I’m all for a woman’s right to any contraception she desires. I also understand the church’s position. If the cost is shifted to the insurance company and the insurance company raises rates to cover that cost then the church is in fact paying for contraception. What’s real doesn’t change when you change the label. A duck is a duck.
Even if they don’t raise the rates to cover the cost of contraception, if the church or hospital is paying the premiums for their employees, they are in fact paying for the contraceptions. That is why even the Evangelicals are now getting upset with Obamacare. How many other “surprises” are we going to find out down the road in obamacare? Remember Polosi said “We have to pass it so we can find out what’s in it.” Well surprise, surprise, surprise.
Obama shifting the cost to the insurance companies is another sham. Companies are not going to do this for free. They will charge in the rate. Every Catholic and person of faith should take it out on the Democrats and run them out of office while we still have Freedom of Religion and Conscience in this country. The Secular Progressives that want to destroy religion are free to move to another country, preferably Venezuela.
Remember back in the 70’s when the Church argued (seriously) that they should be allowed to pay women less than men because the bible says so… Well, this is no different really. The Church, the small business, the large corporation, the little league club, everybody needs to follow the law whether they agree with it or not.
Kurt said: “Remember back in the 70′s when the Church argued (seriously) that they should be allowed to pay women less than men because the bible says so… ”
Do you just make this stuff up? Can you participate in a debate with facts and not fallacies?
I understand that the Church does not believe in contraception. I also understand the government’s concern not to dicriminate against women who are non-Catholic and are entitled to contraceptin benefits.
I also believe that the Church can’t hide their political contempt for the current administration and are in step with the current administration’s opposistion no matter how hard they wish to feign nuetrality in these situations.
The religious freedom shtick is also a convenient opportunity for Cardinal O’Malley to run interference and diversion on the molestation issues of the Church, which he is deeply involved with and has cost the Church tens of millions to settle.
I am aware of no scriptural passage that women should be paid less. Please provide either a cite to the chapter/vers or some evidence that the Church (versus some rogue priest/Bishop) established this as their legal position.
Further, this is not about whether the law conforms to your belief of what is fair; it’s about protecting religion from the law because the law violates the U.S. Constitution’s freedom of conscience and freedom of speech.
The Church’s position against sterliziation, abortion and contraception are deeply rooted in scripture and the inherent dignity of the person. To state the obvious, the Church is entitled to protections that are not afforded to secular employers.
Oh, good, a new thread of church v. State arguments! I love those! And I cannot wait until the Republicans start chirping in on how Obamacare and this issue in particular are the downfall of Amerrrikuh.
The scariest part of this whole situation is that pundits and candidates alike want to support a Gringrich or Scantorum because they will return Ammerrrikuh to it’s basic Christian values on which it was founded. Yet where does the line get drawn on contraception to families with too many kids for their wallets; artificial pregnancy for those who desparately want a child; or the older dude who needs little blue pills?
Everything gets rolled back to the Middle Ages, or at least the middle 60’s, which were a mess the first time around. How do values for one get impressed upon another? How does the HR department say “sorry” to one while saying “welcome” to the other?
We are a polyglot population. What percentage of parishes have purely Christian employees? I guess we’d have to quit if our employers didn’t like our beliefs, or we theirs.
Seems like the Katlic church is against freedom to make one’s own decision. They want their hypercritical views thrust on everyone. That Cardinal should adopt some unwanted, unloved babies, then speak out, maybe. Instead, he never had a family, a wife or kids, but is going to tell you how to live your family life. Thanks for Roe vs Wade, a true separation of Church & State.
People molest boys. Not religion. People. Do I have to repeat that and yell it through your ear? Governments let people out of jail who molest people. The religion cannot try someone for being a child molester. If they allow people who had a history to continue working, how in the hell is that making them responsible? I happen to have been raised catholic (no longer one) and know a great deal on this. There is no difference between the USA mindset of allowing molesters to work and have a life and letting them out of jail, and churches allowing past molesters to be priests. They do NOT as alter boys have a unique exposure. Mass is done in front of an entire crowd. If little boys are left alone with priests I would say some of that blame goes to the parents, and some is just luck of the draw. You might bump into a homicidal maniac who murders someone that the governement let off of jail for robbing or beating someone (happens every day) but you can’t expect them to premptively put them in the electric chair can you? This argument is so idiotic and I’m getting sick of people blaming the church for the molestations.
Quite frankly I don’t want it yelled in my ear that contraceptives are or should be linked by association to a religion, as well as to child molestation by some wild ape like you. You’ve got a big mouth to judge, like the Catholics I imagine you hate. I left them because they reminded me of you. Judgemental and ignorant of a religion, action, or grouped things together. *rolls eyes*
You’ve got it backwards. The Catholic Church isn’t forcing their beliefs on anyone. That’s what the Federal government is doing. The church is simply saying we don’t want to have to pay for something that they don’t believe in. The employees of these Catholic organizations are free to use birth control if they want.
Funny how this gets spun by the Obama apologists. Trying to make it seem like the abortion issue – “a woman has the right to do what she wants with her body”. Yeah, she does, just don’t make someone else pay for it.
Just as OBa want to supply contraceptives freely, why not also freely supply fertility drugs? And if aborting babies is also considered a contraceptive measure, then why not also consider making babies & fertility treatments a free government measure?
The primary problem is that religion wants to operate as a for-profit business (very profitabley in many cases, by the way) but be exempt from the rules/regs meant to kept protect people from overly agressive profiteering.
Who decides what is Ceasar’s and what is God’s?
It’s a debate that’s been raging (in much history as full on war) for thousand’s of years and will continue…
It’s not about OBama, Gingrich, Romeny, Pope, preacher or any other politico of our times (which God sees as a blink of an eye).
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. The employees don’t get to choose what’s covered by their health plan. The employer does (the Catholic employer). (But Obamacare wants that to change)
As the son of an Irish Catholic mother, I can tell you that a solid percentage of her friends treat the papal guidances as a cafeteria plan. Pick and choose what you will. Deal with the consequences later, possibly, but life makes its own dictates which must be considered. I remember bringing “things you couldn’t buy in Dublin” to family members who REALLY appreciated them!
If you can afford food or dayquil you can afford birth control. It is not expensive in the least. I think everyone is missing the bigger picture:
Birth control is not something the government should fund at all, regardless of religion. The only reason it is a hot item is to gain voters on either side. The government is to provide for the common defense. Most aspects the government provides now are against what our founding fathers wanted. Birth control being considered such a necessity is a joke. To borrow a quote from my brother: If what you do in the bedroom is none of my “business” then why am I paying for it?
Quote from BCBS:
As of today, if an employer is a charity or hospital that has a religious objection to providing contraceptive services as part of their health plan, the insurance company (not the hospital or charity) will be required to offer the woman contraceptive care at no charge. The result is that religious organizations will not have to pay for these services and no religious institutions will have to provide these services directly. As defined by HHS, a religious employer is an organization that has the inculcation of religious values as its purpose, primarily employs and serves people who share its religious tenets, and is a nonprofit organization under sections of U.S. law that refer to “churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches” and to “the exclusively religious activities of any religious order.”
So we all have to pay for contraception for the “bad” Catholics.?
There are no “bad” Catholics; the term is “lapsed” Catholics. The rest are “modern”, just like with Judaism where there are “conservative”, “reform”, and a whole bunch of others with different focuses and rules.
You attack that which you do not understand. I fear there is not the least hope of anyone of the liberal left persuasion even making the attempt to understand the basis of the Church’s opposition to this regulation that has been unlawfully foisted upon it. If you have the open mind you all profess to have (but refuse to see in others), read Humanae Vitae or Deus Caritas Est. But be careful – you might learn something that will rock your world.
I’m all for a woman’s right to any contraception she desires. I also understand the church’s position. If the cost is shifted to the insurance company and the insurance company raises rates to cover that cost then the church is in fact paying for contraception. What’s real doesn’t change when you change the label. A duck is a duck.
Even if they don’t raise the rates to cover the cost of contraception, if the church or hospital is paying the premiums for their employees, they are in fact paying for the contraceptions. That is why even the Evangelicals are now getting upset with Obamacare. How many other “surprises” are we going to find out down the road in obamacare? Remember Polosi said “We have to pass it so we can find out what’s in it.” Well surprise, surprise, surprise.
Obama shifting the cost to the insurance companies is another sham. Companies are not going to do this for free. They will charge in the rate. Every Catholic and person of faith should take it out on the Democrats and run them out of office while we still have Freedom of Religion and Conscience in this country. The Secular Progressives that want to destroy religion are free to move to another country, preferably Venezuela.
Remember back in the 70’s when the Church argued (seriously) that they should be allowed to pay women less than men because the bible says so… Well, this is no different really. The Church, the small business, the large corporation, the little league club, everybody needs to follow the law whether they agree with it or not.
Kurt said: “Remember back in the 70′s when the Church argued (seriously) that they should be allowed to pay women less than men because the bible says so… ”
Do you just make this stuff up? Can you participate in a debate with facts and not fallacies?
I understand that the Church does not believe in contraception. I also understand the government’s concern not to dicriminate against women who are non-Catholic and are entitled to contraceptin benefits.
I also believe that the Church can’t hide their political contempt for the current administration and are in step with the current administration’s opposistion no matter how hard they wish to feign nuetrality in these situations.
The religious freedom shtick is also a convenient opportunity for Cardinal O’Malley to run interference and diversion on the molestation issues of the Church, which he is deeply involved with and has cost the Church tens of millions to settle.
Kurt:
I am aware of no scriptural passage that women should be paid less. Please provide either a cite to the chapter/vers or some evidence that the Church (versus some rogue priest/Bishop) established this as their legal position.
Further, this is not about whether the law conforms to your belief of what is fair; it’s about protecting religion from the law because the law violates the U.S. Constitution’s freedom of conscience and freedom of speech.
The Church’s position against sterliziation, abortion and contraception are deeply rooted in scripture and the inherent dignity of the person. To state the obvious, the Church is entitled to protections that are not afforded to secular employers.
Amen.
Oh, good, a new thread of church v. State arguments! I love those! And I cannot wait until the Republicans start chirping in on how Obamacare and this issue in particular are the downfall of Amerrrikuh.
The scariest part of this whole situation is that pundits and candidates alike want to support a Gringrich or Scantorum because they will return Ammerrrikuh to it’s basic Christian values on which it was founded. Yet where does the line get drawn on contraception to families with too many kids for their wallets; artificial pregnancy for those who desparately want a child; or the older dude who needs little blue pills?
Everything gets rolled back to the Middle Ages, or at least the middle 60’s, which were a mess the first time around. How do values for one get impressed upon another? How does the HR department say “sorry” to one while saying “welcome” to the other?
We are a polyglot population. What percentage of parishes have purely Christian employees? I guess we’d have to quit if our employers didn’t like our beliefs, or we theirs.
I’m just saying.
Seems like the Katlic church is against freedom to make one’s own decision. They want their hypercritical views thrust on everyone. That Cardinal should adopt some unwanted, unloved babies, then speak out, maybe. Instead, he never had a family, a wife or kids, but is going to tell you how to live your family life. Thanks for Roe vs Wade, a true separation of Church & State.
OK so they don’t permit contraception but molesting little boys is OK. Right they can’t pregnant.
This is incredibly old.
People molest boys. Not religion. People. Do I have to repeat that and yell it through your ear? Governments let people out of jail who molest people. The religion cannot try someone for being a child molester. If they allow people who had a history to continue working, how in the hell is that making them responsible? I happen to have been raised catholic (no longer one) and know a great deal on this. There is no difference between the USA mindset of allowing molesters to work and have a life and letting them out of jail, and churches allowing past molesters to be priests. They do NOT as alter boys have a unique exposure. Mass is done in front of an entire crowd. If little boys are left alone with priests I would say some of that blame goes to the parents, and some is just luck of the draw. You might bump into a homicidal maniac who murders someone that the governement let off of jail for robbing or beating someone (happens every day) but you can’t expect them to premptively put them in the electric chair can you? This argument is so idiotic and I’m getting sick of people blaming the church for the molestations.
Quite frankly I don’t want it yelled in my ear that contraceptives are or should be linked by association to a religion, as well as to child molestation by some wild ape like you. You’ve got a big mouth to judge, like the Catholics I imagine you hate. I left them because they reminded me of you. Judgemental and ignorant of a religion, action, or grouped things together. *rolls eyes*
@reality bites, @Realist,
You’ve got it backwards. The Catholic Church isn’t forcing their beliefs on anyone. That’s what the Federal government is doing. The church is simply saying we don’t want to have to pay for something that they don’t believe in. The employees of these Catholic organizations are free to use birth control if they want.
Funny how this gets spun by the Obama apologists. Trying to make it seem like the abortion issue – “a woman has the right to do what she wants with her body”. Yeah, she does, just don’t make someone else pay for it.
Just as OBa want to supply contraceptives freely, why not also freely supply fertility drugs? And if aborting babies is also considered a contraceptive measure, then why not also consider making babies & fertility treatments a free government measure?
The primary problem is that religion wants to operate as a for-profit business (very profitabley in many cases, by the way) but be exempt from the rules/regs meant to kept protect people from overly agressive profiteering.
Who decides what is Ceasar’s and what is God’s?
It’s a debate that’s been raging (in much history as full on war) for thousand’s of years and will continue…
It’s not about OBama, Gingrich, Romeny, Pope, preacher or any other politico of our times (which God sees as a blink of an eye).
Sans Party- it’s not backwards, if the Catholics don’t want contraceptive drugs then the Church won’t have to pay for them at all. Where’s the beef?
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. The employees don’t get to choose what’s covered by their health plan. The employer does (the Catholic employer). (But Obamacare wants that to change)
As the son of an Irish Catholic mother, I can tell you that a solid percentage of her friends treat the papal guidances as a cafeteria plan. Pick and choose what you will. Deal with the consequences later, possibly, but life makes its own dictates which must be considered. I remember bringing “things you couldn’t buy in Dublin” to family members who REALLY appreciated them!
Reminds me of Moses and the Ten Suggestions.
If you can afford food or dayquil you can afford birth control. It is not expensive in the least. I think everyone is missing the bigger picture:
Birth control is not something the government should fund at all, regardless of religion. The only reason it is a hot item is to gain voters on either side. The government is to provide for the common defense. Most aspects the government provides now are against what our founding fathers wanted. Birth control being considered such a necessity is a joke. To borrow a quote from my brother: If what you do in the bedroom is none of my “business” then why am I paying for it?
Quote from BCBS:
As of today, if an employer is a charity or hospital that has a religious objection to providing contraceptive services as part of their health plan, the insurance company (not the hospital or charity) will be required to offer the woman contraceptive care at no charge. The result is that religious organizations will not have to pay for these services and no religious institutions will have to provide these services directly. As defined by HHS, a religious employer is an organization that has the inculcation of religious values as its purpose, primarily employs and serves people who share its religious tenets, and is a nonprofit organization under sections of U.S. law that refer to “churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches” and to “the exclusively religious activities of any religious order.”
So we all have to pay for contraception for the “bad” Catholics.?
There are no “bad” Catholics; the term is “lapsed” Catholics. The rest are “modern”, just like with Judaism where there are “conservative”, “reform”, and a whole bunch of others with different focuses and rules.
Maybe non-members can get a bris on Obama. Youch.
You attack that which you do not understand. I fear there is not the least hope of anyone of the liberal left persuasion even making the attempt to understand the basis of the Church’s opposition to this regulation that has been unlawfully foisted upon it. If you have the open mind you all profess to have (but refuse to see in others), read Humanae Vitae or Deus Caritas Est. But be careful – you might learn something that will rock your world.