Subject: Risk and Loss (Underpayments) = Fat Contingent Profits?:
Posted On: April 2, 2006, 12:22 pm CDT
Posted By: Roger Poe
Comment:
4-2-2006
Before the flood coverage victory dance gets underway by certain insurers, some other claim loss coverage value issues need careful consideration–
Can insurers create illegal profits by collecting (actuarially factored) premium dollars you and I are (knowingly) owed by insurers, and then use adjusters to deliberately and deceptively misadjust claim loss values?
Are actuaries ignorant of deceptive claim settlement practices that can give them synthetic construction loss value data?
Does Allstate Insurance Company, and their associate, Pilot Claim Service, take the lead in the insurance industry in requiring their adjusters to \’knowingly underpay every claim\’?
Is State Farm Insurance, Safeco, USAA, Farmers and other insurers following the Allstate / Pilot lead in Texas, Florida, Maryland, Mississippi, and elsewhere?
From [catadjuster.org] a mature Allstate Insurance Company claims examiner replies to an aspiring contractor turned insurance adjuster;
__________
\”Brooks Todd Posted – 12/18/2003 : 19:10:52
——————————————
I just recieved my adjusters liscence, from The Great State of Texas. I have 22 years in construction (framing, roofing, sales & concrete). I am an excellent estimator, and can build anything from a dawg house to a church.
I am having a hard time finding a job in the adjusting field. I know what my angle is now. Imagine having an adjusters liscence, and being a contractor. I am calling Allstate tommorow. You have to change with the times.
I would not advise calling Allstate if you wish to keep your integrity intact.
After almost 7 years with them and having held a variety of positions, including the sole Quality Evaluator for the entire southern half of Texas, I finally became fed up with their approach to requiring every adjuster to KNOWINGLY UNDERPAY every claim and left them this past July.
The head of Allstate in Texas – Gary Briggs – had the nerve to stand up in front of an agent\’s meeting last spring and say (QUOTE) \”I love the new HOA+ policy! It doesn\’t cover anything and WE STILL GET TO KEEP THEIR MONEY!\”
I used to tell people whose claim I was handling that \”the good hands of Allstate were right here\” as I held my hands out for them. I could no longer do that in good faith and look myself in the mirror so I left.
One of these days the Texas DOI is going to catch up with their property handling practices and then it will all hit the fan!
Good luck with anyone else!
Kevin Hromas Country: USA | Posts: 75
Can insurers (2003, 2004, 2005,2006) contingent windfall profits be generated illegally by such fraudulent claim settlement conduct?
Quote from an insurance regulatory agency;
\”–Indemnity is the basis and foundation of insurance coverage.
The objective is that the insured should neither reap economic gain nor incur a loss if adequately insured.
This objective REQUIRES that the insured receive a payment EQUAL TO that of the covered loss so that the insured will be restored to the same position after the loss as before the loss.
The calculation of this payment results in UNDER-compensation if an insurer deducts prospective contractors\’ overhead and profit and sales tax in determining the actual cash value under a replacement cost policy.
Conversely, THE INCLUSION of contractor´s overhead and profit and sales tax on building materials DOES NOT OVER-COMPENSATE AN INSURED for the amount of the loss BECAUSE these items represent PART OF the insured´s loss.
Generally, the objectives of indemnity will be met if actual cash value is calculated as replacement cost with proper deduction for depreciation.
–there is NO SITUATION in which the deduction from replacement cost of depreciation and contractor´s overhead and profit and/or sales tax on materials will be the correct measure of the insured´s loss.
–Premiums charged must NOT be excessive for the risks to which they apply.
Under a replacement cost policy, the liability limits of the policy and the premium paid by the insured are DETERMINED ON THE BASIS OF the replacement cost of the structure.
The VALUE of contractor´s overhead and profit, as well as sales tax on building materials, has been INCLUDED IN the limit of liability for which the insured has PAID premium.
If the insurer in determining actual cash value EXCLUDES costs that are INCLUDED IN the determination of liability limits, on which the insured´s premium is BASED, the insurer reaps an IllEGAL WINDFALL because the insurer receives premium on insurable values for which loss may never be paid.\”
Actuaries base loss risk data, in part, on claim adjusters loss payment conduct, per management instructions.
Are actuaries being misled by synthetic construction loss claim value adjusting practices?
Is addressing fraudulent claim settlement practices too large of a public issue for insurance regulatory agencies, or the judicial system, to handle?
Would the reinsurance market confidence level be undermined by such unfair claim loss settlement conduct?
How does individual claim settlement replacement cost values / risk loss reserve dollars, verses claim dollars ACTUALLY paid, compare?
Does intentionally underpaying claims equal grand theft of consumer premium payment dollars?
__________
Clear replacement cost coverage values owed is not always volunteered to unsuspecting premium paying consumers, who may only be aware of how much money they received, and not how the money they received was determined.
Kind of like a toy store owner keeping change owed to math naive kids.
The kids are happy with their toys, and yet are clueless as to how they have been financially deceived, so that another can gain.
Can claim loss values, pre-paid for by consumers, be invisibly and deceptively kept from them if insurers / adjusters do not openly disclose loss values that are inherently part of the loss?
The 29% contractor\’s overhead and profit line that is commonly displayed on Allstate replacement cost value construction estimates, only reflects SUBCONTRACTOR overhead and profit loss values and NOT the additional (premium calculated) 20% (minimal)Primary-General Contractor overhead and profit loss value.*
Whether a contractor is used, or not, those replacement loss values are part of the WHOLE value of replacement value policy covered losses…
49% is a lot of premium replacement cost dollar value being paid for.
Claim loss naive adults being shorted 20% / $200.00 per $1,000.00 coverage is serious business. 49% miswsing equals $490.00 per $1,000.00.
I\’ve experienced Allstate, Safeoc, USAA, State Farm, Farmers and the TWIA (Texas Windstorm Insurance Association) adjusters doing this over and over again between Florida and Texas, between 2002-2006, with my clients, and neighbors.
*Allstate / Pilot Claim Service construction speak has been noted in recent hurricane catastrophe zones.
They claim;
1. \’A general contractor is not \”needed\” to replace a roof.\’
2. \’A general contractor is not required because there is not any structural damage\’.
3. \’There is no structural damage, but the amount of work does not require a general contractor\’.
4. \’The homeowner can be the contractor for a single or multiple (roofing, fencing, carpeting) trade \”loss\” repair\’.
5. \’We can get thsi \”done\” for our price\’.
Actually, the construction replacement costs of a structure, established at an insurance agents desk, and underwritten, calculates / anticipates / pre-pays for prospective primary – general contractor involvement to replace the structure by using various speciality trade subcontractors.
Single speciality trade (roof) losses contain primary – general contractor value AND roofing contractor value.
The roof is simply a single part of ALL of the speciality trade construction components that make up a whole structure that are put into place by a primary – general contractor.
Insurance premiums account for primary – general contractor involvement, first and foremost, and their business overhead and profit costs which are applied to all subcontractor trades work, which work includes their own overhead and profit costs.
Unless a structure can \”poof\” into existence on it\’s own, agent calculated
premium values necessarily contain primary – general contractor labor, materials, sales tax, business overhead and profit cost factor value.
Claim loss values should disclose those construction replacement cost values, whether a contractor is used or not.
All said,, claims CAN be knowingly and intentionally underpaid, and deceptively anticipated profits can exist, as long as the general public allows that conduct to go on unaddressed.
Interestingly, the general public is awakening and standing up to such unfair / fraudulent conduct by certain insurers and adjusters conduct.
Not too mention making a lot of serious accusations that don\’t seem to make a lot of sense. Who needs to hire a general contractor for a simple roofing job?
Hey Roger why don\’t you at least try and keep your postings on topic to the story. This story has nothing to do with Allstate underpaying claims. And you\’re really just annoying by posting that stuff on every single hurricane thread. Go fight your cruisade someplace else.
Whether we all realize it or not, this ruling affects all homeowners policies across the entire U.S. Finally a Judge that doesn\’t bend to political pressures!! Had this ruling gone the other way, we personal lines agencies could have been facing dire times.
insray:
Not just the agencies, but companies as well. There is a real underwriting reason flood isn\’t covered on homeowners or other property policies. It\’s why the federal plan was started in 1969.
Yeah, nobody thinks of the insurance industry as the \”good guys\” but this is great news. Imagine the precedent this would have set if the judge had thrown out previously approved, clear language excluding flood!
Whether you live in Mississippi, Louisiana or any other state, this was a win! Now comes the E&O suit against the agent for not selling them flood coverage.
I am glad to see the judicial system properly interpret a contract based on the facts before them and not the emotions of this tragedy.
As for Roger Poe, no matter what he does for a living, I\’m sure it involves the blending of facts, imagination and emotion to extract the most money from the deepest pockets. Maybe Insurance Journal can do a story on him so we can dedicate a discussion soley to his honor.
Don\’t pick on Roger. Some day when he\’s through stocking groceries his boss will tell him to go out sweep the parking lot. His natural response will be \”but that isn\’t in my job description\”.
Then he\’ll remember and understand what a discription of work is all about.
What I want to know is did they pay for the part the wind did damage? I\’m still in the LA & MS area working claims & the companies I\’m working for are doing their best to pay for anything damaged by wind before the flood water hit.
You should send your comment to Scruggy. He seems to think insurance companies are habitually changing engineering reports to avoid paying for wind damage. Your comment completely flies in his face. Wouldn\’t mind being a fly for that one!
According to the South Florida Sun-Sentinel, Roger is n the business: \”Some adjusters may be missing damage, said Roger Poe, an insurance reconstruction specialist for Lake Contracting, a Central Florida company doing work on a number of storm-damaged homes.
He said homeowners should ask what kind of pricing sheet adjusters are using, and about their estimating background.\”
\”I see a lot of damage being overlooked by thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, consistently,\” Poe said.\”
I was close, a contractor who was shot down trying to upgrade an insureds home for more than what they had. Hey Rodger, answer this, why do you change all your cost when a storm hits? I am an adjuster, been there done that, people get greedy. SO DO THE CONTRACTORS
It\’s interesting to note that the replacement cost value / replacement cost value underpayment estimation schemes are not mentioned by ex-contractor, or certain claim \”adjusting\” types, here.
Is it me, or did no one mention, what-so-ever, about deceptive business trade practices by certain insurers that can steal money from their client?
Now why could that be?
Could be that not giving real, or full, names, indicates public domain facts, (facts that certain ones are guilty of helping to exist), makes them want to hide behind insulting and mocking conduct.
Most vermin scurry away when the spotlight comes on, unless ill.
As long as illicit / fake / synthetic construction replacment cost estimations keep fooling the general public, and all that that means, in the premium calculation-to-claim loss ratio / contingent profit loop, via certain insurers and claim \”adjusting\” types, others will keep exposing it.
Confess, or continue to make a great living…that must be a real issue for some…
Insurers don\’t want money taken from them that they don\’t owe…but are all just as dedicated to repay what they do owe?
Yes, I work for an insurance company as a claims adjuster. The comments I present here are my own and not those of the company I work for. Not giving my full name ensures that no connection is made between my views and the company.
Now for a few definitions:
\”Replacement cost value underpayment estimation schemes\” – paying local market prices for repairs, including catastrophe induced market condition increases, as opposed to the artifitialy inflated prices charged by most storm chasing contractors.
\”Vermin\” – (1) an excluded cause of loss; (2) contractor
\”Premium calculation-to-claim loss ratio / contingent profit loop\” – More contractor mumbo jumbo.
\”Roger Poe\” – Contractor extrordinair; Internet forum lizard; blessed with the gift of gab;
I have a question on flood insurance.
A man called me today about flood insurance. The new flood map (in a city in north Texas) shows his house is in a 100 year flood zone. He\’s lived in this house for 45 years. The reason for the flood dynamic is new construction upstream and down stream of his house. Rates of drainage have changed.
I quoted flood full replacement cost and contents coverage for his home. He understands the reasons for the changes.
Coverage he wants is actual cash value on the house to meet his finance (re-finance) requirement and no contents coverage. How do I get him to do the coverage he really needs?
SHOULD I :
1. Beat him into submission with a stick?
2. Tell his loan company to call in the loan?
3. Call a federal marshall?
4. Have him sign an acknowledgement that his choice of coverage won\’t buy him a new front door?
5. Tell him he\’s foolish and not let him buy coverage from me?
As an insured of StateFarm, and a Katrina claiment, I wonder which of you \’POSTING\’ can be unemotional if you lose everything and 2 friends – 1 during the \”stormM and 1 later trying to save some of what was left. I had NOTHING left. Now the fault of my carrier is that it seems obvious that the claim folks should be faulted strongly for coming to conclusions based on little knowledge, experience or integrity… and that they [adjusters up to and including management and a \”contracted\” \”consultant\” or 2 not doing a complete examination of the facts—for instance, disregarding ALL wind damage!!!! 1- the 1st adjuster was a Texan who had never adjusted such cat claims, and did not call or write back after promising to call as soon as on the site of the total destroyed home[s], but someone eventually called a few months after the loss to tell me there is no claim because we \”belive if \’IT \’ got wet, it is ALL FLOOD. As a former insurance person, about 40 years in agency, company administration , training [many claims people, too] and with the Risk Manager designation am not only emotional but ashamed of not only what I have personally experienced but the many horrifying tales my neighbors have told me re State Farm and most of the cos. you poster have mentioned–of delays, of ridulously inadequate settlement offers. When the only agency in town represents only one company…..but you all afe likely familiar with that old non-captive saying. I am past my CSO table time of expiration but am gonnakeeponkeepinon kicking at poor,inadequte and disreputable claims handling–as I have done for several decades…all successful to date. None of you have said anything about being in a situation of total devistation that you are unable to imagine–it MUST be seen in person. I have been in many hurricanes–Katrina was a beastly cruel destroyer–I\’ve been an agent, salesman, marketing rep etc. and an insured–and licensed all lines in about a dozen states–nothing can prepare you for going through a few blocks of ANY south Miss. towns and cities. Any thing you folks can manage in improving the entire claims operations of insurance companies, I implore you do it. It is soirely needed–regardless of the companies backing off further and further from being what we pay them to be!!
Resorting to ad hominem is a sure sign the IQ level of the conversation is dropping sharply.
Keep on topic, define your debate hotpoints and try to be professional.
There is no conspiracy to defraud insureds on the part of highly scrutinized and regulated insurance companies.
Quite the opposite, it\’s these same companies that are regulary defrauded by thier customers and the contractors.
I can hardly blame them for trying to protect themselves from unscrupulous claim filers.
Mr. Poe, you have alienated yourself from serious discourse on this any other topic by calling industry professionals (some of whom may very well be adjusting for work you are doing) \”vermin\”. And you cannot slam online discreteness when you yourself failed to disclose your clearly biased position in the issue.
Please understand that catastrophes often drastically change the availability, AND COSTS of common materials / equipment, available qualified labor, food / housing costs, building codes / qualified inspector-inspection processes, project funding flow, project holding costs, office / field overhead, insurances, etc.
Throw in time (equals money) spent reasoning with certain construction loss value \”adjusting\” personality types that believe and preach that real world reconstruction market costs are artifically (unfairly) inflated.
Premium rates go up as risk go up.
So do local construction investment risk costs.
Before the idea gets locked into your mind for years to come, by certain catastrophe claim managers propaganda, (that all contractors \’rip insurers / consumers off\’ in post cat-markets), try running a reconstruction business in one.
Then come back and comment.
Until then, try to at least remember the above as you highlight and copy line items into your reconstruction \”estimate\”.
By the way, the worst so – called \”adjuster\”, and \”contractor\”, is one who thinks that they are the final word on actual fair market costs…when in all actuality, chaotic market conditions, and ALL that that means, is the \”fair and reasonable\” final word.
Producing a post-cat, or daily, reconstruction estimate that accounts for ALL damage, SAFE & SOUND reconstruction procedures, and business sustainable pricing, is something that can look artificial, to one\’s who are inexperienced, and/or arrogant.
Oh brother.
Now we get into insurance-to-value issues. The very hardest thing to do is \”over-insure\” a house so additional costs are covered. The companies go nuts on it and the prospective buyers accuse the agent of trying to rip them off by over-selling them.
Poe – Start a company do it \”right\” and if you can remain solvent for 5 years and get a decent financial rating you\’ll get a large percentage of market share.
In other words, put some money where your *****in\’ is.
\”Mr. Poe, you have alienated yourself from serious discourse on this any other topic by calling industry professionals (some of whom may very well be adjusting for work you are doing) \”vermin\”. And you cannot slam online discreteness when you yourself failed to disclose your clearly biased position in the issue.\”
__________
For clarity sake–
Vermin – \’an irritating or obnoxious person\’ (Google: define vermin).
Scandalous (post 2005 hail storm / post hurricane Rita) issues I, and others, personally witness consumers and neighbors going through with Allstate Insurance, (Pilot Claim Service), State Farm Insurance, USAA, Farmers, the TWIA and etc. insurers, is real.
In-the-trenches field claim loss estimation data proves what policy holders are going through.
Seasoned \”Industry\” insiders also know what has been, and still is, going on with trusting consumers.
Consider the following Allstate Insurance (industry insider) testimony found online, at a catatastrophe adjusters web-site;
__________
Brooks Todd Posted – 12/18/2003 : 19:10:52
——————————————
I just recieved my adjusters liscence, from The Great State of Texas. I have 22 years in construction (framing, roofing, sales & concrete). I am an excellent estimator, and can build anything from a dawg house to a church.
I am having a hard time finding a job in the adjusting field. I know what my angle is now. Imagine having an adjusters liscence, and being a contractor. I am calling Allstate tommorow. You have to change with the times.
I would not advise calling Allstate if you wish to keep your integrity intact.
After almost 7 years with them and having held a variety of positions, including the sole Quality Evaluator for the entire southern half of Texas, I finally became fed up with their approach to requiring every adjuster to KNOWINGLY underpay every claim and left them this past July.
The head of Allstate in Texas – Gary Briggs – had the nerve to stand up in front of an agent\’s meeting last spring and say (QUOTE) \”I love the new HOA+ policy! It doesn\’t cover anything and WE STILL GET TO KEEP THEIR MONEY!\”
I used to tell people whose claim I was handling that \”the good hands of Allstate were right here\” as I held my hands out for them. I could no longer do that in good faith and look myself in the mirror so I left.
One of these days the Texas DOI is going to catch up with their property handling practices and then it will all hit the fan!
Good luck with anyone else!
Kevin Hromas Country: USA | Posts: 75
I always try to sell my clients Flood Insurance.
I always try and insure to value.
It\’s amazing how tight homeowners are BEFORE an event.
Finally, I hope your personal life improves, Roger and I hope I or my insureds never have to deal with you.
My neighbor has Allstate Homeowners Insurance and he was recently notified that Allstate Homeowners is pulling out of Florida. He was provided with a referral to another company. This other company of course has alot higher rates.
If your claimant clients are going through what Allstate, State Farm, Safeco, USAA and the TWIA are doing to their clients in Texas, you may want to have some credible contractors at your side to help those same clients.
Those contractors, using the same construction estimating programs, and construction data, that insurers use, can easily prove if insurers and their adjusting associates are honorable, or not.
Trying to discredit ones who are aware of deceptive carrier conduct, won\’t hold up under public scrutiny.
Gloria, this is NOT the first time Allstate is leaving a state….they pulled out of FLA decades ago…I lived there about 40 or so years ago–I think they even left a beautiful office in St Petersburg—for a while. Many companies pulled out of Corpus Christi, Texas after a hurricane– for a while. What a subject for Business School distertations ! I was in Corpus Christi to get business as so many \”BIG\” companies were non-renewing. One of the \”BIG\” companies started \”picking the cream\” and until the next \”pull out\” will have made piles of profit!!! What the captives will do if their loses are too high?? Put their agents out of business? What has occured in the past? They will almost ALLWAYS RE-underwrite–another of my pet peeves, inadequate underwriting. But I am an old grump—seen an excess of foolish underwriting. Just \”bah-humbug\”!
Allstate isn\’t leaving Florida. They\’re trimming their market share. Most of the non-renewals are monoline home policies, and Allstate agents have plenty of other companies they can write through. Allstate rates in Florida are good, so the choice was either increase rates for everyone, or get rid of a lot of people who only have their home insured. Anyway, Corpus is a sitting duck, but a lot of the property is underwritten by the TWIA, so no worries for private insurance companies.
Thank you both for posting your opinions,too. I feel like at least 2 people have my back, and I have yours!
Please keep it up. Thanks, too, to the person who told the insider portion of the truth. God bless you, honey!
So what if we tick off these glorified snake oil sellers?
As for the judge who made this ruling, is he by any chance related to our wonderful MDOT & Insurance Commissioners? Idiocy seems to run amuck in that bunch! And I am betting neither he nor any of his family was affected by this storm is a big way!
BTW pre-storm cost to replace our roof: $6,300 (remember, we had an appraisal in 7/05 AND replacement value insurance in effect). Post storm estimate $8,500. Bad hands paid-$3,700 and said if you don\’t like it, get some estimates. Got 5, submitted all even though I know I didn\’t need to, was told be happy with what you got!
Well, what I got is a blue FEMA tarp still shining brightly in the moonlight and a pile of shingles in the yard ready for a roofer willing to make 50 cents putting the new roof on.
Keep those comments coming.
HURRICANES PRODUCE WIND AND WATER DAMAGE.
THE HOMEOWNERS INS SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR WATER DAMAGE BUT THEY ARE TRYING TO GET OUT OF PAYING FOR WIND DAMAGE.
ADD YOUR ANNUAL PREMIUM.
ADD YOUR POLICY DEDUCTIBLE.
ADD YOUR ADDITIONAL HURRICANE DEDUCTIBLE
(15% OF THE VALUE OF YOUR POLICY)
ADD THE FACT THAT THE INS. WILL ONLY PAY ABOVE THE WATER LINE.
IF YOU ARE LUCKY THEY WILL PAY FOR A NEW ROOF MINUS ALL OF YOUR DEDUCTIBLES AND MINUS DEPRECIATION.
THE HOMEOWNER STILL LOOSES AND THE INSURANCE COMPANIES STILL GO TO THE BANK.
FLOOD IS FLOOD BUT THE INSURANCE COMPANIES MUST PAY FOR WIND DAMAGES.
IF NOT, ALLOW FEMA TO SELL HURRICANE INSURANCE INCLUDING BOTH FLOOD/WIND DAMAGE.
THIS WOULD RESOLVE WIND VS WATER FOREVER.
P.S. WHEN I SEE/HEAR ALLSTATE OR STATE FARM COMMERCIALS, I GET SICK TO MY STOMACH. HOW DARE THEY PRETEND TO BE GOOD NEIGHBORS. WE TRUSTED THEM AND WE PAID THEM MUCH MORE THAN FLOOD INSURANCE COST TO FINANCIALLY PROTECT OUR HOMES. THEY REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE WIND DAMAGE.
AMERICA MUST STAND UP AND BECOME UNITED OR WE\’RE GOING TO BE THE SLAVES IN OUR OWN COUNTIES. EVERYONE KEEPS MAKING THE RULES FOR US AND CHANGING THEM TOO. WE ARE THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF THIS COUNTRY. THE LAW ABIDING CITIZENS, THE HOMEOWNERS AND YET WE HAVE NO RIGHTS.
YOU ARE EITHER HONEST OR DISHONEST AND YOU HAVE A CHOICE.
To all of you who \”feel\” the rule of contract law should always bend in the favor of those in need…
GET OVER IT!!!
Contracts are based on the facts contained within and not on how either party \”feels\” when performance of the contract provisions is executed.
The mortgage on your home is a contract between you and the lender. The bank gave you money to purchase your home under a contract that you would pay them back on a schedule. Have any of you ever paid additional interest (not principle) to your lender just because you felt like it? No. Your contract states what you owe, and you stick to the schedule. That\’s what reputable insurance companies strive to do.
Now why do you \”FEEL\” that the insurance companies should pay more than they owe on your contract. FLOOD damage isn\’t covered and if you didn\’t pay for it you don\’t get paid on it.
And another thing, nobody PAID for a Hurricane Deductible Endorsement; you got a premium discount for having the Hurricane Deductible Endorsement! There is no coverage provided by Hurricane Deductible Endorsement, it simply means that for damage COVERED by the policy, which occurs from and during a declared hurricane, you pay a higher portion of you loss. This feature helps keep insurance available and affordable.
If the Mississippi A.G. gets his way, insurance in Mississippi will not be affordable, and possibly not available from the private sector. Of course this bodes well for the socialists among us.
\”I quoted flood full replacement cost and contents coverage for his home. He understands the reasons for the changes.
Coverage he wants is actual cash value on the house to meet his finance (re-finance) requirement and no contents coverage.
How do I get him to do the coverage he really needs?
SHOULD I :
1. Beat him into submission with a stick?
2. Tell his loan company to call in the loan?
3. Call a federal marshall?
4. Have him sign an acknowledgement that his choice of coverage won\’t buy him a new front door?
5. Tell him he\’s foolish and not let him buy coverage from me?\”
__________
The question / issue:
\’How do I get him to do the coverage he really needs?\’
Answer: Maybe his personal finances are such that what you think he need\’s, and what he may know he needs, are at odds with each other.
For your other questions:
1. Beat him into submission with a stick?
No. Even if you are properly insured.
2. Tell his loan company to call in the loan?
No. You might be giving them wrong info.
3. Call a federal marshall?
No. They don\’t provide that kind of service. Yet.
4. Have him sign an acknowledgement that his choice of coverage won\’t buy him a new front door?
No. No, wait…maybe yes.
5. Tell him he\’s foolish and not let him buy coverage from me?\”
\”Contracts are based on the facts contained within and not on how either party \”feels\” when performance of the contract provisions is executed.\”
Huh?
Aren\’t facts of a contract based on feelings of something fair happening?
If one feels others are suspect of cheating them, then proves it contracturally, couldn\’t it be said that contracts are based on intelligent / rational \”feelings\” and expectations?
Contracts-of-adhesion–have a weighted \”feel\”, come commitment time, leaning in the favor of the person who did not write the contract, but who also agreed to it.
Aren\’t contract term facts, stated or implied, actually based on how all involved feel about said contract context?
I can somewhat agree that the details included in standard contracts are based on what each party \”feels\” should be included. But once a contract is agreed upon and signed, the provisions are the facts that direct the performance of each party. This can not be changed later unless agreed upon by both parties. As a \”CONTRACTor\”, you should understand that basic principle.
Let\’s say you and I sign a contract stating you will construct a sunroom on the rear of my house for $10,000.00. The contract contains all of the specs for construction and materials to be used, and that I will pay you in full upon satisfactory completion of the job.
Now, as you near completion of my sunroom, I \”FEEL\” that you should also install a ten person hot tub. My neighbor has a hot tub in his sunroom and it just wouldn\’t be FAIR for me not to have one.
No, I\’m not going to pay you anything more, I just \”FEEL\” that a sunroom should have a hot tub.
How do you \”FEEL\” about installing the hot tub for free?
I bet your construction contracts contain clauses pertaining to change orders.
The insurance policy says we pay for wind, not flood (and storm surge is flood). If there is evidence of wind damage, we pay for the wind damage. If the flood washed away the entire house, then there is no evidence of wind damage; no coverage for flood damage. No covered loss.
Some like to say the wind came in before the flood, and blew the house down, then the flood washed it all away. No coverage for the flood damage, and there\’s no evidence of the wind damage. Again, no coverage. That\’s why the policy includes a concurrent causation language.
OK , Smart Guy, how, if the building and contents is STILL THERE, BUT the 3rd story and 2 nd stories are not spread and just a bit jumbled. Large and very tall [ 100 foot high ?] trees are BROKEN at anywhere from the lower third, around the middle and anywhere else of the length of the trees in the neighborhood, AND \”point\” in every direction!!!!! it is scattered on the ground, bulldozers pushed some of the structure off the road and yet most of the support posts remain. Could this have been some tornadiac activity?? There have been tornados during past hurricanes and \”tropical storms\”. What do you say experts…do you say like those companies, State Farm, Allstate etc. How does 1 washing machine of 3 near its original position, the others in different directions etc.?? 40 to 100 feet away? All having been enclosed in a FEMA approved laundry room? Oh , I have lived in and through about 10 hurricanes from the 1930\’s….how about you and the totally inexperinced claims people from Iowa,Ill., Arizona, etc. who\’ve never seen an area hit by the eye of a hurricane—this one the second in almost exactly the same path as Camille. Maybe the annual bonuses caused a problem in trying to know the truth…when there does not appear to be imperical PROOF there was NO wind damage, just that there was some flooding in the area…ergo,[and I quote the St. Farm claim person. \”If it got wet,we won\’t give you a penny.\”
Charles, it sounds like your adjuster wasn\’t too on the ball. I do work for a major insurance company, live in Louisiana and have worked the last three years worth of hurricanes. If you have a water line in your home (which everyone does, it is just a matter of looking for it) then anything below that line is not going to be covered. Every adjuster I know works his/her tail off to make people happy. We do our best to be fair, equitable and honest with our customers. Let me tell you something, we have a great deal of empathy for those people who are un/underinsured. The problem lies, in that it is NOT our responsibility to make you whole after a loss if you didn\’t pay for the coverage you needed. I can\’t tell you how many $400,000 homes I saw w/ $100,000 worth of coverage and no contents coverage. Do I feel bad for them? Yep, you bet I do. Is there a dang thing I can do about it? Nope! People think we have a choice in the matter and we don\’t. It is pretty well spelled out in your policy (as the judge above ruled) what is covered and what isn\’t. Just because YOU choose poor coverage or coverage w/ a fly by night company (not necessarily you, but in general), that does not make it our problem. We aren\’t sitting there with you when you decide on a 10% hurricane deductible instead of paying extra premium for a $500.00 hurricane deductible. Even if we had been, be a big boy and live w/ your decision. People have no idea how hard we work to try and help people. All everyone wants to do is whine and blame their own poor decisions on the insurance company or FEMA. You right, you may be a victim……….of YOUR OWN decisions.
You wrote a thoughtful note, and I DO understand that Flood is NOT covered in typical property coverages any more. But it is in the FEMA NFIP policies. My concern is the errors, mistakes and poor attitude of entirely too many claims people–and the incorrect and improper decisions and pronouncements so many make without taking the time to research, check, and EVEN READ THE POLICIES before they attempt to foster on the \”INSURED\” to the insured\’s detriment. Now, I just read [on the net] that the Miss. Ins. Commisioner has required that the companies must accept \”eye witness accounts\” and other \”evidence\” claiments bring to the table in arbitration and must \”clearly demonstrate the cause of the loss.\” \”when the issue is whether the loss was caused by wind or water. THAT IS WHAT HAS BEEN FESTERING IN MY GUT, TONY. [I really think that the \”adjuster\” never even walked on the property as it was just a pile of debris—but did not even attempt to look at the neighborhood. No one asked me about the losses at my condo, or any of my neighbors to my knowledge. Did they know ANY of the loss history of the immediate area? I was one of the earliest there 23 years — saw the tornado damages, a bunch of tropical storms and hurricanes, stayed at home for almost all of them…..the ?claims inspector? called to ask directions,she promised to call soon as possible and would send me photos. Never heard from her again. Tony, I am not perfect, but I instructed the IIA courses to many claims people and had to explain coverage to correct even Claims Vice Presidents-Attorneys in court, explain to experienced claims people that a car that rolled into a pond is covered under Comprehensive Coverage, not Collision which usually has a higher deductible, that there is both an amount and percentage involved is certain \”crime coverage\”. I\’ve been retired for over 20 years, and worked all lines in many capacities [ARM, too] and I can also make a mistake. But I highly resent any person having \’control\’ over $$$$ that wrongly adjust, appraise, incorectly determine the amounts and improperly and uncaringly say things for any reason, \”If it got wet, its flood and you won\’t get a dime [ or penny]. I also have no respect for their \”professionalism\” or their superiors that allow such activities. It isn\’t always a matter of ignorance or education, it is also attitudes, an open vs closed minds. I received a photocopy of an engineers report saying there was flooding.[Which I\’ve heard was perhaps not necessarily exactly totally accurate]So I took a look for myself. My , my, evidently [a word Like evidence] I saw things that was not visible before. So can one deny windstorm damage when there was some water damage??? It ain\’t over until its over…and I may be old but my will will continue the fight at least to my first line of heirs…that was a really great place to live!!! See, I said I\’m not perfect, too wordy…came from reading too many insurance contracts and endorsements, arguing with underwriters to write sensibly and claims folks to settle quickly, correctly and sometimes creatively. Sometimes I really miss being in the industry–but it makes me a little sad to have to see what a horror it seems to have become. Dam!
Charles,
I know a little what you refer to. I have been involved in insurance for nearly 10 years. I have seen VERY good adjusters who work their tails off get little or no credit (or kindness/consideration) from emmployers or customers. The point that I was trying to make is that every C/R I have worked with tried their very best to provide the very best service to their customers. It really gripes my A$$ when I get on here and find everyone griping about those who worked their tails off, VOLUNTEERED to be away from their family, spent months in a place where you were sleeping two to a bed and were happy to have a bed or (as I did) go so friggin sick that when they went to a hospital, once the nurses took a pulse/ox sat, they immediately (and I do mean immediately) rushed that person to intensive care and drug a doctor in to see them (I am not the only one this happened to). People like Roger kill me. All they want to do is gripe, complain and screw the crap out of any person/insurance company they can. People like you who have seen both sides of the business need to provide a little more even treatment of those who do their best. Are their imcompetent boobs out there????? You bet! I worked for a casualty TM out of Nevada who didn\’t know her head from her a$$ when it comes to a property claim and she was reviewing my files??????? The major problem w/ this past season was that there was just plain too many claims. Independant companies were hiring anyone with a pulse to fill positions to provide Reps to the insurance companies. BUT, if they hadn\’t people would have called (they did anyway) griping about the lack of service. I spent several months in South Louisiana (I live in La.) and several months in Florida. I would rather spend a year in Florida than 1 month in South La. The people in Fl. were much more understanding, pleasant, accomodating and considerate. The difference was beyond words. I have heard mixed reviews from friends in south Miss.
One thing that I think everyone needs to remember is that it is the INSURED\’s responsibility to PROVE damage. I am sorry, but if you have a 4\’ water mark in your home and the surrounding area has 4\’ water marks from flood and you want me to cover the carpet under wind, it ain\’t happening. That being said, I know of one person (me) who had a house that had 7 LARGE pine trees on it. I did what a decent claim rep would do. Everything below the water mark was flood. Everything that was damaged (from holes in the roof, ceilings etc. was covered under wind. Sorry folks, but if it was below the water mark, FLOOD. If it was above it and not specifically excluded, Wind. If no wind damage (roof still there and no trees on house, all windows are there, etc and you want me to cover mold 7\’ up the wall….. best thing I can tell folks is to read the policy.
I guess I am not perfect either. I am also wordy. I like nearly every claim rep I know, just do the best we can. It really amazes me how many people want to whine and complain and blame someone else when they were to lazy, unintelligent or just plain stupid to read their policy.
I have two sayings, I use all the time in my work, that I think people need to remember for future reference….. (1)There was only one perfect person, and I AIN\’T him (but I do try my best). (2) You get what you pay for. If you choose a crap insurance company to save $20 bucks a year (See the good hands folks) don\’t gripe when you get lousy service.
Wrong genius. Again, you and most others here generalize. Number one, you get what you pay for. Number two, READ your policy. It is YOUR responsibility to PROVE YOUR LOSS. Unfortunately, most claim reps I know are NOT psychic. We can\’t \”see\” what happened two weeks before we got there. Number three, you think it would be better if the insurance companies left????? Chuckles, you need to talk to some of the folks that live on the east side of Highway 95 in Ft. Lauderdale, Miami etc. They have to have a Citizen\’s policy (written by the state, not some \”cheap\” insurance company) to cover ANY wind loss. THEN it has to be a declared storm. Then they get the joy of paying (approximately) TWICE as much for a policy that ONLY covers wind damage under set circumstances as they do for their homeowners policy.
Call an agent in Fl. Ask him for a rat quote. It will blow your mind. Imagine your insurance premiums doubling for the same coverage (BTW, you think the insurance companies are strict???? They THROW $ at customers compared to the State).
I know there are a lot of people upset about their loss or the way they were treated. I have a lot of empathy and sympathy for them. UNTIL they show their ignorance about the insurance policy that they NEVER read. You have NO idea the number of people who got mad at me because their flood policy provides NO additional living benefits if their home becomes uninhabitable. READ YOUR POLICY FOLKS. If you don\’t like it, pay more for more/better coverage.
Then let them leave the USA.
What are we loosing?
They don\’t pay anyway.
We can keep our Annual Premiums.
We can afford to rebuild above the water line and still save money.
They don\’t need to pay for flood damage.
They Must Pay for Wind Damages.
They want to blame all damage on flood.
That is my beef with the Industry.
You stated;
_____
\”People like Roger kill me. All they want to do is gripe, complain and screw the crap out of any person/insurance company they can.\”
_____
What rotten and presumptuous bridge of logic did you use to make such a statement?
My commentary, based on verifiable / hardcopy evidence of past and ongoing claim settlement conduct, by certain insurance companies, Allstate included,
is real.
Their damaged property underassessment, people handling, and claim underpayment schemes are fine-tuned, polished, and transparent, to the trained eye, and mind.
They know perfectly well what they are doing to their trusting clients.
They know that convincing advertising and collecting premiums, and collectively deceptive cooperation within, and outside, their organizational ranks to NOT pay out claims in an appropriate manner, case-by-case, commonly equals higher (illegal) contingent profits.
When I see something underhanded happening to my clients, relatives and neighbors, I, like others, stand up for them.
When I see them being preyed on by people who pretend to love them, but are just trying to deceive them, I stand up for them.
How you concluded that exposing clever, hard-to-detect and fraudulent carrier / adjuster conduct means that I somehow \”screw the crap out of any person/insurance company they can\”, is typical doublespeak from someone who seems to know better.
As for your comment about people needing to read and \’understand\’ their policies…many attorneys are stumped by them.
Did you totally understand every promised word, and it\’s common meaning, stated or implied, in the contract you signed for for owning your car, before you signed?
Do you think about that contract often enough to make sure you fully understand your rights, based on current judicial decisions, and how in the future your polished understanding may not match some deceptively clever attorney\’s
\”understanding\”, and protect yourself, knowledge-wise, accordingly?
Many people can THINK / BELIEVE they are paying for something, because of THE MANNER in which the seller explained the benefit of their product or service to the investor.
Honorable insurers, agents and adjusters exist.
Sadly though, certain high profile insurance companies business actions, based on fear and greed, can make people suffer, unnessesarily.
Those (nationwide) actions are not going on unnoticed, and will not go on unaddressed by the proper authorities.
Roger,
I have never worked for Allstate (and never will), so I can\’t speak to their policies, whether written, verbal, actual, factual or implied.
Having said that, allow me to issue you a challenge….. Find one attorney who handles contract law who will admit to being, and I quote, \”stumped\” by an insurance policy and next time I am in Florida, I will by you a soda of your choice.
Every lawyer in the world that practices contact law thinks they can interpret an insurance policy. Does that mean that reasonable minds can not disagree? Nope, sure doesn\’t, but in the same vein when a contact you sign states specific causes of loss are excluded, you will always find a lawyer who will try to \”make a name for himself\” by taking on the insurance companies (and taking 33% or better of any settlement) and hoping to win.
As for another issue that you point out about buying a car. IF I didn\’t understand a provision in a contact, it would be explained &/or delineated further in writing BEFORE I signed the contract. Have you ever heard the expression Caveat Emptor???
The reason I feel the way I do (believe it or not, this is America and I am allowed to form an opinion about someone based on whatever criteria I choose) about you is the thread of posts you have authored. You seem (granted, I have not met nor dealt with you personally) to voice every view point that my years of experience have taught me is inimicable in someone who wants little more than to make as much $ as quickly as possible and yet you pose as the advocate of the poor beknighted consumer. BUT, when it comes time to talking to the consumer away from the adjuster all the sudden there are a myriad of ways that the job can be done to save the consumer their deductible, and/or get the insurance company to pay for upgrades, etc. I don\’t need to delineate, you are obviously intelligent enough to know what I am referring to.
As for my opinion of you and what type of contractor you are……. I can sum it up in a couple of statements. Allow me one caveat to state, that I care little about the quality of your work. First, I came on this thread and freely announced my profession and why I took the position I have. You hid your profession, attempting to let others make \”erroneous preferably\” judgements about your occupation so that it would appear you were unbiased. To continue, that type of action to me indicates someone that I would consider untrustworthy. To conclude, I wouldn\’t pay you to build a doghouse in my backyard.
As I have stated, there ARE bad adjusters or at the very least very inexperienced ones out there. My main gripe is that people want to come here and accuse a judge of improper conduct or accuse all insurance companies of improper conduct in handling claims, when in reality all it is, is a gripe session. They didn\’t get what they wanted (because of an exclusion in the policy (that THEY should take responsibility for as they signed a contract for it, bought it and paid for it) so all of the sudden everyone in the world is against them. GROW UP. What happens in your life is YOUR responsibility to handle, not the Federal governments, not the State or Local governments, not Roger Poe\’s, not your Momma\’s (unless you are underage of course in which case you don\’t have the right to enter into a contract legally)! IF you sign something you don\’t understand, don\’t expect the rest of the world to come to your aid. Stand on your own two feet and be an adult. If you don\’t understand it, DON\’T sign it until you do. Anyone who let\’s a fast talking salesman push them into something they don\’t understand deserves NO pity. The rest of us do, as these morons have the right to vote.
As for my \”doublespeak\”…….. I am SOOO very tired of people like you who want to use the word love when dealing in business. I would \”Love\” to be able to have enough time w/ each of my customers to know whether I want to love them or not, much less develop such a strong emotion towards them. Until I am cloned, empathy and sympathy for their loss is the best I can do. Who are you trying to kid? \”People who pretend to love them\”…. Come on. Adjusters are so busy, we barely have time to talk to those we have married, sired or already have a relationship with to get our customers to \”love\” us or for us to \”love\” them.
\”Clever, hard-to-detect and fradulent carrier/adjuster conduct\”. How about this. I pay for what is covered. What the insured (as required by the contract) can PROVE to me is a covered loss. If they can\’t and I can\’t in all honesty and (here it finally comes) in good faith, find a way to cover it, then it isn\’t covered. I realize I am a bit different then some adjusters, but I live by the motto, \”I look for coverage, not exclusions (or exclusionary language)\”. I truly do as does every adjuster that I have ever met that works for the same company I do. Lumping everyone together and lambasting us, does little else than to prove my original opinion of you was correct.
Lastly, you cast a VERY wide net w/ your accusations against \”high profile insurance companies\”. I would strongly suggest to you, not to name names, unless you have something called PROOF. I am just guessing, but I bet you couldn\’t handle (nor would you be successful in defending) a libel suit.
BTW, your (implied) threat about the, \”nationwide (didn\’t know you were a licensed GC in all 50 states or is it just the contiguous 48) actions are not going unnoticed, and will not go on…….etc\”. I have very little doubt (yeah, right) that you have the ability to make the authorities address the issue. My guess is that you HOPE something will happen along the same lines as I HOPE Florida, Louisiana and Mississippi will enforce their (better watch out) gouging laws.
Might I suggest you get some provable facts before you rant and rave about/against those that have \”been there and done that\”. Just a thought.
Ciao Baby.
You seem to feel the best defense is a good (convoluted) offense.
Let me state once more…honorable insurers and adjusters exist.
Let me state it again…honorable insurers and adjusters exist.
One more time…honorable insurers and adjusters exist.
Too, my commentary is provided for the general public as a heads-up for helping them figure out their damaged structure losses, and making sure predatory insurers are receiving the public recognition they deserve.
By-the-way Tony, I\’m hardly alone in my documental evidence against Allstate / Pilot Claim Service, State Farm, Farmers, Safeco, USAA and the TWIA.
Their very clients hold proof of their underpayment schemes.
You stated about me;
\”Lastly, you cast a VERY wide net w/ your accusations against \”high profile insurance companies\”. I would strongly suggest to you, not to name names, unless you have something called PROOF. I am just guessing, but I bet you couldn\’t handle (nor would you be successful in defending) a libel suit.
BTW, your (implied) threat about the, \”nationwide (didn\’t know you were a licensed GC in all 50 states or is it just the contiguous 48) actions are not going unnoticed, and will not go on…….etc\”. I have very little doubt (yeah, right) that you have the ability to make the authorities address the issue. My guess is that you HOPE something will happen along the same lines as I HOPE Florida, Louisiana and Mississippi will enforce their (better watch out) gouging laws.
Might I suggest you get some provable facts before you rant and rave about/against those that have \”been there and done that\”. Just a thought.
Ciao Baby.\”
__________
Did you pick up on the General Contractor status by the continued presence of my e-mail address?
I\’m hardly hiding my identity now, am I Tony?
Licensed GC in all 50 states?
No Tony, I\’m licensed where I do business, and I communicate with others across the nation, and help track carrier / adjuster market conduct.
Oh, and as for PROOF of underpayment schemes…not to worry, there is HARD proof a plenty.
Quick for-instance, I just received a State Farm estimate from a client yesterday.
Now check out this summary page, and see if you can help the public understand it is NOT a synthetic construction
\”estimate\”;
Summary For Hurricane
$10,103.19 Line Item Total
$114.67 6.000% Materials Sales Tax __________
$10,217.86 Replacement Cost Value
$ 2,607.44 Less Depreciation
__________
$ 7,610.42 Actual Cash Value
$ 761.04 Overhead @ 10%
$ 761.04 Profit @ 10%
__________
$ 9,132.50 Actual Cash Value Incl. O&P
$ 2,272.00 Less Deductible
__________
$ 6,860.50 Net Actual Cash Value Payment
Two (hard-to-detect) synthetic / false construction estimation methodology points…
1. Notice that Contractor overhead and profit was NOT applied to the ACTUAL projected loss reconstruction value sum, ($10,217.86), but to the DEPRECIATED $7,610.42 sum. Hmmmm…
2. Notice that the estimated business profit value is THE SAME as the business overhead factor.
Since a anticipated (10% profit margin) can only be accomplished by measuring it against the WHOLE investment risk of a project (hard costs and overhead), a SYNTHETIC / FALSE profit amount exists.
Again, Hmmmm…
Soooo, See how TRUE Contractor O&P is missing…twice!?
Do that to untold tens-of-thousands of so-called construction \”estimates\” and…well…you know what that is called…
I have been an adjuster for six years. Having grown up with a homebuilder and insurance agent for parents, it was a natural choice after grad school. Until December \’05, I worked for a large catastrophe adjusting firm. My husband and I worked together while traveling the country, earning a fabulous income, and meeting extraordinary people. Prior to 2004 I experienced very few instances of practices by insurers that I would have labeled negligent, illegal, or deceptive. In general, most insurers appeared to have an interest in settling claims quickly and fairly within the boundaries of their contracts. In order to achieve good will, I have seen insurers pay for losses(food replacement, etc.) that were not legitimatly covered under the policy. During this period, one of the most difficult aspects of my job was explaining coverage to the insureds. After grad school, I took a three week, 120-hour course on policy coverage, after which I felt as though I had obtained an acceptable level of understanding on how to interpret property coverage language. Yet, on many occasions thereafter, I made mistakes. It soon became evident that the vast majority of policy holders had an extremely limited knowledge of their coverages. Not surprising, given that they do not take three week courses. In 100% of the scenarios in which I have adjusted losses, the insureds were either surprised to learn that some portion of their property was not covered or limited to some degree below that which they understood to be limited. Prior to 2004 however, these situations did not typically result in tragic outcomes for the insureds. In each instance, I encouraged the insureds to contact their agents for clarification and recommendations for updating or upgrading their coverages.
Unfortunately, beginning with the four hurricanes in 2004, claims adjusting practices have changed dramatically. Suddenly, roofs, carpets, awnings, and a litany of other trades are no longer allowed to be considered for Overhead and Profit by many insurers. Taxes and O&P are no longer are part of the calculation for ACV. We \”negotiate\” different prices with individual insureds as if we were purchasing an automobile. My neighbor might have been paid $1400 per Square for the same roof that I was only allowed $900 from the same insurer. To my astonishment, I have come to know that most of the claims that I have adjusted were estimated with a price database that is 70-110% below actual market pricing. And worse, these people who I left \”knowing\” that I had worked diligently to find all the coverage available to them, were taking the proceeds of those claims and settling for those amounts. The majority had no inclination that they had alternatives or could file supplements or dispute in any manner, the amounts of the settlements.
Needless to say, after two years of struggling with the ever increasing restraints and borderline illegal practices to which I was forced to impose on these uninformed consumers, I resigned my position as an independent adjuster.
In December of 2005, I opened a public adjusting firm in South Florida. Now, we experience on a daily basis the abhorrent practices of insurance companies and those adjusters who represent them. Understand that it is my position that there are companies that handle their claims quickly, precisely, and professional in total compliance with the contract. However, those companies are in the vast minority. Last week, we filed a Civil Remedy on behalf of one of our clents siting 19 violations of statutes by one of the largest insurers in the state. My firm is representing over 300 clients currently and this is our current statistical compilation:
287 claims open in excess of 180 days.
143 in violation of at least five Florida statutes relating to adjusting practices.
These numbers represent staggering figures. On the average, we collect 293% more money from the insurance companies than was estimated originally and we achieve this by using the same adjusting practices that I have used for six years.
Mr. Poe, on behalf of those in this profession who take pride in said profession, I will apologize on behalf of these representatives of our industry, who with obvious disdain and disregard for the wide-spread consequences of their arrogance and flagrantly, biased disrespect for their insureds, contractors, attorneys or any others who oppose or even call into question their righteousness, honor, or the finality of their opinions. Their defensive, territorial chest-beating and sophomoric, belittling statements are a clear indication of exactly why consumers need protection. Whether or not your business practices are ethical is completely beyond my discernment; however, I appreciate your seemingly sincere interest and dedication to making a difference in our industry.
You are getting away from the additional numbers I provided. We can debate the various ways contractors apply O&P for days. You obviously prefer cumlative O&P, and as an independent contractor, you may charge however you wish.
However, 20% of $10,217.86 is the same, whether you pay part of it with the ACV payment and the rest with the RC payment, or pay it all on the front end.
My point is that a Replacement Cost policy does not owe the O&P on the Replacement Cost untill those costs are incurred by the insured.
As for the TDI… Their bulletins are for Texas. I do not deal with them and probably never will. It is obvious though, that you have many issues with the TDI (and TWIA), but I get lost in your extended diatribe. Try to keep it simple for us common folk.
Let me ask you this, Roger.
Are you concerned about whether the claim rep wrote an accurate estimate, or that you charge more than the claim rep will pay?
How much higher than the claim rep\’s estimate is your estimate?
Have you and the claim rep tried to reconsile the two estimates to be sure your comparing apples to apples?
Roger, you \”forgot\” to include the remaining details of the estimate summary…
I\’ll add them for you. (assuming this is a Replacement Cost Policy)
Summary For Hurricane
$10,103.19 Line Item Total
$114.67 6.000% Materials Sales Tax __________
$10,217.86 Replacement Cost Value
$ 2,607.44 Less Depreciation
__________
$ 7,610.42 Actual Cash Value
$ 761.04 Overhead @ 10%
$ 761.04 Profit @ 10%
__________
$ 9,132.50 Actual Cash Value Incl. O&P
$ 2,272.00 Less Deductible
__________
$ 6,860.50 Net Actual Cash Value Payment
If the policy does not have Replacement Cost coverage, then the insurance does not owe O&P on the depreciation.
You and I also know that the 10% profit is not the only profit in the estimate, as there are overhead and profit built into the unit prices.
If you want us in the insurance industry to believe you are totally above board, then state the whole true, not just what meets your needs. It is obvious to me that you are only concerned with misleading those who do not know as much as you think you do.
TO ALL INSUREDS:
If your contractor\’s estimate is higher than your insurance adjuster\’s, call your adjuster to discuss it. If the adjuster refuses to even review the contractor\’s estimate, then call the adjuster\’s manager. File a complaint if you need to.
Remember, when the work is done, it is the contractor who walks away with the money.
Interesting commentary. Attacking me though does not address real and unfair claim handling conduct.
Too, you seem to think my commentary is about myself some how.
Actually, it\’s clearly about insurers and adjusters that try to take advantage of indemnification value, and reconstruction assessing and reconstruction cost estimating naive, claimants.
You know, the kind of insurers and adjusters that pretend they can\’t grasp the fact that when a builder builds a house, they put a roofing system on using their financially planned for roofing contractor sub.
The roofing system has BOTH the builders\’ AND the roofing contractors\’ business cost built into it. Agreed?
(By the way, the same primary-general-builder / sub-trade contractors business cost value principles apply to all trade work components of a given structure, that make up it\’s whole).
If someone were to then insure the ACTUAL construction value of their roof only, what all TRUE replacement cost value would need to be covered / indemnified?
If you said, A builder valued roofing system, and all that that means, you would be correct…no?
Some construction business naive adjusters cannot grasp basic dollar investment math behind \”Cost Plus 10% estimation schedules.
Simply stated, hard and soft business costs (overhead) require real investment dollars to accomplish a given goal, that of making a pre-tax 10% return on the whole [overhead cost dollars] investment risk.
Yes Tony, anticipating a 10% profit on ALL parts of the \”Cost\” investment puzzle is fair and reasonable.
Do not get into the construction business, or claim to estimate reconstruction losses correctly, if you do not realize that business overhead is a constant project-to-project dollar investment.
Now you have no reason to not understand that business overhead dollars is part of the whole investment risk of the investing contractor, and a true 10% profit potential can be anticipated, on insurance related projects, or none insurance related projects, only when ALL \”Costs\” have a 10% margin applied to them.
Oh, and another thing Tony, I did include depreciation in the State Farm figures.
The point of the figures was to show how synthetic replacement cost math, that pretends that Contractor business overhead and profit is NOT part of Replacement Cost Values, upfront, would leave a claimant with a synthetic ACV sum.
You may want to review my past commentary from that perspective.
Too, I rarely have a problem with adjusters that can properly assess damaged property, understand sound reconstruction procedures and recognize rational reconstruction cost estimation methodology.
Any insurers / adjusters that intentionally try to do the opposite, and harm my clients, family, neighbors, or me, well…they get reported to the proper authorities.
P.S. For the past fourteen years, and especially the last four years, I and other contractors, and consumers, have met all kinds of unscrupulous and dishonorable insurers and adjusters.
Those insurers and adjusters that like to confuse the general public, and pretend they don\’t, no longer have the luxury of getting away with either illicit scheme.
You may want to pay close attention to the Enron case actors, and as you do, keep in mind that complacency can be a serious matter that draws other\’s attention…
1. The ACV amount should reflect primary-general contractor replacement costs…depreciated.
Why so?
Replacement costs, depreciated, will NOT have primary-general-specialty contractor business overhead and profit loss values MISSING, unless a insurer can figure out somehow (indemnification and premium value wise) to estimate the future replacement procedures and costs of a covered structure without [typical and historical] primary-general contactors\’ involvement.
(It would be a neat trick if a structure could \”poof\” into existence).
Sooooo, whether a ACV (actual cash value policy) OR a RCV (replacement cost value) policy, the proper measure for ACV math is–[Primary-General] Contractor RCV minus Depreciation = ACV.
2. State Farm admitted the overhead and profit was part of the loss value by necessarily disclosing it in the DEPRECIATED ACV math.
However, by NOT keeping RCV / ACV values proportionally whole, and in proper order, the ACV loss value \”budget\” is greatly reduced (twice) on the front end.
(Once by ommitting Contractor O&P as part of Replacement Costs, and again by the ACV 10% profit line not equaling 10% of the costs above it).
Check out how much more the insured would have to work with;
$10,103.19 Sub-Total
$ 114.67 Material Tax
_________________________
$10,217.86 Sub-sub total
$ 1,021.79 10% Overhead
_________________________
$11,239.65 Total
$ 1,123.97 10% Profit
_________________________
$12,363.62 Basic Business Math Grand Total
$10,217.86 State Farm Math Grand Total
$12,363.62 Basic Business Math Grand Total
$ 2,607.44 Minus Depreciation
__________________________
$ 9,756.18 Basic Business Math ACV
$ 2,272.00 Minus Deductible
__________________________
$ 7,484.18 Net Basic Business Math ACV
$ 6,860.50 Minus State Farm Net ACV Math
__________________________
$ 623.68 ACV Dollar Difference
Depreciating the ACTUAL Contractor replacement cost loss value sum, would have favored the insured by hundreds and hundred of dollars.
Now why would that approach be fair to insureds?
To factoring a true 10% profit margin would favor the insured. (If the profit line sum does not equal 10% of the total replacement cost above it, it reaaaalllly isn\’t 10% value, is it Mark)?
(A [cool] math trick IF you want ones to walk away, not notice, or attempt to work with synthetic ACV loss values, while (the insurer) keeps the balance in the bank.
Look at it this way Mark, a uninsured property has [ALL typical contractors involved] business costs built into its creation, or PLACEMENT.
In heirarchal contractor order, the primary-general contractor is first and foremost, with all other sub-contractors used by the investing contractor to PLACE a structure.
To to calculate the replacement cost of the said placed structure, an insurance agent could ask the primary-general contractor for ALL structural construction costs from A-Z. Or they could purchase and reference MS/B type construction component data to estimate the structure\’s replacement costs. Or use a square foot / zip code based software program.
However they figure replacement costs of a structure, unless a structure can poof into place, there is no skirting of accounting for ALL TYPICAL / HISTORICAL CONSTRUCTION REPLACEMENT (RCV) COST values in either ACV or RCV policies.
ACV policies are usually cheaper because the actual cash value of the aged loss components will be the future payment schedule for loss values, and not replacement cost value.
Claiming, during the estimating of claims, that ALL contractors overhead and profit costs, factored by the agent, and reflected in premiums, are suddenly and mysteriously NOT part of predetermined replacement costs creates systhetic RCV / ACV loss values prepaid for, should a loss occur.
Here\’s the summary Mark:
1. Insurance agent estimates replacement costs of structure that real world construction estimating requires.
2. Insurers can acknowledge those apples-for-apples indemnified replacement costs when settling claims, or not.
Pretending ALL Contractors business cost values are not part of every square inch of single or multiple trade work loss claim value smacks of an illegal financial shell game…no?
Collecting premium for which loss may never be paid is illegal windfall…no?
Knowing depreciated replacement cost (ACV) values contain ALL Contractors replacement cost value pieces, then not disclosing those values IN PROPER ORDER, when adjusters estimate loss claim values, is fiducial unfairness to insureds…no?
Although this does not really matter in true ACV loss math factoring, that should always reflect true depreciated RCV loss values, it is a replacement cost policy Mark.
Mark,
Thanks for answering this for me. I didn\’t get my notification that a reply was made.
Roger, any honest, hard working adjuster can see through you like a pane of glass. You KNOW Mark is right. Just because you don\’t get all your money up front, does NOT mean it will not be paid. MOST companies merely require a signed contract between the insured and a licensed GC to pay any depreciation or replacement cost benefits. You KNOW this, (IF you have been in business longer than 2 months) but you deliberately leave it out of your statement to attempt to incite support for your position.
When are you going to realize that your best option is to leave it alone. IF you find someone out there who is not doing their job properly (NOT just not the way you want it done, but improperly according to industry standards &/or company practice which if you are as experienced as you propound, you will know what each company does and doesn\’t do)
Any adjuster that is worth his salt that reads the tripe you are putting on this site can blow your claims out of the water. You know it, Mark knows it and I know it. Be honest and up front and maybe people will listen to what you have to say. Act as you have here and no wonder you have problems w/ adjusters.
To all others, Mark is right. IF there is a problem w/ your estimate vs. an insurance companies est, contact your adjuster or his/her mgr asap. There is a reason they are called estimates. Like I tell all my customers, \”I am pretty good at my job, but there was only one perfect person and I ain\’t him. I do make mistakes, but will listen if the insured or their contractor can/will point them out\”.
Roger,
We are back to your shell game. I LOVE how you use underwriting and insurance terminology to try to prove you knowledge.
What it breaks down to is you want 10% profit on your overhead. Wouldn\’t that make your profit in excess of the industry standard 10% of the cost of repairs?
Next, you want RC up front. Bubba, READ the policy. If it says RC up front, then that is what should be paid. Most (I haven\’t read all of them) state claims will be paid at ACV until repairs have been completed or \”the expense has been incurred\”. If you and I work on a claim and agree on $10K for RC and I pay it as:
Now if you and I have done this and agreed on it then it takes you six months to do the work and your costs go up to $11K that is your problem. You have a signed contract to do the work for X dollars. If YOU don\’t get it done in a reasonable time for the agreed on amount, why should the insurance companies compensate you for you running your company poorly. In short, your problem, not ours.
Having said all this, MOST companies will speak to you to determine why the costs have increased and if reasonable, will reimburse you for these costs.
You also want O&P on limited trades (one or two). O&P is due to licensed GC\’s when the expense is reasonable and necessary to effect repairs. If you have roofers on staff and you do the roof (and that is all or maybe minor paint etc) you haven\’t EARNED (difficult concept) the O&P. You KNOW there is built in profit in the base costs of an est. The O&P is for the scheduling issues, inspecting the site to insure work is progressing properly etc.
IF you have the men to do the work, and they do it, you haven\’t acted as a GC. You acted as a ROOFER! Thus, not entitled to O&P.
Last, let\’s try your creative math again.
First your example of the way it \”should\” be done:
$10,103.19 Sub-Total
$ 114.67 Material Tax
_________________________
$10,217.86 Sub-sub total
$ 1,021.79 10% Overhead
_________________________
$11,239.65 Total
$ 1,123.97 10% Profit
_________________________
$12,363.62 Basic Business Math Grand Total
Using the same numbers and depreciation (which isn\’t owed until the work is done per the policy).
The amount due is:
$10,217.86
+$ 1,021.79 Overhead
+$ 1,021.79 Profit
$12,261.44 Subtotal One
-$ 1,000.00 Depreciation
-$ 100.00 Depreciated Overhead
-$ 100.00 Depreciated Profit
$11,061.44 Subtotal Two
-$ 1,000.00 Deductible
$10,061.44 Total due Insured NOW
$ 1,200.00 Depreciated amount due Insured upon receipt of signed contract (depending on company) or work completion.
Total Insured MAY receive from Ins. Co.
$10,061.44 ACV
$ 1,200.00 RC (or Depreciation) Benefits
$11,261.44 Total due upon completion etc.
The ONLY difference now (without the creative math) is the $1000 deductible you didn\’t include in your numbers and the $102.18 difference between the OWED profit and the profit on the overhead.
Again, obfuscation is your modus operandi. It\’s amazing what someone who is used to dealing w/ people like you can find when they clear away your song and dance.
To quote a great, \”Go away little boy, you bother me\”.
Roger,
It was a small company that mainly handled small new construction or minor to moderate reconstruction. Usually our contracts were between $1000 to (the largest was) approx $30,000. We used a time/material cost basis. We would figure out the materials and the approx amount of time and give a price based off that. If we estimate a job would take 40 hours and it took 50 we didn\’t whine and complain, it was our mistake, we ate the difference. In the same vein if it took 30 hours, we weren\’t offering refunds either. Now having said that, if we ran up against something unexpected (rot for instance) we would notify the owner and discuss what needed to be done.
Like I said, a small company, but we were happy with it. You would be amazed how many people need help on the little things.
Roger,
I think you are missing the point on RC vs. ACV. The insurance companies don\’t owe you a penny. They owe the insured (depending on policy) ACV or RC up front. It makes absolutely no difference if you use the term \”synthetic replacement cost\”, \”synthetic ACV\” etc. The issue is what is owed up front. That is really quite simple, and depends solely and wholly on what the policy states will be paid (ACV vs. RC).
Do I think that 10% profit is too much, nope. Sure don\’t. I do have a problem w/ contractors griping about the amount paid when the ADDITIONAL 10% is for a GC for his efforts in scheduling, planning, ensuring proper and timely completion, etc. and the people griping they don\’t get it are acting solely as roofers. The afore mentioned 10% is for the GC, not a/the subs. The prices that most companies pay are adequate for the company to make a profit based on that alone. Now is there varying rates based on a cat situation, quite possibly. I suggest looking more at quantity of jobs as opposed to making a years worth of profit on one job. In short, while I can sympathize, it isn\’t my problem, it is the guy who is earning the 10%.
10% overhead costs is another amount paid. Whether I feel as if it is owed or not, is not my decision (which by the way, I do believe it is a fair and adequate amount), but the company I work for says pay it TO A GC, so it is owed. Simple as that.
You quote: \”Cost Plus 10% estimation schedules. The rub is that the prices insurance companies pay is not cost, but there is a built in profit for the subs. So your quote should be: \”Actual incurred cost, plus 10%\”. That would be much more accurate.
Your \”builder valued roofing system\” cracks me up. You are trying to compare apples to oranges and using poor terminology to do so. IF a GC hires a sub to roof a building in addition to other work (painting, drywall, electrical, flooring, etc) then the GC should be owed and paid O&P on all items including the roofing. IF a GC ACTS as a roofer and does no other work or a minimal amount (paint a ceiling, etc) O&P should NOT be owed or paid. O&P is not built in additional profit for a GC, just because he is a GC. It is for the work a GC does in supervising the reconstruction process, especially if the GC has no or minimal staff to actually do the work and has to use a myriad of subs.
Why do I think your commentary is about you? Good point. I\’ll give you that one. I think you are echoing the sentiments and trying to justify opinions of various contractors you know including yourself. I have dealt w/ contractors who purport opinions like yours and most of the time when they realize they aren\’t going to pull the wool over someones eyes, they back off. I will give you credit for persistence. The rub lies in that your arguments are specious (look it up)at best and have no basis other than what you perceive as the insurance companies bias against you/yours/etc.
You put out blanket statements about AllState, State Farm, Traveler\’s etc without crediting these companies for the quality employees that they have. An average of 1-2% of people will be difficult to work with in any given claims situation. This statistic has been around for years and has been verified by different companies. I wonder what percentage of people you have mislead or even just talked to, are difficult to work with. BTW, I am NOT talking about trying to cheat someone, or pay less than what is owed, etc. I simply mean common courtesy, decency and understanding that these adjusters are doing the VERY best they can and working with them instead of berating them, chastising them or trying to bully them.
Last, you are really tiresome. Your rants and diatribes do not take into account any points of view other than your own, with no room for any type of informational sharing. You think you are owed more than you got/get and want more. That is why I think your commmentary is about yourself and not the industry as a whole. I try to give honest forthright opinions/facts (when I have them) to explain the claim process (with my company anyway) so people who come here may gain some insight into the procedure. You want to argue over nickels when there are $100 bills laying on the table? Go for it, but don\’t be surprised when an adjuster who has heard BS like yours before, stands up and does what is right, even though it may not be expedient for him, the customer or you.
Like mama said, \”You can catch more flies w/ honey than with vinegar\”. Moral: Treat adjusters right (courteous, honest, fair and if there is a problem treat it like a mistake, which it probably was, not an attempt to defraud someone) and they will work with you. Don\’t and do not be surprised when you and your customer get an appt next month at the earliest.
In a manner of speaking. My brother and I used to several years back. It was not a large business, but we were quite comfortable. Then I got married and moved out of state, so take that as you will. He did the construction aspects and I handled the business end along w/ earning customers. That is one of the reasons I am rather passionate about this issue. I know that there is good money to be made with no one going hungry for those who do the right thing and just plain work hard.
1. Security cameras, throughout the city, that functioned through Katrina / Rita may have recorded the events.
2. Did any storm reporting news crews, residents, or storm chasers, stay and video record the event?
Did any one stay in a safe, high, place and record how the wind was affecting structures before, during, and after the tidal surge came?
3. Weather / military satellite records.
Remote sensing image devices, from space, may be very helpful on a case-by-case basis.
Was infrared, or structural / topographic monitoring type technology, or other technology, in place to record (from space) the wind cause and effect on structures, before, during, and after any tidal surge occured?
Can they even do that, down to a license plate on a car, during a storm?
Even empty concrete slabs and lots may have had their previous structures\’ storm generated deconstruction \”history\” witnessed and recorded, in space.
While your opinion is noted and quite appreciated, it would seem to me that you are the one who \”fell down\” on the job. You stated that you had a 3 week course that (to paraphrase) taught you the in\’s and out\’s of the policy. If it took you three weeks to learn this, then you should have been able to interpret the policy fairly clearly after this length of time.
Having said this, it would seem that there may be issues of \”good faith\” that can be raised with the company you were working for.
My question is, did the company you were being paid by (the independent adjusting firm) tell you to provide less coverage, or did the assigning company (the insurance company)? If it was the insurance company, why didn\’t you raise the topic at hand while you were working for them? It is rather easy to bad mouth someone when you will gain from it, rather then when they are signing your paycheck.
Seems kinda self-serving to me, but what do I know?
By the way, I am guessing that those who have posted on this thread will truly appreciate your apologizing for them to Mr. Poe. Especially now that you have no interest whatsoever on the fiduciary outcome of the claim (Di you mention, that you receive a portion of the claim amount from the insurance company? I believe 10% of what the insurance company pays to the Insured is due you under standard contract in Florida. Who is going to pay the additional 10% to get the work done?)?
Roger,
Of course what I and others have to say doesn\’t bother you………. You have your opinion (God Bless America that you have that right) and to Hades with those who have the temerity to side against you.
To echo NK\’s thoughts, why didn\’t Martha speak up when she was getting paid by the insurer? If fraudulent, deceptive or unfair claim practices were going on, then she should have notified the local authorities (what state, I am no sure as there is no mention) and done something about it then. Seems to me that Martha is rather self-serving in that NOW she has a problem with what is going on, but didn\’t mention it when her paycheck was being signed by the insurance company.
BTW, I am not condemning you Martha, just wondering why you didn\’t do the right thing (whistleblowing) when you had the opportunity. I know that if the company I worked for did something illegal, I would certainly mention it. My morals wouldn\’t let me do anything else.
Some wonderful thoughts. Maybe Charles can get the Department of Defense to place a spy satellite in a geo-stationary orbit during the next hurricane.
Charles,
The best thing I can say is that whenever I am on a claim, I look for coverage, not exclusions. If you can prove to me (so I could take it to my supervisor) that the damage was from wind and not flood, I will write you a check so fast your heart will stop. The big issue here is what is provable. I have said it before, that if one can show/prove damages (as required by the policy) then they should be paid for it. Having said that, the person I work for has quoted to me (and I live by the mantra) the benefit of the doubt goes to the insured.
I have seen what 150+mph winds can do to a house and they are nothing compared to what a 20ft. storm surge can do.
My suggestion to you would be to have the adjuster and/the supervisor show/tell you why they believe there is an excluded event that damaged your property.
I realize you have suffered a loss, and I am truly sorry that you did, but being realistic, if it was flood and you didn\’t have a flood policy to save th $1500 per year, that is a decision you made. And, like I am trying to get through my 16 year olds head, we all have to live with our decisions.
NKN,
While your thoughts are valid and due consideration, my main thought that you didn\’t address is: As any adjuster knows, a \”Bad Faith\” claim to the Insurance Commisioner is something to be avoided at nearly all costs. If ClaimHawks company was abusing the customers, why did ClaimHawk not stand up for them? I realize that it is difficult to \”cut one\’s own throat\”, but if there was truly abuse or fraud going on, why did ClaimHawk wait until she was a Public Adjuster to make this information known. Like the man says, \”What\’s right is right, no matter who says/does it\”.
Posted On: May 7, 2006, 5:53 pm CDT
Posted By: Martha Kirwin
Comment:Federal Judge in Mississippi \’Storm Surge\’ Case Upholds Home Insurance Flood Exclusion
Gentlemen,
I have been an adjuster for six years. Having grown up with a homebuilder and insurance agent for parents, it was a natural choice after grad school.
Until December \’05, I worked for a large catastrophe adjusting firm. My husband and I worked together while traveling the country, earning a fabulous income, and meeting extraordinary people.
Prior to 2004 I experienced very few instances of practices by insurers that I would have labeled negligent, illegal, or deceptive.
In general, most insurers appeared to have an interest in settling claims quickly and fairly within the boundaries of their contracts. In order to achieve good will, I have seen insurers pay for losses(food replacement, etc.) that were not legitimatly covered under the policy.
During this period, one of the most difficult aspects of my job was explaining coverage to the insureds.
After grad school, I took a three week, 120-hour course on policy coverage, after which I felt as though I had obtained an acceptable level of understanding on how to interpret property coverage language.
Yet, on many occasions thereafter, I made mistakes. It soon became evident that the vast majority of policy holders had an extremely limited knowledge of their coverages.
Not surprising, given that they do not take three week courses.
In 100% of the scenarios in which I have adjusted losses, the insureds were either surprised to learn that some portion of their property was not covered or limited to some degree below that which they understood to be limited.
Prior to 2004 however, these situations did not typically result in tragic outcomes for the insureds. In each instance, I encouraged the insureds to contact their agents for clarification and recommendations for updating or upgrading their coverages.
Unfortunately, beginning with the four hurricanes in 2004, claims adjusting practices have changed dramatically. Suddenly, roofs, carpets, awnings, and a litany of other trades are no longer allowed to be considered for Overhead and Profit by many insurers.
Taxes and O&P are no longer are part of the calculation for ACV. We \”negotiate\” different prices with individual insureds as if we were purchasing an automobile.
My neighbor might have been paid $1400 per Square for the same roof that I was only allowed $900 from the same insurer.
To my astonishment, I have come to know that most of the claims that I have adjusted were estimated with a price database that is 70-110% below actual market pricing.
And worse, these people who I left \”knowing\” that I had worked diligently to find all the coverage available to them, were taking the proceeds of those claims and settling for those amounts.
The majority had no inclination that they had alternatives or could file supplements or dispute in any manner, the amounts of the settlements.
Needless to say, after two years of struggling with the ever increasing restraints and borderline illegal practices to which I was forced to impose on these uninformed consumers, I resigned my position as an independent adjuster.
In December of 2005, I opened a public adjusting firm in South Florida. Now, we experience on a daily basis the abhorrent practices of insurance companies and those adjusters who represent them.
Understand that it is my position that there are companies that handle their claims quickly, precisely, and professional in total compliance with the contract.
However, those companies are in the vast minority.
Last week, we filed a Civil Remedy on behalf of one of our clents siting 19 violations of statutes by one of the largest insurers in the state. My firm is representing over 300 clients currently and this is our current statistical compilation:
287 claims open in excess of 180 days.
143 in violation of at least five Florida statutes relating to adjusting practices.
These numbers represent staggering figures. On the average, we collect 293% more money from the insurance companies than was estimated originally and we achieve this by using the same adjusting practices that I have used for six years.
Mr. Poe, on behalf of those in this profession who take pride in said profession, I will apologize on behalf of these representatives of our industry, who with obvious disdain and disregard for the wide-spread consequences of their arrogance and flagrantly, biased disrespect for their insureds, contractors, attorneys or any others who oppose or even call into question their righteousness, honor, or the finality of their opinions.
Their defensive, territorial chest-beating and sophomoric, belittling statements are a clear indication of exactly why consumers need protection. Whether or not your business practices are ethical is completely beyond my discernment; however, I appreciate your seemingly sincere interest and dedication to making a difference in our industry.
\”Unfortunately, beginning with the four hurricanes in 2004, claims adjusting practices have changed dramatically. Suddenly, roofs, carpets, awnings, and a litany of other trades are no longer allowed to be considered for Overhead and Profit by many insurers.
Taxes and O&P are no longer are part of the calculation for ACV. We \”negotiate\” different prices with individual insureds as if we were purchasing an automobile.\”
and,
\”Mr. Poe, on behalf of those in this profession who take pride in said profession, I will apologize on behalf of these representatives of our industry, who with obvious disdain and disregard for the wide-spread consequences of their arrogance and flagrantly, biased disrespect for their insureds, contractors, attorneys or any others who oppose or even call into question their righteousness, honor, or the finality of their opinions.
Their defensive, territorial chest-beating and sophomoric, belittling statements are a clear indication of exactly why consumers need protection.\”
__________
Thank you Martha for your frank commentary. What Tony and others like him have to say does not bother me.
What bothers me is that naive consumers and others, even in regualtory, and other governmental authority positions, would believe their half truths and misinformation, if left up to them alone to explain their conduct.
It seems that Texas is the testing ground for such unfair conduct, and then the rest of the nation receives the polished results. The claim handling conduct you described has been going on here hot and heavy since 2002.
From my client records, Allstate, State Farm, Farmers, Safeco, USAA and the Texas Wind Storm Association have treated their insureds, and contractors, quite interestingly since 2002.
I truly believe the DOJ and FBI are going to investigate such matters, as they have become too large, and too obvious, to go on unaddressed.
By the way Martha, \”From Good Hands To Boxing Gloves\” is being published shortly.
Allstate tried to keep it from being published. Hmmmmm….Their explanation, to a judge, was not \”convincing\”.
You might \”Google\” search the book title, and too, please feel free to contact me.
Subject: Market Conduct Check List For Allstate-Travelers-State Farm
Posted On: May 18, 2006, 3:42 pm CDT
Posted By: Roger Poe
Comment:
5-18-2006
Synthetic Claim Settlement Check List
1. Are labor dollars needed for all materials installed missing from roofing, dry-wall, etc. trade labor costs?
Allstate believes that a 3000 SF shingled roof that needs 3300 SF of materials AND 3300 labor costs for the completed project, should only show 3000 SF labor costs in their \”fair trade\” estimates.
By the way Allstate, the extra labor line that the MS/B IntegriClaim program data has for clean-up work is VERY different cost wise from the unit labor costs that should apply to the 300 SF production costs.
Job site clean-up work costs throughout a projects\’ duration is QUITE different from ACTUAL trade production installation work unit costs.
2. Cross reference actual regional material and labor costs, especially in early estimate paperwork put out to claimants.
MS/B\’s storm damaged property reconstruction costs surge databases verses \”new\” construction costs data, and Craftsman Publishing\’s \’2006 National Renovation & Insurance Repair Estimator\’ should give pretty close [post-catastrophe] reconstruction costs in a given region.
If [Allstate] used new construction costs as an estimation base, then MS/B data costs for different regions in Louisiana should be easily proven by referencing a copy of MS/B\’s software version used by the general construction public, not necessarily the version that Allstate had designed for their own use.
Since both Allstate and MS/B realize actual (before hurricanes Katrina / Rita) new construction price data for Louisiana, any synthetically LOW, or missing, MS/B construction COMPONENT costs for REconstruction labor, materials, sales tax, and primary-general-subtrade contractors overhead and profit, etc. values will show up throughout their estimates.
Be aware though that, from the start of forming a construction estimate, \”NEW\” construction labor, materials and overhead unit costs are going to be QUITE LOWER than historical REconstruction unit work costs, especially after a storm).
Reconstruction costs can easily be 30-50%+ higher than new construction costs, plus post storm materials, labor and business overhead cost market increases add even higher costs to reconstruction costs.
3. See if ALL Contractor Overhead and profit line items are missing from estimates. Replacement Costs depreciated = Actual Cash Value, and still have those collective loss value costs woven in.
4. If not line itemed seperately, have them prove that roofing, fencing, carpeting, etc. specialty trade contractors business overhead and profit costs are in the unit costs of each specialty trade.
Allstate has been using a basic 29% contractor\’s overhead and profit margin line item that some adjusters are touting as being THE primary-general Contractors business overhead and profit line item.
Actually, an additional 10%and10% (20%)overhead and profit factor is recognized by Allstate, if one\’s would, perchance, know to ask about those [basic] primary-general contractor mark-up factors.
5. See if Allstate claims that primary-general contractors are only \”necessary\” if there is structural damage included in the loss.
6. See if either company expects that premiums paid them for replacement procedures and costs of a structure anticipate the general public to act as their own contractor, OR does MS/B type data, used in part for actuarially estimating future replacement costs of a structure, at an insurance agents desk, historically accounts for primary-general contractor involvement first and foremost, with their own staff and sub-contractors support.
6. See if Allstate claims that 2-3 or more specialty trades work is required before a primary-general contractor is \”necessary\”.
7. See how many field adjusters were required during the life of a claim.
(Was Pilot Claim Service involved?)
8. Audit claim estimates from the nicer neighborhoods verses claims from the less well off neighborhoods. See if just roofing damage was accounted for, and if said damage was only damage if roofing material was missing.
9. Interview a mix of claimants to see how they were treated in person, or by mail / e-mail, or over the phone.
Did the adjuster dismiss or play down legitimate exterior and interior (wind / wind driven rain) damage?
10. Interview Allstate / Pilot Claim Service, Saint Paul Travelers and State Farm adjusters, and contrast their claim handling views with other [independent adjusters] views.
11. Publish specific examination results based in part on the above check-list so as to benefit the general public.
12. Resist anyones notion that such [publically known] construction data, and/or insurers market conduct is a \”trade secret\” somehow.
Claim Hawk, I have been wondering how many decent adjusters have said,\” No more falseness, dishonesty to close to me — I\’ll be sullied sooner or later! –I quit!\” Also , how does the individual claiment \”fight\” the multi-billion dollar insurer that insists that Katrina did not cause ANY loss as there was flooding at, by or on your property..??? After inquiring abaout my small claim, $10,000 was told on the phone that \”If it got wet you not getting a \”dime\” [or penny, perhaps!]. I do not see how after over 20 years and no problems, I can do any more business with State Farm….and neighbors and friends tell me of similar experiences. After discust with no action, I , for one, badgered the \”AUTHORITIES\” [read…Insurance Commissiioner and Attorney, seem only to be able to travel about 300 miles, meet State Farm employees? in madiation or arbitration??? Even then how can I or State Farm PROOVE there was WINDSTORM damage [called Katrina] PRIOR to any water [read flood]damage. When I examined the scene of the missing or destroyed building and contents it seemed OBVIOUS there was EVIDENCE of extreme wind destruction….I do not think the claims folks had ever been to a Cat site, let alone the subject property—-but I have little in the way of proof other than photos of the area that was totally devistated–literally nothing of a building and ZERO contents. Please anyone, give us some ideas or tips on how to handle this travesty. Thanks, Charles
Mrs. Kirwin\’s comments were republished, in smaller bites, for clarity sake.
Your comments about her observations are noticeably selective.
Your comments about Mr. Poe\’s observations are also quite selective.
Considering their commentary, with objective precision, and then contrasting their observations with other\’s comments in return, makes for some interesting and thought provoking reading.
My comment\’s are attempts to help others, and expose suspect and blatantly unfair and irrational claim handling conduct that has, and is, affecting many, many consumers.
Belittle and find fault with that however you need to.
No matter what other\’s say, or do,
truth has a way of surfacing on it\’s own.
I had some tenant improvements done on a retail location. The landlord required $2Million in Insurance limits and my GC only carried $1M. I agreed to pay for the additional premium he would be charged to increase his limits.
I have two problems:
1. The GC\’s insurance agent sold him (me) an excess policy for his entire company instead of a project policy to cover just my project and the premium was three times what it should have been. On top of that, the policy runs for the remainder of his GL policy period, long after my project was completed and was called \”noncancellable.\”
2. The GC charged me overhead and profit on top of the premium! I thought you had to have an insurance license to make money on an insurance premium.
Help! Do I have any recourse? Spitzer would have a field day with this, I\’m sure, but I\’m just a little guy and the amount in question is roughly $1,000.
What blew the roof off of the Superdome in New Orleans and What blew high rise windows out of hotels and casinos from
Louisiana to Mississippi?
FACT: Katrina Winds hit land 1-4 hours
before water rised.
FACT: Katrina Winds 100-200 MPH
THIS IS AMERICA…
THEY CAN\’T DO THIS IN AMERICA
QUESTION: Why do we have a seperate Hurricane Deductible in our policy?
That is often 15% of the policy limit
and coverage for damage above the
WATER LINE!!
Wake Up America! Demand Justice because they will do this again.
Because they can.
Wake up pull your head out of you ### and lower your Hurricane deductible and pay for flood insurance like everybody else has too! I\’ve heard enough crying the blues over this to last a lifetime!
Hey Buddy,
Your time will come. I guarantee it.
When you try to get a claim paid from Your Homeowners Insurance, It will be you crying, not singing the blues…
It\’s you that needs to wake up.
My Eyes are wide open & I can see what is going on in Corporate America.
Can you say Enron?
I had Flood Ins & Homeowners too!
Perhaps you should keep your *** in your head…
Don\’t need you & don\’t want your opinion.
Go Away!
InsuranceJournalArchive
Subject: Risk and Loss (Underpayments) = Fat Contingent Profits?:
Posted On: April 2, 2006, 12:22 pm CDT
Posted By: Roger Poe
Comment:
4-2-2006
Before the flood coverage victory dance gets underway by certain insurers, some other claim loss coverage value issues need careful consideration–
Can insurers create illegal profits by collecting (actuarially factored) premium dollars you and I are (knowingly) owed by insurers, and then use adjusters to deliberately and deceptively misadjust claim loss values?
Are actuaries ignorant of deceptive claim settlement practices that can give them synthetic construction loss value data?
Does Allstate Insurance Company, and their associate, Pilot Claim Service, take the lead in the insurance industry in requiring their adjusters to \’knowingly underpay every claim\’?
Is State Farm Insurance, Safeco, USAA, Farmers and other insurers following the Allstate / Pilot lead in Texas, Florida, Maryland, Mississippi, and elsewhere?
From [catadjuster.org] a mature Allstate Insurance Company claims examiner replies to an aspiring contractor turned insurance adjuster;
__________
\”Brooks Todd Posted – 12/18/2003 : 19:10:52
——————————————
I just recieved my adjusters liscence, from The Great State of Texas. I have 22 years in construction (framing, roofing, sales & concrete). I am an excellent estimator, and can build anything from a dawg house to a church.
I am having a hard time finding a job in the adjusting field. I know what my angle is now. Imagine having an adjusters liscence, and being a contractor. I am calling Allstate tommorow. You have to change with the times.
Brooks
khromas Posted – 12/18/2003 : 23:06:22
——————————————
Brooks,
I would not advise calling Allstate if you wish to keep your integrity intact.
After almost 7 years with them and having held a variety of positions, including the sole Quality Evaluator for the entire southern half of Texas, I finally became fed up with their approach to requiring every adjuster to KNOWINGLY UNDERPAY every claim and left them this past July.
The head of Allstate in Texas – Gary Briggs – had the nerve to stand up in front of an agent\’s meeting last spring and say (QUOTE) \”I love the new HOA+ policy! It doesn\’t cover anything and WE STILL GET TO KEEP THEIR MONEY!\”
I used to tell people whose claim I was handling that \”the good hands of Allstate were right here\” as I held my hands out for them. I could no longer do that in good faith and look myself in the mirror so I left.
One of these days the Texas DOI is going to catch up with their property handling practices and then it will all hit the fan!
Good luck with anyone else!
Kevin Hromas Country: USA | Posts: 75
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:LH8RbB9s00UJ:www.catadjuster.org/forum/m_899/mpage_10/key_/tm.htm+gary+briggs+allstate+intentionally+underpay+&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
__________
Can insurers (2003, 2004, 2005,2006) contingent windfall profits be generated illegally by such fraudulent claim settlement conduct?
Quote from an insurance regulatory agency;
\”–Indemnity is the basis and foundation of insurance coverage.
The objective is that the insured should neither reap economic gain nor incur a loss if adequately insured.
This objective REQUIRES that the insured receive a payment EQUAL TO that of the covered loss so that the insured will be restored to the same position after the loss as before the loss.
The calculation of this payment results in UNDER-compensation if an insurer deducts prospective contractors\’ overhead and profit and sales tax in determining the actual cash value under a replacement cost policy.
Conversely, THE INCLUSION of contractor´s overhead and profit and sales tax on building materials DOES NOT OVER-COMPENSATE AN INSURED for the amount of the loss BECAUSE these items represent PART OF the insured´s loss.
Generally, the objectives of indemnity will be met if actual cash value is calculated as replacement cost with proper deduction for depreciation.
–there is NO SITUATION in which the deduction from replacement cost of depreciation and contractor´s overhead and profit and/or sales tax on materials will be the correct measure of the insured´s loss.
–Premiums charged must NOT be excessive for the risks to which they apply.
Under a replacement cost policy, the liability limits of the policy and the premium paid by the insured are DETERMINED ON THE BASIS OF the replacement cost of the structure.
The VALUE of contractor´s overhead and profit, as well as sales tax on building materials, has been INCLUDED IN the limit of liability for which the insured has PAID premium.
If the insurer in determining actual cash value EXCLUDES costs that are INCLUDED IN the determination of liability limits, on which the insured´s premium is BASED, the insurer reaps an IllEGAL WINDFALL because the insurer receives premium on insurable values for which loss may never be paid.\”
http://www.tdi.state.tx.us/bulletins/b-0045-8.html
__________
Actuaries base loss risk data, in part, on claim adjusters loss payment conduct, per management instructions.
Are actuaries being misled by synthetic construction loss claim value adjusting practices?
Is addressing fraudulent claim settlement practices too large of a public issue for insurance regulatory agencies, or the judicial system, to handle?
Would the reinsurance market confidence level be undermined by such unfair claim loss settlement conduct?
How does individual claim settlement replacement cost values / risk loss reserve dollars, verses claim dollars ACTUALLY paid, compare?
Does intentionally underpaying claims equal grand theft of consumer premium payment dollars?
__________
Clear replacement cost coverage values owed is not always volunteered to unsuspecting premium paying consumers, who may only be aware of how much money they received, and not how the money they received was determined.
Kind of like a toy store owner keeping change owed to math naive kids.
The kids are happy with their toys, and yet are clueless as to how they have been financially deceived, so that another can gain.
Can claim loss values, pre-paid for by consumers, be invisibly and deceptively kept from them if insurers / adjusters do not openly disclose loss values that are inherently part of the loss?
The 29% contractor\’s overhead and profit line that is commonly displayed on Allstate replacement cost value construction estimates, only reflects SUBCONTRACTOR overhead and profit loss values and NOT the additional (premium calculated) 20% (minimal)Primary-General Contractor overhead and profit loss value.*
Whether a contractor is used, or not, those replacement loss values are part of the WHOLE value of replacement value policy covered losses…
49% is a lot of premium replacement cost dollar value being paid for.
Claim loss naive adults being shorted 20% / $200.00 per $1,000.00 coverage is serious business. 49% miswsing equals $490.00 per $1,000.00.
I\’ve experienced Allstate, Safeoc, USAA, State Farm, Farmers and the TWIA (Texas Windstorm Insurance Association) adjusters doing this over and over again between Florida and Texas, between 2002-2006, with my clients, and neighbors.
*Allstate / Pilot Claim Service construction speak has been noted in recent hurricane catastrophe zones.
They claim;
1. \’A general contractor is not \”needed\” to replace a roof.\’
2. \’A general contractor is not required because there is not any structural damage\’.
3. \’There is no structural damage, but the amount of work does not require a general contractor\’.
4. \’The homeowner can be the contractor for a single or multiple (roofing, fencing, carpeting) trade \”loss\” repair\’.
5. \’We can get thsi \”done\” for our price\’.
Actually, the construction replacement costs of a structure, established at an insurance agents desk, and underwritten, calculates / anticipates / pre-pays for prospective primary – general contractor involvement to replace the structure by using various speciality trade subcontractors.
Single speciality trade (roof) losses contain primary – general contractor value AND roofing contractor value.
The roof is simply a single part of ALL of the speciality trade construction components that make up a whole structure that are put into place by a primary – general contractor.
Insurance premiums account for primary – general contractor involvement, first and foremost, and their business overhead and profit costs which are applied to all subcontractor trades work, which work includes their own overhead and profit costs.
Unless a structure can \”poof\” into existence on it\’s own, agent calculated
premium values necessarily contain primary – general contractor labor, materials, sales tax, business overhead and profit cost factor value.
Claim loss values should disclose those construction replacement cost values, whether a contractor is used or not.
All said,, claims CAN be knowingly and intentionally underpaid, and deceptively anticipated profits can exist, as long as the general public allows that conduct to go on unaddressed.
Interestingly, the general public is awakening and standing up to such unfair / fraudulent conduct by certain insurers and adjusters conduct.
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
A contractor… I knew it! Gets in the middle and stirs things up, and when it\’s all over he walks away with the check!
Damn, and I said I was through with him…
You\’re overcomplicating the issue.
Not too mention making a lot of serious accusations that don\’t seem to make a lot of sense. Who needs to hire a general contractor for a simple roofing job?
This is a victory for contract law.
Rodger sounds like a public adjuster that got caught charging 30% for a claim.
Hey Roger why don\’t you at least try and keep your postings on topic to the story. This story has nothing to do with Allstate underpaying claims. And you\’re really just annoying by posting that stuff on every single hurricane thread. Go fight your cruisade someplace else.
Roger needs a sedative.
Whether we all realize it or not, this ruling affects all homeowners policies across the entire U.S. Finally a Judge that doesn\’t bend to political pressures!! Had this ruling gone the other way, we personal lines agencies could have been facing dire times.
insray:
Not just the agencies, but companies as well. There is a real underwriting reason flood isn\’t covered on homeowners or other property policies. It\’s why the federal plan was started in 1969.
Yeah, nobody thinks of the insurance industry as the \”good guys\” but this is great news. Imagine the precedent this would have set if the judge had thrown out previously approved, clear language excluding flood!
Whether you live in Mississippi, Louisiana or any other state, this was a win! Now comes the E&O suit against the agent for not selling them flood coverage.
I am glad to see the judicial system properly interpret a contract based on the facts before them and not the emotions of this tragedy.
As for Roger Poe, no matter what he does for a living, I\’m sure it involves the blending of facts, imagination and emotion to extract the most money from the deepest pockets. Maybe Insurance Journal can do a story on him so we can dedicate a discussion soley to his honor.
As for me, I\’m through with him…
Don\’t pick on Roger. Some day when he\’s through stocking groceries his boss will tell him to go out sweep the parking lot. His natural response will be \”but that isn\’t in my job description\”.
Then he\’ll remember and understand what a discription of work is all about.
What I want to know is did they pay for the part the wind did damage? I\’m still in the LA & MS area working claims & the companies I\’m working for are doing their best to pay for anything damaged by wind before the flood water hit.
You should send your comment to Scruggy. He seems to think insurance companies are habitually changing engineering reports to avoid paying for wind damage. Your comment completely flies in his face. Wouldn\’t mind being a fly for that one!
According to the South Florida Sun-Sentinel, Roger is n the business: \”Some adjusters may be missing damage, said Roger Poe, an insurance reconstruction specialist for Lake Contracting, a Central Florida company doing work on a number of storm-damaged homes.
He said homeowners should ask what kind of pricing sheet adjusters are using, and about their estimating background.\”
\”I see a lot of damage being overlooked by thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, consistently,\” Poe said.\”
I was close, a contractor who was shot down trying to upgrade an insureds home for more than what they had. Hey Rodger, answer this, why do you change all your cost when a storm hits? I am an adjuster, been there done that, people get greedy. SO DO THE CONTRACTORS
4-15-2006
It\’s interesting to note that the replacement cost value / replacement cost value underpayment estimation schemes are not mentioned by ex-contractor, or certain claim \”adjusting\” types, here.
Is it me, or did no one mention, what-so-ever, about deceptive business trade practices by certain insurers that can steal money from their client?
Now why could that be?
Could be that not giving real, or full, names, indicates public domain facts, (facts that certain ones are guilty of helping to exist), makes them want to hide behind insulting and mocking conduct.
Most vermin scurry away when the spotlight comes on, unless ill.
As long as illicit / fake / synthetic construction replacment cost estimations keep fooling the general public, and all that that means, in the premium calculation-to-claim loss ratio / contingent profit loop, via certain insurers and claim \”adjusting\” types, others will keep exposing it.
Confess, or continue to make a great living…that must be a real issue for some…
Insurers don\’t want money taken from them that they don\’t owe…but are all just as dedicated to repay what they do owe?
Hardly…
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
Yes, I work for an insurance company as a claims adjuster. The comments I present here are my own and not those of the company I work for. Not giving my full name ensures that no connection is made between my views and the company.
Now for a few definitions:
\”Replacement cost value underpayment estimation schemes\” – paying local market prices for repairs, including catastrophe induced market condition increases, as opposed to the artifitialy inflated prices charged by most storm chasing contractors.
\”Vermin\” – (1) an excluded cause of loss; (2) contractor
\”Premium calculation-to-claim loss ratio / contingent profit loop\” – More contractor mumbo jumbo.
\”Roger Poe\” – Contractor extrordinair; Internet forum lizard; blessed with the gift of gab;
I have a question on flood insurance.
A man called me today about flood insurance. The new flood map (in a city in north Texas) shows his house is in a 100 year flood zone. He\’s lived in this house for 45 years. The reason for the flood dynamic is new construction upstream and down stream of his house. Rates of drainage have changed.
I quoted flood full replacement cost and contents coverage for his home. He understands the reasons for the changes.
Coverage he wants is actual cash value on the house to meet his finance (re-finance) requirement and no contents coverage. How do I get him to do the coverage he really needs?
SHOULD I :
1. Beat him into submission with a stick?
2. Tell his loan company to call in the loan?
3. Call a federal marshall?
4. Have him sign an acknowledgement that his choice of coverage won\’t buy him a new front door?
5. Tell him he\’s foolish and not let him buy coverage from me?
As an insured of StateFarm, and a Katrina claiment, I wonder which of you \’POSTING\’ can be unemotional if you lose everything and 2 friends – 1 during the \”stormM and 1 later trying to save some of what was left. I had NOTHING left. Now the fault of my carrier is that it seems obvious that the claim folks should be faulted strongly for coming to conclusions based on little knowledge, experience or integrity… and that they [adjusters up to and including management and a \”contracted\” \”consultant\” or 2 not doing a complete examination of the facts—for instance, disregarding ALL wind damage!!!! 1- the 1st adjuster was a Texan who had never adjusted such cat claims, and did not call or write back after promising to call as soon as on the site of the total destroyed home[s], but someone eventually called a few months after the loss to tell me there is no claim because we \”belive if \’IT \’ got wet, it is ALL FLOOD. As a former insurance person, about 40 years in agency, company administration , training [many claims people, too] and with the Risk Manager designation am not only emotional but ashamed of not only what I have personally experienced but the many horrifying tales my neighbors have told me re State Farm and most of the cos. you poster have mentioned–of delays, of ridulously inadequate settlement offers. When the only agency in town represents only one company…..but you all afe likely familiar with that old non-captive saying. I am past my CSO table time of expiration but am gonnakeeponkeepinon kicking at poor,inadequte and disreputable claims handling–as I have done for several decades…all successful to date. None of you have said anything about being in a situation of total devistation that you are unable to imagine–it MUST be seen in person. I have been in many hurricanes–Katrina was a beastly cruel destroyer–I\’ve been an agent, salesman, marketing rep etc. and an insured–and licensed all lines in about a dozen states–nothing can prepare you for going through a few blocks of ANY south Miss. towns and cities. Any thing you folks can manage in improving the entire claims operations of insurance companies, I implore you do it. It is soirely needed–regardless of the companies backing off further and further from being what we pay them to be!!
Good that Gary Briggs has retired from Allstate. They\’ve moved the guy that was president of Allstate New Jersey to Texas.
State Farm doesn\’t pay claims anymore, they let the courts adjust for them today.
Resorting to ad hominem is a sure sign the IQ level of the conversation is dropping sharply.
Keep on topic, define your debate hotpoints and try to be professional.
There is no conspiracy to defraud insureds on the part of highly scrutinized and regulated insurance companies.
Quite the opposite, it\’s these same companies that are regulary defrauded by thier customers and the contractors.
I can hardly blame them for trying to protect themselves from unscrupulous claim filers.
Mr. Poe, you have alienated yourself from serious discourse on this any other topic by calling industry professionals (some of whom may very well be adjusting for work you are doing) \”vermin\”. And you cannot slam online discreteness when you yourself failed to disclose your clearly biased position in the issue.
Well done, and oh so professional.
4-17-2006
Hal & Mark H,
Please understand that catastrophes often drastically change the availability, AND COSTS of common materials / equipment, available qualified labor, food / housing costs, building codes / qualified inspector-inspection processes, project funding flow, project holding costs, office / field overhead, insurances, etc.
Throw in time (equals money) spent reasoning with certain construction loss value \”adjusting\” personality types that believe and preach that real world reconstruction market costs are artifically (unfairly) inflated.
Premium rates go up as risk go up.
So do local construction investment risk costs.
Before the idea gets locked into your mind for years to come, by certain catastrophe claim managers propaganda, (that all contractors \’rip insurers / consumers off\’ in post cat-markets), try running a reconstruction business in one.
Then come back and comment.
Until then, try to at least remember the above as you highlight and copy line items into your reconstruction \”estimate\”.
By the way, the worst so – called \”adjuster\”, and \”contractor\”, is one who thinks that they are the final word on actual fair market costs…when in all actuality, chaotic market conditions, and ALL that that means, is the \”fair and reasonable\” final word.
Producing a post-cat, or daily, reconstruction estimate that accounts for ALL damage, SAFE & SOUND reconstruction procedures, and business sustainable pricing, is something that can look artificial, to one\’s who are inexperienced, and/or arrogant.
\”Adjust\” your post-cat attitude accordingly…
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
Oh brother.
Now we get into insurance-to-value issues. The very hardest thing to do is \”over-insure\” a house so additional costs are covered. The companies go nuts on it and the prospective buyers accuse the agent of trying to rip them off by over-selling them.
Poe – Start a company do it \”right\” and if you can remain solvent for 5 years and get a decent financial rating you\’ll get a large percentage of market share.
In other words, put some money where your *****in\’ is.
4-17-2006
Jay,
You stated;
\”Mr. Poe, you have alienated yourself from serious discourse on this any other topic by calling industry professionals (some of whom may very well be adjusting for work you are doing) \”vermin\”. And you cannot slam online discreteness when you yourself failed to disclose your clearly biased position in the issue.\”
__________
For clarity sake–
Vermin – \’an irritating or obnoxious person\’ (Google: define vermin).
Scandalous (post 2005 hail storm / post hurricane Rita) issues I, and others, personally witness consumers and neighbors going through with Allstate Insurance, (Pilot Claim Service), State Farm Insurance, USAA, Farmers, the TWIA and etc. insurers, is real.
In-the-trenches field claim loss estimation data proves what policy holders are going through.
Seasoned \”Industry\” insiders also know what has been, and still is, going on with trusting consumers.
Consider the following Allstate Insurance (industry insider) testimony found online, at a catatastrophe adjusters web-site;
__________
Brooks Todd Posted – 12/18/2003 : 19:10:52
——————————————
I just recieved my adjusters liscence, from The Great State of Texas. I have 22 years in construction (framing, roofing, sales & concrete). I am an excellent estimator, and can build anything from a dawg house to a church.
I am having a hard time finding a job in the adjusting field. I know what my angle is now. Imagine having an adjusters liscence, and being a contractor. I am calling Allstate tommorow. You have to change with the times.
Brooks
khromas Posted – 12/18/2003 : 23:06:22
—————————————–
Brooks,
I would not advise calling Allstate if you wish to keep your integrity intact.
After almost 7 years with them and having held a variety of positions, including the sole Quality Evaluator for the entire southern half of Texas, I finally became fed up with their approach to requiring every adjuster to KNOWINGLY underpay every claim and left them this past July.
The head of Allstate in Texas – Gary Briggs – had the nerve to stand up in front of an agent\’s meeting last spring and say (QUOTE) \”I love the new HOA+ policy! It doesn\’t cover anything and WE STILL GET TO KEEP THEIR MONEY!\”
I used to tell people whose claim I was handling that \”the good hands of Allstate were right here\” as I held my hands out for them. I could no longer do that in good faith and look myself in the mirror so I left.
One of these days the Texas DOI is going to catch up with their property handling practices and then it will all hit the fan!
Good luck with anyone else!
Kevin Hromas Country: USA | Posts: 75
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:LH8RbB9s00UJ:www.catadjuster.org/forum/m_899/mpage_10/key_/tm.htm++gary+briggs+allstate+intentionally+underpay+claim&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2
__________
You\’re right Jay.
Vermin may not have been an appropriate term.
\”Predatory vermin\” is more appropriate.
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
P.S. As I\’ve stated many times before, honorable insureres and adjusters exist.
Too, my \”position\” is not biased.
Unfair and deceptive insurers claim settlement protocols are though…
I always try to sell my clients Flood Insurance.
I always try and insure to value.
It\’s amazing how tight homeowners are BEFORE an event.
Finally, I hope your personal life improves, Roger and I hope I or my insureds never have to deal with you.
My neighbor has Allstate Homeowners Insurance and he was recently notified that Allstate Homeowners is pulling out of Florida. He was provided with a referral to another company. This other company of course has alot higher rates.
4-17-2006
Southern Agent,
If your claimant clients are going through what Allstate, State Farm, Safeco, USAA and the TWIA are doing to their clients in Texas, you may want to have some credible contractors at your side to help those same clients.
Those contractors, using the same construction estimating programs, and construction data, that insurers use, can easily prove if insurers and their adjusting associates are honorable, or not.
Trying to discredit ones who are aware of deceptive carrier conduct, won\’t hold up under public scrutiny.
Knowledgeable and honest public scrutiny that is…
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
Gloria, this is NOT the first time Allstate is leaving a state….they pulled out of FLA decades ago…I lived there about 40 or so years ago–I think they even left a beautiful office in St Petersburg—for a while. Many companies pulled out of Corpus Christi, Texas after a hurricane– for a while. What a subject for Business School distertations ! I was in Corpus Christi to get business as so many \”BIG\” companies were non-renewing. One of the \”BIG\” companies started \”picking the cream\” and until the next \”pull out\” will have made piles of profit!!! What the captives will do if their loses are too high?? Put their agents out of business? What has occured in the past? They will almost ALLWAYS RE-underwrite–another of my pet peeves, inadequate underwriting. But I am an old grump—seen an excess of foolish underwriting. Just \”bah-humbug\”!
Allstate isn\’t leaving Florida. They\’re trimming their market share. Most of the non-renewals are monoline home policies, and Allstate agents have plenty of other companies they can write through. Allstate rates in Florida are good, so the choice was either increase rates for everyone, or get rid of a lot of people who only have their home insured. Anyway, Corpus is a sitting duck, but a lot of the property is underwritten by the TWIA, so no worries for private insurance companies.
Thank you both for posting your opinions,too. I feel like at least 2 people have my back, and I have yours!
Please keep it up. Thanks, too, to the person who told the insider portion of the truth. God bless you, honey!
So what if we tick off these glorified snake oil sellers?
As for the judge who made this ruling, is he by any chance related to our wonderful MDOT & Insurance Commissioners? Idiocy seems to run amuck in that bunch! And I am betting neither he nor any of his family was affected by this storm is a big way!
BTW pre-storm cost to replace our roof: $6,300 (remember, we had an appraisal in 7/05 AND replacement value insurance in effect). Post storm estimate $8,500. Bad hands paid-$3,700 and said if you don\’t like it, get some estimates. Got 5, submitted all even though I know I didn\’t need to, was told be happy with what you got!
Well, what I got is a blue FEMA tarp still shining brightly in the moonlight and a pile of shingles in the yard ready for a roofer willing to make 50 cents putting the new roof on.
Keep those comments coming.
HURRICANES PRODUCE WIND AND WATER DAMAGE.
THE HOMEOWNERS INS SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR WATER DAMAGE BUT THEY ARE TRYING TO GET OUT OF PAYING FOR WIND DAMAGE.
ADD YOUR ANNUAL PREMIUM.
ADD YOUR POLICY DEDUCTIBLE.
ADD YOUR ADDITIONAL HURRICANE DEDUCTIBLE
(15% OF THE VALUE OF YOUR POLICY)
ADD THE FACT THAT THE INS. WILL ONLY PAY ABOVE THE WATER LINE.
IF YOU ARE LUCKY THEY WILL PAY FOR A NEW ROOF MINUS ALL OF YOUR DEDUCTIBLES AND MINUS DEPRECIATION.
THE HOMEOWNER STILL LOOSES AND THE INSURANCE COMPANIES STILL GO TO THE BANK.
FLOOD IS FLOOD BUT THE INSURANCE COMPANIES MUST PAY FOR WIND DAMAGES.
IF NOT, ALLOW FEMA TO SELL HURRICANE INSURANCE INCLUDING BOTH FLOOD/WIND DAMAGE.
THIS WOULD RESOLVE WIND VS WATER FOREVER.
P.S. WHEN I SEE/HEAR ALLSTATE OR STATE FARM COMMERCIALS, I GET SICK TO MY STOMACH. HOW DARE THEY PRETEND TO BE GOOD NEIGHBORS. WE TRUSTED THEM AND WE PAID THEM MUCH MORE THAN FLOOD INSURANCE COST TO FINANCIALLY PROTECT OUR HOMES. THEY REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE WIND DAMAGE.
AMERICA MUST STAND UP AND BECOME UNITED OR WE\’RE GOING TO BE THE SLAVES IN OUR OWN COUNTIES. EVERYONE KEEPS MAKING THE RULES FOR US AND CHANGING THEM TOO. WE ARE THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF THIS COUNTRY. THE LAW ABIDING CITIZENS, THE HOMEOWNERS AND YET WE HAVE NO RIGHTS.
YOU ARE EITHER HONEST OR DISHONEST AND YOU HAVE A CHOICE.
Oh good grief. Who woke that up?
Sue the school district. You have to be able to read to read your insurance policy.
To all of you who \”feel\” the rule of contract law should always bend in the favor of those in need…
GET OVER IT!!!
Contracts are based on the facts contained within and not on how either party \”feels\” when performance of the contract provisions is executed.
The mortgage on your home is a contract between you and the lender. The bank gave you money to purchase your home under a contract that you would pay them back on a schedule. Have any of you ever paid additional interest (not principle) to your lender just because you felt like it? No. Your contract states what you owe, and you stick to the schedule. That\’s what reputable insurance companies strive to do.
Now why do you \”FEEL\” that the insurance companies should pay more than they owe on your contract. FLOOD damage isn\’t covered and if you didn\’t pay for it you don\’t get paid on it.
And another thing, nobody PAID for a Hurricane Deductible Endorsement; you got a premium discount for having the Hurricane Deductible Endorsement! There is no coverage provided by Hurricane Deductible Endorsement, it simply means that for damage COVERED by the policy, which occurs from and during a declared hurricane, you pay a higher portion of you loss. This feature helps keep insurance available and affordable.
If the Mississippi A.G. gets his way, insurance in Mississippi will not be affordable, and possibly not available from the private sector. Of course this bodes well for the socialists among us.
4-19-2006
Hal,
You stated;
\”I quoted flood full replacement cost and contents coverage for his home. He understands the reasons for the changes.
Coverage he wants is actual cash value on the house to meet his finance (re-finance) requirement and no contents coverage.
How do I get him to do the coverage he really needs?
SHOULD I :
1. Beat him into submission with a stick?
2. Tell his loan company to call in the loan?
3. Call a federal marshall?
4. Have him sign an acknowledgement that his choice of coverage won\’t buy him a new front door?
5. Tell him he\’s foolish and not let him buy coverage from me?\”
__________
The question / issue:
\’How do I get him to do the coverage he really needs?\’
Answer: Maybe his personal finances are such that what you think he need\’s, and what he may know he needs, are at odds with each other.
For your other questions:
1. Beat him into submission with a stick?
No. Even if you are properly insured.
2. Tell his loan company to call in the loan?
No. You might be giving them wrong info.
3. Call a federal marshall?
No. They don\’t provide that kind of service. Yet.
4. Have him sign an acknowledgement that his choice of coverage won\’t buy him a new front door?
No. No, wait…maybe yes.
5. Tell him he\’s foolish and not let him buy coverage from me?\”
No, and Yes.
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
Ed,
Didn\’t you cast for playing a character in the Wizard of Oz–
The one that needed a heart…
Bullying a person for composition errors, instead of addressing the message that is weighing on them and others…how cheap.
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
4-19-2006
Mark,
You stated:
\”Contracts are based on the facts contained within and not on how either party \”feels\” when performance of the contract provisions is executed.\”
Huh?
Aren\’t facts of a contract based on feelings of something fair happening?
If one feels others are suspect of cheating them, then proves it contracturally, couldn\’t it be said that contracts are based on intelligent / rational \”feelings\” and expectations?
Contracts-of-adhesion–have a weighted \”feel\”, come commitment time, leaning in the favor of the person who did not write the contract, but who also agreed to it.
Aren\’t contract term facts, stated or implied, actually based on how all involved feel about said contract context?
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
Roger,
I can somewhat agree that the details included in standard contracts are based on what each party \”feels\” should be included. But once a contract is agreed upon and signed, the provisions are the facts that direct the performance of each party. This can not be changed later unless agreed upon by both parties. As a \”CONTRACTor\”, you should understand that basic principle.
Let\’s say you and I sign a contract stating you will construct a sunroom on the rear of my house for $10,000.00. The contract contains all of the specs for construction and materials to be used, and that I will pay you in full upon satisfactory completion of the job.
Now, as you near completion of my sunroom, I \”FEEL\” that you should also install a ten person hot tub. My neighbor has a hot tub in his sunroom and it just wouldn\’t be FAIR for me not to have one.
No, I\’m not going to pay you anything more, I just \”FEEL\” that a sunroom should have a hot tub.
How do you \”FEEL\” about installing the hot tub for free?
I bet your construction contracts contain clauses pertaining to change orders.
The insurance policy says we pay for wind, not flood (and storm surge is flood). If there is evidence of wind damage, we pay for the wind damage. If the flood washed away the entire house, then there is no evidence of wind damage; no coverage for flood damage. No covered loss.
Some like to say the wind came in before the flood, and blew the house down, then the flood washed it all away. No coverage for the flood damage, and there\’s no evidence of the wind damage. Again, no coverage. That\’s why the policy includes a concurrent causation language.
OK , Smart Guy, how, if the building and contents is STILL THERE, BUT the 3rd story and 2 nd stories are not spread and just a bit jumbled. Large and very tall [ 100 foot high ?] trees are BROKEN at anywhere from the lower third, around the middle and anywhere else of the length of the trees in the neighborhood, AND \”point\” in every direction!!!!! it is scattered on the ground, bulldozers pushed some of the structure off the road and yet most of the support posts remain. Could this have been some tornadiac activity?? There have been tornados during past hurricanes and \”tropical storms\”. What do you say experts…do you say like those companies, State Farm, Allstate etc. How does 1 washing machine of 3 near its original position, the others in different directions etc.?? 40 to 100 feet away? All having been enclosed in a FEMA approved laundry room? Oh , I have lived in and through about 10 hurricanes from the 1930\’s….how about you and the totally inexperinced claims people from Iowa,Ill., Arizona, etc. who\’ve never seen an area hit by the eye of a hurricane—this one the second in almost exactly the same path as Camille. Maybe the annual bonuses caused a problem in trying to know the truth…when there does not appear to be imperical PROOF there was NO wind damage, just that there was some flooding in the area…ergo,[and I quote the St. Farm claim person. \”If it got wet,we won\’t give you a penny.\”
Charles, it sounds like your adjuster wasn\’t too on the ball. I do work for a major insurance company, live in Louisiana and have worked the last three years worth of hurricanes. If you have a water line in your home (which everyone does, it is just a matter of looking for it) then anything below that line is not going to be covered. Every adjuster I know works his/her tail off to make people happy. We do our best to be fair, equitable and honest with our customers. Let me tell you something, we have a great deal of empathy for those people who are un/underinsured. The problem lies, in that it is NOT our responsibility to make you whole after a loss if you didn\’t pay for the coverage you needed. I can\’t tell you how many $400,000 homes I saw w/ $100,000 worth of coverage and no contents coverage. Do I feel bad for them? Yep, you bet I do. Is there a dang thing I can do about it? Nope! People think we have a choice in the matter and we don\’t. It is pretty well spelled out in your policy (as the judge above ruled) what is covered and what isn\’t. Just because YOU choose poor coverage or coverage w/ a fly by night company (not necessarily you, but in general), that does not make it our problem. We aren\’t sitting there with you when you decide on a 10% hurricane deductible instead of paying extra premium for a $500.00 hurricane deductible. Even if we had been, be a big boy and live w/ your decision. People have no idea how hard we work to try and help people. All everyone wants to do is whine and blame their own poor decisions on the insurance company or FEMA. You right, you may be a victim……….of YOUR OWN decisions.
You wrote a thoughtful note, and I DO understand that Flood is NOT covered in typical property coverages any more. But it is in the FEMA NFIP policies. My concern is the errors, mistakes and poor attitude of entirely too many claims people–and the incorrect and improper decisions and pronouncements so many make without taking the time to research, check, and EVEN READ THE POLICIES before they attempt to foster on the \”INSURED\” to the insured\’s detriment. Now, I just read [on the net] that the Miss. Ins. Commisioner has required that the companies must accept \”eye witness accounts\” and other \”evidence\” claiments bring to the table in arbitration and must \”clearly demonstrate the cause of the loss.\” \”when the issue is whether the loss was caused by wind or water. THAT IS WHAT HAS BEEN FESTERING IN MY GUT, TONY. [I really think that the \”adjuster\” never even walked on the property as it was just a pile of debris—but did not even attempt to look at the neighborhood. No one asked me about the losses at my condo, or any of my neighbors to my knowledge. Did they know ANY of the loss history of the immediate area? I was one of the earliest there 23 years — saw the tornado damages, a bunch of tropical storms and hurricanes, stayed at home for almost all of them…..the ?claims inspector? called to ask directions,she promised to call soon as possible and would send me photos. Never heard from her again. Tony, I am not perfect, but I instructed the IIA courses to many claims people and had to explain coverage to correct even Claims Vice Presidents-Attorneys in court, explain to experienced claims people that a car that rolled into a pond is covered under Comprehensive Coverage, not Collision which usually has a higher deductible, that there is both an amount and percentage involved is certain \”crime coverage\”. I\’ve been retired for over 20 years, and worked all lines in many capacities [ARM, too] and I can also make a mistake. But I highly resent any person having \’control\’ over $$$$ that wrongly adjust, appraise, incorectly determine the amounts and improperly and uncaringly say things for any reason, \”If it got wet, its flood and you won\’t get a dime [ or penny]. I also have no respect for their \”professionalism\” or their superiors that allow such activities. It isn\’t always a matter of ignorance or education, it is also attitudes, an open vs closed minds. I received a photocopy of an engineers report saying there was flooding.[Which I\’ve heard was perhaps not necessarily exactly totally accurate]So I took a look for myself. My , my, evidently [a word Like evidence] I saw things that was not visible before. So can one deny windstorm damage when there was some water damage??? It ain\’t over until its over…and I may be old but my will will continue the fight at least to my first line of heirs…that was a really great place to live!!! See, I said I\’m not perfect, too wordy…came from reading too many insurance contracts and endorsements, arguing with underwriters to write sensibly and claims folks to settle quickly, correctly and sometimes creatively. Sometimes I really miss being in the industry–but it makes me a little sad to have to see what a horror it seems to have become. Dam!
Charles,
I know a little what you refer to. I have been involved in insurance for nearly 10 years. I have seen VERY good adjusters who work their tails off get little or no credit (or kindness/consideration) from emmployers or customers. The point that I was trying to make is that every C/R I have worked with tried their very best to provide the very best service to their customers. It really gripes my A$$ when I get on here and find everyone griping about those who worked their tails off, VOLUNTEERED to be away from their family, spent months in a place where you were sleeping two to a bed and were happy to have a bed or (as I did) go so friggin sick that when they went to a hospital, once the nurses took a pulse/ox sat, they immediately (and I do mean immediately) rushed that person to intensive care and drug a doctor in to see them (I am not the only one this happened to). People like Roger kill me. All they want to do is gripe, complain and screw the crap out of any person/insurance company they can. People like you who have seen both sides of the business need to provide a little more even treatment of those who do their best. Are their imcompetent boobs out there????? You bet! I worked for a casualty TM out of Nevada who didn\’t know her head from her a$$ when it comes to a property claim and she was reviewing my files??????? The major problem w/ this past season was that there was just plain too many claims. Independant companies were hiring anyone with a pulse to fill positions to provide Reps to the insurance companies. BUT, if they hadn\’t people would have called (they did anyway) griping about the lack of service. I spent several months in South Louisiana (I live in La.) and several months in Florida. I would rather spend a year in Florida than 1 month in South La. The people in Fl. were much more understanding, pleasant, accomodating and considerate. The difference was beyond words. I have heard mixed reviews from friends in south Miss.
One thing that I think everyone needs to remember is that it is the INSURED\’s responsibility to PROVE damage. I am sorry, but if you have a 4\’ water mark in your home and the surrounding area has 4\’ water marks from flood and you want me to cover the carpet under wind, it ain\’t happening. That being said, I know of one person (me) who had a house that had 7 LARGE pine trees on it. I did what a decent claim rep would do. Everything below the water mark was flood. Everything that was damaged (from holes in the roof, ceilings etc. was covered under wind. Sorry folks, but if it was below the water mark, FLOOD. If it was above it and not specifically excluded, Wind. If no wind damage (roof still there and no trees on house, all windows are there, etc and you want me to cover mold 7\’ up the wall….. best thing I can tell folks is to read the policy.
I guess I am not perfect either. I am also wordy. I like nearly every claim rep I know, just do the best we can. It really amazes me how many people want to whine and complain and blame someone else when they were to lazy, unintelligent or just plain stupid to read their policy.
I have two sayings, I use all the time in my work, that I think people need to remember for future reference….. (1)There was only one perfect person, and I AIN\’T him (but I do try my best). (2) You get what you pay for. If you choose a crap insurance company to save $20 bucks a year (See the good hands folks) don\’t gripe when you get lousy service.
Wrong genius. Again, you and most others here generalize. Number one, you get what you pay for. Number two, READ your policy. It is YOUR responsibility to PROVE YOUR LOSS. Unfortunately, most claim reps I know are NOT psychic. We can\’t \”see\” what happened two weeks before we got there. Number three, you think it would be better if the insurance companies left????? Chuckles, you need to talk to some of the folks that live on the east side of Highway 95 in Ft. Lauderdale, Miami etc. They have to have a Citizen\’s policy (written by the state, not some \”cheap\” insurance company) to cover ANY wind loss. THEN it has to be a declared storm. Then they get the joy of paying (approximately) TWICE as much for a policy that ONLY covers wind damage under set circumstances as they do for their homeowners policy.
Call an agent in Fl. Ask him for a rat quote. It will blow your mind. Imagine your insurance premiums doubling for the same coverage (BTW, you think the insurance companies are strict???? They THROW $ at customers compared to the State).
I know there are a lot of people upset about their loss or the way they were treated. I have a lot of empathy and sympathy for them. UNTIL they show their ignorance about the insurance policy that they NEVER read. You have NO idea the number of people who got mad at me because their flood policy provides NO additional living benefits if their home becomes uninhabitable. READ YOUR POLICY FOLKS. If you don\’t like it, pay more for more/better coverage.
Then let them leave the USA.
What are we loosing?
They don\’t pay anyway.
We can keep our Annual Premiums.
We can afford to rebuild above the water line and still save money.
They don\’t need to pay for flood damage.
They Must Pay for Wind Damages.
They want to blame all damage on flood.
That is my beef with the Industry.
4-28-2005
Tony,
You stated;
_____
\”People like Roger kill me. All they want to do is gripe, complain and screw the crap out of any person/insurance company they can.\”
_____
What rotten and presumptuous bridge of logic did you use to make such a statement?
My commentary, based on verifiable / hardcopy evidence of past and ongoing claim settlement conduct, by certain insurance companies, Allstate included,
is real.
Their damaged property underassessment, people handling, and claim underpayment schemes are fine-tuned, polished, and transparent, to the trained eye, and mind.
They know perfectly well what they are doing to their trusting clients.
They know that convincing advertising and collecting premiums, and collectively deceptive cooperation within, and outside, their organizational ranks to NOT pay out claims in an appropriate manner, case-by-case, commonly equals higher (illegal) contingent profits.
When I see something underhanded happening to my clients, relatives and neighbors, I, like others, stand up for them.
When I see them being preyed on by people who pretend to love them, but are just trying to deceive them, I stand up for them.
How you concluded that exposing clever, hard-to-detect and fraudulent carrier / adjuster conduct means that I somehow \”screw the crap out of any person/insurance company they can\”, is typical doublespeak from someone who seems to know better.
As for your comment about people needing to read and \’understand\’ their policies…many attorneys are stumped by them.
Did you totally understand every promised word, and it\’s common meaning, stated or implied, in the contract you signed for for owning your car, before you signed?
Do you think about that contract often enough to make sure you fully understand your rights, based on current judicial decisions, and how in the future your polished understanding may not match some deceptively clever attorney\’s
\”understanding\”, and protect yourself, knowledge-wise, accordingly?
Many people can THINK / BELIEVE they are paying for something, because of THE MANNER in which the seller explained the benefit of their product or service to the investor.
Honorable insurers, agents and adjusters exist.
Sadly though, certain high profile insurance companies business actions, based on fear and greed, can make people suffer, unnessesarily.
Those (nationwide) actions are not going on unnoticed, and will not go on unaddressed by the proper authorities.
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
Roger,
I have never worked for Allstate (and never will), so I can\’t speak to their policies, whether written, verbal, actual, factual or implied.
Having said that, allow me to issue you a challenge….. Find one attorney who handles contract law who will admit to being, and I quote, \”stumped\” by an insurance policy and next time I am in Florida, I will by you a soda of your choice.
Every lawyer in the world that practices contact law thinks they can interpret an insurance policy. Does that mean that reasonable minds can not disagree? Nope, sure doesn\’t, but in the same vein when a contact you sign states specific causes of loss are excluded, you will always find a lawyer who will try to \”make a name for himself\” by taking on the insurance companies (and taking 33% or better of any settlement) and hoping to win.
As for another issue that you point out about buying a car. IF I didn\’t understand a provision in a contact, it would be explained &/or delineated further in writing BEFORE I signed the contract. Have you ever heard the expression Caveat Emptor???
The reason I feel the way I do (believe it or not, this is America and I am allowed to form an opinion about someone based on whatever criteria I choose) about you is the thread of posts you have authored. You seem (granted, I have not met nor dealt with you personally) to voice every view point that my years of experience have taught me is inimicable in someone who wants little more than to make as much $ as quickly as possible and yet you pose as the advocate of the poor beknighted consumer. BUT, when it comes time to talking to the consumer away from the adjuster all the sudden there are a myriad of ways that the job can be done to save the consumer their deductible, and/or get the insurance company to pay for upgrades, etc. I don\’t need to delineate, you are obviously intelligent enough to know what I am referring to.
As for my opinion of you and what type of contractor you are……. I can sum it up in a couple of statements. Allow me one caveat to state, that I care little about the quality of your work. First, I came on this thread and freely announced my profession and why I took the position I have. You hid your profession, attempting to let others make \”erroneous preferably\” judgements about your occupation so that it would appear you were unbiased. To continue, that type of action to me indicates someone that I would consider untrustworthy. To conclude, I wouldn\’t pay you to build a doghouse in my backyard.
As I have stated, there ARE bad adjusters or at the very least very inexperienced ones out there. My main gripe is that people want to come here and accuse a judge of improper conduct or accuse all insurance companies of improper conduct in handling claims, when in reality all it is, is a gripe session. They didn\’t get what they wanted (because of an exclusion in the policy (that THEY should take responsibility for as they signed a contract for it, bought it and paid for it) so all of the sudden everyone in the world is against them. GROW UP. What happens in your life is YOUR responsibility to handle, not the Federal governments, not the State or Local governments, not Roger Poe\’s, not your Momma\’s (unless you are underage of course in which case you don\’t have the right to enter into a contract legally)! IF you sign something you don\’t understand, don\’t expect the rest of the world to come to your aid. Stand on your own two feet and be an adult. If you don\’t understand it, DON\’T sign it until you do. Anyone who let\’s a fast talking salesman push them into something they don\’t understand deserves NO pity. The rest of us do, as these morons have the right to vote.
As for my \”doublespeak\”…….. I am SOOO very tired of people like you who want to use the word love when dealing in business. I would \”Love\” to be able to have enough time w/ each of my customers to know whether I want to love them or not, much less develop such a strong emotion towards them. Until I am cloned, empathy and sympathy for their loss is the best I can do. Who are you trying to kid? \”People who pretend to love them\”…. Come on. Adjusters are so busy, we barely have time to talk to those we have married, sired or already have a relationship with to get our customers to \”love\” us or for us to \”love\” them.
\”Clever, hard-to-detect and fradulent carrier/adjuster conduct\”. How about this. I pay for what is covered. What the insured (as required by the contract) can PROVE to me is a covered loss. If they can\’t and I can\’t in all honesty and (here it finally comes) in good faith, find a way to cover it, then it isn\’t covered. I realize I am a bit different then some adjusters, but I live by the motto, \”I look for coverage, not exclusions (or exclusionary language)\”. I truly do as does every adjuster that I have ever met that works for the same company I do. Lumping everyone together and lambasting us, does little else than to prove my original opinion of you was correct.
Lastly, you cast a VERY wide net w/ your accusations against \”high profile insurance companies\”. I would strongly suggest to you, not to name names, unless you have something called PROOF. I am just guessing, but I bet you couldn\’t handle (nor would you be successful in defending) a libel suit.
BTW, your (implied) threat about the, \”nationwide (didn\’t know you were a licensed GC in all 50 states or is it just the contiguous 48) actions are not going unnoticed, and will not go on…….etc\”. I have very little doubt (yeah, right) that you have the ability to make the authorities address the issue. My guess is that you HOPE something will happen along the same lines as I HOPE Florida, Louisiana and Mississippi will enforce their (better watch out) gouging laws.
Might I suggest you get some provable facts before you rant and rave about/against those that have \”been there and done that\”. Just a thought.
Ciao Baby.
4-29-2006
Tony,
Interesting commentary.
You seem to feel the best defense is a good (convoluted) offense.
Let me state once more…honorable insurers and adjusters exist.
Let me state it again…honorable insurers and adjusters exist.
One more time…honorable insurers and adjusters exist.
Too, my commentary is provided for the general public as a heads-up for helping them figure out their damaged structure losses, and making sure predatory insurers are receiving the public recognition they deserve.
By-the-way Tony, I\’m hardly alone in my documental evidence against Allstate / Pilot Claim Service, State Farm, Farmers, Safeco, USAA and the TWIA.
Their very clients hold proof of their underpayment schemes.
You stated about me;
\”Lastly, you cast a VERY wide net w/ your accusations against \”high profile insurance companies\”. I would strongly suggest to you, not to name names, unless you have something called PROOF. I am just guessing, but I bet you couldn\’t handle (nor would you be successful in defending) a libel suit.
BTW, your (implied) threat about the, \”nationwide (didn\’t know you were a licensed GC in all 50 states or is it just the contiguous 48) actions are not going unnoticed, and will not go on…….etc\”. I have very little doubt (yeah, right) that you have the ability to make the authorities address the issue. My guess is that you HOPE something will happen along the same lines as I HOPE Florida, Louisiana and Mississippi will enforce their (better watch out) gouging laws.
Might I suggest you get some provable facts before you rant and rave about/against those that have \”been there and done that\”. Just a thought.
Ciao Baby.\”
__________
Did you pick up on the General Contractor status by the continued presence of my e-mail address?
I\’m hardly hiding my identity now, am I Tony?
Licensed GC in all 50 states?
No Tony, I\’m licensed where I do business, and I communicate with others across the nation, and help track carrier / adjuster market conduct.
Oh, and as for PROOF of underpayment schemes…not to worry, there is HARD proof a plenty.
Quick for-instance, I just received a State Farm estimate from a client yesterday.
Now check out this summary page, and see if you can help the public understand it is NOT a synthetic construction
\”estimate\”;
Summary For Hurricane
$10,103.19 Line Item Total
$114.67 6.000% Materials Sales Tax __________
$10,217.86 Replacement Cost Value
$ 2,607.44 Less Depreciation
__________
$ 7,610.42 Actual Cash Value
$ 761.04 Overhead @ 10%
$ 761.04 Profit @ 10%
__________
$ 9,132.50 Actual Cash Value Incl. O&P
$ 2,272.00 Less Deductible
__________
$ 6,860.50 Net Actual Cash Value Payment
Two (hard-to-detect) synthetic / false construction estimation methodology points…
1. Notice that Contractor overhead and profit was NOT applied to the ACTUAL projected loss reconstruction value sum, ($10,217.86), but to the DEPRECIATED $7,610.42 sum. Hmmmm…
2. Notice that the estimated business profit value is THE SAME as the business overhead factor.
Since a anticipated (10% profit margin) can only be accomplished by measuring it against the WHOLE investment risk of a project (hard costs and overhead), a SYNTHETIC / FALSE profit amount exists.
Again, Hmmmm…
Soooo, See how TRUE Contractor O&P is missing…twice!?
Do that to untold tens-of-thousands of so-called construction \”estimates\” and…well…you know what that is called…
Care to see some more underpayment schemes?
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
P.S. Discovery / Claim Audits…Two powerful tools for truth seekers…
Gentlemen,
I have been an adjuster for six years. Having grown up with a homebuilder and insurance agent for parents, it was a natural choice after grad school. Until December \’05, I worked for a large catastrophe adjusting firm. My husband and I worked together while traveling the country, earning a fabulous income, and meeting extraordinary people. Prior to 2004 I experienced very few instances of practices by insurers that I would have labeled negligent, illegal, or deceptive. In general, most insurers appeared to have an interest in settling claims quickly and fairly within the boundaries of their contracts. In order to achieve good will, I have seen insurers pay for losses(food replacement, etc.) that were not legitimatly covered under the policy. During this period, one of the most difficult aspects of my job was explaining coverage to the insureds. After grad school, I took a three week, 120-hour course on policy coverage, after which I felt as though I had obtained an acceptable level of understanding on how to interpret property coverage language. Yet, on many occasions thereafter, I made mistakes. It soon became evident that the vast majority of policy holders had an extremely limited knowledge of their coverages. Not surprising, given that they do not take three week courses. In 100% of the scenarios in which I have adjusted losses, the insureds were either surprised to learn that some portion of their property was not covered or limited to some degree below that which they understood to be limited. Prior to 2004 however, these situations did not typically result in tragic outcomes for the insureds. In each instance, I encouraged the insureds to contact their agents for clarification and recommendations for updating or upgrading their coverages.
Unfortunately, beginning with the four hurricanes in 2004, claims adjusting practices have changed dramatically. Suddenly, roofs, carpets, awnings, and a litany of other trades are no longer allowed to be considered for Overhead and Profit by many insurers. Taxes and O&P are no longer are part of the calculation for ACV. We \”negotiate\” different prices with individual insureds as if we were purchasing an automobile. My neighbor might have been paid $1400 per Square for the same roof that I was only allowed $900 from the same insurer. To my astonishment, I have come to know that most of the claims that I have adjusted were estimated with a price database that is 70-110% below actual market pricing. And worse, these people who I left \”knowing\” that I had worked diligently to find all the coverage available to them, were taking the proceeds of those claims and settling for those amounts. The majority had no inclination that they had alternatives or could file supplements or dispute in any manner, the amounts of the settlements.
Needless to say, after two years of struggling with the ever increasing restraints and borderline illegal practices to which I was forced to impose on these uninformed consumers, I resigned my position as an independent adjuster.
In December of 2005, I opened a public adjusting firm in South Florida. Now, we experience on a daily basis the abhorrent practices of insurance companies and those adjusters who represent them. Understand that it is my position that there are companies that handle their claims quickly, precisely, and professional in total compliance with the contract. However, those companies are in the vast minority. Last week, we filed a Civil Remedy on behalf of one of our clents siting 19 violations of statutes by one of the largest insurers in the state. My firm is representing over 300 clients currently and this is our current statistical compilation:
287 claims open in excess of 180 days.
143 in violation of at least five Florida statutes relating to adjusting practices.
These numbers represent staggering figures. On the average, we collect 293% more money from the insurance companies than was estimated originally and we achieve this by using the same adjusting practices that I have used for six years.
Mr. Poe, on behalf of those in this profession who take pride in said profession, I will apologize on behalf of these representatives of our industry, who with obvious disdain and disregard for the wide-spread consequences of their arrogance and flagrantly, biased disrespect for their insureds, contractors, attorneys or any others who oppose or even call into question their righteousness, honor, or the finality of their opinions. Their defensive, territorial chest-beating and sophomoric, belittling statements are a clear indication of exactly why consumers need protection. Whether or not your business practices are ethical is completely beyond my discernment; however, I appreciate your seemingly sincere interest and dedication to making a difference in our industry.
Roger,
You are getting away from the additional numbers I provided. We can debate the various ways contractors apply O&P for days. You obviously prefer cumlative O&P, and as an independent contractor, you may charge however you wish.
However, 20% of $10,217.86 is the same, whether you pay part of it with the ACV payment and the rest with the RC payment, or pay it all on the front end.
My point is that a Replacement Cost policy does not owe the O&P on the Replacement Cost untill those costs are incurred by the insured.
As for the TDI… Their bulletins are for Texas. I do not deal with them and probably never will. It is obvious though, that you have many issues with the TDI (and TWIA), but I get lost in your extended diatribe. Try to keep it simple for us common folk.
Let me ask you this, Roger.
Are you concerned about whether the claim rep wrote an accurate estimate, or that you charge more than the claim rep will pay?
How much higher than the claim rep\’s estimate is your estimate?
Have you and the claim rep tried to reconsile the two estimates to be sure your comparing apples to apples?
Roger, you \”forgot\” to include the remaining details of the estimate summary…
I\’ll add them for you. (assuming this is a Replacement Cost Policy)
Summary For Hurricane
$10,103.19 Line Item Total
$114.67 6.000% Materials Sales Tax __________
$10,217.86 Replacement Cost Value
$ 2,607.44 Less Depreciation
__________
$ 7,610.42 Actual Cash Value
$ 761.04 Overhead @ 10%
$ 761.04 Profit @ 10%
__________
$ 9,132.50 Actual Cash Value Incl. O&P
$ 2,272.00 Less Deductible
__________
$ 6,860.50 Net Actual Cash Value Payment
ADDITIONAL AMOUNTS AVAILABLE
RECOVERABLE DEPRECIATION
$ 2,607.44
$ 260.74 10% OVERHEAD
$ 260.74 10% PROFIT
__________
$ 3,128.92
If the policy does not have Replacement Cost coverage, then the insurance does not owe O&P on the depreciation.
You and I also know that the 10% profit is not the only profit in the estimate, as there are overhead and profit built into the unit prices.
If you want us in the insurance industry to believe you are totally above board, then state the whole true, not just what meets your needs. It is obvious to me that you are only concerned with misleading those who do not know as much as you think you do.
TO ALL INSUREDS:
If your contractor\’s estimate is higher than your insurance adjuster\’s, call your adjuster to discuss it. If the adjuster refuses to even review the contractor\’s estimate, then call the adjuster\’s manager. File a complaint if you need to.
Remember, when the work is done, it is the contractor who walks away with the money.
Tuesday, May 16,2006
Tony,
Interesting commentary. Attacking me though does not address real and unfair claim handling conduct.
Too, you seem to think my commentary is about myself some how.
Actually, it\’s clearly about insurers and adjusters that try to take advantage of indemnification value, and reconstruction assessing and reconstruction cost estimating naive, claimants.
You know, the kind of insurers and adjusters that pretend they can\’t grasp the fact that when a builder builds a house, they put a roofing system on using their financially planned for roofing contractor sub.
The roofing system has BOTH the builders\’ AND the roofing contractors\’ business cost built into it. Agreed?
(By the way, the same primary-general-builder / sub-trade contractors business cost value principles apply to all trade work components of a given structure, that make up it\’s whole).
If someone were to then insure the ACTUAL construction value of their roof only, what all TRUE replacement cost value would need to be covered / indemnified?
If you said, A builder valued roofing system, and all that that means, you would be correct…no?
Some construction business naive adjusters cannot grasp basic dollar investment math behind \”Cost Plus 10% estimation schedules.
Simply stated, hard and soft business costs (overhead) require real investment dollars to accomplish a given goal, that of making a pre-tax 10% return on the whole [overhead cost dollars] investment risk.
Yes Tony, anticipating a 10% profit on ALL parts of the \”Cost\” investment puzzle is fair and reasonable.
Do not get into the construction business, or claim to estimate reconstruction losses correctly, if you do not realize that business overhead is a constant project-to-project dollar investment.
Now you have no reason to not understand that business overhead dollars is part of the whole investment risk of the investing contractor, and a true 10% profit potential can be anticipated, on insurance related projects, or none insurance related projects, only when ALL \”Costs\” have a 10% margin applied to them.
Oh, and another thing Tony, I did include depreciation in the State Farm figures.
The point of the figures was to show how synthetic replacement cost math, that pretends that Contractor business overhead and profit is NOT part of Replacement Cost Values, upfront, would leave a claimant with a synthetic ACV sum.
You may want to review my past commentary from that perspective.
Too, I rarely have a problem with adjusters that can properly assess damaged property, understand sound reconstruction procedures and recognize rational reconstruction cost estimation methodology.
Any insurers / adjusters that intentionally try to do the opposite, and harm my clients, family, neighbors, or me, well…they get reported to the proper authorities.
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
P.S. For the past fourteen years, and especially the last four years, I and other contractors, and consumers, have met all kinds of unscrupulous and dishonorable insurers and adjusters.
Those insurers and adjusters that like to confuse the general public, and pretend they don\’t, no longer have the luxury of getting away with either illicit scheme.
You may want to pay close attention to the Enron case actors, and as you do, keep in mind that complacency can be a serious matter that draws other\’s attention…
Tuesday, May 16, 2006
Mark,
You want to, carefully, consider the information at the following link, and then consider the rest of the commentary;
http://www.tdi.state.tx.us/bulletins/b-0045-8.html
1. The ACV amount should reflect primary-general contractor replacement costs…depreciated.
Why so?
Replacement costs, depreciated, will NOT have primary-general-specialty contractor business overhead and profit loss values MISSING, unless a insurer can figure out somehow (indemnification and premium value wise) to estimate the future replacement procedures and costs of a covered structure without [typical and historical] primary-general contactors\’ involvement.
(It would be a neat trick if a structure could \”poof\” into existence).
Sooooo, whether a ACV (actual cash value policy) OR a RCV (replacement cost value) policy, the proper measure for ACV math is–[Primary-General] Contractor RCV minus Depreciation = ACV.
2. State Farm admitted the overhead and profit was part of the loss value by necessarily disclosing it in the DEPRECIATED ACV math.
However, by NOT keeping RCV / ACV values proportionally whole, and in proper order, the ACV loss value \”budget\” is greatly reduced (twice) on the front end.
(Once by ommitting Contractor O&P as part of Replacement Costs, and again by the ACV 10% profit line not equaling 10% of the costs above it).
Check out how much more the insured would have to work with;
$10,103.19 Sub-Total
$ 114.67 Material Tax
_________________________
$10,217.86 Sub-sub total
$ 1,021.79 10% Overhead
_________________________
$11,239.65 Total
$ 1,123.97 10% Profit
_________________________
$12,363.62 Basic Business Math Grand Total
$10,217.86 State Farm Math Grand Total
$12,363.62 Basic Business Math Grand Total
$ 2,607.44 Minus Depreciation
__________________________
$ 9,756.18 Basic Business Math ACV
$ 2,272.00 Minus Deductible
__________________________
$ 7,484.18 Net Basic Business Math ACV
$ 6,860.50 Minus State Farm Net ACV Math
__________________________
$ 623.68 ACV Dollar Difference
Depreciating the ACTUAL Contractor replacement cost loss value sum, would have favored the insured by hundreds and hundred of dollars.
Now why would that approach be fair to insureds?
To factoring a true 10% profit margin would favor the insured. (If the profit line sum does not equal 10% of the total replacement cost above it, it reaaaalllly isn\’t 10% value, is it Mark)?
(A [cool] math trick IF you want ones to walk away, not notice, or attempt to work with synthetic ACV loss values, while (the insurer) keeps the balance in the bank.
Look at it this way Mark, a uninsured property has [ALL typical contractors involved] business costs built into its creation, or PLACEMENT.
In heirarchal contractor order, the primary-general contractor is first and foremost, with all other sub-contractors used by the investing contractor to PLACE a structure.
To to calculate the replacement cost of the said placed structure, an insurance agent could ask the primary-general contractor for ALL structural construction costs from A-Z. Or they could purchase and reference MS/B type construction component data to estimate the structure\’s replacement costs. Or use a square foot / zip code based software program.
However they figure replacement costs of a structure, unless a structure can poof into place, there is no skirting of accounting for ALL TYPICAL / HISTORICAL CONSTRUCTION REPLACEMENT (RCV) COST values in either ACV or RCV policies.
ACV policies are usually cheaper because the actual cash value of the aged loss components will be the future payment schedule for loss values, and not replacement cost value.
Claiming, during the estimating of claims, that ALL contractors overhead and profit costs, factored by the agent, and reflected in premiums, are suddenly and mysteriously NOT part of predetermined replacement costs creates systhetic RCV / ACV loss values prepaid for, should a loss occur.
Here\’s the summary Mark:
1. Insurance agent estimates replacement costs of structure that real world construction estimating requires.
2. Insurers can acknowledge those apples-for-apples indemnified replacement costs when settling claims, or not.
Pretending ALL Contractors business cost values are not part of every square inch of single or multiple trade work loss claim value smacks of an illegal financial shell game…no?
Collecting premium for which loss may never be paid is illegal windfall…no?
Knowing depreciated replacement cost (ACV) values contain ALL Contractors replacement cost value pieces, then not disclosing those values IN PROPER ORDER, when adjusters estimate loss claim values, is fiducial unfairness to insureds…no?
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
P.S.
Although this does not really matter in true ACV loss math factoring, that should always reflect true depreciated RCV loss values, it is a replacement cost policy Mark.
Mark,
Thanks for answering this for me. I didn\’t get my notification that a reply was made.
Roger, any honest, hard working adjuster can see through you like a pane of glass. You KNOW Mark is right. Just because you don\’t get all your money up front, does NOT mean it will not be paid. MOST companies merely require a signed contract between the insured and a licensed GC to pay any depreciation or replacement cost benefits. You KNOW this, (IF you have been in business longer than 2 months) but you deliberately leave it out of your statement to attempt to incite support for your position.
When are you going to realize that your best option is to leave it alone. IF you find someone out there who is not doing their job properly (NOT just not the way you want it done, but improperly according to industry standards &/or company practice which if you are as experienced as you propound, you will know what each company does and doesn\’t do)
Any adjuster that is worth his salt that reads the tripe you are putting on this site can blow your claims out of the water. You know it, Mark knows it and I know it. Be honest and up front and maybe people will listen to what you have to say. Act as you have here and no wonder you have problems w/ adjusters.
To all others, Mark is right. IF there is a problem w/ your estimate vs. an insurance companies est, contact your adjuster or his/her mgr asap. There is a reason they are called estimates. Like I tell all my customers, \”I am pretty good at my job, but there was only one perfect person and I ain\’t him. I do make mistakes, but will listen if the insured or their contractor can/will point them out\”.
Roger,
We are back to your shell game. I LOVE how you use underwriting and insurance terminology to try to prove you knowledge.
What it breaks down to is you want 10% profit on your overhead. Wouldn\’t that make your profit in excess of the industry standard 10% of the cost of repairs?
Next, you want RC up front. Bubba, READ the policy. If it says RC up front, then that is what should be paid. Most (I haven\’t read all of them) state claims will be paid at ACV until repairs have been completed or \”the expense has been incurred\”. If you and I work on a claim and agree on $10K for RC and I pay it as:
$10,000 RC
-$ 1,000 Dep
-$ 1,000 Deductible
$ 8,000 ACV
Now if you and I have done this and agreed on it then it takes you six months to do the work and your costs go up to $11K that is your problem. You have a signed contract to do the work for X dollars. If YOU don\’t get it done in a reasonable time for the agreed on amount, why should the insurance companies compensate you for you running your company poorly. In short, your problem, not ours.
Having said all this, MOST companies will speak to you to determine why the costs have increased and if reasonable, will reimburse you for these costs.
You also want O&P on limited trades (one or two). O&P is due to licensed GC\’s when the expense is reasonable and necessary to effect repairs. If you have roofers on staff and you do the roof (and that is all or maybe minor paint etc) you haven\’t EARNED (difficult concept) the O&P. You KNOW there is built in profit in the base costs of an est. The O&P is for the scheduling issues, inspecting the site to insure work is progressing properly etc.
IF you have the men to do the work, and they do it, you haven\’t acted as a GC. You acted as a ROOFER! Thus, not entitled to O&P.
Last, let\’s try your creative math again.
First your example of the way it \”should\” be done:
$10,103.19 Sub-Total
$ 114.67 Material Tax
_________________________
$10,217.86 Sub-sub total
$ 1,021.79 10% Overhead
_________________________
$11,239.65 Total
$ 1,123.97 10% Profit
_________________________
$12,363.62 Basic Business Math Grand Total
Using the same numbers and depreciation (which isn\’t owed until the work is done per the policy).
The amount due is:
$10,217.86
+$ 1,021.79 Overhead
+$ 1,021.79 Profit
$12,261.44 Subtotal One
-$ 1,000.00 Depreciation
-$ 100.00 Depreciated Overhead
-$ 100.00 Depreciated Profit
$11,061.44 Subtotal Two
-$ 1,000.00 Deductible
$10,061.44 Total due Insured NOW
$ 1,200.00 Depreciated amount due Insured upon receipt of signed contract (depending on company) or work completion.
Total Insured MAY receive from Ins. Co.
$10,061.44 ACV
$ 1,200.00 RC (or Depreciation) Benefits
$11,261.44 Total due upon completion etc.
The ONLY difference now (without the creative math) is the $1000 deductible you didn\’t include in your numbers and the $102.18 difference between the OWED profit and the profit on the overhead.
Again, obfuscation is your modus operandi. It\’s amazing what someone who is used to dealing w/ people like you can find when they clear away your song and dance.
To quote a great, \”Go away little boy, you bother me\”.
Roger,
It was a small company that mainly handled small new construction or minor to moderate reconstruction. Usually our contracts were between $1000 to (the largest was) approx $30,000. We used a time/material cost basis. We would figure out the materials and the approx amount of time and give a price based off that. If we estimate a job would take 40 hours and it took 50 we didn\’t whine and complain, it was our mistake, we ate the difference. In the same vein if it took 30 hours, we weren\’t offering refunds either. Now having said that, if we ran up against something unexpected (rot for instance) we would notify the owner and discuss what needed to be done.
Like I said, a small company, but we were happy with it. You would be amazed how many people need help on the little things.
Roger,
I think you are missing the point on RC vs. ACV. The insurance companies don\’t owe you a penny. They owe the insured (depending on policy) ACV or RC up front. It makes absolutely no difference if you use the term \”synthetic replacement cost\”, \”synthetic ACV\” etc. The issue is what is owed up front. That is really quite simple, and depends solely and wholly on what the policy states will be paid (ACV vs. RC).
Do I think that 10% profit is too much, nope. Sure don\’t. I do have a problem w/ contractors griping about the amount paid when the ADDITIONAL 10% is for a GC for his efforts in scheduling, planning, ensuring proper and timely completion, etc. and the people griping they don\’t get it are acting solely as roofers. The afore mentioned 10% is for the GC, not a/the subs. The prices that most companies pay are adequate for the company to make a profit based on that alone. Now is there varying rates based on a cat situation, quite possibly. I suggest looking more at quantity of jobs as opposed to making a years worth of profit on one job. In short, while I can sympathize, it isn\’t my problem, it is the guy who is earning the 10%.
10% overhead costs is another amount paid. Whether I feel as if it is owed or not, is not my decision (which by the way, I do believe it is a fair and adequate amount), but the company I work for says pay it TO A GC, so it is owed. Simple as that.
You quote: \”Cost Plus 10% estimation schedules. The rub is that the prices insurance companies pay is not cost, but there is a built in profit for the subs. So your quote should be: \”Actual incurred cost, plus 10%\”. That would be much more accurate.
Your \”builder valued roofing system\” cracks me up. You are trying to compare apples to oranges and using poor terminology to do so. IF a GC hires a sub to roof a building in addition to other work (painting, drywall, electrical, flooring, etc) then the GC should be owed and paid O&P on all items including the roofing. IF a GC ACTS as a roofer and does no other work or a minimal amount (paint a ceiling, etc) O&P should NOT be owed or paid. O&P is not built in additional profit for a GC, just because he is a GC. It is for the work a GC does in supervising the reconstruction process, especially if the GC has no or minimal staff to actually do the work and has to use a myriad of subs.
Why do I think your commentary is about you? Good point. I\’ll give you that one. I think you are echoing the sentiments and trying to justify opinions of various contractors you know including yourself. I have dealt w/ contractors who purport opinions like yours and most of the time when they realize they aren\’t going to pull the wool over someones eyes, they back off. I will give you credit for persistence. The rub lies in that your arguments are specious (look it up)at best and have no basis other than what you perceive as the insurance companies bias against you/yours/etc.
You put out blanket statements about AllState, State Farm, Traveler\’s etc without crediting these companies for the quality employees that they have. An average of 1-2% of people will be difficult to work with in any given claims situation. This statistic has been around for years and has been verified by different companies. I wonder what percentage of people you have mislead or even just talked to, are difficult to work with. BTW, I am NOT talking about trying to cheat someone, or pay less than what is owed, etc. I simply mean common courtesy, decency and understanding that these adjusters are doing the VERY best they can and working with them instead of berating them, chastising them or trying to bully them.
Last, you are really tiresome. Your rants and diatribes do not take into account any points of view other than your own, with no room for any type of informational sharing. You think you are owed more than you got/get and want more. That is why I think your commmentary is about yourself and not the industry as a whole. I try to give honest forthright opinions/facts (when I have them) to explain the claim process (with my company anyway) so people who come here may gain some insight into the procedure. You want to argue over nickels when there are $100 bills laying on the table? Go for it, but don\’t be surprised when an adjuster who has heard BS like yours before, stands up and does what is right, even though it may not be expedient for him, the customer or you.
Like mama said, \”You can catch more flies w/ honey than with vinegar\”. Moral: Treat adjusters right (courteous, honest, fair and if there is a problem treat it like a mistake, which it probably was, not an attempt to defraud someone) and they will work with you. Don\’t and do not be surprised when you and your customer get an appt next month at the earliest.
Wednesday, May 17, 2006
Tony,
Have you ever owned a construction business?
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
In a manner of speaking. My brother and I used to several years back. It was not a large business, but we were quite comfortable. Then I got married and moved out of state, so take that as you will. He did the construction aspects and I handled the business end along w/ earning customers. That is one of the reasons I am rather passionate about this issue. I know that there is good money to be made with no one going hungry for those who do the right thing and just plain work hard.
5-17-2006
Tony,
What kind of construction business was it?
What kind of estimating data did you use in the business to formulate construction costs?
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
5-18-2006
1. Security cameras, throughout the city, that functioned through Katrina / Rita may have recorded the events.
2. Did any storm reporting news crews, residents, or storm chasers, stay and video record the event?
Did any one stay in a safe, high, place and record how the wind was affecting structures before, during, and after the tidal surge came?
3. Weather / military satellite records.
Remote sensing image devices, from space, may be very helpful on a case-by-case basis.
Was infrared, or structural / topographic monitoring type technology, or other technology, in place to record (from space) the wind cause and effect on structures, before, during, and after any tidal surge occured?
Can they even do that, down to a license plate on a car, during a storm?
Even empty concrete slabs and lots may have had their previous structures\’ storm generated deconstruction \”history\” witnessed and recorded, in space.
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
ClaimHawk,
While your opinion is noted and quite appreciated, it would seem to me that you are the one who \”fell down\” on the job. You stated that you had a 3 week course that (to paraphrase) taught you the in\’s and out\’s of the policy. If it took you three weeks to learn this, then you should have been able to interpret the policy fairly clearly after this length of time.
Having said this, it would seem that there may be issues of \”good faith\” that can be raised with the company you were working for.
My question is, did the company you were being paid by (the independent adjusting firm) tell you to provide less coverage, or did the assigning company (the insurance company)? If it was the insurance company, why didn\’t you raise the topic at hand while you were working for them? It is rather easy to bad mouth someone when you will gain from it, rather then when they are signing your paycheck.
Seems kinda self-serving to me, but what do I know?
By the way, I am guessing that those who have posted on this thread will truly appreciate your apologizing for them to Mr. Poe. Especially now that you have no interest whatsoever on the fiduciary outcome of the claim (Di you mention, that you receive a portion of the claim amount from the insurance company? I believe 10% of what the insurance company pays to the Insured is due you under standard contract in Florida. Who is going to pay the additional 10% to get the work done?)?
Just random thoughts……….
Roger,
Of course what I and others have to say doesn\’t bother you………. You have your opinion (God Bless America that you have that right) and to Hades with those who have the temerity to side against you.
To echo NK\’s thoughts, why didn\’t Martha speak up when she was getting paid by the insurer? If fraudulent, deceptive or unfair claim practices were going on, then she should have notified the local authorities (what state, I am no sure as there is no mention) and done something about it then. Seems to me that Martha is rather self-serving in that NOW she has a problem with what is going on, but didn\’t mention it when her paycheck was being signed by the insurance company.
BTW, I am not condemning you Martha, just wondering why you didn\’t do the right thing (whistleblowing) when you had the opportunity. I know that if the company I worked for did something illegal, I would certainly mention it. My morals wouldn\’t let me do anything else.
Roger,
Some wonderful thoughts. Maybe Charles can get the Department of Defense to place a spy satellite in a geo-stationary orbit during the next hurricane.
Charles,
The best thing I can say is that whenever I am on a claim, I look for coverage, not exclusions. If you can prove to me (so I could take it to my supervisor) that the damage was from wind and not flood, I will write you a check so fast your heart will stop. The big issue here is what is provable. I have said it before, that if one can show/prove damages (as required by the policy) then they should be paid for it. Having said that, the person I work for has quoted to me (and I live by the mantra) the benefit of the doubt goes to the insured.
I have seen what 150+mph winds can do to a house and they are nothing compared to what a 20ft. storm surge can do.
My suggestion to you would be to have the adjuster and/the supervisor show/tell you why they believe there is an excluded event that damaged your property.
I realize you have suffered a loss, and I am truly sorry that you did, but being realistic, if it was flood and you didn\’t have a flood policy to save th $1500 per year, that is a decision you made. And, like I am trying to get through my 16 year olds head, we all have to live with our decisions.
NKN,
While your thoughts are valid and due consideration, my main thought that you didn\’t address is: As any adjuster knows, a \”Bad Faith\” claim to the Insurance Commisioner is something to be avoided at nearly all costs. If ClaimHawks company was abusing the customers, why did ClaimHawk not stand up for them? I realize that it is difficult to \”cut one\’s own throat\”, but if there was truly abuse or fraud going on, why did ClaimHawk wait until she was a Public Adjuster to make this information known. Like the man says, \”What\’s right is right, no matter who says/does it\”.
Posted On: May 7, 2006, 5:53 pm CDT
Posted By: Martha Kirwin
Comment:Federal Judge in Mississippi \’Storm Surge\’ Case Upholds Home Insurance Flood Exclusion
Gentlemen,
I have been an adjuster for six years. Having grown up with a homebuilder and insurance agent for parents, it was a natural choice after grad school.
Until December \’05, I worked for a large catastrophe adjusting firm. My husband and I worked together while traveling the country, earning a fabulous income, and meeting extraordinary people.
Prior to 2004 I experienced very few instances of practices by insurers that I would have labeled negligent, illegal, or deceptive.
In general, most insurers appeared to have an interest in settling claims quickly and fairly within the boundaries of their contracts. In order to achieve good will, I have seen insurers pay for losses(food replacement, etc.) that were not legitimatly covered under the policy.
During this period, one of the most difficult aspects of my job was explaining coverage to the insureds.
After grad school, I took a three week, 120-hour course on policy coverage, after which I felt as though I had obtained an acceptable level of understanding on how to interpret property coverage language.
Yet, on many occasions thereafter, I made mistakes. It soon became evident that the vast majority of policy holders had an extremely limited knowledge of their coverages.
Not surprising, given that they do not take three week courses.
In 100% of the scenarios in which I have adjusted losses, the insureds were either surprised to learn that some portion of their property was not covered or limited to some degree below that which they understood to be limited.
Prior to 2004 however, these situations did not typically result in tragic outcomes for the insureds. In each instance, I encouraged the insureds to contact their agents for clarification and recommendations for updating or upgrading their coverages.
Unfortunately, beginning with the four hurricanes in 2004, claims adjusting practices have changed dramatically. Suddenly, roofs, carpets, awnings, and a litany of other trades are no longer allowed to be considered for Overhead and Profit by many insurers.
Taxes and O&P are no longer are part of the calculation for ACV. We \”negotiate\” different prices with individual insureds as if we were purchasing an automobile.
My neighbor might have been paid $1400 per Square for the same roof that I was only allowed $900 from the same insurer.
To my astonishment, I have come to know that most of the claims that I have adjusted were estimated with a price database that is 70-110% below actual market pricing.
And worse, these people who I left \”knowing\” that I had worked diligently to find all the coverage available to them, were taking the proceeds of those claims and settling for those amounts.
The majority had no inclination that they had alternatives or could file supplements or dispute in any manner, the amounts of the settlements.
Needless to say, after two years of struggling with the ever increasing restraints and borderline illegal practices to which I was forced to impose on these uninformed consumers, I resigned my position as an independent adjuster.
In December of 2005, I opened a public adjusting firm in South Florida. Now, we experience on a daily basis the abhorrent practices of insurance companies and those adjusters who represent them.
Understand that it is my position that there are companies that handle their claims quickly, precisely, and professional in total compliance with the contract.
However, those companies are in the vast minority.
Last week, we filed a Civil Remedy on behalf of one of our clents siting 19 violations of statutes by one of the largest insurers in the state. My firm is representing over 300 clients currently and this is our current statistical compilation:
287 claims open in excess of 180 days.
143 in violation of at least five Florida statutes relating to adjusting practices.
These numbers represent staggering figures. On the average, we collect 293% more money from the insurance companies than was estimated originally and we achieve this by using the same adjusting practices that I have used for six years.
Mr. Poe, on behalf of those in this profession who take pride in said profession, I will apologize on behalf of these representatives of our industry, who with obvious disdain and disregard for the wide-spread consequences of their arrogance and flagrantly, biased disrespect for their insureds, contractors, attorneys or any others who oppose or even call into question their righteousness, honor, or the finality of their opinions.
Their defensive, territorial chest-beating and sophomoric, belittling statements are a clear indication of exactly why consumers need protection. Whether or not your business practices are ethical is completely beyond my discernment; however, I appreciate your seemingly sincere interest and dedication to making a difference in our industry.
5-18-2006
Martha,
You commented:
\”Unfortunately, beginning with the four hurricanes in 2004, claims adjusting practices have changed dramatically. Suddenly, roofs, carpets, awnings, and a litany of other trades are no longer allowed to be considered for Overhead and Profit by many insurers.
Taxes and O&P are no longer are part of the calculation for ACV. We \”negotiate\” different prices with individual insureds as if we were purchasing an automobile.\”
and,
\”Mr. Poe, on behalf of those in this profession who take pride in said profession, I will apologize on behalf of these representatives of our industry, who with obvious disdain and disregard for the wide-spread consequences of their arrogance and flagrantly, biased disrespect for their insureds, contractors, attorneys or any others who oppose or even call into question their righteousness, honor, or the finality of their opinions.
Their defensive, territorial chest-beating and sophomoric, belittling statements are a clear indication of exactly why consumers need protection.\”
__________
Thank you Martha for your frank commentary. What Tony and others like him have to say does not bother me.
What bothers me is that naive consumers and others, even in regualtory, and other governmental authority positions, would believe their half truths and misinformation, if left up to them alone to explain their conduct.
It seems that Texas is the testing ground for such unfair conduct, and then the rest of the nation receives the polished results. The claim handling conduct you described has been going on here hot and heavy since 2002.
From my client records, Allstate, State Farm, Farmers, Safeco, USAA and the Texas Wind Storm Association have treated their insureds, and contractors, quite interestingly since 2002.
I truly believe the DOJ and FBI are going to investigate such matters, as they have become too large, and too obvious, to go on unaddressed.
By the way Martha, \”From Good Hands To Boxing Gloves\” is being published shortly.
Allstate tried to keep it from being published. Hmmmmm….Their explanation, to a judge, was not \”convincing\”.
You might \”Google\” search the book title, and too, please feel free to contact me.
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
Subject: Market Conduct Check List For Allstate-Travelers-State Farm
Posted On: May 18, 2006, 3:42 pm CDT
Posted By: Roger Poe
Comment:
5-18-2006
Synthetic Claim Settlement Check List
1. Are labor dollars needed for all materials installed missing from roofing, dry-wall, etc. trade labor costs?
Allstate believes that a 3000 SF shingled roof that needs 3300 SF of materials AND 3300 labor costs for the completed project, should only show 3000 SF labor costs in their \”fair trade\” estimates.
By the way Allstate, the extra labor line that the MS/B IntegriClaim program data has for clean-up work is VERY different cost wise from the unit labor costs that should apply to the 300 SF production costs.
Job site clean-up work costs throughout a projects\’ duration is QUITE different from ACTUAL trade production installation work unit costs.
2. Cross reference actual regional material and labor costs, especially in early estimate paperwork put out to claimants.
MS/B\’s storm damaged property reconstruction costs surge databases verses \”new\” construction costs data, and Craftsman Publishing\’s \’2006 National Renovation & Insurance Repair Estimator\’ should give pretty close [post-catastrophe] reconstruction costs in a given region.
If [Allstate] used new construction costs as an estimation base, then MS/B data costs for different regions in Louisiana should be easily proven by referencing a copy of MS/B\’s software version used by the general construction public, not necessarily the version that Allstate had designed for their own use.
Since both Allstate and MS/B realize actual (before hurricanes Katrina / Rita) new construction price data for Louisiana, any synthetically LOW, or missing, MS/B construction COMPONENT costs for REconstruction labor, materials, sales tax, and primary-general-subtrade contractors overhead and profit, etc. values will show up throughout their estimates.
Be aware though that, from the start of forming a construction estimate, \”NEW\” construction labor, materials and overhead unit costs are going to be QUITE LOWER than historical REconstruction unit work costs, especially after a storm).
Reconstruction costs can easily be 30-50%+ higher than new construction costs, plus post storm materials, labor and business overhead cost market increases add even higher costs to reconstruction costs.
3. See if ALL Contractor Overhead and profit line items are missing from estimates. Replacement Costs depreciated = Actual Cash Value, and still have those collective loss value costs woven in.
4. If not line itemed seperately, have them prove that roofing, fencing, carpeting, etc. specialty trade contractors business overhead and profit costs are in the unit costs of each specialty trade.
Allstate has been using a basic 29% contractor\’s overhead and profit margin line item that some adjusters are touting as being THE primary-general Contractors business overhead and profit line item.
Actually, an additional 10%and10% (20%)overhead and profit factor is recognized by Allstate, if one\’s would, perchance, know to ask about those [basic] primary-general contractor mark-up factors.
5. See if Allstate claims that primary-general contractors are only \”necessary\” if there is structural damage included in the loss.
6. See if either company expects that premiums paid them for replacement procedures and costs of a structure anticipate the general public to act as their own contractor, OR does MS/B type data, used in part for actuarially estimating future replacement costs of a structure, at an insurance agents desk, historically accounts for primary-general contractor involvement first and foremost, with their own staff and sub-contractors support.
6. See if Allstate claims that 2-3 or more specialty trades work is required before a primary-general contractor is \”necessary\”.
7. See how many field adjusters were required during the life of a claim.
(Was Pilot Claim Service involved?)
8. Audit claim estimates from the nicer neighborhoods verses claims from the less well off neighborhoods. See if just roofing damage was accounted for, and if said damage was only damage if roofing material was missing.
9. Interview a mix of claimants to see how they were treated in person, or by mail / e-mail, or over the phone.
Did the adjuster dismiss or play down legitimate exterior and interior (wind / wind driven rain) damage?
10. Interview Allstate / Pilot Claim Service, Saint Paul Travelers and State Farm adjusters, and contrast their claim handling views with other [independent adjusters] views.
11. Publish specific examination results based in part on the above check-list so as to benefit the general public.
12. Resist anyones notion that such [publically known] construction data, and/or insurers market conduct is a \”trade secret\” somehow.
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
Claim Hawk, I have been wondering how many decent adjusters have said,\” No more falseness, dishonesty to close to me — I\’ll be sullied sooner or later! –I quit!\” Also , how does the individual claiment \”fight\” the multi-billion dollar insurer that insists that Katrina did not cause ANY loss as there was flooding at, by or on your property..??? After inquiring abaout my small claim, $10,000 was told on the phone that \”If it got wet you not getting a \”dime\” [or penny, perhaps!]. I do not see how after over 20 years and no problems, I can do any more business with State Farm….and neighbors and friends tell me of similar experiences. After discust with no action, I , for one, badgered the \”AUTHORITIES\” [read…Insurance Commissiioner and Attorney, seem only to be able to travel about 300 miles, meet State Farm employees? in madiation or arbitration??? Even then how can I or State Farm PROOVE there was WINDSTORM damage [called Katrina] PRIOR to any water [read flood]damage. When I examined the scene of the missing or destroyed building and contents it seemed OBVIOUS there was EVIDENCE of extreme wind destruction….I do not think the claims folks had ever been to a Cat site, let alone the subject property—-but I have little in the way of proof other than photos of the area that was totally devistated–literally nothing of a building and ZERO contents. Please anyone, give us some ideas or tips on how to handle this travesty. Thanks, Charles
Mrs. Kirwin\’s comments were republished, in smaller bites, for clarity sake.
Your comments about her observations are noticeably selective.
Your comments about Mr. Poe\’s observations are also quite selective.
Considering their commentary, with objective precision, and then contrasting their observations with other\’s comments in return, makes for some interesting and thought provoking reading.
5-19-2006
NKN / Tony,
My comment\’s are attempts to help others, and expose suspect and blatantly unfair and irrational claim handling conduct that has, and is, affecting many, many consumers.
Belittle and find fault with that however you need to.
No matter what other\’s say, or do,
truth has a way of surfacing on it\’s own.
Always.
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
I had some tenant improvements done on a retail location. The landlord required $2Million in Insurance limits and my GC only carried $1M. I agreed to pay for the additional premium he would be charged to increase his limits.
I have two problems:
1. The GC\’s insurance agent sold him (me) an excess policy for his entire company instead of a project policy to cover just my project and the premium was three times what it should have been. On top of that, the policy runs for the remainder of his GL policy period, long after my project was completed and was called \”noncancellable.\”
2. The GC charged me overhead and profit on top of the premium! I thought you had to have an insurance license to make money on an insurance premium.
Help! Do I have any recourse? Spitzer would have a field day with this, I\’m sure, but I\’m just a little guy and the amount in question is roughly $1,000.
Mark,
Is making a reasonable return on a legitimate investment risk wrong?
rogerpoegc@yahoo.com
What blew the roof off of the Superdome in New Orleans and What blew high rise windows out of hotels and casinos from
Louisiana to Mississippi?
FACT: Katrina Winds hit land 1-4 hours
before water rised.
FACT: Katrina Winds 100-200 MPH
THIS IS AMERICA…
THEY CAN\’T DO THIS IN AMERICA
QUESTION: Why do we have a seperate Hurricane Deductible in our policy?
That is often 15% of the policy limit
and coverage for damage above the
WATER LINE!!
Wake Up America! Demand Justice because they will do this again.
Because they can.
Wake up pull your head out of you ### and lower your Hurricane deductible and pay for flood insurance like everybody else has too! I\’ve heard enough crying the blues over this to last a lifetime!
Hey Buddy,
Your time will come. I guarantee it.
When you try to get a claim paid from Your Homeowners Insurance, It will be you crying, not singing the blues…
It\’s you that needs to wake up.
My Eyes are wide open & I can see what is going on in Corporate America.
Can you say Enron?
I had Flood Ins & Homeowners too!
Perhaps you should keep your *** in your head…
Don\’t need you & don\’t want your opinion.
Go Away!
roger poe is my brother and he’s an idiot
phillip tinis sent me and jan a christmas card…he must have lost his mind