Gee, I can’t figure this one out. Legal sales went DOWN in California after pot was legalized for recreational use. I have been told many times the black market for pot would disappear once recreational pot was legal. Can any Pot Fan explain?
From the article:
“California’s market was $3 billion in 2017, when it was a loosely regulated medical state. When legal adult use began on January 2018 and stores were required to be licensed, legal sales fell to $2.5 billion.
The state saw some growth in 2019, with sales reaching $2.96 billion, the report shows.”
Prove that legal sales went down. Show some numbers, because you can’t.
We’ve been over this. The black market in California primarily consists of sending marijuana to states where it is still illegal. Due to the heavy regulations there is a lot of marijuana that cannot be sent through the regulation process to legal dispensaries that is ending up in other states. If you make it legal across the board, then there is your disappearing black market. Prohibition was an easy guide to this, it’s not difficult to figure out, you just don’t want to figure it out because you want to whine about marijuana being legal. Well tough, the voters have made their choice, stop crying about it snowflake.
I already asked you to help me out. I asked you to explain how legal sales went down if it wasn’t because of more black market sales. If you can’t, that’s okay. I understand. Because there is NO other answer.
My post actually did explain it. The over-regulation required by California. There are only so many testing facilities in the state and they cannot handle the massive amount of product trying to go through those facilities. Because of that, they have set limits on the amount they are willing to accept from each grower. This is controlling the amount of product that is allowed to get to retail locations.
Making it legal on a wider level also changed the rules for selling it, and so growers who were previously able to get out X amount are now getting Y amount out for sale, where Y amount is less. Simple math.
This also leads to your black market problem, because if a grower can only sell half of their product legally within the state, they are sending the rest out of state to places where it is still illegal but they can make a profit. It’s really quite easy. Lower the regulation of flower, legalize federally. Black market disappears, profits increase, everybody wins except sad Craig who gets to pout while adults enjoy marijuana.
January 16, 2020 at 6:27 pm
Jon says:
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Do you actually insure any cannabis dispensaries? Have you even spoken to any of these business owners? Or are you just drawing wild conclusions from headlines and pretending they’re fact because they support your anti-marijuana narrative? You could stand to do some research on this like many subjects.
January 17, 2020 at 1:43 pm
craig cornell says:
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As I have stated before, my information comes from the Democrats in Sacramento like Governor Gavin Newsome. They report that the black market has grown significantly since pot for fun was made legal.
But hey, I understand. You love pot and you don’t want any bad news about pot, no matter how true it is.
January 16, 2020 at 7:22 pm
PolarBeaRepeal says:
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Unfortunately, due to “legal” reasons, the black market does not publish its revenue, expenses, profits, and balance sheets. :)
So there is no proof that legal sales were driven down by the black market, is what you’re saying. Which is what I said. Thanks for agreeing, bud! My point stands. The black market is due to federal illegality and the regulations required to sell cannabis in this state. Pretty easy, actually, if you apply critical thinking, logic and some industry knowledge to the situation. I doubt either of you have ever even been to a dispensary let alone dealt with the business owners, you clearly have a lot to learn.
January 16, 2020 at 8:36 pm
PolarBeaRepeal says:
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So, using your logic, if a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around, it doesn’t make any sound… OK, then!
January 16, 2020 at 8:43 pm
PolarBeaRepeal says:
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The ‘proof’ is not through numbers, but through logic.
If demand for an addictive drug is assumed to be somewhat constant, or perhaps increasing due to people moving into a state, the decrease of sales of the drug in one category should logically be assumed to be offset by an increase in a very similar magnitude in another supply source.
The only logical explanation for a decrease in overall demand for an addictive drug is loss of the population of users, whether through exodus from the state, or through deaths.
January 17, 2020 at 10:47 am
Jon says:
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That’s your problem, Polar. I provided you the exact reason the numbers went down, but you’d prefer wild theories instead of fact. As stated, you have not spoken to any of these business owners. You do not insure any cannabis businesses. My agency does, I have worked with and talked with these people.
Calling your answer “The only logical explanation” is false, because as stated, you’re completely ignoring the limits created by regulation in this state. You’re once again off in the woods with a tin foil hat while a clear answer is staring you in the face, you’ve just got your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears. No surprise.
Especially since marijuana is not an addictive drug, as you like to keep spreading that lie too. Silly boomers, love to talk, can’t stand to listen.
January 17, 2020 at 1:40 pm
Jon says:
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Also
Hey Polar, while you’re posting here, why don’t you respond to the hypocrisy of claiming I do nothing but insult and derail while you had four insulting posts on the other article? Or what about your false YouGov poll from “january” want to respond to that? OR rob’s continued explanations and call for you to stop your lie about Bots downvoting you? Or just more cowardice?
You seem like a rat jumping ship every time someone points out your hypocrisy, your generation really hates being held accountable for anything huh? Bunch of snowflakes who can’t admit to being wrong.
January 17, 2020 at 9:05 am
CC says:
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Craig, the article answers your question……
“The state’s cannabis industry includes more than 20 license types and four regulatory agencies, while a 15% excise tax and 9.25% cultivation tax help keep prices high and funnel people into the illicit market.”
No matter how much you try to say this, it doesn’t make it true Craig. As stated numerous NUMEROUS times (though you seem to be ignoring things you don’t want to read these days) the black market exists right now due to two factors. The over-regulation in California, and the lack of legality in other states. If you legalize nationwide, you will have zero black market. Just like there is not an alcohol black market since prohibition ended. Your claims are false. Try to keep up and critically analyze the situation. We have historical context to guide us, prohibition, it’s not hard.
Ah, yes. No one will EVER grow pot in the hills once it is legal everywhere. The Mexican cartels will just close up shop. People will never be caught growing pot in their homes or garages EVER AGAIN!
(Apparently, consumption of THC makes your mind susceptible to lots of nonsense.)
January 21, 2020 at 2:51 pm
CL PM says:
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Jon – I disagree the black market for pot will disappear if it is legalized nationwide. There are black markets for many legal products today – alcohol, cigarettes, electronics, jewelry, leather goods, sports betting, etc. Why would pot be any different? People will always try to get around regulations and taxes if they can find a way.
January 21, 2020 at 3:59 pm
Jon says:
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Your straw-man argument fails here, Craig. Do we not have home beer brewers? Do we not have hobbyists that make their own wine? If it’s legal, growing a plant in your garage won’t be illegal, duh. Apparently the lack of THC makes you avoid common sense logic, because you just got out-thunk by a pothead.
And CL, while I agree that there may be a small black market, sure, the black market for those products is far smaller in areas where you can afford them without heavy taxation. Cigarette black markets exist in places where the tax has pushed out the user base. Alcohol black markets may exist somewhat for hobbyist moonshine makers, but nowhere NEAR the level of pre-prohibition levels. People will always try and get around regulations, sure, but not on the level they are currently.
January 21, 2020 at 6:03 pm
Craig Cornell says:
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Jon is so funny. Truly.
The size of any black market is based on the cost savings versus the taxed and regulated market, as well as the ease of doing business outside of the regulated market.
There is a massive cash market for lots of goods and services. Many people will give you a discount if you pay cash, in order to avoid taxes. That is the definition of a MASSIVE black market.
Just like pot is easier to grow at a much greater cost-savings than beer is to brew in any quantity that would make it cheaper than store-bought beer.
Too funny, Jon.
January 21, 2020 at 6:54 pm
Jon says:
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So by your logic, the gas station that charges less for cash customers than credit card customers is a black market? LOL your logic doesn’t follow there bud nice try though. Again, why would it be illegal to grow marijuana yourself if it was legalized? It’s a plant. In states where it’s legal now like ours it’s legal to grow, why would it be made federally legal to purchase but not to grow? It’s not like alcohol where you have to go through a specific process, you can put some seeds out and likely have something usable.
It’s asinine to think it would be legalized but JUST to purchase when it’s literally a plant anyone can grow, and also legal to grow in the states where it’s legal right now. If you make it legal everywhere, those private grows become more about personal use than profiting by selling to other states. So again, you just made my point for me. Thanks, boomer.
January 17, 2020 at 3:16 pm
Well... says:
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Let me help Craig. It tells you what the issue is. You just have to keep reading past the part that you liked…
“it became clear that California was overtaxed and overregulated”
And so did the black market take up all the sales or not? We all know the true answer to that one.
And so what I said is true: the promise that the black market would disappear with legalization was a lie, just like opponents of legal pot said it was.
Just like all the other promises about keeping it away from kids, controlling the potency (since the black market would be gone), guaranteeing pot that was pesticide and chemical free (black market again). . . . . .
And now we learn THC is more dangerous than anyone told us as well.
All in all, legalization worked out just like the Pot Fans said it would.
You’re ignoring evidence in order to craft a false narrative on this board too then?
You’re also spreading that misinformation again, it really is your favorite.
We learned no such information. The articles are available to everyone, wonder why you’re the only one drawing these insane incorrect conclusions? Almost like you have a prior bias affecting your critical thinking ability. Crazy, right?
I doubt the black market in Illinois is going to disappear anytime soon. The state saw a peaceful and orderly roll-out of recreational sales on January 1, but flower has been unavailable at most locations, even for medical patients, after the first days due to high demand. Many dispensaries are selling cartridges, edibles and topicals only. Between lack of supply and the taxes, the unregulated dealers aren’t losing sleep.
That’s the point I’ve been trying to make that Craig and Polar try to pretend isn’t there. The over-regulation required by these dispensaries is creating a shortage, because they only have the ability to regulate and test so much of the product. And I imagine it’s a little harder for home growers in Illinois versus California here. If it were to become fully legal and the regulations relaxed on testing, the black market would have no choice but to move on.
Actually, in Illinois, the only regulation aspect that’s causing the shortage is the one that says the product has to be grown in Illinois to be sold in Illinois. There truly seems to be a shortage of grown product that’s ready to sell. The attitude among people seems to be supportive of the taxes (except in Cook County, maybe, where they’re *higher* at more than 40%). Lots of people in Illinois are hopeful this will be a positive step toward fixing the state’s budget woes. Not that the extra tax revenue will completely offset what the fat cats here of both parties have been doing for decades to the state….
That makes a lot of sense, Curious. Illinois doesn’t have access to a year-long moderate climate like California, so it makes sense that there would be difficulty in procuring enough product to distribute to meet demand. Once again, though Craig doesn’t like to admit it, the over-regulation is an issue. If half of the product from California that can’t be tested and regulated here were able to be sent to Illinois for testing, we would have no shortage problem and the black market would whither that much more.
Gee, I can’t figure this one out. Legal sales went DOWN in California after pot was legalized for recreational use. I have been told many times the black market for pot would disappear once recreational pot was legal. Can any Pot Fan explain?
From the article:
“California’s market was $3 billion in 2017, when it was a loosely regulated medical state. When legal adult use began on January 2018 and stores were required to be licensed, legal sales fell to $2.5 billion.
The state saw some growth in 2019, with sales reaching $2.96 billion, the report shows.”
Prove that legal sales went down. Show some numbers, because you can’t.
We’ve been over this. The black market in California primarily consists of sending marijuana to states where it is still illegal. Due to the heavy regulations there is a lot of marijuana that cannot be sent through the regulation process to legal dispensaries that is ending up in other states. If you make it legal across the board, then there is your disappearing black market. Prohibition was an easy guide to this, it’s not difficult to figure out, you just don’t want to figure it out because you want to whine about marijuana being legal. Well tough, the voters have made their choice, stop crying about it snowflake.
Sorry, my wording went down. Legal sales went down because of the black market* was what I wanted you to prove.
I already asked you to help me out. I asked you to explain how legal sales went down if it wasn’t because of more black market sales. If you can’t, that’s okay. I understand. Because there is NO other answer.
My post actually did explain it. The over-regulation required by California. There are only so many testing facilities in the state and they cannot handle the massive amount of product trying to go through those facilities. Because of that, they have set limits on the amount they are willing to accept from each grower. This is controlling the amount of product that is allowed to get to retail locations.
Making it legal on a wider level also changed the rules for selling it, and so growers who were previously able to get out X amount are now getting Y amount out for sale, where Y amount is less. Simple math.
This also leads to your black market problem, because if a grower can only sell half of their product legally within the state, they are sending the rest out of state to places where it is still illegal but they can make a profit. It’s really quite easy. Lower the regulation of flower, legalize federally. Black market disappears, profits increase, everybody wins except sad Craig who gets to pout while adults enjoy marijuana.
Do you actually insure any cannabis dispensaries? Have you even spoken to any of these business owners? Or are you just drawing wild conclusions from headlines and pretending they’re fact because they support your anti-marijuana narrative? You could stand to do some research on this like many subjects.
As I have stated before, my information comes from the Democrats in Sacramento like Governor Gavin Newsome. They report that the black market has grown significantly since pot for fun was made legal.
But hey, I understand. You love pot and you don’t want any bad news about pot, no matter how true it is.
Unfortunately, due to “legal” reasons, the black market does not publish its revenue, expenses, profits, and balance sheets. :)
So there is no proof that legal sales were driven down by the black market, is what you’re saying. Which is what I said. Thanks for agreeing, bud! My point stands. The black market is due to federal illegality and the regulations required to sell cannabis in this state. Pretty easy, actually, if you apply critical thinking, logic and some industry knowledge to the situation. I doubt either of you have ever even been to a dispensary let alone dealt with the business owners, you clearly have a lot to learn.
So, using your logic, if a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around, it doesn’t make any sound… OK, then!
The ‘proof’ is not through numbers, but through logic.
If demand for an addictive drug is assumed to be somewhat constant, or perhaps increasing due to people moving into a state, the decrease of sales of the drug in one category should logically be assumed to be offset by an increase in a very similar magnitude in another supply source.
The only logical explanation for a decrease in overall demand for an addictive drug is loss of the population of users, whether through exodus from the state, or through deaths.
That’s your problem, Polar. I provided you the exact reason the numbers went down, but you’d prefer wild theories instead of fact. As stated, you have not spoken to any of these business owners. You do not insure any cannabis businesses. My agency does, I have worked with and talked with these people.
Calling your answer “The only logical explanation” is false, because as stated, you’re completely ignoring the limits created by regulation in this state. You’re once again off in the woods with a tin foil hat while a clear answer is staring you in the face, you’ve just got your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears. No surprise.
Especially since marijuana is not an addictive drug, as you like to keep spreading that lie too. Silly boomers, love to talk, can’t stand to listen.
Also
Hey Polar, while you’re posting here, why don’t you respond to the hypocrisy of claiming I do nothing but insult and derail while you had four insulting posts on the other article? Or what about your false YouGov poll from “january” want to respond to that? OR rob’s continued explanations and call for you to stop your lie about Bots downvoting you? Or just more cowardice?
You seem like a rat jumping ship every time someone points out your hypocrisy, your generation really hates being held accountable for anything huh? Bunch of snowflakes who can’t admit to being wrong.
Craig, the article answers your question……
“The state’s cannabis industry includes more than 20 license types and four regulatory agencies, while a 15% excise tax and 9.25% cultivation tax help keep prices high and funnel people into the illicit market.”
Exactly. The Black Market is growing, not shrinking. But hey, at least the promises of the Pot Fans for legalization have been consistent. All false.
No matter how much you try to say this, it doesn’t make it true Craig. As stated numerous NUMEROUS times (though you seem to be ignoring things you don’t want to read these days) the black market exists right now due to two factors. The over-regulation in California, and the lack of legality in other states. If you legalize nationwide, you will have zero black market. Just like there is not an alcohol black market since prohibition ended. Your claims are false. Try to keep up and critically analyze the situation. We have historical context to guide us, prohibition, it’s not hard.
Ah, yes. No one will EVER grow pot in the hills once it is legal everywhere. The Mexican cartels will just close up shop. People will never be caught growing pot in their homes or garages EVER AGAIN!
(Apparently, consumption of THC makes your mind susceptible to lots of nonsense.)
Jon – I disagree the black market for pot will disappear if it is legalized nationwide. There are black markets for many legal products today – alcohol, cigarettes, electronics, jewelry, leather goods, sports betting, etc. Why would pot be any different? People will always try to get around regulations and taxes if they can find a way.
Your straw-man argument fails here, Craig. Do we not have home beer brewers? Do we not have hobbyists that make their own wine? If it’s legal, growing a plant in your garage won’t be illegal, duh. Apparently the lack of THC makes you avoid common sense logic, because you just got out-thunk by a pothead.
And CL, while I agree that there may be a small black market, sure, the black market for those products is far smaller in areas where you can afford them without heavy taxation. Cigarette black markets exist in places where the tax has pushed out the user base. Alcohol black markets may exist somewhat for hobbyist moonshine makers, but nowhere NEAR the level of pre-prohibition levels. People will always try and get around regulations, sure, but not on the level they are currently.
Jon is so funny. Truly.
The size of any black market is based on the cost savings versus the taxed and regulated market, as well as the ease of doing business outside of the regulated market.
There is a massive cash market for lots of goods and services. Many people will give you a discount if you pay cash, in order to avoid taxes. That is the definition of a MASSIVE black market.
Just like pot is easier to grow at a much greater cost-savings than beer is to brew in any quantity that would make it cheaper than store-bought beer.
Too funny, Jon.
So by your logic, the gas station that charges less for cash customers than credit card customers is a black market? LOL your logic doesn’t follow there bud nice try though. Again, why would it be illegal to grow marijuana yourself if it was legalized? It’s a plant. In states where it’s legal now like ours it’s legal to grow, why would it be made federally legal to purchase but not to grow? It’s not like alcohol where you have to go through a specific process, you can put some seeds out and likely have something usable.
It’s asinine to think it would be legalized but JUST to purchase when it’s literally a plant anyone can grow, and also legal to grow in the states where it’s legal right now. If you make it legal everywhere, those private grows become more about personal use than profiting by selling to other states. So again, you just made my point for me. Thanks, boomer.
Let me help Craig. It tells you what the issue is. You just have to keep reading past the part that you liked…
“it became clear that California was overtaxed and overregulated”
And so did the black market take up all the sales or not? We all know the true answer to that one.
And so what I said is true: the promise that the black market would disappear with legalization was a lie, just like opponents of legal pot said it was.
Just like all the other promises about keeping it away from kids, controlling the potency (since the black market would be gone), guaranteeing pot that was pesticide and chemical free (black market again). . . . . .
And now we learn THC is more dangerous than anyone told us as well.
All in all, legalization worked out just like the Pot Fans said it would.
You’re ignoring evidence in order to craft a false narrative on this board too then?
You’re also spreading that misinformation again, it really is your favorite.
We learned no such information. The articles are available to everyone, wonder why you’re the only one drawing these insane incorrect conclusions? Almost like you have a prior bias affecting your critical thinking ability. Crazy, right?
My grandfather was an awesome guy who ran a moonshine still during Prohibition. I’m so proud of him.
I doubt the black market in Illinois is going to disappear anytime soon. The state saw a peaceful and orderly roll-out of recreational sales on January 1, but flower has been unavailable at most locations, even for medical patients, after the first days due to high demand. Many dispensaries are selling cartridges, edibles and topicals only. Between lack of supply and the taxes, the unregulated dealers aren’t losing sleep.
That’s the point I’ve been trying to make that Craig and Polar try to pretend isn’t there. The over-regulation required by these dispensaries is creating a shortage, because they only have the ability to regulate and test so much of the product. And I imagine it’s a little harder for home growers in Illinois versus California here. If it were to become fully legal and the regulations relaxed on testing, the black market would have no choice but to move on.
A Lefty whining about “over-regulation”!!!! (But only for pot. All other regulations are good.)
And so the State should “relax” on testing. At what point is legalized pot for fun without any purpose at all? When they relax testing.
Actually, in Illinois, the only regulation aspect that’s causing the shortage is the one that says the product has to be grown in Illinois to be sold in Illinois. There truly seems to be a shortage of grown product that’s ready to sell. The attitude among people seems to be supportive of the taxes (except in Cook County, maybe, where they’re *higher* at more than 40%). Lots of people in Illinois are hopeful this will be a positive step toward fixing the state’s budget woes. Not that the extra tax revenue will completely offset what the fat cats here of both parties have been doing for decades to the state….
That makes a lot of sense, Curious. Illinois doesn’t have access to a year-long moderate climate like California, so it makes sense that there would be difficulty in procuring enough product to distribute to meet demand. Once again, though Craig doesn’t like to admit it, the over-regulation is an issue. If half of the product from California that can’t be tested and regulated here were able to be sent to Illinois for testing, we would have no shortage problem and the black market would whither that much more.