Lawyers like this controversey a lot since they get paid regardless of the result. The government lawyer finally admitted the non compliance with the mandate would result in a tax, not a fine. The law does not call for a tax on citizens who choose not to buy coverage. After the law was passed, he is taking it on himself to re-write it. If it is a tax, the government will be justified in hiring the additional 17,000 IRS agents to enforce and tax the people who reject coverage. I wonder what will happen to all the “Waivers” that have been granted. Will these people pay a tax even if they have received a waiver?
“Our point is that people are seeking this good already in untold numbers … and that the failure to pay for that good when they seek it is what causes the cost shifting.”
If failure to pay for services rendered is the problem, pass a law to force people to pay “when they seek it”, don’t force everyone to pay whether they use the services or not. If congress would address specific problems, they might come up with something a lot more effective and a lot less objectionable.
President Obama was presented with a different plan prior to this law every reaching the floor of the House. It revolved around developing a healthcare delivery platform using the VA Medical Centers as a jumpoff point. The plan suggested that the services be open to all, insured or not but accepting insurance carrier payment as payment in full (if insured) and having small co-pays if not insured.
The synopsis of the program was a 5 page document but addressed cost containment in that system, increasing the medical specialties through the use of medical malpractice incentives and funding through changes to the already existing medicare tax.
It did require that all government employees use only that system (including members of congress) as well as all people and families on public assistance.
Although not fully formed out in the synopsis, it had a number of great ideas, none of which trampled on the Constitution and the right to due process. The Obama administration never considered the proposal.
But Ned, everyone uses healthcare services. Not on a regular basis, of course, but everyone eventaully uses it. That’s the fallacy of the argument that the people are being forced to engage in commerce by paying for health insurance. That’s wrong. People engage in commerce by showing up at emergency rooms without health insurance. They’re engaging in a system that shifts the cost of uninsured care onto others who have insurance.
What happens if you have a heart attack on your way to work? Under your plan of “force people to pay when they seek it,” what happens when the hospital doesn’t treat you because you are unconscious and unable to explain that you have health insurance?
When I use it, I will pay for it. Or if I choose to buy health insurance, the insurer will pay for it. Obamacare forces people to be health insurance consumers whether they need healthcare services or not. If I want to go without insurance and save the premiums for when I need a doctor, that should be my choice in this free country.
Those that show up at emergency rooms with or without insurance should be held responsible for the cost of care they receive. There are laws that require emergency rooms to treat anyone who comes in, insured or not and I don’t advocate a change in that. I advocate people paying for their own care.
People use the emergency room and then can’t pay because they have no insurance. You say “hold them responsible.” How? Put them in jail if they don’t pay? We did away with debtors prisons over a century ago. Doesn’t it bother you that those cost get passed on to people who have health insurance? Wouldn’t it be better if everyone had health insurance?
No, I wouldn’t put them in jail. That doesn’t get any money out of them. We could up the consequences for not paying – allow medical accounts to be included in credit scores. Perhaps make it easier to attach wages.
So do you think those that can’t pay their medical bills will be able to afford health insurance? And if they don’t, will they be able to pay the fine? (I guess those without a job could – 2.5% of nothing is nothing – but that doesn’t add any money to the system, does it?) And what do you do with those that don’t pay the fine, put them in jail?!
June 9, 2011 at 3:34 pm
think, please... says:
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Ned, if someone is uninsured and showing up for treatment in the ER, dinging their credit rating is hardly going to have any impact on them – these are POOR PEOPLE, who already have a crappy credit rating if they have any at all. Short of a fine (which they’ve already shown that they can’t pay) or debtor’s prison, which you say you’re not in favor of, what’re you gonna do – shame them? They’re ALREADY ashamed of being marginalized. Think your agruments through all the way, and maybe talk to a poor person now and then to get some perspective, eh?
Hey – I am a “poor” person now that the Obama administration has screwed everything up. How did that guy get elected anyway. And to think there are people actually considering any of these social (payback) policies coming out of that administration and think any these plans are designed with the intent on making our America a better society. What a joke, wake up people!
June 9, 2011 at 5:40 pm
Agent says:
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These “poor” people all seem to be able to afford their flat screen TV’s, iphones,ipods, cars etc. Many of them do pretty well on their food stamps, welfare, disability etc. You think they would be ashamed? They aren’t ashamed to take all the other entitlements being given to them. We could have formed a Pool for these people and it might have only cost $50 Bil. Now, we have to force everyone into a one size fits all program for a trillion. That is my perspective on it. We are broke as a nation and our leaders have spent us to the brink of bankruptcy. Sorry, but we can’t afford to provide unlimited entitlements anymore.
June 10, 2011 at 10:20 am
The Other Point of View says:
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Ned, when you say “If I want to go without insurance and save the premiums for when I need a doctor, that should be my choice in this free country.,” you really don’t believe that nonsense do you?
Do you know ANYONE who doesn’t buy health insurance and saves money for when they need to go to the doctor? I mean, sure, theoretically, that would be nice if people did that. But they don’t. They never have and they never will. So that leaves you with the same problem. People either have insurance or they don’t and those that don’t can’t afford to pay when the bill comes due from the doctor.
So you suggest knocking their credit scores. Wow. That’s a real incentive there. Meanwhile, people who have insurance will continue to pay the cost of those that don’t have it.
Face it, everyone needs medical care. Therefore, everyone needs medical insurance. Those that don’t pay for medical insurance force their costs on those of us that do pay for health insurance, and frankly, I’m tired of subsidizing those yof you that refuse to get health insurance and then roll into the the ER whenever you have a hangnail.
Yes, I do believe it should be a choice whether to buy health insurance or not. I do know a couple people who pay their medical providers directly – Rush Limbaugh (he’s rich) for one and my wife’s aunt (she’s a little strange). And statistics say there are lots of people who can afford it who choose not to buy insurance.
That aside, your support of this law seems to be that you don’t want to pay for other people’s medical bills. Well, guess what. If everyone is insured, those people (and lots more newly insured folks) will still go to the ER for their hangnails and the cost will be spread to everyone via their insurance, including you.
You also didn’t answer what do you do with those that refuse to buy insurance and refuse to pay the fine?
June 9, 2011 at 3:05 pm
John says:
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The current system costs us $1000 per year per the report. Obamacare is going to cost trillions of dollars in new taxes over 10 years and increase beyond. Our system could be improved, but overhaul and govt cotrol is not the plan. What has the govt ever done that was successful?
As far as the What ifs. That does not happen in our current system. It will occur under O-care. Our lives and treatment will be regulated by the govt.
I’ve always heard where there is smoke there is fire. Investigate! This president was not vetted and most don’t know his ultimate goal. The USA is already changed by him for my children and its getting much worse. Google project 60 and the purchase of Idaho by China. So much for a soveregn country. Hope you don’t live there.
The scariest idea is that you and others support this and him. This is not about health care, its about bankruptcy. It fits his desire to bail out Greece and return Isreal back to pre 1967 war boundaries. Its about telling the Arabs that the USA is not a Christian Nation.
I am inclined to agree with you John. The bill that was passed takes us far down the road to Socialism and is sure to bankrupt the country. These liberal bloggers don’t seem to understand that the country is broke and cannot afford one more big entitlement. In fact, we need to reform all the others such as Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security since they have trillions in unfunded liabilities. This Progressive Socialist President has done more to harm this country in 2+ years than all the ones who went before.
How about adding trillions to the deficit with this bill? This is the greatest wealth distribution scheme ever devised for the American People. It is a huge job killer in an economy desperate for jobs and another huge entitlement to be added to the burdensome entitlements already in place. Folks, we are broke and cannot afford this monstrocity.
The attorney representing the government admitted yesterday that the rejection of the mandate would be a tax, not a fine like the bill calls for. This will justify the government to hire the additional 17,000 IRS agents to enforce the mandate. Big Brother will be watching everyone. Does this scenario bother anyone but me?
Let’s just make the system so that only those who need health coverage from this new system buy it. Insurance People: Does this sound like a good idea? How long do you think it will last? Those of you who choose NOT to buy coverage, shall we feel sorry for you when you get sick and have nothing? Or, will you just go to the ER, like so many uninsured people currently do now? Now THATS a great system. Guess who is paying for it? It’s a great system we have now, isn’t it? Wait…don’t we all pay into medicare?? Why are those Attys General from the various states not suing over that?? Just wondering.
This problem is much bigger than who has insurance or not. Currently carriers are assessed a % of their premiums to pay for insurance carriers who can’t sustain themselves – this gets passed back to comsumers. The incentive to keep folks healthy, therefore, out of the doctors office is simply no there. Why not tax McDonalds, Baskin Robbins, Wendy’s etc., our fast food society contributes heavily to the healthcare issue. What about illegal’s in our country, seeking healthcare? People having kids that can’t pay for the hospital bill to have the kid to begin with?
Debra, Your post makes very little sense to me. I think you must be very confused about how business operates. It makes little sense to further tax legitimate businesses because the public likes to eat there. All of the fast food restaurants offer a healthy menu now. If that was all they offered, they would not have any customers and would go out of business. Would that create jobs in our jobs scarce economy? I will agree that we shouldn’t be providing healthcare to illegals. They are putting a great deal of stress on healthcare providers all across the country and should be sent home.
“Lawyers fro Obama”?
Poor taste, IJ.
Lawyers for Obama? Lawyers for the States? Where are the lawyers for the people? Holy smokes!
Lawyers like this controversey a lot since they get paid regardless of the result. The government lawyer finally admitted the non compliance with the mandate would result in a tax, not a fine. The law does not call for a tax on citizens who choose not to buy coverage. After the law was passed, he is taking it on himself to re-write it. If it is a tax, the government will be justified in hiring the additional 17,000 IRS agents to enforce and tax the people who reject coverage. I wonder what will happen to all the “Waivers” that have been granted. Will these people pay a tax even if they have received a waiver?
“Our point is that people are seeking this good already in untold numbers … and that the failure to pay for that good when they seek it is what causes the cost shifting.”
If failure to pay for services rendered is the problem, pass a law to force people to pay “when they seek it”, don’t force everyone to pay whether they use the services or not. If congress would address specific problems, they might come up with something a lot more effective and a lot less objectionable.
President Obama was presented with a different plan prior to this law every reaching the floor of the House. It revolved around developing a healthcare delivery platform using the VA Medical Centers as a jumpoff point. The plan suggested that the services be open to all, insured or not but accepting insurance carrier payment as payment in full (if insured) and having small co-pays if not insured.
The synopsis of the program was a 5 page document but addressed cost containment in that system, increasing the medical specialties through the use of medical malpractice incentives and funding through changes to the already existing medicare tax.
It did require that all government employees use only that system (including members of congress) as well as all people and families on public assistance.
Although not fully formed out in the synopsis, it had a number of great ideas, none of which trampled on the Constitution and the right to due process. The Obama administration never considered the proposal.
But Ned, everyone uses healthcare services. Not on a regular basis, of course, but everyone eventaully uses it. That’s the fallacy of the argument that the people are being forced to engage in commerce by paying for health insurance. That’s wrong. People engage in commerce by showing up at emergency rooms without health insurance. They’re engaging in a system that shifts the cost of uninsured care onto others who have insurance.
What happens if you have a heart attack on your way to work? Under your plan of “force people to pay when they seek it,” what happens when the hospital doesn’t treat you because you are unconscious and unable to explain that you have health insurance?
When I use it, I will pay for it. Or if I choose to buy health insurance, the insurer will pay for it. Obamacare forces people to be health insurance consumers whether they need healthcare services or not. If I want to go without insurance and save the premiums for when I need a doctor, that should be my choice in this free country.
Those that show up at emergency rooms with or without insurance should be held responsible for the cost of care they receive. There are laws that require emergency rooms to treat anyone who comes in, insured or not and I don’t advocate a change in that. I advocate people paying for their own care.
We are also forced to pay into medicare. Don’t you have a problem with that?
People use the emergency room and then can’t pay because they have no insurance. You say “hold them responsible.” How? Put them in jail if they don’t pay? We did away with debtors prisons over a century ago. Doesn’t it bother you that those cost get passed on to people who have health insurance? Wouldn’t it be better if everyone had health insurance?
No, I wouldn’t put them in jail. That doesn’t get any money out of them. We could up the consequences for not paying – allow medical accounts to be included in credit scores. Perhaps make it easier to attach wages.
So do you think those that can’t pay their medical bills will be able to afford health insurance? And if they don’t, will they be able to pay the fine? (I guess those without a job could – 2.5% of nothing is nothing – but that doesn’t add any money to the system, does it?) And what do you do with those that don’t pay the fine, put them in jail?!
Ned, if someone is uninsured and showing up for treatment in the ER, dinging their credit rating is hardly going to have any impact on them – these are POOR PEOPLE, who already have a crappy credit rating if they have any at all. Short of a fine (which they’ve already shown that they can’t pay) or debtor’s prison, which you say you’re not in favor of, what’re you gonna do – shame them? They’re ALREADY ashamed of being marginalized. Think your agruments through all the way, and maybe talk to a poor person now and then to get some perspective, eh?
Hey – I am a “poor” person now that the Obama administration has screwed everything up. How did that guy get elected anyway. And to think there are people actually considering any of these social (payback) policies coming out of that administration and think any these plans are designed with the intent on making our America a better society. What a joke, wake up people!
These “poor” people all seem to be able to afford their flat screen TV’s, iphones,ipods, cars etc. Many of them do pretty well on their food stamps, welfare, disability etc. You think they would be ashamed? They aren’t ashamed to take all the other entitlements being given to them. We could have formed a Pool for these people and it might have only cost $50 Bil. Now, we have to force everyone into a one size fits all program for a trillion. That is my perspective on it. We are broke as a nation and our leaders have spent us to the brink of bankruptcy. Sorry, but we can’t afford to provide unlimited entitlements anymore.
Ned, when you say “If I want to go without insurance and save the premiums for when I need a doctor, that should be my choice in this free country.,” you really don’t believe that nonsense do you?
Do you know ANYONE who doesn’t buy health insurance and saves money for when they need to go to the doctor? I mean, sure, theoretically, that would be nice if people did that. But they don’t. They never have and they never will. So that leaves you with the same problem. People either have insurance or they don’t and those that don’t can’t afford to pay when the bill comes due from the doctor.
So you suggest knocking their credit scores. Wow. That’s a real incentive there. Meanwhile, people who have insurance will continue to pay the cost of those that don’t have it.
Face it, everyone needs medical care. Therefore, everyone needs medical insurance. Those that don’t pay for medical insurance force their costs on those of us that do pay for health insurance, and frankly, I’m tired of subsidizing those yof you that refuse to get health insurance and then roll into the the ER whenever you have a hangnail.
Yes, I do believe it should be a choice whether to buy health insurance or not. I do know a couple people who pay their medical providers directly – Rush Limbaugh (he’s rich) for one and my wife’s aunt (she’s a little strange). And statistics say there are lots of people who can afford it who choose not to buy insurance.
That aside, your support of this law seems to be that you don’t want to pay for other people’s medical bills. Well, guess what. If everyone is insured, those people (and lots more newly insured folks) will still go to the ER for their hangnails and the cost will be spread to everyone via their insurance, including you.
You also didn’t answer what do you do with those that refuse to buy insurance and refuse to pay the fine?
The current system costs us $1000 per year per the report. Obamacare is going to cost trillions of dollars in new taxes over 10 years and increase beyond. Our system could be improved, but overhaul and govt cotrol is not the plan. What has the govt ever done that was successful?
As far as the What ifs. That does not happen in our current system. It will occur under O-care. Our lives and treatment will be regulated by the govt.
I’ve always heard where there is smoke there is fire. Investigate! This president was not vetted and most don’t know his ultimate goal. The USA is already changed by him for my children and its getting much worse. Google project 60 and the purchase of Idaho by China. So much for a soveregn country. Hope you don’t live there.
The scariest idea is that you and others support this and him. This is not about health care, its about bankruptcy. It fits his desire to bail out Greece and return Isreal back to pre 1967 war boundaries. Its about telling the Arabs that the USA is not a Christian Nation.
What are you, chicken little? I think you have been reading too much of The American Spectator.
I am inclined to agree with you John. The bill that was passed takes us far down the road to Socialism and is sure to bankrupt the country. These liberal bloggers don’t seem to understand that the country is broke and cannot afford one more big entitlement. In fact, we need to reform all the others such as Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security since they have trillions in unfunded liabilities. This Progressive Socialist President has done more to harm this country in 2+ years than all the ones who went before.
I love “C”…
“That it will reduce the deficit”
Glad some in this administration still have a sense of humor.
How about adding trillions to the deficit with this bill? This is the greatest wealth distribution scheme ever devised for the American People. It is a huge job killer in an economy desperate for jobs and another huge entitlement to be added to the burdensome entitlements already in place. Folks, we are broke and cannot afford this monstrocity.
Law ????
BHO doesn’t need any stinking laws……………….
The attorney representing the government admitted yesterday that the rejection of the mandate would be a tax, not a fine like the bill calls for. This will justify the government to hire the additional 17,000 IRS agents to enforce the mandate. Big Brother will be watching everyone. Does this scenario bother anyone but me?
Let’s just make the system so that only those who need health coverage from this new system buy it. Insurance People: Does this sound like a good idea? How long do you think it will last? Those of you who choose NOT to buy coverage, shall we feel sorry for you when you get sick and have nothing? Or, will you just go to the ER, like so many uninsured people currently do now? Now THATS a great system. Guess who is paying for it? It’s a great system we have now, isn’t it? Wait…don’t we all pay into medicare?? Why are those Attys General from the various states not suing over that?? Just wondering.
This problem is much bigger than who has insurance or not. Currently carriers are assessed a % of their premiums to pay for insurance carriers who can’t sustain themselves – this gets passed back to comsumers. The incentive to keep folks healthy, therefore, out of the doctors office is simply no there. Why not tax McDonalds, Baskin Robbins, Wendy’s etc., our fast food society contributes heavily to the healthcare issue. What about illegal’s in our country, seeking healthcare? People having kids that can’t pay for the hospital bill to have the kid to begin with?
Debra, Your post makes very little sense to me. I think you must be very confused about how business operates. It makes little sense to further tax legitimate businesses because the public likes to eat there. All of the fast food restaurants offer a healthy menu now. If that was all they offered, they would not have any customers and would go out of business. Would that create jobs in our jobs scarce economy? I will agree that we shouldn’t be providing healthcare to illegals. They are putting a great deal of stress on healthcare providers all across the country and should be sent home.
Just make it a state mandate to receive any federal money.
They do that with everything anyway.
Healthcare reform droids look at hospital cost shifting, a strategy that may no longer be viable. http://www.healthcaretownhall.com/?p=3668