REPRINTED from another post: My partners and I just returned from visiting several of our carriers. An annual trip designed to gather carrier information and direction. Here are tidbitss that we gathered during our visits. Cincinnati appears to be headed for significant concerns and could be driven by their financial issues. Safeco will likely exist West, as the lead LRAM carrier for Liberty, but will probably be consumed in the Midwest and EAst by other LRAM carriers. Safeco may also beocme the direct marketing arm for LM, similar to a GEICO or e-surance carrier. QBE is looking for another purchase and it could be a carrier like Selective – strong in the east, or Fireman’s Fund with strong brand recognition and platform. They just missed on an $8 billion deal in Australia, so they have the ability for a $1B to $6B deal in the US. West Bend also will have some financial issues because they are likely headed for a combined over 100 again, and maybe as high as 105 or more. Look out for Hanover, they will continue to strengthen and might also be looking at some acquisition or merger opportunities. they are strong. Travelers is in great shape but not looking to buy, which is a surprise
This company is one interesting case study. You have nepotism, bullying, no diversity and incompetence running throughout. An allegience to 5/3rd bank that is unprecedented and the majority of the workload is given to Independent agents who are treated like dogs. A long way from the founding philosophy of “sitting around the kitchen table and writing an insurance policy”.
Did I mention lack of diversity? I don’t know if there is one African- American acting officer with real authority.
Many Personal Lines U/W’s are bullied by one senior member of management so bad they look for ways to abandon ship, while Commercial line Underwriters struggle to keep up with the out dated technology and policy issuing systems and reams of cumbersome paper and disorganization.
The Life Dept is a joke and not competitivly priced. Again, lack of technology or innovation is the source of decline. I estimate that we will see continued decline to a point where CFC will have to abandon certain lines as they have been so lazy with collecting their profits for so long they’ve never managed to catch up to the 21st century.
BAD INVESTMENT, TRUST ME- BEEN THERE, DONE THAT
As someone competing against them, we have seen some stupid pricing coming out of this company in the past couple of months. I guess they haven’t caught on yet….
How does not having a black officer in the company have to do with Cinn. poor underwriting and their cheap rate? A person should not be given a position for the their skin color but only for their competence.
I agree with MarketWatcher! I cannot believe the types of accounts they will write at prices that are not nearly commensurate with the risk. Not to mention they don’t loss control anything that I’m aware of which, in my experience, leaves the door wide open for unscrupulous agents.
In 100% agreement with Competitor. We compete against them on a lot of habitational business. They’re writing frame at 4 & 5 cent net rates. They’re going to get burned, literally, with these premiums.
the only thing dumber is the fact that agents keep putting business with them at that pricing. Some agents are afraid of their own shadow & won’t sell to save their life. CIC seems to cater to these agents all the time.
Well it looks like CinFin is finally getting their turn….Ive been an Executive Recruiter working the P&C industry for over 20 years now and Ive just been amazed at how CinFin has just sat there doing the same things over and over with now regard to how things are changing around them.
I’ve been an agent for Cincinnati Insurance for many years. I’m very proud of our partnership with Cincinnati. We represent nearly every major carrier and (too) many regionals. Our mutually profitable relationship with Cincinnati is built on trust. Together, we decide on appropriate pricing and what type of accounts to insure. Together we settle claims and utilize loss control. If forced to choose between doing business with Cincinnati or “the field”, I’d choose Cincinnati. Partnership is more than a word. It’s the way they do business. They’ve always been loyal to me and I’ll be returning that favor. My guess is most Cincinnat agents feel the same way.
Proud to be a Cincinnati agent: I have to admit to you that for all of the bashing of Cincinnati here, it makes me wonder why I see so many BIG agencies committed to them. You write the reasons why agents are so loyal to them, and more carriers should be like them. Even given all of their shortcomings, they seem to build relationships and loyalty. Our agency doesn’t have them, but we often wish we did. The only problem, and i’m hearing it from a lot of sources, is that Cincinnati appears to be finally heading for some very dark days. Lots of problems, and maybe too many to recover from.
Well, if you read the quotes from AM Best, the big problem is that Cincinnati is poo-pooing the entire issue. Unfortunately that little A++ is heading for an A or even a minus. Give it 6 months. And the party IS over. Cincinnati won’t be a player again until 2010. Watch.
Meanwhile, what I want to know is just when will Lib Mutual and their tribe get theirs? They are buying busines – no underwriting – across the countryside. AND NOW they are even starting to compete against each other! We just bowed out on an account that expired at $175,000. We were at $110,000 and another agent had Indiana at $95,000. LIBERTY was at $85,000 – and the last I heard the other agent was trying to reload with Indiana?? Just who in the heck are these people trying to kid??? Now they are even underselling each other?
Cincinnati has much lower turnover than any other company I know. And much better than the like of Hartford, Zurich etc. Many employees stay with Cincy for their entire careers. And most are there for a substantial time. Maybe it wasn’t the employer, but the employee that was the problem (check mirror).
Ahem. check that. The employees stay at cincinnati becuase they have nowhere else to go. Kind of like the employees in Sun Prairie, WI or Westfield, OH or West Bend or Pekin, IL or Frankenmuth, MI. if you spend 25 years there, just where do you think you’ll go? They can treat you like crud. And most do.
Congratulations to CIC for finally getting what is coming to them. Their agents may be in support and proud to represent them now, but let’s see where they stand when their ratings fall. Selling would be the best thing that the Schiff family could do to help those employees who don’t get a 401K to at least recoup some of their stock losses. I hear Liberty is still looking to buy. Who’s to say that the Fairfield CIC complex won’t have a Lady Liberty standing proudly infront one day.
I used to work at CIC until recently and still literally have nightmares about returning to that place for employment. The PL VP, Helmers, is one of the biggest jerks in the company. He has his little groupies that intimidates into submission.
I have also read here and know that CIC treats their agency base like royalty…that is very true. The commission structure is awesome and the yearly trips for agents is five star treatment. If only they treated their employees as well.
I’m not happy to see the stock go down so low but the company needs to think about what makes them successful and that is their employees.
We are also proud to represent Cincinnati, as are all their agents. They are highly selective in choosing the agencies to represent them, so I can understand some of the reaction from competitors. Loyalty and commitment are real to them and with us. They are not sophisticated underwriters but look at their combined ratios over the past 10+ years – always superior to the competion. They are having some portfolio problems now, but they will make the necessary adjustments. One thing you can count on – they will not over-react.
I’m glad the agents can reap the benefits of the hard work of the underwriters and staff of CIC. You can go on your President Club all expense paid trips. You are loyal because of what CIC gives you…I get that. BUT…
Agents should walk one day in the shoes of CIC underwriters and you can then tell them to look in the mirror and see who is the problem…not them.
As a competitor, Cincinnati is a great company and one that is well-respected. However, Cincinnati has almost ignored automation and their business model, while once the best, is showing age. To ignore automation and rating sophistication for so long will be difficult to recover from.
we are a mid-sized agency in arkansas and are proud to have cincy as our top carrier. sure , mistakes have been made – but they are correctable. the insurance and distribution side is very strong. the investment allocation will be corrected now over time. cincy has been loyal to us – we WILL be loyal to them.
Yes, I’ve heard that Erie is looking at the opportunity too. It will likley be an aggressive offer that the Cincy can’t ignore because of all of their current problems.
1. B-CAuse we are the last ones left. Yes we have survived 10 years through kiss arses and senior management that has the combined IQ of a 3 year old after drinking ginko biloba…and now finally have a management position that a salaraaay of an entry level dish washer at Montgomery Inn
2. Because our underwritin is sooo eazy. All we do is look here in dis here manual and ita tells us what we need to do. We don’t eeven hafto think about anyting. It is so awsome.
3. Our CSRs take 500 smoke breaks a day. They are full time smokers and partime processers. Everyonce in a while they do this thing called work. Then the beestest thing is when they are behind in processing, they make these here underwriters come in on the weekends and not the CSRs that cause these here problems.
4. We like to play on the internet and dez here fools let us without no penalties. No high speed at home in my trailor so I’z a love it.
5. We promote pomisscuwity geezal petes between JP and JB they have gotten more interal BJ’s than a vegas call girl squad. We also promote people that have had nummmerous affairs and external fun huddy hahaha
6. yeah we treat our agents good on the outside but we pay our here employees squat because they are whats cauld replacable. They are likke gerbils that just fit until they are ready to go onto the next wheel.
7. oops only seven..but just like cincy i always will let you down when it comes to numbers, rates, and teknologeee. But weeze real smart and our agents like us because we nice and we like them…unless…..
Notice that I am an “Agent in Cincinnati”, not a Cincinnati Agent!
There is as reason for my making this distinction. That’s because while it is not uncommon to find many agencies proudly representing CIC in other cities and towns, there are only a handful of agencies in the Cincinnati area that represent CIC. I’ve heard various rumors over the years as to why this is, but it is my understanding that the Schiff family wanted it that way – and any agent who seeks appointment in this geographic area must have the blessing of all the other CIC agents – which would have about as much chance of happening as a Flat Income Tax(can you say “restraint of trade”?).
This goes directly to the perception in these parts of CIC and their licensed agents. CIC is a TOUGH competitor around here and makes no bones about throwing it’s weight around. Plus, due to their exclusive representation, Cincinnati area CIC agents are often times rather arrogant – as they see themselves as “The Chosen Ones”. These traits have made the other agents in Cincinnati want to dance with glee when this news was released. Even postings on this site have mentioned that CIC is finally going to have it’s day of reckoning!
Is this a case of jealousy? Are we like kids on the school playground watching the class bully be escorted to the principal’s office?
Well, yes I suppose those of us who are not CIC agents (the “unclean” in the local Cincinnati area) are in a way.
Stock insurers serve two masters – policyholders and shareholders – and it is not often that their interests coincide. For many years CIC was able to balance the interests of both in a way that made other insurers green with envy. But now the game has changed.
Can CIC like the old Timex commercial, “take a lickin’ and keep on tickin'”? I think they will, but one thing that might need to change is CIC’s posture toward agency appointments in their own backyard and their attitude that they are the INVINCIBLE Cincinnati Insurance Company.
Being a Cincinnati Agent I am very concerned about the direction of the company. When I was growing up if an existing client would go shopping with a Cincy Dec Page in hand other agents would not even quote against it. The only policies we ever loose in our agency seems to come from Cincinnati. They have horrible claims services, their rates are terrible on personal lines, their technology is the worst. We have very recently taken on Travelers because it is inevitable Cincinnati Claims is going to upset our biggest client and we needed a backup to move this account. It is funny agents that don’t have Cincinnati really want them and I as a Cincinnati Agent there is not a day goes by where I wish I didn’t have them. Our claims adjuster has upset 4 of our clients just this year, we pass it on to middle management and they don’t address it. I have a saying I live by: If you can’t work with them, you work around them.
Hello – this is a significant wake-up call for Cincinnati agents ! Watch what you put here, and how much. This is going to snowball.
REPRINTED from another post: My partners and I just returned from visiting several of our carriers. An annual trip designed to gather carrier information and direction. Here are tidbitss that we gathered during our visits. Cincinnati appears to be headed for significant concerns and could be driven by their financial issues. Safeco will likely exist West, as the lead LRAM carrier for Liberty, but will probably be consumed in the Midwest and EAst by other LRAM carriers. Safeco may also beocme the direct marketing arm for LM, similar to a GEICO or e-surance carrier. QBE is looking for another purchase and it could be a carrier like Selective – strong in the east, or Fireman’s Fund with strong brand recognition and platform. They just missed on an $8 billion deal in Australia, so they have the ability for a $1B to $6B deal in the US. West Bend also will have some financial issues because they are likely headed for a combined over 100 again, and maybe as high as 105 or more. Look out for Hanover, they will continue to strengthen and might also be looking at some acquisition or merger opportunities. they are strong. Travelers is in great shape but not looking to buy, which is a surprise
This company is one interesting case study. You have nepotism, bullying, no diversity and incompetence running throughout. An allegience to 5/3rd bank that is unprecedented and the majority of the workload is given to Independent agents who are treated like dogs. A long way from the founding philosophy of “sitting around the kitchen table and writing an insurance policy”.
Did I mention lack of diversity? I don’t know if there is one African- American acting officer with real authority.
Many Personal Lines U/W’s are bullied by one senior member of management so bad they look for ways to abandon ship, while Commercial line Underwriters struggle to keep up with the out dated technology and policy issuing systems and reams of cumbersome paper and disorganization.
The Life Dept is a joke and not competitivly priced. Again, lack of technology or innovation is the source of decline. I estimate that we will see continued decline to a point where CFC will have to abandon certain lines as they have been so lazy with collecting their profits for so long they’ve never managed to catch up to the 21st century.
BAD INVESTMENT, TRUST ME- BEEN THERE, DONE THAT
As someone competing against them, we have seen some stupid pricing coming out of this company in the past couple of months. I guess they haven’t caught on yet….
How does not having a black officer in the company have to do with Cinn. poor underwriting and their cheap rate? A person should not be given a position for the their skin color but only for their competence.
I agree with MarketWatcher! I cannot believe the types of accounts they will write at prices that are not nearly commensurate with the risk. Not to mention they don’t loss control anything that I’m aware of which, in my experience, leaves the door wide open for unscrupulous agents.
In 100% agreement with Competitor. We compete against them on a lot of habitational business. They’re writing frame at 4 & 5 cent net rates. They’re going to get burned, literally, with these premiums.
the only thing dumber is the fact that agents keep putting business with them at that pricing. Some agents are afraid of their own shadow & won’t sell to save their life. CIC seems to cater to these agents all the time.
that’s awful noble of you. Good luck with that & the selling of increases and lower rating in a soft market.
Well it looks like CinFin is finally getting their turn….Ive been an Executive Recruiter working the P&C industry for over 20 years now and Ive just been amazed at how CinFin has just sat there doing the same things over and over with now regard to how things are changing around them.
I’ve been an agent for Cincinnati Insurance for many years. I’m very proud of our partnership with Cincinnati. We represent nearly every major carrier and (too) many regionals. Our mutually profitable relationship with Cincinnati is built on trust. Together, we decide on appropriate pricing and what type of accounts to insure. Together we settle claims and utilize loss control. If forced to choose between doing business with Cincinnati or “the field”, I’d choose Cincinnati. Partnership is more than a word. It’s the way they do business. They’ve always been loyal to me and I’ll be returning that favor. My guess is most Cincinnat agents feel the same way.
Proud to be a Cincinnati agent: I have to admit to you that for all of the bashing of Cincinnati here, it makes me wonder why I see so many BIG agencies committed to them. You write the reasons why agents are so loyal to them, and more carriers should be like them. Even given all of their shortcomings, they seem to build relationships and loyalty. Our agency doesn’t have them, but we often wish we did. The only problem, and i’m hearing it from a lot of sources, is that Cincinnati appears to be finally heading for some very dark days. Lots of problems, and maybe too many to recover from.
Well, if you read the quotes from AM Best, the big problem is that Cincinnati is poo-pooing the entire issue. Unfortunately that little A++ is heading for an A or even a minus. Give it 6 months. And the party IS over. Cincinnati won’t be a player again until 2010. Watch.
Meanwhile, what I want to know is just when will Lib Mutual and their tribe get theirs? They are buying busines – no underwriting – across the countryside. AND NOW they are even starting to compete against each other! We just bowed out on an account that expired at $175,000. We were at $110,000 and another agent had Indiana at $95,000. LIBERTY was at $85,000 – and the last I heard the other agent was trying to reload with Indiana?? Just who in the heck are these people trying to kid??? Now they are even underselling each other?
Cincinnati has much lower turnover than any other company I know. And much better than the like of Hartford, Zurich etc. Many employees stay with Cincy for their entire careers. And most are there for a substantial time. Maybe it wasn’t the employer, but the employee that was the problem (check mirror).
Ahem. check that. The employees stay at cincinnati becuase they have nowhere else to go. Kind of like the employees in Sun Prairie, WI or Westfield, OH or West Bend or Pekin, IL or Frankenmuth, MI. if you spend 25 years there, just where do you think you’ll go? They can treat you like crud. And most do.
Congratulations to CIC for finally getting what is coming to them. Their agents may be in support and proud to represent them now, but let’s see where they stand when their ratings fall. Selling would be the best thing that the Schiff family could do to help those employees who don’t get a 401K to at least recoup some of their stock losses. I hear Liberty is still looking to buy. Who’s to say that the Fairfield CIC complex won’t have a Lady Liberty standing proudly infront one day.
I used to work at CIC until recently and still literally have nightmares about returning to that place for employment. The PL VP, Helmers, is one of the biggest jerks in the company. He has his little groupies that intimidates into submission.
I have also read here and know that CIC treats their agency base like royalty…that is very true. The commission structure is awesome and the yearly trips for agents is five star treatment. If only they treated their employees as well.
I’m not happy to see the stock go down so low but the company needs to think about what makes them successful and that is their employees.
We are also proud to represent Cincinnati, as are all their agents. They are highly selective in choosing the agencies to represent them, so I can understand some of the reaction from competitors. Loyalty and commitment are real to them and with us. They are not sophisticated underwriters but look at their combined ratios over the past 10+ years – always superior to the competion. They are having some portfolio problems now, but they will make the necessary adjustments. One thing you can count on – they will not over-react.
I’m glad the agents can reap the benefits of the hard work of the underwriters and staff of CIC. You can go on your President Club all expense paid trips. You are loyal because of what CIC gives you…I get that. BUT…
Agents should walk one day in the shoes of CIC underwriters and you can then tell them to look in the mirror and see who is the problem…not them.
aren’t companies reinsured for these cat losses
As a competitor, Cincinnati is a great company and one that is well-respected. However, Cincinnati has almost ignored automation and their business model, while once the best, is showing age. To ignore automation and rating sophistication for so long will be difficult to recover from.
Kudos to the agents with Cincy…always been a fan of the company and very agent-friendly company with great people at the company level.
I do have some concerns as I had heard here in IL the rumor that ERIE may be looking to buy Cincy…anyone else hear this?
we are a mid-sized agency in arkansas and are proud to have cincy as our top carrier. sure , mistakes have been made – but they are correctable. the insurance and distribution side is very strong. the investment allocation will be corrected now over time. cincy has been loyal to us – we WILL be loyal to them.
Yes, I’ve heard that Erie is looking at the opportunity too. It will likley be an aggressive offer that the Cincy can’t ignore because of all of their current problems.
it should be announced before Christmas
what should?
I believe he was referring to ERIE…I had heard the rumor, but I guess it has teeth. WOW!
1. B-CAuse we are the last ones left. Yes we have survived 10 years through kiss arses and senior management that has the combined IQ of a 3 year old after drinking ginko biloba…and now finally have a management position that a salaraaay of an entry level dish washer at Montgomery Inn
2. Because our underwritin is sooo eazy. All we do is look here in dis here manual and ita tells us what we need to do. We don’t eeven hafto think about anyting. It is so awsome.
3. Our CSRs take 500 smoke breaks a day. They are full time smokers and partime processers. Everyonce in a while they do this thing called work. Then the beestest thing is when they are behind in processing, they make these here underwriters come in on the weekends and not the CSRs that cause these here problems.
4. We like to play on the internet and dez here fools let us without no penalties. No high speed at home in my trailor so I’z a love it.
5. We promote pomisscuwity geezal petes between JP and JB they have gotten more interal BJ’s than a vegas call girl squad. We also promote people that have had nummmerous affairs and external fun huddy hahaha
6. yeah we treat our agents good on the outside but we pay our here employees squat because they are whats cauld replacable. They are likke gerbils that just fit until they are ready to go onto the next wheel.
7. oops only seven..but just like cincy i always will let you down when it comes to numbers, rates, and teknologeee. But weeze real smart and our agents like us because we nice and we like them…unless…..
Notice that I am an “Agent in Cincinnati”, not a Cincinnati Agent!
There is as reason for my making this distinction. That’s because while it is not uncommon to find many agencies proudly representing CIC in other cities and towns, there are only a handful of agencies in the Cincinnati area that represent CIC. I’ve heard various rumors over the years as to why this is, but it is my understanding that the Schiff family wanted it that way – and any agent who seeks appointment in this geographic area must have the blessing of all the other CIC agents – which would have about as much chance of happening as a Flat Income Tax(can you say “restraint of trade”?).
This goes directly to the perception in these parts of CIC and their licensed agents. CIC is a TOUGH competitor around here and makes no bones about throwing it’s weight around. Plus, due to their exclusive representation, Cincinnati area CIC agents are often times rather arrogant – as they see themselves as “The Chosen Ones”. These traits have made the other agents in Cincinnati want to dance with glee when this news was released. Even postings on this site have mentioned that CIC is finally going to have it’s day of reckoning!
Is this a case of jealousy? Are we like kids on the school playground watching the class bully be escorted to the principal’s office?
Well, yes I suppose those of us who are not CIC agents (the “unclean” in the local Cincinnati area) are in a way.
Stock insurers serve two masters – policyholders and shareholders – and it is not often that their interests coincide. For many years CIC was able to balance the interests of both in a way that made other insurers green with envy. But now the game has changed.
Can CIC like the old Timex commercial, “take a lickin’ and keep on tickin'”? I think they will, but one thing that might need to change is CIC’s posture toward agency appointments in their own backyard and their attitude that they are the INVINCIBLE Cincinnati Insurance Company.
Being a Cincinnati Agent I am very concerned about the direction of the company. When I was growing up if an existing client would go shopping with a Cincy Dec Page in hand other agents would not even quote against it. The only policies we ever loose in our agency seems to come from Cincinnati. They have horrible claims services, their rates are terrible on personal lines, their technology is the worst. We have very recently taken on Travelers because it is inevitable Cincinnati Claims is going to upset our biggest client and we needed a backup to move this account. It is funny agents that don’t have Cincinnati really want them and I as a Cincinnati Agent there is not a day goes by where I wish I didn’t have them. Our claims adjuster has upset 4 of our clients just this year, we pass it on to middle management and they don’t address it. I have a saying I live by: If you can’t work with them, you work around them.
How about settling claims fairly? Does anyone consider the reason for insurance to begin with?