How is that a sad response when you seem to point out the alleged falsehood of the stats that were given and you go and correct them? I know anyone in there right mind denounces drunk drivers but you make it sound like drunk drivers are the victims thats all.
You both have valid pointssto-p being jackasses in ignoring the others validity to comment. LOL I agree the facts are distorted from MADD such is the nature of graphs, charts and figures Chuck’s statistics lie. Allan – it does appear that LOL is touting Drunk Driving but I give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s harping on “misleading” facts. I’m awaiting the day we promote stats from DAMM (Drunks Against Madd Mothers) which support the fact that they are better drivers with afew drinks in them, than they are sober.
11,993 fatalities caused by drunk drivers….FALSE…..The common issue is the drunk driver in all cases, not the resultant fatality. I agree the NHTSA FARS database “claims” these as all caused by drunk drivers. An outright lie people become hoodwinked by.
The facts:
1. Your drunk and die in a single vehicle accident, you’re not an innocent victim of a DD.
2. Single vehicle crashes produce 0 innocent victims of drunk drivers.
3. Why are we counting total fatalities? You need to have a driver in order to have a crash involving alcohol. DD laws are passed against drivers, not passengers. 11,993 artificially inflates the issue.
So having analyzed the FARS database ad nauseum, here are the facts related to drunk DRIVERS and death.
In 2008, there were 50,186 DRIVERs involved in a crash resulting in at least one fatality.
-7,139 of those drivers crashed in single vehicle accidents.
-43,047 drivers were in multi-vehicle crashes, which create potential innocent victims
How many drivers were at or above .08? 2,440 drivers in ALL OF 2008. A far cry from the inflated 11,993 the MADD run NHTSA touts.
How many of the 2,440 were over .12? 83%
Funny thing is you can’t claim all 2,440 were at fault because of some measurable amount of a substance in their blood either.
MADD and NHTSA have a neo-prohibitionist guided agenda.
It’s time to take away Chcuk Hurley’s 250k annual salary and decommission MADD.
PS >>>> What happened to the 40,607 sober drivers that killed?
Not to mention the fact that even if the numbers are correct for both years, it’s much much much more likely that it’s a statistical anomaly than a causal relationship between DUI crackdowns and the number of drunk driver crashes.
Allan, let me phrase my response this way. Being against MADD and their misguided agendas in no way makes a person pro drunk driving.
Many people are hoodwinked by the false statistics being spewed by the MADD-run NHTSA. I happen to have taken it upon myself to prove how big the lies MADD and the NHTSA are communicating to us.
You’re odds of being killed by the evil drunk driver are so nominal that MADD has to use inflated statistics and the liberal media to spread propaganda to the country. Propaganda that is taken hook, line and sinker without any validation whatsoever.
So what about the 40k+ inattentive, sober and speeding drivers doing the majority of the killing in 2008? Should the repeat offender speeders now be excessively fined and be serving jail time since they are the majority killers on the roads?
The only benefit these laws serve is to line MADD and municipalities pockets for committing a moving violation that 99.99999% of the time has no victim.
MADD is about Vengeance and Greed. Period. Hope that helps you understand my position.
I don’t support drunk driving. I also don’t support these draconian laws that do nothing to save lives. The DUI economy is currently running at 18-20 billion annually. Did you know that?
I agree Allan. Drunk kills, drunk serves jail time. Sober kills, sober serves jail time. So MADD pushes jail for repeat offenders that don’t kill anyone. A DD get’s a lifetime record to be used against them down the road.
The MADD victim has just been arrested for an offense with no victim. Speeding is an offense with no victim. Should we be locking up speeders that repeat more than 2x in their lifetime?
Both activities are choices made by drivers that MIGHT result in death. Based on the statistics, it seems the repeat speeders that don’t kill are getting off with a slap on the wrist.
Do you see the hypocrisy of those that claim responsible drinkers are worse than speeders? I do.
It’s time to scale back this ridiculous prohibitionist legislation. It’s a big waste of taxpayers dollars.
Holy damned lies, LOL! It is one thing to address a tragedy, it is another to inflate it. It just goes to show that statistics are meaningless without interpretation and that interpretation is also subjective. I agree that Hurley and MADD are actually trying to PROHIBIT alcohol not just drunk driving; their track record speaks for itself. Same goes for the anti-abortion folks and the evangelical lobbies. None of these groups are content to keep the public informed; they want to make decisions for us instead. No wonder no one takes personal responsiblity and accountability for their actions; the “I know better” crowd is there to “protect” us.
LOL, thanks for taking the time to flesh out your case. I for one agree. Its’ not that I am in favor of drunk driving but that it is the only group being targeted. We let so many other negligent drivers off the hook, because….why? they were sober when they crashed? It is about getting revenge, pure and simple. and what gets me is that many of these drunk drivers are breadwinners, family oriented, made a mistake but we punish them so severely that they loose their jobs, livelihoods etc. There are other innocents who suffer becuase of the “draconian” measures put in place. And to make matters worse, MADD campaigns have created laws that tied the hands of judges who can no longer craft a sentence to fit the individual; everyone gets tarred with the same asphalt!
As MADD members are victims, they obviously have created a new class of victim. Victims of bad MADD backed legislation. Victims of MADD. With over 1.5m drivers arrested annually, the victims of MADD just keep piling up. Where are the laws to protect citizens from MADD vengeance run amuck?
Legislators fall into that black and white category of “if you don’t support MADD”, you’re obviously pro drunk driving. MADD has pandering legislators by the short hairs.
Batman,
The article only mentions Chuck one time and what it cites is true facts. Why must you come on here and slander these good people that are only trying to make a positive difference in this cruel world. If you like to toss a few brewskys down, call a cab from the bar or walk home. I hope you never have a few too many and try to drive home. We need much tougher laws to save precious innocent lives. Stay off the road this Christmas season after you’ve been to the bar!!!
I understand how the stats can be inflated to prove MADD’s point along with the rest of what you are saying. But, do you think the family that just lost their kid to a drunk driver gives a rats a$$ about that?
I think that excessive speeders that are sober and take someone out should have the same punishment as drunk drivers though.
I don’t want to get into a debate that will not satisfy either of us; you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. Let me say that the MADD campaign has “worked” for me personally in that my wife and I never go out to eat because of the very stringent enforcement program they have in my county. But I can only say that while I feel sad for those who have lost someone due to a drunk driver, I only personally know one of them, my niece; she and several friends were bar hopping to celebrate a 21st birthday. Of the five in the car, only the driver survived and he will get his. On the other hand, I know 17 others who are now on some type of probation or served some time, along with probation, for DUI….all of them lost their jobs, all of them lost their licenses and now their spouses must find work to help support their families….my concern is that we black-balled a lot of people, and affected a lot of families just to get the pound of flesh that MADD demands….and it is all too easy for police departments to fund the over time to catch these “criminals’ when they can’ stop the rash of burglaries and robberies in our area. Why is it so easy to rob a convenience store? because the cops are busy running a DUI checkpoint instead….now who should be protected and served? all I want is some common sense application of sentencing, that’s all. to make one group feel better, we nail another group instead of find a way to protect both.
From LOL’s comment, I feel that they are in favor of true stats, and looking at stats in the right context, not that they are pro-drunk driving, or against harsh drunk driving laws.
You are correct in that everyone is entitled to your opinion even though yours is seriously flawed. Sorry to hear about your neice. So you and your wife can’t enjoy a night out together. Either watch you intake, have a designated driver or purchase a cheap portable breathalizer to monitor your level. Your county can’t be any more stringent than any other county. There is no comparison between a small time burglary and a DUI death. None. If it meant having 15 people blackballed that are drunk saved one life then I am all in favor of that trade-off. I want to thank you for staying home instead of running out partying and then putting others in danger.
I understand some of what LOL is saying here, but hang on for a minute. How is it that a one vehicle collision involving a drunk doesn’t count as part of the nation’s stats?
If you agree it’s not OK for a guy to get wasted and drive risking other’s lives, can you assert that if he falls off the road and only kills himself he doesn’t count?
Would he count if he has no insurance and hangs on in an intensive care unit costing us all a couple of hundred grand before he dies?
What drunk driving fatal statistics indicate is the amount of drunk driving trips made in a population.
A drunk drifts off the road, comes back, over-corrects and cuts two lanes of traffic. The difference between a multi car, multi fatality “innocent victim” collision and a one vehicle rollover killing the lone occupant driver is what? Bad luck?
How is that a sad response when you seem to point out the alleged falsehood of the stats that were given and you go and correct them? I know anyone in there right mind denounces drunk drivers but you make it sound like drunk drivers are the victims thats all.
You both have valid pointssto-p being jackasses in ignoring the others validity to comment. LOL I agree the facts are distorted from MADD such is the nature of graphs, charts and figures Chuck’s statistics lie. Allan – it does appear that LOL is touting Drunk Driving but I give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s harping on “misleading” facts. I’m awaiting the day we promote stats from DAMM (Drunks Against Madd Mothers) which support the fact that they are better drivers with afew drinks in them, than they are sober.
Perhaps it’s that people don’t have the money to drink outside of their homes these days.
11,993 fatalities caused by drunk drivers….FALSE…..The common issue is the drunk driver in all cases, not the resultant fatality. I agree the NHTSA FARS database “claims” these as all caused by drunk drivers. An outright lie people become hoodwinked by.
The facts:
1. Your drunk and die in a single vehicle accident, you’re not an innocent victim of a DD.
2. Single vehicle crashes produce 0 innocent victims of drunk drivers.
3. Why are we counting total fatalities? You need to have a driver in order to have a crash involving alcohol. DD laws are passed against drivers, not passengers. 11,993 artificially inflates the issue.
So having analyzed the FARS database ad nauseum, here are the facts related to drunk DRIVERS and death.
In 2008, there were 50,186 DRIVERs involved in a crash resulting in at least one fatality.
-7,139 of those drivers crashed in single vehicle accidents.
-43,047 drivers were in multi-vehicle crashes, which create potential innocent victims
How many drivers were at or above .08? 2,440 drivers in ALL OF 2008. A far cry from the inflated 11,993 the MADD run NHTSA touts.
How many of the 2,440 were over .12? 83%
Funny thing is you can’t claim all 2,440 were at fault because of some measurable amount of a substance in their blood either.
MADD and NHTSA have a neo-prohibitionist guided agenda.
It’s time to take away Chcuk Hurley’s 250k annual salary and decommission MADD.
PS >>>> What happened to the 40,607 sober drivers that killed?
Not to mention the fact that even if the numbers are correct for both years, it’s much much much more likely that it’s a statistical anomaly than a causal relationship between DUI crackdowns and the number of drunk driver crashes.
From the context of your post and with all your stats, it almost sounds like you’re in favor or in defense of drunk drivers.
Sorry Allan…I’m used to those that don’t understand both sides of an issue leading off with that comment.
What next? I’m a drunk and a repeat offending drunk driver? Pretty sad response Allan.
Allan, let me phrase my response this way. Being against MADD and their misguided agendas in no way makes a person pro drunk driving.
Many people are hoodwinked by the false statistics being spewed by the MADD-run NHTSA. I happen to have taken it upon myself to prove how big the lies MADD and the NHTSA are communicating to us.
You’re odds of being killed by the evil drunk driver are so nominal that MADD has to use inflated statistics and the liberal media to spread propaganda to the country. Propaganda that is taken hook, line and sinker without any validation whatsoever.
So what about the 40k+ inattentive, sober and speeding drivers doing the majority of the killing in 2008? Should the repeat offender speeders now be excessively fined and be serving jail time since they are the majority killers on the roads?
The only benefit these laws serve is to line MADD and municipalities pockets for committing a moving violation that 99.99999% of the time has no victim.
MADD is about Vengeance and Greed. Period. Hope that helps you understand my position.
I don’t support drunk driving. I also don’t support these draconian laws that do nothing to save lives. The DUI economy is currently running at 18-20 billion annually. Did you know that?
I agree Allan. Drunk kills, drunk serves jail time. Sober kills, sober serves jail time. So MADD pushes jail for repeat offenders that don’t kill anyone. A DD get’s a lifetime record to be used against them down the road.
The MADD victim has just been arrested for an offense with no victim. Speeding is an offense with no victim. Should we be locking up speeders that repeat more than 2x in their lifetime?
Both activities are choices made by drivers that MIGHT result in death. Based on the statistics, it seems the repeat speeders that don’t kill are getting off with a slap on the wrist.
Do you see the hypocrisy of those that claim responsible drinkers are worse than speeders? I do.
It’s time to scale back this ridiculous prohibitionist legislation. It’s a big waste of taxpayers dollars.
Holy damned lies, LOL! It is one thing to address a tragedy, it is another to inflate it. It just goes to show that statistics are meaningless without interpretation and that interpretation is also subjective. I agree that Hurley and MADD are actually trying to PROHIBIT alcohol not just drunk driving; their track record speaks for itself. Same goes for the anti-abortion folks and the evangelical lobbies. None of these groups are content to keep the public informed; they want to make decisions for us instead. No wonder no one takes personal responsiblity and accountability for their actions; the “I know better” crowd is there to “protect” us.
LOL, thanks for taking the time to flesh out your case. I for one agree. Its’ not that I am in favor of drunk driving but that it is the only group being targeted. We let so many other negligent drivers off the hook, because….why? they were sober when they crashed? It is about getting revenge, pure and simple. and what gets me is that many of these drunk drivers are breadwinners, family oriented, made a mistake but we punish them so severely that they loose their jobs, livelihoods etc. There are other innocents who suffer becuase of the “draconian” measures put in place. And to make matters worse, MADD campaigns have created laws that tied the hands of judges who can no longer craft a sentence to fit the individual; everyone gets tarred with the same asphalt!
As MADD members are victims, they obviously have created a new class of victim. Victims of bad MADD backed legislation. Victims of MADD. With over 1.5m drivers arrested annually, the victims of MADD just keep piling up. Where are the laws to protect citizens from MADD vengeance run amuck?
Legislators fall into that black and white category of “if you don’t support MADD”, you’re obviously pro drunk driving. MADD has pandering legislators by the short hairs.
Batman,
The article only mentions Chuck one time and what it cites is true facts. Why must you come on here and slander these good people that are only trying to make a positive difference in this cruel world. If you like to toss a few brewskys down, call a cab from the bar or walk home. I hope you never have a few too many and try to drive home. We need much tougher laws to save precious innocent lives. Stay off the road this Christmas season after you’ve been to the bar!!!
I understand how the stats can be inflated to prove MADD’s point along with the rest of what you are saying. But, do you think the family that just lost their kid to a drunk driver gives a rats a$$ about that?
I think that excessive speeders that are sober and take someone out should have the same punishment as drunk drivers though.
I don’t want to get into a debate that will not satisfy either of us; you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. Let me say that the MADD campaign has “worked” for me personally in that my wife and I never go out to eat because of the very stringent enforcement program they have in my county. But I can only say that while I feel sad for those who have lost someone due to a drunk driver, I only personally know one of them, my niece; she and several friends were bar hopping to celebrate a 21st birthday. Of the five in the car, only the driver survived and he will get his. On the other hand, I know 17 others who are now on some type of probation or served some time, along with probation, for DUI….all of them lost their jobs, all of them lost their licenses and now their spouses must find work to help support their families….my concern is that we black-balled a lot of people, and affected a lot of families just to get the pound of flesh that MADD demands….and it is all too easy for police departments to fund the over time to catch these “criminals’ when they can’ stop the rash of burglaries and robberies in our area. Why is it so easy to rob a convenience store? because the cops are busy running a DUI checkpoint instead….now who should be protected and served? all I want is some common sense application of sentencing, that’s all. to make one group feel better, we nail another group instead of find a way to protect both.
From LOL’s comment, I feel that they are in favor of true stats, and looking at stats in the right context, not that they are pro-drunk driving, or against harsh drunk driving laws.
You are correct in that everyone is entitled to your opinion even though yours is seriously flawed. Sorry to hear about your neice. So you and your wife can’t enjoy a night out together. Either watch you intake, have a designated driver or purchase a cheap portable breathalizer to monitor your level. Your county can’t be any more stringent than any other county. There is no comparison between a small time burglary and a DUI death. None. If it meant having 15 people blackballed that are drunk saved one life then I am all in favor of that trade-off. I want to thank you for staying home instead of running out partying and then putting others in danger.
I understand some of what LOL is saying here, but hang on for a minute. How is it that a one vehicle collision involving a drunk doesn’t count as part of the nation’s stats?
If you agree it’s not OK for a guy to get wasted and drive risking other’s lives, can you assert that if he falls off the road and only kills himself he doesn’t count?
Would he count if he has no insurance and hangs on in an intensive care unit costing us all a couple of hundred grand before he dies?
What drunk driving fatal statistics indicate is the amount of drunk driving trips made in a population.
A drunk drifts off the road, comes back, over-corrects and cuts two lanes of traffic. The difference between a multi car, multi fatality “innocent victim” collision and a one vehicle rollover killing the lone occupant driver is what? Bad luck?