…that labeled you a socialist, because you are one by your own admission.
Socialism: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods or services. (Merriam Webster)
The vast majority of socialists I know are very intelligent. I prefer capitalism to solve problems and you prefer government. That makes me a capitalist and you a socialist, that is not name calling, but rather using words and their definitions correctly. From your posts I think you are very intelligent I just disagree with your(government aka socialist) solutions.
Who usually starts the name calling on these posts…certainly it is 90% pof the time the more “right” leaning, shall I say fpor fear of starting another round of name calling. I am sick of Obama bashing, liberal bashing and you allw wrapping yourself in the Consititution and the American flag to the exclsuipon of everyone else. glad this isn’t Salem in the 1600’s….
Silly Larry, we are ALL taxed to pay for government AND corporate excess (or didn’t you read the article about how 10 bil will be a legitimate tax write off for BP)…that is money that the collective public will not see in tax revenues…so don’t be so naive. We ALL work hard and some of the hardest working people I know are the poorest and have gotten the rawest deals. Stop being so smug…but for the grace of God…
Realist, no, not envy, but very sad that this country is so polarized. These blogs do little to restore my faith that we can continue to be civil to each other. While we may be granted the freedom to say what we want, with that freedom, as with all, goes a responsibility that some of you all fail to even think about when you post your hateful little snipes. You are not clever, you are not participating in meaningful debate. Spare me.
Cassandra, will not see the light until it is too late. She is a devout Liberal. Liberals always think that they are right and open minded. when in fact they are very closed minded and selfish. It is not the government or any man who will dictate our fate, but God. Liberals have a problem with God because they want to be our God. They see themselves as good caring individuals, able to solve all of the worlds problems if the rest of us would just listen to them and follow their instructions.
Liberals believe in the Government more than they believe in God. Therefore, a God fearing person will never truly win an argument with them because they put themselves on a pedestal above God. They can solve all of your problems if they can just get total control of your property and your life.
Cassandra is angry because we petty God fearing individuals dare to question her liberal friends and politicians. Who are we to question the great and powerful, all knowing community leader Obama.
Tony…you say this now. Wait til you lose your health insurance due to job loss and get a pre existing condition that precludes you from securing private insurance. Since you deride this bill, I am sure that you will not seek to collect Medicaid or Medicare if such situation should arise for you since this is yet another intrusion of “big government into your free market life…and you will trust that private health insurers will then step up be happy to cover you so you do not lose your house, your bank accounts, and whatever else you have been working for for perhaps decades. I envy your faith in the private system.
Nice to know YOU won’t be a burden to the taxpayers.
So, the VA Attorney General and Govenor like to see more people denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions? The availability of coverage to youngsters on their parents plan up to age 26 is a bad thing even when the insureds will be charged? Making coverage available to people who previously had none is a bad thing? Don’t give me the socialist garbage. The private insurance companies made out well in this bill. There is no public option or single payer system either. Why do republicans continue to hammer on poor folks? Because they can. The “have nots” have no voice and they are an easy target. Opposing this progressive legislation provides the illusion that they are standing up for the tax payers. But, remember: MEDICARE PART D WAS THE LARGEST EXPANSION OF GOVERNEMENT HEALTH CARE AND IT WAS PASSED BY A REPUBLICAN CONTROLLED SENATE/CONGRESS AND WHILE A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT WAS IN OFFICE. Oh by the way, Part D. is a mess and has done more to abuse the dificit than any health care expansion. Virginia’s action is nothing but grandstanding at the expense of the “have nots.”
ObamaCare is just another step in total Socialsim and they are already working on a Public Option so that government, who does such a terrible job at every other thing they administer will take over our lives and decide who lives and who dies. Can you say death panels? I hope all the states in opposition to this crime of a bill will join Virginia and get this monstrocity repealed or defunded.
IF OBAMACARE IS SOOO GOOD, WHY DO CANACAN’S COME HERE FOR SERIOUS CARE AND WHY ARE CANADA AND ENGLAND CHANGING THEIR SYSTEMS AND WHY IS GREECE BANKRUPT? THE SUPPORTERS HAVE NOT GIVEN ME AN HONEST ANSWER.
Everyone seems to be missing the point. The question is a constitutional one… Does the Federal Government have the enumerated power under the constitution to impose a mandatory Health Coverage requirement on the citizenry. I would stipulate that it does not; many might disagree, but the decision of the judge to allow the suit to move forward was entirely appropriate. There used to be a time in this country whereby congress would first ask whether something was constitutional before moving forward. Today, it appears as if they view the constitution in disgust.
THE CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION IS A SETTLED ISSUE TO MOST THINKERS. OBAMACARE IS AN OVER REACH! AND SHOULD BE, OR ELSE THE FEDERAL GOV’T WOULD BE MANAGING OUR HEALTHCARE LIKE THEY ARE MANAGING OUR SOUTHERNBOARDER.
JR. Who is they? THEY who tried to pass a bill with a public option backed off on that in order to get this thing passed. There is no public option and probably never will be. Do you read the papers or watch the news or do you just stick with FOX? Death Panels, really? Are you seriously trotting out that piece of trash of an argument that even semi-sane republicans admit is a farce? Do you have a brain in your head or are you currently sitting on it? The insanity of your argument and your complete lack of understanding of the issue is indicitive of where the political discourse has gone in this country. You do your side a major diservice. It is best that you keep quiet.
Emotion seems to be the riding factor for many supporting this farce of “health care”. “You don’t care about others” “You want others to die” “You are selfish” “You wait until you get a pre-existing condition” Talk about fear-mongering.
I have a pre-exisiting condition that affects my heart, lungs, joints, and blood clotting ability. I do not support universal healthcare. I don’t believe people against it are against me. I do not believe those against ObamaCare are selfish and want me to die. That is just not logical nor does rhetoric like that allow for intelligent debate.
Joan: Sounds like you have never been denied due to your pre-existing condition. Come back to us when you have. It’s not fear mongering. Those espousing the evils of this and “death panels” are plenty guilty of fear mongering. This is about reality. You either have a chance for coverage or you don’t. I’ll bet you that the opposers are safely covered.
Why would I lie? That is an obnoxious assessment just because I don’t fit the theory being espoused.
I have group insurance via my company. I purposely find a company to work for that provides it. Even when I was a waitress for a restaurant, I had group insurance. At the gym where I taught aerobics, group insurance was offered.
The death panels comment being used is due to what takes place in Europe. There are several articles and statistics that show they determine whether or not a person is “worth” the procedure needed to save their life. This is not fear-mongering. This is fact.
The answer is not arguing using emotion and snarky comments about others or their comments. Everyone in this country seems to think the “other side” is hateful, nasty, etc- but they don’t see their own comments and reactions as such. So much hate being spewed back and forth and no solutions. It is rather disgusting.
Is that it does nothing to lower the cost of health insurance. People can still bring lawsuits against thier doctors because the doctor gave them a cross-eyed look. Forcing insurers to cover pre-ex conditions is just going to make everyone else’s rates go up. I say, address the reason why insurance is so high (tort reform), THEN address the pre-existing condition issue.
We need tort reform. How about a simple catastrophic plan that citizens can buy at a reasonable price. No frills. Just the coverage for cancer, stroke, heart attacks, etc. – major, catastrophic illnesses. People need to quit going to the doctor for every hangnail, and worrying about a tiny co-pay (some think $50 is too high)! How about insurance carriers offer coverage for plastic surgery, etc. at higher premiums. Health insurance needs to be innovative. Also, most carriers cover pre-existing conditions after one year. If you lost your job, the Feds are paying 60% of your COBRA, so there is really little room for excuses.
Receive layoff notice; lose your health insurance the day of your lay-of; find out your ex – boss is fighting you for unemployment benefits by telling the bureau you were fired for misconduct. This is happening in about 20% of all layoffs!
Have your Unemployment Benefits stopped for months and months and months pending your day in court before the magistrate.
Hopefully you can provide documentation to prove you were laid off through no fault of your own and did not commit wrongful misconduct and get fired for it.
All the while, there will be no money coming in while you frantically search for a new job – best of luck if you are over 50!
Check out cost for health insurance on your own. What, you are over 50 and have a couple of minor pre-existing conditions?? Okay– fork out $800-$1200 a month for individual insurance or go bare and pray a lot.
Start selling your possessions on E-Bay and tap into your retirement savings for emergencies – like buying food, paying for shelter and emergency doctors and dentists visits- hopefully your car or home won’t need major repairs!
…And how do you figure that ObamaCare is going to lower your cost of insurance? Sure pre-existing conditions cannot be a factor for not insuring you, but where is the “free lunch?” Just look at the health care industry. Large buildings. Lots of well educated (thank God) employees. State of the Art equipment that needs maintenance. Where do you propose the savings are going to come from?
Lets see I thought the Constitution was written to protect the States from interfering in their business and protect individuals from excessive government involvement in our lives?
Look at the process when this was created, you cannot tell me that anything was well thought out! It was get it done and payoff the Doctors, Big Pharm, Lawyers, Insurance industry, and again it will be put squarely on our backs when all is said and done. Of course making someone buy a product to protect themselves in unconstitutional. And taking over an industry which provides these services is also unconstitutional. This general wellfare clause is a stretch at best. Just use your common sense. Why are the progressives trying to ruin our country financially? NEVER LET A CRISIS GO TO WASTE! (Rahm Emanuel)
Do you want to know what the difference is between a conservative and a progressive is? A conservative knows what is best for themselves and that the greatness of this country lies within its people and the decisions they make. A progressive thinks that all power emanates from the benevolent government. I will take Adam Smith’s view of the “Invisible Hand” over some controlling bureacrat anyday. Did I have any typos???
And just how is that my problem. Liberals seem to think their problems are the responsibility of everyone else. If you get sick or if you die it is not my problem. I have my own family to care for and providing you with my property deprives my family. The government has no right to steal from me to give to you or anyone else. If I choose to give, that is a virtue and will lift me up in the eyes of God and my fellow man. If I am robbed of my possessions whether it be by a corrupt government or a corrupt individual, my rights will have been violated and my family deprived.
You are not my responsibility and you have no right to steal my property.
Death and sickness are a part of life and evolution. We as a species evolve by the softening of our hearts and our generosity to our fellow man. Stealing from your fellowman does not soften his heart.
Only those who know and love you care about your problems. If you are consistently trying to steal from others to secure your own existence, I promise you the list of people who care for you will be greatly diminished. The government is run by the people that you see everyday and they couldn’t care less about your welfare. I suggest that you stop begging and prepare to meet your maker with dignity.
Right on Chag! The farce to their story!! But too much COMMON SENSE for the Liberals (“it’s not MY fault, so you bail me out, to hell with you or your family”).
Obama Care is so good that Congress excludes themselves from this wonderful piece of two thousand page piece of garbage???? Social Security is so good Congress excludes themselves???
Think of what Congress is missing??? They all have pre-existing conditions in Washington. Lack of keeping their eye on the ball!!
I believe the states challenging the health care have a very strong case, and that the U.S. Supreme court will ultimately find that the U.S. government cannot compel individuals to purchase a private product simply because they’ve reached a certain age.
But then what? The courts will have found that the government cannot enforce the fundamental condition–universal participation–needed to sustain a private market in health insurance that is not hopelessly distorted by adverse selection.
The current system is already collapsing, principally for two reasons:
1. The decline of large employers; and
2. The fact that all health insurers, even the most benevolent non-profits, serve their members best by avoiding people with serious health conditions.
If the suits succeed, as I believe they will, even more care will be funded through the public sector by tax money. Opponents of “government-run health care” will end up being the ones instigating a mostly single-payer system.
If I am denied, then I pay out of pocket. It is my responsibility- not yours. I wouldn’t expect you or anyone else to pay for my care. But, that is how I was raised.
If you do the research, there are panels in Europe that determine what care people can/can’t get based on cost and “worth” based on age. But, you’d have to do the research.
The “Liberals” never stop to find out which of their ideas may find merit with Conservatives and their evil Twin “Progressives” won’t stop short of total domination. (How do you spell National Socialism?)
If you think “death panels” are hyperbole, you forget the Golden Rule of the Dark Side: “HE WHO HAS THE GOLD, MAKES THE RULE!”
Surely, you’ve heard the story about when the amendment to allow an income tax was being debated the opposition wanted a cap of 5% to asure the assessment would not become burdensome. They were told their fears were unfounded and exagerated. Not long after that, Lord Roosevelt had the top rate over 85% and wanted to push it higher.
I don’t blame the President though; he’s just doing what the puppet masters tell him to do.
So, the states can force you to buy stuff but not the feds…like auto insurance for example? Is this not govt “stealing” from the likes of poor Chag, who is so independent?
The private insurance companies have failed to provide a solution for the unintentionally uninsured. although I would beg to differ alot on what their definition of some pre existing conditions are, it is not their job to take on unprofitable insureds and some pre existing conditions are exactly that. A government plan, therefore, is the only way to provide this necessity and so be it. The states are not going to so the fed needs to. Pure and simple.
The death panel issue is totally ridiculous….private insurance companies have their own “death panels” now, so what’s the difference? That you think that there will be no rationing of healthcare in the future is also very nearsighted; there is now. And there sholuld be some rationing in certain instances, when reasonless surgery and tests are given to trerminally ill patients, when neonates with not a chance are provided with heroic measures because the parent(s) cannot make the decision, etc., etc., etc.
These are all issues that will need to be confronted in the near future. You can stick your heads in the sand if you want, and stand on the rugged individualist model, but you are ultimately doomed…unless you are a billionaire, and then you can buy whatever care you need and the rest be damned.
Grow up. You will pay for others healthcare anyway (you do now), only you will force the recipients to bankrupt themselves before you do. Why? You guys are the first ones to strip Nana of her assets so you can get her into a Medicare paid nusring home, but you begrudge others a resonable chance to finally be able to purchase health insurance.
Joe, I agree with you that the suits will succeed.
However, I don’t agree with your prediction of what will happen afterwards.
I think a new Congress will exist in November and Obama will be voted out in 2012. Before Obama is voted out, I believe the Supreme Court will rule in favor of the states and the health care bill will be thrown out (well at least the part about mandatory purchasing of insurance).
In order to please the people, the newly established Congress will begin working on a new bill that addresses the real problem with health care – the cost of health care.
They will create a bill that places caps on medical malpractice claims, provides more incentives for businesses to cover their employees, and cleans up waste in our current system (specifically with medicare/medicaid and the ability for illegal immigrants to receive free health care).
This in combination with a healthier America will help reduce the cost of health care.
Just as described in Newt’s new book, liberals want to GAME the system and this Chicago thug and his cronies have taken the corrupt Chicago political system to Washington.
Wait until this idiot community organizer who has actually had TWO jobs and never met a payroll himself is thrown out due to fixing elections… That was a felony but HIS justice dept. will not prosecute a black man…
Wait, when this administration is over, this country will be digging out of this mess for decades. The debt and this nut’s spending is totally out of control. Jimmy Carter on steriods. The federal tax rate on $150k will be 78% before this four years is up.
Wait and beg the federal govt. for a free ride. There is NO such thing. We pay, you pay, everyone pays.
Unless, personal responsibility is returned like it should be.
Take care of your needs. I will take care of mine. Mental and physically handicapped get a free ride ON US.
That is IT. The illegals come HERE because we hand out everything if you will complete the paperwork.
Liberals are going bye bye again soon. Can we afford to wait any longer?
So as long as the federal judge agrees with your conservative point of view, they are a great judge and it isn’t “judicial activism”? I’ve always wondered why we don’t call it this when a conservative judge makes a ruling that seems to overstep their boundaries?
Actually, it is fear mongering. The “death panels” are actually in teh bill, where a “panel” will be created to determine who gets what, and at what time. In other words, at time of possible death, the panel will have decided what protocols and procedures are allowed and which are not allowed, thereby granting a government beauracrat the ability to determine who lives or dies.
So, a panel to determine who gets life saving care and who does not. Please explain how a “panel” that determines who gets to live or die is not a “death panel”.
Cassandra, You go girl. Not to mention that under private health care, over 40,000 people (Havard study) were estimated to have died due to lack of insurance. Not that’s a REAL death panel!
THe issue is even worse than you posit. If you have read the bill – which there is absoluely no way a “supporter” of this bill has (otherwise, you would no longer support it) – every item is specifically designed to drive health costs skyward. This was done by leftist democrats to punish the populace until they relent and allow for implementation of single-payer.
Think about that. The Democrat Party is purposely trying to victimize this country – killing people and piling unmanageable debt upon us all – until we “come around” and do what they say. These people are truly sick.
And leet us all keep in mind the numerous provisions of this Madoff-Care scam that will drive lawsuits, liningthe pockets of the trial lawyer lobby – all at the expense of Americans and lives.
One has to be a sick individual to be a Democrat these days. This is disgusting.
Mike N. Under the current Medicare program, there are no panels. The decisions near the end of life are entirely up to the family and doctor. The whole “death panel” discussion is a Sister Sarah creation with zero foundation in fact.
You are wrong. If my doctor says I need thet procedure, I get it done, if I agree. The insurance company may cover it, it may not. But currently I get to choose. That will not be the case with this bill. Should the tdeath panels determine the care will not occur…it will not occur.
BTW, your name perfectly matches your input. Cassandra – “a person who prophesies doom or disaster.”
You are right in teh sense the current system does not employ the death panels. However, once again – IF YOU READ THE BILL – they will be enacted, by force of law, due to Obama’s Madoff-Care scam.
Please, stop with the ignorant rants and READ THE BILL. Obviously you have not spent a moment in review. Due to this fact your insights are patently false and make you look foolish. READ THE BILL!
Add to that the cost of paying for illegals healthcare. I live in a farming community, and this time of year there are usually 8-10 hour waiting periods at the emergency room, where many illegals go because they cannot legally be denied care.
Mike, that is the problem- no one for it has really read the bill. Heck, even our Congressmen/women nor the President have read the bill. If you recall, Pelosi said we have to pass it to find out what is in it.
States don’t require everyone to pay for auto insurance and, if you don’t, penalize you through increased taxes. They actually let you buy a car first and then require you to insure it. Apples and Oranges — the constitutional point still stands.
Many of those needing extensive health care abused their bodies throughout their life (smoked, ate too much fast food, did drugs, didn’t excercise and so on).
So it is my duty to pay for their bad decisions? Is it a right for people to live forever?
When did we all get this entitled? I think health care is a privilege. If you live in America, you work for what you have. If you don’t work you should have the privilege.
Also, America has the best doctors in the world – and that is not cheap. If you want low cost health care and low quality care go to another country and stop wining.
Yeah, I KNOW who cassandra was…that’s why I picked the name. DUH
What makes you think that because I am “liberal” on some issues, I am what YOU think is liberal on all?
YES…stop the price gouging on medical procedures and pharmaceuticals….but which Republican president and which Republican Congress didn’t allow the feds to NEGOTIATE bulk npricing for Medicare? Just remeber that little piece of pandering to the Big Pharma interests.
YES…illegals should go home or be sent there and stop the drain on our healthcare, education, criminal, and social services. But they wouldn’t be here is they weren’t being hired….by whom? Small and large businesses who then whine about the cost of healthcare for all AMERICAN CITIZENS.
And you are wrong…it is the same thing if a state forces you vs. the feds…and, bluntly, I think health care for all is more important than making sure someone can sue someone after an auto cradh…but oh well, that’s just because I am a liberal, I suppose.
It’s a good thing some of you did not live in the 1790’s…some of what you are saying is really seditious. You are so worried about some poor slob being able to get a treatment on “your buck”, that you fail to see that we do, in fact, have socialism now…but for the big corps. Bet you all will be just ecstatic when we become and oligarchy and then let’s see what will happen to the Constitution, and your independence, and all the small businessmen.
I hope that a former poster is prescient…that you all will fight this tooth and nail, and when the whole system crashes (or you lose a loved one to the death panels of the private insurors)..we will end up with a single payor system. The law of unintended consequences is awesome…and karma really does exist.
Scrooged – you are confusing unemployment benefits with healthcare benefits, are you not? COBRA protects the healthcare benefits when you are laid off. It has nothing to do with your entitlement to unemployment.
I do think it’s pathetic that employers are contesting former employee claims, but equally pathetic are the unemployed who game the unemployment benefit system to collect benefits so that they don’t have to look for gainful employment. If everyone played fair and by the rules, than costs would be lower, taxes would be lower and more people who need assistance would actually get it.
DG…the point is that if you are not collecting unemployment benefits because employers may be stalling it, then you are not able to pay for COBRA. Do you have any idea how expensive it is for someone over 50? Can you afford 1400/mo with no income coming in?
And just remember, if the feds hadn’t forced the COBRA law, a ton more citizens would be uninsured…
I think you posit a lot more malingerers on unemployment than there are. Didn’t you see the article about 1 job for every job seeker that made all the news stations?
Finally, Cassandra hit the nail on the head.
Cassandra:
“You are so worried about some poor slob being able to get a treatment on “your buck”, that you fail to see that we do, in fact, have socialism now…but for the big corps.”
WOW!!!
We CAPITALISTS don’t like socialism, period.
You see in her heart, she can’t come to terms with herself, and that is that she is a socialist.
You see, the corporations get socialism, so I want some for me too.
To us capitailists, that thinking is the antithesis to what made this country great.
Liberal (or Progressive) is just a fancy name for socialist.
Thanks for the posts Mike N. You are correct in making such a clear point. Today you can have a procedure, regardless if insurance pays. Tomorrow with Obamacare, someone else will decide if you can have the procedure.
Guess who’s going to PAY FOR ALL THE LITIGATION…WE ARE, either at the state level as plantiff or the federal level as defendant…this, on top of the $2.3 plus TRILLION, this rubbish law will cost just to enact over a ten (10) year period! Why couldn’t this “rocket scientist” president and administration devise a plan which preserves the status quo for the overwhelming majority of people who are satisfied with their situation and a viable, alternative scheme for those legal, elegible citizens WHO WANT COVERAGE BUT CAN’T AFFORD IT OR ARE LOCKED OUT DUE TO PRE-EXSISTING MEDICAL CONDITIONS, etc? The answer is simple: Control/Socialism! Wake up America…the European model is headed west and you won’t like it!
There is the problem, Cassandra. Where is this going to be affordable. The guberment, insurance companies, and medical providers are all still going to want to get paid. Who is going to pick up the tab…..us. If this bill was really going to do what they said it would do, I may be more open to it.
As far as the pre-existing conditions….I just don’t get how people live (some people) how are you living pay check to pay check. I’m never going to be rich, but I save and save so when a rainy day comes it doesn’t come crashing down on me.
When I was an adjuster, I got tired of seeing people living in junk houses that they didn’t take care of and then made a claim for a maintenance issue. When I showed up, I would find a new 50″ flat screen, all types of gaming machines for their brats, new SUV’s in the driveway, pure bread dogs. Then these people go out to eat every night for 10 times the cost that they could eat at home. “I didn’t have $200.00 to seal my roof, but I had a grand to buy that TV.
Are these the same people that can afford COBRA or their own insurance plan.
I also thought I heard on the news the other day that some states are starting some of these pre-existing pools. Premiums are going to range from $300.00 to $700.00 per month and now people are mad….cause they thought it was going to be free.
You could make it 50 bucks a month and some people would think it was too much.
I keep reading your posts on here whenever a controversial subject comes up. And I think about commenting back about how mistaken you are. But then I realize that it doesn’t seem that you are capable of independent thought. You must be reading out of the MSNBC, Obama playbook somewhere as I have yet to see an original comment from you. I appears that you just regurgitate the talking points of this administration. Hey, are you really an insurance professional or are you part of a PAC for a union somewhere?
Well, GC, I could say exactly the same thing about you.
So, then, what would you call the sweetheart deal that the Bush adnministration made with Big Pharma to not negotiate drug prices? If you think that socialism is taking from some to give to others, what, then, would you call the pharma deal? Good business practice? I see that as taking from the less politically potent to give to those with more money to spend to get their voices heard via expensive lobbying and big bucks spread around.
Then you wonder why the cost of medical care in this country is so high. Why, then do we consistently pay more in this country than the same drug costs anywhere in the world? yes, yes, yes, I know all about the malpractice and lawsuits, and I AGREE surprise) there need to be curbs…but lawsuits are not the total answer….and then what would you do for those who took VIOXX, Bestra, Avandia, etc., and were hurt by it via failure of full disclosure by the drug companies (who by the way, also do the testing trials) who knew what the side effects really were?
How do you balance all this out in your mind? Please, tell me.
Speaking of the lobbyists (ALL lobbyists) don’t you think to defend our consititutional rights by considering that the inequitable access to our lawmakers as individual citizens vs. large lobbying has taken away the “one man one vote” privilege we all should enjoy? And since when does a “corporation”, a non citizen, have the right to first amendment rights such that with their money and access anonymously pay for political ads? Or was that another masterful decision by the alleged “strict constructionist” majority that sits in the Supreme Court? Talk about legislating from the judiciary…I thought only liberal Supreme Court justices were supposed to do that….Did you like that decision?
Don’t let your antipathy for “liberals” blind you to other realities. I suspect that sometime in the future we will all be in the bunkers together…
I enjoy reading your posts, even when I don’t agree with part or all of them. Unfortunately this topic is very emotional and posters get carried away with expressing feelings more than facts – and I’m not accusing you of that. I’m in complete agree that health care reform is needed but I’m not confident that making people buy something when they don’t want to is the right way to go about it. I do like other parts such as not being able to cancel someone’s insurance, portability and providing access for those with pre existing conditions.It seems to me that the cost of medical care is completely out of control and I’m not certain how the Obamacare reform bill will act to correct that….time will tell. You have often said that government has to stand up and defend those that may otherwise be indefensible. My concern with that (a major concern) is that in spite of all the big talk by dems they do the best job of that, I’m not seeing very good results. I suppose I have been a bit jaded by the failure of all politicians of any party to truly look out for the populace. Seems they are looking out for themselves first as to get reelected. I know someone needs to look out for the average person but unfortunately I don’t think we can legislate that. Have a good evening kiddo and take it easy.
My former office consisted of fewer than 19 people so I was not eligible for COBRA.
Plus if your former boss alleges you were fired for wrongful misconduct, you won’t get COBRA.
OK…I took a “chill pill.” You are right, Gray Cat, it is very emotional because I am sick and tired of being accused of being a socialist just because I believe that the right (yes, right) of being able to purchase affordable health insurance needs to be extended to all. Those that don’t want to purchase it will pay a penalty, because, guess what, you and I will be paying for them if they get a catastrophic illness…so EVERYONE should pay via employer premium pay sharing, govt supported pools, or whatever.
I agree that the healthcare bill does not contain costs…but everytime someone tries to mention a possible way to do that, they are accused of government “death panels’ which isn’t correct. We will ALL have to face some kind of rationing (or purchase privately what we cannot get publicly) regardless of this bill or not and that is a grim reality as we face the demographics that are in motion not only in the US, but look to Europe, Japan, even China….too many oldies and not enough young ones.
I think we would agree on more than disagree if we would just get past the name calling and look for real solutions..or at least a common ground.
We have allowed ourselves too be polarized when, I would suspect, more of the “we, the people” would agree on certain things than not.
We workers not only have to work for ourselves and our families but we have to support other people who don’t, won’t or can’t work. Some, for generations, haven’t worked because they don’t have to, they get what they need from the Gov’t or crime. (We pay a TON of crime claims)
IS THAT FAIR????
IT GOES AGAINST HUMAN NATURE.
I, for one, am TIRED of it and most prople can see it’s just getting WORSE and BHO is making it worse every day.
America was not like this years ago.
History shows this is the wrong path to take, if people studied History.
Actually, this “liberal” who has worked full time for over 40 years, agrees with much of what you say.
But the healthcare bill is not necessarily the best place to fix or rectify this…and especially not now with the jobless rate where it is. Surely 8+ million people cannot ALL be malingerers, can they? You can’t seriously think that, I hope.
And, while you decry the free ride of the little guy, I prefer to think the larger evil is the free ride that many large and highly profitable corporations (and unions) get due to inequal access to our politicians. So, all the big bonuses the financial institution corporate guys got was because “they earned it?” Come on, fella, open your eyes.
Stockholders own “big” corporations (I am one). Big corporations hire people, pay taxes, donate alot and raise our standard of living with innovations the SELL for a PROFIT in our Capitalistic system (that rewards “work”).
If you Cassandra , had any idea of “human nature” you’d understand.
Your envy is showing thru like most liberals who think “if I can’t have it then noone can”
And don’t call me fella, girlie. I learned what I think thru years of the school of hard knocks and OJT (on job training).
Try and handle your envy. You have no one to blame but yourself.
Never argue or even discuss a matter with a liberal, as they always will eventually resort to an emotional outburst of factless ridicule and name calling when they have nothing logical to add. Lets take a closer look at their core postions.
Tax those who have earned their money and give to those who have not earned money. If you spend twice as much money as you have, that is perfectly ok because we have to… Uhh? Take whatever is undeniable truths and make them wrong. We cannot call terrorist what they are but man made disasters…. Uhh? It is not illegal to cross our borders illegally. Uhh?
You cannot argue with someone that believes such things to be the truth.
Cassandra, you fail in each of your posts to acknowledge who all is affected by this.
This bill is increasing the tax burden on the wealthy and working middle class.
Most people live paycheck to paycheck and can barely afford to buy their family food. This isn’t always because their insurance premiums are too high. So I feel it is unfair to make those, who are the beating heart of this country, sacrifice more for someone else. Social Security, takes enough from us already. People need to learn to save.
To consider health care a “right” is wrong. Someone who commits a crime, chooses not to work, eats McDonald’s every day, takes illegal drugs, or who has made poor financial decisions does not deserve the great health care we have.
Now I understand that there are those who do work hard, but may have been laid off. We should focus on helping them. But there are other ways than just to raise taxes and force people to pay for something they may not want.
Here are some options:
– Help create jobs; provide incentives for people to seek jobs (rather than providing handouts)
– No health care for those who are not citizens. Or… if they receive care, they must pay it off in a certain amount of time or get deported, put in jail, or no longer have access to health care.
– If your illness is caused by obesity, smoking, drug abuse, or some other self induced cronic illness and you are unemployed – sorry SOL
– I could go on.
Society needs to change. Stand up, work for yourselves and act like Americans.
IT APPEARS THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN SOME THOUGHT TO YOUR COMMENTS. HOWEVER, YOU FAILED TO RECOGNIZE ONE IMPORTANT POINT THAT MOST OF US KNOW TO BE TRUE; OBAMA CARE WAS NEVER INTENDED TO FIX HEALTH CARE. IT IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN ABOUT PARTY POWER. THE ENTIRE US CONSTITUTION IS LESS THAN 24 PAGES LONG. YOU DON’T NEED 2000 PAGES TO FIX HEALTH CARE. BUT, IF YOUR GOAL IS ABSOLUTE CONTROL, THAT REQUIRES DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS. IF YOU THINK OBAMA CARES ABOUT YOUR SUGGESTIONS OR HAS ANY INTENTIONS OF FIXING HEALTH CARE TO OUR LIKING I SUGGEST YOU READ HIS BOOK AND LISTEN A BIT CLOSER TO HIS MENTORS AND FOLLOWERS. OBNAMA IS A TYRANT AND HAS ONE PRIMARY GOAL; TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF THE U.S OF AMERICA. HE HATES THIS COUNTRY AND ALL THAT IT STANDS FOR. HE WAS BREAD FROM A MUSLIM, RAISED BY A MUSLIM, CLAIMED BY THE MUSLIMS, LOYAL TO THE MUSLIMS, HAS THE HEART AND SOUL OF A MUSLIM. HE RESENTS CHRISTIAN VALUES AND HE HATES THIS COUNTRY AND IT’S PEOPLE. HE WILL DESTROY AMERICA IF GIVEN FULL OPPORTUNITY. SO JUST KEEP LOOKING FOR THOSE LOGICAL SOLUTIONS AS YOUR COUNTRY CRUMBLES BEFORE YOU. CASSANDRA AND OTHERS LIKE HER WILL LOVE YOU FOR IT. BECAUSE THEY GO THROUGH LIFE WITH THEIR EYES WIRED SHUT.
The fact remains Cassandra the USA does not have the money for Obamacare!
Government run healthcare has brought Britian, France & Greece to the financial abyss and they have nowhere near the 300,000,000 population of the USA.
I would rather live in a country where a few people are miserable rather than everyone.
Not one of you great “conservative” minds has answered any of the questions posed or provided any solution. Apparently, you are all content to swallow the pap you get fed on Fox and by Glenn and Rush.
You have no credibility unless you can show that you have thought beyond the propaganda…you are just spoilers.
For other poster, so glad to hear the news that God is on the side of the conservatives. Like I said, glad we are not in Salem in the 1600’s.
…free market answers would work, like the ability to choose the coverage I want to purchase.
Unfortunately your socialist suggestion of expanding medicaid would make an already bankrupt system even more bankrupt.
Currently Medicaid payments including states are almost equal to Medicare.
YTD figures for fiscal year 2010:
Medicaid 338,000,000,000
Medicare 379,000,000,000
Medicare was designed as a program to be funded by its participants.
Medicaid recieves little to no funds from its participants.
If you doubled medicaid, you can see that you would be providing more free insurance to the tune of almost 950,000,000,000 per year. With a 1,400,000,000,000 debt currently you would drive the debt over 2,000,000,000,000 per year.
So where would you suggest we get that money? http://www.fms.treas.gov/mts/mts0610.pdf
Let me know if you need an explanation of the numbers.
I have read all these comments, and all I can think is that Dittoheads and Beckheads are morons. If this is what passes for intelligent discourse, we are all doomed. BTW – before you think I am some socialist follower of the great Obama, I will admit that it is possible that the healthcare bill could be a piece of trash and may be unconstitutional. The court will decide the latter, as it should. I will admit that I do not know enough about it to make an informed decision, but I sure as heck refuse to spout inanities heard from some third rate, pandering media blowhard. Give me facts, reasons, logic and solutions, please.
Cassandra, you simply ignore the fact the USA does not have the money for Obamacare. What would you propose, printing more fiat money? Did you receive everything you wanted as a child? There are things we must forego in life, such as ideas and desires we do not have the money for.
if you think Obamacare is the solution to your health care problems I say you are crazy. this will be the start of your problems. this bill will prove to be the worst thought out, most expensive disaster in American history. Don’t anybody kid themself, this bill in its current form will never go into effect.
Can some one explain to me why a doctor gets paid commision for sell prescriptions drugs, to the tune of hundreds of thousands per year. Or why drug companies advertise so you can go to your doctor and tell him what you need. Or why at age 62 medical insurance for me and my wife is $2,000.00 per month. Or why medical insurance companies have to see how many times they get charge for the same thing. The system is corrupt the same as the banking system, some how it need to be fixed. Just because you work some place that pays your insurance so you do not know the real cost does not mean it is OK.
Obama is overmatched for the job at best and is disloyal to our ideals, at worst.
Health reform is only about redistribution of wealth. Here is an idea, if you can’t afford kids then don’t have them! Whatever happened to working for what you have instead of crying about what others have achieved, that you desire.
Bigger government is never the answer. Our government does two thing well. They collect taxes well and wage war real well. That is it.
And no, I do not hate Obama because of his skin color. I hate Obama because he lies and hates America.
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana.
As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all the other monkeys with cold water. After a while another monkey makes the attempt with same result, all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.
Now, put the cold water away. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs.
To his shock, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs he will be assaulted.
Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one.
The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.
Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs he is attacked.
Most of the monkeys that are beating him up have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing all of the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana.
Why not?
Because as far as they know, that is the way it has always been done around here.
And that, my fellow monkeys, is how Congress operates….
After reading all these posts, I am disappointed. I think changes will be made to Obamacare. Let’s give our legislators IDEAS on ways to change it. Make catastrophic insurance available with a high deductible for a simple policy that will work for most individuals. Have plastic surgery options on insurance policies. For people with pre-existing conditions, put them in the Medicare program. The citizens of this country did not want Medicare, but it was pushed on them. So now that everyone is paying in to it, it would be a good place for those with pre-existing conditions. Lastly, expand the Medicaid program for the working poor. Right now the amount you can earn and get Medicaid is so low that it is impossible for the “working poor” to qualify. Instead of arguing who is left or right, let’s figure out how we can keep the best doctors and health care system in the world AND IMPROVE IT FOR ALL!
I can’t even comprehend the insanity and hatred encompassed in Chag’s answer…not to mention the prejudice. Was this posted from a survivalist camp in MT?
Vlad, the answer is that we need to look at what the government spends and for what. it is time that the government prioritize expenses as do we all with our own budgets. The wasteful spending has got to be incomprehensible to us normal people. The healthcare system needs to be reviewed. I don’t know about you, but I see incredible waste in excess services, inflated costs, layers and layers of hospital staff each doing a single piece of the care and totally confusing the patient. These guys spend more time tapping into their computers than actually looking at the patient. Sleep clinics? Come on. Have you looked at the stats for opiate perscriptions increase in the WC arena? Poor surgical choices for patients that were doomed to poor outcome?
The healthcare bill is a start. A poor start in many ways, because it is a sick hybrid that satisfies no one, but a start. It is partly such a Frankinstein because at the time, the Dems thought they could get bi partisan support and so allowed every lobbyist in big healthcare and pharma and way too many riders. It is imperfect. B
UT YOU HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE since the healthcare system (or how we insure and proivide it) was WAY overdue to careful scrutiny.
Cassandra, I can not follow your logic. You admit that there is a good amount of wasteful spending in medicare (government run) and then you go one to say the health care bill will fix it?
How? Its like you let the fox watch the hen house, the fox eats a hen, so you say “well Mr. Fox, you ate a hen, that is really bad, and to prevent this from happening again, I am going to put more hens into the hen house” but you still allow the same fox to watch the hen house!?
Casssandra lives in a dream world with no concept of reality. She labels any who disagree as “haters” and she thinks she’s taken the moral high ground when in reality she knows not a whit about human nature, history or the facts about this President and his Muslim leanings, books he’s written, appointments he’s made, statements he’s made (see YouTube) and friends of his.
She’s an example of the liberal “we love everybody” mindset that have been taken advantage of thru out history. Look at Europe and the problems they are having now.
Finally, she has NO logical thinkings at all.
Yes, I know Medicaid is poorly run. We need to clean house. However, that is the most logical place for the working poor to be serviced. We are already paying outrageous prices at emergency rooms for them. However, in our society we take care of those who need it the most with the tax dollars we contribute. We need to ensure those tax dollars are spent wisely. However, we are all going to keep paying taxes whether we like it or not. Placing people with pre-existing conditions in Medicare is logical because the system is already set up. The premiums are low, yet people do have to pay a 20% co-pay (I know because I have an elderly relative on Medicare.) Both of these systems are set up and can be monitored and improved. Then let the rest of us buy the insurance we want from private carriers. The carriers could offer more innovative programs. Also, we should be able to purchase a la carte. I 50 year old male should not have to have an increased premium due to maternity coverage being offered by that carrier. A la carte programs would be a real innovation. If our congress people can get together and get ideas such as these implemented, they could eliminate MOST of Obamacare! By the way, I am a Libertarian, and try to look at what may be best for all of our citizens. I don’t mind paying taxes (would prefer the Fair Tax), but I totally resent the abuse of how my taxes are spent!
I find fault in your logic that “placing pre-existing conditions into medicare is logical” You admit it is in debt, and you just want to put MORE debt into it. “Well, I don’t have anywhere to put my stuff so i guess I have no other option then to place it in a burning building, because hey, the building is already in place”
or if you don’t like that example, you can use my prior post about the Fox and hen house.
Trying to reason and use common sense with Cassandra is like spitting in the wind. It’s a waste of time and it will only blow back into your face. She is a shinning example of what’s wrong with our country.
If you can’t win an argument on the facts you attack the individual and try to discredit him through character assassination. Because I strongly disagree with the policies of the Obama Administration, particularly as they relate to health care, she has labeled me as prejudice and a hater. Apparently Cassandra does not restrict herself to just making uninformed comments about politics and politicians. She has revealed herself as a bias , uninformed individual who has no respect for the facts.
First of all I am a Black Man (surprised), I grew up in the South and I have experienced racism and prejudice first hand. I am feed up with liberals and blacks using allegations of racism to supress free speech. I do not hate Obama; I simply do not agree with his politics and the direction that he is taking this country. as a former Naval Aviator I have put my life on the line for this country. I believe that I have earned the right to express my opinion, free of supression and intimidation.
What have you done for your country, lately? Other that bring us the destroyer in chief. That’s not meant to be hateful. It’s just fact.
If you are not being hateful, then do not use hateful languagei in these posts. How about making your points using civil lnguage for starters.
You say that I am illogical, but I don’t see any suggestions that are cogent from you two other than Anne here…just invective.
As for the foxes watching the hen house, I guess we are choosing different foxes. Like the current foxes are doing a good job…so the rate increases, inequitable rate structure, corporate coverage denials, fraud etc., are being well handled by the current foxes???
You tell me I am name calling; most of the posts by you and yours are exactly that and start out like that. Your emails are perfect example.
…Cassandra, however you don’t like to answer specific questions, but rather think doing anything is better than doing nothing.
If I practice a bad golf swing everyday, I will still be a bad golpher, no matter how much practice or effort is used.
Same goes with giving the government your money and expecting to be “careful” with it. They prove time and again they are incapable of the simplest of tasks and yet you want to give them more money, because “they will get it right this time and eliminate the fraud and abuse?”
Again I will state, you trust the government to take care of problems. I trust myself and the free market.
This distinction makes you a socialist and me a capitalist.
Cassandra, apparently you consider comments in disagreement with your thought to be hateful language. You are a very dangerous person because you incriminate others for speaking what they believe to b the truth. Based on your comments it appears that you are not very familiar with the history of our country. The people who founded this country were very passionat in their views and opinios as to how they wanted to be governed.
It was not unusual for fight to breakout in the halls of congress. The South tried to succeed from the union not primiarly due to slavery, but because of the over-bearing natur of President Lincoln’s leadership.
Jefferson, Franklin and Eisenhower all warned us numerous times to beware of a overreaching Federak Government. Alexis De Toqueville warned us that once the people realise that they can vote themselves benefits from the federal treasury, our government will be lost. Our constitution does not give the federal government the power and authority that it has assumed.
Citizens such as you, who believe that strong objections to an overreching Federal Government is hate speach give aid and comfort to an already corrupt bureaucracy. Too many people are taken in by Barack Obama due to the color of his skin rather than the content of his character. He is not nearly as smart as he is given credit for. You must review your history.
OK, Vlad. So, what do you suggest? You have to agree that the current foxes have not done good jobs. You fear the foxes I would rather see in charge…so…what’s your solution? Obviously the “invisible hand” of capitalism has not worked as yet or so far.
So..I may be a “socialist” in your mind and you may be a “capitalist” in yours, but we are both citizens and we do need some solutions.
The healthcare bill, as imperfect as it is, is not a socialist plot. At last, it has opened dialogue on a very serious issue that is affecting your taxes and mine, our position on humanitarian care for illegals, providing our fellow citizens with access and care at reasonable cost, curbing fraud and excesses of private industry (I hope). Of course, all that dialogue should have taken place BEFORE the bill was passed…but such is our govenrnmantal system that it sadly, did not.
Thank you for your response and the civil tone of it.,
Chag, review your history as well. Eisenhower also warned of the “military industrial complex” and so it has come to pass as we see by all the lucrative lobbying that big corps (including big unions) fund on Capitol Hill.
Did you forget your hisotry about the many that fought for safety laws? For child labor laws? For minimum wages? For workers compensation? for civil rights? For unemployment compensation? the union workers murdered at the gates of Ford Motor company for striking for fair wage? For the miners that had to become Molly Macguires to get somewhat safer working conditions? Think a lot of those folks might be the ones you want to label as “liberals” and paint as wild eyed thoughtless creatures….
I thought we were discussing the Federal Government. Nearly all of the things that you identified fall under States Rights(Laws). You mention the negative value of the Military Industrial Complex. Yet, you put your trust in politicians put in place by that very group.
Do you know that the very first government installed in this country by the Pilgrims was socialism (good intentions). They nearly perished as a result. It was changed to capitalism and the Pilgrims were able to enjoy their first thanksgiving. Our current administration does not believe in capitalism. Are we to stand silent and watch the greatest government ever install by man be destroyed in one presidential term?
As Americans we must stop fighting each other over small things and come together. We have a Federal Government tat is trying to replace our God. The Pilgrims learned early on that the Government cannot be allowed steal the labor of one man and give it to another.
…I think I have made myself clear on how it should be handled, that is, through the free market system. Again to repeat myself, the Medicare and Medicaid spending is unsustainable without large tax increases. If you want socialism, you have to pay for it.
I am not defining you as a socialist “in my mind”, but rather using the definition of the word socialism. If you have a problem with the definition, you need to bring it up with Merriam-Webster.
Lastly, your post about illegals does not concern me as an American citizen(it does concern me as a human and it should concern their leaders). They are citizens of another country and should be taken care of by the country from where they came, it is not the responsiblity of the citizens of the United States of America.
PS I would like to point out I am not very bright as proof of my previous post using “Golpher” instead of “Golfer”. That could be why am not a very good golfer(or speller).
PPS there is compassion on all sides, liberal, moderate and conservative, we just have different ideas on how to achieve our goals.
Vlad…but the free market system in healtcare is not working…as evidenced by the rising and apparently uncontrollable cost to the pyors, by the level of profits expected, by the fraud allowed, by the fact that it cannot provide for all that deserve.
And, by the way, I TOTALLY agree that the illegals need to be sent home…not what you thought I meant.
Chag, yeah, I read Mayflower also. Hardly an apt comparison of starving, dislocated 17th century pioneers to our current world. I would suggest you look at the social democracies of Scandinavia for a better comparison…and a better view of how it could happen…benefits as well as negatives.
Cassandra, I give up. You have a nice day and a wonderful life.
P.S comparing Scandinavia Democracy to the American Republic is like comparing an Native American tribe to the entire U.S. Government. It does not matter whether it is the 17th century or the 21st century, peoples behaviors have not changed only their technology. You still hold to the premis that the government can force people to act civil towards one another, while stealing and transferring their property to someone else. Good luck with that.
Well we’ve brought just about everything including Scandanavians and the Native Americans into the mix, and the battle lines have been drawn. Bravo! as long as we continue to attack each other and refuse to find common ground to achieve some type of resolution, we’ll continue to march to the government drum (no matter the party) and eventually implode leaving very nice fractured pieces to be picked up and controlled with even less effort than it requires to control us now. Keep up the good work folks!
We as a people see what the government is trying to pull. Its just that some people buy into the balonga that the government
feeds us (Healthcare included). Thats why we are attacking each other, trying to make the others see what crap the government is trying to fee us. Now, people of both parties are guilty of buying the crap the government gives us as long as the politician that is feeding us the crap has the right letter in front of their name. In my experiance, many people that as soon as they identify themselves as part of a political party, they tend to stop thinking for themselves and let the party think for them instead. Not everyone mind you, but it seems to be a large amount that fall into that catagory.
It is imposible to legislate wealth. As soon as you unfairly take from someone who has earned something and give to someone who has not earned it, he or she will inevitably give it right back to the person who earned it again…
We could legislatively give every democrat in this country 1 million dollars and in 10 years all conservative republicans would have their money back. LOL…..
I honestly believe that this is true due to progressive minded educational system of this country, who is always using the term “make money”, example; (Those upper income brackets “making” more than 250K should pay more in taxes.) What if you change the language to this, ( Those upper income earners, EARNING more than $250 thousand a year. You see the people with money have EARNED it, Those without have not EARNED it!
The Constitution was written to protect States and Individuals from the Federal Government. If there ever was a time we needed to rally around our constitution it is now!
Don’t you read the stats that indicate that the middle class has lost significant ground in the past few decades due primarily to inequitable tax laws, namely, the tax give backs of the Bush admin?
The fact remains that it is still easier to live on 60% of 1,000,000 than 90% of 20,000.
The taking has already been done primarily t both blue and white collar to foreign countries? Didn’t you also read that some of these jobs are coming back due to better quality product, press by Chinese workers for higher wages, rising shippoing costs, more compoetitive American labor situation, and lessening chance of information theft and counterfeiting…among other reasons?
One is not doing a Robin Hood but restoring some balance to the imbalance.
Do not wrap your self simplistically in the Consititution; there are other rights involved as well. If the Constitution was designed to be static, we wouldn’t have amendments and a Supreme Court….
C, you are a fool, in my eyes , as, I am sure I am in yours. Congress passes tax law and Pelosi, Reid, et al passed a bunch the last 18 mos of Bush’s term, Do everybody a favor and do you own research of the facts. Your arguments are those crafted by a second grader.
I hope they close this thread………..and C ends up happy. I’m going eat some Bluebell IC.
You’re right! Save your words. Logic bounces off of her like a rubber ball off of a concrete wall. These are the kinds of people who love and support Obama. They also brought Hitler to power.
…that labeled you a socialist, because you are one by your own admission.
Socialism: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods or services. (Merriam Webster)
The vast majority of socialists I know are very intelligent. I prefer capitalism to solve problems and you prefer government. That makes me a capitalist and you a socialist, that is not name calling, but rather using words and their definitions correctly. From your posts I think you are very intelligent I just disagree with your(government aka socialist) solutions.
Larry
SURELY you jest!
Who usually starts the name calling on these posts…certainly it is 90% pof the time the more “right” leaning, shall I say fpor fear of starting another round of name calling. I am sick of Obama bashing, liberal bashing and you allw wrapping yourself in the Consititution and the American flag to the exclsuipon of everyone else. glad this isn’t Salem in the 1600’s….
Silly Larry, we are ALL taxed to pay for government AND corporate excess (or didn’t you read the article about how 10 bil will be a legitimate tax write off for BP)…that is money that the collective public will not see in tax revenues…so don’t be so naive. We ALL work hard and some of the hardest working people I know are the poorest and have gotten the rawest deals. Stop being so smug…but for the grace of God…
Realist, no, not envy, but very sad that this country is so polarized. These blogs do little to restore my faith that we can continue to be civil to each other. While we may be granted the freedom to say what we want, with that freedom, as with all, goes a responsibility that some of you all fail to even think about when you post your hateful little snipes. You are not clever, you are not participating in meaningful debate. Spare me.
Cassandra, will not see the light until it is too late. She is a devout Liberal. Liberals always think that they are right and open minded. when in fact they are very closed minded and selfish. It is not the government or any man who will dictate our fate, but God. Liberals have a problem with God because they want to be our God. They see themselves as good caring individuals, able to solve all of the worlds problems if the rest of us would just listen to them and follow their instructions.
Liberals believe in the Government more than they believe in God. Therefore, a God fearing person will never truly win an argument with them because they put themselves on a pedestal above God. They can solve all of your problems if they can just get total control of your property and your life.
Cassandra is angry because we petty God fearing individuals dare to question her liberal friends and politicians. Who are we to question the great and powerful, all knowing community leader Obama.
Way to go VA! After VA wins this battle perhaps Massachusetts residents can get busy getting Romney’s Mass Health Care requirement repealed.
To Tony L. Guess you enjoy watching people die needlessly. I assume you have health coverage, now you can be selfest.
To paraphrase Neil, “That’s one small step for the US Constitution.”
Tony…you say this now. Wait til you lose your health insurance due to job loss and get a pre existing condition that precludes you from securing private insurance. Since you deride this bill, I am sure that you will not seek to collect Medicaid or Medicare if such situation should arise for you since this is yet another intrusion of “big government into your free market life…and you will trust that private health insurers will then step up be happy to cover you so you do not lose your house, your bank accounts, and whatever else you have been working for for perhaps decades. I envy your faith in the private system.
Nice to know YOU won’t be a burden to the taxpayers.
Fred, you missed the sarcasm!
This one gets an A+. Bolton in the AZ case gets F-.
Don’t think so. and was Jack being sarcastic when he paraphrased Neil?
Get serious, Jack. How about “LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?”
This one is obviously not one of the better ones. :(
People are so busy listening to the political hotheads that they don’t understand the true magnitude (and necessity) of Health Reform.
So, the VA Attorney General and Govenor like to see more people denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions? The availability of coverage to youngsters on their parents plan up to age 26 is a bad thing even when the insureds will be charged? Making coverage available to people who previously had none is a bad thing? Don’t give me the socialist garbage. The private insurance companies made out well in this bill. There is no public option or single payer system either. Why do republicans continue to hammer on poor folks? Because they can. The “have nots” have no voice and they are an easy target. Opposing this progressive legislation provides the illusion that they are standing up for the tax payers. But, remember: MEDICARE PART D WAS THE LARGEST EXPANSION OF GOVERNEMENT HEALTH CARE AND IT WAS PASSED BY A REPUBLICAN CONTROLLED SENATE/CONGRESS AND WHILE A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT WAS IN OFFICE. Oh by the way, Part D. is a mess and has done more to abuse the dificit than any health care expansion. Virginia’s action is nothing but grandstanding at the expense of the “have nots.”
Kriss,
You are so right. The hotheads would rather rant than find out the issues and understand the problems. Lets hope this judge will see the light.
ObamaCare is just another step in total Socialsim and they are already working on a Public Option so that government, who does such a terrible job at every other thing they administer will take over our lives and decide who lives and who dies. Can you say death panels? I hope all the states in opposition to this crime of a bill will join Virginia and get this monstrocity repealed or defunded.
Cassandra,
We are “endowed by our Creator” with those unalienable rights. Not the Federal government.
I guess you have a problem with the US Constitution and limited, numerated powers.
The US Government cannot even get tombstones correct in Arlington and now it plans to dictate how we secure our own health care?
Are you in favor of the US Government providing carcare for all? Housecare for all?
At what point does one take responsibility for ones own self?
IF OBAMACARE IS SOOO GOOD, WHY DO CANACAN’S COME HERE FOR SERIOUS CARE AND WHY ARE CANADA AND ENGLAND CHANGING THEIR SYSTEMS AND WHY IS GREECE BANKRUPT? THE SUPPORTERS HAVE NOT GIVEN ME AN HONEST ANSWER.
WELL DONE VIRGINIA. HOPEFULLY ALL OTHER STATES WILL WAKE UP.
Everyone seems to be missing the point. The question is a constitutional one… Does the Federal Government have the enumerated power under the constitution to impose a mandatory Health Coverage requirement on the citizenry. I would stipulate that it does not; many might disagree, but the decision of the judge to allow the suit to move forward was entirely appropriate. There used to be a time in this country whereby congress would first ask whether something was constitutional before moving forward. Today, it appears as if they view the constitution in disgust.
THE CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION IS A SETTLED ISSUE TO MOST THINKERS. OBAMACARE IS AN OVER REACH! AND SHOULD BE, OR ELSE THE FEDERAL GOV’T WOULD BE MANAGING OUR HEALTHCARE LIKE THEY ARE MANAGING OUR SOUTHERNBOARDER.
JR. Who is they? THEY who tried to pass a bill with a public option backed off on that in order to get this thing passed. There is no public option and probably never will be. Do you read the papers or watch the news or do you just stick with FOX? Death Panels, really? Are you seriously trotting out that piece of trash of an argument that even semi-sane republicans admit is a farce? Do you have a brain in your head or are you currently sitting on it? The insanity of your argument and your complete lack of understanding of the issue is indicitive of where the political discourse has gone in this country. You do your side a major diservice. It is best that you keep quiet.
Emotion seems to be the riding factor for many supporting this farce of “health care”. “You don’t care about others” “You want others to die” “You are selfish” “You wait until you get a pre-existing condition” Talk about fear-mongering.
I have a pre-exisiting condition that affects my heart, lungs, joints, and blood clotting ability. I do not support universal healthcare. I don’t believe people against it are against me. I do not believe those against ObamaCare are selfish and want me to die. That is just not logical nor does rhetoric like that allow for intelligent debate.
Joan: Sounds like you have never been denied due to your pre-existing condition. Come back to us when you have. It’s not fear mongering. Those espousing the evils of this and “death panels” are plenty guilty of fear mongering. This is about reality. You either have a chance for coverage or you don’t. I’ll bet you that the opposers are safely covered.
Why would I lie? That is an obnoxious assessment just because I don’t fit the theory being espoused.
I have group insurance via my company. I purposely find a company to work for that provides it. Even when I was a waitress for a restaurant, I had group insurance. At the gym where I taught aerobics, group insurance was offered.
The death panels comment being used is due to what takes place in Europe. There are several articles and statistics that show they determine whether or not a person is “worth” the procedure needed to save their life. This is not fear-mongering. This is fact.
The answer is not arguing using emotion and snarky comments about others or their comments. Everyone in this country seems to think the “other side” is hateful, nasty, etc- but they don’t see their own comments and reactions as such. So much hate being spewed back and forth and no solutions. It is rather disgusting.
Is that it does nothing to lower the cost of health insurance. People can still bring lawsuits against thier doctors because the doctor gave them a cross-eyed look. Forcing insurers to cover pre-ex conditions is just going to make everyone else’s rates go up. I say, address the reason why insurance is so high (tort reform), THEN address the pre-existing condition issue.
JR,
I suggest you check out HR 5808. The public option amendment to Obamacare which has been filed in the House by a group of liberal representatives.
After you do that, perhaps you’ll do us a favor and remove the “genius” on your handle.
We need tort reform. How about a simple catastrophic plan that citizens can buy at a reasonable price. No frills. Just the coverage for cancer, stroke, heart attacks, etc. – major, catastrophic illnesses. People need to quit going to the doctor for every hangnail, and worrying about a tiny co-pay (some think $50 is too high)! How about insurance carriers offer coverage for plastic surgery, etc. at higher premiums. Health insurance needs to be innovative. Also, most carriers cover pre-existing conditions after one year. If you lost your job, the Feds are paying 60% of your COBRA, so there is really little room for excuses.
Come back to us when you are denied due to your pre-existing conditions. Death Panels is a farce and has no basis in fact.
Hope this doesn’t happen to you.
Receive layoff notice; lose your health insurance the day of your lay-of; find out your ex – boss is fighting you for unemployment benefits by telling the bureau you were fired for misconduct. This is happening in about 20% of all layoffs!
Have your Unemployment Benefits stopped for months and months and months pending your day in court before the magistrate.
Hopefully you can provide documentation to prove you were laid off through no fault of your own and did not commit wrongful misconduct and get fired for it.
All the while, there will be no money coming in while you frantically search for a new job – best of luck if you are over 50!
Check out cost for health insurance on your own. What, you are over 50 and have a couple of minor pre-existing conditions?? Okay– fork out $800-$1200 a month for individual insurance or go bare and pray a lot.
Start selling your possessions on E-Bay and tap into your retirement savings for emergencies – like buying food, paying for shelter and emergency doctors and dentists visits- hopefully your car or home won’t need major repairs!
…And how do you figure that ObamaCare is going to lower your cost of insurance? Sure pre-existing conditions cannot be a factor for not insuring you, but where is the “free lunch?” Just look at the health care industry. Large buildings. Lots of well educated (thank God) employees. State of the Art equipment that needs maintenance. Where do you propose the savings are going to come from?
Lets see I thought the Constitution was written to protect the States from interfering in their business and protect individuals from excessive government involvement in our lives?
Had enough “Change” yet? I have!
Look at the process when this was created, you cannot tell me that anything was well thought out! It was get it done and payoff the Doctors, Big Pharm, Lawyers, Insurance industry, and again it will be put squarely on our backs when all is said and done. Of course making someone buy a product to protect themselves in unconstitutional. And taking over an industry which provides these services is also unconstitutional. This general wellfare clause is a stretch at best. Just use your common sense. Why are the progressives trying to ruin our country financially? NEVER LET A CRISIS GO TO WASTE! (Rahm Emanuel)
Did you read the article? The issue is over whether it is constitutional to force the people to buy something (which it isn’t).
Everything else in the bill can stay (pre-existing conditions, age limit increased to 26, etc.).
Please think before you post.
Do you want to know what the difference is between a conservative and a progressive is? A conservative knows what is best for themselves and that the greatness of this country lies within its people and the decisions they make. A progressive thinks that all power emanates from the benevolent government. I will take Adam Smith’s view of the “Invisible Hand” over some controlling bureacrat anyday. Did I have any typos???
And just how is that my problem. Liberals seem to think their problems are the responsibility of everyone else. If you get sick or if you die it is not my problem. I have my own family to care for and providing you with my property deprives my family. The government has no right to steal from me to give to you or anyone else. If I choose to give, that is a virtue and will lift me up in the eyes of God and my fellow man. If I am robbed of my possessions whether it be by a corrupt government or a corrupt individual, my rights will have been violated and my family deprived.
You are not my responsibility and you have no right to steal my property.
Death and sickness are a part of life and evolution. We as a species evolve by the softening of our hearts and our generosity to our fellow man. Stealing from your fellowman does not soften his heart.
Only those who know and love you care about your problems. If you are consistently trying to steal from others to secure your own existence, I promise you the list of people who care for you will be greatly diminished. The government is run by the people that you see everyday and they couldn’t care less about your welfare. I suggest that you stop begging and prepare to meet your maker with dignity.
Right on Chag! The farce to their story!! But too much COMMON SENSE for the Liberals (“it’s not MY fault, so you bail me out, to hell with you or your family”).
Obama Care is so good that Congress excludes themselves from this wonderful piece of two thousand page piece of garbage???? Social Security is so good Congress excludes themselves???
Think of what Congress is missing??? They all have pre-existing conditions in Washington. Lack of keeping their eye on the ball!!
I believe the states challenging the health care have a very strong case, and that the U.S. Supreme court will ultimately find that the U.S. government cannot compel individuals to purchase a private product simply because they’ve reached a certain age.
But then what? The courts will have found that the government cannot enforce the fundamental condition–universal participation–needed to sustain a private market in health insurance that is not hopelessly distorted by adverse selection.
The current system is already collapsing, principally for two reasons:
1. The decline of large employers; and
2. The fact that all health insurers, even the most benevolent non-profits, serve their members best by avoiding people with serious health conditions.
If the suits succeed, as I believe they will, even more care will be funded through the public sector by tax money. Opponents of “government-run health care” will end up being the ones instigating a mostly single-payer system.
If I am denied, then I pay out of pocket. It is my responsibility- not yours. I wouldn’t expect you or anyone else to pay for my care. But, that is how I was raised.
If you do the research, there are panels in Europe that determine what care people can/can’t get based on cost and “worth” based on age. But, you’d have to do the research.
Where are you getting your information? Do you have a source to show that this is happening to 20% of those laid off?
The “Liberals” never stop to find out which of their ideas may find merit with Conservatives and their evil Twin “Progressives” won’t stop short of total domination. (How do you spell National Socialism?)
If you think “death panels” are hyperbole, you forget the Golden Rule of the Dark Side: “HE WHO HAS THE GOLD, MAKES THE RULE!”
Surely, you’ve heard the story about when the amendment to allow an income tax was being debated the opposition wanted a cap of 5% to asure the assessment would not become burdensome. They were told their fears were unfounded and exagerated. Not long after that, Lord Roosevelt had the top rate over 85% and wanted to push it higher.
I don’t blame the President though; he’s just doing what the puppet masters tell him to do.
So, the states can force you to buy stuff but not the feds…like auto insurance for example? Is this not govt “stealing” from the likes of poor Chag, who is so independent?
The private insurance companies have failed to provide a solution for the unintentionally uninsured. although I would beg to differ alot on what their definition of some pre existing conditions are, it is not their job to take on unprofitable insureds and some pre existing conditions are exactly that. A government plan, therefore, is the only way to provide this necessity and so be it. The states are not going to so the fed needs to. Pure and simple.
The death panel issue is totally ridiculous….private insurance companies have their own “death panels” now, so what’s the difference? That you think that there will be no rationing of healthcare in the future is also very nearsighted; there is now. And there sholuld be some rationing in certain instances, when reasonless surgery and tests are given to trerminally ill patients, when neonates with not a chance are provided with heroic measures because the parent(s) cannot make the decision, etc., etc., etc.
These are all issues that will need to be confronted in the near future. You can stick your heads in the sand if you want, and stand on the rugged individualist model, but you are ultimately doomed…unless you are a billionaire, and then you can buy whatever care you need and the rest be damned.
Grow up. You will pay for others healthcare anyway (you do now), only you will force the recipients to bankrupt themselves before you do. Why? You guys are the first ones to strip Nana of her assets so you can get her into a Medicare paid nusring home, but you begrudge others a resonable chance to finally be able to purchase health insurance.
Joe, I agree with you that the suits will succeed.
However, I don’t agree with your prediction of what will happen afterwards.
I think a new Congress will exist in November and Obama will be voted out in 2012. Before Obama is voted out, I believe the Supreme Court will rule in favor of the states and the health care bill will be thrown out (well at least the part about mandatory purchasing of insurance).
In order to please the people, the newly established Congress will begin working on a new bill that addresses the real problem with health care – the cost of health care.
They will create a bill that places caps on medical malpractice claims, provides more incentives for businesses to cover their employees, and cleans up waste in our current system (specifically with medicare/medicaid and the ability for illegal immigrants to receive free health care).
This in combination with a healthier America will help reduce the cost of health care.
Just as described in Newt’s new book, liberals want to GAME the system and this Chicago thug and his cronies have taken the corrupt Chicago political system to Washington.
Wait until this idiot community organizer who has actually had TWO jobs and never met a payroll himself is thrown out due to fixing elections… That was a felony but HIS justice dept. will not prosecute a black man…
Wait, when this administration is over, this country will be digging out of this mess for decades. The debt and this nut’s spending is totally out of control. Jimmy Carter on steriods. The federal tax rate on $150k will be 78% before this four years is up.
Wait and beg the federal govt. for a free ride. There is NO such thing. We pay, you pay, everyone pays.
Unless, personal responsibility is returned like it should be.
Take care of your needs. I will take care of mine. Mental and physically handicapped get a free ride ON US.
That is IT. The illegals come HERE because we hand out everything if you will complete the paperwork.
Liberals are going bye bye again soon. Can we afford to wait any longer?
Damn, this has been a nightmare…
So as long as the federal judge agrees with your conservative point of view, they are a great judge and it isn’t “judicial activism”? I’ve always wondered why we don’t call it this when a conservative judge makes a ruling that seems to overstep their boundaries?
Actually, it is fear mongering. The “death panels” are actually in teh bill, where a “panel” will be created to determine who gets what, and at what time. In other words, at time of possible death, the panel will have decided what protocols and procedures are allowed and which are not allowed, thereby granting a government beauracrat the ability to determine who lives or dies.
So, a panel to determine who gets life saving care and who does not. Please explain how a “panel” that determines who gets to live or die is not a “death panel”.
Cassandra, You go girl. Not to mention that under private health care, over 40,000 people (Havard study) were estimated to have died due to lack of insurance. Not that’s a REAL death panel!
THe issue is even worse than you posit. If you have read the bill – which there is absoluely no way a “supporter” of this bill has (otherwise, you would no longer support it) – every item is specifically designed to drive health costs skyward. This was done by leftist democrats to punish the populace until they relent and allow for implementation of single-payer.
Think about that. The Democrat Party is purposely trying to victimize this country – killing people and piling unmanageable debt upon us all – until we “come around” and do what they say. These people are truly sick.
And leet us all keep in mind the numerous provisions of this Madoff-Care scam that will drive lawsuits, liningthe pockets of the trial lawyer lobby – all at the expense of Americans and lives.
One has to be a sick individual to be a Democrat these days. This is disgusting.
READ THE BILL!
Mike N. Under the current Medicare program, there are no panels. The decisions near the end of life are entirely up to the family and doctor. The whole “death panel” discussion is a Sister Sarah creation with zero foundation in fact.
You are wrong. If my doctor says I need thet procedure, I get it done, if I agree. The insurance company may cover it, it may not. But currently I get to choose. That will not be the case with this bill. Should the tdeath panels determine the care will not occur…it will not occur.
BTW, your name perfectly matches your input. Cassandra – “a person who prophesies doom or disaster.”
You are right in teh sense the current system does not employ the death panels. However, once again – IF YOU READ THE BILL – they will be enacted, by force of law, due to Obama’s Madoff-Care scam.
Please, stop with the ignorant rants and READ THE BILL. Obviously you have not spent a moment in review. Due to this fact your insights are patently false and make you look foolish. READ THE BILL!
Hey Johnny – Yes you did have a typo. “Bureaucrat”
Joan “of Arc” the underwriter – Wishing you much improved health!
Add to that the cost of paying for illegals healthcare. I live in a farming community, and this time of year there are usually 8-10 hour waiting periods at the emergency room, where many illegals go because they cannot legally be denied care.
“You go girl?” Are you 12?
Thank you, detail girl!
Mike, that is the problem- no one for it has really read the bill. Heck, even our Congressmen/women nor the President have read the bill. If you recall, Pelosi said we have to pass it to find out what is in it.
Now that is change you can believe in!
States don’t require everyone to pay for auto insurance and, if you don’t, penalize you through increased taxes. They actually let you buy a car first and then require you to insure it. Apples and Oranges — the constitutional point still stands.
Mike N. You are a nut job!
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/RaiseKids/1-in-4-must-fight-for-jobless-checks.aspx
How is health care a right?
Many of those needing extensive health care abused their bodies throughout their life (smoked, ate too much fast food, did drugs, didn’t excercise and so on).
So it is my duty to pay for their bad decisions? Is it a right for people to live forever?
When did we all get this entitled? I think health care is a privilege. If you live in America, you work for what you have. If you don’t work you should have the privilege.
Also, America has the best doctors in the world – and that is not cheap. If you want low cost health care and low quality care go to another country and stop wining.
Key word – Estimated. People die everyday and they have insurance. Death and taxes – these are guarantees.
Yeah, I KNOW who cassandra was…that’s why I picked the name. DUH
What makes you think that because I am “liberal” on some issues, I am what YOU think is liberal on all?
YES…stop the price gouging on medical procedures and pharmaceuticals….but which Republican president and which Republican Congress didn’t allow the feds to NEGOTIATE bulk npricing for Medicare? Just remeber that little piece of pandering to the Big Pharma interests.
YES…illegals should go home or be sent there and stop the drain on our healthcare, education, criminal, and social services. But they wouldn’t be here is they weren’t being hired….by whom? Small and large businesses who then whine about the cost of healthcare for all AMERICAN CITIZENS.
And you are wrong…it is the same thing if a state forces you vs. the feds…and, bluntly, I think health care for all is more important than making sure someone can sue someone after an auto cradh…but oh well, that’s just because I am a liberal, I suppose.
It’s a good thing some of you did not live in the 1790’s…some of what you are saying is really seditious. You are so worried about some poor slob being able to get a treatment on “your buck”, that you fail to see that we do, in fact, have socialism now…but for the big corps. Bet you all will be just ecstatic when we become and oligarchy and then let’s see what will happen to the Constitution, and your independence, and all the small businessmen.
I hope that a former poster is prescient…that you all will fight this tooth and nail, and when the whole system crashes (or you lose a loved one to the death panels of the private insurors)..we will end up with a single payor system. The law of unintended consequences is awesome…and karma really does exist.
Scrooged – you are confusing unemployment benefits with healthcare benefits, are you not? COBRA protects the healthcare benefits when you are laid off. It has nothing to do with your entitlement to unemployment.
I do think it’s pathetic that employers are contesting former employee claims, but equally pathetic are the unemployed who game the unemployment benefit system to collect benefits so that they don’t have to look for gainful employment. If everyone played fair and by the rules, than costs would be lower, taxes would be lower and more people who need assistance would actually get it.
DG…the point is that if you are not collecting unemployment benefits because employers may be stalling it, then you are not able to pay for COBRA. Do you have any idea how expensive it is for someone over 50? Can you afford 1400/mo with no income coming in?
And just remember, if the feds hadn’t forced the COBRA law, a ton more citizens would be uninsured…
I think you posit a lot more malingerers on unemployment than there are. Didn’t you see the article about 1 job for every job seeker that made all the news stations?
Finally, Cassandra hit the nail on the head.
Cassandra:
“You are so worried about some poor slob being able to get a treatment on “your buck”, that you fail to see that we do, in fact, have socialism now…but for the big corps.”
WOW!!!
We CAPITALISTS don’t like socialism, period.
You see in her heart, she can’t come to terms with herself, and that is that she is a socialist.
You see, the corporations get socialism, so I want some for me too.
To us capitailists, that thinking is the antithesis to what made this country great.
Liberal (or Progressive) is just a fancy name for socialist.
Thanks for the posts Mike N. You are correct in making such a clear point. Today you can have a procedure, regardless if insurance pays. Tomorrow with Obamacare, someone else will decide if you can have the procedure.
Guess who’s going to PAY FOR ALL THE LITIGATION…WE ARE, either at the state level as plantiff or the federal level as defendant…this, on top of the $2.3 plus TRILLION, this rubbish law will cost just to enact over a ten (10) year period! Why couldn’t this “rocket scientist” president and administration devise a plan which preserves the status quo for the overwhelming majority of people who are satisfied with their situation and a viable, alternative scheme for those legal, elegible citizens WHO WANT COVERAGE BUT CAN’T AFFORD IT OR ARE LOCKED OUT DUE TO PRE-EXSISTING MEDICAL CONDITIONS, etc? The answer is simple: Control/Socialism! Wake up America…the European model is headed west and you won’t like it!
“affordable health insurance ”
There is the problem, Cassandra. Where is this going to be affordable. The guberment, insurance companies, and medical providers are all still going to want to get paid. Who is going to pick up the tab…..us. If this bill was really going to do what they said it would do, I may be more open to it.
As far as the pre-existing conditions….I just don’t get how people live (some people) how are you living pay check to pay check. I’m never going to be rich, but I save and save so when a rainy day comes it doesn’t come crashing down on me.
When I was an adjuster, I got tired of seeing people living in junk houses that they didn’t take care of and then made a claim for a maintenance issue. When I showed up, I would find a new 50″ flat screen, all types of gaming machines for their brats, new SUV’s in the driveway, pure bread dogs. Then these people go out to eat every night for 10 times the cost that they could eat at home. “I didn’t have $200.00 to seal my roof, but I had a grand to buy that TV.
Are these the same people that can afford COBRA or their own insurance plan.
I also thought I heard on the news the other day that some states are starting some of these pre-existing pools. Premiums are going to range from $300.00 to $700.00 per month and now people are mad….cause they thought it was going to be free.
You could make it 50 bucks a month and some people would think it was too much.
I keep reading your posts on here whenever a controversial subject comes up. And I think about commenting back about how mistaken you are. But then I realize that it doesn’t seem that you are capable of independent thought. You must be reading out of the MSNBC, Obama playbook somewhere as I have yet to see an original comment from you. I appears that you just regurgitate the talking points of this administration. Hey, are you really an insurance professional or are you part of a PAC for a union somewhere?
Well, GC, I could say exactly the same thing about you.
So, then, what would you call the sweetheart deal that the Bush adnministration made with Big Pharma to not negotiate drug prices? If you think that socialism is taking from some to give to others, what, then, would you call the pharma deal? Good business practice? I see that as taking from the less politically potent to give to those with more money to spend to get their voices heard via expensive lobbying and big bucks spread around.
Then you wonder why the cost of medical care in this country is so high. Why, then do we consistently pay more in this country than the same drug costs anywhere in the world? yes, yes, yes, I know all about the malpractice and lawsuits, and I AGREE surprise) there need to be curbs…but lawsuits are not the total answer….and then what would you do for those who took VIOXX, Bestra, Avandia, etc., and were hurt by it via failure of full disclosure by the drug companies (who by the way, also do the testing trials) who knew what the side effects really were?
How do you balance all this out in your mind? Please, tell me.
Speaking of the lobbyists (ALL lobbyists) don’t you think to defend our consititutional rights by considering that the inequitable access to our lawmakers as individual citizens vs. large lobbying has taken away the “one man one vote” privilege we all should enjoy? And since when does a “corporation”, a non citizen, have the right to first amendment rights such that with their money and access anonymously pay for political ads? Or was that another masterful decision by the alleged “strict constructionist” majority that sits in the Supreme Court? Talk about legislating from the judiciary…I thought only liberal Supreme Court justices were supposed to do that….Did you like that decision?
Don’t let your antipathy for “liberals” blind you to other realities. I suspect that sometime in the future we will all be in the bunkers together…
I enjoy reading your posts, even when I don’t agree with part or all of them. Unfortunately this topic is very emotional and posters get carried away with expressing feelings more than facts – and I’m not accusing you of that. I’m in complete agree that health care reform is needed but I’m not confident that making people buy something when they don’t want to is the right way to go about it. I do like other parts such as not being able to cancel someone’s insurance, portability and providing access for those with pre existing conditions.It seems to me that the cost of medical care is completely out of control and I’m not certain how the Obamacare reform bill will act to correct that….time will tell. You have often said that government has to stand up and defend those that may otherwise be indefensible. My concern with that (a major concern) is that in spite of all the big talk by dems they do the best job of that, I’m not seeing very good results. I suppose I have been a bit jaded by the failure of all politicians of any party to truly look out for the populace. Seems they are looking out for themselves first as to get reelected. I know someone needs to look out for the average person but unfortunately I don’t think we can legislate that. Have a good evening kiddo and take it easy.
My former office consisted of fewer than 19 people so I was not eligible for COBRA.
Plus if your former boss alleges you were fired for wrongful misconduct, you won’t get COBRA.
OK…I took a “chill pill.” You are right, Gray Cat, it is very emotional because I am sick and tired of being accused of being a socialist just because I believe that the right (yes, right) of being able to purchase affordable health insurance needs to be extended to all. Those that don’t want to purchase it will pay a penalty, because, guess what, you and I will be paying for them if they get a catastrophic illness…so EVERYONE should pay via employer premium pay sharing, govt supported pools, or whatever.
I agree that the healthcare bill does not contain costs…but everytime someone tries to mention a possible way to do that, they are accused of government “death panels’ which isn’t correct. We will ALL have to face some kind of rationing (or purchase privately what we cannot get publicly) regardless of this bill or not and that is a grim reality as we face the demographics that are in motion not only in the US, but look to Europe, Japan, even China….too many oldies and not enough young ones.
I think we would agree on more than disagree if we would just get past the name calling and look for real solutions..or at least a common ground.
We have allowed ourselves too be polarized when, I would suspect, more of the “we, the people” would agree on certain things than not.
We workers not only have to work for ourselves and our families but we have to support other people who don’t, won’t or can’t work. Some, for generations, haven’t worked because they don’t have to, they get what they need from the Gov’t or crime. (We pay a TON of crime claims)
IS THAT FAIR????
IT GOES AGAINST HUMAN NATURE.
I, for one, am TIRED of it and most prople can see it’s just getting WORSE and BHO is making it worse every day.
America was not like this years ago.
History shows this is the wrong path to take, if people studied History.
Actually, this “liberal” who has worked full time for over 40 years, agrees with much of what you say.
But the healthcare bill is not necessarily the best place to fix or rectify this…and especially not now with the jobless rate where it is. Surely 8+ million people cannot ALL be malingerers, can they? You can’t seriously think that, I hope.
And, while you decry the free ride of the little guy, I prefer to think the larger evil is the free ride that many large and highly profitable corporations (and unions) get due to inequal access to our politicians. So, all the big bonuses the financial institution corporate guys got was because “they earned it?” Come on, fella, open your eyes.
Stockholders own “big” corporations (I am one). Big corporations hire people, pay taxes, donate alot and raise our standard of living with innovations the SELL for a PROFIT in our Capitalistic system (that rewards “work”).
If you Cassandra , had any idea of “human nature” you’d understand.
Your envy is showing thru like most liberals who think “if I can’t have it then noone can”
And don’t call me fella, girlie. I learned what I think thru years of the school of hard knocks and OJT (on job training).
Try and handle your envy. You have no one to blame but yourself.
Never argue or even discuss a matter with a liberal, as they always will eventually resort to an emotional outburst of factless ridicule and name calling when they have nothing logical to add. Lets take a closer look at their core postions.
Tax those who have earned their money and give to those who have not earned money. If you spend twice as much money as you have, that is perfectly ok because we have to… Uhh? Take whatever is undeniable truths and make them wrong. We cannot call terrorist what they are but man made disasters…. Uhh? It is not illegal to cross our borders illegally. Uhh?
You cannot argue with someone that believes such things to be the truth.
Cassandra, you fail in each of your posts to acknowledge who all is affected by this.
This bill is increasing the tax burden on the wealthy and working middle class.
Most people live paycheck to paycheck and can barely afford to buy their family food. This isn’t always because their insurance premiums are too high. So I feel it is unfair to make those, who are the beating heart of this country, sacrifice more for someone else. Social Security, takes enough from us already. People need to learn to save.
To consider health care a “right” is wrong. Someone who commits a crime, chooses not to work, eats McDonald’s every day, takes illegal drugs, or who has made poor financial decisions does not deserve the great health care we have.
Now I understand that there are those who do work hard, but may have been laid off. We should focus on helping them. But there are other ways than just to raise taxes and force people to pay for something they may not want.
Here are some options:
– Help create jobs; provide incentives for people to seek jobs (rather than providing handouts)
– No health care for those who are not citizens. Or… if they receive care, they must pay it off in a certain amount of time or get deported, put in jail, or no longer have access to health care.
– If your illness is caused by obesity, smoking, drug abuse, or some other self induced cronic illness and you are unemployed – sorry SOL
– I could go on.
Society needs to change. Stand up, work for yourselves and act like Americans.
IT APPEARS THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN SOME THOUGHT TO YOUR COMMENTS. HOWEVER, YOU FAILED TO RECOGNIZE ONE IMPORTANT POINT THAT MOST OF US KNOW TO BE TRUE; OBAMA CARE WAS NEVER INTENDED TO FIX HEALTH CARE. IT IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN ABOUT PARTY POWER. THE ENTIRE US CONSTITUTION IS LESS THAN 24 PAGES LONG. YOU DON’T NEED 2000 PAGES TO FIX HEALTH CARE. BUT, IF YOUR GOAL IS ABSOLUTE CONTROL, THAT REQUIRES DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS. IF YOU THINK OBAMA CARES ABOUT YOUR SUGGESTIONS OR HAS ANY INTENTIONS OF FIXING HEALTH CARE TO OUR LIKING I SUGGEST YOU READ HIS BOOK AND LISTEN A BIT CLOSER TO HIS MENTORS AND FOLLOWERS. OBNAMA IS A TYRANT AND HAS ONE PRIMARY GOAL; TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF THE U.S OF AMERICA. HE HATES THIS COUNTRY AND ALL THAT IT STANDS FOR. HE WAS BREAD FROM A MUSLIM, RAISED BY A MUSLIM, CLAIMED BY THE MUSLIMS, LOYAL TO THE MUSLIMS, HAS THE HEART AND SOUL OF A MUSLIM. HE RESENTS CHRISTIAN VALUES AND HE HATES THIS COUNTRY AND IT’S PEOPLE. HE WILL DESTROY AMERICA IF GIVEN FULL OPPORTUNITY. SO JUST KEEP LOOKING FOR THOSE LOGICAL SOLUTIONS AS YOUR COUNTRY CRUMBLES BEFORE YOU. CASSANDRA AND OTHERS LIKE HER WILL LOVE YOU FOR IT. BECAUSE THEY GO THROUGH LIFE WITH THEIR EYES WIRED SHUT.
The fact remains Cassandra the USA does not have the money for Obamacare!
Government run healthcare has brought Britian, France & Greece to the financial abyss and they have nowhere near the 300,000,000 population of the USA.
I would rather live in a country where a few people are miserable rather than everyone.
Not one of you great “conservative” minds has answered any of the questions posed or provided any solution. Apparently, you are all content to swallow the pap you get fed on Fox and by Glenn and Rush.
You have no credibility unless you can show that you have thought beyond the propaganda…you are just spoilers.
For other poster, so glad to hear the news that God is on the side of the conservatives. Like I said, glad we are not in Salem in the 1600’s.
…free market answers would work, like the ability to choose the coverage I want to purchase.
Unfortunately your socialist suggestion of expanding medicaid would make an already bankrupt system even more bankrupt.
Currently Medicaid payments including states are almost equal to Medicare.
YTD figures for fiscal year 2010:
Medicaid 338,000,000,000
Medicare 379,000,000,000
Medicare was designed as a program to be funded by its participants.
Medicaid recieves little to no funds from its participants.
If you doubled medicaid, you can see that you would be providing more free insurance to the tune of almost 950,000,000,000 per year. With a 1,400,000,000,000 debt currently you would drive the debt over 2,000,000,000,000 per year.
So where would you suggest we get that money?
http://www.fms.treas.gov/mts/mts0610.pdf
Let me know if you need an explanation of the numbers.
I have read all these comments, and all I can think is that Dittoheads and Beckheads are morons. If this is what passes for intelligent discourse, we are all doomed. BTW – before you think I am some socialist follower of the great Obama, I will admit that it is possible that the healthcare bill could be a piece of trash and may be unconstitutional. The court will decide the latter, as it should. I will admit that I do not know enough about it to make an informed decision, but I sure as heck refuse to spout inanities heard from some third rate, pandering media blowhard. Give me facts, reasons, logic and solutions, please.
Are you going to take your own advice and post some of that fact and logic?
Seriously… no more posting. It is no longer productive.
Cassandra, you simply ignore the fact the USA does not have the money for Obamacare. What would you propose, printing more fiat money? Did you receive everything you wanted as a child? There are things we must forego in life, such as ideas and desires we do not have the money for.
if you think Obamacare is the solution to your health care problems I say you are crazy. this will be the start of your problems. this bill will prove to be the worst thought out, most expensive disaster in American history. Don’t anybody kid themself, this bill in its current form will never go into effect.
Can some one explain to me why a doctor gets paid commision for sell prescriptions drugs, to the tune of hundreds of thousands per year. Or why drug companies advertise so you can go to your doctor and tell him what you need. Or why at age 62 medical insurance for me and my wife is $2,000.00 per month. Or why medical insurance companies have to see how many times they get charge for the same thing. The system is corrupt the same as the banking system, some how it need to be fixed. Just because you work some place that pays your insurance so you do not know the real cost does not mean it is OK.
Obama is overmatched for the job at best and is disloyal to our ideals, at worst.
Health reform is only about redistribution of wealth. Here is an idea, if you can’t afford kids then don’t have them! Whatever happened to working for what you have instead of crying about what others have achieved, that you desire.
Bigger government is never the answer. Our government does two thing well. They collect taxes well and wage war real well. That is it.
And no, I do not hate Obama because of his skin color. I hate Obama because he lies and hates America.
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana.
As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all the other monkeys with cold water. After a while another monkey makes the attempt with same result, all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.
Now, put the cold water away. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs.
To his shock, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs he will be assaulted.
Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one.
The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.
Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs he is attacked.
Most of the monkeys that are beating him up have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing all of the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana.
Why not?
Because as far as they know, that is the way it has always been done around here.
And that, my fellow monkeys, is how Congress operates….
Is it November yet? If only CT wasn’t being represented by that a$$hat Chris Dodd, we’d probably be among the states fighting Osambacare as well.
Kudos to VA for fighting the good fight.
After reading all these posts, I am disappointed. I think changes will be made to Obamacare. Let’s give our legislators IDEAS on ways to change it. Make catastrophic insurance available with a high deductible for a simple policy that will work for most individuals. Have plastic surgery options on insurance policies. For people with pre-existing conditions, put them in the Medicare program. The citizens of this country did not want Medicare, but it was pushed on them. So now that everyone is paying in to it, it would be a good place for those with pre-existing conditions. Lastly, expand the Medicaid program for the working poor. Right now the amount you can earn and get Medicaid is so low that it is impossible for the “working poor” to qualify. Instead of arguing who is left or right, let’s figure out how we can keep the best doctors and health care system in the world AND IMPROVE IT FOR ALL!
Something constructive, for a change.
THANKS
I can’t even comprehend the insanity and hatred encompassed in Chag’s answer…not to mention the prejudice. Was this posted from a survivalist camp in MT?
Vlad, the answer is that we need to look at what the government spends and for what. it is time that the government prioritize expenses as do we all with our own budgets. The wasteful spending has got to be incomprehensible to us normal people. The healthcare system needs to be reviewed. I don’t know about you, but I see incredible waste in excess services, inflated costs, layers and layers of hospital staff each doing a single piece of the care and totally confusing the patient. These guys spend more time tapping into their computers than actually looking at the patient. Sleep clinics? Come on. Have you looked at the stats for opiate perscriptions increase in the WC arena? Poor surgical choices for patients that were doomed to poor outcome?
The healthcare bill is a start. A poor start in many ways, because it is a sick hybrid that satisfies no one, but a start. It is partly such a Frankinstein because at the time, the Dems thought they could get bi partisan support and so allowed every lobbyist in big healthcare and pharma and way too many riders. It is imperfect. B
UT YOU HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE since the healthcare system (or how we insure and proivide it) was WAY overdue to careful scrutiny.
Cassandra, I can not follow your logic. You admit that there is a good amount of wasteful spending in medicare (government run) and then you go one to say the health care bill will fix it?
How? Its like you let the fox watch the hen house, the fox eats a hen, so you say “well Mr. Fox, you ate a hen, that is really bad, and to prevent this from happening again, I am going to put more hens into the hen house” but you still allow the same fox to watch the hen house!?
Casssandra lives in a dream world with no concept of reality. She labels any who disagree as “haters” and she thinks she’s taken the moral high ground when in reality she knows not a whit about human nature, history or the facts about this President and his Muslim leanings, books he’s written, appointments he’s made, statements he’s made (see YouTube) and friends of his.
She’s an example of the liberal “we love everybody” mindset that have been taken advantage of thru out history. Look at Europe and the problems they are having now.
Finally, she has NO logical thinkings at all.
Yes, I know Medicaid is poorly run. We need to clean house. However, that is the most logical place for the working poor to be serviced. We are already paying outrageous prices at emergency rooms for them. However, in our society we take care of those who need it the most with the tax dollars we contribute. We need to ensure those tax dollars are spent wisely. However, we are all going to keep paying taxes whether we like it or not. Placing people with pre-existing conditions in Medicare is logical because the system is already set up. The premiums are low, yet people do have to pay a 20% co-pay (I know because I have an elderly relative on Medicare.) Both of these systems are set up and can be monitored and improved. Then let the rest of us buy the insurance we want from private carriers. The carriers could offer more innovative programs. Also, we should be able to purchase a la carte. I 50 year old male should not have to have an increased premium due to maternity coverage being offered by that carrier. A la carte programs would be a real innovation. If our congress people can get together and get ideas such as these implemented, they could eliminate MOST of Obamacare! By the way, I am a Libertarian, and try to look at what may be best for all of our citizens. I don’t mind paying taxes (would prefer the Fair Tax), but I totally resent the abuse of how my taxes are spent!
I find fault in your logic that “placing pre-existing conditions into medicare is logical” You admit it is in debt, and you just want to put MORE debt into it. “Well, I don’t have anywhere to put my stuff so i guess I have no other option then to place it in a burning building, because hey, the building is already in place”
or if you don’t like that example, you can use my prior post about the Fox and hen house.
Trying to reason and use common sense with Cassandra is like spitting in the wind. It’s a waste of time and it will only blow back into your face. She is a shinning example of what’s wrong with our country.
If you can’t win an argument on the facts you attack the individual and try to discredit him through character assassination. Because I strongly disagree with the policies of the Obama Administration, particularly as they relate to health care, she has labeled me as prejudice and a hater. Apparently Cassandra does not restrict herself to just making uninformed comments about politics and politicians. She has revealed herself as a bias , uninformed individual who has no respect for the facts.
First of all I am a Black Man (surprised), I grew up in the South and I have experienced racism and prejudice first hand. I am feed up with liberals and blacks using allegations of racism to supress free speech. I do not hate Obama; I simply do not agree with his politics and the direction that he is taking this country. as a former Naval Aviator I have put my life on the line for this country. I believe that I have earned the right to express my opinion, free of supression and intimidation.
What have you done for your country, lately? Other that bring us the destroyer in chief. That’s not meant to be hateful. It’s just fact.
Common sense is what you speak of
If you are not being hateful, then do not use hateful languagei in these posts. How about making your points using civil lnguage for starters.
You say that I am illogical, but I don’t see any suggestions that are cogent from you two other than Anne here…just invective.
As for the foxes watching the hen house, I guess we are choosing different foxes. Like the current foxes are doing a good job…so the rate increases, inequitable rate structure, corporate coverage denials, fraud etc., are being well handled by the current foxes???
You tell me I am name calling; most of the posts by you and yours are exactly that and start out like that. Your emails are perfect example.
…Cassandra, however you don’t like to answer specific questions, but rather think doing anything is better than doing nothing.
If I practice a bad golf swing everyday, I will still be a bad golpher, no matter how much practice or effort is used.
Same goes with giving the government your money and expecting to be “careful” with it. They prove time and again they are incapable of the simplest of tasks and yet you want to give them more money, because “they will get it right this time and eliminate the fraud and abuse?”
Again I will state, you trust the government to take care of problems. I trust myself and the free market.
This distinction makes you a socialist and me a capitalist.
Cassandra, apparently you consider comments in disagreement with your thought to be hateful language. You are a very dangerous person because you incriminate others for speaking what they believe to b the truth. Based on your comments it appears that you are not very familiar with the history of our country. The people who founded this country were very passionat in their views and opinios as to how they wanted to be governed.
It was not unusual for fight to breakout in the halls of congress. The South tried to succeed from the union not primiarly due to slavery, but because of the over-bearing natur of President Lincoln’s leadership.
Jefferson, Franklin and Eisenhower all warned us numerous times to beware of a overreaching Federak Government. Alexis De Toqueville warned us that once the people realise that they can vote themselves benefits from the federal treasury, our government will be lost. Our constitution does not give the federal government the power and authority that it has assumed.
Citizens such as you, who believe that strong objections to an overreching Federal Government is hate speach give aid and comfort to an already corrupt bureaucracy. Too many people are taken in by Barack Obama due to the color of his skin rather than the content of his character. He is not nearly as smart as he is given credit for. You must review your history.
OK, Vlad. So, what do you suggest? You have to agree that the current foxes have not done good jobs. You fear the foxes I would rather see in charge…so…what’s your solution? Obviously the “invisible hand” of capitalism has not worked as yet or so far.
So..I may be a “socialist” in your mind and you may be a “capitalist” in yours, but we are both citizens and we do need some solutions.
The healthcare bill, as imperfect as it is, is not a socialist plot. At last, it has opened dialogue on a very serious issue that is affecting your taxes and mine, our position on humanitarian care for illegals, providing our fellow citizens with access and care at reasonable cost, curbing fraud and excesses of private industry (I hope). Of course, all that dialogue should have taken place BEFORE the bill was passed…but such is our govenrnmantal system that it sadly, did not.
Thank you for your response and the civil tone of it.,
Chag, review your history as well. Eisenhower also warned of the “military industrial complex” and so it has come to pass as we see by all the lucrative lobbying that big corps (including big unions) fund on Capitol Hill.
Did you forget your hisotry about the many that fought for safety laws? For child labor laws? For minimum wages? For workers compensation? for civil rights? For unemployment compensation? the union workers murdered at the gates of Ford Motor company for striking for fair wage? For the miners that had to become Molly Macguires to get somewhat safer working conditions? Think a lot of those folks might be the ones you want to label as “liberals” and paint as wild eyed thoughtless creatures….
Think again.
I thought we were discussing the Federal Government. Nearly all of the things that you identified fall under States Rights(Laws). You mention the negative value of the Military Industrial Complex. Yet, you put your trust in politicians put in place by that very group.
Do you know that the very first government installed in this country by the Pilgrims was socialism (good intentions). They nearly perished as a result. It was changed to capitalism and the Pilgrims were able to enjoy their first thanksgiving. Our current administration does not believe in capitalism. Are we to stand silent and watch the greatest government ever install by man be destroyed in one presidential term?
As Americans we must stop fighting each other over small things and come together. We have a Federal Government tat is trying to replace our God. The Pilgrims learned early on that the Government cannot be allowed steal the labor of one man and give it to another.
…I think I have made myself clear on how it should be handled, that is, through the free market system. Again to repeat myself, the Medicare and Medicaid spending is unsustainable without large tax increases. If you want socialism, you have to pay for it.
I am not defining you as a socialist “in my mind”, but rather using the definition of the word socialism. If you have a problem with the definition, you need to bring it up with Merriam-Webster.
Lastly, your post about illegals does not concern me as an American citizen(it does concern me as a human and it should concern their leaders). They are citizens of another country and should be taken care of by the country from where they came, it is not the responsiblity of the citizens of the United States of America.
PS I would like to point out I am not very bright as proof of my previous post using “Golpher” instead of “Golfer”. That could be why am not a very good golfer(or speller).
PPS there is compassion on all sides, liberal, moderate and conservative, we just have different ideas on how to achieve our goals.
Vlad…but the free market system in healtcare is not working…as evidenced by the rising and apparently uncontrollable cost to the pyors, by the level of profits expected, by the fraud allowed, by the fact that it cannot provide for all that deserve.
And, by the way, I TOTALLY agree that the illegals need to be sent home…not what you thought I meant.
Chag, yeah, I read Mayflower also. Hardly an apt comparison of starving, dislocated 17th century pioneers to our current world. I would suggest you look at the social democracies of Scandinavia for a better comparison…and a better view of how it could happen…benefits as well as negatives.
Cassandra, I give up. You have a nice day and a wonderful life.
P.S comparing Scandinavia Democracy to the American Republic is like comparing an Native American tribe to the entire U.S. Government. It does not matter whether it is the 17th century or the 21st century, peoples behaviors have not changed only their technology. You still hold to the premis that the government can force people to act civil towards one another, while stealing and transferring their property to someone else. Good luck with that.
Well we’ve brought just about everything including Scandanavians and the Native Americans into the mix, and the battle lines have been drawn. Bravo! as long as we continue to attack each other and refuse to find common ground to achieve some type of resolution, we’ll continue to march to the government drum (no matter the party) and eventually implode leaving very nice fractured pieces to be picked up and controlled with even less effort than it requires to control us now. Keep up the good work folks!
We as a people see what the government is trying to pull. Its just that some people buy into the balonga that the government
feeds us (Healthcare included). Thats why we are attacking each other, trying to make the others see what crap the government is trying to fee us. Now, people of both parties are guilty of buying the crap the government gives us as long as the politician that is feeding us the crap has the right letter in front of their name. In my experiance, many people that as soon as they identify themselves as part of a political party, they tend to stop thinking for themselves and let the party think for them instead. Not everyone mind you, but it seems to be a large amount that fall into that catagory.
It is imposible to legislate wealth. As soon as you unfairly take from someone who has earned something and give to someone who has not earned it, he or she will inevitably give it right back to the person who earned it again…
We could legislatively give every democrat in this country 1 million dollars and in 10 years all conservative republicans would have their money back. LOL…..
I honestly believe that this is true due to progressive minded educational system of this country, who is always using the term “make money”, example; (Those upper income brackets “making” more than 250K should pay more in taxes.) What if you change the language to this, ( Those upper income earners, EARNING more than $250 thousand a year. You see the people with money have EARNED it, Those without have not EARNED it!
The Constitution was written to protect States and Individuals from the Federal Government. If there ever was a time we needed to rally around our constitution it is now!
Sarah
Don’t you read the stats that indicate that the middle class has lost significant ground in the past few decades due primarily to inequitable tax laws, namely, the tax give backs of the Bush admin?
The fact remains that it is still easier to live on 60% of 1,000,000 than 90% of 20,000.
The taking has already been done primarily t both blue and white collar to foreign countries? Didn’t you also read that some of these jobs are coming back due to better quality product, press by Chinese workers for higher wages, rising shippoing costs, more compoetitive American labor situation, and lessening chance of information theft and counterfeiting…among other reasons?
One is not doing a Robin Hood but restoring some balance to the imbalance.
Do not wrap your self simplistically in the Consititution; there are other rights involved as well. If the Constitution was designed to be static, we wouldn’t have amendments and a Supreme Court….
C, you are a fool, in my eyes , as, I am sure I am in yours. Congress passes tax law and Pelosi, Reid, et al passed a bunch the last 18 mos of Bush’s term, Do everybody a favor and do you own research of the facts. Your arguments are those crafted by a second grader.
I hope they close this thread………..and C ends up happy. I’m going eat some Bluebell IC.
You’re right! Save your words. Logic bounces off of her like a rubber ball off of a concrete wall. These are the kinds of people who love and support Obama. They also brought Hitler to power.
They never learn from their past mistakes.
Here is a link to Steve Wynn’ interview on CNBC. Everyone should watch this.
http://www.infowars.com/steve-wynn