The spin doctors with the Administration will be working overtime to spin their way out of this. Everytime this bill is scored or new information comes out, it doubles in cost. We are running a deficit in this country of $1.4Trillion. If we add in the Obamacare deficits, we are up to almost $2Trillion each and every year. Progressives don’t worry about debt or how to pay for things. Their mantra is to tax the rich some more so income can be redistributed and we can have a more “fair” society. Hello Progressives! We are at the tipping point now. Go to Cuba if you want the state sponsored Healthcare.
Thousands of Americans would die to have the medical care they get in Cuba. In fact, most estimates are that over 40,000 Americans a year die because they are uninsured. That’s the equivalent of about one 9/11 attack per month. If it’s “United We Stand” against al-Qaeda, why don’t we at least give the same priority to fixing that casualty rate?
Well said. But, you won’t get much support here as everyone who posts here already has insurance. Oh yeah, so do the morons in congress who come up with more creative ways to portray “Obamacare” as the end of America as we know it instead of simply opening up access to 30 million more Americans who don’t have it now.
I want to see the study paramaters. Seeing as we can’t kick someone out of a hospital who needs immediate care, and the primary death I would anticipate those deaths being in at that piont would have to be a prolonged treatment (such as cancer) which you would then have to compare Cuba’s treatment system for cancer to and see how many of the 40,000 would survive in Cuba, you can see your “study” is ignorance.
The method of study is the matter of importance.
D: You’re a fool for taking such a study and not breaking it down as I just did.
The measure is everything. Studies show 40,000 people who were uninsured died. I could take this same measure to show how 40,000 people who were insured died too. I’m more intereted in the how, was coverage denied, did they receive treatment (which by law they have to, and very few people go untreated despite being uninsured) and why, and numbers. You can surely see how 40,000 uninsured people dying a year is a bullcrap number that means nothing.
And our esteemed Democratic Senator from Illinois, Durbin came out with an astonishing statement the other day. He said 1,000 more people would die each year if they weren’t driving hybrids or electric cars. This is the kind of mindset we have with Progressives. They just make things up to suit their agenda. What about the people that get run over in these dinky little cars and they blow up like the Volt does? I think I will stick with my crossover SUV. I feel a lot safer.
April 11, 2012 at 1:07 pm
Bob says:
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And in case I wasn’t clear: Cuba’s cancer surival rate, and or cancer treatment methods are sub par. It is doubtful that any of the 40,000 would have survived in Cuba. Show me they would have and I’ll agree with you. But your crap study does not prove they would.
Numbers Cassandra. Relevant numbers. Same to you D. Not sheep numbers. If you have a number connect it properly. Your ignorance is astounding.
Nothing like a George W. Bush advisor to “Clear up” some costs related to PPACA ? It appears he is saying savings are being counted twice in cost calculations; these charges are being refuted by the Obama administration.
Someone should hire this guy to analyze the $200 billion+ federal deficit increase expected if PPACA is thrown out by the US Supreme Court !
So, thinking producer, you dont think Govt Intrusion into Private Business does not increase cost no matter who is doing the math?
My Health Insurance Increase just came down last month. Increased my cost by over $1300 a month for just two people on the plan. Had to fire someone to cover the cost. Should I be able to hire again, no way anyone full time.
Not a fan of any politician from Illinois. Dont care who he / she is. All should be terminated right now. Even my local city hall. They want to build a 5 story building they think is necessary. All that will do is increase the already high vacancy rate. Even the joe average person in my town can see the empty buildings up and down main st (a major state highway). Our local corner allowed his employees to take personal property items out of the deceased peoples houses. Ban them all from holding any office. Start all over. In case you didnt notice, Il is right at the top of the list of states with convicted politicians.
So, to answer your question, I blame Gov Quinn for the 65% jump in taxxes I am paying.
Thinking, I don’t think you are thinking. Obama is to blame for increases going on in our industry. Carriers are looking at this and seeing they have to cover all pre-existing conditions, cover kids until they are 26, cover all the obese people who have problems and they quickly see that they can’t come out on this so they are raising rates as quickly as possible. Why do you think more than 2,000 Waivers have been granted to companies, unions from this law? Why are up to one third of all companies planning to drop Group coverage altogether? It is an affordability issue and they can’t stay in business with this impending monstrocity around the corner. The administration is hiring 4,000 new IRS agents to enforce this law and fine and tax people for not buying it.
Rates would have gone up regardless of the Healthcare Law. However, in the short-term, they are certainly going up, but in the long-term (which is what the government needs to do anyway), I argue that it’ll actually help control the increases, so they won’t go up as nearly fast as they would without it.
And please, Agent, quit parroting untrue statements. The IRS is not hiring 4000 agents to enforce it. They’ve already stated that they can handle it with existing staff, considering that there isn’t anything in the law that would require additional staff. All they will be checking is whether they have insurance or not. That’ll take less than 30 seconds per filing. Not arduous at all.
April 10, 2012 at 7:12 pm
Mike N says:
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Thinking Producer thinks there is a “free market” where health insurance is involved. To state there is a “free market” inhealth insurance, one would either have to have zero knowledge of how helath insurance works, or they are lying. Which is it?
Health insurance is one of the most highly regulated industries on the planet. One would probably have fewer rules and regulations if one were starting a nuclear power plant.
Your understanding of insurance rate regulation is a bit hazy. The PPACA legislation required a 80% Medical loss ratio for individual Health plans and 85% Medical Loss Ratio for groups of 50 or more. The industry was happy to have a much lower MLR especially for those in individual plans.
USA consumers should get good value for their premium dollars. Its amazing how much profit the current system generates for insurance carriers.
If PPACA is thrown out, It will be intersting to see what Congress can do to control health care costs. Congress is covered real well. They don’t have to worry about premium increases. We do !!!
April 11, 2012 at 11:05 am
Agent says:
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Hey Swede, You must be writing from Sweden and not staying up with the news here. It is all over the news how the Obama Administration has diverted $500 million to hire 4,000 more IRS agents to “help” people with their health insurance. In reality, they are going to check up on people and force them to buy or be fined or taxed, whichever it is. They can’t seem to make up their mind whether it is a fine or tax.
April 13, 2012 at 11:23 am
Vinnie Goomba says:
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Well, Non-Thinking Producer…Just whom should we be blaming?! I am sure you and all of your Progressive cronies are trying to find a way to blame George Bush…wait! Why not blame our Founding Fathers, as well! They are the ones who had the AUDACITY to create a free, CAPITALISTIC DEMOCRACY! The nerve of them!
Bush is gone. OBama created the bigger mess that is costing jobs (keystone pipeline) and real money using old math – the math I was taught in grade school – in the spike (not just increase) of my health care. I had to fire someone just to pay for it creating more unemployment. Just because I let someone go to cover the cost dont mean the work load slowed down. Working Sat & Sundays again just to stay on top of things diminishing my quality of life. I am missing out on all kinds of things with the Gr Kids and my wife because of OBama. Him and him only! things keep going like they are, I should quit my job so he can give me all the free hand outs too.
April 13, 2012 at 11:55 am
Agent says:
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Good post Vinnie. I prefer to call the founding fathers creation a Constitutional Republic of elected representatives. The Democrats prefer to call this country a Democracy and that is very messy indeed. Our representatives have not done a good job of representing the people for the past 30 years and that is why we can change them out at election time. I think a lot of the Progressives were changed out in the mid terms, but much remains to be done in November starting at the top. By the way, between the EPA and Obamacare, they are the biggest job killers in this country and they need to go away.
April 10, 2012 at 1:59 pm
TxLady says:
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In March of 2011 HHS Secy Kathleen Sebelius admitted at hearings that the Medicare savings were being double counted. Now the WH is saying it’s just new math. Very easy to research this and find info on what was said last March.
Sorry, nothing here. Just like the PR piece put out by Blahous. The scoring of the ACA is entirely consistent with how legislation has been scored for the 30 years, under Presidents of both parties, and Congresses of both parties.
He is on the payroll of Mercatus Center, which is funded by Koch Industries. He also spearheaded the privatization of Social Security for the Bush Administration. So, he then uses “new math” to come up with “new numbers.” Blahous, and other conservatives before him, are trying to superimpose an accounting system that would extend analysis over a much longer, and unrealistic, time frame. It’s a new math, by the way, that Republican Congresses have never used.
It is interesting to see you say the Mercatus Center is funded by Koch Industries. I looked that up. While they may be a donor, your statement made me think they were funding this 100%. That’s not true. Mercatur is funded by foundations, individuals and business. They are located at George Mason University.
“Blahous, and other conservatives before him, are trying to superimpose an accounting system that would extend analysis over a much longer, and unrealistic, time frame.” Yes, this strange accounting system, called GAAP. Of course, GAAP stands for “Generally Accepted Accounting Principles”, to which every single entity, aside from the federal government must adhere. If only those terrible Republicans would allow the fiscal charade to continue! I cannotbelieve those evil bastards are trying to get the government to actually ACCOUNT FOR THE ACCUMULATED DEBT! For shame!
If the federal government were to buy a no-deductible, no coinsurance HMO Kaiser plan for 30 million uninsureds, the total cost would be $148.32 BN (using Los Angeles rates of $412/mo).
Weren’t the uninsured the intended beneficiaries of PPACA? If they could be covered by the above amount, why is implementation of the entire act costing so much?
What will Republicans put in place of the “Affordable Care Act” if it’s repealed? They had a majority under Bush in his first term In those years, there was no attention paid to increasing access to health care, so people don’t have to go broke or lose their home when they get seriously ill. Oh yeah, I forgot about Medicare Part D. The largest expansion of healthcare access since Medicare itself. It was unfunded, created the legendary “donut hole” which defeated the purpose of the very idea of what it is supposed to do, make drugs available to medicare recipients. Let’s also remember the bill expressely forbids the US government from leveraging the purchasing power of more than 40 million Medicare beneficiaries to negotiate drug prices with the drug companies. Ah, so there it is. We all know who the Republicans in congress care about and ain’t you and me. They got some extra votes from the elderly population with their window dressing of a bill and covered their buddies in corporate America at the same time. Smart, yet sinister. The morons who crafted this piece of garbage, which helped erase the surplus under Clinton, cannot be trusted and some of them are the same guys pushing “death pannels” and other garbage. Read about how the Bush administration suppressed Medicare Chief Actuary’s Medicare Part D cost estimates. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/11/richard_foster_on_the_medicare.html
That’s a cute post. A couple facts for you, as it seems you’re severly lacking:
1. Medicare Part D was passed as the alternative to what the leftists were pushing, which was a model without any patient financial input. While I do not agree with the program, at least Bush’s has come in DRAMATICALLY UNDER THE COST ESTIMATES OF THE CBO. As opposed to EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM THE LEFTIST DEMOCRAT PARTY HAS EVER PUT TOGETHER.
2. “Purchasing power of medicare”? Hey, fool, it is the leftist democrat party in government who promised too much for medicare recipients to begin with. The problem is, the fact the government UDERPAYS for both medicare and medicaid, causes PRIVATE INSURACE rates to skyrocket. The leftist democrat party has completely scammed generations of Americans, and private health insruance can no longer cover for their lies. THIS IS WHY PRIVATE INSURANCE IS SO EXPENSIVE!
It sure must be nice to live in the land of leftists. Much like Peter Pan, they never seem to grow up. Force a program through which is underfunded and overpromised. Then, lard up more within that plan, all to buy a few more votes from suckers and fools. Then, add all sorts of regulations to destroy the ability of markets to work, and for the service to be provided by companies which have been doing do for decades. Then, drive up premiums further by suing, as to garner more trial lawyer campaing cash for more leftists.
And then, after all that, complain that the “free market” really isn’t working. Seriously, are you that stupid, or do you simply think we ALL are that stupid?
The “Bushies” passed Medicare Part D in the House by keeping voting open for hours deep into the night until they twisted enough arms to pass….THAT is when voting ended. A normal vote would have defeated the bill.
Drug companies don’t want the Federal government negotiating prices. Part D requires “Dual eligible” Americans…those eligible for Medicare and Medicaid to get THEIR drugs thru Medicare Part D. The drug prices are much more reasonable through Medicaid since States REALLY negotiate drug prices well. Drug companies benefit by forcing the Dual eligible into the higher drug prices of Medicare Part D. Thank your Bushies for costing the Federal government BIG $$$$$$$$$ more for the SAME drugs.
Excuse me Thinking Producer, When was Obamacare passed? I seem to remember something about in the middle of the night, and something about behind closed doors, and something about someone saying that “we had to pass it so we could find out what was in it.” People in glass houses should not be throwing stones.
And on Christmas Eve on a total party line vote and even that wouldn’t have gotten done if they didn’t bribe politicians with kickbacks.
MikeN:, great post but at the end you forgot the last step: BLAME BUSH!
April 11, 2012 at 8:09 pm
Thinking Producer says:
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Always Amazed seems to forget the “Death panel” brigade and “Govt takeover of Healthcare REPUBLICAN false claims ” The vote wasn’t done in the middle of the night. The Republicans couldn’t live with a government option, so Obama caved in to use Private Carriers. I’ll bet you get your “facts” from “Fix” news. My remote doesn’t even stop at that make it up channel.
April 11, 2012 at 9:07 am
D says:
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Uh, Mike? Relax, bro. The reason private medical insurance is so expensive is because the majority of the medical insurance market is employer sponsored. If you don’t see the power of 40 million Americans to have serious negotiating power against the drug companies you probably need to look up the term “leverage” in the dictionary. As far as the cost of prescriptions, about 30% of the costs come from marketing and advertising. This is why many people choose to purchase medicine in Canada.
Mike, you seem a little angry. You really did not support any of your arguments with facts. There was a lot of name calling (fool, Peter Pan, suckers, stupid). You sound like a screamer too. Maybe you should work at Fox. When you need to resort to those tactics you have already lost your argument.
If you don’t agree that Medicare Part D is a failure, maybe you can read this out of the New England Journal of Medicine from someone who probably has a better angle on it than the both of us. When you are done reading, take a deep breath and maybe go for a walk or get a massage and try to relax. Ok?
Actually D: He directed the only fact he had to, which disproved your statement.
What did Bush do, you implied nothing. What did he do: Something. The measure he used showed that the costs were under the anticipated amount. The something he did was measurably better than the something Obama did.
As a side note: Doing something can easily when measurably harmful, is worse than doing nothing.
Building capital is what insurance companies do. If you’re an agent (which I doubt) you would know why almost everyone here is against the healthcare law. It limits how much of a premium dollar can be invested for capital growth which can then be split for profits, and also payment of claims. Limiting the investment of premiums (by changing it so 80% of premiums have to go straight to healthcare instead of investments) limits the point of insurance and the ability to grow premiums to pay out more than the premiums paid in. You essentially have only 20% of premiums doing what private unpaid out in claims premiums are meant to do (grow to pay future claims, and pay profits) The profits are not bad when someone grows them to pay more. The average health cost in the U.S. is indeed something like 30-40% more than Canada. AND our companies run in the green. Medicare runs in red, and so does the healthcare system in Canada. If the healthcare industry is a trillion dollar industry in green, this means it by default is more efficient than a proportionate trillion dollar industry running in the red.
As a simple example: If I pay 200 a year with 200 matching into a 40k, for 35 years, the amount I will have on an average is about $2 million dollars at retirement. All of this is running green ink and costs the governement nothing. I “built” capital to pay me. Social security taxes. That is not built capital. It is a 1:1 ratio, dollar paid in, costs, dollar paid out. There is no possibility of surpassing that 1:1 ratio. Dollar paid in: Investment return 10% annually at a minimum, – expense costs – claims = small margin of profit. The following year you have that margin of profit in addition to the original amount 10% return on that. After 10 years you have grown a profit of incredible size. After 30 you have it even larger. Which has the ability to pay more? Answer: Private sector. Which pays out more? Private sector. Compare us to Canada and any country running in the red, which pays more without loss? The U.S. and the private sector. The private sector has the greater capacity. It isn’t even a question. They can grow capital while paying out. The ratio doesn’t have to be 1:1.
Thinking, I believe you continue to distort the facts of how this bill came about. You obviously are a MSNBC, NBC,ABC or CBS addict to get the Progressive talking points down. The Democrats and President rammed this legislation down our throat with “No” Republican support. I don’t think Obama caved on anything unless some of the Democrats insisted on it. Do you remember the Cornhusker kickback, the Louisiana Purchase to buy the votes needed for passage? The Blue Dog Democrats were pressured, cajoled to vote for it and they promptly lost in the mid terms in a historic shellacking. It is interesting that Democrats had majorities in both houses and still had a lot of trouble getting it passed. They just had to pass it so we could see what was in it. Now that we see, it is worse than we could imagine. Is it any wonder that more than half the states sued to repeal it? The Supremes need to get it right and strike this trash down.
Thinking Producer, as someone else said, I don’t think you’re thinking, at all. And what are you smoking? False claims; oh really? IF this monstrosity gets passed by the Supreme Court (God help us) we’ll just know how false these claims are. There will be rationing of medical care, if you want to call them death panels, so be it. It appears you have been enamored by all of Obama’s many speeches on let’s see – transparencies (still waiting for that one), and the one were he said that if he got the stimulus passed unemployment would be at 8% never happened, and that Owebama care would not cost the tax payers any money – bwahahahaha – sorry just had to let that out. Oh and how could I forget! Obama said it was unconstitutinal for Bush to raise the debit ceiling when Bush was in office – Guess he had to back peddle on that one too as with all the other promises he made to the blind sheep who followed him.
Thinking Producer, You most likely think there is FREE BIRTH CONTROLL too. Only free birth controll is for the ladies to keep their legs crossed and for men to keep the mouse in the house. Other wise, you play, you should pay. Accept responsibility.
April 12, 2012 at 12:41 pm
Agent says:
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Good post Always. Progressives will always deny there are Death Panels in this legislation. While it is not specifically worded that way, it does say there will be committees set up to decide on whether care is provided. Seniors will be denied all kinds of care since the bill takes $500 Billion away from Medicare over time and there will be no more hip replacements or other life saving surgeries for Seniors since they are no longer productive citizens. The bill also set up counseling for end of life. They basically will tell Seniors to take a pain pill and die. The cost savings from treating Seniors and earlier death of most will save them money. They are totally warped and must be stopped.
April 12, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Always Amazed says:
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Agent, I have read the same information that you obviously have also read on what is and what isn’t going to be covered in the government run health “scare” plan. I knew someone who had family in Germany; their cousin needed a hip replacement and consequently was in a lot of pain. They also had a surgeon in the family that could perform the hip replacement. The cousin was put on a “waiting list” and was told that the government would also be choosing the surgeon as well. It took months before the surgery could be schedule and the patient had to endure a lot of unnecessary pain. And, that will be exactly what will be going on here in the good old USA. However, for seniors, as you mentioned, this will not be an option. They’ll be put in wheelchairs and put out to pasture. And what these Progressives don’t seem to understand is that our government official won’t be on this plan. Why? If it’s so wonderful, why then pray tell, aren’t they going to be enrolled in it? If it’s good enough for us it should be just as good enough for them too.
April 11, 2012 at 10:04 am
Agent says:
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I see a lot of anger in these posts since this is the most divisive issue of our adult lives. This country seems to be on a downward spiral in so many ways. We have an out of control left wing government ramming an unpopular mandate filled Health Bill down our throats which adds hundreds of billions of dollars to the deficit which is unsustainable and some of you are still blaming Bush which is parroting this Administration. I guess you have been brainwashed by NBC, ABC, CBS. By the way D, Medicare Part D was passed by both sides of the aisle and was not rammed down our throat by Bush. Progressives from both sides equally participated. One of the biggest problems we face is Progressivism in government looking to government to solve all of life’s problems. Another big problem is disinformation spread by the liberal media such as the Washington Post and NY Times. D, you conveniently forgot that in the early years of Bush, we had been attacked on 9/11 and domestic issues had to be put on the back burner since the focus was to destroy those that attacked us.
Always, many have rightly criticized the Insurance Companies, HMO’s and other providers of Healthcare services over their practices, methods of payment or lack thereof for several years. These people will seem like choirboys compared to what the government bureaucrats are going to do if this bill is fully implemented. In addition, there are at least 20 new taxes worked into it including a 3.5% excise tax if you sell your home. What does that have to do with Healthcare? I could go on, but as I see it, there are 2,700 reasons why this bill needs to go away.
“..a former economic adviser in the George W. Bush White House..” Hmmm. The center that released this “study” is Koch funded. Hmmm. What Blahous calls “double counting” is actually the “unified budget process,” the “accounting method that considers the spending and revenues of the entire federal budget over a 10 year period and the way Congress keeps track of its dollars. Hmmm.
Always, Perhaps Swede700 should read your link before accusing us of making stuff up about the plans for the IRS and implementing this law. Obviously, he has been reading the Progressive talking points with Media Matters or Moveon.org.
One thing I know we are not making up is the dramatic increase in cost. Affordable must be new English like the new math? Maybe it means thats all we can afford and to he#@ with our mortgage.
What is affordable about this act for Middle America? On the one hand, the rich elite will always get the best health care because they can “afford” it. Our Federal Government, Congress have their own private plans and made sure they were exempt from Obamacare. The poor uninsured will be subsidized so it will basically be free to them. The ones that got stuck are the Middle Class/Small Business that has to live with this turkey. The Unions and Large business have gotten Waivers so they are good to go. The lying politicians say they are for the Middle Class and that is the very group that gets hurt the most.
Have a nice weekend Agent. If you live in or near Chicago, we should meet for a beer.
April 13, 2012 at 4:29 pm
Agent says:
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Always, that sounds nice. With all the stress we have in this business, a cold one comes in handy. You and Bob are my best allies in these discussions. We often have to put the people like Thinking Producer and D in their place since their arguments don’t hold water. I decided some time ago that Progressive’s have a mental disease and it is apparently incurable in most cases. I gave up that they will have a revelation and realize their theories are all wrong. Hopefully, there is enough of us to vote their leaders out in November. You have a tough fight in Chicago since it is machine controlled and there are a lot of nasty players there.
Come out to the Burbs. I’ll join you. Too many people getting shot for no reason in Chicago. I’ll have something a little stronger then beer. If I cant make a living other then to pay for health care, may as well become a full blown drunk so I can take advantage of the system.
FFA, I live on the north side of Chicago, much, much safer. The south side is just terrible. However, I have a lot of friends in the burgs so I am flexible.
Agent, yes, this is a Democratic town. I do know a lot of people who have opened there eyes though and now are voting Republican. Thank goodness.
Always, I am in N/E Texas and it is a bastion of conservatism. Obama’s approval ratings are 15-20% here and may be lower by November. Even the Black population here are having second thoughts and may vote differently this time. I feel for you up there dealing with Dead Fish Emanuel and Axelrod running the show.
One of my friends just moved to Texas. For obvious reasons, he could not stand Illinois politics any longer. Emanuel has been nothing but a disapointment for Chicago. And, yes, Axelrod is running the show. Quin is a joke. Texas just keeps sounding better and better!
I am currently looking for an Agency for sale in Wis so I can move my corporate hq as well as my family out of this sinking ship we call Illinois. Today, I am feeling the pain of Quinss 65% tax hike. Hitting me harder then I planned for. Hard to support 7 people no matter how much you make. Throw on the OBama Care factor, things are tight, very tight.
Good luck FFA. I am not sure Wisconsin is much better than Illinois since the Unions are determined to take that state back from Walker on a recall vote. You might be dealing with agency employees in a union there. If they win there, the taxes will be increased to pay for all the entitlements they get.
The 7 people I support are members of my HH. Two grown children cant find steady work. So, housing would be cheaper. I can take a bath here in IL on the sale of the house and still be able to swing a bigger house up there ayways. I suppose I can avoid the Union issue by hiring everyone part time. Thats what I have to do no matter to avoid having to add them to my Group Health. Then, they cant collect unemployment against me either.
None the less, I dont have to crunch the numbers until I find something.
Gee, there’s a surprise.
Who needed a study done to know this???
The spin doctors with the Administration will be working overtime to spin their way out of this. Everytime this bill is scored or new information comes out, it doubles in cost. We are running a deficit in this country of $1.4Trillion. If we add in the Obamacare deficits, we are up to almost $2Trillion each and every year. Progressives don’t worry about debt or how to pay for things. Their mantra is to tax the rich some more so income can be redistributed and we can have a more “fair” society. Hello Progressives! We are at the tipping point now. Go to Cuba if you want the state sponsored Healthcare.
Thousands of Americans would die to have the medical care they get in Cuba. In fact, most estimates are that over 40,000 Americans a year die because they are uninsured. That’s the equivalent of about one 9/11 attack per month. If it’s “United We Stand” against al-Qaeda, why don’t we at least give the same priority to fixing that casualty rate?
Well said. But, you won’t get much support here as everyone who posts here already has insurance. Oh yeah, so do the morons in congress who come up with more creative ways to portray “Obamacare” as the end of America as we know it instead of simply opening up access to 30 million more Americans who don’t have it now.
Casandra:
I want to see the study paramaters. Seeing as we can’t kick someone out of a hospital who needs immediate care, and the primary death I would anticipate those deaths being in at that piont would have to be a prolonged treatment (such as cancer) which you would then have to compare Cuba’s treatment system for cancer to and see how many of the 40,000 would survive in Cuba, you can see your “study” is ignorance.
The method of study is the matter of importance.
D: You’re a fool for taking such a study and not breaking it down as I just did.
The measure is everything. Studies show 40,000 people who were uninsured died. I could take this same measure to show how 40,000 people who were insured died too. I’m more intereted in the how, was coverage denied, did they receive treatment (which by law they have to, and very few people go untreated despite being uninsured) and why, and numbers. You can surely see how 40,000 uninsured people dying a year is a bullcrap number that means nothing.
And our esteemed Democratic Senator from Illinois, Durbin came out with an astonishing statement the other day. He said 1,000 more people would die each year if they weren’t driving hybrids or electric cars. This is the kind of mindset we have with Progressives. They just make things up to suit their agenda. What about the people that get run over in these dinky little cars and they blow up like the Volt does? I think I will stick with my crossover SUV. I feel a lot safer.
And in case I wasn’t clear: Cuba’s cancer surival rate, and or cancer treatment methods are sub par. It is doubtful that any of the 40,000 would have survived in Cuba. Show me they would have and I’ll agree with you. But your crap study does not prove they would.
Numbers Cassandra. Relevant numbers. Same to you D. Not sheep numbers. If you have a number connect it properly. Your ignorance is astounding.
Nothing like a George W. Bush advisor to “Clear up” some costs related to PPACA ? It appears he is saying savings are being counted twice in cost calculations; these charges are being refuted by the Obama administration.
Someone should hire this guy to analyze the $200 billion+ federal deficit increase expected if PPACA is thrown out by the US Supreme Court !
So, thinking producer, you dont think Govt Intrusion into Private Business does not increase cost no matter who is doing the math?
My Health Insurance Increase just came down last month. Increased my cost by over $1300 a month for just two people on the plan. Had to fire someone to cover the cost. Should I be able to hire again, no way anyone full time.
Your increased premiums are certainly NOT a positive for the “Free market” system. Next you’ll blame Obama for your increase….
Not a fan of any politician from Illinois. Dont care who he / she is. All should be terminated right now. Even my local city hall. They want to build a 5 story building they think is necessary. All that will do is increase the already high vacancy rate. Even the joe average person in my town can see the empty buildings up and down main st (a major state highway). Our local corner allowed his employees to take personal property items out of the deceased peoples houses. Ban them all from holding any office. Start all over. In case you didnt notice, Il is right at the top of the list of states with convicted politicians.
So, to answer your question, I blame Gov Quinn for the 65% jump in taxxes I am paying.
Thinking, I don’t think you are thinking. Obama is to blame for increases going on in our industry. Carriers are looking at this and seeing they have to cover all pre-existing conditions, cover kids until they are 26, cover all the obese people who have problems and they quickly see that they can’t come out on this so they are raising rates as quickly as possible. Why do you think more than 2,000 Waivers have been granted to companies, unions from this law? Why are up to one third of all companies planning to drop Group coverage altogether? It is an affordability issue and they can’t stay in business with this impending monstrocity around the corner. The administration is hiring 4,000 new IRS agents to enforce this law and fine and tax people for not buying it.
Rates would have gone up regardless of the Healthcare Law. However, in the short-term, they are certainly going up, but in the long-term (which is what the government needs to do anyway), I argue that it’ll actually help control the increases, so they won’t go up as nearly fast as they would without it.
And please, Agent, quit parroting untrue statements. The IRS is not hiring 4000 agents to enforce it. They’ve already stated that they can handle it with existing staff, considering that there isn’t anything in the law that would require additional staff. All they will be checking is whether they have insurance or not. That’ll take less than 30 seconds per filing. Not arduous at all.
Thinking Producer thinks there is a “free market” where health insurance is involved. To state there is a “free market” inhealth insurance, one would either have to have zero knowledge of how helath insurance works, or they are lying. Which is it?
Health insurance is one of the most highly regulated industries on the planet. One would probably have fewer rules and regulations if one were starting a nuclear power plant.
Your understanding of insurance rate regulation is a bit hazy. The PPACA legislation required a 80% Medical loss ratio for individual Health plans and 85% Medical Loss Ratio for groups of 50 or more. The industry was happy to have a much lower MLR especially for those in individual plans.
USA consumers should get good value for their premium dollars. Its amazing how much profit the current system generates for insurance carriers.
If PPACA is thrown out, It will be intersting to see what Congress can do to control health care costs. Congress is covered real well. They don’t have to worry about premium increases. We do !!!
Hey Swede, You must be writing from Sweden and not staying up with the news here. It is all over the news how the Obama Administration has diverted $500 million to hire 4,000 more IRS agents to “help” people with their health insurance. In reality, they are going to check up on people and force them to buy or be fined or taxed, whichever it is. They can’t seem to make up their mind whether it is a fine or tax.
Well, Non-Thinking Producer…Just whom should we be blaming?! I am sure you and all of your Progressive cronies are trying to find a way to blame George Bush…wait! Why not blame our Founding Fathers, as well! They are the ones who had the AUDACITY to create a free, CAPITALISTIC DEMOCRACY! The nerve of them!
Bush is gone. OBama created the bigger mess that is costing jobs (keystone pipeline) and real money using old math – the math I was taught in grade school – in the spike (not just increase) of my health care. I had to fire someone just to pay for it creating more unemployment. Just because I let someone go to cover the cost dont mean the work load slowed down. Working Sat & Sundays again just to stay on top of things diminishing my quality of life. I am missing out on all kinds of things with the Gr Kids and my wife because of OBama. Him and him only! things keep going like they are, I should quit my job so he can give me all the free hand outs too.
Good post Vinnie. I prefer to call the founding fathers creation a Constitutional Republic of elected representatives. The Democrats prefer to call this country a Democracy and that is very messy indeed. Our representatives have not done a good job of representing the people for the past 30 years and that is why we can change them out at election time. I think a lot of the Progressives were changed out in the mid terms, but much remains to be done in November starting at the top. By the way, between the EPA and Obamacare, they are the biggest job killers in this country and they need to go away.
In March of 2011 HHS Secy Kathleen Sebelius admitted at hearings that the Medicare savings were being double counted. Now the WH is saying it’s just new math. Very easy to research this and find info on what was said last March.
Sorry, nothing here. Just like the PR piece put out by Blahous. The scoring of the ACA is entirely consistent with how legislation has been scored for the 30 years, under Presidents of both parties, and Congresses of both parties.
He is on the payroll of Mercatus Center, which is funded by Koch Industries. He also spearheaded the privatization of Social Security for the Bush Administration. So, he then uses “new math” to come up with “new numbers.” Blahous, and other conservatives before him, are trying to superimpose an accounting system that would extend analysis over a much longer, and unrealistic, time frame. It’s a new math, by the way, that Republican Congresses have never used.
It is interesting to see you say the Mercatus Center is funded by Koch Industries. I looked that up. While they may be a donor, your statement made me think they were funding this 100%. That’s not true. Mercatur is funded by foundations, individuals and business. They are located at George Mason University.
“Blahous, and other conservatives before him, are trying to superimpose an accounting system that would extend analysis over a much longer, and unrealistic, time frame.” Yes, this strange accounting system, called GAAP. Of course, GAAP stands for “Generally Accepted Accounting Principles”, to which every single entity, aside from the federal government must adhere. If only those terrible Republicans would allow the fiscal charade to continue! I cannotbelieve those evil bastards are trying to get the government to actually ACCOUNT FOR THE ACCUMULATED DEBT! For shame!
If the federal government were to buy a no-deductible, no coinsurance HMO Kaiser plan for 30 million uninsureds, the total cost would be $148.32 BN (using Los Angeles rates of $412/mo).
Weren’t the uninsured the intended beneficiaries of PPACA? If they could be covered by the above amount, why is implementation of the entire act costing so much?
Any uninsured people care to comment? Are there any uninsured people who comment on this site? Just wondering what they have to say.
What will Republicans put in place of the “Affordable Care Act” if it’s repealed? They had a majority under Bush in his first term In those years, there was no attention paid to increasing access to health care, so people don’t have to go broke or lose their home when they get seriously ill. Oh yeah, I forgot about Medicare Part D. The largest expansion of healthcare access since Medicare itself. It was unfunded, created the legendary “donut hole” which defeated the purpose of the very idea of what it is supposed to do, make drugs available to medicare recipients. Let’s also remember the bill expressely forbids the US government from leveraging the purchasing power of more than 40 million Medicare beneficiaries to negotiate drug prices with the drug companies. Ah, so there it is. We all know who the Republicans in congress care about and ain’t you and me. They got some extra votes from the elderly population with their window dressing of a bill and covered their buddies in corporate America at the same time. Smart, yet sinister. The morons who crafted this piece of garbage, which helped erase the surplus under Clinton, cannot be trusted and some of them are the same guys pushing “death pannels” and other garbage. Read about how the Bush administration suppressed Medicare Chief Actuary’s Medicare Part D cost estimates. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/11/richard_foster_on_the_medicare.html
Hopefully Tort Reform. But, like any politician out there, they will talk and it will be cheap.
That’s a cute post. A couple facts for you, as it seems you’re severly lacking:
1. Medicare Part D was passed as the alternative to what the leftists were pushing, which was a model without any patient financial input. While I do not agree with the program, at least Bush’s has come in DRAMATICALLY UNDER THE COST ESTIMATES OF THE CBO. As opposed to EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM THE LEFTIST DEMOCRAT PARTY HAS EVER PUT TOGETHER.
2. “Purchasing power of medicare”? Hey, fool, it is the leftist democrat party in government who promised too much for medicare recipients to begin with. The problem is, the fact the government UDERPAYS for both medicare and medicaid, causes PRIVATE INSURACE rates to skyrocket. The leftist democrat party has completely scammed generations of Americans, and private health insruance can no longer cover for their lies. THIS IS WHY PRIVATE INSURANCE IS SO EXPENSIVE!
It sure must be nice to live in the land of leftists. Much like Peter Pan, they never seem to grow up. Force a program through which is underfunded and overpromised. Then, lard up more within that plan, all to buy a few more votes from suckers and fools. Then, add all sorts of regulations to destroy the ability of markets to work, and for the service to be provided by companies which have been doing do for decades. Then, drive up premiums further by suing, as to garner more trial lawyer campaing cash for more leftists.
And then, after all that, complain that the “free market” really isn’t working. Seriously, are you that stupid, or do you simply think we ALL are that stupid?
The “Bushies” passed Medicare Part D in the House by keeping voting open for hours deep into the night until they twisted enough arms to pass….THAT is when voting ended. A normal vote would have defeated the bill.
Drug companies don’t want the Federal government negotiating prices. Part D requires “Dual eligible” Americans…those eligible for Medicare and Medicaid to get THEIR drugs thru Medicare Part D. The drug prices are much more reasonable through Medicaid since States REALLY negotiate drug prices well. Drug companies benefit by forcing the Dual eligible into the higher drug prices of Medicare Part D. Thank your Bushies for costing the Federal government BIG $$$$$$$$$ more for the SAME drugs.
Excuse me Thinking Producer, When was Obamacare passed? I seem to remember something about in the middle of the night, and something about behind closed doors, and something about someone saying that “we had to pass it so we could find out what was in it.” People in glass houses should not be throwing stones.
And on Christmas Eve on a total party line vote and even that wouldn’t have gotten done if they didn’t bribe politicians with kickbacks.
MikeN:, great post but at the end you forgot the last step: BLAME BUSH!
Always Amazed seems to forget the “Death panel” brigade and “Govt takeover of Healthcare REPUBLICAN false claims ” The vote wasn’t done in the middle of the night. The Republicans couldn’t live with a government option, so Obama caved in to use Private Carriers. I’ll bet you get your “facts” from “Fix” news. My remote doesn’t even stop at that make it up channel.
Uh, Mike? Relax, bro. The reason private medical insurance is so expensive is because the majority of the medical insurance market is employer sponsored. If you don’t see the power of 40 million Americans to have serious negotiating power against the drug companies you probably need to look up the term “leverage” in the dictionary. As far as the cost of prescriptions, about 30% of the costs come from marketing and advertising. This is why many people choose to purchase medicine in Canada.
Mike, you seem a little angry. You really did not support any of your arguments with facts. There was a lot of name calling (fool, Peter Pan, suckers, stupid). You sound like a screamer too. Maybe you should work at Fox. When you need to resort to those tactics you have already lost your argument.
If you don’t agree that Medicare Part D is a failure, maybe you can read this out of the New England Journal of Medicine from someone who probably has a better angle on it than the both of us. When you are done reading, take a deep breath and maybe go for a walk or get a massage and try to relax. Ok?
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp068116
Actually D: He directed the only fact he had to, which disproved your statement.
What did Bush do, you implied nothing. What did he do: Something. The measure he used showed that the costs were under the anticipated amount. The something he did was measurably better than the something Obama did.
As a side note: Doing something can easily when measurably harmful, is worse than doing nothing.
Building capital is what insurance companies do. If you’re an agent (which I doubt) you would know why almost everyone here is against the healthcare law. It limits how much of a premium dollar can be invested for capital growth which can then be split for profits, and also payment of claims. Limiting the investment of premiums (by changing it so 80% of premiums have to go straight to healthcare instead of investments) limits the point of insurance and the ability to grow premiums to pay out more than the premiums paid in. You essentially have only 20% of premiums doing what private unpaid out in claims premiums are meant to do (grow to pay future claims, and pay profits) The profits are not bad when someone grows them to pay more. The average health cost in the U.S. is indeed something like 30-40% more than Canada. AND our companies run in the green. Medicare runs in red, and so does the healthcare system in Canada. If the healthcare industry is a trillion dollar industry in green, this means it by default is more efficient than a proportionate trillion dollar industry running in the red.
As a simple example: If I pay 200 a year with 200 matching into a 40k, for 35 years, the amount I will have on an average is about $2 million dollars at retirement. All of this is running green ink and costs the governement nothing. I “built” capital to pay me. Social security taxes. That is not built capital. It is a 1:1 ratio, dollar paid in, costs, dollar paid out. There is no possibility of surpassing that 1:1 ratio. Dollar paid in: Investment return 10% annually at a minimum, – expense costs – claims = small margin of profit. The following year you have that margin of profit in addition to the original amount 10% return on that. After 10 years you have grown a profit of incredible size. After 30 you have it even larger. Which has the ability to pay more? Answer: Private sector. Which pays out more? Private sector. Compare us to Canada and any country running in the red, which pays more without loss? The U.S. and the private sector. The private sector has the greater capacity. It isn’t even a question. They can grow capital while paying out. The ratio doesn’t have to be 1:1.
Thinking, I believe you continue to distort the facts of how this bill came about. You obviously are a MSNBC, NBC,ABC or CBS addict to get the Progressive talking points down. The Democrats and President rammed this legislation down our throat with “No” Republican support. I don’t think Obama caved on anything unless some of the Democrats insisted on it. Do you remember the Cornhusker kickback, the Louisiana Purchase to buy the votes needed for passage? The Blue Dog Democrats were pressured, cajoled to vote for it and they promptly lost in the mid terms in a historic shellacking. It is interesting that Democrats had majorities in both houses and still had a lot of trouble getting it passed. They just had to pass it so we could see what was in it. Now that we see, it is worse than we could imagine. Is it any wonder that more than half the states sued to repeal it? The Supremes need to get it right and strike this trash down.
Thinking Producer, as someone else said, I don’t think you’re thinking, at all. And what are you smoking? False claims; oh really? IF this monstrosity gets passed by the Supreme Court (God help us) we’ll just know how false these claims are. There will be rationing of medical care, if you want to call them death panels, so be it. It appears you have been enamored by all of Obama’s many speeches on let’s see – transparencies (still waiting for that one), and the one were he said that if he got the stimulus passed unemployment would be at 8% never happened, and that Owebama care would not cost the tax payers any money – bwahahahaha – sorry just had to let that out. Oh and how could I forget! Obama said it was unconstitutinal for Bush to raise the debit ceiling when Bush was in office – Guess he had to back peddle on that one too as with all the other promises he made to the blind sheep who followed him.
Thinking Producer, You most likely think there is FREE BIRTH CONTROLL too. Only free birth controll is for the ladies to keep their legs crossed and for men to keep the mouse in the house. Other wise, you play, you should pay. Accept responsibility.
Good post Always. Progressives will always deny there are Death Panels in this legislation. While it is not specifically worded that way, it does say there will be committees set up to decide on whether care is provided. Seniors will be denied all kinds of care since the bill takes $500 Billion away from Medicare over time and there will be no more hip replacements or other life saving surgeries for Seniors since they are no longer productive citizens. The bill also set up counseling for end of life. They basically will tell Seniors to take a pain pill and die. The cost savings from treating Seniors and earlier death of most will save them money. They are totally warped and must be stopped.
Agent, I have read the same information that you obviously have also read on what is and what isn’t going to be covered in the government run health “scare” plan. I knew someone who had family in Germany; their cousin needed a hip replacement and consequently was in a lot of pain. They also had a surgeon in the family that could perform the hip replacement. The cousin was put on a “waiting list” and was told that the government would also be choosing the surgeon as well. It took months before the surgery could be schedule and the patient had to endure a lot of unnecessary pain. And, that will be exactly what will be going on here in the good old USA. However, for seniors, as you mentioned, this will not be an option. They’ll be put in wheelchairs and put out to pasture. And what these Progressives don’t seem to understand is that our government official won’t be on this plan. Why? If it’s so wonderful, why then pray tell, aren’t they going to be enrolled in it? If it’s good enough for us it should be just as good enough for them too.
I see a lot of anger in these posts since this is the most divisive issue of our adult lives. This country seems to be on a downward spiral in so many ways. We have an out of control left wing government ramming an unpopular mandate filled Health Bill down our throats which adds hundreds of billions of dollars to the deficit which is unsustainable and some of you are still blaming Bush which is parroting this Administration. I guess you have been brainwashed by NBC, ABC, CBS. By the way D, Medicare Part D was passed by both sides of the aisle and was not rammed down our throat by Bush. Progressives from both sides equally participated. One of the biggest problems we face is Progressivism in government looking to government to solve all of life’s problems. Another big problem is disinformation spread by the liberal media such as the Washington Post and NY Times. D, you conveniently forgot that in the early years of Bush, we had been attacked on 9/11 and domestic issues had to be put on the back burner since the focus was to destroy those that attacked us.
Always, many have rightly criticized the Insurance Companies, HMO’s and other providers of Healthcare services over their practices, methods of payment or lack thereof for several years. These people will seem like choirboys compared to what the government bureaucrats are going to do if this bill is fully implemented. In addition, there are at least 20 new taxes worked into it including a 3.5% excise tax if you sell your home. What does that have to do with Healthcare? I could go on, but as I see it, there are 2,700 reasons why this bill needs to go away.
“..a former economic adviser in the George W. Bush White House..” Hmmm. The center that released this “study” is Koch funded. Hmmm. What Blahous calls “double counting” is actually the “unified budget process,” the “accounting method that considers the spending and revenues of the entire federal budget over a 10 year period and the way Congress keeps track of its dollars. Hmmm.
Sounds like more “Death Panels”.
http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/220475-white-house-has-diverted-500m-to-irs-to-implement-health-law.
Read it an weep.
Always, Perhaps Swede700 should read your link before accusing us of making stuff up about the plans for the IRS and implementing this law. Obviously, he has been reading the Progressive talking points with Media Matters or Moveon.org.
One thing I know we are not making up is the dramatic increase in cost. Affordable must be new English like the new math? Maybe it means thats all we can afford and to he#@ with our mortgage.
What is affordable about this act for Middle America? On the one hand, the rich elite will always get the best health care because they can “afford” it. Our Federal Government, Congress have their own private plans and made sure they were exempt from Obamacare. The poor uninsured will be subsidized so it will basically be free to them. The ones that got stuck are the Middle Class/Small Business that has to live with this turkey. The Unions and Large business have gotten Waivers so they are good to go. The lying politicians say they are for the Middle Class and that is the very group that gets hurt the most.
Have a nice weekend Agent. If you live in or near Chicago, we should meet for a beer.
Always, that sounds nice. With all the stress we have in this business, a cold one comes in handy. You and Bob are my best allies in these discussions. We often have to put the people like Thinking Producer and D in their place since their arguments don’t hold water. I decided some time ago that Progressive’s have a mental disease and it is apparently incurable in most cases. I gave up that they will have a revelation and realize their theories are all wrong. Hopefully, there is enough of us to vote their leaders out in November. You have a tough fight in Chicago since it is machine controlled and there are a lot of nasty players there.
Come out to the Burbs. I’ll join you. Too many people getting shot for no reason in Chicago. I’ll have something a little stronger then beer. If I cant make a living other then to pay for health care, may as well become a full blown drunk so I can take advantage of the system.
FFA, I live on the north side of Chicago, much, much safer. The south side is just terrible. However, I have a lot of friends in the burgs so I am flexible.
Agent, yes, this is a Democratic town. I do know a lot of people who have opened there eyes though and now are voting Republican. Thank goodness.
Always, I am in N/E Texas and it is a bastion of conservatism. Obama’s approval ratings are 15-20% here and may be lower by November. Even the Black population here are having second thoughts and may vote differently this time. I feel for you up there dealing with Dead Fish Emanuel and Axelrod running the show.
One of my friends just moved to Texas. For obvious reasons, he could not stand Illinois politics any longer. Emanuel has been nothing but a disapointment for Chicago. And, yes, Axelrod is running the show. Quin is a joke. Texas just keeps sounding better and better!
I am currently looking for an Agency for sale in Wis so I can move my corporate hq as well as my family out of this sinking ship we call Illinois. Today, I am feeling the pain of Quinss 65% tax hike. Hitting me harder then I planned for. Hard to support 7 people no matter how much you make. Throw on the OBama Care factor, things are tight, very tight.
Good luck FFA. I am not sure Wisconsin is much better than Illinois since the Unions are determined to take that state back from Walker on a recall vote. You might be dealing with agency employees in a union there. If they win there, the taxes will be increased to pay for all the entitlements they get.
The 7 people I support are members of my HH. Two grown children cant find steady work. So, housing would be cheaper. I can take a bath here in IL on the sale of the house and still be able to swing a bigger house up there ayways. I suppose I can avoid the Union issue by hiring everyone part time. Thats what I have to do no matter to avoid having to add them to my Group Health. Then, they cant collect unemployment against me either.
None the less, I dont have to crunch the numbers until I find something.