“It would also reduce barriers for legal marijuana businesses to get access to banking.”
In addition to allowing robust testing of marijuana’s risks and benefits, and not just limited testing on a single low-potency strain, this is one major reason why marijuana needs to be removed from being listed as a Schedule One drug.
I agree that this should be the next step in the process, but do you think this will aid in reducing the black market for cannabis (and all the crime involved) or only worsen it?
With the amount of federal taxing on top of the state taxes cannabis growers already face, I feel this will force small, honest farms to either shut down or sell since the cost of complying with the law may exceed overall profits. Small farmers should be rewarded for adhering to the law, not be run out of business.
To me, this seems like it will only feed the black market and may cause more issues. A lot of these farms have been operating illegally, resorting to violence to ensure it stays that way, since cannabis was outlawed and will continue to do so now to evade the extra taxes/fees as well.
Well, there will always be a black market for marijuana no matter what laws change. If that is an increase or decrease in the market’s current levels, it’s tough to gauge on such limited data.
If we solely look at places like Murder Mountain, there’s no doubt increased regulations that drive up legal prices will cause the black market to continue to be a viable solution for low-cost marijuana.
If we look at places that didn’t have decades worth of illegal grow operations, it may be easier to break into the legal market since everyone is on the same playing field (you can grow 3 plants or 30 plants and the percentage of tax you pay to sell it legally is static).
If we look at people who want to ensure they’re getting a quality product not treated with pesticides or similar types of chemicals, I think those people would be happy to spend more money to buy their product legally.
To answer your question honestly — I don’t know. I realize the black market won’t go away, but I also think places that abide by the laws can still make a profit doing things on the up-and-up.
True, it is likely wishful thinking to assume the black market would take a U-turn after legalizing cannabis, even federally. Some places will be easier than others and can hopefully stabilize the industry, relatively speaking, as a legal/profitable market. Regardless, it will take time and there will most likely be unforeseen consequences no matter which way the cookie crumbles.
Thank you for your response, I appreciate your views on the matter.
My pleasure HQ. I may not always agree with you, but if you source your data when asked, refrain from personal attacks, don’t put words in my mouth nor make straw man arguments, I’ll be happy to keep discussing and debating.
February 12, 2019 at 2:35 pm
Yup says:
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I think both your assessments are accurate. However I think it would be expected that the black market would decrease significantly once there is full legalization. Using Oregon as an example, and how it operates it’s marijuana laws now, granted it is in a disaster currently, businesses are failing, it cannot export it’s product, but it is by far the cheapest option in the country because of the excess in competition. Once the barriers are removed the price will regulate and drop to be more consistent with that of the black market. the price may always be slightly higher, but convenience will outweigh the price difference at that point.
February 15, 2019 at 4:00 pm
mrbob says:
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Although not the same product I would think that there would be a relative comparison on black market sale of Marijuana and the black market sale of Liquor. Just look at the cots involved with black market liquor during prohibition and one would think that you would have your answer. Typically poor quality liquor at high prices under prohibition and during the years after although fairly high relative taxes still cheaper and higher quality.
Sure there is still some black market but can you point me to the last time anyone you know had personally consume white lightning. No one I know of would even drink the stuff.
February 11, 2019 at 1:26 pm
Honest Response says:
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You almost surely nailed the correct variable: federal taxation. I have never understood the mantra, “Legalize and tax the **** out of it.” Look what happened to Eric Garner for selling cigarettes, which are heavily taxed by the feds. Bootlegging has experienced a comeback, too, thanks to absurdly high tax rates.
Legalize it and drop the federal tax altogether or at least to a reasonable level.
Not really answering my question. I do realize it was a bit vague. So, a little more specific.
Lets say I drive to Colorado and buy for personal / medical use in a state that does not allow for. I end up getting pulled over in a state that it is not legal for a tail light / speeding what ever.
Cop finds what I am transporting and does what? “.
You will get arrested for possession of an illegal substance based on the laws in the state in which you’re pulled over. If you’re in a state that legalized it but are transporting illegally (say it’s in your unlocked glove box or trunk), you’d get fined. It’s the same as if you transported fireworks from a legal state to one where it’s illegal. The laws of the state you’re in is what’s applied. Not saying you are, but ignorance of the law in whichever state you’re in is not an excuse.
Agreed – but if you bought something legally in one state (marijuana, fireworks, certain types of alcohol) and bring it to a state where it’s illegal, and you’re caught with it in the illegal state – you’re guilty of being in possession of an illegal item.
Let’s be honest. The Black Market is growing in states that legalized recreational weed because there is no fear of prosecution now. California reported lower sales in legal dispensaries in 2018 than in 2017, when only Medi-pot was legal.
Who is suprised that tax revenue from legal pot is 40% below the promises? Only Democrats who lived in fantasy land.
You think the pro-pot Democrats are going to become Law and Order tough guys with people who grow pot outside of the legal system? Please.
Cops know the reality and won’t bother being demonized if they don’t have the backing of the Democrats in most states for chasing illegal pot growers.
The Black Market is going to get bigger. Congratulations Pot Fans!
If the majority of the black market stays intact after the full legalization of weed, I’m almost certain the farmers who are already not paying state taxes will not start paying more taxes. Do you think the government, or even the IRS, would step in then?
Sounds ridiculous, but maybe tax evasion could be the way to bring these people to justice, even if justice is only a few years in prison and a small fine.
Craig, cops see the effects of what the pot heads do in their quest for the next fix. They see the scromiting from all the heavy users that spur more emergency room visits as well. If it isn’t scromiting, it is the loss of cognitive function.
Good one Polar. Between the Global Warming hoax articles and the Marijuana legalization articles, there is not much else to read. Makes me wonder what kind of writers they have at IJ. Dare I say very liberal?
It’s sad that the cowards that moderate these sections don’t see any problem with Agent or Craig or their ilk. Unfortunately it speaks to their own political bias, but while these types may currently be the majority they are aging quickly and will soon be forgotten.
The difference between right and wrong will never be forgotten.
February 12, 2019 at 9:01 pm
Craig Cornell says:
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You might want to check your Ark of History there, lefty. Over in Europe, they are going through the same rejection of liberal economic idiocy and PC babble that is being rejected here. Wise people predict a violent revolution in France. France!
Talk to some young people in the USA. A majority can’t stand identity politics, the only thing holding Democrats together at this point.
February 12, 2019 at 10:13 pm
Jerry says:
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Surprise, your mention of “rejection of liberal blah blah blah” leaves out the rise of white nationalism. You once again ignore common sense so let’s go to the heart of it: You are a sad old lonely man.
February 13, 2019 at 8:41 am
PolarBeaRepeal says:
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@jerry; what is wrong with posting conservative opinions on a private, not public, comment board that regulates speech to the extent it is not offensive, etc.? (See terms of use at bottom of the page)
You were probably taught by your teachers that free speech actually means free speech for liberals and censorship of conservatives.
Please elaborate on how Conservatives broke board rules by making conservative comments.
FFA, you are right. We know right from wrong and people like Jerry and Planet don’t. I point them to Ecclesiastes 10:2.
I wish you well up there on the frozen tundra of Wisconsin. Bet you are burning a bit of firewood this winter, much to the disdain of the New Green deal Dems.
If you preach the bible and point people in its direction, you should follow it closer then you seem to think. You are passing judgment on others when the bible says you should not. Those that use your passage that about the wise man heart on the right does not correlate to the political spectrum.
Disagreeing with people is healthy in a society, but using a passage from your own religion to justify your political affiliation is an odious method, Mike.
Please do not use those things to further a illegitimate point you are trying to make. Please debate like an adult on this professional site.
Helpingout, they’re trolls. You can’t expect them to make an actual rational argument or listen to reason. They’re trying to spout their biased agenda and will insult and deny anyone who points out their inconsistencies, straw man tactics, and outright lies. I’ve taken to just insulting them, and the cowardly Insurance Journal moderators who leave their trash on this board. You do you, though! It’s an insurance magazine, this person isn’t seriously pointing to the bible after the garbage he’s spouted today alone on this board.
People without ideas resort to Ad Hominem attacks? “Sad, old, lonely man.”
You are pathetic, a third grade name caller who couldn’t come up with a decent liberal idea if your life depended on it. Because there ain’t one.
“White Nationalism!” Oh, the Boogey Man! Tell me the percentage of the country made up with white nationalists, and please cite a respected source.
Look in the mirror: Americans are rejecting your nonsense.
Been burning a bunch thats for sure. With the lay of the land up here, this 12″ + we got yesterday makes it difficult to get to the stack.Took me three hours to plow a path out of the driveway last night. My little John Deere once again got the job done. Nothing runs like a deere,
Havent read much about the new green deal, but the source of it tells me not to bother. She isn’t making many friends thats for sure.
That Dem / Muslim from Minn spewing that anti Jew crap, if she was a republican she would be gone already. Talk about a 2x standard. If it was an old white guy, he would be gone by now.
Off topic, did you catch the new Football League last week end? I did miss it, but reviews in the news were positive. Gonna make sure I catch it this week end.
Great, Agent – now follow up that Old Testament with a little of your New Testament – The Gospel of Supply Side Jesus. Too bad you didn’t meet Tammy Faye, first.
Let’s see if I can match Jerry’s shots: “cowards” “sad, lonely old man” “cowardly Insurance Journal monitors” “outright lies” “aging quickly and will soon be forgotten” “I’ve taken to just insulting them” . . . and that’s only in the comments on this one article!
Jerry – We respectfully request that all commenters refrain from insults towards one another, avoid profanities and show respect for others at all times. If you or anyone else can’t make your point without insulting another person’s intelligence, morals, ethnicity, character or other trait, then please don’t post it. Those who engage in such behaviors ruin the forum experience for the majority who follow the rules of civil discourse.
You know what Craig – ignore my last post. Here’s a comment directed to Jerry (and you, among others)
We respectfully request that all commenters refrain from insults towards one another, avoid profanities and show respect for others at all times. If you or anyone else can’t make your point without insulting another person’s intelligence, morals, ethnicity, character or other trait, then please don’t post it. Those who engage in such behaviors ruin the forum experience for the majority who follow the rules of civil discourse.
I don’t call people liars or hypocrites without proof. The last time I caught you lying was when you claimed you ONLY insult people if they insult you first. You claimed you NEVER insult someone first, yet in that same discussion, you insulted me when I had not insulted you.
Craig, 3 million cases of scromiting have been treated so far. What a waste of our medical system dollars.
By the way, Elijah Holyfield, son of Evander Holyfield just got caught smoking dope in his dorm room at Georgia. I guess he has already lost 8 points on his IQ. So much for that lucrative pro career he was counting on.
Agent,
DECEMBER 29, 2017 AT 3:32 PM
Agent says:
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You need the insult Progressive. Go play golf in the snow and freezing temperatures since you bragged about playing all winter.
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Agent says:
POORLY-RATED. LIKE OR DISLIKE:
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
You can also use Glue Stick instead of Chap Stick troll.
Reply
1
UW, I know the industry far better than you do. Predictive Modeling has so many holes, it is a joke. Underwriters (not you) used to use much easier and better techniques to underwrite risk. This new underwriting is not good and does not bode well for the future. Why do you still have a job? The robots will be doing it soon.
MARCH 8, 2018 AT 12:42 PM
Agent says:
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Confused, I see that you and your comrade have been puffing a little too much weed and you are Scromiting all over this site.
MARCH 12, 2018 AT 4:31 PM
Agent says:
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Boring, boring, boring Planet. Your act is getting very old. Take a hike. No one wants to read your total rubbish.
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APRIL 4, 2018 AT 5:37 PM
Agent says:
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What does dimish mean? Are you high again?
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• APRIL 5, 2018 AT 3:00 PM
Agent says:
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Way to make light of this Dear. Shows you don’t have a clue what is going on.
Reply
You were saying something about name calling and insults?
the only time it’s ok to be a hypocrite in life is when you’re a parent dealing with your kids. Then hypocrite away. Otherwise, hypocrisy is abhorrent. Practice what you preach.
“It would also reduce barriers for legal marijuana businesses to get access to banking.”
In addition to allowing robust testing of marijuana’s risks and benefits, and not just limited testing on a single low-potency strain, this is one major reason why marijuana needs to be removed from being listed as a Schedule One drug.
I agree that this should be the next step in the process, but do you think this will aid in reducing the black market for cannabis (and all the crime involved) or only worsen it?
With the amount of federal taxing on top of the state taxes cannabis growers already face, I feel this will force small, honest farms to either shut down or sell since the cost of complying with the law may exceed overall profits. Small farmers should be rewarded for adhering to the law, not be run out of business.
To me, this seems like it will only feed the black market and may cause more issues. A lot of these farms have been operating illegally, resorting to violence to ensure it stays that way, since cannabis was outlawed and will continue to do so now to evade the extra taxes/fees as well.
Well, there will always be a black market for marijuana no matter what laws change. If that is an increase or decrease in the market’s current levels, it’s tough to gauge on such limited data.
If we solely look at places like Murder Mountain, there’s no doubt increased regulations that drive up legal prices will cause the black market to continue to be a viable solution for low-cost marijuana.
If we look at places that didn’t have decades worth of illegal grow operations, it may be easier to break into the legal market since everyone is on the same playing field (you can grow 3 plants or 30 plants and the percentage of tax you pay to sell it legally is static).
If we look at people who want to ensure they’re getting a quality product not treated with pesticides or similar types of chemicals, I think those people would be happy to spend more money to buy their product legally.
To answer your question honestly — I don’t know. I realize the black market won’t go away, but I also think places that abide by the laws can still make a profit doing things on the up-and-up.
True, it is likely wishful thinking to assume the black market would take a U-turn after legalizing cannabis, even federally. Some places will be easier than others and can hopefully stabilize the industry, relatively speaking, as a legal/profitable market. Regardless, it will take time and there will most likely be unforeseen consequences no matter which way the cookie crumbles.
Thank you for your response, I appreciate your views on the matter.
My pleasure HQ. I may not always agree with you, but if you source your data when asked, refrain from personal attacks, don’t put words in my mouth nor make straw man arguments, I’ll be happy to keep discussing and debating.
I think both your assessments are accurate. However I think it would be expected that the black market would decrease significantly once there is full legalization. Using Oregon as an example, and how it operates it’s marijuana laws now, granted it is in a disaster currently, businesses are failing, it cannot export it’s product, but it is by far the cheapest option in the country because of the excess in competition. Once the barriers are removed the price will regulate and drop to be more consistent with that of the black market. the price may always be slightly higher, but convenience will outweigh the price difference at that point.
Although not the same product I would think that there would be a relative comparison on black market sale of Marijuana and the black market sale of Liquor. Just look at the cots involved with black market liquor during prohibition and one would think that you would have your answer. Typically poor quality liquor at high prices under prohibition and during the years after although fairly high relative taxes still cheaper and higher quality.
Sure there is still some black market but can you point me to the last time anyone you know had personally consume white lightning. No one I know of would even drink the stuff.
You almost surely nailed the correct variable: federal taxation. I have never understood the mantra, “Legalize and tax the **** out of it.” Look what happened to Eric Garner for selling cigarettes, which are heavily taxed by the feds. Bootlegging has experienced a comeback, too, thanks to absurdly high tax rates.
Legalize it and drop the federal tax altogether or at least to a reasonable level.
Wondering how this plays into traveling to Colorado and bringing it back to say Wisconsin where it is not legal.
The black market in prohibition states will definitely see an increase, exactly from these types of actions, IMO.
Not really answering my question. I do realize it was a bit vague. So, a little more specific.
Lets say I drive to Colorado and buy for personal / medical use in a state that does not allow for. I end up getting pulled over in a state that it is not legal for a tail light / speeding what ever.
Cop finds what I am transporting and does what? “.
You will get arrested for possession of an illegal substance based on the laws in the state in which you’re pulled over. If you’re in a state that legalized it but are transporting illegally (say it’s in your unlocked glove box or trunk), you’d get fined. It’s the same as if you transported fireworks from a legal state to one where it’s illegal. The laws of the state you’re in is what’s applied. Not saying you are, but ignorance of the law in whichever state you’re in is not an excuse.
Ignorance does not equal innocence.
Agreed – but if you bought something legally in one state (marijuana, fireworks, certain types of alcohol) and bring it to a state where it’s illegal, and you’re caught with it in the illegal state – you’re guilty of being in possession of an illegal item.
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
If the majority of the black market stays intact after the full legalization of weed, I’m almost certain the farmers who are already not paying state taxes will not start paying more taxes. Do you think the government, or even the IRS, would step in then?
Sounds ridiculous, but maybe tax evasion could be the way to bring these people to justice, even if justice is only a few years in prison and a small fine.
As I recall that is what they got Al Capone on.
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
You can take the “IJ” out of marijuana… by calling it pot, but you can’t take the marijuana legalization favoring articles out of the “IJ”.
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
No one is forcing you to read the articles. You choose to come out here.
It’s sad that the cowards that moderate these sections don’t see any problem with Agent or Craig or their ilk. Unfortunately it speaks to their own political bias, but while these types may currently be the majority they are aging quickly and will soon be forgotten.
The difference between right and wrong will never be forgotten.
You might want to check your Ark of History there, lefty. Over in Europe, they are going through the same rejection of liberal economic idiocy and PC babble that is being rejected here. Wise people predict a violent revolution in France. France!
Talk to some young people in the USA. A majority can’t stand identity politics, the only thing holding Democrats together at this point.
Surprise, your mention of “rejection of liberal blah blah blah” leaves out the rise of white nationalism. You once again ignore common sense so let’s go to the heart of it: You are a sad old lonely man.
@jerry; what is wrong with posting conservative opinions on a private, not public, comment board that regulates speech to the extent it is not offensive, etc.? (See terms of use at bottom of the page)
You were probably taught by your teachers that free speech actually means free speech for liberals and censorship of conservatives.
Please elaborate on how Conservatives broke board rules by making conservative comments.
Did you say “hateful”? HA HA HA HA.
FFA, you are right. We know right from wrong and people like Jerry and Planet don’t. I point them to Ecclesiastes 10:2.
I wish you well up there on the frozen tundra of Wisconsin. Bet you are burning a bit of firewood this winter, much to the disdain of the New Green deal Dems.
If you preach the bible and point people in its direction, you should follow it closer then you seem to think. You are passing judgment on others when the bible says you should not. Those that use your passage that about the wise man heart on the right does not correlate to the political spectrum.
Disagreeing with people is healthy in a society, but using a passage from your own religion to justify your political affiliation is an odious method, Mike.
Please do not use those things to further a illegitimate point you are trying to make. Please debate like an adult on this professional site.
Helpingout, they’re trolls. You can’t expect them to make an actual rational argument or listen to reason. They’re trying to spout their biased agenda and will insult and deny anyone who points out their inconsistencies, straw man tactics, and outright lies. I’ve taken to just insulting them, and the cowardly Insurance Journal moderators who leave their trash on this board. You do you, though! It’s an insurance magazine, this person isn’t seriously pointing to the bible after the garbage he’s spouted today alone on this board.
People without ideas resort to Ad Hominem attacks? “Sad, old, lonely man.”
You are pathetic, a third grade name caller who couldn’t come up with a decent liberal idea if your life depended on it. Because there ain’t one.
“White Nationalism!” Oh, the Boogey Man! Tell me the percentage of the country made up with white nationalists, and please cite a respected source.
Look in the mirror: Americans are rejecting your nonsense.
Craig – you’re not helping yourself here trying to prove you aren’t a troll
@Jerry; please identify how Conservative opinions violate board rules. The IJ staff will be amused to see how you interpret their rules.
Been burning a bunch thats for sure. With the lay of the land up here, this 12″ + we got yesterday makes it difficult to get to the stack.Took me three hours to plow a path out of the driveway last night. My little John Deere once again got the job done. Nothing runs like a deere,
Havent read much about the new green deal, but the source of it tells me not to bother. She isn’t making many friends thats for sure.
That Dem / Muslim from Minn spewing that anti Jew crap, if she was a republican she would be gone already. Talk about a 2x standard. If it was an old white guy, he would be gone by now.
Off topic, did you catch the new Football League last week end? I did miss it, but reviews in the news were positive. Gonna make sure I catch it this week end.
Great, Agent – now follow up that Old Testament with a little of your New Testament – The Gospel of Supply Side Jesus. Too bad you didn’t meet Tammy Faye, first.
Rosenblatt criticizes me but not the spew of hate coming out of Jerry.
Liberal Values!
I didn’t realize I was an IJ monitor. What part of Jerry’s comment would you like me to criticize? Please quote him verbatim.
Let’s see if I can match Jerry’s shots: “cowards” “sad, lonely old man” “cowardly Insurance Journal monitors” “outright lies” “aging quickly and will soon be forgotten” “I’ve taken to just insulting them” . . . and that’s only in the comments on this one article!
Jerry – We respectfully request that all commenters refrain from insults towards one another, avoid profanities and show respect for others at all times. If you or anyone else can’t make your point without insulting another person’s intelligence, morals, ethnicity, character or other trait, then please don’t post it. Those who engage in such behaviors ruin the forum experience for the majority who follow the rules of civil discourse.
Is that better, Craig?
You know what Craig – ignore my last post. Here’s a comment directed to Jerry (and you, among others)
We respectfully request that all commenters refrain from insults towards one another, avoid profanities and show respect for others at all times. If you or anyone else can’t make your point without insulting another person’s intelligence, morals, ethnicity, character or other trait, then please don’t post it. Those who engage in such behaviors ruin the forum experience for the majority who follow the rules of civil discourse.
Does that include you calling me a liar without proof?
Thanks, Jerry. You Da Man! How many years will we have to wait until we see a single insightful comment from any of Jerry’s postings?
Vegas odds for over and under is 3 years and 2 months . . .
I don’t call people liars or hypocrites without proof. The last time I caught you lying was when you claimed you ONLY insult people if they insult you first. You claimed you NEVER insult someone first, yet in that same discussion, you insulted me when I had not insulted you.
Craig, 3 million cases of scromiting have been treated so far. What a waste of our medical system dollars.
By the way, Elijah Holyfield, son of Evander Holyfield just got caught smoking dope in his dorm room at Georgia. I guess he has already lost 8 points on his IQ. So much for that lucrative pro career he was counting on.
Some things never change…
Agent,
DECEMBER 29, 2017 AT 3:32 PM
Agent says:
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You need the insult Progressive. Go play golf in the snow and freezing temperatures since you bragged about playing all winter.
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Agent says:
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
You can also use Glue Stick instead of Chap Stick troll.
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1
UW, I know the industry far better than you do. Predictive Modeling has so many holes, it is a joke. Underwriters (not you) used to use much easier and better techniques to underwrite risk. This new underwriting is not good and does not bode well for the future. Why do you still have a job? The robots will be doing it soon.
MARCH 8, 2018 AT 12:42 PM
Agent says:
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Confused, I see that you and your comrade have been puffing a little too much weed and you are Scromiting all over this site.
MARCH 12, 2018 AT 4:31 PM
Agent says:
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Boring, boring, boring Planet. Your act is getting very old. Take a hike. No one wants to read your total rubbish.
Reply
APRIL 4, 2018 AT 5:37 PM
Agent says:
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What does dimish mean? Are you high again?
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• APRIL 5, 2018 AT 3:00 PM
Agent says:
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Way to make light of this Dear. Shows you don’t have a clue what is going on.
Reply
You were saying something about name calling and insults?
that’s actually pretty impressive…
the only time it’s ok to be a hypocrite in life is when you’re a parent dealing with your kids. Then hypocrite away. Otherwise, hypocrisy is abhorrent. Practice what you preach.