Recently I submitted an application for a BOP on a home based hair styling business. About 12 years ago she built the salon using an existing room in the rear of the house. The owner currently has the BOP with me, it's been 5 years and thought I'd give a go at one of the on-line quoting systems I just bought into.
While taking the application over the phone, on the plumbing and electrical update she answered no. I didn't quiz her about it but should have and should have just answered yes and given dates. The application was declined for no plumbing updates in the past 25 years. I called the applicant and quizzed them on the plumbing. The owner said 12 years ago they did have a new water installed and some electrical work done when the salon was built. They have lived in the house 14 years and could not attest to any updates before that. Also when the salon was built the local township had to inspect the work and safety of the dwelling before issuing a permit to allow the salon to open. So I sent this information in and was again declined because, "a water heater is not an update". Also they wanted to know if the local government plumbing and electrical inspectors are certified. Hm? I'm thinking to give a snide answer such as ..no they were car sales people before the government gave them the job of "inspector" and they know nothing about construction.
I would like to know (because a water heater update has never before been considered a non-update) what do you consider an update. I called the applicant and 12 years ago when they built the salon they had a salon style sink installed, they had to have plumbing run to the sinks. Maintenance items such as... about 4 years ago they had a small drip under the kitchen sink fixed by a plumber, new faucets in the second floor bathroom. If a water heater isn't an update, plus the new salon plumbing and the maintenance items, I am not sure what else would be an update?
I called a local plumbing contractor, a man I've known for 45 years, has been in the plumbing business for almost thirty years and owns one of the larger plumbing contractor businesses in my town. He has been published in plumbing magazines and produces consumer oriented information.
The guy knows his stuff and I asked him, what would you do to update an existing non - leaking plumbing system on a home. He said ...other than a new water heater he does not know of anything that he would consider a greater update that would lesson the risk of water damage. If a water heater isn't an update, what is an update and what or how many items must be renewed to be considered an update? Must all the copper be torn out and replaced with new copper?
As far as addressing if a government employed housing inspector is competent to inspect the work of a certified contractor or certify the safety of a house, I won't even go there.
I dropped the ball because I didn't quiz the owner on the plumbing. If I would have, I could have just put yes and the date of the new water heater. As a CSR at a local agency put it, know their hot points and phrase it the way they want to her it.
The owner said the agent that has the homeowners insurance on the house didn't give her such a hard time about the plumbing and electrical. Hm....what can I say? To be honest I've always brokered through local agencies and this is the first time using an on-line service. To be truthful...I've never had such a hard time either and I've insured much bigger, older and much more complicated operations than a one person salon in a home. Plus the owner does have HO on the dwelling. If a copper line goes under the kitchen sink....will the claim go against the HO or BOP? I would say the hazard was in the residence and should be paid by the HO. I guess you could take it to the nth degree and say yes but it could flood the entire home and damage things covered by the BOP. Ok what ever?
:huh:
Should Have Answered Yes
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Dawgnacious
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<!--QuoteBegin-Dawgnacious+Feb 9 2005, 02:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dawgnacious @ Feb 9 2005, 02:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jeez! IMHO, would have been much easier to find a more reasonable carrier. [/quote]
It didn't make it to the carrier and was stopped by the on line broker/quoting service. Somehow I think it may be their way of saying they don't have a market for the risk in my State. After paying my fee and getting in to the system to see what they can quote, I noticed they didn't have a market in my State for a lot of risks. I remember voicing my concern about it and perhaps they don't want to say...sorry no market in your State.
<_<
It didn't make it to the carrier and was stopped by the on line broker/quoting service. Somehow I think it may be their way of saying they don't have a market for the risk in my State. After paying my fee and getting in to the system to see what they can quote, I noticed they didn't have a market in my State for a lot of risks. I remember voicing my concern about it and perhaps they don't want to say...sorry no market in your State.
<_<
<span style='color:red'>should have just answered yes </span>I hope you don't mean that you would have given false or misleading or made-up information on an insurance application.
I can only assume that this carrier is wanting to know if the pipes have been replaced in this building. Replacing a water heater is usually done when there is a problem with the old one. As far as the plumber that said he would not do anything with non leaking pipes on a house this old, well the problem is that the company know by experience that the pipes will probably leak in the not so distant future. If the pipes are poly-butylene nobody will insure it (hopefully). Some times carriers will honor an inspection from a licensed plumber that he has inspected the building and has found no leaks, notes any recommendations and gives a life expectancy of the existing system. Since you are using an online carrier, you will learn quickly they are either not easy to deal with, or they are so liberal on things that they in turn don't pay claims or turn it into an E&O issue for you. they will indicate that while they did not ask a question, you should have know better since you are the agent placing the business. It never ceases to amaze me at the information that is not asked about on commercial business applications. If you have been licensed for any period of time, beware because they will not take responsibilty for things they think you should have know. On a home based salon, you need to consider more than the obvious slip and fall stuff. There is polution issues that could arise from hair care products and dyes. We have had local issues where the city municipality has required special filters on the drainage systems to prevent the chemicals from entering the city waste and water system. If not done or replaced every 90 days the city fines the business $5,000 per incident. if they find the filter not in place they are required to pay even more. NOT COVERED.
<!--QuoteBegin-LCIS+Feb 10 2005, 01:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LCIS @ Feb 10 2005, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='color:red'>should have just answered yes </span>
I hope you don't mean that you would have given false or misleading or made-up information on an insurance application.
I can only assume that this carrier is wanting to know if the pipes have been replaced in this building. Replacing a water heater is usually done when there is a problem with the old one. As far as the plumber that said he would not do anything with non leaking pipes on a house this old, well the problem is that the company know by experience that the pipes will probably leak in the not so distant future. If the pipes are poly-butylene nobody will insure it (hopefully). Some times carriers will honor an inspection from a licensed plumber that he has inspected the building and has found no leaks, notes any recommendations and gives a life expectancy of the existing system. Since you are using an online carrier, you will learn quickly they are either not easy to deal with, or they are so liberal on things that they in turn don't pay claims or turn it into an E&O issue for you. they will indicate that while they did not ask a question, you should have know better since you are the agent placing the business. It never ceases to amaze me at the information that is not asked about on commercial business applications. If you have been licensed for any period of time, beware because they will not take responsibilty for things they think you should have know. On a home based salon, you need to consider more than the obvious slip and fall stuff. There is polution issues that could arise from hair care products and dyes. We have had local issues where the city municipality has required special filters on the drainage systems to prevent the chemicals from entering the city waste and water system. If not done or replaced every 90 days the city fines the business $5,000 per incident. if they find the filter not in place they are required to pay even more. NOT COVERED. [/quote]
No I would not have answered yes "if" there were no updates. But it says update and each carrier has their own idea of updates. To the carriers I've been using since 1983 a new water heater sufficed for an update. Never had a decline for a new water heater. Water heaters have a very limited MTFR compaired to copper pipes in the home.
Since this little episode I've called 11 CSR's that I know and each one would consider a water heater as an update to the plumbing. Hm...am I missing something here? One has been in the business for 25 years and the remainder for a minimum of 10 years.
It is copper pipe. Now, if you know anything about copper pipe you will know that today's copper pipe is not the quality (thickness) of yesterday's copper pipe. For 40 years of his life, my father was a plumber and as a kid I sweated quite a few joints with him. Today's 1/2 inch copper pipe can easily be bent with one hand. I was told the carrier would not have a problem with the PVC that they use in today's new homes. Have you seen the PVC they run in the new houses? Many times the PVC is pushed and squished into areas and open to all sorts of stress (which means eventual stress to the glue). I am going to give the answer to what is a "plumbing update" on a new post.
As my pluming contractor friend (the one that is published and known as an expert) said, do you know that there is still old lead pipes that are working and from the ancient Roman days? Did you know that in ancient Rome the women were plumbers running the pipes?
And no that is not true that a 25 year old soldered pipe will be leaking soon. Sorry to disagree.
<span style='color:red'>should have just answered yes </span>I hope you don't mean that you would have given false or misleading or made-up information on an insurance application.
I can only assume that this carrier is wanting to know if the pipes have been replaced in this building. Replacing a water heater is usually done when there is a problem with the old one. As far as the plumber that said he would not do anything with non leaking pipes on a house this old, well the problem is that the company know by experience that the pipes will probably leak in the not so distant future. If the pipes are poly-butylene nobody will insure it (hopefully). Some times carriers will honor an inspection from a licensed plumber that he has inspected the building and has found no leaks, notes any recommendations and gives a life expectancy of the existing system. Since you are using an online carrier, you will learn quickly they are either not easy to deal with, or they are so liberal on things that they in turn don't pay claims or turn it into an E&O issue for you. they will indicate that while they did not ask a question, you should have know better since you are the agent placing the business. It never ceases to amaze me at the information that is not asked about on commercial business applications. If you have been licensed for any period of time, beware because they will not take responsibilty for things they think you should have know. On a home based salon, you need to consider more than the obvious slip and fall stuff. There is polution issues that could arise from hair care products and dyes. We have had local issues where the city municipality has required special filters on the drainage systems to prevent the chemicals from entering the city waste and water system. If not done or replaced every 90 days the city fines the business $5,000 per incident. if they find the filter not in place they are required to pay even more. NOT COVERED. [/quote]
No I would not have answered yes "if" there were no updates. But it says update and each carrier has their own idea of updates. To the carriers I've been using since 1983 a new water heater sufficed for an update. Never had a decline for a new water heater. Water heaters have a very limited MTFR compaired to copper pipes in the home.
Since this little episode I've called 11 CSR's that I know and each one would consider a water heater as an update to the plumbing. Hm...am I missing something here? One has been in the business for 25 years and the remainder for a minimum of 10 years.
It is copper pipe. Now, if you know anything about copper pipe you will know that today's copper pipe is not the quality (thickness) of yesterday's copper pipe. For 40 years of his life, my father was a plumber and as a kid I sweated quite a few joints with him. Today's 1/2 inch copper pipe can easily be bent with one hand. I was told the carrier would not have a problem with the PVC that they use in today's new homes. Have you seen the PVC they run in the new houses? Many times the PVC is pushed and squished into areas and open to all sorts of stress (which means eventual stress to the glue). I am going to give the answer to what is a "plumbing update" on a new post.
As my pluming contractor friend (the one that is published and known as an expert) said, do you know that there is still old lead pipes that are working and from the ancient Roman days? Did you know that in ancient Rome the women were plumbers running the pipes?
And no that is not true that a 25 year old soldered pipe will be leaking soon. Sorry to disagree.
CSR's can be a great resource, but you need to remember that when push comes to shove, it's the company underwriter that makes the decision whether a policy gets written or not. I worked for a personal lines company that reunderwrote the homeowners book and all of a sudden we were looking for updates, and signficant updates, on old houses. Some of it was extreme; let's face it, if you've lived in a house for 30 years with no leaks, are you really going to rip out all the plumbing just because it's old? No. But there was a magic year that set off the buzzers, and we had to be sure there were updates.
<!--QuoteBegin-ins geek+Feb 11 2005, 07:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ins geek @ Feb 11 2005, 07:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> CSR's can be a great resource, but you need to remember that when push comes to shove, it's the company underwriter that makes the decision whether a policy gets written or not. I worked for a personal lines company that reunderwrote the homeowners book and all of a sudden we were looking for updates, and signficant updates, on old houses. Some of it was extreme; let's face it, if you've lived in a house for 30 years with no leaks, are you really going to rip out all the plumbing just because it's old? No. But there was a magic year that set off the buzzers, and we had to be sure there were updates. [/quote]
Thank God we don't live in Europe. The companies have a problem with a 30 year old house, try one that is 400 years old. Compared to Europe the USA housing market is a baby. I wish I had some friends from Europe to ask about this question.
In my area of the world many older houses have 10 gauge interior wiring. Guess what the new houses use? IF you can find a new house with copper what you will find is that the walls of the copper is much thinner than copper that was used 30 or more years ago.
Sometimes I think the insurance companies are their worst enemies. Knee jerk stuff like the hard market / soft market cycles. It's like a freak show with the insurance company each year bringing out the years latest want and wish from the companies. Often we are left scratching our heads.
Talk to the people that were in the business way back when and they'll mention the bean counters messing up business. I knew an agency owner that was in the business for 45 years. He is dead now but when he was in his final days he said, if he had it to do again he would never enter the insurance business. He was one of those that would talk about the bean counters. He said that he watched the continuing march of the insurance companies not
wanting to assume risks but they sure were happy to collect premiums. He had many accounts with $200,000 and greater annual premiums and di quite well. in the business.
I hope I don't become as jaded as the man above but even in my 23 years I've watched the industry become less friendly. Look how insane it has gotten to get insurance company appointments due to the rather large commitments. To keep those contracts becomes even more desperate. I pity anyone starting from scratch. Is there any wonder why the industry insurance magazines talk of the demise of new entrants? It is a bear of a business and sometimes I think we are all must me masocists for staying in it.
If it weren't that everyone I've talked with from captive Nationwide agency owners, to CSR's to independent agency owners etc., considered a plumbing update to mean new pipes I would never have started this rant. All of those previously mentioned agree with me but I'm still searching for someone that considers the improvment question to mean all new pipes.
Thank God we don't live in Europe. The companies have a problem with a 30 year old house, try one that is 400 years old. Compared to Europe the USA housing market is a baby. I wish I had some friends from Europe to ask about this question.
In my area of the world many older houses have 10 gauge interior wiring. Guess what the new houses use? IF you can find a new house with copper what you will find is that the walls of the copper is much thinner than copper that was used 30 or more years ago.
Sometimes I think the insurance companies are their worst enemies. Knee jerk stuff like the hard market / soft market cycles. It's like a freak show with the insurance company each year bringing out the years latest want and wish from the companies. Often we are left scratching our heads.
Talk to the people that were in the business way back when and they'll mention the bean counters messing up business. I knew an agency owner that was in the business for 45 years. He is dead now but when he was in his final days he said, if he had it to do again he would never enter the insurance business. He was one of those that would talk about the bean counters. He said that he watched the continuing march of the insurance companies not
wanting to assume risks but they sure were happy to collect premiums. He had many accounts with $200,000 and greater annual premiums and di quite well. in the business.
I hope I don't become as jaded as the man above but even in my 23 years I've watched the industry become less friendly. Look how insane it has gotten to get insurance company appointments due to the rather large commitments. To keep those contracts becomes even more desperate. I pity anyone starting from scratch. Is there any wonder why the industry insurance magazines talk of the demise of new entrants? It is a bear of a business and sometimes I think we are all must me masocists for staying in it.
If it weren't that everyone I've talked with from captive Nationwide agency owners, to CSR's to independent agency owners etc., considered a plumbing update to mean new pipes I would never have started this rant. All of those previously mentioned agree with me but I'm still searching for someone that considers the improvment question to mean all new pipes.