If this socialist-Obama healthcare system is such a great thing, why is it that all of Congress, their staffers (most especially the staffers who wrote this), and the President, his family and all the White house staffers felt it was so important to exempt themselves from it. When the Republicans proposed that all members of Congress would have to abide by the healthcare legislation they enacted, the Democrats killed that amendment. Even if you are a Democrat, ( I mean socialist) sympathizer, surely that fact has to give you reason to wonder.
Now tell me how the 16,500 IRS agents mandated and paid for by this socialist takeover bill improves my healthcare.
the single payer idea is one of the scariest things I can think of. it would result in a near collapse of the health care system we have had, and a huge decline in the quality of care the majority of Americans have been receiving.
Exactly where did you get the impression that we would save 35% off the top? Ask any healthcare actuary and you will find that whoever gave you that percentage had a political agenda to fill.
Back in 1988, I had a paid internship in England. 9% of my paycheck went to their NHS. I didn’t use it once and never saw a penny back for not doing so. The NHS is a disaster. I have British expatriate neighbors who tell me stories about how their friends clamor for US-based work assignments, simply to get the healthcare. The problem isn’t going to be solved with a mandate. Think about it this way – since when has government been able (or willing) to operate with efficiency? The trillions of dollars in budget deficits and debt we have should give you a clue.
The fact is, you should read up on Constitutional law – specifically the 10th Amendment. The so-called ‘reform’ probably violates it. That’s going to be the argument many opponents use when fighting the law.
SPHC has never worked anywhere. It’s bankrupting Japan, so they cut health care services. And I travel to the UK every year for work and everyone there that has to use it, says that the system stinks.
The British NHS actually employs doctors, which no one is contemplating in the U.S. My daughter has used both the Canadian and U.S. health care financing systems to pay private doctors. She clearly perfers the former system, although no system is without problems and costs.
but other than the increased cost, lack of efficiency, reduced benefits, and lower standard of care, other than those things and the fact Obama won’t use this coverage for his little darlings…other than those things, his healthcare plan is really really good. And he can blame Bush for all the bad things…”I was gonna…put my daughters…on my new um, healthplan…but because of uh, the mess…I’ve inherited for um uh um, the last 8 years…uh, 8 years of uh, failed leadership…I cannot in good faith…put my uh, my kids thru that…Michelle and I will sacrifice the coverage…um, uh, sacrifice to only accept what we um, uh, have now…now I can uh, um, focus um uh on cap and trade…uh um”
I wish the Obama administration would fight the issues on their merit rather than on legal technicalities. This one they are trying to throw out because they say states have no standing to sue (even if it violates the Constitution) and the Arizona law because it is the National government’s responsibility to ignore rather than the State’s responsibility to enforce.
Obama is overmatched for the job at best and is disloyal to our ideals, at worst.
Health reform is only about redistribution of wealth. Here is an idea, if you can’t afford kids then don’t have them! Whatever happened to working for what you have instead of crying about what others have achieved, that you now desire.
Bigger government is never the answer. Our government does two thing well. They collect taxes well and wage war real well. That is it.
And no, I do not hate Obama because of his skin color. I hate Obama because he lies and hates America.
The NHS is not a “disaster”. Does it have it’s challenges? Yes. But it is far from broken. Patients may have to wait 18 weeks for non-emergency procedures, but when was the last time you tried to book an appointment with a specialist in the U.S.? The wait can be just as long.
For those that want it, private insurance is available and is provided by many employers. But for the majority, the NHS provides adequate health care coverage.
The fact that someone is without health care coverage in this country is not indicative of wanting what others have without having to work for it. Many people work 2 and 3 jobs just to support themselves and their families and are not fortunate enough to work for a company that offers health benefits. We in the insurance industry take this fact for granted.
Socialized medicine would ensure that EVERYONE (not just white collar workers) get the medical treatment they need. Surely this is a right and not a privilege. If it is not, it should be.
“Socialized medicine would ensure that EVERYONE (not just white collar workers) get the medical treatment they need. Surely this is a right and not a privilege. If it is not, it should be.”
Everyone has the RIGHT to healthcare in the US already. They just do not have the right to force others to pay for it, which is the path you recommend.
If you wish healthcare to become a “right” bestowed upon all Americans, there is already a process for that. This process is known a the amendment process, by which the Constitution of the United States is altered lawfully. Hate to break it to you, but just because you want to force socialized healthcare on all Americans, whether they want it or not (which polls show American DO NOT want), does not mean the Constitution bends to your personal whims.
As for seeing a specialist, I just made an appointment with an orthopedist today. My appointment is Thursday afternoon. Not in 18 weeks.
Please explain to me why I should pay more, and have to wait for inferior service, all because you want to take from my family and bestow upon another family who doesn’t work as hard (or smart), did not attend and pay for higher education, or has decided to spend their money elsewhere.
This Madoff-Care scam, passed by the leftist Democrat Party, is a giant tax bill aimed at lining the pockets of the insurance companies and trial lawyers, while driving up costs on every responsible American who actually pays for themselves (i.e. the hardworking).
BTW, my wife also has Marfan, and is required to get testing at Stanford Med Center every 6 months. The care is superb, yet costly. However, we PAY for our health insurance.
Also, everyone currently does have access to health coverage. It is called Medicaid, which was supposed to be the answer LAST TIME. However, the leftist Democrats are not looking for answers to solve healthcare problems. They are looking merely to pay constituencies and troll for votes, all at taxpayers’ expense…literally.
READ THE BILL! It is an abomination. It is a scam. It is Madoff-Care.
This is not a constitutional issue any more than social security, medicare, or medicaid is a constitutional issue. Not everyone has the luxury of higher education or is lucky enough to have an above average IQ. Does this mean they should suffer? You need to realize there are people out there that need help from society through no fault of their own. That’s what a society does. It takes care of it’s people. Privileged folks seem to forget that. Would you be against some type of socialized medicine if it was guaranteed not to cost the taxpayers more? Are you against this in principle or just because you’re afraid it might affect your bottom line? Selfish, selfish, selfish…
first of all, health care should be available to all, if they want it. secondly, i should not have to be forced to accept it, if i don’t want it nor fined because i decided against it. what we truly need is a reform on costs of the medical industry. why should it cost more for pills than generic which do the same? why should i pay extra for an xray tech to review my xray when the doctor is doing that anyway? why do we give money to our flex spending for our healthcare and yet, when we ask for an approval or refund of my money, it’s not approved? for example, i a otc vitamin and normally it’s covered under flex spending if a brand name, but i chose the generic and it was denied. if i have receipts from the doctor of money i paid to him for a bill, why can’t the flex spending folks accept the bill w/o having us get a copy of the actual biling to our HMO? in many cases, we don’t even need drugs to help us, but doctors and pharmecutical companies are in cohoots to make money. health care should not be like shopping for furniture for my house/apt. health care should be the same for all, no matter the status of income.
There’s an easy way to beat this: take the pledge. Sign a binding contract that you will never use healthcare in the United States and post it publicly. If you do that, Congress can’t regulate you and the whole debate is over. If you don’t sign it, then you are engaging in interstate commerce and Congress can do what it pleases. That’s what the Supreme Court says (see wickard v filburn, recently praised by Justice Scalia). So, show your courage, take the pledge! If you don’t have the courage, we know where you REALLY stand. I think we will quickly find out who really feels strongly about this and who is just ranting.
Where do I begin with what is wrong with this post?
1. The contract would null and void because it lacks “legal purpose” (the reason why you can’t hold up a contract that it’s purpose is breaking the law) because we are required by law to carry health insurance now.
2. If you live in the States, you are going to have to use a medical faculity sooner or later. Let’s say you were involved in a horrible accident and were injured very badly, the medics are not going to say “Oh he signed a paper that says he is not going to use America’s health care system, so we have to leave him to die” (plus they would not have that right on their person).
Mike N, I agree with your comments 100%. I have a suggestion – why don’t you send your bill for your Thursday orthopedist appointment, and the bills for your wife’s Marfan testing, directly to Not Sarcastic and Cassandra. Tell them that you directed your health care providers to bill them directly for this, and that they are selfish if they don’t pay up. Doesn’t matter that they don’t even know you; if they are compassionate, they will pay for your orthopedist appointment and your wife’s Marfan testing without putting up a fuss. See what they say then!
I’m an idiot? Because I suggested that if you think we should all pay for each other’s healthcare, it should start with you? Don’t you want to stand by what you are suggesting? Hmmm……
but it would help that those who can work, work to help cover the costs like anyone else. those folks that live on welfare forever, need to find a job, even if it is picking up trash along the highway.
You are missing the point. Obama wants as many people as possible on the public dole, while vilifying the ‘rich”. The more people on extended unemployment benefits and welfare etc, the more votes for the socialists. It is all about staying in power and not what is best for the country. Next is to make all the illegals into dems/voters.
If the intent was really to cover the uninsured, there was a much cheaper way of going about it. And how could they ever shove this healthcare down our throats without addressing tort reform?
Unless you are making more than $200k, are a pharmaceutical or medical device manufacturer, or a health insurance carrier this bill will not cost you anything. In fact, according to the CBO, the legislation will reduce the deficit by $143 billion[4] over the first decade and by $1.2 trillion in the second decade, as compared to current legislation.[79][80] The CBO has revised its estimates several times, initially projecting a savings of $132 billion, then $118 billion, and later $138 billion.[81][82] The CBO estimates the cost of the first decade at $940 billion, $923 billion of which takes place during the final six years (2014—2019) when the benefits kick in.[82][83] The CBO also projects revenue will exceed spending during these six years.[84]
And transmission fluid tastes like candy.
Just because you say something is fact, doesn’t mean it is. I would be interested in seeing how they figure it will decrease the deficit.
One thing you mention in your opening line is “Unless you are making more than $200k, are a pharmaceutical or medical device manufacturer, or a health insurance carrier this bill will not cost you anything.” Ah, the key is costing HEALTH INSURANCE CARRIERS. If their costs go up, in order to stay solvent, they have to increase their rates. When they increase their rates, then the people that are for a single payer system will use it to villify the “greedy insurance companies”.
Actually, society is different than the government. The government is merely the official apparatus of the state. My family and I give thousands of dollars annually to private charities, organizations, adoption service orgs, and nonprofit healthcare providers of the poor and needy. Based upon your ranting here, I seriously doubt you share the make the same commitment to “society”.
Of course, thanks to taxes going up, increasing healthcare costs (due to the leftist democrat party’s Madoff-Care health scam and their desire to pay off sickening trial lawyers), and other fees which have increased, these service organizations will get far less from us this year, as the government has absconded that money.
There is a reason why, even with lower incomes and a bit lower education levels, studies have shown conservatives give far more to charity than leftists. Conservative ideaology demands individuals take responsibility and work to improve their communites.
Leftists, on the other hand, seem to care only about what the government can steal from producers, by force, then distribute to non-producers, without the leftist even having to care a wit or do a thing. It’s called being generous with other people’s money. It is a sign of weak morality and a true lack of interest in personally helping the poor and needy. Rather, it is merely a process by which votes can be bought by unscrupulous politicians, spending the spoils from the hard work of others.
And that is only after the leftists have stolen from the tables of families across this nation, then TAKEN THEIR SKIM OFF THE TOP – you know, like the mafia – that a smal amount is given to those in need.
Also, when a charity or service organization is found to misappropriate money, act solely in self-interest, or straight out embezzle, that organization can be shut down, with money redirected to organizations proven to be on the level. However, with government one cannot get rid of the scumbags and waste, which explains why we have career politicians. The waste, fraud, and abuse which is shown daily by state and federal governments is a testament to that fact.
Ultimately, it is sick and weak minded persons, such as yourself, who have foisted this upon our country, families, and taxpayers. Every dime you work to steal from me is stolen via government fiat from my children. Every dollar in taxes absconded by the power-hungry whores to special interests is time stolen from my life with my wife, children, family and friends. And time is truly the only thing in life that is unrecoverable.
You are a perfect example of the sickening state of mind that creates dependency, theft, and government corruption. You are the poster child for what is wrong with our country.
You are either a liar, or a fool who has not bothered to read the bill, instead focusing on spouting hack talking points.
1. Every w-2 will reflect the cost of employer-paid health insurance benefits. This has been done in order to begin taxing benefits.
2. Every single health plan, due speficially to requirements in this Madoff-Care scam of a bill, will rise in cost, due specifically to government regulation. That is a de facto tax. To say otherwise is to lie through your teeth.
3. Each and every American, due to this Madoff-Care scam, will be forced to purchase LTC insurance, either through an employer sponsored plan, or through a new government scam (i.e. another way, much like social security and medicare, for leftist democrats to raid the system of money to buy off their favored constituencies, thereby rendering the program financially insolvent – then come more tax increases!). Therefore the government will forcibly take more money from you and your family.
4. This Madoff-Care scam bill also have provisions where many screenings, whose costs are now borne by those who become afflicted by the chosen diseases, will be “free of charge”. This means that every single healthcare plan will have to charge every single insured to cover diabetes screenings, cancer screening and testing, innoculations, all pregnancy testing, etc. This is, once again, a de facto tax on all insured across this nation.
Anyone who supports this bill, and says it is a step in the right direction is either:
1. A liar.
2. A political hack, trying to buy more votes.
3. A lazy fool who has not read the bill.
4. A fool who cannot understand the words in front of them.
My question to you is, into which category do you fall?
You don’t understand. You are not smart enough to decide where you donate your after tax dollars. The Big Government can do much better by taxing your earnings and deciding who should get your dollars. Will probably go to some crybaby who has no sense of personal responsibility, or some mother of ten who has no idea how to feed, educate, assimilate, or care for them, or to help build a islamic mosque at ground zero.
And why would you worry with good honest people like Charlie Rangel and Maxine Waters looking after our country.
MY ranting?? I don’t think I went on for 8 paragraphs like you just did.
You don’t know me and have no idea about what charitable contributions I make. I don’t need to go around telling everyone about the “thousands of dollars” I spend. Pat yourself on the back there, Mike.
I am neither sick or weak-minded. Nor am I an example of what is wrong with this country. It’s greedy, right-wing, holier-than-thou, corporate theives that are what is wrong with this country. Notice how I did not put you in this category? Why? Because I don’t know you! You don’t have to be rude and make this personal…
Don’t you fools read ANYTHING other than Fox news trailers?
1. We ALREADY pay for the uninsured (as well as the uninsured illegal aliens) with our tax dollars as well as our private carrier insurance premiums…so what’s your problem here?
2. The healthcare system was/is already crashing…or didn’t you notice your co pays increasing as well as your proportion of premium as well as the premiums paid by your employer this past 10 years or so…so what’s your problem?
3. You are presubmably insurance professionals of some sort…don’t you read about the scams and frauds perpetrated by some medical providers…so what’s your problem
4. Don’t you read anything? Didn’t you see the articles about the healthcare providers in CA and elsewhere that have or wanted to increase rates up to 19%…and the companion articles showing that their reserves are three to four times higher than needed for claims costs projected? They are “billing” before they are hurt.
5. Don’t you read various money publications which show the profits and bonuses made by the these companies and their corporate heads?
6. Don’t you read about the denials of coverage after the fact for folks who come down with costly diseases or illnesses?
You are too mired in your own blowhard rhetoric to open your eyes. You complain about Obamacare on one hand and then condemn this bill as a sop to big business. Well, who forced that? You are too mired in your own smug sanctimony to see that part of this bill was supposed to (and hopefully does) rectify the glaring inequities of the private system which is not designed to cover all (they allegedly do underwrite, after all)and so who will cover those people?
You are very smug with company paid insurance and non underwritten acceptance for coverage. Betcha that before the feds made a law the wife with Marfans would have been declined if Mr. conservative had changed jobs and carriers. then you would have been on the bunker with me….
And how DARE you question my contribution to charitable organizations. Well, Mr. Smuggo, not only do I give thousands, but I also give of my time and my home, so just keep patting yourself on the back and think you are unique in all the world.
I can’t believe that most of you actually BELIEVE what you say…
Again, I ask…what CONCRETE suggestions would you make to help the deserving uninsured, control healthcare costs (other than your tort reform mantra, which in many cases is spot on, I agree), curb the abuses of the private carriers (underwriting after the claim, runaway cost increases), curb the fraud???
When you are supporting the government stealing my life away through taxation, then it is indeed personal. When you support government action that takes money from my parents insurance through Medicare (for which they ALREADY PAID – BY FORCE – through gross government fiat), then it is personal. When you support requiring me to work longer hours (thereby stealing my ability to raise and spend time with my children) to make the same amount of money (due to having to shoulder a greater tax burden), then you better believe it is personal. To think otherwise is foolish, shortsighted and an affront to common sense.
You had written about how greedy conservatives are, when it is primarily conservatives who VOLUNTARILY give to the needy in far greater numbers than statists like yourself. So, the response was not only warranted, it was almost required to combat your outright misrepresentations.
One can be a strong, self-sufficient individual, who produces and adds to society. One can, in turn, be a lazy dreg who lives off the goods stolen from others. Those who are truly invalids and suffer extreme maladies are few and far between. And it is the moral responsibility to those in LOCAL communities to give time and treasure to ensure those weakest among us receive help from PRIVATE, VOLUNTARY donations, which exist in this country in far greater numbers per capita than any other nation on earth.
Then there are those who espouse extra-Constitutional theft by an overarching federal government, in order to steal something for themselves, and make themselves feel better about absconding and redistributing OTHERS’ hard earned incomes to their own chosen constituencies. This approach steals the only truly precious gift each of us has…our time.
So, when you personally support increasing my insurance costs (which this Madoff-Care scam of a bill does), increasing my taxes, (i.e. stealing more of my life away from my family, children, and friends), forcing me into insurance plans I do not want (which this Madoff-Care scam of a bill does), and making it more difficult for my family to receive proper care (which this Madoff-Care scam of a bill does – if you doubt me, speak with your doctor – as I have to numerous doctors), then indeed you have made it personal.
That is the problem with statists like you. You don’t care about the repercussions of your actions, or who it effects. This, by the way, is the same approach and attitude George III and Parliament took, which brought on the American Revolution. When your life is being taken from you by government fiat, without consideration of your rights and freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution, you damn well better believe it is absolutely personal. The fact you do not recognize this is a sad reflection on your mindset.
You need to take a pill and relax. I imagine you are foaming at the mouth about now. Quit all your name-calling and labeling of people. It only shows your true ignorance. People are much more complex that the left/right, black/white picture you wish to paint. Insulting me without knowing a thing about me is the epitomy of a “sad reflection on your mindset”. I feel sorry for you that you have so much anger, resentment, and hate inside you. I really hope you don’t spend much time with your children so your vitriol doesn’t ruin their chances of being intellegient, open-minded, adults some day. Now it’s time for you to shut up.
I hate to break it to you, but any person who believes the government can do a better job deserves any kind of scorn heaped their way, including you.
Government track record:
– Medicare – BROKE
– Meidcaid – BROKE
– Social Security – BROKE
Seems to me, if one takes reality into account, the biggest “hateful slogan” is trusting the federal government to manage any part of our lives, which you support by supporting this Madoff-Care scam of a bill.
To address your points:
1. we will now be paying EVEN MORE for the uninsured, thanks to this scam. Our costs have all risen dramatically, thanks to this Madoff-Care bill you support.
2. 95 out of every 100 doctors, on average has been sued. In talking with doctors and nurses from Stanford Med Ctr, UC David Med Ctr, and Oakland Children’s Hospital, the consistent number cited, in respect to procedures ordered simply for defensive medicical purposes, is 40% of ALL PROCEDURES. So, when you dismiss lawsuits as one of the main purpetrators of costs, you are missing the main point, and make your arguments look foolish.
If the leftists really wanted to bring down costs two things would occur:
A. Tort reform – Which Howard Dean admits the leftists refused to confront, just so they could continue to receive ill-gotten, immoral campign funds.
B. Implementing low-cost plans where the insured pays for doctors visits and minor testing out-of-pocket, with major testing, ambulance, and hospital care being an 80/20 split between insured and carrier.
C. Stop forcing private insurance plans to subsidize Medicare, as is currently the case. The government low-balls the cost schedule for Medicare, which means doctors, hospitals, and ambulance companies increase costs for private patients with insurance.
D. Get rid of the majority of state mandates, which are huge drivers of cost – see below.
3. Yes, you are correct, I understand insurance. the majority of fraud occurs in government programs – like Medicare and Madicaid. Of course, the government doesn’t go after those thieves, as they represent a voting block. When fraud occurs on the part of carriers (who I consider no angels themselves, but vastly better than the thieves in government, living off our tax dollars), there is a system by which they are prosecuted and pay for their crimes. That is how it should be. If you are a corporation found guilty of fraud, you can be sued out of existence. And I can also always change carriers. That doesn’t happen to government programs – which is what you espouse with this scam of a bill. Unfortunately, we cannot sue the feds out of existence. So, quite honestly, by supporting this bill, I would posit you are for GREATER fraud and abuse.
4. Did that increase gain approval ultimately? Was that increase implemented (BTW it was 40% – for specific plans, not across the board on all the plans offered by the carrier, so please do your homework before accusing me of not doing mine)? It was not. Why? Because this private company realized bad press would kill them. The government program you support will not be required to react in that same manner, making the problems even worse, almost intractably.
5. Yes, I do read these publications. Unfortunately, it seems you lack financial training enough to understand the difference between profit dollars and profit margins. The profit margins for carriers are less than or equal to those in the grocery business. They sit at less than 5%. that places this industry in the bottom 5% of all industries in respect to profit margin. Once again, do your homework.
6. The only legal way a carrier can deny coverage to an insured, AFTER THE FACT, is if the insured can be proven to have hidden a previously existing condition. Now, some may have been non-renewed due to loss concerns. But that is due to their inability to raise cost ssufficiently to pay for these people. If you are aware of how carriers must get approval for rates, you would understand this issue. It seems you are not and do not.
For the record, requiring carriers to offer insurance to those with pre-existing conditions is probably the only portion of this terrible scam I agree with. My caveat is those with these conditions should have to pay their fair share for the increased cost of care. Please see my suggestion in answer 2.B, which covers how this could be done.
I am not mired in my own rhetoric, I am just tired of lazy people who, rather than find answers to complex problems that work, instead turn to suck the teat of government – paid for by money taken from others, and their families. A government that cannot even tell you where the money they steal from us truly goes. Billions of dollares of waste occur, without even the appearance of financial propreity on the part of those wasting the money.
BTW, for the record, we own a business where the insurance in covered, 100%, by us, the employer. So, don’t be so “smug” when my family – through my wife’s company – is one of those not only covering myself and my family, but covering every employee of the company’s monthly plan costs IN FULL.
As for questioning your contributions to charity, it seems you may be the exception to the rule. Most people who lather for more government are usually those giving the absolute least to help those in need, which has been statistically proven. And I am sick and tired of being told I am not giving enough, or that I am immoral for not supporting this Madoff-Care scam, by people who have been proven to be stingy and unwilling to assist their communities through time and treasure. Once again, if what you claim is true, you are the rare exception to the rule.
Based upon your obvious pining for government to increase its control over your life, I can see why you could not believe I actually believe what I say. Freedom and responsibility seem to be a foreign language to leftists.
So, as for my “CONCRETE” suggestions, please see above, where I laid them out pretty plainly.
I will leave you with one last thought, before I have to go back to work to support massive government fraud and abuse (when is “Tax Freedon Day thisyear? Oh yeah, some time in MAY!): one of the biggest drivers of healthcare costs are government mandates. For example, in California, EVERY HEALTHCARE PLAN must include coverage for chiropractic (the utilization of which, by the way, is one of the greatest drivers of fraud and abuse in the healthcare system). We all pay for that. whether or not we want it. And there are dozens of similar cost drivers, implemented via leftist government fiat.
I suggest you do some homework on this topic. It seems you operate on cheap bromides and whatever anecdotes you can get your hands upon through news agencies. Instead I recommend you actually learn about the topic, find multiple sources for information, study historical data and gain an understanding as to how an industry that ran well 20-30 years ago has been rendered unmanageable and virtually destroyed today.
And PLEASE SPEND TIME READING THIS BILL! Anyone who supports this bill either hasn’t read it, or doesn’t understand it or the industry. If you spend time understanding this scam, which no politician who voted for it did, you will not support it. It will become obvious to you this is designed to increase costs, force you to buy coverage you don’t want and don’t need, and line the pockets of trial lawyers, insurance companies, and drug manufacturers, all at taxpayer expense.
“Calm down about me doing everything I can to steal from you and your family” is the essence of your response? I would posit my 6 year old is already more developed, in respect to “being intellegient” and “open-minded” than you, as he could have summoned his intellect to profer a better response than “shut up.” Then again, that seems perfectly in step with the depth of your input to this board. You might want to stop stamping your feet for a few minutes and change your screen name to Veruca Salt.
A.Tort Reform – 100% agreement
b. Agree although the 20% could still be financially devasting depnding on illness/disease. Provisions would need to be made
c. Agree, although I would think a more careful selection of those that get in and fraud involved (passing around IDs, SS cards) is totally warranted as well
d. Couldn’t agree more especially with chiropractic. Do a lot of CA WC…Chiro a blight and creeping back in as reforms are diluted
3. Agree. Fraud on both sides. Do not agree that lawsuits will drive frauding corps out of business…or at least in enough time for good rememdy and cessation of harm to consumers
4. Yes, thankfully someone was monitoring. Had no one been watching, they would have gotten away with it.
5. You make a point. Poor choice of words, but note that corporations in this country sek ALWAYS to show the lowest profit they can so that they can pay the least taxes they can. If they can afford to pay some of the salaries and bonuses they seem to be able, then it would appear they might be able to show higer profit margins…
6. Oh, sorry. Inaccurate wording. By stalling authorizations and denying various procedures….The cancelling comes after they realize that one of their insureds has developed a costly disease/illness. All perfectly legal, of course.
I will not respond to all the rest of the personal barbs. Suffice it to say I do read and understand as much as you do. I do, in fact, contribute as I say…no lie. And yes, I did read almost all of the bill.
but I ask you to note that what you suggest and what I agree with is just not that far from the same thing.
And I do very much THANK YOU for the CONCRETE suggestions and (more) civil tone…no sarcasm intended
It appears we all want the same things. And we agree on many points. The argument comes with how we get there, not whether we need to get there or not. I never said the current bill was the best way. But it is what we have right now and we need to evaluate and improve on it. It is hard to come together with viable solutions when insults are being hurled at you because of miscommunication or lack of understanding. The divisiveness needs to stop in order for us to make this country better.
well, i agree we need health care available for all and it to be proper care not just here take 2 pills and check back next week. but i have a fear that we need to get our illegals out of the country because those of us that do pay taxes and earn a proper living above the table, deserve our rights. we need to get stronger in our attack on companies that hire illegals but don’t pay their taxes or other benefits that most americans have, including those with visas from other countries. a properly employed person, or those that have retired or disabled, deserve proper health care. it’s the matter of how to address it without any more costs to the american people as a whole. we already have forked out too much money on companies that we should have left alone. we could have used that money elsewhere. if you have followed anything about AIG, we are losing our skins because of more lawsuits being draining any capital it has. problem, most of the money left is the government money and that will go as well. this company should have been allowed to go bankrupt w/o government support. that money should have been placed in better use. for example medicaid or medicare!
While I agree with your end-game, getting as many people to have access to health insurance as possible, what I do not agree with is increasing the already too heavy load upon the shoulders of those of us working hard for a living and business owners.
Life is short. It is a zero sum game. I cannot bargain for or earn more time. The more the government takes by way of taxation, higher costs through mandates, and increased regulation, the harder one has to work to support their family and enjoy life. In essence, when more is taken in way of money, this is tantamount to stealing time away from my life, as more time must then be devoted to work, just to stay even, much less get ahead.
Therefore, ANY person that is pushing for either higher taxes, greater regulation (most often, since it seems the government is most inept at accomplishing nearly anything, and usually kills opportunity for the most part – though obviously there is great need for government…just far more at the local level, rather than federal. There is a reason the Constitution lined out specific roles for the government; to limit abuse), or increased intervention, is truly supporting theft of more of my life. Note, this is time I cannot get back, and which is not longer spent with my wife, children, friends, family, or the “pursuit of happiness”. This is why I take this all so personally.
Consider one pays income tax (39% fed, 10% state), sales tax (just about 9%), hundreds of added fees (take a look at your next phone bill or cell bill, just as one example), property taxes (thousands – even with prop 13 in effect), gas taxes ($.30/gallon), usage fees, and the multitude of taxes which are paid by vendors, makers of products, distributors, etc. – all of which are hidden from consumers, yet are still factored into the cost of goods one buys. Once one begins to calculate the actual tax burden, it is absolutely sickening.
At the same time, consider the programs the government has put together. Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are all nearing bankruptcy, and on a collision course for failure. Note, they misappropriated the money. It has been stolen and used for other purposes. Hell, the only true disbursements the government has explicit Constitutional directives to outlay are Defense and Border Security (leaving treasury out of the equation). The defense department is awash in waste (though they are the only government entity – aside from the IRS – that actually achieves success. And I don’t count the IRS as a success – surprise!), and the border is more porous than a seive.
So, when we consider nearly everything the federal government has touched, we see nothing more than failure, lies, broken promises, waste, fraud and abuse. And that comes from BOTH sides of the aisle (though one side, due to its mentaility and philosophy, has far more to answer for in my book).
And let’s not even talk about education.
So, I always come back to this point – how many times will we keep walking into the same wall, banging our heads into yet another failure of the federal government until we finally wake up and say “enough!”?
We can all agree the health insurance system in this country needs a lot of work. However, the health delivery system is still one of the best in the world, as about 90% of us have access to primaries, specialists, the best med centers, etc. It isn’t cheap, that’s for sure. At the same time, I think that has more to do with the way insurance is delivered and managed (BTW, health insurance is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the US), as well as programs like Medicare, which overpromised and doesn’t pay its way. I can call my doctor on his cell phone. I can call one of the best heart specialists in the US, on his cell phone. I can call my orthopedist on his cell phone. And I can get an appointment with any of them within 2 weeks (and it’s only that long for the heart dr.).
But this bill is an absolute scam. What was promised: lower costs, more covered, you can keep your plan if you like it, was not delivered at all. The grandfathering rules for current plans make it impossible for anyone to keep them after the next couple years. Our costs, due to mandates and executive orders, will skyrocket faster, and this plan will not cover any more people than are now covered. In fact, based upon the increases in cost, I would posit far more will have to give up coverage and go to medicaid – you know, that bankrupt system they’ve already been raiding for decades.
And the people that put it together admit (ADMIT!) they refused to act to control the biggest systemic drain – tort reform – because they valued campign cash more than the American populace.
The divisiveness you speak of is what happens when your pantry is raided by politicians to dole out goodies to others. When my children are getting less into their college funds to pay for congresspeople to hand out goodies to get reelected, you better believe it is divisive. When chunks of my life are stolen, you better believe it is divisive.
To give an example: when someone robs a bank, is that “divisive”? Why? Because the hard earned money one has worked for is now gone. That’s exactly what is happening.
The difference between what you and I view as acceptable, based upon what I’ve read here, is that I feel one volunteering their time and treasue to the community is praiseworthy, virtuous, and honorable. And there is ALWAYS the need to give to your LOCAL community. You, on the other hand, seem to view it as praiseworthy, virtuous, and honorable for the government to take at will, by force of law, and dole it out to others as a pathway to more votes, power and personal aggrandizement for themselves. Though you may feel differently about it, that is the net effect.
One thing I am sure of, without any doubts whatsoever, the government will fail at this, as it has with every single program it has in the past. And our lives are on the line with this one. And you cannot name one politician, past or present, that I trust to do this for the betterment of the country, or who could handle the job.
So, to end an extremely long response (yet again), I view anyone siding with the failures in government, out to steal my life away through taxation, regulation, and control, as a direct threat to my life, my family’s well being, and that of the country at large. The divisiveness begins when someone is coming at me to take from me by force. I am merely reacting to this fact. So, if we want to end the divisiveness, stop trying to steal my life, my work, my time with my kids, my time with my wife, and stop trying to place controls on my life and freedom.
That is what ends divisiveness. End it by never beginning the process, and viola!, the divisiveness evaporates.
At the same time, I have a question for you. Why is it you do not see the threat to your freedoms and life the federal gvoernment represents and foists upon you daily? That is what puzzles me.
see, I spent a good chunk of my workday responding and philosophising on this board. If my taxes were lower, I could spend more time in debate like this, which I enjoy. Or, I could be home right now playing guitar, or playing with my kids. Instead, I have to work to make money, less than half of which will make its way into my bank account. How can that be justified?
I agree, stop the divisiveness. Stop an out of control government that is stealing our lives away.
I usually find myself disagreeing with you but these last posts are somethng to work with. Mike, I agree that the taqxstion is burdensome but because I do not think we are getting value for our money. I think our Congress (both parites) have become accustomed to their perks and arrogant with their power.
Our choices are poor for this election…we have to swerve between one pendulum apogee to another. Not good.
If this socialist-Obama healthcare system is such a great thing, why is it that all of Congress, their staffers (most especially the staffers who wrote this), and the President, his family and all the White house staffers felt it was so important to exempt themselves from it. When the Republicans proposed that all members of Congress would have to abide by the healthcare legislation they enacted, the Democrats killed that amendment. Even if you are a Democrat, ( I mean socialist) sympathizer, surely that fact has to give you reason to wonder.
Now tell me how the 16,500 IRS agents mandated and paid for by this socialist takeover bill improves my healthcare.
Institute single payer. Save 35% off the top. There! No one is “forced ” to purchase health insurance.
the single payer idea is one of the scariest things I can think of. it would result in a near collapse of the health care system we have had, and a huge decline in the quality of care the majority of Americans have been receiving.
Exactly where did you get the impression that we would save 35% off the top? Ask any healthcare actuary and you will find that whoever gave you that percentage had a political agenda to fill.
I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic.
Back in 1988, I had a paid internship in England. 9% of my paycheck went to their NHS. I didn’t use it once and never saw a penny back for not doing so. The NHS is a disaster. I have British expatriate neighbors who tell me stories about how their friends clamor for US-based work assignments, simply to get the healthcare. The problem isn’t going to be solved with a mandate. Think about it this way – since when has government been able (or willing) to operate with efficiency? The trillions of dollars in budget deficits and debt we have should give you a clue.
The fact is, you should read up on Constitutional law – specifically the 10th Amendment. The so-called ‘reform’ probably violates it. That’s going to be the argument many opponents use when fighting the law.
SPHC has never worked anywhere. It’s bankrupting Japan, so they cut health care services. And I travel to the UK every year for work and everyone there that has to use it, says that the system stinks.
The British NHS actually employs doctors, which no one is contemplating in the U.S. My daughter has used both the Canadian and U.S. health care financing systems to pay private doctors. She clearly perfers the former system, although no system is without problems and costs.
but other than the increased cost, lack of efficiency, reduced benefits, and lower standard of care, other than those things and the fact Obama won’t use this coverage for his little darlings…other than those things, his healthcare plan is really really good. And he can blame Bush for all the bad things…”I was gonna…put my daughters…on my new um, healthplan…but because of uh, the mess…I’ve inherited for um uh um, the last 8 years…uh, 8 years of uh, failed leadership…I cannot in good faith…put my uh, my kids thru that…Michelle and I will sacrifice the coverage…um, uh, sacrifice to only accept what we um, uh, have now…now I can uh, um, focus um uh on cap and trade…uh um”
I wish the Obama administration would fight the issues on their merit rather than on legal technicalities. This one they are trying to throw out because they say states have no standing to sue (even if it violates the Constitution) and the Arizona law because it is the National government’s responsibility to ignore rather than the State’s responsibility to enforce.
Obama is overmatched for the job at best and is disloyal to our ideals, at worst.
Health reform is only about redistribution of wealth. Here is an idea, if you can’t afford kids then don’t have them! Whatever happened to working for what you have instead of crying about what others have achieved, that you now desire.
Bigger government is never the answer. Our government does two thing well. They collect taxes well and wage war real well. That is it.
And no, I do not hate Obama because of his skin color. I hate Obama because he lies and hates America.
The NHS is not a “disaster”. Does it have it’s challenges? Yes. But it is far from broken. Patients may have to wait 18 weeks for non-emergency procedures, but when was the last time you tried to book an appointment with a specialist in the U.S.? The wait can be just as long.
For those that want it, private insurance is available and is provided by many employers. But for the majority, the NHS provides adequate health care coverage.
The fact that someone is without health care coverage in this country is not indicative of wanting what others have without having to work for it. Many people work 2 and 3 jobs just to support themselves and their families and are not fortunate enough to work for a company that offers health benefits. We in the insurance industry take this fact for granted.
Socialized medicine would ensure that EVERYONE (not just white collar workers) get the medical treatment they need. Surely this is a right and not a privilege. If it is not, it should be.
“Socialized medicine would ensure that EVERYONE (not just white collar workers) get the medical treatment they need. Surely this is a right and not a privilege. If it is not, it should be.”
Everyone has the RIGHT to healthcare in the US already. They just do not have the right to force others to pay for it, which is the path you recommend.
If you wish healthcare to become a “right” bestowed upon all Americans, there is already a process for that. This process is known a the amendment process, by which the Constitution of the United States is altered lawfully. Hate to break it to you, but just because you want to force socialized healthcare on all Americans, whether they want it or not (which polls show American DO NOT want), does not mean the Constitution bends to your personal whims.
As for seeing a specialist, I just made an appointment with an orthopedist today. My appointment is Thursday afternoon. Not in 18 weeks.
Please explain to me why I should pay more, and have to wait for inferior service, all because you want to take from my family and bestow upon another family who doesn’t work as hard (or smart), did not attend and pay for higher education, or has decided to spend their money elsewhere.
This Madoff-Care scam, passed by the leftist Democrat Party, is a giant tax bill aimed at lining the pockets of the insurance companies and trial lawyers, while driving up costs on every responsible American who actually pays for themselves (i.e. the hardworking).
BTW, my wife also has Marfan, and is required to get testing at Stanford Med Center every 6 months. The care is superb, yet costly. However, we PAY for our health insurance.
Also, everyone currently does have access to health coverage. It is called Medicaid, which was supposed to be the answer LAST TIME. However, the leftist Democrats are not looking for answers to solve healthcare problems. They are looking merely to pay constituencies and troll for votes, all at taxpayers’ expense…literally.
READ THE BILL! It is an abomination. It is a scam. It is Madoff-Care.
This is not a constitutional issue any more than social security, medicare, or medicaid is a constitutional issue. Not everyone has the luxury of higher education or is lucky enough to have an above average IQ. Does this mean they should suffer? You need to realize there are people out there that need help from society through no fault of their own. That’s what a society does. It takes care of it’s people. Privileged folks seem to forget that. Would you be against some type of socialized medicine if it was guaranteed not to cost the taxpayers more? Are you against this in principle or just because you’re afraid it might affect your bottom line? Selfish, selfish, selfish…
Thank you, Not Sarcastic. I support your position.
first of all, health care should be available to all, if they want it. secondly, i should not have to be forced to accept it, if i don’t want it nor fined because i decided against it. what we truly need is a reform on costs of the medical industry. why should it cost more for pills than generic which do the same? why should i pay extra for an xray tech to review my xray when the doctor is doing that anyway? why do we give money to our flex spending for our healthcare and yet, when we ask for an approval or refund of my money, it’s not approved? for example, i a otc vitamin and normally it’s covered under flex spending if a brand name, but i chose the generic and it was denied. if i have receipts from the doctor of money i paid to him for a bill, why can’t the flex spending folks accept the bill w/o having us get a copy of the actual biling to our HMO? in many cases, we don’t even need drugs to help us, but doctors and pharmecutical companies are in cohoots to make money. health care should not be like shopping for furniture for my house/apt. health care should be the same for all, no matter the status of income.
There’s an easy way to beat this: take the pledge. Sign a binding contract that you will never use healthcare in the United States and post it publicly. If you do that, Congress can’t regulate you and the whole debate is over. If you don’t sign it, then you are engaging in interstate commerce and Congress can do what it pleases. That’s what the Supreme Court says (see wickard v filburn, recently praised by Justice Scalia). So, show your courage, take the pledge! If you don’t have the courage, we know where you REALLY stand. I think we will quickly find out who really feels strongly about this and who is just ranting.
Check out this monstrosity.
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/tx08_brady/pr_100728_hc_chart.html
It is in a link about one-half the way down the page. God help us all.
What?? Why would I ever say I would never use health care???
Where do I begin with what is wrong with this post?
1. The contract would null and void because it lacks “legal purpose” (the reason why you can’t hold up a contract that it’s purpose is breaking the law) because we are required by law to carry health insurance now.
2. If you live in the States, you are going to have to use a medical faculity sooner or later. Let’s say you were involved in a horrible accident and were injured very badly, the medics are not going to say “Oh he signed a paper that says he is not going to use America’s health care system, so we have to leave him to die” (plus they would not have that right on their person).
Mike N, I agree with your comments 100%. I have a suggestion – why don’t you send your bill for your Thursday orthopedist appointment, and the bills for your wife’s Marfan testing, directly to Not Sarcastic and Cassandra. Tell them that you directed your health care providers to bill them directly for this, and that they are selfish if they don’t pay up. Doesn’t matter that they don’t even know you; if they are compassionate, they will pay for your orthopedist appointment and your wife’s Marfan testing without putting up a fuss. See what they say then!
No to Socialized Healthcare, you are an idiot.
I’m an idiot? Because I suggested that if you think we should all pay for each other’s healthcare, it should start with you? Don’t you want to stand by what you are suggesting? Hmmm……
So it sounds like it’s “Its only ok as long as I personaly don’t have to pay for someone else’s stuff”.
As I hear time and time again “It’s very easy to spend someone else’s money”
I have no problem paying my share. Someday I might need a little help myself.
but it would help that those who can work, work to help cover the costs like anyone else. those folks that live on welfare forever, need to find a job, even if it is picking up trash along the highway.
You are missing the point. Obama wants as many people as possible on the public dole, while vilifying the ‘rich”. The more people on extended unemployment benefits and welfare etc, the more votes for the socialists. It is all about staying in power and not what is best for the country. Next is to make all the illegals into dems/voters.
If the intent was really to cover the uninsured, there was a much cheaper way of going about it. And how could they ever shove this healthcare down our throats without addressing tort reform?
Unless you are making more than $200k, are a pharmaceutical or medical device manufacturer, or a health insurance carrier this bill will not cost you anything. In fact, according to the CBO, the legislation will reduce the deficit by $143 billion[4] over the first decade and by $1.2 trillion in the second decade, as compared to current legislation.[79][80] The CBO has revised its estimates several times, initially projecting a savings of $132 billion, then $118 billion, and later $138 billion.[81][82] The CBO estimates the cost of the first decade at $940 billion, $923 billion of which takes place during the final six years (2014—2019) when the benefits kick in.[82][83] The CBO also projects revenue will exceed spending during these six years.[84]
And transmission fluid tastes like candy.
Just because you say something is fact, doesn’t mean it is. I would be interested in seeing how they figure it will decrease the deficit.
One thing you mention in your opening line is “Unless you are making more than $200k, are a pharmaceutical or medical device manufacturer, or a health insurance carrier this bill will not cost you anything.” Ah, the key is costing HEALTH INSURANCE CARRIERS. If their costs go up, in order to stay solvent, they have to increase their rates. When they increase their rates, then the people that are for a single payer system will use it to villify the “greedy insurance companies”.
Actually, society is different than the government. The government is merely the official apparatus of the state. My family and I give thousands of dollars annually to private charities, organizations, adoption service orgs, and nonprofit healthcare providers of the poor and needy. Based upon your ranting here, I seriously doubt you share the make the same commitment to “society”.
Of course, thanks to taxes going up, increasing healthcare costs (due to the leftist democrat party’s Madoff-Care health scam and their desire to pay off sickening trial lawyers), and other fees which have increased, these service organizations will get far less from us this year, as the government has absconded that money.
There is a reason why, even with lower incomes and a bit lower education levels, studies have shown conservatives give far more to charity than leftists. Conservative ideaology demands individuals take responsibility and work to improve their communites.
Leftists, on the other hand, seem to care only about what the government can steal from producers, by force, then distribute to non-producers, without the leftist even having to care a wit or do a thing. It’s called being generous with other people’s money. It is a sign of weak morality and a true lack of interest in personally helping the poor and needy. Rather, it is merely a process by which votes can be bought by unscrupulous politicians, spending the spoils from the hard work of others.
And that is only after the leftists have stolen from the tables of families across this nation, then TAKEN THEIR SKIM OFF THE TOP – you know, like the mafia – that a smal amount is given to those in need.
Also, when a charity or service organization is found to misappropriate money, act solely in self-interest, or straight out embezzle, that organization can be shut down, with money redirected to organizations proven to be on the level. However, with government one cannot get rid of the scumbags and waste, which explains why we have career politicians. The waste, fraud, and abuse which is shown daily by state and federal governments is a testament to that fact.
Ultimately, it is sick and weak minded persons, such as yourself, who have foisted this upon our country, families, and taxpayers. Every dime you work to steal from me is stolen via government fiat from my children. Every dollar in taxes absconded by the power-hungry whores to special interests is time stolen from my life with my wife, children, family and friends. And time is truly the only thing in life that is unrecoverable.
You are a perfect example of the sickening state of mind that creates dependency, theft, and government corruption. You are the poster child for what is wrong with our country.
You are either a liar, or a fool who has not bothered to read the bill, instead focusing on spouting hack talking points.
1. Every w-2 will reflect the cost of employer-paid health insurance benefits. This has been done in order to begin taxing benefits.
2. Every single health plan, due speficially to requirements in this Madoff-Care scam of a bill, will rise in cost, due specifically to government regulation. That is a de facto tax. To say otherwise is to lie through your teeth.
3. Each and every American, due to this Madoff-Care scam, will be forced to purchase LTC insurance, either through an employer sponsored plan, or through a new government scam (i.e. another way, much like social security and medicare, for leftist democrats to raid the system of money to buy off their favored constituencies, thereby rendering the program financially insolvent – then come more tax increases!). Therefore the government will forcibly take more money from you and your family.
4. This Madoff-Care scam bill also have provisions where many screenings, whose costs are now borne by those who become afflicted by the chosen diseases, will be “free of charge”. This means that every single healthcare plan will have to charge every single insured to cover diabetes screenings, cancer screening and testing, innoculations, all pregnancy testing, etc. This is, once again, a de facto tax on all insured across this nation.
Anyone who supports this bill, and says it is a step in the right direction is either:
1. A liar.
2. A political hack, trying to buy more votes.
3. A lazy fool who has not read the bill.
4. A fool who cannot understand the words in front of them.
My question to you is, into which category do you fall?
You don’t understand. You are not smart enough to decide where you donate your after tax dollars. The Big Government can do much better by taxing your earnings and deciding who should get your dollars. Will probably go to some crybaby who has no sense of personal responsibility, or some mother of ten who has no idea how to feed, educate, assimilate, or care for them, or to help build a islamic mosque at ground zero.
And why would you worry with good honest people like Charlie Rangel and Maxine Waters looking after our country.
MY ranting?? I don’t think I went on for 8 paragraphs like you just did.
You don’t know me and have no idea about what charitable contributions I make. I don’t need to go around telling everyone about the “thousands of dollars” I spend. Pat yourself on the back there, Mike.
I am neither sick or weak-minded. Nor am I an example of what is wrong with this country. It’s greedy, right-wing, holier-than-thou, corporate theives that are what is wrong with this country. Notice how I did not put you in this category? Why? Because I don’t know you! You don’t have to be rude and make this personal…
Don’t you fools read ANYTHING other than Fox news trailers?
1. We ALREADY pay for the uninsured (as well as the uninsured illegal aliens) with our tax dollars as well as our private carrier insurance premiums…so what’s your problem here?
2. The healthcare system was/is already crashing…or didn’t you notice your co pays increasing as well as your proportion of premium as well as the premiums paid by your employer this past 10 years or so…so what’s your problem?
3. You are presubmably insurance professionals of some sort…don’t you read about the scams and frauds perpetrated by some medical providers…so what’s your problem
4. Don’t you read anything? Didn’t you see the articles about the healthcare providers in CA and elsewhere that have or wanted to increase rates up to 19%…and the companion articles showing that their reserves are three to four times higher than needed for claims costs projected? They are “billing” before they are hurt.
5. Don’t you read various money publications which show the profits and bonuses made by the these companies and their corporate heads?
6. Don’t you read about the denials of coverage after the fact for folks who come down with costly diseases or illnesses?
You are too mired in your own blowhard rhetoric to open your eyes. You complain about Obamacare on one hand and then condemn this bill as a sop to big business. Well, who forced that? You are too mired in your own smug sanctimony to see that part of this bill was supposed to (and hopefully does) rectify the glaring inequities of the private system which is not designed to cover all (they allegedly do underwrite, after all)and so who will cover those people?
You are very smug with company paid insurance and non underwritten acceptance for coverage. Betcha that before the feds made a law the wife with Marfans would have been declined if Mr. conservative had changed jobs and carriers. then you would have been on the bunker with me….
And how DARE you question my contribution to charitable organizations. Well, Mr. Smuggo, not only do I give thousands, but I also give of my time and my home, so just keep patting yourself on the back and think you are unique in all the world.
I can’t believe that most of you actually BELIEVE what you say…
Again, I ask…what CONCRETE suggestions would you make to help the deserving uninsured, control healthcare costs (other than your tort reform mantra, which in many cases is spot on, I agree), curb the abuses of the private carriers (underwriting after the claim, runaway cost increases), curb the fraud???
Any REAL ideas or just hateful slogans?
When you are supporting the government stealing my life away through taxation, then it is indeed personal. When you support government action that takes money from my parents insurance through Medicare (for which they ALREADY PAID – BY FORCE – through gross government fiat), then it is personal. When you support requiring me to work longer hours (thereby stealing my ability to raise and spend time with my children) to make the same amount of money (due to having to shoulder a greater tax burden), then you better believe it is personal. To think otherwise is foolish, shortsighted and an affront to common sense.
You had written about how greedy conservatives are, when it is primarily conservatives who VOLUNTARILY give to the needy in far greater numbers than statists like yourself. So, the response was not only warranted, it was almost required to combat your outright misrepresentations.
One can be a strong, self-sufficient individual, who produces and adds to society. One can, in turn, be a lazy dreg who lives off the goods stolen from others. Those who are truly invalids and suffer extreme maladies are few and far between. And it is the moral responsibility to those in LOCAL communities to give time and treasure to ensure those weakest among us receive help from PRIVATE, VOLUNTARY donations, which exist in this country in far greater numbers per capita than any other nation on earth.
Then there are those who espouse extra-Constitutional theft by an overarching federal government, in order to steal something for themselves, and make themselves feel better about absconding and redistributing OTHERS’ hard earned incomes to their own chosen constituencies. This approach steals the only truly precious gift each of us has…our time.
So, when you personally support increasing my insurance costs (which this Madoff-Care scam of a bill does), increasing my taxes, (i.e. stealing more of my life away from my family, children, and friends), forcing me into insurance plans I do not want (which this Madoff-Care scam of a bill does), and making it more difficult for my family to receive proper care (which this Madoff-Care scam of a bill does – if you doubt me, speak with your doctor – as I have to numerous doctors), then indeed you have made it personal.
That is the problem with statists like you. You don’t care about the repercussions of your actions, or who it effects. This, by the way, is the same approach and attitude George III and Parliament took, which brought on the American Revolution. When your life is being taken from you by government fiat, without consideration of your rights and freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution, you damn well better believe it is absolutely personal. The fact you do not recognize this is a sad reflection on your mindset.
You need to take a pill and relax. I imagine you are foaming at the mouth about now. Quit all your name-calling and labeling of people. It only shows your true ignorance. People are much more complex that the left/right, black/white picture you wish to paint. Insulting me without knowing a thing about me is the epitomy of a “sad reflection on your mindset”. I feel sorry for you that you have so much anger, resentment, and hate inside you. I really hope you don’t spend much time with your children so your vitriol doesn’t ruin their chances of being intellegient, open-minded, adults some day. Now it’s time for you to shut up.
I hate to break it to you, but any person who believes the government can do a better job deserves any kind of scorn heaped their way, including you.
Government track record:
– Medicare – BROKE
– Meidcaid – BROKE
– Social Security – BROKE
Seems to me, if one takes reality into account, the biggest “hateful slogan” is trusting the federal government to manage any part of our lives, which you support by supporting this Madoff-Care scam of a bill.
To address your points:
1. we will now be paying EVEN MORE for the uninsured, thanks to this scam. Our costs have all risen dramatically, thanks to this Madoff-Care bill you support.
2. 95 out of every 100 doctors, on average has been sued. In talking with doctors and nurses from Stanford Med Ctr, UC David Med Ctr, and Oakland Children’s Hospital, the consistent number cited, in respect to procedures ordered simply for defensive medicical purposes, is 40% of ALL PROCEDURES. So, when you dismiss lawsuits as one of the main purpetrators of costs, you are missing the main point, and make your arguments look foolish.
If the leftists really wanted to bring down costs two things would occur:
A. Tort reform – Which Howard Dean admits the leftists refused to confront, just so they could continue to receive ill-gotten, immoral campign funds.
B. Implementing low-cost plans where the insured pays for doctors visits and minor testing out-of-pocket, with major testing, ambulance, and hospital care being an 80/20 split between insured and carrier.
C. Stop forcing private insurance plans to subsidize Medicare, as is currently the case. The government low-balls the cost schedule for Medicare, which means doctors, hospitals, and ambulance companies increase costs for private patients with insurance.
D. Get rid of the majority of state mandates, which are huge drivers of cost – see below.
3. Yes, you are correct, I understand insurance. the majority of fraud occurs in government programs – like Medicare and Madicaid. Of course, the government doesn’t go after those thieves, as they represent a voting block. When fraud occurs on the part of carriers (who I consider no angels themselves, but vastly better than the thieves in government, living off our tax dollars), there is a system by which they are prosecuted and pay for their crimes. That is how it should be. If you are a corporation found guilty of fraud, you can be sued out of existence. And I can also always change carriers. That doesn’t happen to government programs – which is what you espouse with this scam of a bill. Unfortunately, we cannot sue the feds out of existence. So, quite honestly, by supporting this bill, I would posit you are for GREATER fraud and abuse.
4. Did that increase gain approval ultimately? Was that increase implemented (BTW it was 40% – for specific plans, not across the board on all the plans offered by the carrier, so please do your homework before accusing me of not doing mine)? It was not. Why? Because this private company realized bad press would kill them. The government program you support will not be required to react in that same manner, making the problems even worse, almost intractably.
5. Yes, I do read these publications. Unfortunately, it seems you lack financial training enough to understand the difference between profit dollars and profit margins. The profit margins for carriers are less than or equal to those in the grocery business. They sit at less than 5%. that places this industry in the bottom 5% of all industries in respect to profit margin. Once again, do your homework.
6. The only legal way a carrier can deny coverage to an insured, AFTER THE FACT, is if the insured can be proven to have hidden a previously existing condition. Now, some may have been non-renewed due to loss concerns. But that is due to their inability to raise cost ssufficiently to pay for these people. If you are aware of how carriers must get approval for rates, you would understand this issue. It seems you are not and do not.
For the record, requiring carriers to offer insurance to those with pre-existing conditions is probably the only portion of this terrible scam I agree with. My caveat is those with these conditions should have to pay their fair share for the increased cost of care. Please see my suggestion in answer 2.B, which covers how this could be done.
I am not mired in my own rhetoric, I am just tired of lazy people who, rather than find answers to complex problems that work, instead turn to suck the teat of government – paid for by money taken from others, and their families. A government that cannot even tell you where the money they steal from us truly goes. Billions of dollares of waste occur, without even the appearance of financial propreity on the part of those wasting the money.
BTW, for the record, we own a business where the insurance in covered, 100%, by us, the employer. So, don’t be so “smug” when my family – through my wife’s company – is one of those not only covering myself and my family, but covering every employee of the company’s monthly plan costs IN FULL.
As for questioning your contributions to charity, it seems you may be the exception to the rule. Most people who lather for more government are usually those giving the absolute least to help those in need, which has been statistically proven. And I am sick and tired of being told I am not giving enough, or that I am immoral for not supporting this Madoff-Care scam, by people who have been proven to be stingy and unwilling to assist their communities through time and treasure. Once again, if what you claim is true, you are the rare exception to the rule.
Based upon your obvious pining for government to increase its control over your life, I can see why you could not believe I actually believe what I say. Freedom and responsibility seem to be a foreign language to leftists.
So, as for my “CONCRETE” suggestions, please see above, where I laid them out pretty plainly.
I will leave you with one last thought, before I have to go back to work to support massive government fraud and abuse (when is “Tax Freedon Day thisyear? Oh yeah, some time in MAY!): one of the biggest drivers of healthcare costs are government mandates. For example, in California, EVERY HEALTHCARE PLAN must include coverage for chiropractic (the utilization of which, by the way, is one of the greatest drivers of fraud and abuse in the healthcare system). We all pay for that. whether or not we want it. And there are dozens of similar cost drivers, implemented via leftist government fiat.
I suggest you do some homework on this topic. It seems you operate on cheap bromides and whatever anecdotes you can get your hands upon through news agencies. Instead I recommend you actually learn about the topic, find multiple sources for information, study historical data and gain an understanding as to how an industry that ran well 20-30 years ago has been rendered unmanageable and virtually destroyed today.
And PLEASE SPEND TIME READING THIS BILL! Anyone who supports this bill either hasn’t read it, or doesn’t understand it or the industry. If you spend time understanding this scam, which no politician who voted for it did, you will not support it. It will become obvious to you this is designed to increase costs, force you to buy coverage you don’t want and don’t need, and line the pockets of trial lawyers, insurance companies, and drug manufacturers, all at taxpayer expense.
Once again READ THE BILL!
“Calm down about me doing everything I can to steal from you and your family” is the essence of your response? I would posit my 6 year old is already more developed, in respect to “being intellegient” and “open-minded” than you, as he could have summoned his intellect to profer a better response than “shut up.” Then again, that seems perfectly in step with the depth of your input to this board. You might want to stop stamping your feet for a few minutes and change your screen name to Veruca Salt.
thank you!
A.Tort Reform – 100% agreement
b. Agree although the 20% could still be financially devasting depnding on illness/disease. Provisions would need to be made
c. Agree, although I would think a more careful selection of those that get in and fraud involved (passing around IDs, SS cards) is totally warranted as well
d. Couldn’t agree more especially with chiropractic. Do a lot of CA WC…Chiro a blight and creeping back in as reforms are diluted
3. Agree. Fraud on both sides. Do not agree that lawsuits will drive frauding corps out of business…or at least in enough time for good rememdy and cessation of harm to consumers
4. Yes, thankfully someone was monitoring. Had no one been watching, they would have gotten away with it.
5. You make a point. Poor choice of words, but note that corporations in this country sek ALWAYS to show the lowest profit they can so that they can pay the least taxes they can. If they can afford to pay some of the salaries and bonuses they seem to be able, then it would appear they might be able to show higer profit margins…
6. Oh, sorry. Inaccurate wording. By stalling authorizations and denying various procedures….The cancelling comes after they realize that one of their insureds has developed a costly disease/illness. All perfectly legal, of course.
I will not respond to all the rest of the personal barbs. Suffice it to say I do read and understand as much as you do. I do, in fact, contribute as I say…no lie. And yes, I did read almost all of the bill.
but I ask you to note that what you suggest and what I agree with is just not that far from the same thing.
And I do very much THANK YOU for the CONCRETE suggestions and (more) civil tone…no sarcasm intended
It appears we all want the same things. And we agree on many points. The argument comes with how we get there, not whether we need to get there or not. I never said the current bill was the best way. But it is what we have right now and we need to evaluate and improve on it. It is hard to come together with viable solutions when insults are being hurled at you because of miscommunication or lack of understanding. The divisiveness needs to stop in order for us to make this country better.
Mike N…that is my whole point. We DO all want the best and we should not lose sight of that…at least I think the little people do.
So maybe we should all think a bit harder about what we say in these blogs and the labels we give to others…we are all in the same boat.
Thanks. Have a restful evening, Mike N. Looking forward to seeing what tomorrow will bring!
Cassandra: That last post was from me, not Mike N. I am intereseted to see if he responds or not…
well, i agree we need health care available for all and it to be proper care not just here take 2 pills and check back next week. but i have a fear that we need to get our illegals out of the country because those of us that do pay taxes and earn a proper living above the table, deserve our rights. we need to get stronger in our attack on companies that hire illegals but don’t pay their taxes or other benefits that most americans have, including those with visas from other countries. a properly employed person, or those that have retired or disabled, deserve proper health care. it’s the matter of how to address it without any more costs to the american people as a whole. we already have forked out too much money on companies that we should have left alone. we could have used that money elsewhere. if you have followed anything about AIG, we are losing our skins because of more lawsuits being draining any capital it has. problem, most of the money left is the government money and that will go as well. this company should have been allowed to go bankrupt w/o government support. that money should have been placed in better use. for example medicaid or medicare!
While I agree with your end-game, getting as many people to have access to health insurance as possible, what I do not agree with is increasing the already too heavy load upon the shoulders of those of us working hard for a living and business owners.
Life is short. It is a zero sum game. I cannot bargain for or earn more time. The more the government takes by way of taxation, higher costs through mandates, and increased regulation, the harder one has to work to support their family and enjoy life. In essence, when more is taken in way of money, this is tantamount to stealing time away from my life, as more time must then be devoted to work, just to stay even, much less get ahead.
Therefore, ANY person that is pushing for either higher taxes, greater regulation (most often, since it seems the government is most inept at accomplishing nearly anything, and usually kills opportunity for the most part – though obviously there is great need for government…just far more at the local level, rather than federal. There is a reason the Constitution lined out specific roles for the government; to limit abuse), or increased intervention, is truly supporting theft of more of my life. Note, this is time I cannot get back, and which is not longer spent with my wife, children, friends, family, or the “pursuit of happiness”. This is why I take this all so personally.
Consider one pays income tax (39% fed, 10% state), sales tax (just about 9%), hundreds of added fees (take a look at your next phone bill or cell bill, just as one example), property taxes (thousands – even with prop 13 in effect), gas taxes ($.30/gallon), usage fees, and the multitude of taxes which are paid by vendors, makers of products, distributors, etc. – all of which are hidden from consumers, yet are still factored into the cost of goods one buys. Once one begins to calculate the actual tax burden, it is absolutely sickening.
At the same time, consider the programs the government has put together. Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are all nearing bankruptcy, and on a collision course for failure. Note, they misappropriated the money. It has been stolen and used for other purposes. Hell, the only true disbursements the government has explicit Constitutional directives to outlay are Defense and Border Security (leaving treasury out of the equation). The defense department is awash in waste (though they are the only government entity – aside from the IRS – that actually achieves success. And I don’t count the IRS as a success – surprise!), and the border is more porous than a seive.
So, when we consider nearly everything the federal government has touched, we see nothing more than failure, lies, broken promises, waste, fraud and abuse. And that comes from BOTH sides of the aisle (though one side, due to its mentaility and philosophy, has far more to answer for in my book).
And let’s not even talk about education.
So, I always come back to this point – how many times will we keep walking into the same wall, banging our heads into yet another failure of the federal government until we finally wake up and say “enough!”?
We can all agree the health insurance system in this country needs a lot of work. However, the health delivery system is still one of the best in the world, as about 90% of us have access to primaries, specialists, the best med centers, etc. It isn’t cheap, that’s for sure. At the same time, I think that has more to do with the way insurance is delivered and managed (BTW, health insurance is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the US), as well as programs like Medicare, which overpromised and doesn’t pay its way. I can call my doctor on his cell phone. I can call one of the best heart specialists in the US, on his cell phone. I can call my orthopedist on his cell phone. And I can get an appointment with any of them within 2 weeks (and it’s only that long for the heart dr.).
But this bill is an absolute scam. What was promised: lower costs, more covered, you can keep your plan if you like it, was not delivered at all. The grandfathering rules for current plans make it impossible for anyone to keep them after the next couple years. Our costs, due to mandates and executive orders, will skyrocket faster, and this plan will not cover any more people than are now covered. In fact, based upon the increases in cost, I would posit far more will have to give up coverage and go to medicaid – you know, that bankrupt system they’ve already been raiding for decades.
And the people that put it together admit (ADMIT!) they refused to act to control the biggest systemic drain – tort reform – because they valued campign cash more than the American populace.
The divisiveness you speak of is what happens when your pantry is raided by politicians to dole out goodies to others. When my children are getting less into their college funds to pay for congresspeople to hand out goodies to get reelected, you better believe it is divisive. When chunks of my life are stolen, you better believe it is divisive.
To give an example: when someone robs a bank, is that “divisive”? Why? Because the hard earned money one has worked for is now gone. That’s exactly what is happening.
The difference between what you and I view as acceptable, based upon what I’ve read here, is that I feel one volunteering their time and treasue to the community is praiseworthy, virtuous, and honorable. And there is ALWAYS the need to give to your LOCAL community. You, on the other hand, seem to view it as praiseworthy, virtuous, and honorable for the government to take at will, by force of law, and dole it out to others as a pathway to more votes, power and personal aggrandizement for themselves. Though you may feel differently about it, that is the net effect.
One thing I am sure of, without any doubts whatsoever, the government will fail at this, as it has with every single program it has in the past. And our lives are on the line with this one. And you cannot name one politician, past or present, that I trust to do this for the betterment of the country, or who could handle the job.
So, to end an extremely long response (yet again), I view anyone siding with the failures in government, out to steal my life away through taxation, regulation, and control, as a direct threat to my life, my family’s well being, and that of the country at large. The divisiveness begins when someone is coming at me to take from me by force. I am merely reacting to this fact. So, if we want to end the divisiveness, stop trying to steal my life, my work, my time with my kids, my time with my wife, and stop trying to place controls on my life and freedom.
That is what ends divisiveness. End it by never beginning the process, and viola!, the divisiveness evaporates.
At the same time, I have a question for you. Why is it you do not see the threat to your freedoms and life the federal gvoernment represents and foists upon you daily? That is what puzzles me.
see, I spent a good chunk of my workday responding and philosophising on this board. If my taxes were lower, I could spend more time in debate like this, which I enjoy. Or, I could be home right now playing guitar, or playing with my kids. Instead, I have to work to make money, less than half of which will make its way into my bank account. How can that be justified?
I agree, stop the divisiveness. Stop an out of control government that is stealing our lives away.
Mike N and wudchuck
I usually find myself disagreeing with you but these last posts are somethng to work with. Mike, I agree that the taqxstion is burdensome but because I do not think we are getting value for our money. I think our Congress (both parites) have become accustomed to their perks and arrogant with their power.
Our choices are poor for this election…we have to swerve between one pendulum apogee to another. Not good.