to “love” like others do and have the same rights as others.
Confused, please don’t lump all Christians into the same as your friends. There are several hundred denominations and they all believe a little differently. Most Christians go to church on Sunday and see nothing wrong with enjoying NFL football in the afternoon when they are resting. I enjoy watching PGA Tour golf when I am relaxing. Many pastors don’t have a problem with it either and let services out so people can get home in time for kick off. Many of the pastors are fans as well. Some people take their beliefs to an unreasonable level.
Really Rosenblatt? Comparing Octupi & Dolphins to humans? I thought you to be a reasonably intelligent guy. If they are so smart as you say, how come they have not evolved for millions of years?
There seems to be a misunderstanding of what I said. Not withstanding whether you support gay marriage or not, the court should not have taken it upon themselves to decide this issue for entire country. There is no provision in our Constitution for this. This is a states rights issue and should have gone through the states like it was appearing to do. Now we have judges, activist ones, who can decide anything they like. Terrible.
This is not a states issue. What happens when a same-sex married couple moves to a state that does not recognize such marriages? Should they just lose their rights and be treated differently? Should they be restricted to where they may move? What if they need to move for their career(s)?
We are the United States of America and each citizen should be treated equally, in the eyes of the law, anywhere in the country.
Jack, the United States of America is a real piece of work. Freedom is not free. The country is a melting pot and always has been. The problem we have now is that a very small portion of the population wants to dictate their beliefs on the majority of Americans. The Divider in Chief stokes the fire on any subject and look what we have.
You are right, Agent. A very small portion of the population does want to dicatate their beliefs on the majority of Americans. And that very small portion includes those likeminded with you, sir.
July 1, 2015 at 3:06 pm
integrity matters says:
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Celtica and Captain Planet,
Sometimes, it is prudent and wise to not do things, just because the majority is doing it.
My father used to say, if everyone is going to jump off a bridge, should you do it??
So I ask each of you, when the majority of the population thinks Polygamy, pedophilia heroin use and the myriad of other social ills is okay, are you going to agree with them??
Where do you draw the line?
July 1, 2015 at 3:51 pm
Realist says:
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Which bridge? How high is it? How deep is the water below? Is the water safe or is it filled with ravenous crocodiles?
I was being serious. Your question is faulty – who gets to decide what is and is not a social ill? 10 years ago, marijuana was a social ill – it’s not anymore. 200 years ago, slavery was a social ill – it’s not anymore. Maybe polygamy will follow along those lines. If you’re not hurting anyone, I don’t think the government should get involved. Pedophilia – yeah, that’s bad mmkay.
July 2, 2015 at 1:57 pm
Realist says:
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Pardon me – that should have read that 200 years ago slavery was NOT a social ill, but it is one now. I wrote that bass ackwards.
July 2, 2015 at 3:24 pm
integrity matters says:
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realist –
The point is that just because everyone “thinks” something is okay, it doesn’t mean that it is.
So you are okay with polygamy if it doesn’t hurt anyone. Just one?? Obviously, it will hurt someone.
But you want to discrimate against someone that loves another person? That’s not fair. Why should age matter?
If a mature 15 year old girl in high school asks for condoms from school, she’ll get them. If the condoms don’t work and she gets pregnant, she can go to planned parenthood and get an abortion. Both of these are allowed and condoned by society and they do not require parental consent.
If she tells planned parenthood that her 24 year old teacher is the father, he will lose his job, get arrested and sent to jail for being a pedophile and become a registered sex offender.
Is that fair? Society thinks the 15 year old is mature enough to have sex and deal with the consequences of sex, she just is not mature enough to pick the right partner?? You can’t have it both ways.
This is the sliipery slope that none of you want to admit exists. Some things need to be absolute.
No, I don’t get. 1st degree murder is different than 2nd degree murder, and justifiable homicide in self-defense is different than regular homicide.
Society can not apply one rule absolutely towards millions of people. We must acknowledge there are unique situations in every case that must be considered before we pass judgement.
Let me ask you something…
Say “person A” steals $1,000,000 from a charity and uses it to buy drugs. Separately, “person B” steals a loaf of bread to feed their starving family.
Should they be given the same punishment? If not – who gets to decide what should and should not be absolute punishments? If so – I do not want to be living in that world.
July 6, 2015 at 10:53 am
integrity matters says:
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Realist –
First of all, you are mixing apples and watermelons.
My example was a person making a decision that effects themselves (you know, the same excuse the gay community is using). Your example is where a persons actions affect others.
Second, of course there is a big difference in the motives and harm caused in your example, so the law and punishment should be commensurate.
Third, I am assuming by your absolute punishment comment that you are referencing eternal life and God’s judgment. That is strictly His decision. I don’t make the rules. My understanding is that sin is absolute and it separates us from God. We can’t enter heaven unless we are cleansed and forgiven of that sin.
How great is it that God will forgive everyone, regardless of what that sin is, if we only ask and believe?
Will you let anyone live in your house regardless of who they are and what they have done? God will. It definitely is a world that I want to live in.
July 1, 2015 at 7:39 am
Ron says:
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Jack,
You asked, “Why shouldn’t my CWP in SC apply anywhere in the US?”
How about buying alcohol? Some states used to be 18 years of age and others are 21. An eighteen year old can be recruited to die for their country but they cannot buy a beer unless they are 21.
Shouldn’t the people in Colorado and Washington be able to smoke weed in all the other states now that it is legal in their state?
Those are the choices you make because of your lifestyle and you should have to live with the pros and cons that come with it.
We live in the age of entitlements so everyone thinks they should have whatever they want, and whenever and whereever they want it. Life does not work that way and it is not suppose to work that way.
You intrigue me, integrity matters. I have met many like you but few who speak with such a righteously blind aplomb. Reading through your comments with Ron I came across a rather large contradiction in all of your ramblings.
“I think many, if not most, suicides by gay people are caused by a sense of internal guilt. That guilt could be that they are gay and don’t want to be; a feeling of causing disappointment to friends, family or God; or it could be that they want to be gay but don’t want to be public about their choice.”
Nice analysis, Skippy. A lot of profound assumptions there. The most profound is rooted in the first half of your second sentence.
“That guilt could be that they are gay and don’t want to be…”
Gay…but don’t want to be. I am confused. Choice, which you have vehemently debated homosexuality to be a matter of, does not make sense in that retrospect. How does one feel guilt for “being” when they have the choice of who they are to be. Did you misspeak or did you sabotage your entire argument with the only truthful thing you have said? Yes, some homosexuals do feel guilt because they are gay and don’t want to be. This is because they don’t have a choice and narrow-minded people like you keep fueling an intolerance that basically states, “You don’t live the life I do so in turn you are going to hell” You have somehow likened homosexuality to feeling guilty about being trapped in a room, however, the door leading out is unlocked. You are a Christian man and I can appreciate that. I cannot, however, appreciate your linearity when considering basic human rights. Separation of church and state is one of the finest things that has ever happened to our country. I am not asking you to change the view you have of yourself but maybe it would do you some good to change how you view (and in many cases talk to) others.
By the way, following the Bible is a choice…or is it?
Thank you tolerance matters. I just didn’t have it in me to read all the posts against equality and then reply. It seems so simple to me. If the people who fought for independence actually WANTED the United States to be a religious country (all laws based only on religion), they had the option.
Why didn’t they just declare the US a protestant or Christian nation and make all the laws strictly follow the bible? My guess is because that isn’t what they wanted.
July 1, 2015 at 3:18 pm
integrity matters says:
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tolerance –
I was merely trying to provide some examples. When i said that they are gay and do not want to be, it was meant in the contaxt of their actions, not their biological heritage.
Some people lie and feel guilty about it. It’s not in their DNA.
FYI, I have never said “You don’t live the life I do so in turn you are going to hell”, so please do not put words into my mouth. I have said the complete opposite.
I don’t decide who goes to heaven and hell, God does. He set the standard, I didn’t.
Everything I have shared is for the benefit of anyone who wants to learn and possibly believe. If they don’t, that is there choice. If I had a cure to save someones life, I would want to share it. That is all I am doing, except this has to do with ETERNAL life.
If I am wrong, Skippy, I am no worse off than anyone else who does not believe. If they are wrong, well, I hope you get the picture.
July 1, 2015 at 3:22 pm
integrity matters says:
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KY –
I wish all of you people open your ears. Where do you draw the equality line?
No one wants to answer the question if polygamists and pedophiles should have the same equal rights?
A thirteen year old should be able to sleep with 40 year old under the guise of love AND they should be able to get married, based on your logic.
Careful there my Islamic friend, if you keep describing your utopian marriages like that then Bob and Agent will have to re-think their upcoming marriage now that it’s legal in all fifty states. Allah-Akbar indeed.
So you are still hiding behind a false moniker Boogereater to spout your idiocy? You are the scum of the earth. Why not be a man and post under your true identity so you can be discredited.
Bobsbuttbuddy- You insult my God with your name and therefore I will wage Jihad on you and your butt buddy. You will be thrown from the highest roof top. Or you can bring me goats and young girls. Your call. snackbar to you too.
And I have called you out too bob. Your long winded replies are rivaling some short stories for length and you tend to ramble as well. I cut you a little slack for being from very blue Washington State. We call California, Oregon, Washington State the left coast geographically and politically.
I tend to think that my replies are long with purpose.
I am from a leftist coast, but that is why I have learned to fight with liberals differently.
You and I have similar beliefs but for different reasons.
For example when I debate the estate tax, I debate about what is moral like you, but then I also add in what works in economy, and I add studies showing that it harms capital. Then I show studies on the left showing that the capital growth is bad to hinder, and use examples like small local banks. Those usually arise over time when a wealthy family amasses enough wealth to start a small bank, then it grows more over time. Otherwise, if it gets slammed with an estate tax each generation, it usually simply gets bought at a very low cost by a big bank.
I explain a lot more as to why something is harmful. You may see it as long winded, but it is with a point.
When I say something it isn’t to make a right point more left, it’s to make a right based point understandable to the left.
What you don’t understand is that they see your comments that are short and to the point as not backed up, and unreasonable.
July 2, 2015 at 2:37 pm
Agent says:
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bob, I don’t have many gripes with you and you do a good job defending your views, but you have had little impact with the leftist trolls on this blog, particularly with Ron who will never absorb any of your information as correct. Progressives never admit that they are wrong about anything. Remember when I reminded you that he had voted for Obama twice when you were under the impression it was only once. Only a complete fool would have voted for Obama twice.
July 2, 2015 at 3:35 pm
integrity matters says:
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Agent,
I understand why Bob’s replies are long. I have found myself forced to justify my response, within my response, to circumvent the expected criticizm or to support my position.
Unfortunately, it seems that the longer the response, the more some get distracted and get lost.
I have to give kudos to Ron for the recent dialogues we have had. He has been respectful and thoughtful with his responses.
I must return the compliment regarding the civility of our conversations.
Hopefully Agent will realize that I can be reasonable and will accept one of the many olive branches I have extended to end our mutually disrespectful debates. Nothing is gained from insults, but I will not just sit around and take it.
July 6, 2015 at 6:48 pm
bob says:
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I know Agent. We both have had little affect with some of them I’m just saying my “attempt” is different in nature not that either is more successful on totality. If we combined parts of both of us we would certainly have better results. If we combined in more of Integrity’s level head you would have a heck of a conservative debater here.
As for the voting that just occurred so yes I recall. I was angry because I had successfully been fooled. Due to being more of a moderate, I can sometimes go into phases of thinking Ron is actually a moderate.
This is why there are sudden outbursts against Ron when I “realize” (again, how much of a battered wife am I here? I keep giving Ron chances in my mind on being a moderate) how much of a leftist he is.
It is basically me going into a “Did I seriously allow myself to think he was a moderate, again?”.
The posts I don’t comment on are the ones to pay attention to in those scenarios. Unlike some people here, there are many articles here I simply say nothing. These show some of the reasons why I finally come in pissed off at Ron.
July 1, 2015 at 3:37 pm
Agent says:
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Hi Integrity, this equal rights stuff drives me crazy. The libs on this blog will not answer your questions on where to draw the line. Pandora is out of the box now and the sky is the limit to them. The Utah polygamists will be jumping for joy if they get legitimized with their 10 wives in the household and 30 kids. The serial pedophiles will be able to line up young girls a lot easier and ruin many young lives. I believe a lot of the trouble we have in this country is tied to the breakdown of the family, not instilling proper values and morals and look what we have. Yes, it is a choice to be homosexual.
All this equal rights stuff is crazy? Let’s go back to the time when women couldn’t vote and we all owned slaves. That’s much better than having this “equal rights stuff” we have now. Also, Pandora is out of the box you say? How dumb are you? Pandora was never IN the box smartypants.
Pedophiles should not have equal rights because they are hurting other people, usually innocents who are not mentally or physically strong enough to stop it from happening.
As long as Polygamists aren’t hurting their wives and their wives are okay with it (see Hefner, Hugh) sure – give them equal rights too.
Happy?
July 2, 2015 at 3:49 pm
integrity matters says:
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That’s your opinion that pedophiles are hurting other people. To those that are willing participants, they think it is love. Based on society’s logic, you are discriminating against them. That’s what they say about people who think homosexuality is not socially acceptable.
Thanks for being honest that you are okay with polygamy. The problem is that someone is eventually going to get hurt.
That’s a weak argument, man. Kids who are not old enough to have even hit puberty can be willing partners in a sexual relationship? Come on. That’s junk and you know it.
July 6, 2015 at 10:58 am
integrity matters says:
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Confused –
I agree with you. But, what is your acceptable age of maturity? Puberty arrives at different times and can arrive as early as 8 years old.
My argument is not weak because that is what those who practice that will say. It is the same argument used for everything else.
July 9, 2015 at 4:38 pm
Agent says:
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Integrity, I need your opinion. Terry Dean, the Obama fundraiser/buddy in Oregon got caught along with his ex boyfriend sodomizing and sexual assault with a 15 year old boy and face charges. Are they pedophiles or what would you call them even if it was consentual?
July 2, 2015 at 5:02 pm
Agent says:
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Integrity, you may find a way to communicate with Ron and earn his respect and that is fine. That will last about one article and then Ron will be Ron as he has been the past 5 years trotting out his leftist comments and criticizing you for your opinion and facts.
By the way, he has often criticized my remarks about what has gone on in the past 30 years or so. I lived it and don’t need some link on a website to know right from wrong or what happened back in those days. Progressives in both parties have just about ruined this country with Democrats leading the way. Can we say $18 Trillion+ in debt yet? Can we repeat Nancy’s proclamation that this country doesn’t need religion, we have Democrats. What a dufus she has been and is.
I don’t know, Agent – Ron and IM have had some EXCELLENT discussions this week on many topics. How about you let IM come to his own conclusions and not just use this as an excuse to dump on Ron?
Agent, this country doesn’t need religion. It needs responsible, hard working citizens who can equally contribute to the greater good of this country for its future, regardless of their religious affiliations. Also, I think by now we all get your disdain towards Democrats and anything else non-YOU, however, I am still left with many questions regarding your personal beliefs. Do you truly think the country would be a better place if everyone were conservative? If so, why? In a sense that would be monopolizing public opinion and history shows that causes nothing but more problems. There will never be a day when everyone agrees with you. There will never be a day when you visit this website and discover that everyone has somehow changed their points of view to yours. That being said I can promise you, Agent, it will be okay. It is okay for people to have different opinions than yours. You seem like a very angry, hateful person who is not happy with life. In fact, in many of your comments you come across as a bitter bully who is upset things don’t always go your way. Looking just below I see a comment where you state, “It is not hard to tell the Christians from the Atheists, is it?” Why does that matter? Is someone automatically an atheist or, better yet, a Democrat if they object to a single thing you say or share a different perspective? You come across as someone completely consumed with their own opinions and not open to conversation that could potentially provide some enlightenment. I know that from my words you are going to immediately pose me as a confused atheist or hardcore liberal, however, I am neither. I am a citizen who agrees with arguments from both parties and has the spiritual awareness to realize it is okay if someone does not believe what I do. Also, I do not mean this in a cynical or belittling way : I hope you find peace in your life and mind.
This country does not need religion, but it does need God. Religion definitely gets in the way of what God really wants for our life because man has a selfish nature. We (mankind) naturally wants things our way.
That is why it is hard for anyone to understand that God’s ways are not mankinds ways. God doesn’t seem to make sense sometimes, but that is because He knows and sees the entire picture. Mankind does not.
If we all obeyed what God tells us to do, we would be better off, both individually and as a society. There is a fine line between “religion” and what God wants.
July 6, 2015 at 10:26 am
Agent says:
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Integrity, the laws were written making it Statutory Rape for an adult to have sex with an underaged victim. It really doesn’t matter if it is consensual or not or if it is the same gender. A lot of young lives have been ruined by the predatory perverts in our society.
Sometimes I just have to shake my head and laugh…
On the latest Chicago news – hang on planet… Chicago Police are preparing for a violent week end in Chicago. City of Chicago made their pension payment and a few hours later followed it with 1400 pink slips.
In Springfield, the Dems handed Rauner a budget that is 4 Billion short on cash. Of Course, Madigan bashed Rauner and Rauner asked the burning question – How are we gonna pay for this? We cant spend more then we have.
All this over shadowed the most important news story of the day- Brandon Saad has been traded away.
But, I am happy they finally settled the gay issue. To hell with 1400 jobs. Gays can now get married. YEA!
FFA- sounds like Greece. Socialism on display again for the world to see. Lean forward America!
July 1, 2015 at 3:41 pm
Agent says:
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FFA, something tells me that Planet did not attend his wedding on the south or west side of Chicago. Sorry to hear about the 1,400 lay offs of the Police Force up there. They have enough crime issues without laying off enforcement officers. Of course, Baltimore is the same way. Their cops are not even responding to trouble anymore for fear of doing something wrong and being charged for it. I think it is called Anarchy.
July 1, 2015 at 4:11 pm
FFA says:
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After re reading my post, I need to clarify – the pension & pink slips went to the Teachers Union. Union rep stated they were blind sided – they found out about the pink slips on the 09:00 pm news. Financial issues of the schools have been reported and the reported again. Blind Sided??? I think not. Total denial.
Funny watching Rahm blame Springfield. Meanwhile, Springfield blames Chicago for much of the financial woes. Now the knuckle head Dems in Springfield want to pass a one month budget and Rauner is saying no more temp fixes. Rauner wants Comp Reform, Pension reform, a property tax freeze. Meanwhile CPD is bracing for a wave of violence.
At least all gays can get married now.
July 1, 2015 at 4:17 pm
Agent says:
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Jack, I heard that Greece called on Obama for financial advice on how to solve their woes. Is that hilarious or what? Obama to Greece – Print more money. Surely you can print enough to get out of the ditch. If that doesn’t work, blame everything on Angela Merkel for not bailing you out yet again.
Agent, how smart are you? Greece can’t print it’s own money, they are part of the Euro. Greece can’t be compared to us for that reason, they don’t control their own currency like we do. DUH!
So FFA, you meant the teachers who were making upwards of $100,000 per year and had benefits out the kazoo were the ones with the pink slips? That teachers union needed to have their wings clipped.
July 1, 2015 at 4:24 pm
FFA says:
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Yes agent. It was the Teachers union getting Pink Slipped. Seems the Charter Schools (non union) are fine and a carrying the average grad rate way up. If you ask me, Rahm seems to be on to something by privatizing the schools. hmmmm. less govt interference = better results?
July 1, 2015 at 3:58 pm
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Hahahaha, Jack’s post almost made me spit out my drink. That was hilarious!
Well, McDonalds is making real “Progress” now that they have hired the former Obama mouthpiece Robert Gibbs as a VP Marketing. I saw a picture of a new McDonalds and the counter just had mini computers for people to order at which saves some of those $15 per hour jobs since computers don’t ask for raises. My guess is that they will reduce their force in half in the next year so they can pay the burger flippers their $15 per hour.
FFA, the good news is that Chik Fil A is expanding and opening new stores, even in blue Washington State where the lines stretch around the building. Remember when the gays thought they could shut Chik Fil A down by boycotting them? The result was that business was never better. They make a better sandwich as well.
Off topic FFA, but did you see the story on Townhall that the woman in charge of the mystery Lois Lerner emails that disappeared is now in charge of Hilliary’s mystery emails? I am sure the worst ones are buried deep into the server that no longer exists.
Hey FFA,
You know what JEB! stands for, right? Just Elect Bernie!
July 2, 2015 at 10:12 am
Agent says:
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FFA, are you “feeling the Bern” yet up there in Wisconsin? Apparently, there are enough Socialists/Communists/OWS folks up there in Madison for him to get a large audience. I am sure he is Planet’s favorite candidate. On a scale of 0-100 with the farthest left being 0, old Bernie registers 0. Hillary may start feeling the heat a bit more and have to resort to out lefting him. Both are sickening to an average voter.
You make no sense Agent. On a scale of 0 to 100 with 0 being as far left as you can go and 100 being as far right as you can go, you give Bernie a score of 0. Next you say that Hillary will have to out-left him. On that same scale of 0 to 100, Hillary can only match Bernie’s score of 0. She can’t out-left it and have a negative score in the 0-100 range. If you are going make sh1t up, at least make it plausible and not so easy to point out your dumb errors.
July 2, 2015 at 12:24 pm
Agent says:
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FFA, it looks like you got out of Illinois just in the nick of time. Headlines are that they are facing a government shutdown kind of like Greece & Puerto Rico since they have spent beyond their means for so long. Laying off 1,400 teachers will be only the start and state employees will be next. Rauner is trying, but the impasse continues on the budget battle. Maybe Obama will be called for another bailout on a state deemed too big to fail.
They all went home with out a budget. Rahm wants a property tax increase which Rauner is dead set against. Toni – Crook County Board President – training ground for OBama – wants a 9% tax on Netflix and other things of the same nature.
Meanwhile, the state reps & senators were arguing all day long about their pay raise. Repubs want to forego it and the Dems want it now.
Teachers Union is in dis belief. Rahm blaming Springfield for decades of mis management – who was in charge down there? The Dems? Madigan? Blago? Quinn? All Dems. Rauner saying solve your own problems.
Rauner is just not going to budge. Balance the budget with out increasing taxes. Hope they have a nice vacation while the working folks sweat it out. When they get back, I am sure they will continue to argue about their pay raise. Rauner may just have to start swinging the ax all by himself.
Personally, after he fixes IL, I can see him in the white house cleaning up Obamas mess. For now, Pay attention to Walker.
FFA, before I forget it, I want to wish you, Jack & Integrity and your families a Happy Fourth of July. Our country is under assault from within and without and we need to give our prayers to our brave servicemen who have kept us free for 239 years. I am a proud veteran and a Patriot. It is sickening what has been happening to our country, but the country is resilient and it will turn around in about 18 months. Hang in there!
July 2, 2015 at 2:52 pm
FFA says:
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You have a great holiday too. I am staying in WI next week, work till noon out of the house and then hit the lake. Need a break from this IL mess. Just cant stand listening to the powers that be care about them selves only.
July 2, 2015 at 3:38 pm
integrity matters says:
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Thanks, Agent! I wish everyone a happy and safe holiday weekend!
July 2, 2015 at 3:42 pm
Agent says:
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I hope you have fun on the lake FFA. I am going to play golf Fri & Sat during this break. Every time I tee it up, I will think of a Progressive Socialist and pretend it is their head. I am sure to get another 20 yards out of my drive.
You have a lot of rage in you Confused like a lot of leftists do. Hillary is bumping along on the 20% range and will have to do some more work to get down to Bernie’s score. I have no doubt that she will as he continues to get some of her true believers. Wouldn’t that be a sight with the two of them on the stage debating and seeing which one would advocate a Marxist state first?
Unfortunately our founding fathers and the citizens who inhabited this nation understood the evils of central government better than our citizens. Also they were much smarter and had integrity ingrained in them all of their lives. Not so much now, and we are paying the price for it. Now you have politicians and judges who feel they can do whatever they want and get away with it, and they are right. Half of our country are dumber than a box of rocks, and many other do not care what is happening, and are just into it for as much as they can get. Too bad!
You are right Lou. The Progressives out there want us to fund everything for them, then tax us to death while they avoid paying their Federal Income tax like Ron. The country was set up as a Republic with Executive, Legislative & Judicial branches so a check and balance system would keep them in line. Of course, the Executive branch wants to dictate everything now and the Judicial is going along for the ride. The country is in bad shape now and a big house cleaning is in order.
That’s the best you can do? I guess I hit a nerve since you have no responsible response.
Are you related to the latest Darwin Award winner that set off the fireworks on his head? I sincerely feel sorry for the family that they have to suffer through such a tragedy.
I’m sure you or someone else will try to blame it on Bush, or Christians since the left never thinks anyone should take responsibility for their actions.
I saw that story on the guy that put fireworks on his head and set it off. A new way to commit suicide. Do you think he could have been a low information voter?
Any bet that he saw someone else do it (at the party or on Youtube) with a firecracker and thought he could do it with whatever explosive he had?
A fine example of “just because other people are doing it, it doesn’t make it right for others to do it”. I guess his bridge was a little too high (and so was he).
I feel very sad for the family after this senseless and preventable act.
Hey Integrity, if you have a minute, go onto Townhall.com and ready the latest on the Obamacare fiasco. Per the NYT, hardly the bastion of Conservatism, the headline is – Looks like Obamacare is causing “massive rate hikes”. A lot of good info is in this article with graphs etc. I am sure Celtica will continue to trumpet it’s success just like her President.
July 6, 2015 at 4:05 pm
intergrity matters says:
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Agent,
I just took a peek at it and, to no surprise, it is exactly what we have been saying the entire time.
Do you see Obama’s statement “If commissioners do their jobs and actively review rates, my expectation is that they’ll come in significantly lower than what’s being requested.”
King Obama has apparently spoken and sent out his edict. It apparently doesn’t matter in his dream world that it is unsustainable at the lower costs. The democratic insurance commissioners will likely fall in line and approve something irresponsible. The private health insurance market will eventually dry up and people will be forced to buy their coverage from the govt.
Just like Obama’s playbook drew it up. It’s no wonder that his plan is exceeding his expectations. he didn’t think it would happen this soon.
July 6, 2015 at 5:35 pm
Agent says:
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Integrity, had they left the Pool business alone with all those sick people and not put them with the healthy applicants, perhaps the rates would have stabilized. Instead, down with the Pools and put everyone together and look what we have. Not enough healthy and too many sick and there goes the loss ratio. Not to worry, Obama will bail them out if the rate increases are not adequate.
Hey Integrity, in today’s Townhall.com, there is a juicy story on the IRS/DOJ Lois Lerner email scandal that will raise the hair on your neck. They are even nastier than everyone first believed. They were actually going to criminally prosecute any Conservative 501C applying for tax free exemption. Lois Lerner, the leather faced Progressive Democrat, Holder and possibly the FBI Director were doing some very bad things behind the scenes. They should all be put in jail, but Obama will give them a pardon. Isn’t that about right?
Jack, a Federal Judge revoked the Washington Redskins trademark today. What would satisfy them, Washington Reidskins? Perhaps the team should move to a better city.
Now because of these activist judges and a President who no regard for the Constitution, he issued changes by executive order to integrate neighborhoods whether we like or not. So if you work hard, play by the rules, get a great house in a nice area, you might have a gang member, or a slob living next to you. Really lousy.
Lou, this is similar to the sub prime mortgage mess that brought on the Great Recession. Progressives in both parties thought it to be a great idea to give everyone a home loan regardless of the ability to pay the mortgage and millions went into default. Fannie & Freddie, along with Wall Street played the credit default swaps and got burned and then we had to bail their butt out.
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You think not getting your cake made is bad? Wait until these guys start showing up at your gay weddings. Party down baby!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3140454/Tourists-run-lives-Tunisian-beach-gunman-carries-attack-outside-hotel-packed-Britons.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline
Hey Jack, gays will not be protected from God’s judgment some day either.
Matthew 19: 4-6. And he answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female and said “For this reason, a man shall leave his Father & Mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh so they are no longer two but one flesh”. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.
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This has been an argument since I was a kid and it is no less valid in current day then it was back then.
You see, you’re not new 102. As much as you think you are, this argument has been had for some time.
As divorce rates get worse, and the country has become more liberal, can I draw that as a conclusion that the more liberal the country gets the worse divorce will get? If so, does that mean gay marriage will harm the divorce rate?
Correlation does not equate to causation, and your comparison is far too simple. This is especially true considering you tried to imply Agent doesn’t read.
Also,
Rather than trying to label a state is bible thumping, why don’t we actually look at some studies on the matter.
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/catholics-continue-to-have-lowest-divorce-rates/
Those who are not so religious make up 40% of the divorce rate. Those who are Catholic (arguably very against gay marriage) make up 28%.
So it would seem, that having a religious affiliation and belief of it’s sanctity, has some degree of an affect in the positive for marriage.
Bob, as a Catholic, can you not be excommunicated for divorcing? I think a special annulment decree is needed, right? For this reason, Catholics have a lower divorce rate, right?
Agent,
With that logic there would be no divorce rate at all.
Annulment is needed, but this does not artificially lower their divorce rate numbers.
Then let’s go a step further:
Diversity. Women and men are different. The debate was ended long ago in psychology, and biology. As much as you “biology deniers” try to state homosexual coupling and heterosexual coupling is the same, and would rather listen to songs about it for professional advice (Same Love)
It is not the same.
Genetic diversity is of course necessary to procreate, but it is also helpful to relationships.
Yes. Some people when married cannot handle the diversity between two different genders.
But marriage is superior between a man and a woman when the diversity lacks adversity. The two are biologically complimentary of each other. Emotionally and physically. It is harmonious and quite beautiful the way the two gender relationships work.
This is not the case of homosexual relationships, and especially of the children which they want to be able to adopt. Two primary genders teaches children how to deal with the differences between the genders.
Now I don’t believe this makes it ok to outlaw gay marriage, but the crux of your argument was that if divorce rates are a problem, that they should be considered.
If we are going to consider divorce rates, there is no doubt that gay marriage will be higher, and there seems to be evidence that those who accept it are more willing to accept divorce in normal marriage. Not to mention homosexual studies on cheating are hard to come by, but many suggest cheating is far more predominant, and cheating is the number one reason behind divorce. This suggests that divorce rates among homosexuals will be dramatically worse than heterosexual, so your argument is very poor in relationship to that. Many studies seem to suggest that the majority of gay relationships are kept alive by allowing some degree of an open relationship.
http://www.examiner.com/article/same-sex-marriage-alert-shocking-statistics-on-gay-and-lesbian-infidelity
Many studies quote the substance abuse of homosexual people to be the fault of society, however, as social acceptance has gone up, depression and substance abuse has not gone down.
We have clearly very real problems faced by gay people, and rather than tell them to look inward, people like you tell them to look outward and blame everyone else, and social stigmas like monogamy for their problems.
I believe that the society due to these people will go to the lowest possible social norm and I have seen it happen.
My old friend groups would often do it. Sally did things worse than Sue. So Sue wasn’t so bad. It kept going down the rabbit hole, until there was no morality, only moral relativism.
That is what will destroy society. Not someone setting religious encouraged standards for morality.
For those who live together without marriage there is no need for divorce. Just a reflection of how immoral the Godless blue states have become.
And how is the attack on tourists in Tunisia related to SSM?
KY, didn’t you know that the ISIS attacks on tourists are because of Global Warming? If you don’t believe me, ask Rosenblatt and he will give you chapter and verse on why terrorists want to kill infidels or anyone else that doesn’t believe as they do. They just killed a bunch of kids for not observing the fasting rules on Ramadan.
Oh my goodness this article. There is this thing called discrimination period. However, if the government is going to look further to pass a law that if you’re gay you cannot be discriminated against, then I want a law that you cannot discriminate against someone driving a silver truck, or white car. Or even further, someone driving a foreign manufactured car. I’d hate to buy a German made car over the weekend, to then come to pass, I get fired on Monday from my job at Ford. Give it a rest already.
It should have been a state issue Baxtor and no business of the Supremes or the Feds.
The US constitution applies to everyone in the US, Agent. States may not pass laws in conflict with the constitution.
What powers not expressly given to the Federal Government shall remain with the states. Read your Constitution.
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Ron
The 14th amendment was a civil rights amendment granting citizenship to slaves that were born in this country or naturalized. It forbade the states to deny any person life, liberty or property without due process of law or to deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The majority, once again, overstepped its bounds by expanding (legislating from the bench). Scalia was most accurate in his dissent.
We are all going to be sorry in the future when the immorality, in the name of liberty, gains momentum down this slippery slope.
For example, look where we are at today in society because of porn. Freedom of speech was the liberty that was allegedly at risk. It was protected, but at what cost?? No one can convince me that the human sex trade is not worse than what it would have otherwise been had porn not been so prevalent.
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Ron,
The 14th amendment was written right after the civil war and its intentions were directed at making the slaves free. Why didn’t women having voting rights at this time if it was meant for all citizens?
Regarding the 2nd amendment and this ruling, I guess that since 36 states have conceal and carry laws that anyone is now allowed to carry their concealed weapons into any of the remaining 14 states and it will be legal, right?
Can you PROVE that homosexuality is not a choice? The ‘science” that is supposedly evidence is flawed and manufactured to meet the desired result.
I never said I want to challenge the 1st amendment. I was merely pointing out the slippery slope that is created. Question, is free speech ever restricted by law? If so, why?
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Ron,
My proof that homosexuality is a choice is the thousands of ex-gays that have chosen to not be gay.
Blacks were given the right to vote in 1870, just after the 14th amendment was passed. Women did not get this right until 1920.
You are correct about free speech being restricted and the general reasons why. So, in hindsight (as if we actually needed hindsight), do you think porn has been harmful to others? Shouldn’t porn have been similarly restricted for the same basis?
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Ron –
Homosexuality is not a liberal/conservative issue. It is a personal sexual preference. So called conservatives that have come out are conservative for other reasons, not their sexual preference.
Bi-sexuality is proof that sexual preference is a choice.
You discount those previously gay as a small percentage and probably weren’t “really” gay. Again, you’ve proven that it was a choice. I would bet that there are more ex-gays in the world than there are other species displaying gay behavior.
Please answer my questions about porn.
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Ron –
Suicide, for any reason, has an underlying element of mental illness attached to it. That mental illness may or may not be significant, by itself. Life circumstances add fuel to the fire.
I am not a psychiatrist or pyschologist so I cannot answer your question with any definitive response. I presume you cannot explain why they do it, either. Suicide is never an answer to any problem.
While I think that appropriate couseling can help many, those that are too conflicted will still resort to suicide. Hence, the mental illness.
I think many, if not most, suicides by gay people are caused by a sense of internal guilt. That guilt could be that they are gay and don’t want to be; a feeling of causing disappointment to friends, family or God; or it could be that they want to be gay but don’t want to be public about their choice.
Regardless the reason for their choice, I agree we have to love them for who they are and what they have chosen as a life style. It does not mean we have to condone and agree with that lifestyle.
For example, if a family member is an alcoholic, we still love and support them. It does not mean that we take them out drinking to say it is okay. (FYI…I am not comparing alcoholism with homosexuality, I am only trying to make an illustration.)
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Ok excuse me, God gave them more than they can handle = Suicide.
I mean this literally, because it’s the only reply I can have to this comment: Then to hell with you! Distance yourself from God.
You don’t get to blame God.
Moving off of that:
Why does anyone choose any bad behavior ever that is linked to suicide? Drugs, alcohol, etc.
You finally asked a good question.
But you ignored the only possibilities. You tried to say they must not have a choice if it leads them to suicide.
I could just as easily argue the opposite. They look down on their own decision, and thus, commit suicide. It is certainly possible. I’m not saying that is the case but merely postulating here on that one since you relied on it.
Whether or not gay behavior is a choice should not change whether or not gay marriage is legal. Your commentary there is mind boggling.
Ron,
You claim to be a Christian and I am not qualified to say you are or are not. However, your latest statements are completely contrary to what the bible says.
First, God does not tempt or “give” people more than they can handle. Do not blame God for what individuals or society does to themselves. God has given us free will to choose the life we want to live. Again, don;t blame God when it goes awry.
Second, I have no control over how others treat homosexuals. I will not treat them any differently, which is to love them who they are as persons. If they ask me to approve of their lifestyle, I will have to respecfully decline.
Third, alcoholism is a disease and not a choice. That is a fact.
It’s a shame that you focused on my example as comparing the two issues (even when I explained it was an illustration) instead of understanding how we should treat the individual. You do not know where my heart was when I made the statement. I forgive you for judging me wrongly.
integrity matters,
Just because I am willing to question and challenge God does not mean I do not believe. He gave me a mind and free will to think. I choose to take advantage of those gifts. If you want to be a blind sheep, that is your choice.
Nobody KNOWS what God does, doesn’t do, want or expect. Those who profess to know are overly arrogant,in my opinion.
If someone goes through something difficult in their life,a common expression from Christians is, “God does not give us more than we can handle”. If that is true, then we can assume if someone does not make it through, then he gave that person too much.
I am not sure if either, neither or both of those are true, but do you understand the logic?
Alcoholism is a self-imposed disease, and should not be more tolerated and/or accepted by society than homosexuality. In my opinion, God does not make people alcoholics, they bring that upon themselves by making poor choices.
You said, “I will not treat them any differently, which is to love them who they are as persons. If they ask me to approve of their lifestyle, I will have to respectfully decline.” It is this thinking that is the problem. The fact that you think they should not be allowed to be treated under the law the same as male-female couples is proof that are treating them differently. They are not asking you, integrity matters, to accept their lifestyle. They just want to have the exact same rights and privileges as male-female married couples,in the eyes of the law.
Regarding your slippery slope argument, let’s assume the SCOTUS decided against gay marriage and left it to the states. Could a state ban any other type of marriage such as 2 African-Americans, interracial, second marriages? Where would it stop? See, the slippery slope card can be played by both sides of every decision.
Ron –
I pray that God opens your (and others) heart and mind to understand the truth.
Asking God questions to help you understand is healthy and appropriate. Getting angry at God is also understandable. But to question and challenge God, in the context that I am interpreting from your comment, is arrogant. Who are you (or any of us) to challenge God and why He allows things to happen. Were you there when He created the universe?
He sees and knows the whole picture, you don’t.
The only thing we know is what He has told us, in His Holy word, the bible. Unfortunately, people like yourself don;t want to believe it because you have believed the lies that “it was written by man and he is flawed”.
If you believe that there is an all knowing, all powerful, omnipotent and omniscient God, why can’t you believe that he could have His Holy word written down EXACTLY the way He wanted. There is even a curse in the bible warning anyone that desires to change it.
If you don’t believe that is possible, than you are saying God has limitations.
You said, ” If someone goes through something difficult in their life,a common expression from Christians is, “God does not give us more than we can handle”. If that is true, then we can assume if someone does not make it through, then he gave that person too much.”
Wow!! So you are removing the responsibility from the individual committing suicide (or making any number of other poor choices in other circumstances) to make a better decision or seek help/guidance (etc), and blaming God. You can make this same excuse for any other poor decision people make because they couldn’t handle the circumstance.
With that logic, it’s God’s fault that some guy kills his wife and kids because she wants to leave him. He was going through something difficult in his life. It’s not his fault.
You know, Ron, that is the problem with the world today. Nobody wants God in their life , so God gives them that freedom. Then, when something goes wrong, they blame God and say “where were you?” or “if there was a God, He wouldn’t allow that to happen”. No one wants to take responsibility for their actions.
To answer your question, no, I do not understand your logic.
You said, “In my opinion, God does not make people alcoholics, they bring that upon themselves by making poor choices”. God does not make people homosexuals, either. If He did, He would be creating something that is directly contrary to what He says us not to do. Additionally, based on your statement, I guess you think homosexuals deserve to get HIV/AIDS.
There would be no STD’s in this world if everyone followed God’s direction to be not have sex until you are married and to be monogomous. These were not commandments, either, but instructions in the bible. I would say that was true or did man make that one up, too.
With regards to your comment about treating homosexuals differently and the law, please re-read my response. I said nothing about treating them differently under the law. I said ” If they ask me to approve of their lifestyle, I will have to respecfully decline.”
There is no law that will ever be passed that will force me to approve of their or anyone else’s lifestyle.
With regards to the laws passed, I’ve said in other posts to make laws that deal with tangible issues (taxes, life decisions, etc). I have no problem with that. My problem is that they are defining marriage as something other than what it was naturally intended to be. By doing so, and the reasons they justified it, it will eventually open Pandora’s box to include other scenarios.
You’re slippery slope argument doesn’t hold water. Want proof? No one has brought them up and the interracial issues have already been settled.
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My summation:
Directly from the Constitution:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
This is a purely legal issue. Keep religion out of it. Nobody is saying you, your religion, nor any other citizen cannot be personally against gay marriage, but the law must recognize it as valid. That is what our Founding Fathers would have wanted.
Ron –
You’re responses are exactly what I mean about society and no one believes in absolute truth. Do you believe there is absolute truth?
People, yourself included, are using the bible as a guideline. Picking and choosing what works for their own personal life and belief system. Using that logic, why isn’t murder or stealing up for interpretation? I know, because they are specific commandments, which you choose to believe is true.
God in not a god of confusion. He does not tell us one thing or provide direction (commandment or otherwise) and then purposely do something else to make us fail. How ridiculous would that be?
You said, “Nobody KNOWS the truth until Judgement Day, period. That is why it is called belief and faith.”
Jesus said, “I am the way, the TRUTH and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
I know the TRUTH. That is why I believe and have faith.
Jesus was not just a man. He was also God incarnate. He was both fully human and fully God.
Regarding God’s will, Paul in his first letter to the Thessalonians (4:3-5) wrote “It is God’s will that you should be sanctified; that you should avoid sexual immmorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not to passionate lust like pagans, who do not know God”
Louie in another post brought up Leviticus. In Chapter 18 verse 22, it says, “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.”
That seems pretty clear to me.
Regarding “too much to handle”, you are missing the point. You are blaming God when someone, by their on free will, commits suicide. You are saying “God gave them too much to handle”. Their individual situation may have been self-inflicted, again by their own free will choices. Even if it was not self inflicted, they still made the choice to end their life. There was another option that could have gotten them through the pain/situation.
You said “Nobody is asking you to accept or approve anything. Telling 2 consenting adults they cannot have the same legal rights as 2 other consenting adults is wrong.” Why shouldn’t 3 or 4 or 12 consenting adults have the same legal rights as 2 consenting adults?
Finally, mans laws are written by man and are flawed. This is your argument to not believe everything in the bible. Gods laws and direction are logical and wise. Mans laws will never have or contain the wisdom that God’s laws have.
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Ron –
Our founding fathers wanted this country to have freedon OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. It was based on the tyranny they saw with the Church of England over Britain. Different topic, let’s not go down that road.
My statements are not contradictory. I know the TRUTH (Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins, was resurrected and will come again), which is why I BELIEVE the bible is absolute truth, and I have FAITH that I will live eternally in heaven because of all that.
If you say you have belief and faith, but but do not profess to KNOW, I call that doubt and seems contradictory to having FAITH. How can you have belief and faith in something that you doubt and not know it is true?
Thank you for respecting my your position from a religious standpoint. I do not want to live in a theocracy. I’ve said before, my opposition to this decision is not strictly based on my religious belief, but on the eventual effects on society as a whole and in the future.
Regarding the polygamy question, complex legal issues regarding rights, benefits, and separation can all be figured out. Assuming they can, I guess you would be okay with it?
Regarding the suicide discussion, please stay on topic, which was that you were blaming God for their decision. I was pointing out it was still their decision and God is not to blame.
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Mary,
My rights as a Christian have not been violated by this decision. My larger issues, as you call them, are the slippery slope SCOTUS just created.
Using all the reasons why gay marriage should be allowed (i.e. they should be allowed to love and marry whomever they want, they want the same rights as heterosexual couples, they were born that way/that’s their sexual orientation), everything else should be allowed…polygamy, pedophilia, beastiality, incest, etc. After all, all the people that have an orientation towards those behaviors were born that way, too, and are simply doing it out of love.
True Christians view homosexuality as being a sin the same as their own sin (adultery, lust, lying, etc). EVERYONE is a sinner. The difference is that Jesus said to go and sin no more. He does not want us to perpetuate the sin. True Christians realize they make mistakes and try to not continue to live in sin. It is hard for everyone not to sin. No one should condone and celebrate sin. True Christians hate the sin but love the sinner.
The problem with society is that no one wants to admit that homosexuality is a sin. I am not condemning anyone for this behavior, I am only calling it for what it is.
Should we celebrate adulterers??? How about thieves???
As a society, we have drawn lines and have determined that one type of sin is worse than the other. In God’s eyes, sin is sin and there is no place in His Kingdom for it. That is why He sent His son, Jesus, to be the sacrifice for our sins. We only need to ask His forgiveness and believe that He died on the cross for us and was resurrected. His sacrifice was a gift. We only need to accept that gift.
integrity matters,
3 words, two consenting adults. There, I just destroyed your argument. Now you may sleep better.
Do you have a non-religious objection to gay marriage. We do not live in a theocracy. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.
You said,”The difference is that Jesus said to go and sin no more.” Does that mean we are only allowed to sin once?
Homosexuality is not one of God’s Commandments not one of the 7 deadly sins.
How can you equate 2 consenting adults committing love to each other to adultery and thievery? Both of those are against God’s Commandments and harm other people directly.
How do you KNOW God’s will? A book physically written by man, who is flawed? Nobody KNOWS God’s will on Earth. Let’s try to treat each other with respect and understanding. We are not to judge, it is way above any of our pay grades.
If all gay people go to Hell or are banned from Heaven, so be it. I personally do not believe that, but it is your right to do so.
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Ron-
Thanks, I sleep just fine. Nice try on your attempt to destroy my argument.
If your answer, “two consenting adults”, is supposed to negate the other areas of sexual orientation, then you are discriminating against those people.
Certainly polygamy is likely to be entered into by consenting adults. Who are you, or the courts, to say it should only be two? Pedophilia – the left is more than willing to hand out condoms and birth control and allow underage abortions without the parents knowing about it. If a thirteen year old can make those decisions, who are you to say they can’t have sex with an adult? Afger all, they only love the person.
Stop being a hypocrite, Ron, or is that where you draw your morality line?
These ARE my non-religious reasons on why I object to gay marriage.
If a gay couple wants the same rights (pertaining to property, life decisions, tax implications, etc), then pass laws addressing those issues.
You said/asked “,”The difference is that Jesus said to go and sin no more.” Does that mean we are only allowed to sin once?” Jesus knows that we cannot/will not sin only once because we are human. Trying not to sin is a matter of the heart. We make mistakes and succumb to temptation. Purposeful disobedience for selfish gain is rebellion. God wants us to live righteouslly because it is for our benefit, not His.
You said “Homosexuality is not one of God’s Commandments not one of the 7 deadly sins.” So I guess in your mind that everything else is okay? Again, pedophilia should be okay with you because it doesn’t make those lists.
You said “How can you equate 2 consenting adults committing love to each other to adultery and thievery? Both of those are against God’s Commandments and harm other people directly.” Because they are doing it with love as the basis. Adulterers who love each other but have bad marriages shouldn’t be blamed if you follow the love logic.
Thieves love money/things. Aren’t you denying their right to pursue happiness?
Guess what, homosexuality harms people directly, too!
Regarding God’s will, since I am human, I cannot possibly know the entiriety of GOd’s will. However, I do believe that God, who created the entire universe and everything that is in it, has the ability to inspire dozens of men over hundreds of years to write down EXACTLY what He (God) wants to say and how He would like us to live our lives AND without ambiguity.
FYI, there is NOTHING in the bible that has been historically disproven. In fact, the bible continues to be proven true as time goes on.
As I said before, I am not condemning (judging) anyone. It is not my job. I respect what other people want to believe. Why is it that society is not expected to respect what Christians believe?
I believe that there is an absolute truth. God is that absolute truth. Society can believe whatever it wants to believe, but it will never change the absolute truth.
Finally, there are going to be many sinners (homosexuals, liars, adulterers, thieves, murderers, etc) that will be forgiven and accepted into heaven. There will also be many so-called “Christians” that will not be accepted into heaven because they did not truly believe in Christ and ask for forgiveness of their sins. They think by being a “good person”, they will get into heaven.
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Ron,
You said, “Where you,me or anyone draws our individual line of morality is irrelevant. The law is not to dictate morals because we each have our own line. They are to protect their citizens from actual harm from each other. Where does it state in the Constitution that the government is to legislate morality?”
Like it or not, believe it or not, our laws were originally based on the bible. Many early laws made adultery and sodomy a crime. Somewhere along the way, someone siad the same thing as you “morality is irrelevant” and look at society today. Using your argument, where does it state in the Constitution that the government is suppose to legislate healthcare or the myriad of other intrusions that it does?
The left wants to pick and choose what works for them in the Constitution just like people choose what they want to follow in the bible. If they don’t like it, change it. If it feels good, do it.
Truth does not change.
For the record, I am against all of the things I mentioned before. Can you at least admit that the decision is a slippery slope because some, if not all, of these other forms of debauchery will likely come into play.
Here is a link identifying some of the biblical facts proven through history.
http://www.faithfacts.org/search-for-truth/maps/archaeological-and-external-evidence
You never answered my question why society should not be expected to respect what Christians believe, but you expect us to respect the crap that society believes in.
For me, my faith and my God and His word, is a fact.
All of the other religions of the world (excl atheism)are “works based” religions meaning you have to do something or be a good person to enter heaven. Christianity is the only one that requires self reflection and belief that you need a savior to forgive you of your sins. There is nothing any individual can do to erase the sin in their entire life. No amount of good performed by that individual will overcome it.
That is a FACT!
Integrity,
You sir, whether you are Catholic or not, are a true believer.
Your abilities to remain calm are better than my own, and your points here while challenged by modern society are good ones.
You are a balance of God’s love and God’s expectations, and I like it. Good posts.
Thanks, Bob. To God be the glory. I am trying to be gracious as best as possible. Unfortunately, I’ve lost my temper with Celtica and should not have responded to her the way I did.
Integrity, all you need to know is found in Matthew 19: 4-6. It can’t be spelled out any clearer that marriage is between one man and one woman.
Matthew 19: 4-6 does not exist in any of my religious doctrines. Maybe we shouldn’t try to apply that to every single citizen of the United States either?
Dear I’m Jewish,
In case you didn’t know, it is in your Torah and part of the Pentateuch.
When God created Eve for Adam in Genesis 2, verse 24 says “That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.”
God didn’t create a husband for Adam. He created a wife. Don’t you think he would have created a husband for him if God thought that was the best thing to do?
Maybe every citizen should know what God intended to be the best mate. Do we know better than God?
Dear integrity matters, I stand by my original statement that Matthew 19:4-6 does not exist in any of my religious texts. I have no idea how you can try to argue otherwise.
I bring up my faith for one reason. Just because one believes in the teachings of the Old Testament does not mean they must be against same-sex marriage.
Conservative Jewish stance: In June 2012 the Committee of Jewish Law and Standards, voted 13-0 with one abstention to formally approve gay marriage ceremonies.
Reform Jewish Movement: they have called for civil same-sex marriage for many years.
Reconstructionist Jewish Movement: they have expressed support for the full inclusion of gay men and lesbians in all aspects of Jewish life.
You can believe in God and in the teachings of the Old Testament and support gay marriage. Even those Jews who identify as Conservative are on board with gay marriage.
Thanks for the info, I’m Jewish.
There have been many Christian denominations that have also approved gay marriage. That does not mean that it is okay with God.
If our respective faiths decided that it is okay to murder someone, should we just accept it because that is what the will of the people is? (Illustration only…I am not trying to equate homosexuality with murder)
Using one of Ron’s comments, unless God tell me Himself that homosexuality is an okay lifestyle, I will choose to believe what He told us in the bible.
Fair enough. You definitely make some valid points.
You asked ‘If our respective faiths decided that it is okay to murder someone, should we just accept it’
Murder whom exactly? Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or someone like that? In that case, yes, I would accept murder since killing one life will save countless innocent lives.
If that someone is my next door neighbor who steals my newspaper every morning or if it is a generic you-can-murder-anyone-you-want, then no, murder is bad.
The devil is in the details as they say.
I am going to get blasted for opening this can of worms…
You asked “murder whom exactly”?
Unborn children?
You see, society has a way to “excuse” or “reason” why something should be acceptable. The slippery slope.
Case rested
Ron, do you believe a business should be sued because they do not want to provide services for a gay wedding? I have declined to do business with a prospect more than once in my career because I felt they would be a difficult client. Are you saying you believe people should be forced to do business with everyone or be threatened with a lawsuit?
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Ron,
There is a difference between responding with love and forgiveness and not condoning and supporting behavior that is against your beliefs.
I agree that if an adulterer walks in and says, I want to send flowers to my mistress, they should deny to serve them. The problem is, people do not do that because they know it is morally wrong.
The gay community does not think homosexuality is morally wrong.
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Ron
God has already spoken on the subject. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and said a man should not lie with another man.
He made man and woman to be one. Man and man cannot procreate naturally. Neither can woman and woman.
I am not seeking this country to be a theocracy.
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Ron,
I said it before, I am not against gay marriage solely based on religious beliefs.
MArk this date down that I predicted the future. Marriage laws will be changed to at least include polygamy in the future, because of this decision.
Decriminalization against pedophilia will take place when the child is a willing participant. The age of “understanding” will likely be reduced to accomodate this.
I am not against civil union’s. That would at least draw the lines between “socially acceptable” behavior and those that are not.
integrity matters,
I will mark down the date. Can you provide a timeline, so in the event these things do not happen, we can hold you to account for false predictions?
Ron –
My magic eight ball says “not likely”.
Based on the past history, prayer was taken out of the schools in the 1960’s and it took 65 years to have society deteriorate to this level. Since people don’t care about anything that doesn’t affect them personally, my best gues is that we will see a change in the polygamy law within 15-25 years and the age of consent to have sex with an adult within 25-35 years.
I sincerely hope that you can call me out on those predications. I’ll consider it a win for mankind!
Hey Jewish, I hate to tell you this, but the book of Matthew is in the new testament of the Bible, not the Old Testament. Matthew was a disciple of Jesus. It is not surprising that the book is not in your religious texts of Jewish teachings. After all, the Jews rejected Jesus and had him crucified for his teachings. They expected their Messiah to be a military guy and come in and kick the Romans out and he just didn’t measure up to their expectations.
Agent, your lack of reading comprehension is scary. Why do you hate to tell me Matthew isn’t in the Old Testament? I already said that same thing twice. I know it is not in there. I said so twice before you chimed in. That has been my point since I made my first post.
Jesus also said “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.”–Mark 12:30. He welcomed EVERYONE, regardless of profession or social status. I have to think that if Jesus were on earth today, He would also welcome homosexuals.
There are so many parts of the Bible which contradict other parts, and it’s important to remember that a lot of it was written in the context of its time. Look at all the passages concerning slavery and how to treat women: We can all (hopefully) agree that those are not right today.
I’m a heterosexual Christian. I teach my children that God made EVERYBODY and didn’t make “mistakes.” I can’t believe God would create a bunch of people just to condemn them to Hell.
Much of the central message of the Bible is hope, salvation, forgiveness, grace, and love. THAT’S what we should be reinforcing. It’s those who take certain passages literally that are turning so many away from the Church, when instead we should be welcoming all. Life is way too short as it is.
Ron–sorry, my previous post was not directed at you but should have been its own subject.
Louie,
Yes, Jesus welcomes everyone. We are to love everyone, even our enemies. But, Jesus did not give us permission to sin. In fact, He told the prostitute that was about to be stoned to “go and sin no more”. He also convicted the Samaritan woman (in her heart) at the well that her present relationship was not appropriate. He offered love and forgiveness.
Also, the bible does not contradict itself. If you think it does, then you need to discuss your concerns with someone that can assist with the interpretation. Some of the things in the bible are contextual with the times that they applied to (I do not know what verses you are referring to regrding treating women, because there are none that I am aware of that are meant to harm or disrespect them). However, God’s principles and what he wants for our lives are timeless, as is His wisdom.
I AGREE that God does not make mistakes, which is why the gay and transgender arguments that they were “born” this way, is an excuse to avoid that it is actually a choice.
We are all “born” with original sin. That original sin will “bend” each of us in a certain direction in which we are vulnerable to temptation.
Louie, the message of the bible is all the things you mentioned, that is the GOOD NEWS!. But there is a downside if people don’t believe that sin is real. There are consequences. This is like telling your children about all the good and fun things in life and not warning them about the danger to avoid.
There was a reason why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Do you really think God thinks homosexual behavior is okay? If He does, I guess He needs to apologize to them.
Check out the book of Leviticus for rules on how to treat women during their menstrual cycle. It speaks to the times when it was written. I doubt you follow those rules now, do you? There are several instances like this.
As Ron stated, the Bible was written by MAN. As Christians, we believe it was divinely inspired, but it was also interpreted BY MAN. The original text has been translated many times over the years. There were several books that never made it into the Bible.
A lot of the Bible was written to try and explain things that people did not understand in those times. For instance: I’m not 100% positive but I think I can say with a reasonable amount of certainty that man did not originate from dust and women were not made from his rib. I’m also reasonably certain that there was not a global flood which destroyed 99.9999% of life on earth.
However, the overall message of salvation, grace, love, hope and forgiveness CONTINUES to be found throughout the Bible, even in those sections which may not be scientifically or historically accurate. You find these messages in a lot of other religions as well, believe it or not.
Do gay people CHOOSE to be that way, or were they born that way? Did you CHOOSE to be hetero, or were you just born that way?
Questioning certain things in the Bible isn’t a bad thing; if anything it makes us stronger. The God I believe in is an all powerful force which created ALL living things and loves all. Some things we are meant to understand, and some we never will.
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Louie,
Yes, Louie, Leviticus explained how personal hygeine should be handled. Of course, our hygeine has gotten better, so what is your point?
If you are a Christian, how can you not believe that God can accomplish anything through anybody? You are believing the secular theory that the bible is not completely true. There are reasons why books were left out…because those that were inspired by God did not believe them to be 100% accurate.
Man’s interpretation are based on the best translations available for the various original Hebrew and Greek. In some instances, we have more words to describe the intent. Some are better than others but they are relatively synonomous.
Regarding man’s origin, I guess you believe we came from some amoeba that crawled out of the ocean and somehow evolved into a miraculous living and breathing and thinking and creating creature.
Don’t believe in the flood??? Explain how various cultures around the globe have their own stories about the flood. They have been passing those stories down for thousands of years before the internet, Skippy.
You can pick and choose whatever you like out of the bible and ignore anything you don’t like if it makes you feel guilty or if you just can’t believe it. It’s your choice, but it doesn’t change the truth.
I was born a man and designed to be with a woman, just as God intended. “Science” created the word heterosexual.
God definitely loves all of his creation. But, He is also a God that believes in justice. He’s shown His love by providing a way for us to be saved.
Celtica –
There is a reason why this country has gone to hell in a hand basket and it is because of decisions like this by the Supreme Court and left wing blind sheep like you.
The separation of church and state is not in the Constitution and the doctrine has been incorrectly manipulated and interpreted. But you only believe what you have been told by the media so I don’t expect you to understand or think for yourself.
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HAHAHA, Celtica. Your ignorance makes me laugh, and honestly, I feel sorry for you. If you only knew what the Christian life really means, and I pray that someday you do. Salvation is available to you.
The only minor difference between the bible and koran is that Christians don’t behead those that don’t believe in or convert to Christianity. I guess its a good thing that Christians have better morals when it comes to death.
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Ron – Check your history. The Crusades took place as a response because the muslims were slaughtering Christians and others that would not convert to Islam.
Without a doubt, the Christians at that time went overboard and it was wrong. Unfortunately, “remember the Crusades” becomes a mantra of anyone who wants to bash Christians, even though they took place almost 1000 years ago. I think the Christians have done a lot better since then.
“Don’t forget the Crusades, the Inquisition and the slaughter of Native Americans. We Christians do not have a very good record either.”
As integrity already mentioned, the crusades was the attempt of Christians to get their land back from the Muslims who conquered it. This was more about land than it was religion.
The comparison would be Russia destroying and taking Crimea, and then Ukraine comes in and says “Hey, that’s our land” and fights for it. Ukraine would be fighting for their land and it would not mark aggressive behavior.
The “slaughter” of Native Americans was not a Christian endeavor.
The Inquisition was not signed off on by Christianity, it was a move on governments to oppress, as they have always done. The inquisition was against Christian “heresy”, by the Government. It was against Christians not for them.
Anyone who looks into history can see that if anything, there has been a constant bias in either persecuting, labeling, or otherwise blaming Christianity for just about everything while the Muslims always get off the hook. You yourself focus more on Christian apologetics than you do the issues with Muslim faith.
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Integrity, the flood gates have opened based on the Supreme Court ruling. Today’s GOP USA reports a guy in Montana wants to marry his second wife now legally or he will sue. Montana’s laws forbid polygamy and he has already been excommunicated from the Mormon church. My guess is that he will win given how it is going now and Montana’s law will be overturned. 7 children between them. Hmm! I wonder how he handles two wives.
Mary, this goes way beyond same sex marriage. I should be able to do business with whom I see fit, just like any consumer has the right to buy from whatever business they choose. Our civil liberties as U.S. Americans are at stake. If you want gay marriage, fine, but dont tell me how I can conduct my business. This just opened up a whole can of worms.
However, anti-discrimination laws do protect them
What was done by the Supreme Court is disastrous for our nation. It means we have lost the ability to have laws that we want. It eviscerates the Constitution. After all the our founding document is a set of rules set down by the people on how we will be governed. That has gone out the window by 5 judges that at once arrogant and very stupid. What a sad day.
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PFFFTTTT! That noise is similar to the air released from Celtica’s mouth when she tries to say something intelligent. Nothing but hot air.
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Celtica,
You are right. I am sorry. Please forgive me.
I should not be using the “eye for an eye” response.
Integrity, no worries.
No offense taken.
Thank you, Celtica.
Actually, he shows very Christian behavior, the only point of your comment here was to derail him and usurp his character.
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As a non-Christian, I am confused. Please take my questions at face value – they are not meant to be argumentative, just looking for clarification.
1) One of the posts states that Christianity is a eligion of faith, not works, and that it doesn’t matter if you sin as long as you accept jesus. If that is true, then what is all the fuss about? Do whatever you want, sin or not, and you can get to heaven anyway.
2) Regardless of the answer to my first question, as a non-Christian I do not see gay marriage as a sin. If this is a country of religious freedom, then why can I not marry someone of the same gender if I so choose? Allowing me to marry whatever consenting adult I choose does not force those who believe it is a sin to also marry someone of the same gender.
Confused-
1. You do have to repent of your sin.
2. If we see it as a sin then we shouldn’t have to participate in anything associated with it. Making your wedding cake for example. Let’s take lying for example or maybe insurance fraud given the forum. I thinking lying is a sin, so don’t come to my agency and sit across the table expecting me to participate in you lying on your insurance application. Got it. Go commit fraud somewhere else.
Jack, the difference is that Christians are not perfect, just forgiven. There has been only one recorded perfect man who has ever walked the earth. He was crucified and died for our sins. I wonder how many politicians have asked forgiveness for lying to the American people about everything they have done. Non believers take lying to an art form. They don’t know right from wrong. It really is sad to see. An Atheist has nothing to look forward to after death.
An Atheist has nothing to look forward to after death – Except eternal damnation.
Integrity, I would like to share a story with you on the wages of sin. It is kind of a joke, but serious as well.
A man was obsessed with playing golf all the time. He neglected his wife, kids, business until he lost his marriage, business and was estranged from his kids. One day, he was out playing golf and keeled over and died. Because of his sins, he went down and Satan met him at the gates of hell. When they opened the gate, he gazed out at a beautiful golf course which matched up with Augusta National. Satan told him that he could play for eternity. He would have the finest clubs, clothes, golf cart etc. He asked Satan what the catch was since hell is not supposed to be a nice place to end up. Satan said, the catch is that you don’t get any golf balls to play with. Now, that is “hell” for an avid golfer.
That’s why I do the best I can to be a good person in this life. I do that because it’s the right thing to do, not because I hope my actions will allow me to get into heaven when I die. I may not believe in a higher power or heaven and hell, but I do believe in the morals and ethics that religion teaches.
Agent – good one. I’ve got one for you (you may have heard it).
An insurance agent dies and meets St. Peter at the Pearly gates. Peter advises that they are giving people the ability to spend 1 day in both heaven and hell, and they can decide where they want to spend eternity.
He sends the man into hell and when he gets there, it is a big party with all his old friends. He has a blast. The next day in heaven, it is very beautiful and serene and peaceful.
Afterwards, St. Peter asks him where he wants to spend eternity. The insurance agent says he really enjoyed heaven, but he had a lot more fun in hell. So St. Peter sends him to hell.
When the insurance agent gets there, the doors open and it is pain and torture and suffering. He asks Satan, “What happened to my friends and the party?”
Satan replies, “yesterday, you were a prospect,today your a customer.”
Dear confused non-christian,
Thanks for your post. I will try to answer your questions as best as possible. Please understand that much of what I give you has significantly more information and explanation that is needed behind it. There is not enough space in this blog to anser with the justification it deserves.
First question – you said/asked “Christianity is a eligion of faith, not works, and that it doesn’t matter if you sin as long as you accept jesus. If that is true, then what is all the fuss about? Do whatever you want, sin or not, and you can get to heaven anyway.
God wants to spend eternity with each of his creation. However, heaven is a pure place. Our sin separates us from God, prohibiting our ability to spend eternity with Him. In order to cleanse us of our sin, God sent His son Jesus to be the sacrifice for all of mankinds sins. Jesus willingly died on the cross for our sins, even though he was an innocent man. Three days after his death, he rose again to prove that he conquered death. This action was a gift to all mankind.
We, have to believe in our heart, that Jesus was the son of God and that He actually died and rose again. We must acknowledge that we have sinned and need forgiveness. Our hearts must be sincere when we do this because God knows our hearts. He will not be mocked and knows when we are pretending. Jesus’ death is not a license to sin, but should be recognized as the sacrifice He made. When we truly understand in our heart what He endured, just so that we can have eternal life with Him and God, it is overwhelming. It is life changing to the point that you no longer want to live in or with the sin that is in your life. It is a spiritual cancer that eats away at you. Follow Jesus changes that feeling because you know, and believe, that it is all true.
If you want to find out more, i sincerely pray that you seek a church that is biblically based to guide and explain and answer all the questions that follow.
Second question –
Unfortunately, the liberal society in which we live in has been lying to everyone for years in numerous areas. Many who do not believe in any God, thinks it doesn’t matter what we do because when we die, there is nothing that will be held against us for eternity (i.e. no hell to suffer in). Unfortunately for them, there is an eternity and we will either exist in it in heaven with God (eternal life) or in hell (eternal death).
What people don’t realize (or want to accept) is that this world is ruled by Satan, the father of lies. Satan’s sole purpose is to separate us from God. The evil that exists in this world is perpetuated by him, through others. Would you agree that there is evil in this world?
As explained earlier, heaven is pure. Any sin is a blemish. In God’s eyes, all sin is equal because it is still sin. We (man) have put weights on the various things do wrong. Adultery is worse than lying; stealing is worse than adultery; murder is worse than stealing. They are all blemishes that separate us from God. Homosexuality is considered an abomination to God and is a sin in His eyes. He feels the same way about adultery or any other sin (sexual or otherwise). God still loves us but He knows that is not what is right for our lives, no matter how innocent or pleasurable it may seem.
The reason this decision is a problem is become it further erodes the morality of our society. Society does not think homosexuality is immoral and they are lying. God says it is and I choose to believe the creator of the universe.
I am not condemning anyone for being gay because I am a sinner, too. We all need forgiveness for something, usually multiple things.
Your statement that consenting adults do not force others who believe it is a sin to marry someone of the same gender is true, however, they are trying to convince us that it is acceptable behavior and we should celebrate and accept it. That is forcing Christians to to believe it is okay.
Christians cannot force atheists to believe there is a God, why should we be forced to believe that homosexuality is okay? There is a level of intolerance being displayed from both sides.
I hope this helps.
Good testimony Integrity. I hope it makes an impression on some on this blog. We live in such a godless society now, but many people seek answers to the meaning of life and what comes afterward.
Thanks, Agent.
Integrity, have you ever wondered why we have literally hundreds of denominations of churches in this country and around the world preaching their version of Christianity and interpreting the Bible their own way? It is pretty mind boggling. In the old Testament, it is filled with stories of how the Children of Israel disobeyed God and his teachings and suffered for it with captivity and persecution. They just couldn’t get it right for long and worshipped false idols etc. I like the New Testament teachings about the Good News and Jesus the savior of all mankind. It is pretty clear that the only way to salvation is to trust Jesus,and ask forgiveness for your sins. You cannot do good deeds and be a good man and make it to heaven like Rosenblatt thinks he can do. The trust still has to be there.
Sigh. You exhaust me, Agent.
I wrote I do good ***not because I hope my actions will allow me to get into heaven***
I also wrote ***I may not believe in…heaven and hell***
You wrote “You cannot do good deeds and be a good man and make it to heaven like Rosenblatt thinks he can do.”
I do not think that Agent.
I clearly said I do good because I feel it is the right thing to do, NOT because it may allow me to enter heaven.
Got it??
I do good because it is the right thing to do. I do not act that way with the hope of making it to some after-death place which I do not believe exists.
Rosenblatt, Sigh, you exhaust me. Now that you have pronounced yourself as an Atheist, I understand you better. There is nothing wrong with being a good man and doing good deeds in your life. Tell me, do you think the soul is eternal? Do you believe as General Patton did in re-incarnation and the soul keeps coming back as someone else down through the ages or do you think the soul just goes away after death? If you do, that must be a sad existence.
I exhaust you? How? By always answering your questions and pointing out when you ascribe things to me that I never said (like you saying I do good only to get to heaven, which I clearly did not say)? Anyway…
“Tell me, do you think the soul is eternal?” Wrong question. I don’t believe there is a soul, so it’s a moot question if I think it’s eternal or not.
“Do you believe as General Patton did in re-incarnation…” Again. I do not believe there is a soul, so this is a moot question.
“Do you think the soul just goes away after death?” Again – no soul = moot question.
I have answered all your questions. Please answer mine:
Do you agree I said and believe that I do good just because it is the right thing to do, and NOT because I hope it will allow me to make it to some after-death place which I do not believe exists anyway?
Agent –
You probably already know this, but the Old and New Testaments go hand in hand with each other. The Old Testament explains the Jewish History and God’s interaction with them through history, leading up to and foretelling the prophecy of the coming messiah, Jesus. God gave us the Ten Commandments to follow, His law. Jesus, was the only person to fulfill those laws.
There are over 100 prophecies in the Old Testament describing who the Messiah was going to be. Jesus is the only person that fulfilled all those prophecies.
You mention how the children of Israel disobeyed God and couldn’t get it right for long. I am ashamed to say, but have to admit, that we CHristians are doing the same thing. We want to do things our way, not Gods way, because the “times and society” changes. God’s truths never change.
This is why we (and the world) needs a savior. Thankfully, God is gracious and merciful.
Rosenblatt –
You said “Do you agree I said and believe that I do good just because it is the right thing to do, and NOT because I hope it will allow me to make it to some after-death place which I do not believe exists anyway?”
I believe you do good because you think it is the right thing to do.
I have to ask, why do you THINK it is “the right thing to do”? Is it your own moral compass or someone else’s that taught you?
If there is no purpose to how we live our life (eternally speaking), what’s the point of doing good? Shouldn’t society just be selfish…survival of the fittest?
Thanks, IM. Still hope Agent will answer my question to ensure he properly comprehended what I said.
Q: why do you THINK it is “the right thing to do”? Is it your own moral compass or someone else’s that taught you?
A: Short answer: both. It’s a combination of what was taught to me in school (public and religious), what society has deemed ethical – or at least moral – actions to be, what my parents taught me, what I think is “right” based on my gut, and how I would hope someone else would handle the same situation if our roles were reversed.
Q: If there is no purpose to how we live our life (eternally speaking), what’s the point of doing good? Shouldn’t society just be selfish…survival of the fittest?
A: I would argue already live in a selfish society right now. That said, we can have both – people who treat others with respect that are also the fittest (Darwin-style). They are not mutually exclusive ideas/ideals. Who knows, being able to adapt and survive could be directly tied into society being able to live together in peace and harmony.
Wouldn’t that be best — a society of people who care for others, who are all trying to make the world a better place for future iterations of our species?
Thanks for your answers, Rosenblatt.
Indeed, a society that cares for each other would be ideal. But, we live in a selfish society, as you stated. The degrees of selfishness vary similar to the degrees of depravity.
I appreciate your honesty that part of your ethics and morality were religious based.
I believe we were all created with an inner sense of morality, to know right from wrong. This separates us from animals. We have the ability to reason and not react on instinct. But, even with that ability, there is still an absolute truth that we are all subject to.
This all comes from God. The further we move away from absolute truth, the more selfish we become and self centered on “what am I entitled to”?
Integrity, of course I knew that we had an Old Testament and New Testament and the Old Testament was basically a history lesson and prophesy foretelling the coming Messiah. Then, when they got the real Messiah, they didn’t believe it and had him put to death. To this day, Jews still don’t think Jesus was the Messiah since he didn’t fit with their belief of what he should have been. It is a good thing we have the New Testament proclaiming the good news or the Bible would have drifted away into obscurity and we wouldn’t have the Christian faith now.
Rosenblatt, I know exactly where you are coming from. You believe that man has no soul??????? If man has no soul, is he the same as a dog or cat, horse or cow? Out of all the animals created, man was the only one who could reason, communicate, create, advance to a higher order down through history. If he is lucky, he lives to be 70-80 years on earth and then vanishes, soul and all. Wow, what an existence you must have. You keep on being a good man and doing good deeds. At least you are like a doctor with the oath – First, do no harm.
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Integrity –
Thank you for your answers. I think I better understand your point of view to my first question. I consider myself open minded, and even though I am not Christian I do enjoy having discussions on religion with my Christian friends as long as the conversation remains civil and tolerant on both sides.
However, I don’t see how my second answer has been answered. Why is it Ok for people who believe for a religious reason that homosexuality is a sin to force others to live by thier religious standard? Let me give you an example – some of my Christian friends believe that playing sports on Sunday is a sin because Sunday is the Sabbath. Because of this belief, they chose to not watch NFL games on Sunday and I have never invited them to my house to watch a game on Sunday. We tolerate each other’s own personal beliefs. But, would it be correct for those who believe playing football on Sunday is a sin to pass laws outlawing football on Sunday? I anticipate someone may say this is not a moral argument, but I do know that for them it is.
Confused,
Thanks for being open minded.
Regarding your second question, I don’t think I have the perfect response to your question.
First, people not honoring the Sabbath has gone on for thousands of years so it is ingrained into those that are Orthodox that, that is a way of life.
I don’t know how old you are, but there were laws that existed years ago called “Blue Laws” that required businesses to be closed on Sunday. These have almost completely gone away for various reasons.
Second, I think the homosexuality issue is more problematic because of the concerns of further deteriorization of society. The young people of the past several decades have been, and continue to be, indoctrinated to believe things that society wants them to believe.
As a result, we have been desensitized to what is right or wrong based on individual choice and relativism. Very few believe that absolute truth exists. My truth might not be what someone else thinks is true. This has been the degradation of society.
So the question is, where does it (or should it) end? Thus, the slippery slope.
I’ll use an example for illustration purposes only and not to start a discussion on the topic. When Roe V. Wade was passed, it was initially meant and intended only for 1st trimester abortions because “it was only a fetus and not a real human being yet”. Today, abortion is a billion dollar, on demand industry. They can be performed anytime for any reason, even though we know that it is a living, breathing, viable baby.
If marriage is not defined and restricted to a man and woman, how many other ways can it (should it) be defined? No matter where society draws the line, someone is going to be discriminated against. The “outsiders” will be victims because they are not being allowed to “love” like others do and have the same rights as others.
Confused, please don’t lump all Christians into the same as your friends. There are several hundred denominations and they all believe a little differently. Most Christians go to church on Sunday and see nothing wrong with enjoying NFL football in the afternoon when they are resting. I enjoy watching PGA Tour golf when I am relaxing. Many pastors don’t have a problem with it either and let services out so people can get home in time for kick off. Many of the pastors are fans as well. Some people take their beliefs to an unreasonable level.
Really Rosenblatt? Comparing Octupi & Dolphins to humans? I thought you to be a reasonably intelligent guy. If they are so smart as you say, how come they have not evolved for millions of years?
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There seems to be a misunderstanding of what I said. Not withstanding whether you support gay marriage or not, the court should not have taken it upon themselves to decide this issue for entire country. There is no provision in our Constitution for this. This is a states rights issue and should have gone through the states like it was appearing to do. Now we have judges, activist ones, who can decide anything they like. Terrible.
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My right to carry a concealed weapon varies by state. Why shouldn’t my CWP in SC apply anywhere in the US?
Jack, the United States of America is a real piece of work. Freedom is not free. The country is a melting pot and always has been. The problem we have now is that a very small portion of the population wants to dictate their beliefs on the majority of Americans. The Divider in Chief stokes the fire on any subject and look what we have.
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Celtica and Captain Planet,
Sometimes, it is prudent and wise to not do things, just because the majority is doing it.
My father used to say, if everyone is going to jump off a bridge, should you do it??
So I ask each of you, when the majority of the population thinks Polygamy, pedophilia heroin use and the myriad of other social ills is okay, are you going to agree with them??
Where do you draw the line?
Which bridge? How high is it? How deep is the water below? Is the water safe or is it filled with ravenous crocodiles?
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Realist/Captain Planet –
HAHAAHA. Good sarcastic remarks. I would hope you both are not that stupid to get the point. If you are, it explains a lot.
I notice you both chose not to answer the real questions I posed.
What the matter, hypocrites got your “fingertips”.
I’m still waiting.
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Pardon me – that should have read that 200 years ago slavery was NOT a social ill, but it is one now. I wrote that bass ackwards.
realist –
The point is that just because everyone “thinks” something is okay, it doesn’t mean that it is.
So you are okay with polygamy if it doesn’t hurt anyone. Just one?? Obviously, it will hurt someone.
But you want to discrimate against someone that loves another person? That’s not fair. Why should age matter?
If a mature 15 year old girl in high school asks for condoms from school, she’ll get them. If the condoms don’t work and she gets pregnant, she can go to planned parenthood and get an abortion. Both of these are allowed and condoned by society and they do not require parental consent.
If she tells planned parenthood that her 24 year old teacher is the father, he will lose his job, get arrested and sent to jail for being a pedophile and become a registered sex offender.
Is that fair? Society thinks the 15 year old is mature enough to have sex and deal with the consequences of sex, she just is not mature enough to pick the right partner?? You can’t have it both ways.
This is the sliipery slope that none of you want to admit exists. Some things need to be absolute.
Do you get it yet?
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Realist –
First of all, you are mixing apples and watermelons.
My example was a person making a decision that effects themselves (you know, the same excuse the gay community is using). Your example is where a persons actions affect others.
Second, of course there is a big difference in the motives and harm caused in your example, so the law and punishment should be commensurate.
Third, I am assuming by your absolute punishment comment that you are referencing eternal life and God’s judgment. That is strictly His decision. I don’t make the rules. My understanding is that sin is absolute and it separates us from God. We can’t enter heaven unless we are cleansed and forgiven of that sin.
How great is it that God will forgive everyone, regardless of what that sin is, if we only ask and believe?
Will you let anyone live in your house regardless of who they are and what they have done? God will. It definitely is a world that I want to live in.
Jack,
You asked, “Why shouldn’t my CWP in SC apply anywhere in the US?”
It should and I would support that effort.
How about buying alcohol? Some states used to be 18 years of age and others are 21. An eighteen year old can be recruited to die for their country but they cannot buy a beer unless they are 21.
Shouldn’t the people in Colorado and Washington be able to smoke weed in all the other states now that it is legal in their state?
Those are the choices you make because of your lifestyle and you should have to live with the pros and cons that come with it.
We live in the age of entitlements so everyone thinks they should have whatever they want, and whenever and whereever they want it. Life does not work that way and it is not suppose to work that way.
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Thank you tolerance matters. I just didn’t have it in me to read all the posts against equality and then reply. It seems so simple to me. If the people who fought for independence actually WANTED the United States to be a religious country (all laws based only on religion), they had the option.
Why didn’t they just declare the US a protestant or Christian nation and make all the laws strictly follow the bible? My guess is because that isn’t what they wanted.
tolerance –
I was merely trying to provide some examples. When i said that they are gay and do not want to be, it was meant in the contaxt of their actions, not their biological heritage.
Some people lie and feel guilty about it. It’s not in their DNA.
FYI, I have never said “You don’t live the life I do so in turn you are going to hell”, so please do not put words into my mouth. I have said the complete opposite.
I don’t decide who goes to heaven and hell, God does. He set the standard, I didn’t.
Everything I have shared is for the benefit of anyone who wants to learn and possibly believe. If they don’t, that is there choice. If I had a cure to save someones life, I would want to share it. That is all I am doing, except this has to do with ETERNAL life.
If I am wrong, Skippy, I am no worse off than anyone else who does not believe. If they are wrong, well, I hope you get the picture.
KY –
I wish all of you people open your ears. Where do you draw the equality line?
No one wants to answer the question if polygamists and pedophiles should have the same equal rights?
A thirteen year old should be able to sleep with 40 year old under the guise of love AND they should be able to get married, based on your logic.
Answer the question, hypocrites!!
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So you are still hiding behind a false moniker Boogereater to spout your idiocy? You are the scum of the earth. Why not be a man and post under your true identity so you can be discredited.
Bobsbuttbuddy- You insult my God with your name and therefore I will wage Jihad on you and your butt buddy. You will be thrown from the highest roof top. Or you can bring me goats and young girls. Your call. snackbar to you too.
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I fail to see how you think this form of name calling is appropriate, or what you think you accomplished here.
Anyone who disagrees with you must be the same correct?
I recently flatly called Agent out. We are not the same.
We use different logics, have different conclusions, and different reasonings.
And I have called you out too bob. Your long winded replies are rivaling some short stories for length and you tend to ramble as well. I cut you a little slack for being from very blue Washington State. We call California, Oregon, Washington State the left coast geographically and politically.
I tend to think that my replies are long with purpose.
I am from a leftist coast, but that is why I have learned to fight with liberals differently.
You and I have similar beliefs but for different reasons.
For example when I debate the estate tax, I debate about what is moral like you, but then I also add in what works in economy, and I add studies showing that it harms capital. Then I show studies on the left showing that the capital growth is bad to hinder, and use examples like small local banks. Those usually arise over time when a wealthy family amasses enough wealth to start a small bank, then it grows more over time. Otherwise, if it gets slammed with an estate tax each generation, it usually simply gets bought at a very low cost by a big bank.
I explain a lot more as to why something is harmful. You may see it as long winded, but it is with a point.
When I say something it isn’t to make a right point more left, it’s to make a right based point understandable to the left.
What you don’t understand is that they see your comments that are short and to the point as not backed up, and unreasonable.
bob, I don’t have many gripes with you and you do a good job defending your views, but you have had little impact with the leftist trolls on this blog, particularly with Ron who will never absorb any of your information as correct. Progressives never admit that they are wrong about anything. Remember when I reminded you that he had voted for Obama twice when you were under the impression it was only once. Only a complete fool would have voted for Obama twice.
Agent,
I understand why Bob’s replies are long. I have found myself forced to justify my response, within my response, to circumvent the expected criticizm or to support my position.
Unfortunately, it seems that the longer the response, the more some get distracted and get lost.
I have to give kudos to Ron for the recent dialogues we have had. He has been respectful and thoughtful with his responses.
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I know Agent. We both have had little affect with some of them I’m just saying my “attempt” is different in nature not that either is more successful on totality. If we combined parts of both of us we would certainly have better results. If we combined in more of Integrity’s level head you would have a heck of a conservative debater here.
As for the voting that just occurred so yes I recall. I was angry because I had successfully been fooled. Due to being more of a moderate, I can sometimes go into phases of thinking Ron is actually a moderate.
This is why there are sudden outbursts against Ron when I “realize” (again, how much of a battered wife am I here? I keep giving Ron chances in my mind on being a moderate) how much of a leftist he is.
It is basically me going into a “Did I seriously allow myself to think he was a moderate, again?”.
The posts I don’t comment on are the ones to pay attention to in those scenarios. Unlike some people here, there are many articles here I simply say nothing. These show some of the reasons why I finally come in pissed off at Ron.
Hi Integrity, this equal rights stuff drives me crazy. The libs on this blog will not answer your questions on where to draw the line. Pandora is out of the box now and the sky is the limit to them. The Utah polygamists will be jumping for joy if they get legitimized with their 10 wives in the household and 30 kids. The serial pedophiles will be able to line up young girls a lot easier and ruin many young lives. I believe a lot of the trouble we have in this country is tied to the breakdown of the family, not instilling proper values and morals and look what we have. Yes, it is a choice to be homosexual.
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Confused –
Stop being silly. You know Agent is not referring to women and slavery.
Maybe you will have enough guts answer my questions
Should polygamists and pedophiles should have the same equal rights? If not, why?
Pedophiles should not have equal rights because they are hurting other people, usually innocents who are not mentally or physically strong enough to stop it from happening.
As long as Polygamists aren’t hurting their wives and their wives are okay with it (see Hefner, Hugh) sure – give them equal rights too.
Happy?
That’s your opinion that pedophiles are hurting other people. To those that are willing participants, they think it is love. Based on society’s logic, you are discriminating against them. That’s what they say about people who think homosexuality is not socially acceptable.
Thanks for being honest that you are okay with polygamy. The problem is that someone is eventually going to get hurt.
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Confused –
I agree with you. But, what is your acceptable age of maturity? Puberty arrives at different times and can arrive as early as 8 years old.
My argument is not weak because that is what those who practice that will say. It is the same argument used for everything else.
Integrity, I need your opinion. Terry Dean, the Obama fundraiser/buddy in Oregon got caught along with his ex boyfriend sodomizing and sexual assault with a 15 year old boy and face charges. Are they pedophiles or what would you call them even if it was consentual?
Integrity, you may find a way to communicate with Ron and earn his respect and that is fine. That will last about one article and then Ron will be Ron as he has been the past 5 years trotting out his leftist comments and criticizing you for your opinion and facts.
By the way, he has often criticized my remarks about what has gone on in the past 30 years or so. I lived it and don’t need some link on a website to know right from wrong or what happened back in those days. Progressives in both parties have just about ruined this country with Democrats leading the way. Can we say $18 Trillion+ in debt yet? Can we repeat Nancy’s proclamation that this country doesn’t need religion, we have Democrats. What a dufus she has been and is.
I don’t know, Agent – Ron and IM have had some EXCELLENT discussions this week on many topics. How about you let IM come to his own conclusions and not just use this as an excuse to dump on Ron?
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TM –
This country does not need religion, but it does need God. Religion definitely gets in the way of what God really wants for our life because man has a selfish nature. We (mankind) naturally wants things our way.
That is why it is hard for anyone to understand that God’s ways are not mankinds ways. God doesn’t seem to make sense sometimes, but that is because He knows and sees the entire picture. Mankind does not.
If we all obeyed what God tells us to do, we would be better off, both individually and as a society. There is a fine line between “religion” and what God wants.
Integrity, the laws were written making it Statutory Rape for an adult to have sex with an underaged victim. It really doesn’t matter if it is consensual or not or if it is the same gender. A lot of young lives have been ruined by the predatory perverts in our society.
I agree, Agent. My concern is that those laws will eventually be amended to lower the age. This is the slippery slope that was just created.
Nothing more important to be addressed. Glad the world is at peace so we can get this off the desk.
Now, let go play nice with the commies in Cuba.
Hi FFA, are we having fun yet with this article? It is not hard to tell the Christians from the Atheists, is it?
Agent- shut up and make me my Confederate flag cake for my gay wedding.
Sometimes I just have to shake my head and laugh…
On the latest Chicago news – hang on planet… Chicago Police are preparing for a violent week end in Chicago. City of Chicago made their pension payment and a few hours later followed it with 1400 pink slips.
In Springfield, the Dems handed Rauner a budget that is 4 Billion short on cash. Of Course, Madigan bashed Rauner and Rauner asked the burning question – How are we gonna pay for this? We cant spend more then we have.
All this over shadowed the most important news story of the day- Brandon Saad has been traded away.
But, I am happy they finally settled the gay issue. To hell with 1400 jobs. Gays can now get married. YEA!
FFA- sounds like Greece. Socialism on display again for the world to see. Lean forward America!
FFA, something tells me that Planet did not attend his wedding on the south or west side of Chicago. Sorry to hear about the 1,400 lay offs of the Police Force up there. They have enough crime issues without laying off enforcement officers. Of course, Baltimore is the same way. Their cops are not even responding to trouble anymore for fear of doing something wrong and being charged for it. I think it is called Anarchy.
After re reading my post, I need to clarify – the pension & pink slips went to the Teachers Union. Union rep stated they were blind sided – they found out about the pink slips on the 09:00 pm news. Financial issues of the schools have been reported and the reported again. Blind Sided??? I think not. Total denial.
Funny watching Rahm blame Springfield. Meanwhile, Springfield blames Chicago for much of the financial woes. Now the knuckle head Dems in Springfield want to pass a one month budget and Rauner is saying no more temp fixes. Rauner wants Comp Reform, Pension reform, a property tax freeze. Meanwhile CPD is bracing for a wave of violence.
At least all gays can get married now.
Jack, I heard that Greece called on Obama for financial advice on how to solve their woes. Is that hilarious or what? Obama to Greece – Print more money. Surely you can print enough to get out of the ditch. If that doesn’t work, blame everything on Angela Merkel for not bailing you out yet again.
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Jack, how about an ISIS cake from Wal Mart?
Agent- and they want $15 an hour…lol.
So FFA, you meant the teachers who were making upwards of $100,000 per year and had benefits out the kazoo were the ones with the pink slips? That teachers union needed to have their wings clipped.
Yes agent. It was the Teachers union getting Pink Slipped. Seems the Charter Schools (non union) are fine and a carrying the average grad rate way up. If you ask me, Rahm seems to be on to something by privatizing the schools. hmmmm. less govt interference = better results?
Hahahaha, Jack’s post almost made me spit out my drink. That was hilarious!
Well, McDonalds is making real “Progress” now that they have hired the former Obama mouthpiece Robert Gibbs as a VP Marketing. I saw a picture of a new McDonalds and the counter just had mini computers for people to order at which saves some of those $15 per hour jobs since computers don’t ask for raises. My guess is that they will reduce their force in half in the next year so they can pay the burger flippers their $15 per hour.
At least those future burger flippers will be able to make ends meat with their new income!! (intentional spelling mistake pun intended)
Last week news report stated that McD’s was closing more restaurants then opening them. More jobs lost. But gays can marry so it balances out.
FFA, the good news is that Chik Fil A is expanding and opening new stores, even in blue Washington State where the lines stretch around the building. Remember when the gays thought they could shut Chik Fil A down by boycotting them? The result was that business was never better. They make a better sandwich as well.
I say raise the min wage to $50 an hour given there are no real consequences and they really do deserve 20 inch rims on their cadi.
If you give em $15.00, they are just gonna want $20.00.
FFA, how many Big Macs at $10-12 each do you think they will sell?
Off topic FFA, but did you see the story on Townhall that the woman in charge of the mystery Lois Lerner emails that disappeared is now in charge of Hilliary’s mystery emails? I am sure the worst ones are buried deep into the server that no longer exists.
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Jeb… Of Course.
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FFA, are you “feeling the Bern” yet up there in Wisconsin? Apparently, there are enough Socialists/Communists/OWS folks up there in Madison for him to get a large audience. I am sure he is Planet’s favorite candidate. On a scale of 0-100 with the farthest left being 0, old Bernie registers 0. Hillary may start feeling the heat a bit more and have to resort to out lefting him. Both are sickening to an average voter.
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FFA, it looks like you got out of Illinois just in the nick of time. Headlines are that they are facing a government shutdown kind of like Greece & Puerto Rico since they have spent beyond their means for so long. Laying off 1,400 teachers will be only the start and state employees will be next. Rauner is trying, but the impasse continues on the budget battle. Maybe Obama will be called for another bailout on a state deemed too big to fail.
They all went home with out a budget. Rahm wants a property tax increase which Rauner is dead set against. Toni – Crook County Board President – training ground for OBama – wants a 9% tax on Netflix and other things of the same nature.
Meanwhile, the state reps & senators were arguing all day long about their pay raise. Repubs want to forego it and the Dems want it now.
Teachers Union is in dis belief. Rahm blaming Springfield for decades of mis management – who was in charge down there? The Dems? Madigan? Blago? Quinn? All Dems. Rauner saying solve your own problems.
Rauner is just not going to budge. Balance the budget with out increasing taxes. Hope they have a nice vacation while the working folks sweat it out. When they get back, I am sure they will continue to argue about their pay raise. Rauner may just have to start swinging the ax all by himself.
Personally, after he fixes IL, I can see him in the white house cleaning up Obamas mess. For now, Pay attention to Walker.
FFA, before I forget it, I want to wish you, Jack & Integrity and your families a Happy Fourth of July. Our country is under assault from within and without and we need to give our prayers to our brave servicemen who have kept us free for 239 years. I am a proud veteran and a Patriot. It is sickening what has been happening to our country, but the country is resilient and it will turn around in about 18 months. Hang in there!
You have a great holiday too. I am staying in WI next week, work till noon out of the house and then hit the lake. Need a break from this IL mess. Just cant stand listening to the powers that be care about them selves only.
Thanks, Agent! I wish everyone a happy and safe holiday weekend!
I hope you have fun on the lake FFA. I am going to play golf Fri & Sat during this break. Every time I tee it up, I will think of a Progressive Socialist and pretend it is their head. I am sure to get another 20 yards out of my drive.
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You have a lot of rage in you Confused like a lot of leftists do. Hillary is bumping along on the 20% range and will have to do some more work to get down to Bernie’s score. I have no doubt that she will as he continues to get some of her true believers. Wouldn’t that be a sight with the two of them on the stage debating and seeing which one would advocate a Marxist state first?
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Thank you, Ron, we try.
Unfortunately our founding fathers and the citizens who inhabited this nation understood the evils of central government better than our citizens. Also they were much smarter and had integrity ingrained in them all of their lives. Not so much now, and we are paying the price for it. Now you have politicians and judges who feel they can do whatever they want and get away with it, and they are right. Half of our country are dumber than a box of rocks, and many other do not care what is happening, and are just into it for as much as they can get. Too bad!
You are right Lou. The Progressives out there want us to fund everything for them, then tax us to death while they avoid paying their Federal Income tax like Ron. The country was set up as a Republic with Executive, Legislative & Judicial branches so a check and balance system would keep them in line. Of course, the Executive branch wants to dictate everything now and the Judicial is going along for the ride. The country is in bad shape now and a big house cleaning is in order.
mumblefrgrrthpfhhh “ABORTION” hfjjrretmumblemumblemumble “JESUS” hhggfrrttuummmmmscmeerfreud “REAGAN” mumblemumblennneeeeiiiigrrfred “HOMOS” nnncccvvvhhhddrrtttmumblemumble “BOBLOVESAGENT”nngggmmmfffrrtttt “LIBERALS”memememmewetmyself
mutters –
That’s the best you can do? I guess I hit a nerve since you have no responsible response.
Are you related to the latest Darwin Award winner that set off the fireworks on his head? I sincerely feel sorry for the family that they have to suffer through such a tragedy.
I’m sure you or someone else will try to blame it on Bush, or Christians since the left never thinks anyone should take responsibility for their actions.
I saw that story on the guy that put fireworks on his head and set it off. A new way to commit suicide. Do you think he could have been a low information voter?
It would not surprise me, Agent.
Any bet that he saw someone else do it (at the party or on Youtube) with a firecracker and thought he could do it with whatever explosive he had?
A fine example of “just because other people are doing it, it doesn’t make it right for others to do it”. I guess his bridge was a little too high (and so was he).
I feel very sad for the family after this senseless and preventable act.
Hey Integrity, if you have a minute, go onto Townhall.com and ready the latest on the Obamacare fiasco. Per the NYT, hardly the bastion of Conservatism, the headline is – Looks like Obamacare is causing “massive rate hikes”. A lot of good info is in this article with graphs etc. I am sure Celtica will continue to trumpet it’s success just like her President.
Agent,
I just took a peek at it and, to no surprise, it is exactly what we have been saying the entire time.
Do you see Obama’s statement “If commissioners do their jobs and actively review rates, my expectation is that they’ll come in significantly lower than what’s being requested.”
King Obama has apparently spoken and sent out his edict. It apparently doesn’t matter in his dream world that it is unsustainable at the lower costs. The democratic insurance commissioners will likely fall in line and approve something irresponsible. The private health insurance market will eventually dry up and people will be forced to buy their coverage from the govt.
Just like Obama’s playbook drew it up. It’s no wonder that his plan is exceeding his expectations. he didn’t think it would happen this soon.
Integrity, had they left the Pool business alone with all those sick people and not put them with the healthy applicants, perhaps the rates would have stabilized. Instead, down with the Pools and put everyone together and look what we have. Not enough healthy and too many sick and there goes the loss ratio. Not to worry, Obama will bail them out if the rate increases are not adequate.
Hey Integrity, in today’s Townhall.com, there is a juicy story on the IRS/DOJ Lois Lerner email scandal that will raise the hair on your neck. They are even nastier than everyone first believed. They were actually going to criminally prosecute any Conservative 501C applying for tax free exemption. Lois Lerner, the leather faced Progressive Democrat, Holder and possibly the FBI Director were doing some very bad things behind the scenes. They should all be put in jail, but Obama will give them a pardon. Isn’t that about right?
When are they going to rename Yale ? You do know he was a slave trader ?
Jack, a Federal Judge revoked the Washington Redskins trademark today. What would satisfy them, Washington Reidskins? Perhaps the team should move to a better city.
Now because of these activist judges and a President who no regard for the Constitution, he issued changes by executive order to integrate neighborhoods whether we like or not. So if you work hard, play by the rules, get a great house in a nice area, you might have a gang member, or a slob living next to you. Really lousy.
Lou, this is similar to the sub prime mortgage mess that brought on the Great Recession. Progressives in both parties thought it to be a great idea to give everyone a home loan regardless of the ability to pay the mortgage and millions went into default. Fannie & Freddie, along with Wall Street played the credit default swaps and got burned and then we had to bail their butt out.