Texas Agent, I own an AK-47 – would I be allowed to bring that in for hunting season as well, or are the rifles allowed restricted to hunting rifles only?
Yeah, like pull the trigger. Unless he had a double-action with the pin filed down, then he could have discharged it by pulling the hammer back and letting it go. There’s a slim chance of discharge when you drop or severely jostle a weapon, but I’m not finding anything in this story that leads up to a weapon firing – other than he pulled the trigger. Idiot.
Completely off the wall idea. What if there was a pen in the same pocket and the pen was through the trigger guard. Would it be possible to make a movement that would cause the pen to pull the trigger? Far fetched I know, but then we all hear that the truth is stranger than fiction.
so…..what’s the deal? WHY WAS THE GUN IN THE OFFICE…..I’m thinking that his job would be in jeopardy. Maybe in TX you get to walk around with guns in your pockets…. definitely an idiot no matter the reason
So since he deviated from his employment with this action (unless he was an adjuster….we all have guns in our desks, by the way), we can assume that the WC carrier will decline the claim.
Then we can watch for the bigger idiot to come forth…..the TDI/DWC hearing officer who will find some situation to give this guy coverage under the Act.
This must have been a 45 automatic pistol. A 45 revolver is one huge piece of equipment. The automatic is one of the safest weapons around. Two of the three safety’s are activated by gripping the pistol. Having said that, this idiot should be summarily dismissed and charged with public endangerment.
He must have been handling/playing/goofing with the weapon to get it to discharge but I’m sure he’ll never tell the true story.
Gun foes, go ahead and use this as fodder for your silly campaign to eliminate guns in America. I’ll counter by showing that places like Texas that allow citizens to carry firearms have fewer rampage shooting incidents (like Virginia Tech) that have banned weapons.
Good chance that when his gun discharged others in the office were drawing theirs!
Seems like this employer needs to find some of the off-duty security people from the local airport to screen the employees. In Texas they might collect so many firearms that the resale of confiscated weapons might become the largest profit center for the company. It sure would be a nice means to smooth out the profit swings associated with underwriting cycles.
How do we know he “deviated from his employment” by carrying a gun?
People carry all sorts of things to the office that they don’t normally use in the conduct of their work, but unless his company has a policy banning guns in the office (many companies don’t have such a policy), how is this any different than tripping on the cord of an iPod in his pocket?
Of course, if it turns out he really wasn’t licensed to carry a concealed weapon, and therefore injured himself in the commission of a criminal act, that’s a different question.
Sure, but pulling the trigger won’t make a gun go off if the safety is engaged.
It could be this was a gun with a non-functional safety, or a manual safety that he stupidly didn’t set before stuffing it in a pocket, or that whatever objects were in the pocket somehow disengaged the safety before pulling the trigger.
But the most plausible answer is still that he was fooling around with the gun and pulled the trigger himself.
A 45 automatic isn’t something that’s “usual and incidental” to working in an office nor is it customary to carry in an office. For these reasons, this idiot should not qualify for WC. If Cowboys think it’s still the wild west and they must pack heat to protect themselves, that’s their business. (if everybody there carries, who do they think they’re protecting themselves against?) Nobody needs a gun in an office unless you’ve been messing where you shouldn’t and know for a fact that somebody is looking for you. Since this is an isolate event, it isn’t worth worrying about.
Stop trying to figure out how it was an accident. It wasn’t. Just like all of the gun injuries reported on the local news. They always say that it accidentally went off – like guns are these fragile things and if you bump them wrong they will just go off. They aren’t, and they don’t. Guns are usually designed so that it is not easy to go off, it must be deliberate. The media always makes it sound like it was an accident or that guns are dangerous and just go off because the media wants guns to be banned and so does the government. That way we won’t be able to have a revolution against the goverment. It’s that simple. Don’t believe that it was an accident. It is always from someone pulling the trigger or from someone really mishandling the firearm with complete disregard for it.
The Ft. Worth newspaper article states this happened at the Al Boenker agency. He’s known for his ads stating insurance companies are stupid (see http://www.insurancecompaniesarestupid.com).
I work for an insurance company in Missouri. We just got the right to carry concealed weapons a couple years ago and as soon as the law passed our company put up signs all over the office banning weapons in th office.
This wouldn’t be covered by workers’ compensation because the injury did not occur during the normal course of business, nor was it caused by the work environment. OSHA recordability might be in question, I don’t know if Texas is a state-plan state, but again since it’s not work related it shouldn’t be recordable.
And we can’t say he wasn’t a Texan. Maybe he hit up a drive-through liquor store on the way to work. (sarcasm)
Although Texas IS a concealed carry State, the legislature passed a law stating that you could legally carry your gun to/from your car from your residence or place of employment as long as you weren’t a street gang member or as long as you weren;t committing a crime.
You have to be LICENSED to carry it on your person.
As far as “a pen thru the trigger” – even if the saftey(s) did NOT work, I think there is still a 7-12 pound pull on the trigger to cause it to fire. Even if it were “cocked and locked”, you would STILL have to pull the trigger with some amount of force.
Gun Guy you need to get your facts straight on TX and shooting rampages. TX started them. Try the Tower Sniper event in 1966 at the University of Texas at Austin. Charles Whitman killed 14 and 31 wounded. He did this after murdering his mother and wife. Prevelance of weapons in TX sure helped those 47 people.
Charles Whitman was an ex-Marine. He had a trunk full of weapons and ammo with him. Shot one fellow, a thousand yards away, getting a shave in a barber shop.
Blaming this on Texas laws?
Maybe we should ban teaching Marines to shoot, and require flak jackets while in barber shops.
After reading some of the stupid comments I feel the need to explain our policy on firearms at our Texas agency.
1) No rifles or shot guns are allowed at an employee’s desk with the exception of .410 or 20 guage revolving pistols and shotguns of any guage under 20 inches and over 18.5 inches in barrel length. Rifles and shotguns may be brought to work and placed in the gun display case during any legal hunting season the state schedules. Due to the wild hog problem and terroists hunting season the state has opened the season to 365 days. Therefore rifles and shot guns of any guage or caliber are now allowed.
2) No crappy cheap pistols will be allowed. Colt is the weapon of choice due to tradition and effectiveness in indian fighting. S&W, Ruger, and other pistols of similar quality are preferred. Nothing under 9 mm if possible.
By the way Charles Whitman was held at bay after the idiot was penned down by Texans who had high powered rifles on the rack in their pickups. The Austin police at the time were mostly carrying .38 caliber pistols which could not even reach him. Whitman had a brain tumor so please don’t even think about blaming the Marines. If you thinks Texas is so bad we are glad you don’t and won’t live here.
I learned to hunt when I was 11 and am familiar with all types of rifles, shotguns and pistols, both revolvers and automatics. I choose not to pursue hunting and prefer shooting golf. Having said that, I don’t care if you or anyone else want to keep a gun for sport, protection or whatever and it’s not a problem for me whether or not law enforcement has AK-47s or .38s. But I know enough about firearms to know that pistols do not “go off” accidentally, or at least I sure can’t understand how. I know that a loaded rifle or shotgun, with a round in the chamber, all locked, loaded and cocked, can discharge accidentlly….but a pistol? Nah, the guy was playing with it and is too red-faced to admit it. WC denied, charges filed, end of my take on the story….
AK-47, AR-15, M-60, These weapons are all fine. The AK-47 should not be shot in the fully automatic position within the office due to problems with accuracy in the full auto position. We find that the 12 guage in our best weapon for close quarter defense. Also, the 12 guage which is also most excellent for bird hunting may be outfitted with slugs for deer hunting or shooting out the engine block of a fleeing robber. Hey why not take out both the robber and the vehicle at the same time. In Texas we have a saying that if you were only able to own 5 guns the must haves are a Colt revolver, 9mm or larger automatic pistol, 22 rifle, shotgun, 30-06, .223, A-15. Oops I guess there really are 7 must have weapons in Texas.
Hey, I thought you were allowed to hunt 72 year old attorneys in Texas? Or was that Utah? the older the better, I’m told, they sometimes look like quail, don’t they? :-P
The CRIME RATE sure has dropped since the law was implemented..the bad guys never know who is carrying and who is not. Better to be an ARMED citizen than a peasant.
Just happen to have TWO semi-automatics in my bottom desk drawer.
A ‘required’ gun safety course may have prevented this accident.
I’ve been an agent in the Oak Cliff/Duncanville section of Dallas, Texas for 28 years and have always kept several guns in my office – all within easy/quick access. I’ve also been an NRA certified instructor for about 15 years (went thru the course when my son was in Boy Scouts). The instructor’s course took months of study and weekly meetings. From first to last the main topic was safety – what to do and what not to do with a gun. Although I already knew much of this information from being in the Army, it was a good refresher.
It is often not what a person did with a gun that causes an accidental discharge but, rather what they failed to do. I feel that any company that doesn’t want guns on their premises should have a written policy stating so and require the employees to sign it. If the company will allow guns on their premises then, they should require those employees to complete a firearms training course and get certified. Gun certification courses focus on safety – not marksmanship. If an innocent bystander had been injured or killed I am sure all of these remarks would have a much different tone to them.
I’ve handled a gun once in my life; a big-a** shotgun for bird hunting. I FAILED to discharge the gun several times b/c I kept forgetting to switch the safety OFF before pulling the trigger. This is not an accident.
No, I don’t believe that any state would allow for payment under Work Comp for this. Fortunately, none of his coworkers were injured due to this. If they had been thier injuries could be covered under the “but for” rule. But for the fact that they were in that place at that time due to thier employment, they would not have been shot.
I have given this more thought and I am going to contradict my first answer. This guy could be covered depending on the circumstances which is why WC is always gray! Why did he have the gun. Maybe the employer sponsored or condoned target practice (doubt it but it’s possible). I’d love to take the recorded statement of the claimant.
Rocco, you are correct! We have too many idiots here in Texas that think just because they grew up here that they know how to handle a gun. I have to wonder if the guy from Fort Worth (the city moto is “Where The West Begins”) that shot himself had the same attitude. When I was an active NRA instructor I got that attitude from too many people. Not just Texans but, that ‘where I grew up everybody knows how to handle a gun’. I know some fine people from the midwest and north that are good and safe gun handlers.
Mary, you’re right and depending upon the company’s policy on guns their WC policy may cover him. I know agents that don’t accept cash payments anymore as a robbery prevention measure. We normally see firearm questions on general liability apps for stores but, not all carriers ask about firearms on WC apps – they should!
Why was the gun in his pocket unless he planned on doing something with it (I guess he did do something with it!)? I once had the “pleasure” of firing an employee that carried a weapon in his bag he brought to the office. I was a bit nervous.
Hey Westemer, I was in a similar situation. We knew the guy carried a gun. We also knew he was emotionally unstable, which was one of the reasons we were letting him go…that was a very scarey day…He did throw a huge tantrum…fortunately he did not pull his gun although he did make a lot of threats.
Texas Agent, I own an AK-47 – would I be allowed to bring that in for hunting season as well, or are the rifles allowed restricted to hunting rifles only?
Yeah, like pull the trigger. Unless he had a double-action with the pin filed down, then he could have discharged it by pulling the hammer back and letting it go. There’s a slim chance of discharge when you drop or severely jostle a weapon, but I’m not finding anything in this story that leads up to a weapon firing – other than he pulled the trigger. Idiot.
Completely off the wall idea. What if there was a pen in the same pocket and the pen was through the trigger guard. Would it be possible to make a movement that would cause the pen to pull the trigger? Far fetched I know, but then we all hear that the truth is stranger than fiction.
so…..what’s the deal? WHY WAS THE GUN IN THE OFFICE…..I’m thinking that his job would be in jeopardy. Maybe in TX you get to walk around with guns in your pockets…. definitely an idiot no matter the reason
So since he deviated from his employment with this action (unless he was an adjuster….we all have guns in our desks, by the way), we can assume that the WC carrier will decline the claim.
Then we can watch for the bigger idiot to come forth…..the TDI/DWC hearing officer who will find some situation to give this guy coverage under the Act.
This must have been a 45 automatic pistol. A 45 revolver is one huge piece of equipment. The automatic is one of the safest weapons around. Two of the three safety’s are activated by gripping the pistol. Having said that, this idiot should be summarily dismissed and charged with public endangerment.
He must have been handling/playing/goofing with the weapon to get it to discharge but I’m sure he’ll never tell the true story.
Gun foes, go ahead and use this as fodder for your silly campaign to eliminate guns in America. I’ll counter by showing that places like Texas that allow citizens to carry firearms have fewer rampage shooting incidents (like Virginia Tech) that have banned weapons.
Good chance that when his gun discharged others in the office were drawing theirs!
Seems like this employer needs to find some of the off-duty security people from the local airport to screen the employees. In Texas they might collect so many firearms that the resale of confiscated weapons might become the largest profit center for the company. It sure would be a nice means to smooth out the profit swings associated with underwriting cycles.
How do we know he “deviated from his employment” by carrying a gun?
People carry all sorts of things to the office that they don’t normally use in the conduct of their work, but unless his company has a policy banning guns in the office (many companies don’t have such a policy), how is this any different than tripping on the cord of an iPod in his pocket?
Of course, if it turns out he really wasn’t licensed to carry a concealed weapon, and therefore injured himself in the commission of a criminal act, that’s a different question.
This guy was obviously NOT from Texas. Down here we know how to handle our guns. Must have been a yankee.
Could a pen have pulled the trigger?
Sure, but pulling the trigger won’t make a gun go off if the safety is engaged.
It could be this was a gun with a non-functional safety, or a manual safety that he stupidly didn’t set before stuffing it in a pocket, or that whatever objects were in the pocket somehow disengaged the safety before pulling the trigger.
But the most plausible answer is still that he was fooling around with the gun and pulled the trigger himself.
A 45 automatic isn’t something that’s “usual and incidental” to working in an office nor is it customary to carry in an office. For these reasons, this idiot should not qualify for WC. If Cowboys think it’s still the wild west and they must pack heat to protect themselves, that’s their business. (if everybody there carries, who do they think they’re protecting themselves against?) Nobody needs a gun in an office unless you’ve been messing where you shouldn’t and know for a fact that somebody is looking for you. Since this is an isolate event, it isn’t worth worrying about.
Stop trying to figure out how it was an accident. It wasn’t. Just like all of the gun injuries reported on the local news. They always say that it accidentally went off – like guns are these fragile things and if you bump them wrong they will just go off. They aren’t, and they don’t. Guns are usually designed so that it is not easy to go off, it must be deliberate. The media always makes it sound like it was an accident or that guns are dangerous and just go off because the media wants guns to be banned and so does the government. That way we won’t be able to have a revolution against the goverment. It’s that simple. Don’t believe that it was an accident. It is always from someone pulling the trigger or from someone really mishandling the firearm with complete disregard for it.
The Ft. Worth newspaper article states this happened at the Al Boenker agency. He’s known for his ads stating insurance companies are stupid (see http://www.insurancecompaniesarestupid.com).
If guns accidentally go off, then the spoons Rosie O’donnely uses for trough feeding causes her to be fat!
I work for an insurance company in Missouri. We just got the right to carry concealed weapons a couple years ago and as soon as the law passed our company put up signs all over the office banning weapons in th office.
This wouldn’t be covered by workers’ compensation because the injury did not occur during the normal course of business, nor was it caused by the work environment. OSHA recordability might be in question, I don’t know if Texas is a state-plan state, but again since it’s not work related it shouldn’t be recordable.
And we can’t say he wasn’t a Texan. Maybe he hit up a drive-through liquor store on the way to work. (sarcasm)
Although Texas IS a concealed carry State, the legislature passed a law stating that you could legally carry your gun to/from your car from your residence or place of employment as long as you weren’t a street gang member or as long as you weren;t committing a crime.
You have to be LICENSED to carry it on your person.
As far as “a pen thru the trigger” – even if the saftey(s) did NOT work, I think there is still a 7-12 pound pull on the trigger to cause it to fire. Even if it were “cocked and locked”, you would STILL have to pull the trigger with some amount of force.
Gun Guy you need to get your facts straight on TX and shooting rampages. TX started them. Try the Tower Sniper event in 1966 at the University of Texas at Austin. Charles Whitman killed 14 and 31 wounded. He did this after murdering his mother and wife. Prevelance of weapons in TX sure helped those 47 people.
Charles Whitman was an ex-Marine. He had a trunk full of weapons and ammo with him. Shot one fellow, a thousand yards away, getting a shave in a barber shop.
Blaming this on Texas laws?
Maybe we should ban teaching Marines to shoot, and require flak jackets while in barber shops.
Obviously the soft market was getting to him.
After reading some of the stupid comments I feel the need to explain our policy on firearms at our Texas agency.
1) No rifles or shot guns are allowed at an employee’s desk with the exception of .410 or 20 guage revolving pistols and shotguns of any guage under 20 inches and over 18.5 inches in barrel length. Rifles and shotguns may be brought to work and placed in the gun display case during any legal hunting season the state schedules. Due to the wild hog problem and terroists hunting season the state has opened the season to 365 days. Therefore rifles and shot guns of any guage or caliber are now allowed.
2) No crappy cheap pistols will be allowed. Colt is the weapon of choice due to tradition and effectiveness in indian fighting. S&W, Ruger, and other pistols of similar quality are preferred. Nothing under 9 mm if possible.
By the way Charles Whitman was held at bay after the idiot was penned down by Texans who had high powered rifles on the rack in their pickups. The Austin police at the time were mostly carrying .38 caliber pistols which could not even reach him. Whitman had a brain tumor so please don’t even think about blaming the Marines. If you thinks Texas is so bad we are glad you don’t and won’t live here.
I learned to hunt when I was 11 and am familiar with all types of rifles, shotguns and pistols, both revolvers and automatics. I choose not to pursue hunting and prefer shooting golf. Having said that, I don’t care if you or anyone else want to keep a gun for sport, protection or whatever and it’s not a problem for me whether or not law enforcement has AK-47s or .38s. But I know enough about firearms to know that pistols do not “go off” accidentally, or at least I sure can’t understand how. I know that a loaded rifle or shotgun, with a round in the chamber, all locked, loaded and cocked, can discharge accidentlly….but a pistol? Nah, the guy was playing with it and is too red-faced to admit it. WC denied, charges filed, end of my take on the story….
AK-47, AR-15, M-60, These weapons are all fine. The AK-47 should not be shot in the fully automatic position within the office due to problems with accuracy in the full auto position. We find that the 12 guage in our best weapon for close quarter defense. Also, the 12 guage which is also most excellent for bird hunting may be outfitted with slugs for deer hunting or shooting out the engine block of a fleeing robber. Hey why not take out both the robber and the vehicle at the same time. In Texas we have a saying that if you were only able to own 5 guns the must haves are a Colt revolver, 9mm or larger automatic pistol, 22 rifle, shotgun, 30-06, .223, A-15. Oops I guess there really are 7 must have weapons in Texas.
Hey, I thought you were allowed to hunt 72 year old attorneys in Texas? Or was that Utah? the older the better, I’m told, they sometimes look like quail, don’t they? :-P
They look like quail, but taste like chicken.
That was a good one. Thanks for the laugh.
But I can go full-auto in the parking lot, right?
Of course full auto is ok in the parking lot for the AK-47. Tripod mounting for the M-60 is suggested.
The CRIME RATE sure has dropped since the law was implemented..the bad guys never know who is carrying and who is not. Better to be an ARMED citizen than a peasant.
Just happen to have TWO semi-automatics in my bottom desk drawer.
A ‘required’ gun safety course may have prevented this accident.
I’ve been an agent in the Oak Cliff/Duncanville section of Dallas, Texas for 28 years and have always kept several guns in my office – all within easy/quick access. I’ve also been an NRA certified instructor for about 15 years (went thru the course when my son was in Boy Scouts). The instructor’s course took months of study and weekly meetings. From first to last the main topic was safety – what to do and what not to do with a gun. Although I already knew much of this information from being in the Army, it was a good refresher.
It is often not what a person did with a gun that causes an accidental discharge but, rather what they failed to do. I feel that any company that doesn’t want guns on their premises should have a written policy stating so and require the employees to sign it. If the company will allow guns on their premises then, they should require those employees to complete a firearms training course and get certified. Gun certification courses focus on safety – not marksmanship. If an innocent bystander had been injured or killed I am sure all of these remarks would have a much different tone to them.
I’ve handled a gun once in my life; a big-a** shotgun for bird hunting. I FAILED to discharge the gun several times b/c I kept forgetting to switch the safety OFF before pulling the trigger. This is not an accident.
Dear Texan,
Excuse me, but many of us Northerners, contrary to your bigoted Texas opinions, are firearm owners and are very competent gun handlers and shooters!
Proud to be a Midwesterner
Texas Agent,
Good post.
The employee pulled the trigger.
No, I don’t believe that any state would allow for payment under Work Comp for this. Fortunately, none of his coworkers were injured due to this. If they had been thier injuries could be covered under the “but for” rule. But for the fact that they were in that place at that time due to thier employment, they would not have been shot.
I have given this more thought and I am going to contradict my first answer. This guy could be covered depending on the circumstances which is why WC is always gray! Why did he have the gun. Maybe the employer sponsored or condoned target practice (doubt it but it’s possible). I’d love to take the recorded statement of the claimant.
Rocco, you are correct! We have too many idiots here in Texas that think just because they grew up here that they know how to handle a gun. I have to wonder if the guy from Fort Worth (the city moto is “Where The West Begins”) that shot himself had the same attitude. When I was an active NRA instructor I got that attitude from too many people. Not just Texans but, that ‘where I grew up everybody knows how to handle a gun’. I know some fine people from the midwest and north that are good and safe gun handlers.
Mary, you’re right and depending upon the company’s policy on guns their WC policy may cover him. I know agents that don’t accept cash payments anymore as a robbery prevention measure. We normally see firearm questions on general liability apps for stores but, not all carriers ask about firearms on WC apps – they should!
Why was the gun in his pocket unless he planned on doing something with it (I guess he did do something with it!)? I once had the “pleasure” of firing an employee that carried a weapon in his bag he brought to the office. I was a bit nervous.
Hey Westemer, I was in a similar situation. We knew the guy carried a gun. We also knew he was emotionally unstable, which was one of the reasons we were letting him go…that was a very scarey day…He did throw a huge tantrum…fortunately he did not pull his gun although he did make a lot of threats.
In the much truthful words of Ron White, comedian….You can’t fix S-T-U-U-U-P-I-D!!
No but unfortunately there is no coverage exclusion for stupid!