Insurers Lobby for Clarity as Republicans Move to Repeal Obamacare

By | December 8, 2016

  • December 8, 2016 at 10:06 am
    DePolarBearables says:
    Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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    Want to keep the ACA? You say Republicans have no replacement plan?

    Here ya go…. responses to BOTH questions above follow;

    (remove the dashes before the link)

    —http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/07/paul-ryan-says-obamacare-is-entering-a-death-spiral.html?__source=yahoo%7Cfinance%7Cheadline%7Cheadline%7Cstory&par=yahoo&doc=104152137&yptr=yahoo

    —http://abetterway.speaker.gov/_assets/pdf/ABetterWay-HealthCare-Snapshot.pdf

    • December 8, 2016 at 2:01 pm
      InTheMiddle57 says:
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      These are just sketchy ideas. The opposition has had seven years to formulate an implementation ready alternative to the ACA. At this point they should have complete market ready plan ready for distribution to all major stakeholders such insurance companies and healthcare providers as well as concise reading materials for the general public. The concerns that the ACA sought to addresshave been around for sometime, why didn’t the naysayers seek to solve the problems before Obama?

      • December 8, 2016 at 3:39 pm
        Agent says:
        Hot debate. What do you think?
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        I don’t think the American people asked the Democrats to come up with the disaster they force fed the people and lied repeatedly about. Liberals have sought to control healthcare in this country for decades and in Obama, they finally got control. Now that it is a disaster, they say to Republicans to clean up their mess and do it instantly. Nancy Pelosi Galore to borrow DePolar’s description said – we have to pass it to see what is in it. She also said she would pole vault over the fence to get it done. Just look at what Liberals did to the greatest country in the world. Disaster from day one.

        • December 8, 2016 at 3:58 pm
          Ron says:
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          Agent,

          You said, “Now that it is a disaster, they say to Republicans to clean up their mess and do it instantly.” False. It is the Republicans that have been telling us that they have a plan and only need to win the White house and maintain their Congressional majority to fix the PPACA.

          Now we have to wait for them to formulate their plan?

          • December 8, 2016 at 4:49 pm
            Agent says:
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            Not only have I said it was a disaster, anyone with a brain could see it was a disaster. To unwind something lawyers drafted with 2,700 pages and thousands of amendments, built in taxes is not done instantly, but the demanding liberals seem to think it can be done instantly. Ron, you and the American people were sold a bill of goods soiled by Progressives. Legal scholars could not figure out how to read it or interpret it. That is really what they were counting on so they could then move in with your pet “Single Payer” scheme. Then came along the phenomenon of Trump who upset the applecart. The applecart is upside down in the ditch with no wheels on it.

          • December 9, 2016 at 8:11 am
            Ron says:
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            Agent,

            You either totally missed my point or displayed poor reading comprehension skills. I’ll let you decide which.

            I did not say it is false that it is a disaster. I said it is false that the people are saying the Republicans need to clean it up instantly. The Republicans have been telling us that they have a plan, but now they don’t. What have they been doing for the past 6+ years? Creating outlines?

            I don’t expect them to fix the mess instantly, but they should have a bill ready to go for President Trump to sign so we can start the process. Every day we wait for their bill, is another day we have to live with the PPACA and its negative effects.

            For someone who has spoken so vehemently against the PPACA, I would expect you to be the biggest complainer that the Republicans do not have a replacement ready to go. Good job holding your party accountable.

        • December 8, 2016 at 5:35 pm
          InTheMiddle57 says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          You missed my entire point. My point is the opposition has had seven years to formulate an implementation ready alternative to the ACA. They should have complete market ready plan ready for distribution to all major stakeholders such insurance companies and healthcare providers as well as concise reading materials for the general public. Where is the complete market ready plan? It is go time, where is the plan?

          • December 9, 2016 at 8:51 am
            Bill says:
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            I would argue that Republicans actually had 16 years or more to formulate a plan to address skyrocketing healthcare costs. 8 years of Bush’s term in office and 8 years of Obama’s term. I believe they had control of congress through much of both President’s terms.
            Healthcare and health insurance costs have been rising at a rapid pace for at least 20 years. At
            least mine have.

          • December 9, 2016 at 9:53 am
            DePolarBearables says:
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            @Bill; why stop at 16 years?

            Why not also go back into the Clinton years? hmmm?

          • December 10, 2016 at 8:17 am
            DePolarBearables says:
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            Your criticism that Republicans should have complete plans ready to go is stupid and lame and made for the sake of complaining. No one would do so if they know the future is uncertain. No one would do so if they knew Obama would veto such a plan or the liberal media would LIE about the validity of such a plan right before an election.

            Troll.

          • December 10, 2016 at 2:41 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            “I’m getting to it, don’t worry,” the media mogul said. “On the first day of presidency, on my very first day I plan to repeal Obamacare so hard that it’ll make his ancestors in Africa shiver with awe. I mean, I am going to take that piece of legislation and wipe my a** with it. That’s how much I dislike Obamacare and what I think about it. By the way, that’s also how I feel about Ted Cruz, but that’s not the point right now,” Trump said jokingly, causing Stephanopoulos to laugh.

            “Seriously though,” the billionaire businessman continued, “that’s what I plan on doing. And then first thing in the morning on day two, I’m going to replace it with a much better service that’s genuinely going to take care of every poor person in the United States. I’m talking daily food rations, clean clothes, a place to spend the night, possibly new jobs, it’s all going to be awesome, it’s going to be utopia. I’m going to make it so good that people are going to want to become homeless just to qualify for Trumpcare. And by the way, that’s what I’m going to call it. A huge, flashy neon sign is going to be placed above the entrance to every Trumpcare facility across the country. I want people to know who made it possible for them to have a better life.”

          • December 10, 2016 at 2:54 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            “I’m getting to it, don’t worry,” the media mogul said. “On the first day of presidency, on my very first day I plan to repeal Obamacare so hard that it’ll make his ancestors in Africa shiver with awe. I mean, I am going to take that piece of legislation and wipe my a** with it. That’s how much I dislike Obamacare and what I think about it. By the way, that’s also how I feel about Ted Cruz, but that’s not the point right now,” Trump said jokingly, causing Stephanopoulos to laugh.

            “Seriously though,” the billionaire businessman continued, “that’s what I plan on doing. And then first thing in the morning on day two, I’m going to replace it with a much better service that’s genuinely going to take care of every poor person in the United States. I’m talking daily food rations, clean clothes, a place to spend the night, possibly new jobs, it’s all going to be awesome, it’s going to be utopia. I’m going to make it so good that people are going to want to become homeless just to qualify for Trumpcare. And by the way, that’s what I’m going to call it. A huge, flashy neon sign is going to be placed above the entrance to every Trumpcare facility across the country. I want people to know who made it possible for them to have a better life.”

            Check and mate, who nex?

          • December 12, 2016 at 8:49 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            right wing censorship

            “I’m getting to it, don’t worry,” the media mogul said. “On the first day of presidency, on my very first day I plan to repeal Obamacare so hard that it’ll make his ancestors in Africa shiver with awe. I mean, I am going to take that piece of legislation and wipe my a** with it. That’s how much I dislike Obamacare and what I think about it. By the way, that’s also how I feel about Ted Cruz, but that’s not the point right now,” Trump said jokingly, causing Stephanopoulos to laugh.

            “Seriously though,” the billionaire businessman continued, “that’s what I plan on doing. And then first thing in the morning on day two, I’m going to replace it with a much better service that’s genuinely going to take care of every poor person in the United States. I’m talking daily food rations, clean clothes, a place to spend the night, possibly new jobs, it’s all going to be awesome, it’s going to be utopia. I’m going to make it so good that people are going to want to become homeless just to qualify for Trumpcare. And by the way, that’s what I’m going to call it. A huge, flashy neon sign is going to be placed above the entrance to every Trumpcare facility across the country. I want people to know who made it possible for them to have a better life.”

      • December 8, 2016 at 6:03 pm
        DePolarBearables says:
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        Yes, those are sketchy plans.

        Want the details? Write to Ryan. He has plenty of details that cannot be put into a new article.

        The plans WERE formulated over several years, but weren’t pulled together until the POTUS General election campaign started. And there is STILL some disagreement over the final approach.

        There were NO detailed plans DISCLOSED during the last few years because Obama would VETO anything brought to a vote in Congress and passed. So, why do you bother complaining about ‘the Republicans lack of PUBLISHED detailed plans’ when they knew ‘POTUS O’ would promptly VETO them? That is simultaneously lame and ‘a flame’.

        • December 9, 2016 at 2:37 pm
          Don't Call Me Shirley says:
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          They also knew that POTUS would veto any bill to repeal ACA, yet that didn’t stop them from voting 60 times to repeal it, knowing that they were wasting time and the taxpayers’ money. So much for fiscal responsibility!

          • December 9, 2016 at 5:33 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            Exactly DCMS. And now, the taxpayers are going to be spending $1M a day because Melania, the girl-on-girl nude model and speech plagiarizer, is too good for the White House.

          • December 9, 2016 at 7:16 pm
            Don't Call Me Shirley says:
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            Can you imagine if Michelle Obama had been staying in a NYC high-rise, costing $1M a day for security?

          • December 9, 2016 at 8:42 pm
            DePolarBearables says:
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            Wrong. That tactic put the Dems on record as supporters of ACA, and it led to many of them being rejected in their next re-election bids. Bravo, Republicans! Well played!

          • December 9, 2016 at 8:43 pm
            DePolarBearables says:
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            Psst; if you’re concerned about WASTING TAXPAYERS MONEY, you’d agree to repeal ACA, or never pass it. Which is it? You can’t have both, unless you’re a hypocrite.

          • December 12, 2016 at 8:50 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            right wing censorship

            Exactly DCMS. And now, the taxpayers are going to be spending $1M a day because Melania, the girl-on-girl nude model and speech plagiarizer, is too good for the White House.

          • December 12, 2016 at 5:32 pm
            Bob says:
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            “right wing censorship

            Exactly DCMS. And now, the taxpayers are going to be spending $1M a day because Melania, the girl-on-girl nude model and speech plagiarizer, is too good for the White House.”

            Talking about women in a degrading way seems to be your thing, as long as it is a republican, and you’re a democrat, it’s ok amirite?

            Make it about concept, not gender and girl on girl lesbian phobia you appear to have. See what I did there? Maybe you like eating your own style of attacks eh?

          • December 13, 2016 at 8:42 am
            Ron says:
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            Bob,

            Captain Planet was referencing one woman, not all women, based on her actual actions.

          • December 13, 2016 at 2:17 pm
            Bob says:
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            “Ron says:

            Bob,

            Captain Planet was referencing one woman, not all women, based on her actual actions.

            And for this one person, he made a blanket comment about their whole personhood, with degrading comments far worse than Trump, and you are defending it. It had everything to do with mocking what I said it did.

            I’m well aware of the context kid. I don’t need your elaboration. You aren’t special, and you don’t have the new way of looking at things. How many times do I have to tell you this?

          • December 13, 2016 at 2:35 pm
            Ron says:
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            Bob,

            I know you hate it when I prove that I am more intelligent than you. That is why you need to resort to insults.

          • December 13, 2016 at 3:19 pm
            Bob says:
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            “Ron says:

            Bob,

            I know you hate it when I prove that I am more intelligent than you. That is why you need to resort to insults.”

            And I know you feel the need to feel more intelligent and better morally than other people, that’s why you make comments like these when I condemn your clearly inept and immoral actions and state your weaknesses.

            I will reiterate, kid: You don’t know what you’re talking about.

            This guy has been calling everyone here bigoted against gays, racist, etc, serious accusations he cannot back up. And here he is, using that, tongue in cheek mocking people based on lesbianism, in their history girl on girl pictures, in an extremely condescending way linked to her gender and sexual orientation, and now it’s about you is it? That you just prove how much smarter than me you are?

            And it isn’t about common decency? Whenever it supports your preconceived notions I suppose, but I know well your weakness, and my generation. It is precisely what I just put. You are not special. You are not less bigoted than the generations before you. You have not found the new spin. How many times do I have to say this?

            What this guy just did and said was wrong.

            Do you disagree?

          • December 13, 2016 at 3:26 pm
            Bob says:
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            Also:

            You’re so smart that you have changed your Reagan comments slightly recently. Did you think I didn’t notice?

            You changed it from: Reagan engaged in Keynesian economics.

            To: Keynesian economics went through during his tenure, because he didn’t compromise, with a democrat congress which you said you could prove was more willing to compromise with him than the republicans congress was for Clinton in 1995. Did you even know about the 1993 plan by the way? That was my evidence that republicans are willing to compromise. They inserted a mandate, because Clinton wanted it, and Clinton still declined the plan, and didn’t pass a healthcare plan during his tenure. I believe, it is because he didn’t want a plan that republicans made giving them credit. Personally. But back on topic, this shows that Clinton asked for a mandate, and he got it.

            Reagan asked for spending cuts, and I showed that. And he didn’t.

            So clearly, I am correct on this, and I know more about it than you do. You have not brought up any of these bills, and you modified your statements about Reagan after I did. I’ve evolved my position and evidence, whereas you have just evolved on your way of calling Reagan Keynesian when it comes to economics, as a result of me I might add, showing my superior intellect, has affected you, hasn’t it?

            ;-)

            Ron, the reason I do better than you on these things isn’t I am more intelligent. All humans have their own intelligence. I only just mocked you on this because of you doing it to me.

            I think you need some leniency here. You wouldn’t have brought that up if you didn’t have a confidence issue and I admit I feel sorry for you. But my strength, is in being willing to look into things more, and needing to find the truth. I will flip. When I receive enough evidence.

            This is why I said what would cause me to flip. And I don’t stop researching once I find my conclusion. I keep searching, as is evident by my newer evidence that I just listed by item recently.

            Stop mocking my intellect, when I know for a fact you have not seen anyone else do this.

          • December 13, 2016 at 3:32 pm
            Bob says:
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            Also:

            I don’t feel threatened by you. That is not why I shut you down.

            Ideals need to be shut down when they are damaging. Planet’s are damaging, so I’m shutting them down.

            Your comment in defense of him was by extension, damaging. So that needed to be shut down.

            It’s that simple. Your ideals are what I’m after. Doing what is right and human is what I support.

            You as a person…I don’t care if you’re smarter than me or not.

            And I don’t think God does either.

          • December 13, 2016 at 3:43 pm
            Bob says:
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            “Bob,

            Captain Planet was referencing one woman, not all women, based on her actual actions.”

            So to put this back on you here, I should have said this to begin with:

            Do you believe then, that on an individual basis, I should talk about Ellen’s Girl on Girl action?

            Do you believe I should start talking about how wrong it is for these women to do this in the front of magazines? You sound like my mother, the type of people and Catholics you don’t like, and I don’t like either.

            It’s funny isn’t it? Suddenly now it isn’t bigoted or wrong to say it…

            Because he’s a liberal who claims to be against it?

            Except in practice apparently as long as it’s one person’s actions…Isn’t that worse? Going after a person directly, instead of saying it about a group? Isn’t the reason it is bad about saying it about a group, is that this makes it eventually go to individuals? Does group justice matter more to you than the individual? Ben Shapiro talks about this. The individual gets lost in social justice. Did you just reveal you are ok with harming individuals? Do you realize how much cruelty you just showed?

            My God Ron, and all because you wanted to be able to say your intellect was great? Or did you really want to defend this action, so long as it is an individual attack and not a group?

            That seems like a huge weakness either way. You tell me what the goal is. You tell me who matters. Does Melania? Is the reason she doesn’t matter because she is a part of a group that you believe is evil? (Wealthy). Do you believe God allows you to label a group and mistreat them, so long as it is the group you don’t like? How are you different than people that you believe do this to gays? (though vastly less people than you think) These are the true tough questions you should ask yourself.

            Being tolerant doesn’t come naturally. It comes through self question. Not questioning others all the time. Hold yourself accountable Ron.

          • December 13, 2016 at 3:43 pm
            Ron says:
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            Bob,

            You really are just full of yourself, aren’t you?

            Just because you interpreted my previous comments regarding the fact that Keynesian principles were utilized during President Reagan’s term to expedite the economic recovery, does not mean I changed. It means you finally understand what I have been saying from the get go. If can quote where I ever said that President Reagan engaged in, wanted or even supported Keynesian principles, I will never post on IJ again.

            You said, “You as a person…I don’t care if you’re smarter than me or not.

            And I don’t think God does either.”

            This is by far the smartest thing you have ever posted.

            Now will you stop trying to pull your superiority crap on me and others and “shut us down”?

            Take your idle threats and just go away.

          • December 14, 2016 at 3:13 pm
            bob says:
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            “Bob,

            You really are just full of yourself, aren’t you?”

            See your comment about being smarter than me. What did I say back? I said I don’t care if you are. But you do. And you care if you’re a better person than me as well.

            “Just because you interpreted my previous comments regarding the fact that Keynesian principles were utilized during President Reagan’s term to expedite the economic recovery, does not mean I changed.”

            I did not misinterpret. You definitely changed. Your ego is preventing you from seeing this. You have finally realized I could be right, and I see it. So you have used a different path, that the reason Reagan couldn’t bring down spending with democrats is because he wouldn’t compromise. Originally you specifically said he increased spending. You specifically gave links and said that was Reagan who approved it. This is definitely a change.

            “It means you finally understand what I have been saying from the get go. If can quote where I ever said that President Reagan engaged in, wanted or even supported Keynesian principles, I will never post on IJ again.”

            Don’t play games with me. You do this a lot. We had the same debate again and again, and you constantly asked why Reagan didn’t decrease spending, and why the 1995 republicans didn’t. I always said the democrats got in the way, and you always said they spent just as bad.

            “You said, “You as a person…I don’t care if you’re smarter than me or not.

            And I don’t think God does either.”

            This is by far the smartest thing you have ever posted.”

            Well, there’s hope for you yet. But you started that intellectual battle just now…So does that make your original comment bad by your own admission then?

            “Now will you stop trying to pull your superiority crap on me and others and “shut us down”?

            I will not stop trying to prove you wrong, and that is not superiority. You just used superiority crap, and I shut THAT down.

            “Take your idle threats and just go away.”

            Really, my “idle threats” shows your extremism. When I have told people to stop using racist terminology, it’s a threat, and when Planet does it, it’s something you defend, because he has good intentions eh?

            They aren’t threats. It’s demanding people behave like humans, of which you do the same. If someone came on here, and I believe you have done this, and called all homosexuals perverts (which I believe Agent actually did do) you would definitely demand they stop. Would you not?

            I don’t tolerate bigoted assaults. I don’t threaten, though I certainly am willing to fight. As are you.

            And you seem to think you’re so much better than everyone, that when you do it, it’s just kind hearted greatness, and when I do it, I’m a fascist tyrant threatening people for control? I’m exaggerating of course, but you get the point.

            Get lost kid. I think it’s become clear your motives are you. Not others. And how special you feel.

          • December 14, 2016 at 3:22 pm
            bob says:
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            ““It means you finally understand what I have been saying from the get go. If can quote where I ever said that President Reagan engaged in, wanted or even supported Keynesian principles, I will never post on IJ again.””

            Have to emphasize something here:

            I just proved that republicans compromise and give sections of democrat ideals, which to this day have been used against them (mandate) while you keep saying that republicans do not compromise and that’s why Reagan couldn’t get reduced spending.

            In the past I have told you that republicans have held their ground, and you blaming them for the democrats who refuse to pass the lower spending is not fair.

            You then say I don’t know that republicans would reduce spending, because they haven’t even proposed it in a credible way. By default, if you believed this, you DEFINITELY when you used Reagan links to show he increased spending, thought he proposed it. This is not an “if”. This means you thought there was a fringe republican section that was causing this.

            Otherwise, you simply would have said “well, democrats are blocking it, my bad, I’ll just vote them in”. Somewhere along the line, you think republicans won’t do it. It’s the only logical conclusion considering our arguments.

            And I suspect it is much the same as the republican bills, that you thought didn’t exist, and you admitted about the $5,000 debit card you had no idea such a plan existed, and you might be willing to support it. That was over a year ago, it would be hard to find. Then you blamed republicans for not selling it.

            I imagine, you thought reduced spending bills had not been proposed by republicans, or that they were somehow not bi partisan. The same moral or idealistic route that you take with regards to politics. So you either did false equivalency, or you blamed republicans for not being bi partisan, or, you thought republicans actually did increase spending. Those are the only options. In regards to Reagan, it wouldn’t make sense for false equivalency unless you believe the last. In regards to the second, it wouldn’t make sense, because being bi partisan would actually make republicans increase spending, which you don’t want. So the only logical conclusion is either you’re an idiot, and don’t realize this, OR you actually thought republicans were the source of the spending. So again: You thought Reagan, and republicans during his Tenure supported spending. And now you’re saying you never thought that? And you always thought it was just that they were too extreme and democrats wouldn’t allow cuts? Well, you like cuts, so you would logically blame democrats! You can’t blame republicans for wanting to cut too much, and then say democrats who increase spending, are for spending increases! It’s insane!

          • December 14, 2016 at 3:23 pm
            bob says:
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            Should say, democrats are not for spending increases.

            Republicans rarely get what they want. That is the fault of democrats, and it’s time you understand that. They don’t allow republican ideals to go through.

            Will you finally then say, that republicans are for spending cuts then?

            If you always thought this, then you should be perfectly willing to say it.

            Will you?

          • December 15, 2016 at 1:10 pm
            Ron says:
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            Bob,

            You said, “I did not misinterpret. You definitely changed.” PROVE IT!!

            You said, “You have finally realized I could be right, and I see it.” I NEVER said you were wrong.

            You said, “Originally you specifically said he increased spending. You specifically gave links and said that was Reagan who approved it.” PROVE IT!!

            You asked, “Will you finally then say, that republicans are for spending cuts then?” I never said they were not for spending cuts, only that spending has actually increased during years where they held the White House and majorities in both Houses of Congress.

            Either be prepared to quote me when stating that I said/posted something or do not make the accusation.
            Maybe you are just not intelligent enough to understand my nuanced points.

          • December 15, 2016 at 11:03 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            more right wing censorship

            Exactly DCMS. And now, the taxpayers are going to be spending $1M a day because Melania, the girl-on-girl nude model and speech plagiarizer, is too good for the White House.

    • December 8, 2016 at 2:17 pm
      Agent says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      Perhaps the industry shouldn’t have jumped on the Obamacare train early on since the light at the end of the tunnel ended up being the train and they got run over. All I have heard from Blue Cross was that they were “all in” for the ACA. Oops! Our losses are staggering and we can’t make it unless the government bails us out. Wonder why the exchanges have had issues in the subsequent years of this disaster. A law with 2,700 pages and thousands of amendments written by serial liars and passed in the most partisan way will not survive. It won’t be fixed overnight, but the process will begin and carriers had better start coming up with private market plans and soon.

    • December 8, 2016 at 4:14 pm
      Sally Ann Fannymaker says:
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      Sorry polar bear, but white papers are not legislation. Paul Ryan released a 37-page white paper with zero details for his healthcare replacement.

      • December 8, 2016 at 6:08 pm
        DePolarBearables says:
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        Sorry Salamander, but the detailed legislation won’t be revealed until it is finalized. For one thing, it prevents libbies from LYING about what is in the bill to the general public, causing more work for the Republican authors, to explain why the libbies are lying or distorting the facts. For another, there is NO REASON the public needs to know anything about the bills until after January 20, 2017.

        Kinda sounds like what Nancy Pelosi Galore once said, hunh? How do you like that?

    • December 13, 2016 at 12:09 pm
      Agent says:
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      DePolar, am I the only one that noticed the title to this story – Insurers “Lobby” for Clarity as Republicans move to repeal Obamacare? I bet that insurance lobby is working overtime since 11-8-16 after they bought into the last nearly 7 years disaster. Lobbyists have had their own way in DC for a long time. Time to send them packing.

  • December 8, 2016 at 10:10 am
    DePolarBearables says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    There has been great confusion caused by the Liberal Mainstream Media over the past few years about the repeal and replace plan of Republicans, and the aspects of ACA that were good and should be retained.

    The ACA did not originate the provision to cover existing conditions; those were used or discussed many years / decades before ACA, in high risk pools.

    The ACA did not originate the ‘fail to launch; coverage of young adults until age 26 on their parents plans. That existed before in limited instances and in suggestions for PRIOR economic recessions when adult children weren’t able to find jobs.

    • December 8, 2016 at 1:49 pm
      InTheMiddle57 says:
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      No one is confused about the fact that the ACA did not originate coverage for pre-existing conditions. That fact is the ACA implemented the coverage across the board. The same hold true for coverage for young adults. These provisions along with the elimination of life time caps are popular provisions that most people want to retain.

      • December 8, 2016 at 6:10 pm
        DePolarBearables says:
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        Sure, people are confused because there are MULTIPLE instances of liberally biased writers attributing those two features to ACA, instead of telling the truth. Low information voters don’t know what experienced insurance pros know.

  • December 8, 2016 at 12:05 pm
    ExciteBiker says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    The GOP has had seven years yet no alternative plan has been put forth aside from vague assurances such as what is outlined in the .pdf ‘Snapshot’ linked here. The “plan” is rife with doublespeak such as “protecting Medicare” when the actual idea is to ‘voucherize’ and destroy it. I especially note ideas like “conscience protection” for health care providers: yet again the theocrats are much more interested in attacking women’s rights rather than actually fixing health care. Much of the rest of the list looks a heck of a lot like Obamacare; that’s no surprise, since most of the ideas in the PPACA were originally proposed by the right-wing Heritage Foundation.

    What the Republicans HAVE come up with is a way to turn health care into another political football. They have proposed repealing the PPACA on day one but delaying the date such repeal takes effect until 2019. The hope is that they can avoid taking any electoral punishment in the 2018 midterm election this way and also turn the health care debate into a 2020 campaign issue.

    There are no real ideas, no real strategy. They are yet again playing political games with people’s lives. Don’t buy the hype. The party of “no” has no plan.

    Why not simply rename the PPACA “TrumpCare”? That way they don’t have to change a thing and can claim a miraculous victory. Donald likes putting his name on things, so I’m sure he’d be on board–so long as the plan covers the expense of painting your face orange every day and surgically stretching your scalp. Perhaps we ought to add skin thickening coverage to prevent any sudden outbreaks of tweet-itis.

    • December 8, 2016 at 2:04 pm
      InTheMiddle57 says:
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      True that. Peoples lives and ability to plan for the future are in the balance.

      • December 8, 2016 at 6:13 pm
        DePolarBearables says:
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        Hyperbole won’t work this time, libbies. Give it up before you completely destroy any credibility you may have.

        Peoples lives have been severely, adversely impacted by ACA. Repeal is one step in recovery. The next step is a GRADUAL implementation of many procedures to solve problems that were NOT addressed by ACA or were CAUSED by ACA.

        • December 8, 2016 at 10:41 pm
          DePolarBearables says:
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          Here’s how to “plan for the future”:

          Pay attention to what the Republicans in charge of Congress tell you directly instead of what libbies or the Liberal Mainstream Media tell you that they said.

          Also; please tell us now how ANYONE knew what to expect in the ACA, and how they could plan for it when Nancy Pelosi Galore famously told everyone that they’d “have to wait until they passed it (ACA) to find out what’s in it”…

        • December 9, 2016 at 7:19 pm
          Don't Call Me Shirley says:
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          Hyperbole; do you mean like the so-called “War on Christmas”? Oh no! Somebody said “Happy Holidays”! That constitutes all-out war!

  • December 8, 2016 at 1:20 pm
    Captain Planet says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    “I will repeal and replace it on day one, believe me. I’ll replace it with something great. You’ll love it. Trust me.” – Drumpf

    Why believe anything this guy says when it’s been proven he lies over 70% of the time?

    ExciteBiker wins IJ today. Congratulations!

    • December 8, 2016 at 6:15 pm
      DePolarBearables says:
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      Why believe it?

      Because Republican Congressmen aren’t liars and socialists like Dems.
      They have a multi-faceted plan being fine-tuned now. See the plan outline Ryan provided yesterday on CNBC.com.

      • December 8, 2016 at 10:43 pm
        DePolarBearables says:
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        Further, I’ve heard enough of the details of the replacement many months ago to know they ain’t blowin’ smoke… like Obama, Gruber, Emmanuel, Jarret, Pelosi, and Reid did in 2009.

        • December 9, 2016 at 8:14 am
          Ron says:
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          DePolarBearables,

          And those details would be…

          Donald Trump won the election and Republicans maintained their majorities in Congress. It is safe to reveal them.

          Or, have you just been lying to us that you know the details?

          It has to be one or the other.

          • December 9, 2016 at 9:55 am
            DePolarBearables says:
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            @Ron; to borrow a phrase from Nancy Pelosi Galore: “you’ll just have to wait…. because you have NO RIGHT to know.”

    • December 9, 2016 at 9:50 am
      Captain Planet says:
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      Right Wing multi-clicks

      “I will repeal and replace it on day one, believe me. I’ll replace it with something great. You’ll love it. Trust me.” – Drumpf

      Why believe anything this guy says when it’s been proven he lies over 70% of the time?

      ExciteBiker wins IJ today. Congratulations!

      • December 9, 2016 at 11:16 am
        Captain Planet says:
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        You can keep trying

        Right Wing multi-clicks

        “I will repeal and replace it on day one, believe me. I’ll replace it with something great. You’ll love it. Trust me.” – Drumpf

        Why believe anything this guy says when it’s been proven he lies over 70% of the time?

        ExciteBiker wins IJ today. Congratulations!

      • December 12, 2016 at 8:50 am
        Captain Planet says:
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        Still trying out, huh?

        You can keep trying

        Right Wing multi-clicks

        “I will repeal and replace it on day one, believe me. I’ll replace it with something great. You’ll love it. Trust me.” – Drumpf

        Why believe anything this guy says when it’s been proven he lies over 70% of the time?

        ExciteBiker wins IJ today. Congratulations!

        • December 12, 2016 at 5:34 pm
          Bob says:
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          I can show specifically where the media has lied about his supposed lies, so, I’m not buying your percentage that likely came from politifact’s over view of his statements.

          Trump is the only chance of an outsider without a career politician job base as his motivation. The guy has sold investments related to conflict of interest, and has nothing to gain by being president. This is basically just his life being made hell by people like you. I tend to think I can trust him, because of motivations and logic.

          There’s simply no way this guy at 70, while giving his company to his children, is doing this for the wrong reasons.

          • December 13, 2016 at 8:52 am
            Ron says:
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            Bob,

            “I can show specifically where the media has lied about his supposed lies”. Then do it.

            “The guy has sold investments related to conflict of interest, and has nothing to gain by being president.” He ahs sold some of his investments, not all.

            “There’s simply no way this guy at 70, while giving his company to his children, is doing this for the wrong reasons.” Are you so naïve you think he will no longer have the Trump organizations interests influencing his decision making as the POTUS because his children own the business?

            This guy has made his billions and built his reputation on the grounds of pure greed. If you think he has had a come to Jesus moment and will now only act in the best interest of other people, you are sadly mistaken. His, or should I say his children’s empire will grow much more while he is in office. I just hope it is not at the expenses of American citizens and taxpayers.

          • December 13, 2016 at 2:15 pm
            Bob says:
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            “This guy has made his billions and built his reputation on the grounds of pure greed. If you think he has had a come to Jesus moment and will now only act in the best interest of other people, you are sadly mistaken. His, or should I say his children’s empire will grow much more while he is in office. I just hope it is not at the expenses of American citizens and taxpayers.”

            As usual, you go for the character and wealth background.

            Yes, his “empire” will grow (business) in some ways, and it will be harmed in others. Businesses have already shown they will retaliate. These people, the status quo don’t like him, and any in the establishment will stop doing business with him. I think it will equal out.

            As for trusting Trump:

            Again, media lied about his immigration comments, lied about the rapists comments with regards to immigrants, I showed how, the media lied about the amount of immigrants in jail or that are criminals who are released to Mexico only to come back over (the ones Trump was talking about, and I gave a government study regarding to show about 20% of the jail population was indeed these criminals when accounting for state, local, and federal prisons) and they have constantly lied about him. I can give more examples.

            The fact that the media is blurring so many lines, in ways they never do, shows that their motivation is in question.

            As for Trump’s, considering this backlash, and their motivation being in question (media and government) it makes me question him less.

            Something is happening right now, as the media panics, which shows Trump is very likely the answer. Also, don’t be a sheep. Saying what you said is EXACTLY what the media wants you to say.

            These same attacks. You aren’t new. You aren’t the more understanding tolerant generation. Quit it Ron. I don’t take kindly to your “I’m the better” generation crud. And you do think it. I’ve seen it.

            We are the same generation first of all, which is how I know my generation thinks it, and second of all, unlike you, I respect my father’s generation, the 60’s to 70’s generation kids are no different than us. And if you don’t get this, you don’t know history. These guys fought the real civil rights war. We didn’t. You haven’t been tested like them, and you owe them respect.

          • December 13, 2016 at 2:19 pm
            Bob says:
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            Also when I say 60’s to 70’s kids, I’m talking a different “kid” age.

            14-30. Those are the people who did the fight back then for civil rights.

            Of course, older people did too, but the 14-30 people back then thought they were special and really, REALLY, fought for it.

            Our 14-30 year old people are thinking they are doing the same fight right now, but they aren’t.

          • December 13, 2016 at 2:47 pm
            Ron says:
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            Bob,

            To which generation do you think I belong? Hint: It is not Gen Y or Millennial.

            Please quote where I ever said or even implied that my generation is better than any other.

            Do you think Donald Trump has told no lies? Are you that much of a blind lemming?.

            I agree that the media has changed from mostly journalism to mostly rate-seeking sensationalism. But that is happening from all media sources, not just from the left.

            With that said, a few of what have been reported as his lies may have been distorted, but most of them are based on his actual words and fact checkers doing research.

          • December 13, 2016 at 3:49 pm
            Bob says:
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            “Please quote where I ever said or even implied that my generation is better than any other.”

            This is derailing and pack pedaling. You’ve made this much clear. I don’t need to quote it. With your fights, by default, you’re accusing everyone else of bigotry all the time.

            “Do you think Donald Trump has told no lies? Are you that much of a blind lemming?.”

            This is a general type of attack. I work on specifics. Nice derailing, and nice debate tactic to throw out specifics, but damaging to society. You’re too easy Ron.

            “I agree that the media has changed from mostly journalism to mostly rate-seeking sensationalism. But that is happening from all media sources, not just from the left.”

            Generalized comment. I prefer specifics. Planet used a general comment calling him a liar 70% of the time. I believe accountability for that statement is needed and evidence. When I prove that regarding that, the media has specifically gone over board, with Trump, I don’t need to address the other side. That’s on you. Not me. And I’m perfectly allowed to address it as needed, as are you. Show me an article that is misleading in a positive light for Trump. I don’t mean one that has a different opinion. I mean one you can prove is lying intentionally. I’ll wait. I just showed big deals on public opinion where the media lied to keep Trump out of office, a major corporation just told everyone to leave who held ideals like Trump, my brother’s company had a meeting about what Trump being elected meant and if there would be more racism in the company, I kid you not. This shows an extreme bias that needs to be dealt with. Not ignored.

            “With that said, a few of what have been reported as his lies may have been distorted, but most of them are based on his actual words and fact checkers doing research.”

            No. They aren’t. I’ve read these myself. Show examples. The fact checkers have fact checked for example the fighting ISIS her entire life comment. When we include hyperbole, it certainly bolsters the lying comments a bit, in percentage, doesn’t it?

            Why don’t you show me his lies then? I haven’t seen a single one proven yet. I’m not saying he doesn’t lie, but you guys are hanging onto this with him, in a way you didn’t with Obama.

            To me, plans matter, and should be debated. We shouldn’t scream rapist lying bigoted blah blah blah.

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:00 pm
            Ron says:
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            Bob,

            You said, “This is derailing and pack pedaling. You’ve made this much clear. I don’t need to quote it. With your fights, by default, you’re accusing everyone else of bigotry all the time.”

            If you cannot prove your posts, then don’t post. This is exactly why you lose.

            You feel you can say whatever you want about me and my positions without quoting me. But if someone else did that to you, you would lose your mind.

            You said, “Why don’t you show me his lies then? I haven’t seen a single one proven yet. I’m not saying he doesn’t lie, but you guys are hanging onto this with him, in a way you didn’t with Obama.”

            Why should I bother showing you his lies? Every time we provide proof, you just discredit the source. That is some fine debating.

            As I said previously, I have proven that I am right and you have proven that you are right. Where do we go from here?

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:03 pm
            Bob says:
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            I will also add here:

            I have not just randomly called Obama a liar to say he shouldn’t be president, and I’m probably the only person here who hasn’t done this.

            I have probably said he lied about health care savings ($2,500 per family) which is only a relevant lie because it was used to garner votes.

            Everything else I’ve said about Obama are what I don’t like about his plans, and you have basically agreed.

            Then you said why you don’t trust Romney, don’t trust Trump, and how Trump is a liar and will help his cronies.

            Ron, you’ve got to be better than this. I mean factually, but also as a matter of moral character. It’s not right. And you know it.

            You know I haven’t acted this way with Obama, and I don’t need to defend this way with Trump because you want to balance the scales because you believe it happened to you with Obama. Well, not from me. And you know that too.

            But because you are grouping, which you claim other people do, you’re throwing it in my face aren’t you?

            Self analyze kid. You’re acting entirely inappropriate.

          • December 13, 2016 at 6:58 pm
            Bob says:
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            “You said, “This is derailing and pack pedaling. You’ve made this much clear. I don’t need to quote it. With your fights, by default, you’re accusing everyone else of bigotry all the time.”

            “If you cannot prove your posts, then don’t post. This is exactly why you lose.”

            Swing and a miss. I can prove my posts, and this one is common sense. Every time you make the accusation of bigotry, it is rooted in your belief that bigotry is being removed by the new generation that has existed for thousands of years (gays). Do you not believe what I just put? That new laws are removing bigotry against gays? This is the belief that the new generation is less bigoted than the last, and you include yourself within this when talking about bigoted behavior, and have preemptively included my aspects as bigoted with regards to gay rights. It’s a big deal. That’s why I touched on it. Also, I next to always provide my reasoning and sources, and here you are saying why I lose, because I can’t. Don’t bring a knife to a gun fight. What I mean is, you thought you had this because you tried to change the method of debate. Keeping on topic is better.

            “You feel you can say whatever you want about me and my positions without quoting me. But if someone else did that to you, you would lose your mind.”

            Wrong. And you have proven your own bias here. Also, quit with the absurd “you’re not fair” thing. You’re not the special generation, you are not more tolerant, you are not better than the last or others. Each of your replies is rooted in such an idealistic type of approach. I have been fair to you.

            “You said, “Why don’t you show me his lies then? I haven’t seen a single one proven yet. I’m not saying he doesn’t lie, but you guys are hanging onto this with him, in a way you didn’t with Obama.”

            “Why should I bother showing you his lies? Every time we provide proof, you just discredit the source. That is some fine debating.”

            Provide an example of when I have? Now I see why you put above, so you can tell me why should you when I wont’, and then use false equivalency. You think this is your strong area, it is your weak one. In this scenario, rather than arguing for points of fairness, which is what you just did, you should instead provide examples when I ask for them. Show me an example of a Trump lie. Not an error. A lie. Do you understand the difference? Also, I have not discredited the source when I talk about lies that are not lies. I have explained how the source is twisting the truth, which would be, disproving the lie. I do not discredit sources, I make a point of this. I do not EVER say “But that is CNN” or “this professor isn’t qualified”. Literally, ever. If there is an issue with the data I point it out.

            “As I said previously, I have proven that I am right and you have proven that you are right. Where do we go from here?”

            I’m assuming what you mean here, is on another unrelated topic? Because you haven’t proven you are right about Trump.

            Soooooooo….You’ve been right before so you don’t have to prove yourself this time, because it wouldn’t be fair since I won’t prove that you have made comments that show you believe the newer generation is less bigoted, even though I know for a fact you believe that, and if I ask the question you will refuse to answer due to fairness. Do I have that about right?

            And you won’t direct the aspect about Trump’s lies until I make the conversation fair?

            You are a morally bankrupt ass hat. I’m sorry Ron, you are. This isn’t how one debates. It is controlling, it is absurd, and it goes nowhere.

            Do you believe that the younger generation is more tolerant to gays? Is less sexist and racist?

  • December 8, 2016 at 2:53 pm
    Michael says:
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    Basic insurance 101 the law of large numbers to avoid adverse selection. You don’t need a big over complicated plan. Just tax every citizen to pay for one plan fits all. If they want options they can by gap coverage. Hey wait I am talking about Medicare. So forget the ACA just extend Medicare to everyone including government officials. Raise the taxes to pay for it all. Just kidding it’s not that simple but the ACA does not have to be as complex as it is. Trump is a bull in the china shop with a lot of it dripping out the back. Get the politician of the legislation and put insurance people who know what they are doing to work on it.

    • December 8, 2016 at 3:32 pm
      Agent says:
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      That single payer ship sailed quite a while ago. We don’t need to tax people at all or penalize them with a tax if they don’t choose to buy it. This is the USA, not Great Britain. Why is it that the answer to a liberal is always to raise taxes? Haven’t you heard, Trump is going to lower taxes for everyone. Smart people are going to figure this out and it is going to be fair.

      • December 8, 2016 at 4:58 pm
        SWFL Agent says:
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        What are smart people going to figure out? We want the highest quality healthcare for all people regardless of their ability to pay. What “business” works like this? Not the car, hotel, or insurance industry to name a few. We don’t want anyone being turned away from a hospital and we want to provide everyone with the newest, state of the art treatment for ANY illness we think we can cure. And there is more illnesses to cure down the road. Wait, now the healthcare industry really does resemble a gov’t run program. Much like the defense industry except the only difference is that drug companies, doctors, and medical suppliers are ripping off the gov’t instead of defense contractors. Not sure anyone can figure this out. And don’t give us this BS about high risk pools, blah, blah. Somebody still pays and it shifts costs to where you don’t see it. Which I guess you’ll then assume it’s fixed.

        • December 8, 2016 at 6:00 pm
          Agent says:
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          SW, I am surprised you are even an agent. Probably a captive like Farmer’s? Obamacare was never a business, but a scam on the American taxpayer. Time for a business approach, not a government imposed nightmare. Sure there are a lot of drug companies ripping off the folks. That will be taken on as well. Yes, hospitals and doctors have been ripping off the system for a long time. The cases of fraud are rampant in numerous articles on this forum, many of them in your home state of Florida. By the way, defense contractors are also ripping off the taxpayer and the bureaucrats in the Defense department have hidden a report of at least $125 Billion of our tax dollars because they thought their budget would be cut. Boeing thought they could get away with charging $4 Billion for two planes. Sorry, that doesn’t work for Trump or us. Mad Dog will get that straightened out. This so called Obamanation ruined healthcare because it threw the chronically sick in with the healthy at the same rates. By the way, why do you think this imploded on the Democrats and threatens to bankrupt the carriers that signed on to it? Bad design, bad premise and lies about it are the key.

          • December 9, 2016 at 8:16 am
            Ron says:
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            Agent,

            What’s with the insults? Are you going to self-report yourself to IJ?

          • December 9, 2016 at 8:56 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            Wheel Of Right Wing Hypocrite!

          • December 9, 2016 at 9:31 am
            Agent says:
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            Planet, I was looking for you at the Des Moines thank you rally last night, but all I saw was a lonely guy across the street holding a Dump Trump sign. How about your Governor being the new ambassador to China? Isn’t that great? How about Iowa having their first female Governor with Kim Reynolds who appears to be another enthusiastic attractive Conservative in the mold of Joni Ernst. Iowa appears to be on the move now.

          • December 9, 2016 at 9:36 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            Agent,
            I couldn’t make it to the rally. I was too busy on the toilet taking a trump.

            I’m glad to see Terry go. The Brandstache has been Gov of this great state for too long. Kim will probably do a decent job.

          • December 9, 2016 at 9:53 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            I think Dumb Donnie Tic Tacs only got about 4,000 people to show up to watch him spike the football and do his Oompah Loompah end zone dance. Rather than go watch Cheetoh-lini spill more lies, most just stayed home to watch the Hawkeyes take down the Cyclones. GO HAWKS!

          • December 9, 2016 at 10:56 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            Talk about BOTS

            I think Dumb Donnie Tic Tacs only got about 4,000 people to show up to watch him spike the football and do his Oompah Loompah end zone dance. Rather than go watch Cheetoh-lini spill more lies, most just stayed home to watch the Hawkeyes take down the Cyclones. GO HAWKS!

          • December 9, 2016 at 10:57 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            The fact you complain about BOTS and then multi-click is just another example of…

            Wheel Of Right Wing Hypocrites!

          • December 9, 2016 at 4:34 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            all these censors

            Agent,
            I couldn’t make it to the rally. I was too busy on the toilet taking a trump.

            I’m glad to see Terry go. The Brandstache has been Gov of this great state for too long. Kim will probably do a decent job.

          • December 12, 2016 at 8:51 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            right wing censorship

            I think Dumb Donnie Tic Tacs only got about 4,000 people to show up to watch him spike the football and do his Oompah Loompah end zone dance. Rather than go watch Cheetoh-lini spill more lies, most just stayed home to watch the Hawkeyes take down the Cyclones. GO HAWKS!

          • December 12, 2016 at 8:51 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            right wing censorship

            The fact you complain about BOTS and then multi-click is just another example of…

            Wheel Of Right Wing Hypocrites!

          • December 12, 2016 at 8:52 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            right wing censorship

            Agent,
            I couldn’t make it to the rally. I was too busy on the toilet taking a trump.

            I’m glad to see Terry go. The Brandstache has been Gov of this great state for too long. Kim will probably do a decent job.

          • December 12, 2016 at 5:36 pm
            Bob says:
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            “right wing censorship

            The fact you complain about BOTS and then multi-click is just another example of…

            Wheel Of Right Wing Hypocrites!”

            Ah yes, which applies to all of us, even those of us who click nothing? Guilt by association, sex, creed, and religion. That is what your party has encouraged you to do.

            I’ve never down liked a person here, and I’ve never liked my own. Pay attention to my recent posts with ACTU and UW. You will often see zero likes on theirs for days after I have responded. It’s class. And a lot of us republicans have it. You guys though…Well you just commented on Melania’s girl on girl action, rawr! Classy dude. I might have to excuse myself due to your extreme edumification. Derpa derpa.

          • December 12, 2016 at 5:38 pm
            Bob says:
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            After you invited a woman to a hot tub, and then ACTU called patticake a cow, and implied she wishes she could date to the top as a woman.

            RAWR!

            I’m just loving the liberal absence of sexism. Such a breathe of fresh ass…

            (Yes, I’m quoting wild wild west for humor’s sake)

          • December 14, 2016 at 8:55 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            more right wing censorship

            I think Dumb Donnie Tic Tacs only got about 4,000 people to show up to watch him spike the football and do his Oompah Loompah end zone dance. Rather than go watch Cheetoh-lini spill more lies, most just stayed home to watch the Hawkeyes take down the Cyclones. GO HAWKS!

          • December 14, 2016 at 1:37 pm
            bob says:
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            To whoever keeps down liking the heck out of planet (or multiple people)

            He’s just getting ammo here, even though it’s silly. He keeps saying he’s censored. Just give the guy his wish and don’t dislike his posts.

          • December 14, 2016 at 2:55 pm
            Actu says:
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            This is hilarious, it’s almost impossible to believe you aren’t an Andy Kaufman type of parody Bob. You can have class!!? Of course your have to say the left does not. You constantly lie, constantly attack groups, constantly talk down to people, tell people you eill be “lenient,” as if you are dome form of authority who will harm them if they shift stop disagreeing with you and constantly curse out people. Fuck you, classless POS.

            I only made a joke at Patti, who was being garbage. I did not insinuate she would sleep her way into a position. Fuck you liar. No comments about her class, insulting people of different religions or your class for saying being gay is harmful to gays or Agent constantly quoti g the Bible out of context to claim God is against liberals. Saying your friends are better smarter and harder working than Ron’s friends, without meeting them.

            Go to Hell Bob, that’s where people like you belong, you can talk to the other right wingers about the multiple accusations of rape you have all suffered through. Fuck you, human garbage.

            Funny you freaked and whined about downvotes for months, claiming we were one person with multiple accounts, and how wrong it was but now that agent MR and Yogi are doing it to every comment by a liberal you only care that it gives Planet ammo. Hypocrisy from a hypocrite and a liar. Fuck off

          • December 14, 2016 at 3:30 pm
            bob says:
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            “This is hilarious, it’s almost impossible to believe you aren’t an Andy Kaufman type of parody Bob. You can have class!!? Of course your have to say the left does not. You constantly lie, constantly attack groups, constantly talk down to people, tell people you eill be “lenient,” as if you are dome form of authority who will harm them if they shift stop disagreeing with you and constantly curse out people. Fuck you, classless POS.”

            Specifics. What groups? What types of attacks? Not as if I’m an authority, but as if my words have weight, and attacking someone in some scenarios isn’t ok. You’re an idiot.

            “I only made a joke at Patti, who was being garbage.”

            And Trump believes the women he attacked were being garbage.

            “I did not insinuate she would sleep her way into a position.”

            Yes you did. You said that she wishes she could sleep with Attorneys, in other words, she’s a cow, who wishes she could sleep with rich men.

            “Fuck you liar.”

            Maybe you need to stop with the absurd insults, the ones jocks use in high school, and use ones linked to facts. Like when I call you an idiot? I attach it with a fact.

            “No comments about her class, insulting people of different religions or your class for saying being gay is harmful to gays”

            Saying it is harmful to themselves is not insulting people of different class. I have very specific reasons for thinking this, like never going through a child being born from your own DNA in a two gender relationship. That is not against a class ACTU. It’s something I have seen gay people talk about, moderate ones anyway, who like gay sex, and gay relationships, but wish they could have kids the natural way. That is something that I believe harms them, that they would like. Look, specifics, and they aren’t bigoted.

            “or Agent constantly quoti g the Bible out of context to claim God is against liberals.”

            I’m not Agent. Did you just blur two people into one?

            “Saying your friends are better smarter and harder working than Ron’s friends, without meeting them.”

            After he said the reason they can’t get jobs is because they are worse than him? If he says that, they are immediately better. And you would use the same logic, kid.

            “Go to Hell Bob, that’s where people like you belong,”

            And why is that precisely? My words and thoughts?

            “you can talk to the other right wingers about the multiple accusations of rape you have all suffered through. Fuck you, human garbage.”

            I have mentioned this only after your attacks. I’m human garbage for doing so?

            “Funny you freaked and whined about downvotes for months, claiming we were one person with multiple accounts, and how wrong it was but now that agent MR and Yogi are doing it to every comment by a liberal you only care that it gives Planet ammo. Hypocrisy from a hypocrite and a liar. Fuck off”

            Actually, I said it was wrong to hide comments, and it is. On this, Planet is right. When I call him silly, it isn’t an insult. It’s saying he’s overreacting lately, making four posts, every day, on every link about it, is silly. I then said we shouldn’t down like his posts. Therefore, I’m not a hypocrite, and I still to this day, don’t down like ANY posts. I still think people shouldn’t down like posts. And I never commented four times in a day, or more, for several weeks. False equivalency. Again.

            Try again ACTU.

          • December 14, 2016 at 3:33 pm
            bob says:
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            Actu:

            Have you called me right on any aspects lately? I just called Planet right on one.

            Interesting isn’t it?

            This garbage partisan hack? The one that just said plans he liked with Obama? And said what he didn’t about Reagan?

            All you do is talk, and you think you talk big and good.

            But you don’t.

            I don’t care for your games. Being called a rapist has made me quite hostile to you guys, but I am giving respect you guys never would.

            After I called Planet a rapist, he has ignored me for 4-5 years.

            Have I ignored you yet?

            I’m so horrible, aren’t I? Such garbage.

            Keep your swearing lunacy to yourself.

          • December 14, 2016 at 4:35 pm
            Bob says:
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            Also Actu:

            When I commented on dislikes it was clear that one or two of you were engaging in a dislike war.

            Doing 65 dislikes and then some conservative was countering it, with 65 likes. It got out of hand.

            I believe Agent, Yogi, or someone like him had to do with the likes (which I don’t support) and UW, you, or someone similar was doing the dislikes.

            When I told people to stop disliking posts, there was ample evidence that people were doing this to hide posts.

            For planet, there is only minimal evidence. I find his dislikes well within normal range, but even such, I told people to stop disliking his posts, and separately, I have said I have class and never dislike posts, and all people should do the same.

            This is absurd, you will try any method of character attack, to call me garbage the deserves to go to hell.

            Because of likes and dislikes on a page?
            Because I have said that gay people can have better lives?
            Because I have talked personally about my past, in order to show people I’m not a robot?
            Because what exactly? Because I told you not to insult Patti cake? And not to imply she is a cow, and wishes she could have sex with lawyers?

            Even if your spin was right, and I was lying about that, that is a merit for a hell sentence?

            You’re out of your damn mind. And you call people on the right zealots. And you call other people crazy. Look at what matters to you kid!

          • December 14, 2016 at 5:01 pm
            Bob says:
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            Look at your likes and dislikes ACTU.

            What do you notice, as per usual? Before this argument I have consistently done this.

            You have not one dislike, and you have several responses from me. Regardless of this convo, I have regularly done this. I don’t dislike posts. Ever. And I just told other conservatives, if they are doing the same thing, to stop it.

            I also said they are giving him ammo, which is true, but a separate issue, and I also said Planet is silly, for saying it 4-5 times an article the last few weeks, which he is. There is no hypocrisy here.

          • December 14, 2016 at 5:12 pm
            Bob says:
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            I stand corrected ACTU.

            The first time I looked the dislikes looked normal. Now they do not.

            A conservative and or conservatives is definitely hiding his posts.

            This shows I’m able to change my mind when the evidence merits it.

            And what I have to say here is, to those people:

            STOP IT.

            There’s no reason to dislike Planet’s posts that much.

            Am I being fair ACTU?

          • December 15, 2016 at 11:04 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            more right wing censorship

            The fact you complain about BOTS and then multi-click is just another example of…

            Wheel Of Right Wing Hypocrites!

          • December 15, 2016 at 11:04 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            more right wing censorship

            Agent,
            I couldn’t make it to the rally. I was too busy on the toilet taking a trump.

            I’m glad to see Terry go. The Brandstache has been Gov of this great state for too long. Kim will probably do a decent job.

    • December 8, 2016 at 6:25 pm
      DePolarBearables says:
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      @Michael; how does a portfolio of a few reinsurance treaties avoid adverse selection when their numbers are few?

      Adverse selection is avoided by ensuring there is a proper, complete distribution of the various risks from a full risk population. The Law of Large Numbers, or Central Limit Theorem, merely reduces the variance of the (claims) results, lowering the required risk loads on premiums.

      There is a yet-unpublished feature of the Republican plan that helps avoid adverse selection. It cannot easily be explained in a sentence or two; i.e. multiple details are invovled.

      • December 8, 2016 at 10:48 pm
        DePolarBearables says:
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        Adverse selection often results when risks know their propensity to incur claims and insurers not knowing anything about that.

        New ‘provisions’ in the Republican plan are a very novel way to avoid that situation. Sorry, but like Nancy Pelosi Galore once famously said “you’ll have to wait until we pass it to find out what’s in it.” When you read it, you’ll say “why didn’t anyone think of doing that before?”

        • December 9, 2016 at 2:47 pm
          Don't Call Me Shirley says:
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          It’s interesting that, as much as you have complained about Pelosi, you are now using the same type of language. So it’s ok when you do it. Gee, no hypocrisy there.

          • December 9, 2016 at 8:48 pm
            DePolarBearables says:
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            There is a big difference. I and Republicans in charge know what we are talking about, and want to prevent misinformation about the plans from being disseminated by the Liberal Mainstream Media and George Sore-ass’ minions on the internet.

          • December 10, 2016 at 8:27 am
            DePolarBearables says:
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            Also; karma. Deal with it.

  • December 8, 2016 at 6:19 pm
    DePolarBearables says:
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    I’m tired of answering questions here because there are great amounts of misinformation or outright misrepresentations from liberals. If you want answers to satisfy your curiosity, read Ryans’ plan outline on CNBC.com.

    There is no FINAL plan now. Experts are struggling to agree to key details to make the package of many solutions work well together.

    • December 8, 2016 at 9:30 pm
      Ron says:
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      Simple solution, STOP POSTING REPUBLICAN “PLANS”.

      You present yourself as an expert on this issue. That is why we keep asking you for details.

      We read his “plan”. It was a basic outline that probably took less than an hour to put together.

      We already know and have known that the Republicans have no plan, even though you, Bob and others have stated otherwise for years.

      • December 8, 2016 at 10:53 pm
        DePolarBearables says:
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        How do you know I am or am not an expert on the plan?
        There is a plan. Tough for you that you aren’t privy to it. Go sulk while you wait for it to be published in late January. No one is going to tell libbies about it, which is a fair payback for libbies who concealed everything from Republicans until the bill was brought to the floor.

        PS the plan summary didn’t take an hour to put together. It was more like 15 minutes, per an extract from section titles, albeit with some re-arrangement needed for proper sequencing of the summary. The plan followed a different progression, using the faults that existed before ACA, or which were created by ACA, to introduce the solutions to each. Thus, your estimate of an hour to assemble the summary was excessive given the section headers.

        • December 9, 2016 at 8:24 am
          Ron says:
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          DePolarBearables,

          I do not know whether or not you are an expert on the plan. I am going by the fact that you have presented yourself as an expert on the plan. Are you now saying that you are not an expert on the plan?

          You are the one who presented this outline of goals as the Republican plan, not me or anyone else.

          As an American citizen I have the right to know what my government is doing, regardless of party. Are you telling us that Republican secrecy is OK?

          Since I am an Independent, it is safe to tell me the plan. Besides, what damage could be done?

          I guess the Republican approach is, “the Democrats did this bad thing so we can do it too”. Very mature.

          • December 9, 2016 at 9:35 am
            DePolarBearables says:
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            @Ron; you’ll just have to wait until after Jan 20, 2017 to find out what’s in the Republican Plan that is intentionally being concealed now, while O is still POTUS and the current Congress is in office.

            I am not an expert on any plan that is still in flux. I told you several times that details are still being decided upon because all the players haven’t been named yet.

            Paul Ryan’s outline on CNBC.com shows the plan in progress is not some half-baked lie like the ACA. Re-read it a few times if you want to figure out what it means.

            As far as YOUR RIGHT to know what’s in the Republican plan, please provide a reason YOU THINK you have a RIGHT to know… I’ll return to see how important you THINK you are.

          • December 9, 2016 at 10:36 am
            Ron says:
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            DePolarBearables,

            Are you ready to admit that you have been posing as a false expert on the Republican replacement of the PPACA?

            You asked, “As far as YOUR RIGHT to know what’s in the Republican plan, please provide a reason YOU THINK you have a RIGHT to know…”

            Simple, I am an American citizen and they work for me. Is that not how this works?

          • December 9, 2016 at 2:51 pm
            Don't Call Me Shirley says:
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            I’m looking forward to late January so we can se this great, wonderful, mysterious “plan”. We’ll see what happens, and we’ll be ready to discuss it.

          • December 9, 2016 at 8:53 pm
            DePolarBearables says:
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            @Ron; as an American citizen, the politicians also work for me. I donated to many Republicans, so they will listen to donors like me, who will advise them to NOT disclose anything to anyone named ‘Ron’, or any other sore loser opponents who have NO RIGHT TO KNOW ANYTHING.

            You’ll just have to wait until they pass it to find out what’s in it.

          • December 10, 2016 at 8:29 am
            DePolarBearables says:
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            @Ron; I’ll only admit that I was wrong in previously thinking you were not a troll.

          • December 11, 2016 at 9:24 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            DePolarBearables,
            Can we just call you DB for short?

        • December 9, 2016 at 9:39 am
          Agent says:
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          DePolar, Democrats and Independent liberals think this plan should be 2,700 unreadable pages and thousands of addendums and amendments in order to be good. Lawyerese is all they know because that is what they did. Then, they complain that the American people just didn’t understand it.

          If I were you, I wouldn’t even bother with them anymore and let’s just see what is presented after the new administration is sworn in and gets to work. There will be plenty of time to debate the new plan.

          • December 9, 2016 at 10:01 am
            DePolarBearables says:
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            I have a good hunch from what I’m hearing and reading that the ‘Plan’ is a series of plans, some of them to be introduced at the state level. THAT will take some time to coordinate with the Federal bill.

            The ACA never addressed costs. THAT is a major task, and many solutions are possible…. sorting out the best ones to use is going to take a consensus of minds of knowledgeable insurance experts. Trump and Ryan aren’t insurance experts. They will have to hire or contract with some such people…. which takes time. The US Sec. o’ State opening is the current priority of DT, and then, simultaneously, he will address The Wall and ACA…. before January 20, 2017 arrives. Buckle up, libbies! It’s gonna be a bumpy ride for you for at least 4 years!

          • December 9, 2016 at 10:53 am
            Agent says:
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            DePolar, let’s just hope that he doesn’t reach across the aisle and name Kathleen Sebelius for advice on how to design a new plan or make Gruber an analyst. We have had quite enough of them to last a lifetime.

          • December 9, 2016 at 8:56 pm
            DePolarBearables says:
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            @Agent; if DT does anything like that, I’ll undercut them by bidding lower for my consulting services on health care insurance… voila! A better solution, at a lower cost of design. Trump will boast he made a better deal. :)

        • December 9, 2016 at 3:47 pm
          Agent says:
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          DePolar, one thing you and I can agree on is that Ron is not an expert on anything except trolling. He does the same thing with Bob with unending questions and accepts no answers you or he provide. Of course he cannot believe the Progressives are not in power anymore. He is in a state of shock. He actually may be in shock for the next four years and I doubt he will acknowledge the success of Trump when the GDP goes up due to all the new jobs that will be created. He was very happy with the 1-2% GDP that was the hallmark of the Obama years. How about we go to 4-5% in the next few years and everyone has their tax bill lowered. Frankly, I have been tired of paying his taxes for many years now.

          • December 9, 2016 at 6:18 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            And, you are no expert on Ron. He has said numerous times he hopes he has the opportunity to acknowledge GDP and job growth. He isn’t a Progressive, he is an Independent like I am. Don’t you pay attention to what others write out here? Or, is your vision that tunneled?

          • December 9, 2016 at 8:57 pm
            DePolarBearables says:
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            The Insurance Journal has been a great source of info on insurance.

            But lately, it’s become a ‘bridge’ that attracts George Soros funded trolls.

          • December 9, 2016 at 8:58 pm
            DePolarBearables says:
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            Pssst; Independent is a code word for ‘indecisive’. But on this forum, it also means ‘divisive’ and ‘diversionary’.

          • December 9, 2016 at 9:14 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            Yogi, you’re getting paid by George Soros?

  • December 12, 2016 at 11:19 am
    DePolarBearables says:
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    Bad news for liberals hoping to de-legitimize TrumPresident’s election:

    https://www.apnews.com/322db08ce6eb49fb910d5a84de3cccb8/US-judge-rejects-Green-Party's-Pennsylvania-recount-case

    • December 12, 2016 at 11:53 am
      Agent says:
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      DePolar, they will try one more time to flip the electors on the 19th. Failing at that, they can start packing their bags to Cuba or Venezuela.

    • December 12, 2016 at 12:13 pm
      Celtica says:
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      Not to worry about the GOP “Russian” into repealing Obamacare, the GOP is now “Russian” around to ensure that they are not held accountable for withholding CIA hack info they received in September — and sat on it.

      • December 12, 2016 at 1:11 pm
        DePolarBearables says:
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        If there were evidence of what you claim, why hasn’t it been published for public scrutiny yet?

        Furthermore, why do you think it would invalidate the EC results IF IT WERE TRUE?

        Irony: The SOCIALIST party that supports Hillary through SUPER-DELEGATES and BIASED treatment of Bernie’s campaign through Debbie Wasserman Blabbermouth Schultz now supports recounts that failed for AlGore, and are critical of ALLEGED favoritism by COMMUNIST Russia – to which it SOLD 1/3 of the USA’s uranium supplies… for cash to their campaign coffers.

        • December 12, 2016 at 1:56 pm
          Celtica says:
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          Deplorable, unless you have been living under a rock, Putin has been using Wikileaks as a drip-drip-drip source all year long against Hillary. The Senate was informed in Sept. 2016 but chose to sit on it — that would be the GOP controlled Senate. Guess Mitch McConnell was hoping that his wife would be part of the Trump Admin.

          He finally had to answer when it became public this week.

          The Electoral College has requested an Intel Briefing ahead of the Dec. 19th meeting. Drip, drip, drip.

          • December 12, 2016 at 5:41 pm
            Bob says:
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            The red scare all over again.

            It was bad in the past, now it’s good, because you know, there is a giant D at the beginning of the party label.

            Let me be clear, if Russia hacked us, and a BIG IF, this would not link Trump to Russia, and if anything, they would then USE Trump and the public paranoia of that very same issue. This is what they do in Russia.

            So you are the one they are targeting here. Not Trump, not Clinton, to get you to rebel against the system so to speak.

            Don’t be a pawn.

            If Trump does something seriously bad, as we have seen time and time again, the public at large will oust him. It is the great thing about the U.S.

            At one point George W had just about the highest approval rating of all time. Then at another he had about the lowest. Russia isn’t going to change whether or not the public likes and keeps Trump, but if they convince you to become violent and divided, they could do some real societal damage.

          • December 13, 2016 at 10:05 am
            DePolarBearables says:
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            I have seen Wikileaks publish the info.

            When has Putin been involved in Wikileaks? Link? Story?

            Leak, leak, leak. Dem Sen. Leaky Leahy was ok with leaking US intel. Why are Dems not ok with Wiki leaking it on Dems?

          • December 13, 2016 at 1:16 pm
            Celtica says:
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            Me thinks Deplorables did not watch all the presidential debates, otherwise, she would have remembered Trumps often repeated remarks about 400 lb. hackers living in their parents basement when asked about Russian hacking.

            You can lead the horse to water but you cannot make them think, er drink.

          • December 13, 2016 at 1:18 pm
            Celtica says:
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            Bob, the public (although not a majority, mind you), were willing to overlook all of Trump’s considerable faults. They will go along with Putin’s dream team the way sheep follow herders.

          • December 13, 2016 at 1:46 pm
            DePolarBearables says:
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            Russia gets a HYUUUGE amount of Uranium from Clinton, but now they hack the DNC to harm Clinton.

            Something in the libbies latest claim doesn’t make sense.

            Libbies worried that a foreign nation (Russia) interfered with US Elections, but aren’t concerned with The Clinton Crime family Foundation taking money from foreign governments or individuals in exchange for subsequent political favors they expect after Clinton becomes POTUS. Oops!

          • December 13, 2016 at 1:55 pm
            Bob says:
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            “Celtica says:

            Bob, the public (although not a majority, mind you), were willing to overlook all of Trump’s considerable faults. They will go along with Putin’s dream team the way sheep follow herders.”

            I love your “although not a majority mind you”. It basically discredits your comment by adding something you added to have another zinger you have been using against republicans to say people don’t want Trump. You caught yourself in a catch 22 and I don’t really have to even speak, but I did, to point that out.

            Back on topic, though I just addressed why you negated your own comment and my need to comment, I will add some of my own comments I do think should be said:

            The people who voted for Trump cannot be sheep. Liberals and the younger crowd are the indoctrinated ones, and they support their candidates no matter what. Again, history, Bush W, people flipped. This shows the moderates can flip. With regards to Trump, the public will turn on him if they feel it is necessary. Also: You are completely wrong about Trump, and that is why the public allowed him to become president, (though not a majority). I am by no means a sheep, nor are the moderates who voted for him, and we didn’t fall for your and the media’s lying phrases about immigrants, or other bull cry wolf phrases. You threw everything and the kitchen sink at Trump, and it reflected more on your side, than it did on Trump.

            The shame on you, goes to you.

          • December 13, 2016 at 1:56 pm
            Bob says:
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            For confused:

            Russia produces evidence much like the news reports going on now about the hack.

            I do not trust the government on this one. At all, and I won’t when they engage in this behavior.

            You giving links of people who say we were hacked doesn’t convince me.

            Also, as I have said to others: If they hacked us, the intent was not to have Trump win. The intent was to create paranoia and public direst.

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:31 pm
            Celtica says:
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            Bob, if Trump ever receives more votes than Hillary, then he will have a majority of Americans, but until then, he does not. Period.

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:49 pm
            Bob says:
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            “Bob, if Trump ever receives more votes than Hillary, then he will have a majority of Americans, but until then, he does not. Period.”

            If this is what you’re hung up on you didn’t get what I said. You’re trying to find these one liner end it all comments constantly. You should have addressed the topic at hand more.

            At any rate, neither of them had a majority, in either case, period. It was obvious to me that you were hung up on that phrase so much. 65 million votes is about a fifth of the population.

            Normally I wouldn’t support using this as a method of debate, I would consider this derailing on my end even, however, I think that pointing out your flaw here is critical to you arguing better and seeing the light so to speak.

          • December 14, 2016 at 6:39 pm
            Bob says:
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            Celtica,

            I think I should give you some credit here. While I think you debated poorly in terms of strength of argument, you did not debate with me aggressively or rudely.

            And to that I applaud you. I don’t think your posts are being treated fairly with likes, so I’m going to personally go out of my way to like them. It’s something I can’t remember the last time I did it, so I hope it shows I’m willing to be all ears to your arguments.

            And I would like to hear some better prepared ones next time. I can’t learn, and see if I’m wrong, if I don’t receive good arguments and info.

            One area I can thank you and others here is bantering with me to keep me researching, and while some of your guy’s info has been wrong, your concepts, have made me think. I have been wrong in the past, and I’ve had to re-question my points. You’re a needed part of society, questioning these things.

            You have a role, of great importance. Keep up the challenging, and hopefully, the respectful tone you just used with me this time around. We all have a lot of searching to do, and always will.

    • December 12, 2016 at 3:29 pm
      Agent says:
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      DePolar, who do we see about a refund on Healthcare.gov? Wasn’t it Moochelle’s room mate in college that had that deal costing the taxpayer about a $billion? It still didn’t work, by the way.

      • December 13, 2016 at 10:06 am
        DePolarBearables says:
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        Trump will give a ‘refund’ to American citizens who suffered through the past 6 years of ACA, either due to higher rates or tax penalties for not buying insurance. It will be in the form of federal income tax cuts.

    • December 14, 2016 at 1:01 pm
      Agent says:
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      DePolar, does Jill Frankenstein get to keep the left over recount money she raised or return it? Saw an article that $1 million went to consultants and lawyers. She made quite a haul on her quest to overturn the election. Maybe she will now show up at electors doors and try to flip them.

  • December 13, 2016 at 1:11 pm
    Captain Planet says:
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    This just in, Drumpf names Debra Crew, President and CEO of RJ Reynolds, as Surgeon General.

    • December 13, 2016 at 1:21 pm
      CelticaCeltica says:
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      That was a good one! No smoking zones? Phooey!

  • December 13, 2016 at 1:22 pm
    FFA says:
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    My god. The guys not even in office yet.
    Get your participation trophy (a box of tissues) and go home & cry about it. Now its the Russians that rigged the election and no one even want to wait to see what this guy has / has not got.

    Get over it. Sore losers.

    • December 13, 2016 at 1:49 pm
      DePolarBearables says:
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      I recall that Clinton pushed the red reset button, to reset relations with Russia.

      Oops!

      Would foreign nations making donations to The Clinton Crime Family Foundation be considered to be ‘rigging’ of US foreign policy?

    • December 13, 2016 at 3:37 pm
      Agent says:
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      FFA, good one. We have 38 days until inauguration and these trolls are blaming him for anything and everything. These sore loser crybabies have used up several boxes of Kleenexes. I think I will go invest in that company and also cardboard file folder box companies as the Progressive left exit Washington DC.

      • December 13, 2016 at 3:51 pm
        Ron says:
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        Agent,

        Welcome to supporting the winner. Now you will find out what it is like to have to defend the person for whom you voted.

        This is how it works.

        • December 13, 2016 at 3:55 pm
          Bob says:
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          As if you were wrongly pursued for voting Obama? You actually did mess up. We have yet to see if Agent did, and you’re already mocking him.

          Stay classy dude!

          You’re so much better than everyone here! I love you! Hypocrisy abounds!

        • December 13, 2016 at 4:14 pm
          Agent says:
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          Ron, I am sure you will find something to dislike whatever Trump does, even if the population thinks it to be good policy. That is what Progressives do. I don’t mind defending for a change. 8 years of Obama was quite enough. Your guy leaves quite a legacy, doesn’t he? Just about everything he has done will be overturned from Executive Orders to Obamacare.

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:23 pm
            Ron says:
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            Agent,

            Then I must not be a Progressive, by your definition.

            I am hoping to applaud our President Trump when he does things that are good for the country and we see good results. However, I will not give him, as I did not give President Obama, a free pass.

            Will you be willing to hold him accountable if the country does not get better?

            Is that fair enough?

          • December 13, 2016 at 5:18 pm
            Agent says:
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            Ron, I will be the first to criticize Trump if he does something I cannot support. However, Progressives have blamed Bush for all the ills of the world for a very long time. Ad nauseum, I might add. Obama had his chance and he failed miserably. Progressive Socialism is not the right model to make this country strong, only weakens it as we have seen. We have been yearning for a strong leader who will do the right thing and “Make America Great” again. Get on board with it!

    • December 13, 2016 at 4:35 pm
      Celtica says:
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      FAA, if anyone would know about being a sore loser, it would be you 2008-2016. Now, stop being a sore winner.

      • December 13, 2016 at 6:35 pm
        FFA says:
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        Yes, Obama hurt me with his version of affordable health. Yes, he made me work 3x as hard just to break even. I accepted the reality he won and I went to the office to game plan on how to survive.

        I am awaiting my new reality so I can adjust again. Thats what has kept my doors open for over 27 years on Main St USA – not looking back. Looking forward. I currently employing 5 people while supporting 6 people under my roof. I had my complaints through the past 8 years, but never once did I protest, burn things down or any thing along them lines. I put my feet on the floor and went at it again.

        Everyone would be better served by letting go of the results and accepting them as the new reality.

        So far – he is not even in office – he stopped them jobs from leaving the country keeping them in the Heart Land, stock market is moving right along and he dont want to spend $14 Bill on unnecessary planes. Sounds like he is doing something good and he is not even in office yet. But, I’ll take the wait and see approach. Give him 100 days in office before I pass judgment.

        • December 14, 2016 at 10:04 am
          Agent says:
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          FFA, looks like more companies are seeing the handwriting on the wall. IBM just announced they will be hiring 25,000 new employees for the US. Coupled with Carrier, Ford, these companies are going to see a much friendlier government to deal with in the coming years. Must be the businessman’s approach. Watch the trolls try to downplay this.

          • December 14, 2016 at 10:39 am
            Ron says:
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            President-elect Trump is again taking credit for something for which he did nothing.

            “Technology companies seem to be increasingly focusing on creating jobs as well as investing generously in the U.S. ahead of the meeting with Trump (the plan was already in place even before Trump was elected).”

            Read more: http://www.nasdaq.com/article/ibm-looks-to-invest-1b-to-create-25000-jobs-in-the-us-cm721288#ixzz4SpM6CLAe

          • December 14, 2016 at 1:47 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            I asked before, how long do you think it will take Drumpf to take credit for the President Obama economy? It’s already happening.

            Agent – you mean the same Carrier that is moving jobs to Mexico, despite Drumpf’s crony Capitalist visit?

          • December 14, 2016 at 6:02 pm
            Bob says:
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            *Sigh*

            Read your own links:

            “Technology companies seem to be increasingly focusing on creating jobs as well as investing generously in the U.S. ahead of the meeting with Trump (the plan was already in place even before Trump was elected).

            The main objective behind doing so is to be on the safe side and avoid any criticism for outsourcing jobs to other nations”

            This is because Trump triggered this fight.

            See this:

            http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/18/apple-is-exploring-moving-iphone-production-to-the-us-report.html

            “Apple asked both Foxconn and Pegatron, the two iPhone assemblers, in June to look into making iPhones in the U.S.,” the Nikkei Asian Review reported, citing a source.

            So then, another 25,000 jobs due to pressure are coming from IBM, we have 25,000 and $50 billion from soft bank, 800 from carrier, possibly hundreds from keeping more lines of Ford vehicles here, and you want to call Trump a liar, instead of see what is happening here.

            Apple only just now, and due to a Trump potential win, researched making Iphones here.

            Trump hasn’t even got into office yet.

            This to me is a sign of what he will do.

            Quit being ignorant trying to find out where he is a liar, trying to show him taking unmerited credit, and use the same level of suspect with your sources, that you are barely %@#%@ing reading kid.

          • December 14, 2016 at 6:05 pm
            Bob says:
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            In just over a month since his win, that means verifiably (Unlike Obama’s measure)created or saved over 51,000 jobs.

            This is just from deals. That’s amazing. Not just in a small way. In a big one.

            And here you are being a complete partisan hack trying to spin it to bad, like you claimed people used to do with Obama…While you call everyone else a hypocrite.

            Knock if off. You’re spinning lately, I could tell about a month ago. This really rocked your world didn’t it?

          • December 14, 2016 at 6:08 pm
            Bob says:
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            “Captain Planet says:

            I asked before, how long do you think it will take Drumpf to take credit for the President Obama economy? It’s already happening.

            Agent – you mean the same Carrier that is moving jobs to Mexico, despite Drumpf’s crony Capitalist visit?

            He saved the 1,100 he promised, and then they decided to move another 300 they had not before. They then deducted these different jobs from the 1100 saved. 800 is better than none, and it’s a good deal for the government. Also, he’s not in office, and, he hasn’t got his tariffs yet which will 10 fold bring these jobs and revenues back.

            Obama has not had a good recovery. Jobs growth has not kept up with population growth. You cannot compare a president from over 30 years ago, numerically, to today, on jobs numbers. Reagan’s LPR went up, unemployment went down, wages went up more than Obama, and job creation exceeded population growth in the job market. Obama’s LPR went down, which cause the unemployment drop, wages remained stagnant, and jobs did not keep up with population growth. I already gave links on this in an article from a few weeks ago if you want to find it. It’s the one where ACTU and UW kept on calling me a rapist among other things.

          • December 14, 2016 at 6:09 pm
            Bob says:
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            Also, I will reiterate:

            You’re using an insult based on his name, that is a play off of either German heritage, or the fact that he immigrated and his grandfather changed his name. This would make you guilty of doing what you say Trump does with immigrants. His name, is Trump. And by God, you will use his name, instead of being a bigoted piece of trash.

          • December 14, 2016 at 6:23 pm
            Bob says:
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            Sorry, I copied and posted from the wrong link. That one didn’t connect the dots to Trump. This one does:

            “The report says sources in the Apple supply chain believe Trump will push Apple to make some percentage of iPhones in the United States. Whatever the reality, it makes sense for Apple to explore domestic iPhone production and be necessarily prepared for any eventuality.”

            https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/17/report-apple-asked-foxconn-and-pegatron-to-investigate-manufacturing-iphones-in-the-united-states-as-donald-trump-import-policy-overhangs/

            This shows they were worried about Trump and took action. They were not worried about Obama, who promised this same thing in 2012.

            Note that China also hyperventilated. It is because they rely on us for those jobs. Not vice versa. They threatened us because they knew what Trump will do.

            This shows with my link, a confirmed circumstance of a Tech company preparing for Trump. And that is what Dell did as well.

    • December 14, 2016 at 4:06 pm
      Agent says:
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      FFA, so Trump is meeting with a lot of people in Trump Tower including Hilliary former supporters and they are coming out impressed. How about Bill Gates? How about Jim Brown? Sounds to me like he is being inclusive, how about you? This man will be President to all the people. By the way, Small business just loves how this election went. I have a lot of hope and faith that this country turned the corner on 11-8-16. There are a lot of naysayers and Progressives who won’t believe anything but their agenda, but the recovery process has begun.

  • December 13, 2016 at 3:01 pm
    Tolerance Matters says:
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    If anyone had any doubt that our country was completely controlled by private interest groups and corporations have no fear – Master Trump is hastily ensuring the indoctrination of our society into one of perceived choice and consequence to literally no choice at all. At what point will these cabinet picks ring a bell for Trump supporters?

    • December 13, 2016 at 3:22 pm
      Agent says:
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      Tolerance, at what point will the Progressive Socialist politics irk you? Still happy with Obama? How about Hilliary? How about Jill Frankenstein? How about Lizzie Borden Warren?

      • December 13, 2016 at 3:41 pm
        Tolerance Matters says:
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        No. I am not happy with any of those sheep. Warren is a joke and Hillary is known liar. That being said that doesn’t take away from the fact that the WINNER of OUR election is being proven more and more of a liar with each passing day. Agent, this has to be something we can agree on. Liars come from both sides, right? Or are all liars Democrats?

        • December 13, 2016 at 4:20 pm
          Agent says:
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          Tolerance, we don’t have the time or space to list all of the lies of Obama & Hilliary and their minions. I was gratified to see that all the appointments made so far seem to be directly opposite of Obama’s policies and appointments. We may also lose the 20 something nasty Czars that have been operating for the last 8 years. That is a good thing, by the way. How about you give the man a chance before calling him a liar? He is going to drain the swamp and that is a big undertaking.

      • December 13, 2016 at 3:48 pm
        Ron says:
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        Agent,

        If your only defense of President Trump is that other people are worse, then he is indefensible. Tell us why his lies and crony appointments are good for the country, not just corporations.

        • December 13, 2016 at 3:52 pm
          Bob says:
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          If your only defense of Obama, is that Reagan was equal, or to constantly say all politicians are the same, we have a bigger problem.

          Also, his appointments are crony ones why? Because they have jobs?

          You don’t know what you’re saying just yet.

          As for why they are good for the country:

          They are already making deals to bring back jobs, and they aren’t saying it’s impossible like Obama did.

          What you just did was bigotry by the way. Rich people = greed! = Cronyism! = All the same!

          False equivalency applies here. We weigh the individual based on their actual actions, which these new people haven’t done yet and you’re already calling them cronyists. Very classy and well researched, dude!

          • December 13, 2016 at 3:59 pm
            Tolerance Matters says:
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            Bob,

            Bring back jobs? Please. Please. Although I do not always agree with you I truly respect your thoughts in a way I could never respect Agent’s or Depolar’s. JOBS!!!! THE FACTS show Obama cut the unemployment % in half. There is no debating it. And please don’t say, “well they are bad jobs”. A job is a job. Would you rather have someone work at McDonalds or collect welfare?

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:06 pm
            Bob says:
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            Tolerance:

            Progress! I will take it! Not long ago you grouped me with him and I will give you a big big big THANK YOU for what you said! Progress!

            On topic: The facts show that the LPR is the main reason behind the unemployment rate going down. The bad job argument is a good argument as the economy will shatter if we don’t have good jobs, but that isn’t and hasn’t been my argument. That has been agent’s. I believe you know it, don’t you?

            From there, we can easily see that the working ages up to 74 have gone up. This is clearly a job market with less people working due to availability of jobs.

            And yes, I want jobs back. Let’s see if Trump can do it. If he can’t, I already said what I would do. That is, if he gets his plans and it doesn’t work.

            Is that fair?

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:08 pm
            Bob says:
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            I feel like we should hug it out.

            ;-)

            Seriously though, let’s keep up the good debate.

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:12 pm
            Ron says:
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            Since President Reagan is considered one of the greatest presidents ever, I would see that as a compliment to President Obama. Wouldn’t you?

            For the record, I would rate President Reagan well ahead of President Obama. I never said President Obama was great, only that he has been average to above average.

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:16 pm
            Tolerance Matters says:
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            Bob,

            More than fair. That being said the so-called “bad jobs” still serve a purpose. Without these “bad jobs” there is no economic curve and without a curve we have…SOCIALISM (evil). The idea of the elderly working longer is sad. Pensions gambled away by Wall Street elites. There is so much large scale corruption coming from both sides it is mind blowing that I don’t see more people on this blog saying, “EVERYTHING IS CORRUPT” not just “well, my side is better than yours because yours did this and mine didn’t”. Also, serious question. What constitutes a good job? One could offer that greatly differs based on the individual. I may not care about benefits but want a strong starting salary. You may want benefits and are willing to start a little lower. I may want x amount of paid vacation. You may want guaranteed maternity leave for your wife. These are examples, by the way. I feel, personally, that before we can even decide which jobs are good or bad we have to clearly define just what that means. Your thoughts?

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:17 pm
            Bob says:
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            “Since President Reagan is considered one of the greatest presidents ever, I would see that as a compliment to President Obama. Wouldn’t you?”

            No. I wouldn’t. Not when you’re talking about elements of weakness, and elements you yourself think are bad. And also not when these elements are big reasons to vote, and getting the who wrong and referencing back 30 plus years ago, is damaging to solving the problem. It’s not relevant.

            “For the record, I would rate President Reagan well ahead of President Obama. I never said President Obama was great, only that he has been average to above average.”

            I don’t care. I care about specifics. Haven’t I already made this clear?

            When it comes to Reagan I probably rate him a little lower than you might think…Personally.

            He did some good work, but I still consider him a “politician”.

            Kennedy on the other hand, it’s clear they had some sort of Mafia ties that he finally decided to clip off. That took some balls. I don’t consider him a “politician”.

            Reagan for example could have tackled the corporate tax rate and he didn’t. I’ll give you some of my Reagan dislikes that I believe are legitimate if you want.

            While people say he won the Cold war, for example, I think that’s a bit of luck, and we spent to much to do it.

            I don’t like war. I like what Trump has been saying so far, and that liberals called him dangerously anti war (before they called him dangerously pro war) and that he is against the NATO military spending requirements.

            I don’t think you realize what type of voter I am, or the Trump voters are. We are weird voters. Just not weird in the way you think.

            And we don’t like a lot of conservative ideals.

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:18 pm
            Ron says:
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            Bob,

            So, in your world the 14+ million jobs created in the past 7 years and 74 consecutive months of net jobs gained had nothing to do with the lower unemployment rate?

            In addition, as of 12/7/16, they are 5.5 million job openings.

            http://www.bls.gov/jlt/

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:24 pm
            Bob says:
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            Tolerance,

            “More than fair. That being said the so-called “bad jobs” still serve a purpose. Without these “bad jobs” there is no economic curve and without a curve we have…SOCIALISM (evil).”

            I don’t disagree, I’m just saying we do need to focus on good jobs and an environment conducive to that. I’m just saying right now we seem to be on the edge of something that could be very bad. Whatever it takes to fix it, I will support.

            “The idea of the elderly working longer is sad. Pensions gambled away by Wall Street elites. There is so much large scale corruption coming from both sides it is mind blowing that I don’t see more people on this blog saying, “EVERYTHING IS CORRUPT””

            I think this has more to do with being triggered into topics than it does with people not saying everything is corrupt, and I also think that “everything” is an over exaggeration that can be dangerous. We need to find the people who can fix this. Everything is corrupt makes everyone just vote in and out incumbents, as independents have been doing for some time, regardless of positions held. And that hasn’t worked. Even Agent has said he doesn’t like what he calls “rhinos” which are basically republicans that don’t support good policies. So he’s willing to turn on them.

            “not just “well, my side is better than yours because yours did this and mine didn’t”.”

            I think this is a bit over simplified. At times there is a problem with “sides” that unify. The democrats just unified big time 2008 until now in a very big and bad way. This is what a lot of people here are talking about. It is scary. They have involved schools, and more importantly, it has worked. Look at the youth. It’s insanely scary, and that is what many conservatives talk about here. While there are problems abound, we have to deal with the ones we know.

            “Also, serious question. What constitutes a good job? ”

            Pay amount in comparison to benefits and being able to have enough money to live.

            “One could offer that greatly differs based on the individual. I may not care about benefits but want a strong starting salary. You may want benefits and are willing to start a little lower. I may want x amount of paid vacation.”

            Addressed above. All those items being broken down isn’t needed. A livable wage when considering benefits.

            “You may want guaranteed maternity leave for your wife. These are examples, by the way. I feel, personally, that before we can even decide which jobs are good or bad we have to clearly define just what that means. Your thoughts?”

            Same as above. Sorry I broke them out, I just don’t like too much text in one area. It makes things difficult to read and find. I’m getting older and my eyes aren’t what they used to be.

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:28 pm
            Bob says:
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            “Ron says:

            Bob,

            So, in your world the 14+ million jobs created in the past 7 years and 74 consecutive months of net jobs gained had nothing to do with the lower unemployment rate?”

            Yes. Due to jobs not keeping up with the population growth. I have already given links on this, go back to the older links. Reagan’s jobs growth increased LPR, decreased the rate, and, there were more jobs made than population grew to move into them. That’s a big deal. 14 million jobs in 2008-2016 is not the same as almost 20 million jobs during 1982-1990.

            “In addition, as of 12/7/16, they are 5.5 million job openings.”

            For what types of jobs? I’m not exactly buying this.

            “http://www.bls.gov/jlt/”

          • December 13, 2016 at 6:47 pm
            Tolerance Matters says:
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            Bob,

            Thank you for your response. First thing I’d like to address is the youth. I am old enough now to see that there is something terribly wrong with this upcoming generation. The amount of entitlement is astounding. I do feel this is largely because of a ‘politically correct’ culture that in all reality is starting to equate to vocal oppression. I am not saying it is okay to be racist or sexist but I do believe the power of man’s word should never be diminished or hushed simply because some are uncomfortable with it.
            Now regarding “everything is corrupt”. Bob, each year that passes makes me feel as though just about everything is corrupt. I may be jaded. I don’t know. Do you ever get the feeling, “Are these people truly representing my best interests?” “Do these politicians actually care about the people or are they just working for themselves/each other?”

            We know all the basic cable news networks are essentially extensions of a political party. They are influence machines. We know that facts hardly matter anymore. We KNOW this. News reports go out all the time without fact checking. Trump, although deeply flawed, is not the worst human being to ever exist but many media outlets kept spewing hate about him because they could and no one would stand up and say, “WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?” It is though one happening verified automatically verifies/authenticates everything else.

            Basically, “Trump said grab em’ by the p*** therefore he also raped so and so”

            or

            “Hillary used a private email account therefore she is committing treason”

            Maybe I am rambling at this point. My point is the further each extreme (left or right) go the harder of a time we will have as a country. I didn’t vote for Trump but I don’t want him to fail. I hope that his cabinet choices turn out to be highly strategic and beneficial to our economy but look at it from the perspective of your every day man. Trump is choosing other super rich people to run a country that is already run by super rich people for super rich people. Yes, I understand wealth mostly means success. That being said success for oneself hardly ever means success for others as well.

          • December 13, 2016 at 7:20 pm
            Bob says:
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            “Tolerance Matters says:

            Bob,

            Thank you for your response. First thing I’d like to address is the youth. I am old enough now to see that there is something terribly wrong with this upcoming generation. The amount of entitlement is astounding. I do feel this is largely because of a ‘politically correct’ culture that in all reality is starting to equate to vocal oppression. I am not saying it is okay to be racist or sexist but I do believe the power of man’s word should never be diminished or hushed simply because some are uncomfortable with it.”

            I think you’re on the right track. When you realize what caused it, you’ll be quite afraid to go the liberal route.

            “Now regarding “everything is corrupt”. Bob, each year that passes makes me feel as though just about everything is corrupt. I may be jaded. I don’t know. Do you ever get the feeling, “Are these people truly representing my best interests?” “Do these politicians actually care about the people or are they just working for themselves/each other?””

            This is American. Everyone believes it. But I believe in assigning it to those responsible. Otherwise it just becomes paranoia. Bills, proposals, etc.

            “We know all the basic cable news networks are essentially extensions of a political party.”

            No. I disagree. This actually is a political party problem. Even Fox News has liberals on it. Megan Kelly does not like Trump, and she is not soft on him. Fox as a whole didn’t support Trump. Out of hundreds of newspaper agencies, only 1 or 2 endorsed Trump. The stations are quite clearly an extension of Liberal power. There are only a handful of conservative ones, and they just showed that they are in the same game as liberals. I will go back to your paranoia for a moment and hit on Agent’s beliefs so you finally understand him. Since the 80’s, democrats have basically become so corrupt you have three types of republicans as a result. 1. Those who are also corrupt. About 20-30%. 2. Those who started fighting in a way reactive to democrats. Posers I will call them. 3. Extreme right people as a response to what is an extreme left. That item 1 heads EVERY single news station, and this item 1, are not republicans. Yes, I just pointed out that there are literally no corrupt true republicans that are not in league with democrats. That is the scary realization.

            “They are influence machines. We know that facts hardly matter anymore. We KNOW this.”

            The influence only really works on a small section of the population. 30% of the population is independent, and the statement you just said, is how they are influenced. This is where things get tricky. What you believe is influencing you isn’t. And you know it. What is influencing you is that you feel influenced and paranoid, you don’t trust the news, instead of fact checking one to one you are blanket applying, are worried of cronyism with Trump equally to Hillary, and that is the ultimate goal. The democrats became very good at this. It is right now, their side. After the 40’s when they took power, there was an entire corruption that has not been undone. They had 40 years of dominance, without one conservative majority. They need to be crushed thoroughly, and they are the ones in control of the schools, the media, etc.

            “News reports go out all the time without fact checking.”

            They get over fact checked, and then the conclusion is twisted. The facts of most articles are true. Even CNN. The conclusion is not. For example when CNN said oil corporations were paying roughly 15% in taxes. This is if you take world wide revenues and compare to U.S. Taxes. If you take all taxes, they paid 45%. Fox reported this themselves, and is one they actually had correct. But Fox themselves will leave out or mislead. So the data is not wrong. The conclusion is.

            “Trump, although deeply flawed,”

            I entirely disagree, and it is evidence of how bad the liberals have power in all sections including conservative media, that you believe this. Trump may well be the ONLY player on the field that if NOT flawed politically. He may end up being a bad person, but he or someone like him and with his wealth is literally the only wild card that could possibly exist, and has existed, in the last 200 years. You may think I’m exaggerating. I’m not. Not when you know history. In the last century it has become impossible to become president unless you are a career politician, or connected to big money that gives you enough to win. And I mean connected in a bad way. Trump is the only person who might not be, and could EVER possibly not be. I should also emphasize “possibly”. Unlike those on the left I’m willing to admit I could have been conned. It is however, very unlikely. I believe Trump is the ONLY candidate that would have the LEAST flaws of any candidate in the last 200 years. I will explain more later.

            “is not the worst human being to ever exist but many media outlets kept spewing hate about him because they could and no one would stand up and say, “WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?” It is though one happening verified automatically verifies/authenticates everything else.”

            Ah ha, you’re further along the Trump realization than I thought. I have nick named the process that gets one to go crazy about how screwed we are. I call it the Trump realization.

            “Basically, “Trump said grab em’ by the p*** therefore he also raped so and so”

            I know right? This one is ticking me off.

            “or

            “Hillary used a private email account therefore she is committing treason”

            There is way more grounds on this. There is precedence and a man who basically was put in jail for having submarine pictures on his phone. Hillary does deserve jail time for this, or we need to undo the extremity of the law. Are you aware for example, I will have to confirm the book and movie later, but a guy who gave details about the War with Iraq, and wrote a book, they took ALL the money he made, and the movie still released and they took ALL that as well? The government considers how they act and they ALWAYS follow it. For Hillary, she got off on something she shouldn’t have. To me, that is also part of the Trump effect. This is not a typical scenario of political fights as the liberals say. They did that to smokescreen what happened and say it was politics as usual. Obama and post democrats are even worse than the ones from the 40’s, and the 60’s, which were even notoriously bad considering the dominance they had. They intentionally used that civil rights bill to get minorities, and they have intentionally divided the country since then.

            “Maybe I am rambling at this point. My point is the further each extreme (left or right) go the harder of a time we will have as a country.”

            Disagreed. Extremely right, (not party, but plan) aligns where it aligns. Being hardcore on the right political spectrum, might actually be right, and integrating leftist ideals may actually do harm. Extremity of correctness is not bad. You’re precluding the possibility that extreme right, is right, don’t you realize that? And it is possible. I’m not going to say it is for sure, but it could be. We shouldn’t compromise to the left if so.

            “I didn’t vote for Trump but I don’t want him to fail.”

            I have a feeling you’ll like him if he turns out how I expect, and then you’ll realize and hate the republicans following him! I know I will.

            “I hope that his cabinet choices turn out to be highly strategic and beneficial to our economy but look at it from the perspective of your every day man. Trump is choosing other super rich people to run a country that is already run by super rich people for super rich people. Yes, I understand wealth mostly means success. That being said success for oneself hardly ever means success for others as well.”

            I’m aware of this. These are the only people who could possibly help at this point. Career politicians (what I mean by this is people who haven’t had businesses, there are many different usages for this word) cannot understand how to fix our issues.

            Business owners can be an issue, but with Trump at the helm, I’m not worried. Not yet anyway.

          • December 14, 2016 at 1:04 pm
            Agent says:
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            Bob, I tend to like successful people being brought into cabinet positions much more than political hacks.

          • December 14, 2016 at 2:58 pm
            bob says:
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            Agent,

            For me it varies. But I get what you’re saying.

          • December 14, 2016 at 5:17 pm
            Agent says:
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            Tolerance, we have been saying – Bring back jobs please for 8 long years. By the way, it shouldn’t be burger flipper jobs or having a family take 3 or more part time jobs to make ends meet. IBM jobs will surely be much better, don’t you agree? After we re-patriate the offshore money being hidden due to Obama’s taxes, watch the economy grow. This is just the start we have been looking for. Get on board. It will be quite a ride.

        • December 13, 2016 at 3:57 pm
          Tolerance Matters says:
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          Ron,

          Here is an absolute truth. We lost. All of us. We lost and it will take a long time to repair what is surely coming. I’m not just talking about “liberals”. I am talking about ALL of us. Shortly after the election I took to these forums to call for peace and compromise. Trump’s actions, although early — pierce our countries integrity in ways I could not have imagined. When people realize he is basically putting together an ALL-STAR team of CEOs of major corporations to run our country….never mind. You know, people won’t care. They won’t see it coming but when it does they will feel it. Trump’s choices speak larger than any speech he has given. In fact, they basically contradict most of what he has laid to tape. I am terrified.

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:04 pm
            Ron says:
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            Tolerance Matters,

            When Donald Trump won I was one of the few who did not vote for him (did not vote for Hillary Clinton either), who was willing to give him an honest chance. He is quickly whittling away at my support. He will still be my president, but I also have some fear that I hope will not be realized.

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:26 pm
            Agent says:
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            Tolerance, we were far more scared at the prospect of having Hilliary Clinton as our President. Our non unifier has hurt this country in more ways than you can imagine. That is why he was known widely as the divider in chief. Trump’s appointments are great, they will do the “right” thing for America. If you can’t stand it, Canada is open for immigrants.

          • December 13, 2016 at 4:31 pm
            Agent says:
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            We know you voted for “What is Aleppo” Johnson, Ron. He was basically a joke and everyone knew it but you. Thank goodness he made almost no impact on the results. For someone who claims to be politically savvy, you sure have made bad choices with your vote.

          • December 14, 2016 at 9:06 am
            Ron says:
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            Agent,

            I will explain my vote. let’s see if you are smart enough to understand.
            1. I could not, in good conscience, vote for either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump.
            2. I want a viable 3rd party, which will never happen if the sheep from both parties just keeping voting for Ds and Rs.
            3. I never vote for someone because I think they will win. I am smart enough to know that nobody’s individual vote counts, but they all matter.

            To sum up, I wanted my vote to send a message. Whether it was received or not is out of my control. However, I can sleep comfortably at night.

          • December 14, 2016 at 10:11 am
            DePolarBearables says:
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            I’m afraid for America with TrumPresident in office….

            well, only the part of America that is NORTH of the US-Canada border… the nation of Canada, which is part of the NORTH AMERICAN continent, will eventually be inundated with a HYUUUGE migration, legal or illegal, of liberals looking to flee the USA because they can’t act like mature adults and accept defeat of their failed Socialist / Communist/ Anti-Capitalist ideology.

            Poor Canucks! I feel sorry for what’s about to happen to their already Socialist nation.

          • December 14, 2016 at 11:19 am
            Agent says:
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            Tolerance, here is an absolute truth. The nation lost the day Obama took office and started his Progressive Socialist Agenda. The misery index skyrocketed year after year. Emancipation of that agenda starts on 1-20-17. Get on board with it.

            By the way, the Commie mayor of NY is offering grief counseling for all the entitlement people that were counting on Hilliary winning. Kleenex sales are booming.

          • December 14, 2016 at 2:05 pm
            bob says:
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            “Ron says:

            Agent,

            I will explain my vote. let’s see if you are smart enough to understand.
            1. I could not, in good conscience, vote for either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump.”

            Due to being mislead and moral arguments you made against Trump that were over the top in a way you never did against Obama. You didn’t analyze his plans.

            “2. I want a viable 3rd party, which will never happen if the sheep from both parties just keeping voting for Ds and Rs.”

            Gary Johnson is not a viable 3rd party. On air he cracked and nearly yelled at a journalist for using the word “illegal immigrant” and this journalist was not pro Trump. He then said the word was incendiary, and even if it was the correct terminology he was mandating the journalist use “undocumented” and refused to back down until he did. He was throwing his finger in the journalists face yelling. The guy is clearly a leftist, and is against free speech. Go look up the prominent third party guys on Youtube. They don’t like Gary Johnson. Gary Johnson also had several plans that would infringe on rights and involved government control. Third party people didn’t support this guy. They voted against Trump.

            “3. I never vote for someone because I think they will win. I am smart enough to know that nobody’s individual vote counts, but they all matter.”

            This phrase doesn’t matter.

            “To sum up, I wanted my vote to send a message. Whether it was received or not is out of my control. However, I can sleep comfortably at night.”

            What message is that? That the liberal misleading tactics worked well enough to piss people off enough to vote for no one? You’re not new. These elections aren’t new. It’s the same battle tactic, Trump isn’t new in how the democrats fought this.

            Every time they try to make it morally inconceivable to vote republican for the younger crowd. You’re falling for a trap that has been used since the 1960’s. Do better research.

          • December 14, 2016 at 2:09 pm
            bob says:
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            Prove me wrong:

            List 3 plans you like from Trump, and 3 plans, actual plans, you dislike, and connect with those why you don’t want Trump president.

            I hold this same standard. As I said, I don’t say Obama is a liar and shouldn’t be president. I say I don’t like QE, Stimulus, his inflation of the housing market. I recently said I like his potential 401k opt out plan, as an example, and I like half his idea of funding embryonic stem cell research, though he should not have replaced non embryonic stem cell research. It should have been both.

            I do not EVER base who should be president on whether or not someone lies. You keep asking me how I can vote for or believe in a liar. How do you support Bill Clinton? How did you vote for Obama? How will you vote for anyone? We focus on plans, that’s how we make logical voting habits. Not this.

        • December 13, 2016 at 4:23 pm
          Agent says:
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          President Elect Trump Ron. 38 days and counting. Withhold your criticisms until he is in action. Most people will give him the benefit of the doubt. We have seen enough of the Progressives to last a lifetime.

          • December 14, 2016 at 9:19 am
            Confused says:
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            “Withhold your criticisms until he is in action”

            Why? If he lies now (for example, saying he saved 1,100 jobs or that he saved a plant from moving to mexico) why can’t we criticize him now, before he takes office?

          • December 14, 2016 at 10:15 am
            DePolarBearables says:
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            Lies about saving jobs are not lies until those jobs actually move… which is the decision of the CEOs, not PresidentElecTrump.

            The hypocrisy of HilLIARy supporters knows no bounds.

          • December 14, 2016 at 10:29 am
            Confused says:
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            Well, I agree Hillary is a super-duper liar and a hypocrite. That’s one reason why I didn’t vote for her, so please don’t ever call me a Hillary supporter again.

            Trump’s lies are still lies though, right???

            For example, he took credit for ‘saving jobs that were going to Mexico’ but the company decided to keep the jobs here BEFORE the votes were even CAST, back when everyone thought Clinton would win in an landslide!

            So Trump had nothing to do with saving those jobs. The owner of the company called him out on it too. Yet he claimed he saved those jobs anyway.

            Why are you letting Trump off from making blatantly false statements like that?

          • December 14, 2016 at 1:21 pm
            bob says:
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            “Withhold your criticisms until he is in action”

            Why? If he lies now (for example, saying he saved 1,100 jobs or that he saved a plant from moving to mexico) why can’t we criticize him now, before he takes office?”

            Ok, I’m going to go slow for you, I thought you had hope, but again, YOU ARE BELIEVING LEFTIST LIES. Trump is not lying.

            Trump announced saving 1,100 jobs for carrier, and carrier, who doesn’t like trump, and then had someone try to publicly humiliate him and claimed that he was publicly humiliated (see lied his ass off comment which is why Trump tweeted, and then Trump who said normal things was called extreme.) claimed that the math was actually a little fuzzy and that it is really more like 850 since they are still removing another 300 or so, but here’s the thing: Those jobs are not the ones Trump said he would save. If anything, carrier got rid of another 300 to call Trump a liar. That is them struggling with someone who is fixing the system, finding any way to bring him down. What he did, was try to twist numbers. The 1,100 jobs Trump went for, he saved. Others were lost.

            Regarding the jobs from Mexico:

            WRONG. Even FORD themselves says it was a direct result of Trump that the Lincoln production is staying at that plant. Liberals tried to lie and say he was saving a plant that was never closing, but Trump referred to it by the “Lincoln” plant closing. If the Lincoln production had left, there would be no Lincoln plant. As a business owner, he referred to production, not location. And this shows the media was willing to twist the truth, NOT TRUMP. You need to start recognizing the real corruption here. You believe any lie they say.

            And how do I know this?

            I compared upwards of mother @#%@#%ing ten links on the matter, each with their own aspect and spin of truth. You can’t just read one Confused, and I can tell, you didn’t read that many.

          • December 15, 2016 at 5:31 pm
            Agent says:
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            35 days now and counting. Oh happy day!

  • December 14, 2016 at 10:23 am
    Agent says:
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    Perpetually Confused, you will see a lot of evidence the first 100 days that Trump will do the right thing for America. How about those 25,000 jobs IBM is creating in the US in the next few years? Do you not see it as a benefit to put American workers to work again? Every business leader I have talked to say they are optimistic, every marketing rep I have talked to say they are optimistic with a more friendly business atmosphere. Trump is doing exactly as he has promised which is refreshing considering what we have had for 8 very long years.

    • December 14, 2016 at 10:35 am
      Confused says:
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      I hope Trump does great. Our country sure could use it! I still think we should hold him accountable now, even before he takes office.

      If he makes a promise then breaks it (‘I will indict Hillary’) or lies about something (‘I saved the car plant from going to Mexico’), I don’t care if he’s President-Elect Trump or President Trump – he should be held accountable.

      • December 14, 2016 at 11:22 am
        Agent says:
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        Confused, you should be overjoyed. Trump means BUSINESS!

        • December 14, 2016 at 11:29 am
          Ron says:
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          Agent,

          You do not want us criticizing what President-elect Trump has done (cabinet picks) until he takes office, but want us to be overjoyed before he has even done anything?

          Interesting.

          • December 14, 2016 at 12:24 pm
            Agent says:
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            Ron, I didn’t hear you criticizing Obama for accepting the Nobel Peace Prize when he had done nothing to deserve it.

          • December 14, 2016 at 4:42 pm
            Bob says:
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            I itemized things Trump has done. Considering presidents rarely do these things before hitting office, yes.

            You should be pleased. Not over joyed. But pleased.

          • December 15, 2016 at 1:25 pm
            Ron says:
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            Agent,

            You said, “Ron, I didn’t hear you criticizing Obama for accepting the Nobel Peace Prize when he had done nothing to deserve it.”

            President Obama should not have accepted the Nobel Peace prize because it he did not earn. Happy now?

        • December 14, 2016 at 11:31 am
          Confused says:
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          Agent – I see you now understand I agree with you that I hope Trump does great and that Hillary is a liar. Now that you know I’m not posting solely to disagree and argue with you….

          If Trump lies before he’s sworn in, why do you believe we can’t criticize him for that only because he has yet to take office?

          • December 14, 2016 at 12:27 pm
            Agent says:
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            Confused, did you criticize Obama for his choices for two months prior to being sworn in? How about you Ron? How about you Tolerance? Hypocrisy, plain and simple. Get on board. There is a new day dawning.

          • December 14, 2016 at 1:01 pm
            Confused says:
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            Yes, I criticized Obama for lying before he was sworn in, and criticized him for things after he was President too. Now that I directly answered you, please respond to me:

            If Trump lies before he’s sworn in, why do you believe we can’t criticize him for that only because he has yet to take office?

          • December 14, 2016 at 2:17 pm
            bob says:
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            Perhaps because Trump isn’t lying.

            Perhaps.

            Both the issues you mentioned were not lies.

          • December 14, 2016 at 2:21 pm
            bob says:
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            Also, to break from Agent for a moment, and to show consistency:

            I do not believe Obama lied nearly as much as you think he did.

            I think he was wrong. There’s a big difference. I think he was a politician, a government control type of one, a bad one, but not a liar on most issues.

            And I don’t think focusing on his lies is wise. I think focusing on the plans is.

            Agent’s call out of his lies I don’t care about. Have you noticed when he says such things, if I agree I actually pull it away from that? Or I say nothing?

            It’s because I don’t care. Or, more recently when he called Hillary a Witch I told him not to talk like that.

            I don’t like these styles of attacks. I want to destroy the ideals. Not the person.

            The plans. Not the lie. The lie isn’t what I care about.

      • December 14, 2016 at 1:24 pm
        bob says:
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        No you don’t. You hope you can catch him in lies. You’re believing every single leftist mainstream lie.

        Do better research. You didn’t preemptively believe things like this against Obama. You’re reaching here.

        Also, with the promise to indict Hillary: You still don’t know if he will, and you don’t know why maybe he decided against it. If he stuck with it, I’m sure you would have called him dangerously thick headed in not changing his mind by the way. It is good for politicians to decide that maybe they should change their mind on an issue like that, if the evidence supports it. If he thought before she should be in jail, and found it was not reasonable after the fact, there is nothing wrong with it. You heard me right. Get over the tabloid style politics, and focus on PLANS! This is old. You NEVER acted like this with Obama.

        • December 14, 2016 at 1:43 pm
          Confused says:
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          Bob – Let’s put aside whatever bias you think I have that I’m believing every single leftist mainstream lie and get back to the point of all my recent posts, the specific question I’ve asked Agent 3 times now.

          I have been trying to get Agent to clarify his statement of “Withhold your criticisms [of Trump] until he is in action.”

          Do you think if Trump lies before he’s sworn in (assuming you have whatever evidence you need to support that he was intentionally lying), do you believe we can’t criticize him for lying only because he has yet to take office?

          Or do you agree with me that if a President-Elect lies about something (again – presume you have whatever evidence you need to support he was intentionally lying), can we criticize him before he’s actually sworn into office for lying?

        • December 14, 2016 at 2:16 pm
          bob says:
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          “Bob – Let’s put aside whatever bias you think I have that I’m believing every single leftist mainstream lie”

          No. It is entirely relevant. I’m getting sick of you doing this. You have believed two already. And it’s entirely relevant to the way you and others are mislead. If I can’t teach you how to spot lies, you will keep believing them.

          “and get back to the point of all my recent posts, the specific question I’ve asked Agent 3 times now.”

          That’s not my topic. And I get to choose it.

          “I have been trying to get Agent to clarify his statement of “Withhold your criticisms [of Trump] until he is in action.”

          Do you think if Trump lies before he’s sworn in (assuming you have whatever evidence you need to support that he was intentionally lying), do you believe we can’t criticize him for lying only because he has yet to take office?”

          I believe focusing on that is ignorant. See my recent post to Ron. Also, I held this same standard with Obama. When was the last time I called Obama a liar? Haven’t I (most of the time) said what about his plans I don’t like? If we start saying “liar” as a means to see who is a good president, everyone will preemptively seek lies. That is what you’re supporting right now, and I won’t allow it. Debate plans, not whether or not someone is a liar. This shows you bias as well, with Obama it didn’t matter that he was a liar, did it? The only time I saw anyone upset was the $2,500 savings lie. Even that one I didn’t much care about, it was the plan I cared about. Refocus your topics and concerns. This is what is killing the nation. Everyone screaming liar liar pants on fire that’s not presidential! It’s like a kids grade school fight.

          “Or do you agree with me that if a President-Elect lies about something (again – presume you have whatever evidence you need to support he was intentionally lying), can we criticize him before he’s actually sworn into office for lying?””

          No. See above. The media twists things too much, and I’ve already shown you are wrong about these lies. Often, even Obama, believes what he is saying when he says a lie, and misspeaks. I don’t believe in focusing on this. It’s ignorant. Plans. Plans. PLANS!

        • December 14, 2016 at 2:25 pm
          bob says:
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          Also, I feel I have to clarify here:

          Believing that someone lies, is different than believing a lie.

          I know it sounds like I’m contradicting myself but I’m not.

          Calling someone a liar on something does nothing.

          Saying a plan is bad, does.

          When the media says that Trump lied about how many jobs he saved, that is exactly the lie that needs to be thrown out, and it goes in tandem with people calling presidents liars.

          They are the same.

          What specific action that Trump took in that scenario do you disagree with? Should he not have saved the 800 some jobs? If it is the fact that someone perceives he “lied” then you throw out the good, and the data, and focus on the possibility of the lie? This is unacceptable. I’ve read this by the way. They admit he kept 1100 jobs, but that another 300 are leaving now which they say should be deducted from jobs saved. That is misleading, as the 1100 Trump shot for, he got. The company then moved another 300 likely to call him a liar, and he gets hit with it, precisely because the goal was to cause people to call people liars, rather than focus on the action.

          We should not be looking left, when they throw out a decoy. Stay focused. Don’t be deluded.

        • December 14, 2016 at 2:46 pm
          bob says:
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          As I said, each link only had part of the story, most links however did not include this.

          http://www.recode.net/2016/11/18/13674638/trump-ford-mexico-lincoln-mkc

          The statement directly from Ford stating they acted due to Trump.

          Then this one tried to spin it by saying the plant was never moving.

          When you look this up, you should IMMEDIATELY trust Trump and be upset with the government and media at large.

          Nearly EVERY source didn’t include this statement from Ford, and one of the only ones that did, tried to focus on Trump saying he saved the “Lincoln Plant” that was never moving. Again, he referred to it by production, not by location. Trump didn’t lie, but the media tried damn hard to make it into a lie. And nearly every single source didn’t include the Ford statement that it was due to Trump.

          How could you possibly say this doesn’t show an extreme issue?

          And I have several examples just like this.

          • December 14, 2016 at 2:56 pm
            bob says:
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            That item 2 number by the way is actually 800 jobs for taxes, since I allowed you to remove the 300 from those numbers.

        • December 14, 2016 at 2:55 pm
          bob says:
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          Confused,

          So now I will ask YOU the questions:

          Why are we not giving Trump credit for:

          1. Saving 1,100 jobs (regardless of whether another 300 left, he saved the 1,100 he went for.)
          2. The additional taxes that will be brought in by the government for those jobs (Carrier pays $40,000 per year, if we assume they only get 15% including federal, social security, and medicare taxes, that is 4.8 million in revenues per year, as opposed to the $700,000 in tax credits they got. Bernie said the government got a bad deal. That’s a lie. This is precisely why keeping jobs here will help America.

          3. Reducing the amount of Ford jobs going to Mexico.

          4. Making a deal that will bring in $50 billion of new investments to the U.S. before he is even in office.

          Instead,

          You’re calling him a liar on items 1 and 3, are just plain ignoring item 4, and never even thought of item 2.

          And I guarantee you, if this was a democrat, you wouldn’t be making this big of errors. I’m not a fool, and actually, neither is agent. He is partisan, but he sees this last concept I’m saying. He’s just not saying it well enough to you, to prove you are for a fact biased.

          Fix it. I’m getting tired of having to educate you.

  • December 14, 2016 at 1:09 pm
    Agent says:
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    It is funny Confused, but I remember 0 posts where you criticized Obama before or after he was sworn in. All I ever got from Ron was that he disagreed with “some” of his policies. Of course, he didn’t name any.

    • December 14, 2016 at 1:36 pm
      Confused says:
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      Well, it took you about 12 times of me posting that I didn’t cast a single vote for Obama before you remembered it and stopped saying I voted for him.

      Also, I said Obamacare was a super-duper failure about 12 times before you finally remembered that I wasn’t saying it is great and perfect.

      Point is – just because you don’t remember me saying something does not mean I never said it.

      Let me try this again since I have directly answered you, have refrained from insults, kept this on-topic and would REALLY like you to clarify your earlier remark:

      If Trump lies before he’s sworn in (assuming you have sufficient evidence to support he was intentionally lying), why do you believe we can’t criticize him for that only because he has yet to take office?

      • December 14, 2016 at 3:02 pm
        Agent says:
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        Are you going to believe the radical left wing media when they say Trump is lying? They were thoroughly discredited during the election. Which media are you going to read or listen to? My guess is that you often read Huff Post, Media Matters or Moveon.org. How about the NY Times?

        By the way, Trump isn’t lying when he says he will Make America Great again. Take that to your liberal bank.

        • December 14, 2016 at 3:10 pm
          Confused says:
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          Agent – you originally said we can’t criticize Trump until he’s sworn in.

          Why can’t we criticize Trump’s actions, plans and words which happen before he takes office? You still haven’t explained that.

          • December 14, 2016 at 4:20 pm
            Agent says:
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            Confused, you can criticize him all you want if that makes you happy. It will also make you a very small man and not worthy of even a reply. I can see how you are wearing out your welcome with Bob who has tried to help you along. How about you coming over to the right side for a while instead of doing your left thing?

          • December 14, 2016 at 4:52 pm
            Confused says:
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            “How about you coming over to the right side for a while instead of doing your left thing?”

            Okay.

            I DID NOT VOTE FOR OBAMA – NOT EVEN ONCE

            OBAMACARE IS A SUPER-DUPER FAILURE

            I DID NOT VOTE FOR HILLARY – NOT EVEN ONCE

            HILLARY IS A SUPER-DUPER LIAR

            “you can criticize him all you want if that makes you happy.”

            Come on – that’s not what I have been asking! Forget about me.

            YOU said Trump can’t be criticized until he’s President.

            Can YOU explain why YOU believe that?

            What does being sworn into an office have to do with holding people accountable for their actions?

            I want to know why YOU think what YOU said.

            So forget about me in your reply.

            If Trump does something Agent abhors in December 2016, does Agent think Agent can call him out on it, or is it Agent’s stance that Agent can’t say he’s done anything Agent disagrees with until Trump is President?

          • December 14, 2016 at 4:55 pm
            Bob says:
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            “What does being sworn into an office have to do with holding people accountable for their actions? ”

            Replace “actions” with “supposed lies”.

            You still haven’t admitted your supposed lies, were actually not lies. You’re now arguing on a general sense implying Agent won’t hold Trump accountable for lies. The actual truth is he won’t hold him accountable for things that aren’t lies, so why won’t you admit they aren’t lies? It seems you are obsessed with creating lies, ergo why Agent is hostile to you.

            Agents in the right on this one. You’re in the wrong. When he says come to the left, even though you say what you did above, you’re holding an absurd standard to Trump.

          • December 14, 2016 at 4:58 pm
            Bob says:
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            “If Trump does something Agent abhors in December 2016, does Agent think Agent can call him out on it, or is it Agent’s stance that Agent can’t say he’s done anything Agent disagrees with until Trump is President?”

            Also, he’s responding to your comments that are incorrect.

            It is incorrect to say he won’t say anything he doesn’t like about Trump. When he responds to you, it makes sense he would direct what is incorrect about what you’re getting wrong about Trump.

            You’re thinking in the wrong terms, in a way you don’t for democrats, and this is because you have a bias against the people, conservatives, themselves, or just Agent possibly.

            If it is just agent then you’re basically being absurd to agent, and right now, you really need to admit that and stop this.

            You’re acting like a child right now. Not agent. You.

          • December 14, 2016 at 5:28 pm
            Agent says:
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            Confused, stop screaming at me! It is very child like. You are off on one of your tangents again that you have done repeatedly for several years now. We have told you to grow up numerous times and stop using leftist links or following the disgraced Ron for talking points. That ideology just got beat. Help make America Great again by agreeing with Conservatives. If you keep this up, Bob will disown you.

          • December 15, 2016 at 1:27 pm
            bob says:
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            I actually understated Trump’s jobs deals. I thought Softbank was 25,000. It is 50,000.

            I also missed U.S. Steel. The bigger question is not why Agent isn’t holding Trump accountable. It is why you aren’t thanking Trump for this and are trying to say other things are causing it:

            http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/12/14/trump-boom-companies-vow-tens-thousands-us-jobs-trump-win/

            This is 86,000 jobs so far.

            If he gets Apple to keep half of the jobs they outsource to China that is 400,000 to 500,000 depending on the year.

            And this isn’t including the rest of the tech giants and jobs shipped over seas. Many times it is to get a better tax rate.

            If he even gets 2 million jobs total, the amount of tax revenues we will have additional will be 12 billion at absolute minimum, with 12 billion less in spending, of course, since they will make at minimum an average of $40,000 a year and 15% total tax including medicare federal and social security is low. (That income number is lower than the national average so don’t you dare criticize that number)

      • December 14, 2016 at 3:03 pm
        bob says:
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        As I’ve shown many times:

        Because you’re not doing your research to find out if he is actually a liar.

        You’re doing poor fact checking and are seeking to see him as a liar.

        You never would have researched a supposed Obama lie this poorly. I realize it is hard to find (googling items to find the aspect where Ford admitted it was due to Trump is hard, I had to look through more than 10 links as Google doesn’t show it in nearly any of the links that pop up. Scary, isn’t it?) but you should realize when something is off.

        I know manipulation methods and marketing. When it sounds too good or too bad to be true? It often is.

        • December 14, 2016 at 5:34 pm
          Agent says:
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          Bob, it wall comes down to someone knowing right from wrong. Progressivism has failed and been dismissed. Trump, the non-politician handed the professional politicians their head on a platter. He beat 16 of them in the primaries and then took down the worst of them in the General. That was even with the corrupt media cheering her on and dismissing his chances. This has to be the biggest upset in Presidential politics in history. More power to him and let’s get this country moving again.

          • December 14, 2016 at 6:17 pm
            Bob says:
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            I hope so, with regards to Trump.

            And it certainly was an upset. I was already prepared for Clinton to win.

            I was barely watching the election until someone randomly asked me who I thought was going to win. And I said “Huh, Hillary. Trump doesn’t really stand a chance” and she kind of looked worried.

            Immediately I checked my phone. This was right when everything started going Trump’s way, and at first I made the same mistake as everyone else:

            I was thinking ok, his only shot is Nevada, Ohio, Colorado, and Florida, he needs them all.

            When it became he was losing Nevada and Colorado I gave up again, until I noticed Wisconsin and Michigan. To which I basically said “holy crap, the rustic belt. I missed this!”. And then once I said that I said “Holy crap!!! HE DOESN’T NEED COLORADO OR NEVADA!!!!”

            And then, I bumped into another guy who was dismal at the fact that it was nearly called. And just to not get into a fight, I said “It’s unlikely she will lose all of those too close to call states, don’t get too upset about it” but I walked off and out of there telling my wife “He’s got. He’s won. I don’t believe it. I really don’t believe it!”

            And I proceeded to wait for them to be called. It was an amazing day, and if Trump acts as I think he will, it will be an amazing moment in U.S. history.

          • December 15, 2016 at 11:20 am
            Agent says:
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            Bob, on election night after the media all but proclaimed Hilliary a shew in early on, I decided to wait until 9:30 Central time to even check in on it thinking they would have called it and just see how bad it ended up being. Much to my delight, the looks on the Fox faces were priceless, especially Megyn Kelley. How can this be? The Electoral was projected to be a landslide, the popular a landslide and suddenly it wasn’t. Smart political team looked as dumb as a box of rocks. They should all take a pay cut for missing this so badly. It was also interesting to show the Hilliary headquarters sitting there bawling their eyes out. Podesta had to come out there and tell them to go home since Hilliary was in no shape to give a concession speech.

  • December 15, 2016 at 9:38 am
    Confused says:
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    I have done my best to explain multiple times what I was asking Agent to clarify and why I was asking him to clarify it, yet he still has not provided a direct answer.

    I don’t understand why he thinks we can’t be critical of an elected official until they’re actually sworn into office. That is what he said and that’s what I wanted to understand, but I guess I never will as he has reverted to insulting me regurgitating talking points.

    For what it’s worth: the top two answers on the board were (1) I did not mean that literally and we CAN criticize elected officials at any time regardless of them actually holding a political office at the time or not and (2) I literally meant what I said and here’s why I believe it ____

    Regardless, I shall no longer pursue clarification of his statement and wish you all a Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays and/or Happy New Year.

    • December 15, 2016 at 11:24 am
      Agent says:
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      News Flash Confused. Trump is not in charge yet, hasn’t implemented any policies, the cabinet hasn’t done anything yet. Feel free to criticize all you want after 1-20-17.

      • December 15, 2016 at 11:49 am
        Confused says:
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        You are still not getting it Agent, but like I already said – I shall no longer pursue clarification and wish you all a Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays and/or Happy New Year.

        • December 15, 2016 at 12:48 pm
          Bob says:
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          “I don’t understand why he thinks we can’t be critical of an elected official until they’re actually sworn into office. That is what he said and that’s what I wanted to understand, but I guess I never will as he has reverted to insulting me regurgitating talking points. ”

          You don’t understand because you have an extreme bias you won’t stop doing. READ MY WORDS HERE and FOCUS.

          What you are saying, currently, is incorrect. When he says wait until he’s in office to criticism him, he is saying wait until something is actually done. Because of your jump to find something to criticize, YOU WERE WRONG ON EVERY, SINGLE, LIE, you said Trump did. Not some. EVERY. To be wrong on EVERY lie shows you are before he is even in office scrambling to believe lies.

          THUS

          WAIT UNTIL HE IS IN OFFICE,

          SLOW DOWN,

          AND FIND OUT WHAT IS ACTUALLY THE CASE.

          That is what Agent is truly saying.

          It seems you’re focusing on the concept of being able to insult (not criticize, considering you got all the info wrong) a president before he’s in office, and Agent is well aware you did not do this with Obama.

          • December 15, 2016 at 1:19 pm
            Ron says:
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            Bob,

            President-elect Trump is already doing things. Did he not save jobs at Ford and Carrier that were to be going to Mexico? Did he not convince Japan to invest $50 billion and create 50,000 new jobs in the U.S.? (At least that is what he us telling us he did.) Did he not appoint several cabinet members and other government posts, pending Senate approval?

          • December 15, 2016 at 1:36 pm
            bob says:
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            “Ron says:

            Bob,

            President-elect Trump is already doing things. Did he not save jobs at Ford and Carrier that were to be going to Mexico? Did he not convince Japan to invest $50 billion and create 50,000 new jobs in the U.S.? (At least that is what he us telling us he did.) Did he not appoint several cabinet members and other government posts, pending Senate approval?”

            Yes he did, and you in this very page tried to say he’s taking credit for things he didn’t do. These actions are extremely uncommon for presidents, exactly why looking for lies, instead of actions, is absurd and not acceptable.

            You yourself just posted an article, and then wrote about it in a way that contradicted the article regarding IBM jobs, and tried to say it’s not due to Trump that they are staying and tried to call him a liar.

            Trying to find things to criticize a guy for, before he is president, and poorly fact checking, is not ok.

            You criticized people for it with Obama, and I just proved that Confused was wrong on ALL points that he was criticizing Trump about. You’re fighting for what then exactly? The general ability to criticize? And isn’t that what you don’t like about republicans?

            This is an absurd tangled mess here, that is revealing extreme issues with you and even confused, who I consider to be in the realm of good information, on a general basis. What is upsetting is to witness democrats already misleading people like him, and people like you. When you aren’t triggered, you’re smarter than this. You’re on your toes more than this. What you did with Obama was right. I’m going to go out of Agent and conservatives box for a moment and say that.

            It is right to shrug off and remove absurd commentary about Obama. Agent often says things that are non issues about Obama, and or calls Hillary a witch, or whatever else, a liar, etc, things I’ve said I don’t care about, and things you should remove. Does this make you feel more comfortable with what my goal is here?

            I don’t believe in preemptively throwing the kitchen sink at people over small things. As I’ve said many times, let’s weigh the actions, and not seek out tabloid level politics, and claims of liar liar pants on fire.

            Does that sound fair?

          • December 15, 2016 at 1:39 pm
            bob says:
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            You’re better than this Ron. You know I’m right here.

            Don’t let frustrations with Agent, and the misleading pulls of media get you distracted.

          • December 15, 2016 at 1:41 pm
            bob says:
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            And if it helps you put down that guard for a moment I’ll compare myself:

            I let ACTU and UW frustrations diminish my goals and points often as well. I’m not saying you’re worse than me. I’m saying to keep on top of it. We’ve got a lot of good debate to be had here. If we do it right.

  • December 15, 2016 at 1:54 pm
    Confused says:
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    Bob “When he says wait until he’s in office to criticism him, he is saying wait until something is actually done.”

    Ron “President-elect Trump is already doing things. Did he not….”

    And with that statement, Ron understands why I was asking Agent to clarify his remark. However, like I already said, I shall no longer pursue clarification of his statement and wish you all a Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays and/or Happy New Year.

    • December 15, 2016 at 2:59 pm
      Bob says:
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      “And with that statement, Ron understands why I was asking Agent to clarify his remark. ”

      And with that you don’t understand the issue at hand. I have clarified myself, and you have done poorly in defending yourself.

      Actions. Lies. Actions. Lies. Actions! Lies?

      Do you get it yet?

      With that neither of you understand Agent, but he understands you guys just fine. And Agent as usual spoke poorly, but the concept here is:

      You’re focusing more on supposed lies, that you cannot confirm, and the general concept to be able to hold him accountable for lies, and you’re ignoring his actions that saved jobs, while using that to say you can criticize him about lies.

      You’re in a tangled mess, that I understand just fine, Agent doesn’t, you don’t, and Ron doesn’t.

      You’re saying because we can give praise for those actions, that we should be able to criticize him for lies. However:

      A: The lies you pointed out aren’t lies.
      B: They aren’t actions.

      So saying “You gave him credit for this, why can’t we call him a liar??” is just immature and for points.

      Why can’t you call him a liar? Because the issues you rose aren’t issues, and you’re trying to find ones because you NEED to criticize him before he’s president, and Agent is telling you to stop going over board criticizing, but now you’re obsessed with how he said this, because you believe he contradicted himself, whereas the truth is he spoke poorly.

      This is why methods of speech annoy me, people prey on them, and that’s what you’re doing with Agent, and this is why I just said IT’S NOT OK.

      You know darn well what he means. Why is it ok to be so obsessed with finding faults with a president that you are getting your fact checking wrong? You as well as Ron?

      You need to be tempered here, do you deny you had these facts wrong, and Ron didn’t read his own link regarding IBM which proves it is due to Trump?

      Knock it off Confused, or you will continue to be mislead, because you want to find fault with conservatives. Ergo, slow down, fact check, stop trying to find faults before someone is president. Finding credit with actions is not synonymous with trying to find out where someone is a liar before they are president and reaching for straws. False equivalency. Get your head on straight before you reply to me. I get the topic just fine. You don’t.

      • December 16, 2016 at 12:29 pm
        Agent says:
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        Bob, when I was in Jr. High, I took a typing course to learn the keyboard. The teacher gave us a simple exercise to practice and made us do it over and over until we got fast. Following is what we typed: Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country. Patriotic and easy to type. I never forgot it.

        Trump came to the aid of this country just in the nick of time. I applaud him for his courage and titanium spine in view of what his opposition has tried to do to him. The country is in the process of healing and moving forward now. Perhaps the sore losers will wake up and smell the coffee at some point. If not, Canada is open for business and Trudeau will be just what they are looking for in a leader.

    • December 15, 2016 at 3:08 pm
      Bob says:
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      ““Withhold your criticisms until he is in action””

      That was Agent’s comment. Action. Supposed lies. Action. Supposed lies.

      The jobs Trump saved, are in action of being president.

      The lies the media is calling him regarding, are how he phrased things.

      Action. Supposed made up liberal lies.

      You’re saying what he said that was a lie. Agent is saying judge him on his actions, when he is president.

      I think this is fair. Why can’t you hold him to lies?

      A: You’re prone to be wrong.
      B: The media is trying everything they can to call him a liar, and is doing a good job of it. So the truth is, you don’t know what is a lie and what isn’t.
      C: If we look at the ACTIONS after he is president, and see jobs for example, we will know what he can do as a president through ACTION. Not whether or not he was wrong about how many jobs he saved at carrier.

      Actions. Supposed lies. Actions. SUPPOSED LIES.

      Do you get it yet Confused? How much do I have to hammer this home?

      You’re comparing apples to oranges.

      Why can’t I call Trump a liar, me me me, it’s so childish.

      You’re conflating words with other words as well, while saying Agent is doing a bad job, but agent is only doing a bad job of replying clearly to what is a conflated garbled mess that you created! Not him!

      So focus your mind, and get back to the true point.

      • December 15, 2016 at 3:30 pm
        Confused says:
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        Like I already said, I shall no longer pursue clarification of his statement and wish you all a Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays and/or Happy New Year.

        • December 15, 2016 at 3:53 pm
          Bob says:
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          Like you said:

          You’ve essentially arrogantly insisted you have the last word and refused to reply past that point.

          You were wrong, and Agent was right, and this is a big issue.

          Right now you won’t focus on Trump’s good things because you’re worked up about being certain to hold him accountable, of which, agent is right to criticize your actions. And until you admit the flaws of those actions, you’ll get no relief from me, for the next several weeks and every time this issue comes up.

          So I suggest you solve it now, rather than arrogantly knock over the chess pieces, try to fake kindness, and then say you won’t debate the topic anymore.

          What you did wasn’t ok, and it doesn’t just go away considering the ramifications of what you tried to do to Agent’s image and credibility.

        • December 15, 2016 at 3:55 pm
          Bob says:
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          Also funny how Agent must answer your questions to be credible, but when someone questions you here…

          You dodged it entirely, on real issues. Not just an issue of whether or not we can insult a president before getting into office.

          I’m actually debating actual things Trump did that could be good.

          And all you’re debating on is pointless drivel, about how we need to be ready to criticize Trump, donchaknow? Abhorrent. Completely abhorrent. I’m focusing on this and what you just did, because it will be impossible to show what Trump does good if you keep doing this.

          It needs to be dealt with.

          • December 15, 2016 at 4:30 pm
            Confused says:
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            You and I have diametrically opposed views of this situation, bob. I do not agree with how you’re classifying my posts, actions, words, and intent, and you do not agree with anything I’ve said about this topic.

            We’re at a standstill on this one, buddy. Neither of us has budged at all on this matter. So do you want me to lie and just say “I agree bob. You’re totally right. I’m 100% wrong. I’ll never do that again. You win. I’m sorry to you and Agent” when that would be disingenuous? No, I don’t think you want that.

            I thought it would be best if we stop beating a dead horse (200+ comments, multiple paragraphs, no change in arguments) and try to end on some sincere pleasantries. Which I’ll try to do again.

            I wish you all a Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays and/or Happy New Year.

          • December 15, 2016 at 5:15 pm
            Agent says:
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            Give up yet Bob? I tried to warn you on several occasions. The young man prefers the left side and will not change for any reason you give him. Somebody radicalized him in college and it is deeply ingrained. All he wants to do is criticize anything Conservative. Good try and Merry Christmas, not Happy Holiday.

          • December 16, 2016 at 8:25 am
            Confused says:
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            “All he wants to do is criticize anything Conservative”

            Yet I voted for Republicans in the last 5 mid-term elections and didn’t vote once for either Obama or Hillary. Hmmm…

          • December 16, 2016 at 1:19 pm
            Bob says:
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            I don’t perceive Confused as a leftist. Here’s my opinion:

            I have many siblings on various positions of the political spectrum. I’m most like my father. We all have elements of him but I have the most. My older brother is remnants of when my father voted for Carter, which makes sense since he’s older. He believes in leftist economic issues but doesn’t like leftist moral issues. This is what my father was when my brother moved out, so it makes sense.

            I however was 5 years younger, and I moved back in after my first move out. The second move out time period is when my father changed, and we changed at the same time to be economically conservative. However, at the same time I began to not be anti pot for example and started picking up libertarian tones at the time. My sister is conservative on both ends. Now I will come back full circle here. I believe Confused is most likely close to my sister on the political spectrum. She didn’t like Trump either. I imagine he’s socially more liberal by a bit, but the reason I bring up my sister is this:

            She believes the leftist lies about Trump, and thus becomes useful to the left without being a leftist.

            That is what I think Confused is. I think he’s a good guy, and he wants to be balanced. He doesn’t want to be extreme. In that, he makes errors and doesn’t defend aspects of the right very well. In fact, he attacks them.

            However, if he didn’t attack them, there wouldn’t be people like me to defend them.

            So while I am insisting he come back to Earth on this one, I do not consider Confused a leftist. I consider him a conservative seeking truth willing to hold conservatives accountable, if not a little too much.

  • December 16, 2016 at 3:18 pm
    Agent says:
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    Good try Bob only it is not very good analysis. He is far too willing to post leftist comments, has not one good word to offer on Conservatives and their viewpoints and often trolls to leftist positions and apparently Ron is his hero. And no one remembers a single criticism of Obama emanating from him. I have a memory like a Republican elephant and it didn’t happen. Sorry, but your famous research is flawed on Confused.

    • December 16, 2016 at 3:32 pm
      Confused says:
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      Agent – well, it took you about 12 times of me posting that I didn’t cast a single vote for Obama before you remembered it and stopped saying I voted for him twice.

      Also, I said Obamacare was a super-duper failure about 12 times before you finally remembered that I wasn’t saying it is great and perfect.

      Point is – just because you don’t remember me saying something does not mean I never said it.

    • December 16, 2016 at 3:35 pm
      Confused says:
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      PS – Cam Neely was my childhood hero and Ron Swanson is my hero as an adult. I hope you will not try and argue Ron is a progressive liberal democrat who loves big government.

      • December 16, 2016 at 3:36 pm
        Confused says:
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        technical edit: “not try and argue Ron is a progressive liberal…” was referencing Ron Swanson, not the Ron who posts here.

    • December 16, 2016 at 4:22 pm
      Agent says:
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      Bob, so who will be your next reclamation project since you struck completely out on Confused? How about Tolerance Matters? You seem to have a bit of rapport with him.

      • December 16, 2016 at 4:30 pm
        Confused says:
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        Happy Holidays to you & yours, Agent!

      • December 16, 2016 at 4:38 pm
        Bob says:
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        Just a few weeks ago he thought I was quite extreme, he probably changed his mind after the UW and ACTU incidents. I’m probably going to take a break though. This has been way too much posting this last week and a half.

        I want to relax for the Holidays without having to deal with Russian conspiracy theories etc.

        • December 16, 2016 at 4:43 pm
          Confused says:
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          I wish you all a Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays and/or Happy New Year!

          • December 16, 2016 at 4:48 pm
            Bob says:
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            Same to you Confused.

        • December 19, 2016 at 1:34 pm
          UW says:
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          I see you started your break in the other thread after getting crushed. Enjoy your Christmas.

          Hopefully the immigrants and children of immigrants fearing this could be their last Christmas together, elderly people facing social security cuts wondering if they will be able to afford heat or food other than cat food next year, people who won’t have health insurance because they don’t make enough for tax credits to matter, the people who won’t be able to afford health insurance after Obamacare is repealed and cpi is outpaced by the inflation in health prices, and anybody else facing their last normal holiday season in years enjoy theirs too.

        • December 19, 2016 at 3:36 pm
          UW says:
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          Which conspiracy theories, do you have diverging debunking the assessments of almost, if not every intelligence agency in the US? If so you should bring it forward, investigators would love to see it, as well as how a borderline illiterate, with no knowledge about anything came into information they didn’t have.

          Or more likely, like most Trump supporters, you are woefully ignorant about basic realities (look at the recent PPP poll, and then of course disregard it. Or better yet, just lie about reading it so as to not break your precedent) , and as I’ve shown, a hard core authoritarian.



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