Dope smoking agents?Dope Smoking Agent wrote:Agents who can't sell insurance but have no other skills go on to become consultants or teachers. Enter Scott the ex-Farmers Agent now consultant. What is this world coming to?
Agents - Your Clients Don’t Trust You
Moderators: Josh, independent guy
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independent guy
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Fees Vs Commissions
This topic has been interesting reading to say the least. Scott, you made some very good points and others made good points as well. My thought is that if both options are available, the client type, risk type and personality of the client should be taken into consideration when deciding which to use.
That being said, I have to say it is embarrassing to have some of these posts read by our company and agent peers. A lot of unprofessional language, unprofessional attitude, poor spelling and atrocious grammar. Even insinuated profanity?
Scott, I commend you for a professional, well written presentation of your opinion regarding a very "hot button" for a lot of agents. Your responses to some of the rude, obnoxious replies has still been gracious and well presented.
Good luck in your consulting career and be sure that your clients are well represented.[/i][/b]
That being said, I have to say it is embarrassing to have some of these posts read by our company and agent peers. A lot of unprofessional language, unprofessional attitude, poor spelling and atrocious grammar. Even insinuated profanity?
Scott, I commend you for a professional, well written presentation of your opinion regarding a very "hot button" for a lot of agents. Your responses to some of the rude, obnoxious replies has still been gracious and well presented.
Good luck in your consulting career and be sure that your clients are well represented.[/i][/b]
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Dope Smoking Agent
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independent guy
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I find the idea interesting. Having read Scott's posts, I believe I understand what he does, in that he acts as a risk manager does for a corporation (I mean, he's said that in this thread!). If I was not already sophisticated as to the workings of insurance, no doubt I'd want someone to look at it who is not making commissions off of it. Somewhere down the line, I intend to hire a FEE ONLY financial planner to review my stuff, to be sure that the guy working on the fee isn't taking me to pad his own wallet. After only 3 years in the insurance industry, and already countless agent's meetings, I've decided that I like Scott's idea. I've already heard too many agents talk about how much money a client is going to make them instead of doing what is in the client's best interest.Dope Smoking Agent wrote:Who wants to read about some insurance consultant trying to see if agents will work w/o commissions and just take a fee anyway?
Here is the problem....a real risk manager as you say Scott is, is only interested in helping client(your argument). The fact is Scott was unable to establish trust with his clients in the first place. Instead of doing some self-evaluation and asking the difficult questions of himself, he punted and blamed his insurance carriers and clients. The client would not trust him because he 'EARNED' a commission. Those were Scotts' words. Now he fixed nothing in himself, nothing to 'EARN' a clients trust-he just pretends to be interested in them by only charging a fee. Has he changed the way he earns trust? Absolutely not! Scott is still a poor example of a sales professional.
Fees and commissions are not the problem Scott and any who think he is now above reproach. Scott is the problem and so are all the weak sales people who have entered this arena. Selling based on dollars, whether fixed or variable, is not what true sales professionals are about. I recommend a book, read it-study it-and learn it. High Trust Selling by Todd Duncan.
Fees and commissions are not the problem Scott and any who think he is now above reproach. Scott is the problem and so are all the weak sales people who have entered this arena. Selling based on dollars, whether fixed or variable, is not what true sales professionals are about. I recommend a book, read it-study it-and learn it. High Trust Selling by Todd Duncan.
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scott
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MUD is correct, As a risk manager my only interest is helping my client.
My focus is making sure the insurance and risk management program my client purchases is the best the marketplace has to offer. That may mean One Beacon on the property and Liberty Mutual on the casualty lines. It may mean moving an account from Hanover to Nationwide for broader coverage at a better price. It may mean moving the account from one St Paul / Travelers agent to another who offers greater loss control services.
Agents are constrained by the fleet of companies represented. I have no such constraints.
Good book recommendation MUD. I read it in 2002 when it first came out. I pulled it off the shelf and will reread it.
Here is one for you - Purple Cow by Seth Godin. Not a book on selling; but on marketing.
My focus is making sure the insurance and risk management program my client purchases is the best the marketplace has to offer. That may mean One Beacon on the property and Liberty Mutual on the casualty lines. It may mean moving an account from Hanover to Nationwide for broader coverage at a better price. It may mean moving the account from one St Paul / Travelers agent to another who offers greater loss control services.
Agents are constrained by the fleet of companies represented. I have no such constraints.
Good book recommendation MUD. I read it in 2002 when it first came out. I pulled it off the shelf and will reread it.
Here is one for you - Purple Cow by Seth Godin. Not a book on selling; but on marketing.
Scott Simmonds, CPCU, ARM
Insurance Consultant
Insurance Consultant
Scott;
You earlier words do not even suggest or hint at being a risk manager. Your entire remark was based on money. If everyone was just like you things would be better by charging a fee. That is why I am saying you have blamed the wrong people. You blame insurance companies and clients for not developing trust. As an independent agent there is nothing in your definition of risk manager that we do not do. Yes we EARN commissions for providing a valuable service. There is absolutely nothing wrong with earning a higher commission when the premium increases for one of our partners(clients), as long as we did all within our power to reduce risk and insure where risk needed to be transferred. While the market was soft our income on existing clients declined, we did not complain and blame our clients or carriers, we went after new accounts to offset. To be good at what we do is our goal, that we earn a very good living is our just reward. Many people read a good book, but when they are finished it is put on a shelf. Application and constant improvement in how I live, work, and serve brings about positive change. Never resting on what was accomplished last year, and striving to be better day by day is my goal.
Yes charge fees, for there is nothing inherently wrong with so doing, but do not place blame on those of us who earn commissions in the same market place!
Best of success to you and your clients.
PS
We have access to a VERY large base of companies, but we do not pretend or suggest we can or will go to every carrier, AND NIETHER CAN YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
Also you have never addressed the issue of raising your fees from one year to the next, remember just cause it is 2007 instead of 2006 why should YOU get a raise at the expense of your clients? I also have a funny feeling that in a couple more years you will be moving onto something different, because in your last position you blamed the system for your failures( I know it was the systems fault, it could not have been your fault). Since you refuse to address the root cause, YOU, the same problem will follow you wherever you go!!
You earlier words do not even suggest or hint at being a risk manager. Your entire remark was based on money. If everyone was just like you things would be better by charging a fee. That is why I am saying you have blamed the wrong people. You blame insurance companies and clients for not developing trust. As an independent agent there is nothing in your definition of risk manager that we do not do. Yes we EARN commissions for providing a valuable service. There is absolutely nothing wrong with earning a higher commission when the premium increases for one of our partners(clients), as long as we did all within our power to reduce risk and insure where risk needed to be transferred. While the market was soft our income on existing clients declined, we did not complain and blame our clients or carriers, we went after new accounts to offset. To be good at what we do is our goal, that we earn a very good living is our just reward. Many people read a good book, but when they are finished it is put on a shelf. Application and constant improvement in how I live, work, and serve brings about positive change. Never resting on what was accomplished last year, and striving to be better day by day is my goal.
Yes charge fees, for there is nothing inherently wrong with so doing, but do not place blame on those of us who earn commissions in the same market place!
Best of success to you and your clients.
PS
We have access to a VERY large base of companies, but we do not pretend or suggest we can or will go to every carrier, AND NIETHER CAN YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
Also you have never addressed the issue of raising your fees from one year to the next, remember just cause it is 2007 instead of 2006 why should YOU get a raise at the expense of your clients? I also have a funny feeling that in a couple more years you will be moving onto something different, because in your last position you blamed the system for your failures( I know it was the systems fault, it could not have been your fault). Since you refuse to address the root cause, YOU, the same problem will follow you wherever you go!!
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scott
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MUD,
I'm not sure how I was perceived as blaming anyone for any failures. I have tried to offer a different approach that may be valuable to a segment of the insurance buying public. I wanted to spur a conversation about a different model of compensation.
I spent 20 years working in several agencies in several states (MA, PA and ME). While I had failures (we all do), my agency career was, by any measure, successful. When I left, I was in line to be president of a growing agency here in Maine. I sold a lot of insurance, had great clients, and made an exceptional income.
I wanted to make a lifestyle change, start my own firm, and offer insurance services in a different model. I felt that there was a place in the market for an insurance expert that didn't sell insurance. I was right.
I started the consulting practice in early 2000. Here's what I have six years later: I make a great income (twice what I made as an agent). I set my own hours. My clients seek me out and appreciate my work. I don't worry about markets, underwriters, premium increases, or commission cutbacks. I work from a home my wife and I had built two years ago in a beautiful, comfortable office. I get to meet my son at the door when he comes home from school each day. My clients see me as an adviser - not a salesman. I provide my clients with valuable insight and information. I am truly the master of my destiny and the keeper of my fate.
Regarding fees... First, I'm an independent consultant. Consultants who work within an agency would have to use a slightly different model for fees.
Some clients hire me for a short term project:
-Coverage/Exposure Review
-Bid process
-Claim problem
-Agent remediation
-Audit problems
-Loss control or claims management systems
-WC experience mod issues
Some clients hire me to manage their entire insurance program on an annual basis - renewals, bids, claims, problems, changes to exposures - the works.
My fees are always on a project basis - not hourly or contingent. My clients know the fee before we start working and usually pay at the commencement of the project.
Before a client hires me we discuss their objectives in bringing me in, the measures of success for the work, and the value the client expects to receive from my work. I determine my fee based on the value my client perceives.
MUD is correct, consultants don't get a raise because its now 2006. My fees are based on value. Therefore, to increase my fees I must provide more value.
Regarding 20 years... I can't say for sure, but I can't imagine a better way to make a great living. Twenty years from now I would guess I'll be right here doing what I am now - providing value to clients by improving their situation.
I'm not sure how I was perceived as blaming anyone for any failures. I have tried to offer a different approach that may be valuable to a segment of the insurance buying public. I wanted to spur a conversation about a different model of compensation.
I spent 20 years working in several agencies in several states (MA, PA and ME). While I had failures (we all do), my agency career was, by any measure, successful. When I left, I was in line to be president of a growing agency here in Maine. I sold a lot of insurance, had great clients, and made an exceptional income.
I wanted to make a lifestyle change, start my own firm, and offer insurance services in a different model. I felt that there was a place in the market for an insurance expert that didn't sell insurance. I was right.
I started the consulting practice in early 2000. Here's what I have six years later: I make a great income (twice what I made as an agent). I set my own hours. My clients seek me out and appreciate my work. I don't worry about markets, underwriters, premium increases, or commission cutbacks. I work from a home my wife and I had built two years ago in a beautiful, comfortable office. I get to meet my son at the door when he comes home from school each day. My clients see me as an adviser - not a salesman. I provide my clients with valuable insight and information. I am truly the master of my destiny and the keeper of my fate.
Regarding fees... First, I'm an independent consultant. Consultants who work within an agency would have to use a slightly different model for fees.
Some clients hire me for a short term project:
-Coverage/Exposure Review
-Bid process
-Claim problem
-Agent remediation
-Audit problems
-Loss control or claims management systems
-WC experience mod issues
Some clients hire me to manage their entire insurance program on an annual basis - renewals, bids, claims, problems, changes to exposures - the works.
My fees are always on a project basis - not hourly or contingent. My clients know the fee before we start working and usually pay at the commencement of the project.
Before a client hires me we discuss their objectives in bringing me in, the measures of success for the work, and the value the client expects to receive from my work. I determine my fee based on the value my client perceives.
MUD is correct, consultants don't get a raise because its now 2006. My fees are based on value. Therefore, to increase my fees I must provide more value.
Regarding 20 years... I can't say for sure, but I can't imagine a better way to make a great living. Twenty years from now I would guess I'll be right here doing what I am now - providing value to clients by improving their situation.
Scott Simmonds, CPCU, ARM
Insurance Consultant
Insurance Consultant
Scott,
Just read your first post on this topic. "Clients think since we are paid by commission - our decisions our not trustworthy" and "commissioned sales people cannot earn trust" in summary of what you said. Look at what I might think clients of fee based consultants say. "He charges me a flat fee and I am suppose to trust him that he will work harder for me than my last agent." Your argument goes in circles. What you are saying in your last post seems contrary to your first posts, which makes me wonder what is the truth. If we(those reading this discussion) can not trust your words, then how can your clients trust you? This leads me back to the reason for your change and did you blame the system instead of you? I know, I know...I earn commissions so I can not be trusted, you hypocrit!
Just read your first post on this topic. "Clients think since we are paid by commission - our decisions our not trustworthy" and "commissioned sales people cannot earn trust" in summary of what you said. Look at what I might think clients of fee based consultants say. "He charges me a flat fee and I am suppose to trust him that he will work harder for me than my last agent." Your argument goes in circles. What you are saying in your last post seems contrary to your first posts, which makes me wonder what is the truth. If we(those reading this discussion) can not trust your words, then how can your clients trust you? This leads me back to the reason for your change and did you blame the system instead of you? I know, I know...I earn commissions so I can not be trusted, you hypocrit!
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scott
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Anyone else notice that my detractors always fall back on name calling?
I am the only one here who has been open with my name, websites and contact info. I have hidden nothing. Anyone who has any question of the veracity of my statements can check me out - as several have.
Go to Google and search "scott simmonds insurance" if you want further info besides what's on my web sites.
I am the only one here who has been open with my name, websites and contact info. I have hidden nothing. Anyone who has any question of the veracity of my statements can check me out - as several have.
Go to Google and search "scott simmonds insurance" if you want further info besides what's on my web sites.
Scott Simmonds, CPCU, ARM
Insurance Consultant
Insurance Consultant
Name calling.
It is ok to call you Scott, but not what you are by nature which is a hypocrit. You have called ALL COMMISSION SALES PEOPLE UNTRUSTWORTHY,( it could not have been you who was untrustworthy, it was everyone else who earns commissions) and hold yourself out to be above everyone else. A hypocrit you are. Enough with your self-promotion, your demonizing anyone who earns commissions. Scott you are SELF-ABSORBED that is why you blame all others and place yourself high on this platform. Yes, Scott says I(Scott) am wonderful, but you(all of us) are untrustworthy...change and be me and you too will be able to sit high with me on this throne. Scott, read what you have written and tell me where I am wrong. That is probably why you put Todd Duncans' book on a shelf, because he ask a person to evaluate themselves not everyone else.
You are wrong to say that you have hidden nothing, you have hidden the truth behind your self-promotion. Even when combated with your own words that all can see, you deny the truth that you called ALL commissioned sales people untrustworthy. When we can all see that you now hide YOUR inabilty to earn trust behind...what...fees? So all commission sales people, that cannot be trusted, charge fees instead and you to will be holy like Scott. THE TRUTH!!!!
It is ok to call you Scott, but not what you are by nature which is a hypocrit. You have called ALL COMMISSION SALES PEOPLE UNTRUSTWORTHY,( it could not have been you who was untrustworthy, it was everyone else who earns commissions) and hold yourself out to be above everyone else. A hypocrit you are. Enough with your self-promotion, your demonizing anyone who earns commissions. Scott you are SELF-ABSORBED that is why you blame all others and place yourself high on this platform. Yes, Scott says I(Scott) am wonderful, but you(all of us) are untrustworthy...change and be me and you too will be able to sit high with me on this throne. Scott, read what you have written and tell me where I am wrong. That is probably why you put Todd Duncans' book on a shelf, because he ask a person to evaluate themselves not everyone else.
You are wrong to say that you have hidden nothing, you have hidden the truth behind your self-promotion. Even when combated with your own words that all can see, you deny the truth that you called ALL commissioned sales people untrustworthy. When we can all see that you now hide YOUR inabilty to earn trust behind...what...fees? So all commission sales people, that cannot be trusted, charge fees instead and you to will be holy like Scott. THE TRUTH!!!!
Scott,
I must say that you really ask for negative feedback when your post subject is "Post subject: Agents - Your Clients Don't Trust You".
I don't think anyone should call you names or be unprofessional but I can see how a reader can become insulted by your subject title and post content.
I don't have anything to hide but I don't have anything to promote except my humble website, http://www.yourhealthplanonline.com. You are promoting your business which is why you are being so open about your personal information.
My name is Eileen Pabon and I am trustworthy, knowledgeable and protect my client's money, including $$ spent on commissions, as if it were my own.
Enjoy!
I must say that you really ask for negative feedback when your post subject is "Post subject: Agents - Your Clients Don't Trust You".
I don't think anyone should call you names or be unprofessional but I can see how a reader can become insulted by your subject title and post content.
I don't have anything to hide but I don't have anything to promote except my humble website, http://www.yourhealthplanonline.com. You are promoting your business which is why you are being so open about your personal information.
My name is Eileen Pabon and I am trustworthy, knowledgeable and protect my client's money, including $$ spent on commissions, as if it were my own.
Enjoy!
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Dope Smoking Agent
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Jacqueline
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As a small independent agent in PA, I resent the insinuation that as a commissions-only paid insurance sales person that I am only out to make a buck and not interested in providing valuable services to customers. If I fail to find the best bang for the buck regarding coverage and the cost for that coverage, guess what happens? I lose a customer!! If I refuse to do my utmost in the claims handling aspect in the event of a loss, guess what happens? I lose a customer AND that angry customer tells everybody and their uncle not to buy anything from me - which kills my ability to make a living. In a city of only 100,000, bad publicity via word of mouth can be the death knell for anyone in the insurance business, especially since more and more people are shopping online for insurance because they mistakenly think that going online to buy direct cuts their out-of-pocket costs because there is no agent commission (or fee) involved.
Obviously, as a commissions-only paid worker, it is in my selfish best interest to go out of my way for my customers because that is the ONLY way I am able to earn a paycheck. Carriers do not pay independent agents by the hour on dead days when we sit in an office not getting any sales, while having the expense of utilities, office rent, E & O and whatnot. That is time I put in that I am NOT paid for. How many hours can Scott afford to work - ar at least show up at his office - for NO pay?
Now if I could afford to waste my time and spin my wheels for nothing or work for free, I would be a 501(3)c corporation deriving a fat salary off of donations from the public and grants from the plethora of government agencies that fund non-profits. I am NOT going to be made to feel bad for being paid for working to support my family by providing a service, because MY time, MY knowledge, MY education, MY licenses and all my office equipment plus utilities (electric, phone, Internet) is all worth money - these things are NOT free and they are required for working selling insurance.
On the fee vs. commissions issue, I dealt w/ a flat-fee realtor when I sold my old home. It was in the poorer section of town in Erie, PA where the market value for a 4 BR home w/ garage, yard and off-street parking commands a fair market value of anywhere from $20,000 - $35,000. The ONLY realtors that touch properties in the poor side of town or inner-city here in Erie, PA are flat-fee realtors. And they typically are just out to get a real cheap good deal for one of their rich investor buddies - at the poor seller's expense. This realtor (Patrick Groner from Pennington Lines Realty) flat fee was $3000 that he would get - regardless of whether he did his best for me to get me the best price for my old home. Before things began to take off for my small one-person agency, things got to be pretty dire as this realtor failed to show anyone my home until three days before his listing contract w/ me was due to expire.
In the meantime, my family incurred financial hardship because we didn't have enough income from my scratch agency yet plus I had to pay $3900 for E & O just so I could work. I had property taxes on a house I was no longer living in that I had to pay. Knowing this, the realtor presents me w/ an insulting offer from a local rich investor of only $18,000 for my home - knowing by that time that we were too financially desperate (after he sat on our listing for 6 months without bringing us any fair offers). So by that time we were too financially bad off to tell him where to stick that insulting low offer. His flat fee plus the closing costs left me with hardly anything - not even enough to contribute to my SEP IRA. His flat fee for failing to look out for my interests is tantamount to paying a realtor $3000 for selling a $180,000 home. The typical realtor commission structure is between 7% and 10% of the sale price. The $3000 he got for selling us out at the last minute translated to far more than even a 10% commission! Had this realtor been a commissions-only paid realtor, he would have done a better job in looking out for me and my family by bringing me more offers a hell of alot sooner and not insulting, low-ball offers either. His commission-only paycheck would have depended on it. I will NEVER do business w/ another fee-based sales professional in ANY industry because they clearly get paid whether they look out for my interests or not. I know my insurance customers feel the same way - and I am a non-standard insurance agency. Less than 5% of my book is preferred.
Obviously, as a commissions-only paid worker, it is in my selfish best interest to go out of my way for my customers because that is the ONLY way I am able to earn a paycheck. Carriers do not pay independent agents by the hour on dead days when we sit in an office not getting any sales, while having the expense of utilities, office rent, E & O and whatnot. That is time I put in that I am NOT paid for. How many hours can Scott afford to work - ar at least show up at his office - for NO pay?
Now if I could afford to waste my time and spin my wheels for nothing or work for free, I would be a 501(3)c corporation deriving a fat salary off of donations from the public and grants from the plethora of government agencies that fund non-profits. I am NOT going to be made to feel bad for being paid for working to support my family by providing a service, because MY time, MY knowledge, MY education, MY licenses and all my office equipment plus utilities (electric, phone, Internet) is all worth money - these things are NOT free and they are required for working selling insurance.
On the fee vs. commissions issue, I dealt w/ a flat-fee realtor when I sold my old home. It was in the poorer section of town in Erie, PA where the market value for a 4 BR home w/ garage, yard and off-street parking commands a fair market value of anywhere from $20,000 - $35,000. The ONLY realtors that touch properties in the poor side of town or inner-city here in Erie, PA are flat-fee realtors. And they typically are just out to get a real cheap good deal for one of their rich investor buddies - at the poor seller's expense. This realtor (Patrick Groner from Pennington Lines Realty) flat fee was $3000 that he would get - regardless of whether he did his best for me to get me the best price for my old home. Before things began to take off for my small one-person agency, things got to be pretty dire as this realtor failed to show anyone my home until three days before his listing contract w/ me was due to expire.
In the meantime, my family incurred financial hardship because we didn't have enough income from my scratch agency yet plus I had to pay $3900 for E & O just so I could work. I had property taxes on a house I was no longer living in that I had to pay. Knowing this, the realtor presents me w/ an insulting offer from a local rich investor of only $18,000 for my home - knowing by that time that we were too financially desperate (after he sat on our listing for 6 months without bringing us any fair offers). So by that time we were too financially bad off to tell him where to stick that insulting low offer. His flat fee plus the closing costs left me with hardly anything - not even enough to contribute to my SEP IRA. His flat fee for failing to look out for my interests is tantamount to paying a realtor $3000 for selling a $180,000 home. The typical realtor commission structure is between 7% and 10% of the sale price. The $3000 he got for selling us out at the last minute translated to far more than even a 10% commission! Had this realtor been a commissions-only paid realtor, he would have done a better job in looking out for me and my family by bringing me more offers a hell of alot sooner and not insulting, low-ball offers either. His commission-only paycheck would have depended on it. I will NEVER do business w/ another fee-based sales professional in ANY industry because they clearly get paid whether they look out for my interests or not. I know my insurance customers feel the same way - and I am a non-standard insurance agency. Less than 5% of my book is preferred.
"Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"