Ain’t gonna happen. Travelers showed the other guys that you can just hack away at compensation and the agents don’t respond by firing them and going to carriers who have higher commission rates. As long as interest rates and economic growth are both low, you can expect competitors to follow their lead to remain in the ballpark in the current environment.
Let’s hope your right but fight to keep your commission so we stay in business and can continue to offer valuable service the insurance companies won’t get from a boiler room. Flo was the first one to screw the agent without a doubt. Why the independent agent supports this company I do not know. Now they are selling other lines of business insurance. Seriously stop supporting companies like Progressive if your an independent agent.
California, Progressive is used by our agency only for problem drivers the others don’t want. They will write virtually anyone for a price. Try getting a family with three underage drivers with tickets and accidents written through the standards. Progressive is a necessary evil. By the way, they also have the highest standard of contingency and it takes about twice the premium volume to get contingency from them. We don’t worry about that and use them as little as possible.
Progressive has never paid what the Independent companies have paid and their contingency requirement is astronomical. They aren’t interested in proper remumeration to their agents. Besides, they write more direct so they don’t have to pay any commission.
Weird, you always rip on the people who work on the insurer side as being terrible at sales, but you are essentially buying their product, and selling yours, yet constantly whine about not getting a good deal. That doesn’t seem consistent, especially for a world class salesman like yourself.
Wow this must be an underwriters magazine. Thanks UW for supporting your comrads genius. No we are not buying your product and selling ours that is stupid way to look at it. I am selling your product for you and making sure you don’t rip off the consumer and offer a fair product. I am a salesman yes but offer a service with my sale which involves a decent commission to pay my rent and expand my business so I can sell more insurance for you genius. By the way there has been zero inflation and infact deflation in almost all insurance prices in the last 30 years. Check the facts there soldier and quit cutting my commission. We got 10 to 20 % for 100 years depending on the product and sales volume and profitability and you genius want to run us out of business and pays us nothing basically. By the way your job is next to go if not first genius.
PS- for all the people that thumbs this down I am sure you work for the insurance company.
California Agent, you must be one of the few in California that is a Conservative. I commend you for hanging in there in the land of Brown, Boxer and Feinstein. Yes, UW is nothing more than a loud mouth Progressive Socialist who screams, rants, cusses all the time and would love agents to go away. The good news is that we are still here doing the best we can for our carriers, customers and handling the difficult issues we face every day.
May 24, 2016 at 1:30 pm
GWells says:
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I remember when Progressive had a 3 tiered commission schedule (Classic @ 15% new 10% renewal, Advantage @ 10% new 8% renewal and Ultra 6% new 4% renewal) which the agents could choose which tier they wanted to use. I haven’t checked lately but I believe I still have some 10% renewals coming in.
This was the ONLY time I’ve seen the Fed’s come in and tell the insurance companies that they couldn’t do something.
G, you must have been with Progressive a longer time than I have. We have been stuck with 10% for eons with them. Now, they have a new HOBT coming out and wanting us to sell it for less commission than our other HOBT carriers. Hey, got to get that companion credit for the Auto that they pay 10% on. What a deal.
We as agents pay the companies 85 – 90% and sometimes a bit more. What can we as agents and agency owners expect from an entity that we provide to them such a high amount of commissions?
Actually your clients pay the carriers, not you. Many States allow you to take a net quote and charge a broker fee – if you do not like the compensation quote net and sell “your service” to your client. Many agents “sell” the cheapest price and support the model of reduced commissions as a result.
This brings up an age old question: How much does it cost and agency or broker to produce business? How can fees overcome a reliance on a commission based product?
and to Martin, the carrier is the risk taker and should retain the majority of total premiums. Education of the parts that make up premium should be revisited by you soon.
Geek, you sound like a modeler geek of the first order. Of course the carriers have always kept the lion’s share of the premiums to pay losses and overhead. We don’t have a problem with that, but the carriers have been reducing the share even more than the past. We have to do a lot of their work for them and they sit in their ivory towers scheming on Predictive Modeling, Price Optimization and causing grief for the customer and the agent has to try to explain it to them. If we can retain a customer, we have proved our worth. It is hard work.
The real issue is whether brokers and Agents really know how much it costs them to place business both new and renewal. I believe the fee based approach does a better job of highlighting the cost of business production. Commissions are a bad barometer of estimating costs.
And for Martin, carriers retain the greater portion of premium due to them taking the risk. Understanding the components of what makes up premium is important and communicating that internally and externally is critical.
@Geek. No kidding! I have been in this business many years. The point to my statement is as follows… We as the agencies and agents are the bread winners here.. If we wanted to, we agents and agency owners could put the companies out of business if we organized together. In other words, I will put it in a manner that even you can understand… We hold the cards, and the companies better adhere to this message and treat us as such or they will be looking for a different gig..
Agents hold the cards? Seriously? Without insurance companies you have no product to sell. Insurers can, and some do, sell direct without independent agents. Careful with what you demand or you may find an increasing trend of eliminating independent agents in the years to come. You create a problem for the companies and solutions will be found and you may not like them. It’s all part of capitalism and entreprenuerism. Companies want to increase profits. You want to increase your profits. You cost companies increasing amounts of money due to your demands for higher commission percentages. Companies find cheaper way of reaching the customer.
Don’t get me wrong, agents deserve to be paid appropriately for their work. But, agent commissions are an expense to companies and reduce company profits.
Martini….facts – commissions have continuously gone down, as have contingency commissions, for the 40 years I’ve been in this game (I can show you the `paper’ if you’re in disbelief). At the same time, automation has allowed the companies to push many of their costs down to us – rating, printing of physical policies, etc., etc. etc….. I remember the first ROOM SIZE BOX Continental brought into our offices while pointing out how much $$ is was going to save us. If the carriers could get away with dealing with everyone directly over the internet – they would long ago have done it (at our expense). But, they can’t. `Find an increasing trend’??? THAT TREND has been around for years!
`You cost companies increasing amounts of money’??? Increasing? REALLY? Have you been in the business for 2 years? 3? What REALLY reduces company profits are BAD FIELD UNDERWRITERS (i.e. bad agents) and bloated operating expenses (which agents commissions represents an increasingly smaller percentage of).
Pete, I hate to tell you this, but good agents selling profitable business are in great standing with the markets. We had a record contingency return this year with all our markets because of low loss ratio, grew the volume and had great retention. This doesn’t keep the companies from reducing commissions on some policies and we do have to work harder for our income, but the last time I checked, 100% of nothing is still nothing. We do provide value to the customer and they don’t leave as long as we take care of business and move the customer when they get unjustified rate increases. The GEICO’s, Allstates of the world have a big turnover in customers with their practices.
May 20, 2016 at 9:46 am
Fair Playing Field says:
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Martin,
Start issuing your own policies and paying any associated claims, then. After all, as you say you are “the breadwinner” and you “hold the cards”.
Independent agencies and independent agency companies (like mine) have a symbiotic relationship and need to work together to meet both their mutual and individual goals. A person on either side that believes their side holds the power is both arrogant and uninformed.
From my personal experience (product manager) in talking to agency owners about their businesses, I think many of them focus too much on new business sales while neglecting retention and building a renewal book. To me this is short-sighted. Agencies that also put an emphasis (read: resources) on retention tend to have more stable, better performing books, and their compensation from their companies will reflect that.
It is expensive to have any (local) agency because of the cost of human capital. Someone has to be there to answer the phone. I guess 800 numbers are more (cost) efficient due to volume?
Correct Knowall. People that are not agency owners have no idea how expensive it is to operate an agency, produce new business, renew business in this economic climate. We have to keep growing in order to stay even with expenses that keep going up.
It is very expensive to run a retail agency. The agencies has lost more and more auto and small business to the internet. Thus less revenue to pay basic office expenses. The MGA’s need to step up to the plate and get the carriers to increase commissions. Our agency has a NO MGA program that is starting to work. If we do not get 15% commission we do not write it.
I wonder if your clients are aware that your agency has put its own interests above theirs.
You can spin it any way you want, but at the end of the day aren’t you suppose to find the best coverage at the lowest premium, regardless of your own compensation?
Wrong again “reading comprehension deprived”. You can spin your out of control nonsense all you want, but at the end of the day, you are still stuck in your cubicle spouting off, putting down good agents trying to make a living in this Obama economy. We are the Capitalists and you are the Socialist evident by your voting record the past two Presidential elections.
California Agent supporting my Florida Agent says:
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Wow Ron you must work for the ” on line” insurance companies and do not have a clue about running an insurance agency. Florida agent is 100 % correct and his point is you cannot dwindle us down to the point where you put the retail broker out of business. We need our 10 to 15 % to pay the rent. Having a boiler room of uneducated inexperienced employees in a cheap state or foreign country selling and servicing insurance may work for Geico and Flo but will eventually backfire on the insurance companies because insurance requires some personality to get the job done is all I can say. I guess your trying to save 5 % on your auto insurance so you must be the guy with 15/30 limits.
Wrong, I mean very wrong. I am a broker who also relies heavily on commissions.
Also, thank you for totally missing my point. As I said, there is nothing wrong with placing business with the carrier that pays the higher commission as long as your customer has complete information. If I value my agent, I won’t mind paying a higher premium, within reason, to help him/her stay in business.
For the record, I do use an agent for all of my business even though I could easily do it myself.
I would certainly pity your agent Ron. I bet you give him grief at every opportunity. Has he invited you to use someone else yet? I bet you argue with him at every renewal about your escalating premiums in wonderful NY state.
May 25, 2016 at 9:01 pm
Ron says:
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Agent,
Do you ever get sick of being wrong? It is the easiest money he makes.
Ironic that you speak of escalating premiums coming from TX.
May 20, 2016 at 9:27 am
Agent says:
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Florida, the real money the companies make is on renewal. The agent might receive 15% for new and then it is reduced to 12% on the renewal, particularly on Auto. If there is a stand alone HO, they reduce commission on that if it doesn’t have a companion Auto. There are many ways companies figure out how to minimize their commissions to agents. Don’t hold your breath about MGA’s being on your side. You will be lucky to get 10% on the typical risk going through them.
Quit with the reading comprehension comments. It screams whiny little kid. Adults correct people and call them wrong. Kids attach the “reading comprehension” remarks to call them wrong as a whole rather than directing one comment at a time.
Also, I notice your “reading comprehension” must be wrong, if I used your wording, but I’ll use adult wording.
You missed this entire conversation just about.
Agent is covering the standard market agreeing that insurance companies screw you on commission even more on renewal, and that MGA’s won’t help that. He is perfectly on topic and you missed that.
“MGA’s need to step up to the plate and get the carriers to increase commissions. ”
Makes sense to respond with:
“Don’t hold your breath about MGA’s being on your side. You will be lucky to get 10% on the typical risk going through them.”
He didn’t say anything that suggested he had reading comprehension skills, but you sure as hell did.
All those whiny little kids reading Insurance Journal.
May 24, 2016 at 11:54 am
Ron says:
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Bob,
If he did not specifically reply to and address Florida Agent, I would agree with you.
I am sick of Agent not responding appropriately based on what is posted. If you were 1/4 as intelligent as you portray, you would not defend him so much. It makes you look uneducated.
May 24, 2016 at 12:07 pm
Agent says:
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Good one Bob. You had it exactly right about my meaning and Ron in full troll mode did not. Did you know that Ron tried selling one time briefly and quickly found out that he wasn’t suited for it? Probably found out he couldn’t close anything. Why are we not surprised?
May 24, 2016 at 12:12 pm
Ron says:
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Agent,
Of course you thought it was a good one, you are even less educated than Bob.
To clarify, I sold for 3 years and was the top producer of 5 for the 18 months prior to moving into a position in which I was able to actually learn about insurance instead of regurgitating talking points.
Maybe you should try that so you can speak intelligently about insurance pricing and underwriting.
Ron, you are so stupid you don’t even realize that you could have done so much better being a producer than you have being a cubicle gnat. The sky is unlimited for a highly successful producer. Congratulations. You are the first I have ever seen that turned down sales in favor of an office job with a limited future. Hold out for that gold watch if you last that long.
May 24, 2016 at 3:20 pm
Ron says:
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Agent,
You complain when I say you only care about money, then criticize me for choosing a career that provides more professional satisfaction than money. Have I ever complained that I do not make enough to pay my bills, enjoy life, and save for retirement?
Have ever even considered the fact that money does not motivate everyone? I am much happier now. Isn’t that what is suppose to matter?
I am starting to get the impression that you are jealous. You live your life and I will live mine.
May 20, 2016 at 10:45 am
wayne smith says:
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I find “value chain” an interesting description. I find most agents and brokers add very little “value” to the transaction, and typically just forward info along with little value added. Eventually, they will become too expensive and carriers will find ways around them to work directly with the customer.
The value is to the insured. They get advice on what limits are actually good for them, what coverages they need, etc. Companies with large risk departments probably don’t need this, but it could be pretty valuable to smaller companies, or companies where that money would be more profitable somewhere else. Using an agent can also help avoid taking advice from a company providing insurance which would have a conflict of interest.
Ron, I can’t help it if you didn’t have enough gumption or drive to stay in sales or even start an agency. I know a lot of agents in my association and if they were offered something like what you apparently have, they would turn it down in a heart beat. They rather enjoy being their own boss and creating their own success in this business. Yes, they have headaches from what is going on, paying the bills, dealing with companies, but it beats being stuck in a dead end job. By the way, the equity in an agency isn’t bad when an agent decides to retire. It beats the pension plans and Social Security all over the place.
In this business, there are Hunters and there are Gatherers. The hunter is the one who finds customers (brings home the bacon) and develops them and then sells them the proper protection and the Gatherers are you and Ron who take orders and process business. Obviously, the lion’s share should go to the Hunters who actually do it. No shame in being a Gatherer, just don’t expect to make the same money and have the prestige.
you do realize that there are things more important in life than money, right?
May 20, 2016 at 12:43 pm
agent14 says:
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I think carriers cutting commissions is short sited: There was a time not too long ago when the going rate was 20%.
Any IA can choose which auto company to push. Travelers and Progressive would write SO MUCH more business if they offered regular compensation. They have to fight to win it in my agency, and of course they lose all ties, or even if they are slightly better than the next company. My agency gets paid to produce through carriers that fully support my agency. Enough said.
I wonder how many times carriers have heard that comment (“raise your commission and we’ll send you more”). But it doesn’t happen. Progressive’s already proved it – #1 IA writer with a history of having the lowest commissions in the industry. Why change now?
Only because they are in every agency. If an agency writes two a month they are a super star. My agency writes about one a year.. They could give me 30% commissions and I wouldn’t write the class of customer they attract.
Carriers do not pay your commission, your clients do. If you make decisions regarding which carrier you place a policy based on the commission paid, you are not acting in the best interest of your client.
That’s right! My customers pay fees – fully disclosed up front. Either in lieu of company commission, or in addition to it. I’m continuously asked how I can keep my doors open operating on such a margin! Quit being sheep. You’re either worth what you’re paid, or your not. What insurance companies who directly sell on the internet are finding out is – an internet sale IS ALL ABOUT PRICE and retention is not good. I don’t sell PL unless it’s associated with a CL customer. Price is a consideration, but much less of one in that instance. Insurance carriers cutting commission is a long term trend that is NOT going to stop, so FOR ME, they better step up with the products, service and claim handling…. MY CUSTOMER depends on me to see that they do!
Pete, if you only sell Personal Lines associated with a CL customer, you must have a small volume of PL accounts. I have all my CL customers PL accounts, but PL can be lucrative as well. Referrals are also nice since they are 75% sold when they come through the door. By the way, PL also can result in a better contingency pay out. It has been very good to us.
“I think carriers cutting commissions is short sited: There was a time not too long ago when the going rate was 20%.” Auto is currently a loser based on loss ratio. If it very easy to quote and not much work for agents to work on – why should you be paid 20% on that line? Your comments show no awareness of product lines loss ratio, the amount of value add you put in (A professional lines policy should be 15-20% as you have to look at manuscript forms and compare company A to company B). What value add do you do for auto other than filing in the accord?
@Fair playing field… Take the premiums that the Independent agencies and captive agencies have and then tell me who holds the cards here. Tell me that we couldn’t run a better business than most of these carriers. If we would combine our premiums and start our own company, that would leave the carriers with all the bad business that we didn’t roll to our new company. It’s quite simple to understand. We do hold the cards and I am confident that we could do a much better job then the carriers in which I see their mistakes every day. If they don’t start changing in the near future they will report to us. Us being the Independent agencies that do hold most of the cards. Many of you on here may have small agencies or none at all and if that is the case you wouldn’t understand.
“If we would combine our premiums and start our own company…”
Don’t forget you’ll need at least two times your premiums for reserves, and then of course there’s your start-up costs like facilities, processing system, and employees. Not to worry, though. You can get money from investment bankers, and I hear they’re not meddling or demanding in the least.
Like I said, a person on either side that believes their side holds the power is both arrogant and uninformed.
@Fair playing field.. You may want to look up Appalachian underwriters filings or any other start up company to see what the commissioner requires. Most can be accomplished by a Bond. There are a few companies out there that have already did what I suggested and they are ran very professional and profitable. The problems with the carriers are…They are the ones that are arrogant. The buck starts with the agencies and producers.. our clients don’t know what carriers their with most of the time.. They will go with who we suggest.so it is we- the agents and agencies that ask them to pay whom.. The carriers don’t even know where the money comes from half the time.. It may be arrogant, but we really don’t need them in the long run. They need us more and that’s a fact.. They should start acting like it.
There are plenty of quality service oriented carriers in the market whose business model is based on the independent agent model. Success in the long run requires finding these carriers and working together to add value to your clients that far surpasses any price advantage a direct marketing carrier may have. You will have the power over which carrier your client chooses until another agent who doesn’t belittle their carrier reps comes in with a better and cheaper proposal.
On a side note, you belittling other posters as being too unsophisticated or having too small an agency while thinking a carrier would not think of agency with $5 million in total premium as small potatoes is laughable. $5 million in premium with a single carrier MIGHT but probably doesn’t even put you in the top 10 in your region with most carriers.
If it wasn’t for the independent agency the commercial carriers would have the business that we provide to them each and every day. We are the ones fighting for our customers, fighting for competitive pricing for our customers and fighting to keep the business on our books. Every day it is a battle out in the field of independent agencies.
We should get better commission from them.
Martin, typical agent response – “we could do a much better job then the carriers” . Don’t forget to add the old tried & true UW/pricing model that every company should follow for guaranteed success – “Just lower your rates a little and increase commission and you’ll write more profitable business”.
I’m a little wiser than your typical agent. Quite frankly, I am a little insulted that you called me by that name. That would be like calling the school janitor the principal. Not everyone who sells insurance or is associated with it is only titled as agent. Believe me I know the cost of an actuary and that is also put in my plan of owning my own company. You can either be positive and see the model of a better company or you can follow the bad carriers over the cliff. If you can’t see the flaws in most of the carriers then your income must be quite low.
martin, I have been approached by a few of our markets offering a “Service Center” to handle customers (for a fee of course). Hey, they will take over the customer contact, process the business, make changes etc for an additional 3% of the commission so the agent will have more time to sell new business. Looks good in theory, but where they get in trouble is trying to explain rate increases and the inability to shop for another market for the customer if it needs to be moved. The customer just goes away. I have never been interested in this approach and prefer to maintain contact with the customer and look after them. Why would I want a company looking after my customer? They look after the company interest, first and foremost.
Did I miss something? I am against carriers in all shape and sizes. I think most are incapable of thinking. The companies are good, it’s the people who they hire that are annoying.
May 23, 2016 at 8:20 am
lonestar says:
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At some point agents have to decide that they are either in this business to earn a living, and not doing this for free. Carries are bent on maximizing their revenue at the expense of the agent earning less commissions, so why is it wrong for an agent to want to do the same thing, maximize income? The minute an agent no longer has a say on which carrier to present to the client, that is the minute that carriers no longer need agents. If an agent only presents the lowest price, a simple “Obamacare” like website can do that for consumers. An agent that looks out for himself, his family, his business future, by promoting the carriers that support his agency the most, while at the same time providing the customer with the product they need, is not any different than a Supermarket store manager that is being supported more by “Coca Cola” vs. Pepsi, and therefore the manager places Coca Cola’s products more prominently throughout the store and pushes that product over competitors. Another example: A police officer can choose to go to work for a neighboring city that is going to pay him more salary, what is wrong with him looking out for his family?
Right, wrong or indifferent, agents are not as respected and revered as they used to be. A big part of that are all of the news stories about agents placing business with certain carriers based on their reward (commission, contingencies, trips, etc.) instead of what is best for their clients. Could a company pay the highest commission and be the best option for the client? Absolutely.
How often do you show your clients your complete compensation from each carrier you represent? Do you show them all of the proposals or just the ones from the carriers who pay the higher commissions?
The retail store analogy does not work because, in most cases, insurance clients do not know all of the pricing options if an agent will only place business with certain carriers. When you go into a store, the prices are all there. Even if one product is more prominent, a diligent customer will still be able to easily find out the prices for the other brands and make a fully informed decision.
As I said before, the clients pay the commission, not the company.
The agent’s responsibility is to put the client’s interested before their own, period. It is called ethics.
So Ron, if Progressive reduces your commission to 1% and all other carriers pay 10%, and you quote autos for a client and Progressive has the best rate by $10 / year, are you going to promote Progressive to your clients at the peril of not being able to feed your family? What you fail to realize is this business has no ethics left in it. When is the last time your took an ethics course to see where it mentioned a carrier squeezing an agent to not offer home without the cross sold auto? Where in ethics does it say it is ok for a carrier to force an agent to sell “X” number of policies at reduced commission or “off with their head”? Companies have no ethics is the point. You call spout all you want about “ethics”, but guess what, if you do not do what is best for yourself, you will find soon you are working pro bono for these companies.
Is this really happening in the marketplace or are you making up extremes to make a point?
I would imagine that if I explained to the client that I could save them $10, but I would be out of business, 1 of 2 things would happen; 1. They would pay the extra $10, or 2. I would kick them out of my office. Who wants a client that does not value his/her agent?
As long as you are completely transparent, I do not see an issue placing business with the carrier that has the higher premium and higher commission. Just give the client and opportunity to make a fully informed decisions. Is that really so much to ask?
I truly believe that someone who wants an agent understands it may cost more due to the commission. Otherwise, they are plenty of direct markets, especially for auto.
Regarding you concerns about companies. I agree that they can be short on ethics also. That, however, does not excuse the agent from being ethical and vice versa. We are not in third grade and cannot use “he did it first” as a reason for being unethical.
The problem with clients is they can’t make a full and informed decision. Christ , we have to manage the carriers and the customers. Neither know a damn thing about insurance and I’m starting to get the feeling that you don’t either. Sorry, but I’m a little tired of nugs. Does your Doctor ask you what type of prescription he should prescribe? I’m the professional here and if you want your cancer cured then do exactly as prescribed or go some where else.. Pretty simple.
May 25, 2016 at 5:57 pm
agent14 says:
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So Ron, are you saying you would not sell Progressive to all your customers, if they are the lowest rate in your agency, even at 1% commission? If you could answer the question more directly please.
May 25, 2016 at 9:07 pm
Ron says:
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agent14,
What part of, “I would imagine that if I explained to the client that I could save them $10, but I would be out of business, 1 of 2 things would happen; 1. They would pay the extra $10, or 2. I would kick them out of my office. Who wants a client that does not value his/her agent?” was unclear?
If you really need a direct answer, no.
Will you now answer my questions?
May 23, 2016 at 9:19 am
Fair Playing Field says:
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@Martin:
So why aren’t you doing exactly what you’re going on and on about? What’s holding you back? You’re not all hat and no cattle, are you?
Get out there, man, and round up all of those independent agencies and get them to throw in with you. All they have to do is pledge their allegiance and assets to your new organization, and everyone gets a voice in all company decisions that’s commensurate with their investment, right?
Good luck.
As for the more sane agents, it’s only natural for companies to want to minimize expenses, but producers with better results should command better commissions. Ask your companies what retention and performance metrics they use to grade agency (and company) results, and continually compare those of your agency to the company total. If the company is not paying you for above average performance, or not doing well overall, you’ll know (and know more quickly) that it’s time to move your book.
Thank you! It won’t be easy- but as early as this morning we had an investor meeting. I am not saying that it will be easy, because it won’t be. I am saying that after all this time of witnessing the bad moves that most carriers make there has to be a better way. The carriers (not all) seem to have forgotten that we agency owners and producers are a very important factor in the equation. Just listen to some of the carriers customer service reps. They surely are not taught how important we are. A little respect with the notion of where the money comes from goes a long way. My customers recognize my agency when asked who they are with. They have to dig around for their declaration page for the name of the carrier. The contract is with the carrier and client, but agency owners and producers are the light that drives them there. I think it’s pretty easy to see who holds the customer.. Good luck to you too!!
Martin – your idea is not new. Go look up Jack Schiff and Cincinnati Insurance Company. Jack was an agent and did exactly what you are saying back in the 1950s and was very successful. Understand their history and you may have success. Curious if anyone on here represents Cincinnati and if they now look at them as a company trying to squeeze their agents. They were founded by 100% independent agents. Good luck to you.
Martin wrote: “A little respect with the notion of where the money comes from goes a long way”.
Indeed, both companies and agents can always do a better job of respecting the customer, since that’s where the money truly comes from. They’re the ones that actually “hold the cards”.
A wise agent once told me when I was a young producer that – The customer may not always be right, but they are always the customer. No customer, no income. Treat them right, listen to them and they will likely stay. The relationship and trust means everything, something the online crowd will never enjoy.
martin, I made a perfectly reasonable statement which is very true and the weirdo’s that you mentioned are the same ones who downthumb any comment I make on any subject because they are hateful idiots who have not one agent among them and are residing in their cubicles daily to troll this site. Did I mention they are Obama, Hilliary, Sanders supporters who believe in Socialism, can’t stand the success of entrepreneurs who believe in Capitalism and the American Dream. It would be nice if they all immigrated to either Cuba or Venezuela so they can see their preferred system in action.
For a second there, I thought you were referring to me. Then I saw your second sentenced and realized you were not actually referring to me or anyone who has posted on this site.
Not one comment here from the captive agent side? Allstate has unilateral control of our work agreement – which is laughably titled the “Independent Contractor Manual”. 26 years ago, we were paid 10% to 20% depending on product line. Homeowners used to be 20% new business and 10% renewals. After the mass termination and contract change in 2000 we were still paid 10% base on most products.
3 years ago, Allstate told an agency task force that our commission base would be lowered to 8%!!!! The task force raised a ruckus and Allstate held the commission cut to 9%. Since Allstate has no respect for whatever contract we are hired under, the 10% cut applies to all agents.
Oh sure, you can get back to 10%, but only if you sell 12 to 18 financial products a year, on 12 month moving basis.
It’s not hard to stay at 10% but it will be if they cut to 8%. A document leaked to agents several years ago revealed a presentation to the board of directors showing plans to cut commissions to 8% – that presentation was in 1998!!!
Allstate guy, we hear you. We have seen all the Allstate stories on the rift between management and agents and how the agents formed a guild/union to deal with them. Many Allstate agents would just love to be Independent instead. Are you in that category? They have been in trouble in several states for optimizing their premiums or taking unjustified rate increases like the recent Georgia case. It will be interesting what the investigation reveals instituted by the Georgia commissioner.
I was on that conference call that inadvertently invited me. I was an independent Allstate agent at the time. I wouldn’t have anything to do with them, they are worse than the KGB.
martin, most of the Allstate agents I know are “Captives”. Allstate usually only permits small town agents to have more than one market. In the cities, it is Allstate or the highway.
All you agents are fools if you do not realize that all the companies are watching what you are saying about commissions. Those that openly say that they will sell the lowest rate, no matter what the compensation is, are providing the nails to your own coffins to the carriers. As others have said earlier, if the agent cannot be enticed, cajoled, pushed to sell a certain product over another due to better compensation, etc, then why pay the agent anymore than the lowest paying company out there? Does anyone still have brain cells to realize this?
markus, interesting that you are calling agents “fools”. Are you a company man auditing this blog? No agent on this blog is advocating only selling the lowest rate no matter what the compensation is. I think you may be the fool. We pride ourselves on selling quality protection to our customers and yes, we do try to get the best price we can from our carrier line up. We also want to be compensated fairly by our markets. If we make companies money as shown on monthly statements we get, the companies need to reward us instead of cutting our commission.
Agent, I do not think you read Markus’s first sentence. “All you agents are fools IF you do not realize that all the companies are watching what you are saying about commissions.” The word “IF” is the important word here. No one was called a fool.
But I do agree, that all of us agents ARE fools, if we do not think we are being watched and studied by the carriers as to what we think and say about commissions in an open forum like this.
lonestar, we sincerely hope the company people are looking at the forum. Perhaps a few of them may scratch their head and say, wow, this is what they are thinking? What are we doing wrong? Is our policy of constant rate taking, optimization, re-tiering, re-scoring causing any problems? Is cutting the commissions on policies a wise thing to do?
knowall, do you think the average insurance consumer knows about Caveat Emptor? Do you think good agents have to counsel and advise them about protection needs? Do you think the average GEICO order taker advises them well? I think not and that proves the value of agents to consumers.
Agent: no, what you said was actually my exact point, and thanks for clarifying. Although we are an agent for both the company and the insured, the insured certainly relies on us to do the right thing…since even very intelligent and storied people don’t understand insurance they still need us – white collar job security! We kind of step in place of the prospect/insured making sure they are benefiting from the right moves. Hence, the stress of being an agent!
If we pull together we win together; if we pull apart we fall apart — I’d hate to figure out the relationships between companies and agents at this juncture; what used to often be a family atmosphere is often not there anymore.
knowall, you are very correct. I can’t tell you how many times I have reviewed a potential clients current coverage, pointed out all the discrepancies in coverage and had them say to me, “they told me I had full coverage”. This happens more commonly with either Farmers or Allstate but others also do it. These people sell on watered down cheap coverage and people really think they are great until a claim happens. Being a good agent and doing right does pay dividends with referrals from satisfied customers.
You are right about the carrier/agent relationship. They deal mainly in email bulletins or the occasional phone call instead of face to face like years of the past. We are constantly making adjustments to the brave new world of modeling and price optimization, taking rate etc.
Back in the early 70’s or so I knew a mechanic who worked at the local JD dealership; and was well known for his mechanical acumen and ability. The factory man was there one day and asked him what was wrong with the such and such backhoe – he replied, “defective o-ring, that’s why they keep leaking.” No that’s not it the factory rep replied. The rep comes back around a couple hours later and asked the same question, got same response.
A week later they received a company bulletin that the o rings were defective.
My point being just because we are in the field doesn’t make us less intelligent; often the opposite is true.
May 25, 2016 at 9:25 am
Ron says:
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Funny how Agent has been telling me how great is it to be an independent agent and the limitless income potential. Then he will complain at the drop of a hat when he has to work a little harder just to make ends meet. Suck it up!
Now some of you business owners understand how employees feel when they are told they needed to take a pay cut or work more hours for the same pay so the company can stay in business. You can try to find another job, but there are few if any options.
Or you ask for a raise because you have been doing more and providing greater value to the organization, but the boss says no because he would need to charge the customers more which would lead them to take their business elsewhere.
Hey double Obama voter, suck it up. We can’t help it if your employer denied you a raise or he demoted you for lack of production. You failed at sales because you couldn’t produce. Sorry you hate Capitalism which produced the best economy the world has ever known. I hear Venezuela is nice this time of year. People are eating dogs and cats for food, the inflation rate is 700% and the revolution is about to start to kick the Commies out.
Hey Dufus, Obama has been trying real hard to bring this country to its knees, but alas for him, he has run out of time and Hilliary is not going to win. She very well may be in handcuffs by election time. The latest State Dept IG report is pretty devastating. She has painted herself into a corner and is just snarling every day. Your Progressive Socialism theories are just plain bad for this nation. You need to wake up from your extended nap and smell the coffee.
So, you are not going to address your inability to discern between 1st and 3rd person narratives? Did you at least learn something?
You said in the past the President Obama has made this a Socialist country. Are you backing down from that position? Are finally going to agree with me that one person, even the President, cannot change the country much no matter how hard they may try?
Please lay out MY Progressive Socialism theories, based on what I have posted, not how you have interpreted them.
Maybe you mean my theories to lower taxes, reduce government influence in the private lives of the citizens, eliminating government administration of health care, and reducing government waste. Those Progressive Socialist theories?
May 26, 2016 at 1:30 pm
agent14 says:
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Ron says:
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Ron says: “agent14,
What part of, “I would imagine that if I explained to the client that I could save them $10, but I would be out of business, 1 of 2 things would happen; 1. They would pay the extra $10, or 2. I would kick them out of my office. Who wants a client that does not value his/her agent?” was unclear?”
So Ron, you are making my point. So, you are confirming that you would not offer the lowest rate to a prospect, due to the best rate being with a company that would pay you below market commission. I thought ethics would make you offer the best rate, no matter what your compensation would be?
No worries, you made my point. Even you, at the end of the day, will do what is right for your and your family first. Thank you.
ron “I would imagine that if I explained to the client that I could save them $10, but I would be out of business….”
agent14 wrote “So, you are confirming that you would not offer the lowest rate to a prospect”
WRONG. that is not what he said. he clearly said he would offer both rates and explain to the client how it impacts him. he did not just offer the lowest rate without explanation.
please stop learning from agent’s reading comprehension classes. here, let me break this down for you.
ethical:
agent to customer: “company a premium is $200 and company b premium is $250. if you use company a, i only get $50 commission and i can’t live off that. if you use company b, i get $100 commission and i can still keep the doors open. what do you want to do?”
not ethical:
agent to customer: “the rate is $250. okay?”
That is not what I said, only how you interpreted my response. Read confused’s post. He hit the nail on the head.
Typical agent, likes to ask questions, but hates to answer them.
Let’s try this again.
1. Is this really happening in the marketplace or are you making up extremes to make a point?
2. Just give the client an opportunity to make a fully informed decision. Is that really so much to ask?
I answered your question directly, can you extend me the same courtesy?
Ron, those who are not agents, don’t work direct with an insured should not be making comments on what agents should do or not do. Every retail agent deals with customers every day of the week, solves their insurance problems, makes recommendations and sells the best program possible at the best rates possible from their line up. I show the customer every quote I get, make my recommendation, point out why one is better than another and most of the time, the customer accepts it. Ask the typical GEICO customer how they were advised. I’ve written several of them and I have asked them if they were advised about limits and coverages and they gave me a blank stare.
I will refrain from making comments on what agents should and should not do the day you refrain from making comments on what the companies should and should not do. Fair enough?
If that is what you are doing, then I commend you for being a good and ethical agent. Kudos to you.
Unfortunately, there are some agents that do not do that. Those are the ones to whom I was addressing my concerns.
If that is true, then you are supremely unqualified to comment on any blog about insurance carriers, predictive modeling, price optimization, underwriting, and pricing.
Ron, you are completely missing the point. Your discussion was not about what is going on in the market currently with regard to agent compensation. Your premise was, “ethically, you must present the prospect the cheapest rate no matter what the pay is…” When you admit that you in fact would not present a carrier’s rate, even if they were the lowest, due to inadequate compensation, what happened to your “Ethics Creed”? Admit it already, all agents have a squeal point low commission level that they have a right to not offer a certain policy if the pay is too low. Instead, you try to deflect. Geeze.
Markus, you said – When you admit that you in fact would not present a carrier’s rate, even if they were the lowest, due to inadequate compensation, what happened to your “Ethics Creed”?
That is not what Ron said!!
He clearly said he would offer both rates and explain to the client how it impacts him. You and Agent14 either are misunderstanding what Ron wrote or are intentionally twisting his words around. I hope it’s the former
confused and Ron, please help me understand Ron’s comments:
Rom originally stated in his now hidden comments paragraph due to low rating:, and I quote:
“I would imagine that if I explained to the client that I could save them $10, but I would be out of business, 1 of 2 things would happen; 1. They would pay the extra $10, or 2. I would kick them out of my office. Who wants a client that does not value his/her agent?”
So, when Ron said he would kick them out of his office if they preferred to by the cheaper policy for less commission to him, how did we misread this statement?
the misunderstanding was that you two said Ron admitted he wouldn’t offer the client the lowest commission/rate at all. the misunderstanding was not about what Ron would do if the client picked the lowest rate – simply that he would or wouldn’t present all the rates.
Ron’s statement clearly said he would offer both rates – this is what you just wrote so i know you agree with that.
markus wrote “When you admit that you in fact would not present a carrier’s rate”
agent14 wrote “So, you are confirming that you would not offer the lowest rate to a prospect”
You and markus said ron admitted he wouldn’t offer the lowest rate, yet Ron clearly said he WOULD offer all the rates and let the client decide.
now the real question becomes – are you just another Agent (continue to deny the misunderstanding and throw out some insults, or not respond at all) or are you a reasonable adult who can admit their mistake and hold a rational conversation? i hope it’s the latter
lonestar, there is no misunderstanding about who the real agents are on this forum and who the children are that would argue with a fence post and who are not real agents. They are a jealous lot who work for peanuts and hate every minute of it.
Red umbrella corporate folks: Are you listening?
Stop using them…that would send a bigger message than an article complaining about things, then having them as your # 1 market.
Ain’t gonna happen. Travelers showed the other guys that you can just hack away at compensation and the agents don’t respond by firing them and going to carriers who have higher commission rates. As long as interest rates and economic growth are both low, you can expect competitors to follow their lead to remain in the ballpark in the current environment.
Let’s hope your right but fight to keep your commission so we stay in business and can continue to offer valuable service the insurance companies won’t get from a boiler room. Flo was the first one to screw the agent without a doubt. Why the independent agent supports this company I do not know. Now they are selling other lines of business insurance. Seriously stop supporting companies like Progressive if your an independent agent.
California, Progressive is used by our agency only for problem drivers the others don’t want. They will write virtually anyone for a price. Try getting a family with three underage drivers with tickets and accidents written through the standards. Progressive is a necessary evil. By the way, they also have the highest standard of contingency and it takes about twice the premium volume to get contingency from them. We don’t worry about that and use them as little as possible.
Progressive cut commissions first and then other companies followed.
Progressive has never paid what the Independent companies have paid and their contingency requirement is astronomical. They aren’t interested in proper remumeration to their agents. Besides, they write more direct so they don’t have to pay any commission.
Weird, you always rip on the people who work on the insurer side as being terrible at sales, but you are essentially buying their product, and selling yours, yet constantly whine about not getting a good deal. That doesn’t seem consistent, especially for a world class salesman like yourself.
Wow this must be an underwriters magazine. Thanks UW for supporting your comrads genius. No we are not buying your product and selling ours that is stupid way to look at it. I am selling your product for you and making sure you don’t rip off the consumer and offer a fair product. I am a salesman yes but offer a service with my sale which involves a decent commission to pay my rent and expand my business so I can sell more insurance for you genius. By the way there has been zero inflation and infact deflation in almost all insurance prices in the last 30 years. Check the facts there soldier and quit cutting my commission. We got 10 to 20 % for 100 years depending on the product and sales volume and profitability and you genius want to run us out of business and pays us nothing basically. By the way your job is next to go if not first genius.
PS- for all the people that thumbs this down I am sure you work for the insurance company.
California Agent, you must be one of the few in California that is a Conservative. I commend you for hanging in there in the land of Brown, Boxer and Feinstein. Yes, UW is nothing more than a loud mouth Progressive Socialist who screams, rants, cusses all the time and would love agents to go away. The good news is that we are still here doing the best we can for our carriers, customers and handling the difficult issues we face every day.
I remember when Progressive had a 3 tiered commission schedule (Classic @ 15% new 10% renewal, Advantage @ 10% new 8% renewal and Ultra 6% new 4% renewal) which the agents could choose which tier they wanted to use. I haven’t checked lately but I believe I still have some 10% renewals coming in.
This was the ONLY time I’ve seen the Fed’s come in and tell the insurance companies that they couldn’t do something.
G, you must have been with Progressive a longer time than I have. We have been stuck with 10% for eons with them. Now, they have a new HOBT coming out and wanting us to sell it for less commission than our other HOBT carriers. Hey, got to get that companion credit for the Auto that they pay 10% on. What a deal.
We as agents pay the companies 85 – 90% and sometimes a bit more. What can we as agents and agency owners expect from an entity that we provide to them such a high amount of commissions?
Actually your clients pay the carriers, not you. Many States allow you to take a net quote and charge a broker fee – if you do not like the compensation quote net and sell “your service” to your client. Many agents “sell” the cheapest price and support the model of reduced commissions as a result.
They pay the carriers because I ask them to. They will pay whomever I ask them to pay.
atleast you confirmed you do not pay the premium.
This brings up an age old question: How much does it cost and agency or broker to produce business? How can fees overcome a reliance on a commission based product?
and to Martin, the carrier is the risk taker and should retain the majority of total premiums. Education of the parts that make up premium should be revisited by you soon.
Geek, you sound like a modeler geek of the first order. Of course the carriers have always kept the lion’s share of the premiums to pay losses and overhead. We don’t have a problem with that, but the carriers have been reducing the share even more than the past. We have to do a lot of their work for them and they sit in their ivory towers scheming on Predictive Modeling, Price Optimization and causing grief for the customer and the agent has to try to explain it to them. If we can retain a customer, we have proved our worth. It is hard work.
The real issue is whether brokers and Agents really know how much it costs them to place business both new and renewal. I believe the fee based approach does a better job of highlighting the cost of business production. Commissions are a bad barometer of estimating costs.
And for Martin, carriers retain the greater portion of premium due to them taking the risk. Understanding the components of what makes up premium is important and communicating that internally and externally is critical.
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Kind of chicken or egg situation.
Agents hold the cards? Seriously? Without insurance companies you have no product to sell. Insurers can, and some do, sell direct without independent agents. Careful with what you demand or you may find an increasing trend of eliminating independent agents in the years to come. You create a problem for the companies and solutions will be found and you may not like them. It’s all part of capitalism and entreprenuerism. Companies want to increase profits. You want to increase your profits. You cost companies increasing amounts of money due to your demands for higher commission percentages. Companies find cheaper way of reaching the customer.
Don’t get me wrong, agents deserve to be paid appropriately for their work. But, agent commissions are an expense to companies and reduce company profits.
Martini….facts – commissions have continuously gone down, as have contingency commissions, for the 40 years I’ve been in this game (I can show you the `paper’ if you’re in disbelief). At the same time, automation has allowed the companies to push many of their costs down to us – rating, printing of physical policies, etc., etc. etc….. I remember the first ROOM SIZE BOX Continental brought into our offices while pointing out how much $$ is was going to save us. If the carriers could get away with dealing with everyone directly over the internet – they would long ago have done it (at our expense). But, they can’t. `Find an increasing trend’??? THAT TREND has been around for years!
`You cost companies increasing amounts of money’??? Increasing? REALLY? Have you been in the business for 2 years? 3? What REALLY reduces company profits are BAD FIELD UNDERWRITERS (i.e. bad agents) and bloated operating expenses (which agents commissions represents an increasingly smaller percentage of).
Pete, I hate to tell you this, but good agents selling profitable business are in great standing with the markets. We had a record contingency return this year with all our markets because of low loss ratio, grew the volume and had great retention. This doesn’t keep the companies from reducing commissions on some policies and we do have to work harder for our income, but the last time I checked, 100% of nothing is still nothing. We do provide value to the customer and they don’t leave as long as we take care of business and move the customer when they get unjustified rate increases. The GEICO’s, Allstates of the world have a big turnover in customers with their practices.
Martin,
Start issuing your own policies and paying any associated claims, then. After all, as you say you are “the breadwinner” and you “hold the cards”.
Independent agencies and independent agency companies (like mine) have a symbiotic relationship and need to work together to meet both their mutual and individual goals. A person on either side that believes their side holds the power is both arrogant and uninformed.
From my personal experience (product manager) in talking to agency owners about their businesses, I think many of them focus too much on new business sales while neglecting retention and building a renewal book. To me this is short-sighted. Agencies that also put an emphasis (read: resources) on retention tend to have more stable, better performing books, and their compensation from their companies will reflect that.
It is expensive to have any (local) agency because of the cost of human capital. Someone has to be there to answer the phone. I guess 800 numbers are more (cost) efficient due to volume?
Rent and other overhead are not cheap either.
Correct Knowall. People that are not agency owners have no idea how expensive it is to operate an agency, produce new business, renew business in this economic climate. We have to keep growing in order to stay even with expenses that keep going up.
It is very expensive to run a retail agency. The agencies has lost more and more auto and small business to the internet. Thus less revenue to pay basic office expenses. The MGA’s need to step up to the plate and get the carriers to increase commissions. Our agency has a NO MGA program that is starting to work. If we do not get 15% commission we do not write it.
Florida Agent,
I wonder if your clients are aware that your agency has put its own interests above theirs.
You can spin it any way you want, but at the end of the day aren’t you suppose to find the best coverage at the lowest premium, regardless of your own compensation?
Tell that to the Doctors and lawyers too.
martin,
If we were on a medical or legal blog, I would. Happy now?
Wrong again “reading comprehension deprived”. You can spin your out of control nonsense all you want, but at the end of the day, you are still stuck in your cubicle spouting off, putting down good agents trying to make a living in this Obama economy. We are the Capitalists and you are the Socialist evident by your voting record the past two Presidential elections.
Wow Ron you must work for the ” on line” insurance companies and do not have a clue about running an insurance agency. Florida agent is 100 % correct and his point is you cannot dwindle us down to the point where you put the retail broker out of business. We need our 10 to 15 % to pay the rent. Having a boiler room of uneducated inexperienced employees in a cheap state or foreign country selling and servicing insurance may work for Geico and Flo but will eventually backfire on the insurance companies because insurance requires some personality to get the job done is all I can say. I guess your trying to save 5 % on your auto insurance so you must be the guy with 15/30 limits.
California Agent supporting my Florida Agent,
Wrong, I mean very wrong. I am a broker who also relies heavily on commissions.
Also, thank you for totally missing my point. As I said, there is nothing wrong with placing business with the carrier that pays the higher commission as long as your customer has complete information. If I value my agent, I won’t mind paying a higher premium, within reason, to help him/her stay in business.
For the record, I do use an agent for all of my business even though I could easily do it myself.
I would certainly pity your agent Ron. I bet you give him grief at every opportunity. Has he invited you to use someone else yet? I bet you argue with him at every renewal about your escalating premiums in wonderful NY state.
Agent,
Do you ever get sick of being wrong? It is the easiest money he makes.
Ironic that you speak of escalating premiums coming from TX.
Florida, the real money the companies make is on renewal. The agent might receive 15% for new and then it is reduced to 12% on the renewal, particularly on Auto. If there is a stand alone HO, they reduce commission on that if it doesn’t have a companion Auto. There are many ways companies figure out how to minimize their commissions to agents. Don’t hold your breath about MGA’s being on your side. You will be lucky to get 10% on the typical risk going through them.
Agent,
Did you miss where Florida Agent stated, “Our agency has a NO MGA program that is starting to work.”?
Then you wonder why I question your reading comprehension.
Quit with the reading comprehension comments. It screams whiny little kid. Adults correct people and call them wrong. Kids attach the “reading comprehension” remarks to call them wrong as a whole rather than directing one comment at a time.
Also, I notice your “reading comprehension” must be wrong, if I used your wording, but I’ll use adult wording.
You missed this entire conversation just about.
Agent is covering the standard market agreeing that insurance companies screw you on commission even more on renewal, and that MGA’s won’t help that. He is perfectly on topic and you missed that.
“MGA’s need to step up to the plate and get the carriers to increase commissions. ”
Makes sense to respond with:
“Don’t hold your breath about MGA’s being on your side. You will be lucky to get 10% on the typical risk going through them.”
He didn’t say anything that suggested he had reading comprehension skills, but you sure as hell did.
All those whiny little kids reading Insurance Journal.
Bob,
If he did not specifically reply to and address Florida Agent, I would agree with you.
I am sick of Agent not responding appropriately based on what is posted. If you were 1/4 as intelligent as you portray, you would not defend him so much. It makes you look uneducated.
Good one Bob. You had it exactly right about my meaning and Ron in full troll mode did not. Did you know that Ron tried selling one time briefly and quickly found out that he wasn’t suited for it? Probably found out he couldn’t close anything. Why are we not surprised?
Agent,
Of course you thought it was a good one, you are even less educated than Bob.
To clarify, I sold for 3 years and was the top producer of 5 for the 18 months prior to moving into a position in which I was able to actually learn about insurance instead of regurgitating talking points.
Maybe you should try that so you can speak intelligently about insurance pricing and underwriting.
*Had bad* Reading comprehension skills.
Ron, you are so stupid you don’t even realize that you could have done so much better being a producer than you have being a cubicle gnat. The sky is unlimited for a highly successful producer. Congratulations. You are the first I have ever seen that turned down sales in favor of an office job with a limited future. Hold out for that gold watch if you last that long.
Agent,
You complain when I say you only care about money, then criticize me for choosing a career that provides more professional satisfaction than money. Have I ever complained that I do not make enough to pay my bills, enjoy life, and save for retirement?
Have ever even considered the fact that money does not motivate everyone? I am much happier now. Isn’t that what is suppose to matter?
I am starting to get the impression that you are jealous. You live your life and I will live mine.
I find “value chain” an interesting description. I find most agents and brokers add very little “value” to the transaction, and typically just forward info along with little value added. Eventually, they will become too expensive and carriers will find ways around them to work directly with the customer.
The value is to the insured. They get advice on what limits are actually good for them, what coverages they need, etc. Companies with large risk departments probably don’t need this, but it could be pretty valuable to smaller companies, or companies where that money would be more profitable somewhere else. Using an agent can also help avoid taking advice from a company providing insurance which would have a conflict of interest.
Ron, I can’t help it if you didn’t have enough gumption or drive to stay in sales or even start an agency. I know a lot of agents in my association and if they were offered something like what you apparently have, they would turn it down in a heart beat. They rather enjoy being their own boss and creating their own success in this business. Yes, they have headaches from what is going on, paying the bills, dealing with companies, but it beats being stuck in a dead end job. By the way, the equity in an agency isn’t bad when an agent decides to retire. It beats the pension plans and Social Security all over the place.
you do realize insurance goes as far back as Babylonian times, right?
you do realize hat there are insurance related jobs that pay well which aren’t an agent role, right?
you do realize that if it wasn’t for all the non-agents in this industry, you wouldn’t have a job as an agent, right?
you do realize that there are things more important in life than money, right?
In this business, there are Hunters and there are Gatherers. The hunter is the one who finds customers (brings home the bacon) and develops them and then sells them the proper protection and the Gatherers are you and Ron who take orders and process business. Obviously, the lion’s share should go to the Hunters who actually do it. No shame in being a Gatherer, just don’t expect to make the same money and have the prestige.
you do realize that there are things more important in life than money, right?
I think carriers cutting commissions is short sited: There was a time not too long ago when the going rate was 20%.
Any IA can choose which auto company to push. Travelers and Progressive would write SO MUCH more business if they offered regular compensation. They have to fight to win it in my agency, and of course they lose all ties, or even if they are slightly better than the next company. My agency gets paid to produce through carriers that fully support my agency. Enough said.
I wonder how many times carriers have heard that comment (“raise your commission and we’ll send you more”). But it doesn’t happen. Progressive’s already proved it – #1 IA writer with a history of having the lowest commissions in the industry. Why change now?
Only because they are in every agency. If an agency writes two a month they are a super star. My agency writes about one a year.. They could give me 30% commissions and I wouldn’t write the class of customer they attract.
Carriers do not pay your commission, your clients do. If you make decisions regarding which carrier you place a policy based on the commission paid, you are not acting in the best interest of your client.
How about some ethics?
That’s right! My customers pay fees – fully disclosed up front. Either in lieu of company commission, or in addition to it. I’m continuously asked how I can keep my doors open operating on such a margin! Quit being sheep. You’re either worth what you’re paid, or your not. What insurance companies who directly sell on the internet are finding out is – an internet sale IS ALL ABOUT PRICE and retention is not good. I don’t sell PL unless it’s associated with a CL customer. Price is a consideration, but much less of one in that instance. Insurance carriers cutting commission is a long term trend that is NOT going to stop, so FOR ME, they better step up with the products, service and claim handling…. MY CUSTOMER depends on me to see that they do!
PETE,
Your post is spot on.
Kudos.
Pete, if you only sell Personal Lines associated with a CL customer, you must have a small volume of PL accounts. I have all my CL customers PL accounts, but PL can be lucrative as well. Referrals are also nice since they are 75% sold when they come through the door. By the way, PL also can result in a better contingency pay out. It has been very good to us.
Unless you have 5 million plus in combined premium in your agency, you are very small potatoes any way you look at it.
You must be new..
“I think carriers cutting commissions is short sited: There was a time not too long ago when the going rate was 20%.” Auto is currently a loser based on loss ratio. If it very easy to quote and not much work for agents to work on – why should you be paid 20% on that line? Your comments show no awareness of product lines loss ratio, the amount of value add you put in (A professional lines policy should be 15-20% as you have to look at manuscript forms and compare company A to company B). What value add do you do for auto other than filing in the accord?
@Fair playing field… Take the premiums that the Independent agencies and captive agencies have and then tell me who holds the cards here. Tell me that we couldn’t run a better business than most of these carriers. If we would combine our premiums and start our own company, that would leave the carriers with all the bad business that we didn’t roll to our new company. It’s quite simple to understand. We do hold the cards and I am confident that we could do a much better job then the carriers in which I see their mistakes every day. If they don’t start changing in the near future they will report to us. Us being the Independent agencies that do hold most of the cards. Many of you on here may have small agencies or none at all and if that is the case you wouldn’t understand.
martin wrote:
“If we would combine our premiums and start our own company…”
Don’t forget you’ll need at least two times your premiums for reserves, and then of course there’s your start-up costs like facilities, processing system, and employees. Not to worry, though. You can get money from investment bankers, and I hear they’re not meddling or demanding in the least.
Like I said, a person on either side that believes their side holds the power is both arrogant and uninformed.
@Fair playing field.. You may want to look up Appalachian underwriters filings or any other start up company to see what the commissioner requires. Most can be accomplished by a Bond. There are a few companies out there that have already did what I suggested and they are ran very professional and profitable. The problems with the carriers are…They are the ones that are arrogant. The buck starts with the agencies and producers.. our clients don’t know what carriers their with most of the time.. They will go with who we suggest.so it is we- the agents and agencies that ask them to pay whom.. The carriers don’t even know where the money comes from half the time.. It may be arrogant, but we really don’t need them in the long run. They need us more and that’s a fact.. They should start acting like it.
martin, you could just call yourself “Lemonade” and take over the market on practically no start up costs.
Martin,
There are plenty of quality service oriented carriers in the market whose business model is based on the independent agent model. Success in the long run requires finding these carriers and working together to add value to your clients that far surpasses any price advantage a direct marketing carrier may have. You will have the power over which carrier your client chooses until another agent who doesn’t belittle their carrier reps comes in with a better and cheaper proposal.
On a side note, you belittling other posters as being too unsophisticated or having too small an agency while thinking a carrier would not think of agency with $5 million in total premium as small potatoes is laughable. $5 million in premium with a single carrier MIGHT but probably doesn’t even put you in the top 10 in your region with most carriers.
If it wasn’t for the independent agency the commercial carriers would have the business that we provide to them each and every day. We are the ones fighting for our customers, fighting for competitive pricing for our customers and fighting to keep the business on our books. Every day it is a battle out in the field of independent agencies.
We should get better commission from them.
Martin, typical agent response – “we could do a much better job then the carriers” . Don’t forget to add the old tried & true UW/pricing model that every company should follow for guaranteed success – “Just lower your rates a little and increase commission and you’ll write more profitable business”.
I’m a little wiser than your typical agent. Quite frankly, I am a little insulted that you called me by that name. That would be like calling the school janitor the principal. Not everyone who sells insurance or is associated with it is only titled as agent. Believe me I know the cost of an actuary and that is also put in my plan of owning my own company. You can either be positive and see the model of a better company or you can follow the bad carriers over the cliff. If you can’t see the flaws in most of the carriers then your income must be quite low.
martin, I have been approached by a few of our markets offering a “Service Center” to handle customers (for a fee of course). Hey, they will take over the customer contact, process the business, make changes etc for an additional 3% of the commission so the agent will have more time to sell new business. Looks good in theory, but where they get in trouble is trying to explain rate increases and the inability to shop for another market for the customer if it needs to be moved. The customer just goes away. I have never been interested in this approach and prefer to maintain contact with the customer and look after them. Why would I want a company looking after my customer? They look after the company interest, first and foremost.
Did I miss something? I am against carriers in all shape and sizes. I think most are incapable of thinking. The companies are good, it’s the people who they hire that are annoying.
At some point agents have to decide that they are either in this business to earn a living, and not doing this for free. Carries are bent on maximizing their revenue at the expense of the agent earning less commissions, so why is it wrong for an agent to want to do the same thing, maximize income? The minute an agent no longer has a say on which carrier to present to the client, that is the minute that carriers no longer need agents. If an agent only presents the lowest price, a simple “Obamacare” like website can do that for consumers. An agent that looks out for himself, his family, his business future, by promoting the carriers that support his agency the most, while at the same time providing the customer with the product they need, is not any different than a Supermarket store manager that is being supported more by “Coca Cola” vs. Pepsi, and therefore the manager places Coca Cola’s products more prominently throughout the store and pushes that product over competitors. Another example: A police officer can choose to go to work for a neighboring city that is going to pay him more salary, what is wrong with him looking out for his family?
lonestar,
Right, wrong or indifferent, agents are not as respected and revered as they used to be. A big part of that are all of the news stories about agents placing business with certain carriers based on their reward (commission, contingencies, trips, etc.) instead of what is best for their clients. Could a company pay the highest commission and be the best option for the client? Absolutely.
How often do you show your clients your complete compensation from each carrier you represent? Do you show them all of the proposals or just the ones from the carriers who pay the higher commissions?
The retail store analogy does not work because, in most cases, insurance clients do not know all of the pricing options if an agent will only place business with certain carriers. When you go into a store, the prices are all there. Even if one product is more prominent, a diligent customer will still be able to easily find out the prices for the other brands and make a fully informed decision.
As I said before, the clients pay the commission, not the company.
The agent’s responsibility is to put the client’s interested before their own, period. It is called ethics.
So Ron, if Progressive reduces your commission to 1% and all other carriers pay 10%, and you quote autos for a client and Progressive has the best rate by $10 / year, are you going to promote Progressive to your clients at the peril of not being able to feed your family? What you fail to realize is this business has no ethics left in it. When is the last time your took an ethics course to see where it mentioned a carrier squeezing an agent to not offer home without the cross sold auto? Where in ethics does it say it is ok for a carrier to force an agent to sell “X” number of policies at reduced commission or “off with their head”? Companies have no ethics is the point. You call spout all you want about “ethics”, but guess what, if you do not do what is best for yourself, you will find soon you are working pro bono for these companies.
agent14,
Is this really happening in the marketplace or are you making up extremes to make a point?
I would imagine that if I explained to the client that I could save them $10, but I would be out of business, 1 of 2 things would happen; 1. They would pay the extra $10, or 2. I would kick them out of my office. Who wants a client that does not value his/her agent?
As long as you are completely transparent, I do not see an issue placing business with the carrier that has the higher premium and higher commission. Just give the client and opportunity to make a fully informed decisions. Is that really so much to ask?
I truly believe that someone who wants an agent understands it may cost more due to the commission. Otherwise, they are plenty of direct markets, especially for auto.
Regarding you concerns about companies. I agree that they can be short on ethics also. That, however, does not excuse the agent from being ethical and vice versa. We are not in third grade and cannot use “he did it first” as a reason for being unethical.
The problem with clients is they can’t make a full and informed decision. Christ , we have to manage the carriers and the customers. Neither know a damn thing about insurance and I’m starting to get the feeling that you don’t either. Sorry, but I’m a little tired of nugs. Does your Doctor ask you what type of prescription he should prescribe? I’m the professional here and if you want your cancer cured then do exactly as prescribed or go some where else.. Pretty simple.
So Ron, are you saying you would not sell Progressive to all your customers, if they are the lowest rate in your agency, even at 1% commission? If you could answer the question more directly please.
agent14,
What part of, “I would imagine that if I explained to the client that I could save them $10, but I would be out of business, 1 of 2 things would happen; 1. They would pay the extra $10, or 2. I would kick them out of my office. Who wants a client that does not value his/her agent?” was unclear?
If you really need a direct answer, no.
Will you now answer my questions?
@Martin:
So why aren’t you doing exactly what you’re going on and on about? What’s holding you back? You’re not all hat and no cattle, are you?
Get out there, man, and round up all of those independent agencies and get them to throw in with you. All they have to do is pledge their allegiance and assets to your new organization, and everyone gets a voice in all company decisions that’s commensurate with their investment, right?
Good luck.
As for the more sane agents, it’s only natural for companies to want to minimize expenses, but producers with better results should command better commissions. Ask your companies what retention and performance metrics they use to grade agency (and company) results, and continually compare those of your agency to the company total. If the company is not paying you for above average performance, or not doing well overall, you’ll know (and know more quickly) that it’s time to move your book.
Sincere good luck to you.
Thank you! It won’t be easy- but as early as this morning we had an investor meeting. I am not saying that it will be easy, because it won’t be. I am saying that after all this time of witnessing the bad moves that most carriers make there has to be a better way. The carriers (not all) seem to have forgotten that we agency owners and producers are a very important factor in the equation. Just listen to some of the carriers customer service reps. They surely are not taught how important we are. A little respect with the notion of where the money comes from goes a long way. My customers recognize my agency when asked who they are with. They have to dig around for their declaration page for the name of the carrier. The contract is with the carrier and client, but agency owners and producers are the light that drives them there. I think it’s pretty easy to see who holds the customer.. Good luck to you too!!
Martin – your idea is not new. Go look up Jack Schiff and Cincinnati Insurance Company. Jack was an agent and did exactly what you are saying back in the 1950s and was very successful. Understand their history and you may have success. Curious if anyone on here represents Cincinnati and if they now look at them as a company trying to squeeze their agents. They were founded by 100% independent agents. Good luck to you.
Martin wrote: “A little respect with the notion of where the money comes from goes a long way”.
Indeed, both companies and agents can always do a better job of respecting the customer, since that’s where the money truly comes from. They’re the ones that actually “hold the cards”.
A wise agent once told me when I was a young producer that – The customer may not always be right, but they are always the customer. No customer, no income. Treat them right, listen to them and they will likely stay. The relationship and trust means everything, something the online crowd will never enjoy.
Why would you get thumbs down on that comment? there must be some weirdos on here..
martin, I made a perfectly reasonable statement which is very true and the weirdo’s that you mentioned are the same ones who downthumb any comment I make on any subject because they are hateful idiots who have not one agent among them and are residing in their cubicles daily to troll this site. Did I mention they are Obama, Hilliary, Sanders supporters who believe in Socialism, can’t stand the success of entrepreneurs who believe in Capitalism and the American Dream. It would be nice if they all immigrated to either Cuba or Venezuela so they can see their preferred system in action.
Agent,
For a second there, I thought you were referring to me. Then I saw your second sentenced and realized you were not actually referring to me or anyone who has posted on this site.
Phew!!
Bravo!! And I hold them! Puzzle solved.
Not one comment here from the captive agent side? Allstate has unilateral control of our work agreement – which is laughably titled the “Independent Contractor Manual”. 26 years ago, we were paid 10% to 20% depending on product line. Homeowners used to be 20% new business and 10% renewals. After the mass termination and contract change in 2000 we were still paid 10% base on most products.
3 years ago, Allstate told an agency task force that our commission base would be lowered to 8%!!!! The task force raised a ruckus and Allstate held the commission cut to 9%. Since Allstate has no respect for whatever contract we are hired under, the 10% cut applies to all agents.
Oh sure, you can get back to 10%, but only if you sell 12 to 18 financial products a year, on 12 month moving basis.
It’s not hard to stay at 10% but it will be if they cut to 8%. A document leaked to agents several years ago revealed a presentation to the board of directors showing plans to cut commissions to 8% – that presentation was in 1998!!!
Allstate guy, we hear you. We have seen all the Allstate stories on the rift between management and agents and how the agents formed a guild/union to deal with them. Many Allstate agents would just love to be Independent instead. Are you in that category? They have been in trouble in several states for optimizing their premiums or taking unjustified rate increases like the recent Georgia case. It will be interesting what the investigation reveals instituted by the Georgia commissioner.
I was on that conference call that inadvertently invited me. I was an independent Allstate agent at the time. I wouldn’t have anything to do with them, they are worse than the KGB.
martin, most of the Allstate agents I know are “Captives”. Allstate usually only permits small town agents to have more than one market. In the cities, it is Allstate or the highway.
All you agents are fools if you do not realize that all the companies are watching what you are saying about commissions. Those that openly say that they will sell the lowest rate, no matter what the compensation is, are providing the nails to your own coffins to the carriers. As others have said earlier, if the agent cannot be enticed, cajoled, pushed to sell a certain product over another due to better compensation, etc, then why pay the agent anymore than the lowest paying company out there? Does anyone still have brain cells to realize this?
markus, interesting that you are calling agents “fools”. Are you a company man auditing this blog? No agent on this blog is advocating only selling the lowest rate no matter what the compensation is. I think you may be the fool. We pride ourselves on selling quality protection to our customers and yes, we do try to get the best price we can from our carrier line up. We also want to be compensated fairly by our markets. If we make companies money as shown on monthly statements we get, the companies need to reward us instead of cutting our commission.
Agent, I do not think you read Markus’s first sentence. “All you agents are fools IF you do not realize that all the companies are watching what you are saying about commissions.” The word “IF” is the important word here. No one was called a fool.
But I do agree, that all of us agents ARE fools, if we do not think we are being watched and studied by the carriers as to what we think and say about commissions in an open forum like this.
lonestar, we sincerely hope the company people are looking at the forum. Perhaps a few of them may scratch their head and say, wow, this is what they are thinking? What are we doing wrong? Is our policy of constant rate taking, optimization, re-tiering, re-scoring causing any problems? Is cutting the commissions on policies a wise thing to do?
Caveat Emptor
[Latin, Let the buyer beware.] A warning that notifies a buyer that the goods he or she is buying are “as is,” or subject to all defects.
If both the buyer and the seller are negotiating from equal bargaining positions, however, the doctrine of caveat emptor would apply
knowall, do you think the average insurance consumer knows about Caveat Emptor? Do you think good agents have to counsel and advise them about protection needs? Do you think the average GEICO order taker advises them well? I think not and that proves the value of agents to consumers.
Agent: no, what you said was actually my exact point, and thanks for clarifying. Although we are an agent for both the company and the insured, the insured certainly relies on us to do the right thing…since even very intelligent and storied people don’t understand insurance they still need us – white collar job security! We kind of step in place of the prospect/insured making sure they are benefiting from the right moves. Hence, the stress of being an agent!
If we pull together we win together; if we pull apart we fall apart — I’d hate to figure out the relationships between companies and agents at this juncture; what used to often be a family atmosphere is often not there anymore.
knowall, you are very correct. I can’t tell you how many times I have reviewed a potential clients current coverage, pointed out all the discrepancies in coverage and had them say to me, “they told me I had full coverage”. This happens more commonly with either Farmers or Allstate but others also do it. These people sell on watered down cheap coverage and people really think they are great until a claim happens. Being a good agent and doing right does pay dividends with referrals from satisfied customers.
You are right about the carrier/agent relationship. They deal mainly in email bulletins or the occasional phone call instead of face to face like years of the past. We are constantly making adjustments to the brave new world of modeling and price optimization, taking rate etc.
Back in the early 70’s or so I knew a mechanic who worked at the local JD dealership; and was well known for his mechanical acumen and ability. The factory man was there one day and asked him what was wrong with the such and such backhoe – he replied, “defective o-ring, that’s why they keep leaking.” No that’s not it the factory rep replied. The rep comes back around a couple hours later and asked the same question, got same response.
A week later they received a company bulletin that the o rings were defective.
My point being just because we are in the field doesn’t make us less intelligent; often the opposite is true.
Funny how Agent has been telling me how great is it to be an independent agent and the limitless income potential. Then he will complain at the drop of a hat when he has to work a little harder just to make ends meet. Suck it up!
Now some of you business owners understand how employees feel when they are told they needed to take a pay cut or work more hours for the same pay so the company can stay in business. You can try to find another job, but there are few if any options.
Or you ask for a raise because you have been doing more and providing greater value to the organization, but the boss says no because he would need to charge the customers more which would lead them to take their business elsewhere.
Sucks, doesn’t it?
Hey double Obama voter, suck it up. We can’t help it if your employer denied you a raise or he demoted you for lack of production. You failed at sales because you couldn’t produce. Sorry you hate Capitalism which produced the best economy the world has ever known. I hear Venezuela is nice this time of year. People are eating dogs and cats for food, the inflation rate is 700% and the revolution is about to start to kick the Commies out.
Agent,
At what point did I say this happened to me? I was writing in the 3rd person, not 1st person. Do you know the difference?
Really, go learn basic grammar and reading comprehension.
I can’t wait for Bob to swoop in to defend your lack of education. I cannot figure out who is less educated.
I really do not care what happens in other countries. If President Obama has made the USA Socialist, why are we not experiencing the same issues?
Hey Dufus, Obama has been trying real hard to bring this country to its knees, but alas for him, he has run out of time and Hilliary is not going to win. She very well may be in handcuffs by election time. The latest State Dept IG report is pretty devastating. She has painted herself into a corner and is just snarling every day. Your Progressive Socialism theories are just plain bad for this nation. You need to wake up from your extended nap and smell the coffee.
Agent,
So, you are not going to address your inability to discern between 1st and 3rd person narratives? Did you at least learn something?
You said in the past the President Obama has made this a Socialist country. Are you backing down from that position? Are finally going to agree with me that one person, even the President, cannot change the country much no matter how hard they may try?
Please lay out MY Progressive Socialism theories, based on what I have posted, not how you have interpreted them.
Maybe you mean my theories to lower taxes, reduce government influence in the private lives of the citizens, eliminating government administration of health care, and reducing government waste. Those Progressive Socialist theories?
Ron says:
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Ron says: “agent14,
What part of, “I would imagine that if I explained to the client that I could save them $10, but I would be out of business, 1 of 2 things would happen; 1. They would pay the extra $10, or 2. I would kick them out of my office. Who wants a client that does not value his/her agent?” was unclear?”
So Ron, you are making my point. So, you are confirming that you would not offer the lowest rate to a prospect, due to the best rate being with a company that would pay you below market commission. I thought ethics would make you offer the best rate, no matter what your compensation would be?
No worries, you made my point. Even you, at the end of the day, will do what is right for your and your family first. Thank you.
ron “I would imagine that if I explained to the client that I could save them $10, but I would be out of business….”
agent14 wrote “So, you are confirming that you would not offer the lowest rate to a prospect”
WRONG. that is not what he said. he clearly said he would offer both rates and explain to the client how it impacts him. he did not just offer the lowest rate without explanation.
please stop learning from agent’s reading comprehension classes. here, let me break this down for you.
ethical:
agent to customer: “company a premium is $200 and company b premium is $250. if you use company a, i only get $50 commission and i can’t live off that. if you use company b, i get $100 commission and i can still keep the doors open. what do you want to do?”
not ethical:
agent to customer: “the rate is $250. okay?”
agent14,
That is not what I said, only how you interpreted my response. Read confused’s post. He hit the nail on the head.
Typical agent, likes to ask questions, but hates to answer them.
Let’s try this again.
1. Is this really happening in the marketplace or are you making up extremes to make a point?
2. Just give the client an opportunity to make a fully informed decision. Is that really so much to ask?
I answered your question directly, can you extend me the same courtesy?
Ron, those who are not agents, don’t work direct with an insured should not be making comments on what agents should do or not do. Every retail agent deals with customers every day of the week, solves their insurance problems, makes recommendations and sells the best program possible at the best rates possible from their line up. I show the customer every quote I get, make my recommendation, point out why one is better than another and most of the time, the customer accepts it. Ask the typical GEICO customer how they were advised. I’ve written several of them and I have asked them if they were advised about limits and coverages and they gave me a blank stare.
Agent,
I will refrain from making comments on what agents should and should not do the day you refrain from making comments on what the companies should and should not do. Fair enough?
If that is what you are doing, then I commend you for being a good and ethical agent. Kudos to you.
Unfortunately, there are some agents that do not do that. Those are the ones to whom I was addressing my concerns.
You are supremely unqualified to comment on any blog about agents Mr. Troll.
Agent,
If that is true, then you are supremely unqualified to comment on any blog about insurance carriers, predictive modeling, price optimization, underwriting, and pricing.
Fair enough?
Ron, you are completely missing the point. Your discussion was not about what is going on in the market currently with regard to agent compensation. Your premise was, “ethically, you must present the prospect the cheapest rate no matter what the pay is…” When you admit that you in fact would not present a carrier’s rate, even if they were the lowest, due to inadequate compensation, what happened to your “Ethics Creed”? Admit it already, all agents have a squeal point low commission level that they have a right to not offer a certain policy if the pay is too low. Instead, you try to deflect. Geeze.
Markus, you said – When you admit that you in fact would not present a carrier’s rate, even if they were the lowest, due to inadequate compensation, what happened to your “Ethics Creed”?
That is not what Ron said!!
He clearly said he would offer both rates and explain to the client how it impacts him. You and Agent14 either are misunderstanding what Ron wrote or are intentionally twisting his words around. I hope it’s the former
markus,
Go back to 3rd grade, learn some reading comprehension, re-read all of my posts, then try again.
That goes for agent14 as well.
confused and Ron, please help me understand Ron’s comments:
Rom originally stated in his now hidden comments paragraph due to low rating:, and I quote:
“I would imagine that if I explained to the client that I could save them $10, but I would be out of business, 1 of 2 things would happen; 1. They would pay the extra $10, or 2. I would kick them out of my office. Who wants a client that does not value his/her agent?”
So, when Ron said he would kick them out of his office if they preferred to by the cheaper policy for less commission to him, how did we misread this statement?
you just moved the goalposts, so let’s back up.
the misunderstanding was that you two said Ron admitted he wouldn’t offer the client the lowest commission/rate at all. the misunderstanding was not about what Ron would do if the client picked the lowest rate – simply that he would or wouldn’t present all the rates.
Ron’s statement clearly said he would offer both rates – this is what you just wrote so i know you agree with that.
markus wrote “When you admit that you in fact would not present a carrier’s rate”
agent14 wrote “So, you are confirming that you would not offer the lowest rate to a prospect”
You and markus said ron admitted he wouldn’t offer the lowest rate, yet Ron clearly said he WOULD offer all the rates and let the client decide.
Does that help clear up the confusion?
now the real question becomes – are you just another Agent (continue to deny the misunderstanding and throw out some insults, or not respond at all) or are you a reasonable adult who can admit their mistake and hold a rational conversation? i hope it’s the latter
I think the adults have all left the playground, and only a few children are left playing…
lonestar, there is no misunderstanding about who the real agents are on this forum and who the children are that would argue with a fence post and who are not real agents. They are a jealous lot who work for peanuts and hate every minute of it.