What you cant be an American and still have your own religious belifes? The headscarf would not make that company lose business. They have a long history of discrimination hopefully they get what they deserve and no prudent person would expect them to apply at Hooters but a retail outlet come on.
I am sick and tired of immingrants who WANT to live here, but REFUSE to learn to speak the language and adopt our native culture. She made the decision to be a Muslim and wear the hijab. To AMERICANS, that’s offensive. Nobody should have to put up with their nonsense. It it’s so important to them, let them go back to whatever 3rd world country they left. WE SHOULD NOT BE COMPROMISING AMERICAN CULTURE FOR ANYONE.
I was gonna take a stab at the “back pay” mentioned among the lawsuit’s objectives (was the young lady even hired?), but your comment, Just Me, needs some attention.
Nothing has happened to coming to America and being American. In fact, part of “being American” means exercising one’s inherent right to religious freedom and expression–heck, even the KKK gets that consideration when they decide they want to hold a rally somewhere!
…and where in the story is it mentioned or indicated that the teen is not a citizen of the United States by birth or otherwise?
Perhaps you should consider your thoughts a bit more before pounding the keyboard with them for all to see…?
What is American Culture? – sit your obese butt on the couch and watch realty shows? We are all descended from immigrants. Maybe bagpipes and Danny Boy was offense at one time.
Amy, please see my response to Just Me; apparently a lot of people think that because a person doesn’t share the same religious belief that they do automatically means they’re heathens who should “go back to whatever 3rd world country they left.”
Would you feel the same about an Irish Catholic, a Southern Baptist, or even an aethiest?
Commentary such as was put in some of the posts is unworthy of further discussion. We cannot allow discrimination or we step back 250 years to the time before this country was founded. Life may have been simpler but it certainly was NOT better.
What does bother me though is the valuation that these offenses seem to draw. Was this lady truly injured? Was she unable to get another job because of this decision? I doubt that she stayed awake even one night worrying about it but there’s a smart lawyer or two who did.
A&F, certainly, needs to get their heads out of the sand and realize they cannot administer employments this way…but at $50 million per EEOC lawsuit, is this just an attempt to run them out of business?? ..and who could be next??
My remarks have nothing to do with religion. I am very tolerant of others religious beliefs, but I don’t care to see them parading around in their native costumes. They make no effort to ASSIMILATE and rub their “beliefs”, including their poor hygiene and native garb in our faces. You make think that’s fine, but I dislike having my country invaded by those who have no intention of becoming AMERICAN. We’re fast becoming a virtual ethinic bazaar. You don’t see any of that with the Irish, Italians, Polish, Hungarians, and Russians. They emmigrated here to become AMERICAN and I don’t hear anybody on the phone saying “press one for Hungarian”. If wearing the hijab is so important, there’s a companion price for that decision when you’re in this country.
Curious to see the forces at work behind this suit…oh wait, it is the Council on American-Islamic Relations!
There are a couple of terms which have come about… “stealth Jihad”, “creeping Sharia”, and “Sharia inch-by-inch”
It is important to remember that religion itself is an idea and not a person and thus does not possess ‘human rights’. Religion (any religion) does not have a right not to be offended. While we accept and allow any religion to be practiced and in fact prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion, the right to criticize religion or “blaspheme” (for lack of a better word) must always be respected.
The first amendment must never be diluted in favor of barring criticism of religion — even if under the banner of political correctness, preventing the inciting of violence etc.
“I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write” –Voltaire
Why would someone so devote to their beliefs, be insulted about not being allowed to wear their head coverings at work, but want to work in a place where the models walk around with very little or inappropriate clothing?
PU your comment leads one to wonder if a legitimate grievance was voiced or if perhaps a series of actions were taken in hopes of a certain outcome with which to bring action on?
I do not think this issue is at heart about money. Money would be the catalyst in our capitalist society– a large judgement, or threat of one, in a high-profile case could be enough to affect the future behavior of liability-shy coporations. But I think the end goal is in the changed behavior itself and not in the money which is a means to an end.
I have attended seminars taught by professors who are Muslim religion instructors at universities. Every one stated that the clothing worn by the women are not required by the Koran but are cultural norms. Look at the different styles worn by Muslims worn in different areas of the globe.
Therefore I hope that the store fights and wins this one as wearing the hijab is not a religious requirement.
Creeping Sharia…the hijab is one expression/requirement for many Muslim woman. Islam is a political system wrapped in a religion. It is antithetical to Western European civilization and it’s values, philosophies, traditions, religions, laws, etc. There are deeper issues here. CAIR is using our legal system against us. Don’t be hobbits. Check out http://www.actforamerica.com
typical of folks like Big Mike from Cali, “never mind” when they are confronted with opinions that they don’t share or want to hear. That’s why this country is going in the toilet to begin with! Just turn your back, say never mind and let bastards take over! This is America, here she can go to court, in her “homeland” she’d probably already be in jail. A&F has a right, yes right, to ASK all employees to dress a certain way, if you don’t like it, go apply at pizza hut or burger king or someother teen type employer, stop with the nonsense.
Go to any major American city and watch the St. Patrick’s Day Parade, Italian Fests, etc. Never once have I seen someone say these folks are un-American, or refusing to assimilate. Why are Muslims any different?
Would you say the same if it was a Jewish man/teen who was not allowed to wear a yarmulke? How about a Sikh with a turban? Where is the line?
I’m afraid that it’s folks like you who just abide allowing folks living in accordance to a custom that give us such a negative reputation in the world. Isn’t America great because it is a beacon of freedom and tolerance? That I can be judged based on my whole person, not just what I wear on my head or what color my skin is or which day I pray?
If A&F thinks a hajib is inappropriate, shouldn’t a rosary be equally inappropriate?
As for your disgustingly racist remarks about hygiene, I can only shake my head in pity for your small mindedness.
If an employee is stocking shelves or counting inventory, the “look” would be immaterial. If an employee is out front selling, let the “look” demonstrate it’s own importance by putting ALL employees on a nominal draw plus COMMISSION. It might suprise us how important the “look” is to the clientele. Or not. Either way, the employee shares the impact of dressing contrary to best marketing practices as identified by management.
Okay, Spins22, my comment was in exasperation at Amy, because it appeared that she contradicted herself in her own comment responding to mine. But, as it stands, I didn’t feel the need to engage in an extended discussion with her, nor do I with you.
Thank God this is a free country and society where we can openly agree or disagree without fear of reprisal from those “who don’t share” the same opinions…
I find it offensive that a TEENAGE muslin engages an attorney to sue a national company because it won’t change it’s business model FOR HER. If the company believes HER chosen mode of dress may adversely impact it’s ability to attract customers, the company is well within IT’S rights to deny her the job. What kind of whacko religion prevents someone from removing headgear during working hours? What she does on her own time is fine, but she has no right to dictate to the rest of the world and expect it to accomodate her. You may recall some other muslims in Florida who sued because they didn’t want to remove their religious garb for a driver’s license photo. They lost that case. She should lose this one. When you choose to live here, you should expect to make some concessions to your routine. If not, I think Amy’s suggestion is valid……..go back to where you came from if you think it offers better freedom.
I agree; some have thought this out well, and this has nothing to do with discrimination or religion but rather using our constitution to take advantage of our tolerance… someone posted this: “If wearing the hijab is so important, there’s a companion price for that decision when you’re in this country.” This is the crux of the matter, why indeed apply for a job where your attire is not appropriate for the job? There are OSHA regulations for clothing in certain jobs where the clothing is limited for safety reasons; a hajib is like a turban and while some women in the middle east would go to a fashion show, and see models with one on, it is out of place when selling the A & F line of clothing. this was a business decision; I like the comparison to Hooters…can you imagine some attorney wanted to make a buck on this? to what end?
well said about the anti-thetical aspects. Truth is this is a 6th century attitude, which is used to enforce power over others, using religion as a crutch. Perosnally I don’t give a damn what religion anyone is; keep it to yourself and out of the PUBLIC domain!
I work in Manhattan and have to share public transportation with them. I also shop in stores where they work. I’m here to tell you their hygiene practices are noticeably deficient compared to Americans. While they may have no issue with body odor…….I find it offensive. All the comments about being “accepting” are fine provided the people in question make an effort to respect my rights as an American. I don’t appreciate being subjected to the habits and culture they brought here from the “old country”. This is not a religion issue. Requiring an employee to remove ethnic/religious head gear while on the job is not discrimination. My employer requires me to wear a suit. Is that discrimination? And where does this teenage muslim snot get off suing an American company because she can’t dress like she did in whatever country she came from? If I want to see people dressed like that I’ll visit them back in their old country. America should not tolerate abuse by immingrants. The European immingrants came here to assimilate…..nor force the new country to put up with their old habits. Today, immigrants from Muslim countries don’t want to be real Amercians, they just want all the good things this country offers. This suit is slap in the face to Americans.
My mother used to remind us how hard my grandpa and grandma worked to be “American” and the pride they took in becoming citizens; she also emphasized how today, immigrants want to live, work and play in their own “enclaves” instead of assimilating instead of like in her time where they stopped dressing, speaking and acting like the old country. Yes, they kept their cuisine but that was considered a delicacy and any other show of the old country was thought to be quaint. But in 1905, Pennsylvania passed a law “outlawing” German in the public schools. I learned to speak German at their house but they stressed english to us kids so we could also be a part of America and enjoy its fruits. this has been lost on today’s immigrants and we have lost the ability to help them along because of political correctness and fear of being intolerant. I say, speak “American”, act “American” and you’ll be treated and respected as American. We want those who yearn for freedom, not those who yearn to use our freedom for their own purposes and yes, I believe there are those who want “sharia inch-by-inch”; Britain and France faces the same problem: lack of assimilation. Go back if you don’t like it!
If the chick wants to wear her hijab and work as a cash-register jockey in a ridiculous store where the turn-over rate is sky high anyway, then effing let her already. Good grief.
A&F should consider that if they hire her and allow her to work there, most people might not even notice her scarf.
Those that do will probably not give a hoot.
Those who are disturbed by it will probably treat her like crap. If that happens enough she will either quit wearing the hijab or she will get sick of the BS and quit.
It’s win/win for A&F and the young woman and for Americans because our courts aren’t tied up with one less nonsense case like this.
This “assimilation” thing is fine… but at what point does it go too far? At what point does it end? There was a fellow once who wanted the whole world to be assimilated – blond hair, blue eyes, all Christians… That didn’t work out so good.
Better to tolerate our few differences, no? Even if some of those differences are annoying. I mean, who among us can say we’re perfect and never get on anyone’s nerves?
Besides, if we were all exactly the same, how boring would that be?
I think the point is; a company has the right to project the image they wish to project; especially nowadays. In my opinion this darn “PC” crap needs to stop.
If Hooters wants hot chicks slingin wings instead of Hogs sweatin up the place, then that is their choice. So far it has worked pretty well. I know I’d much rather have an attractive woman serve me greasy nosh than a fat pig squeezed into a greased sock; but maybe I’m funny that way. Just because someone doesn’t fit the bill; whining about it is ridiculous.
Hell; look at Victoria’s Secret. It used to be a bastion of hotness. Truly one of the few stores that a man would willingly accompany his wife just to enjoy the view; admitedly while still acting bored. Now you can see the “PC” hiring kicking in; there’s often the tolken heffer or obvious cross-dresser working. Back in the day they’d have round-filed that application as soon as the “he-she” left the store.
Ambercrombie has an upper – upper/middle class, snotty, primarily white clientele. When these people go shopping to score that $50 t-shirt that makes them look oh-so-hip; they generally want to see similar people working in the store. A cute guy for those ladies, a hot chick for those dudes. It’s just the way it is and it works for them.
The bottom line is if you want to consider a job, the first thing you should take into account is your own qualifications. if the prospective employer has a specific image and dress code that they are trying to project and you are unwilling to modify wearing a religious scarf, a nose peircing, having purple hair, practicing bad hygene, or just generally have the appearance of 20 pounds of crap in a 10 pound sack; then you don’t qualify for the job; period.
Comparing the current influx of immigrants to our Forefathers is nowhere near the same thing. They came here and built this country from the ground up and those of us that have lived here for hundreds of years have paid the price to live without being oppressed by the noobies.
I’m not saying there aren’t current immigrants looking to better themselves and are willing to work hard to make that happen, but there is a large percentage just looking for a handout.
Call me the Archie Bunker of the 21st century, but I have no desire for the America I love to turn into a place where respect is no longer something earned by new-comers but something expected from those that built this country as soon as you walk in the door.
Besides; I’m part American Indian so everybody needs to go back where they came from.
KLS, I can only assume that your are referring to my use of terms like “hog” and “heffer”.
The fact of the matter is, people can be overweight and attractive at the same time. ‘Tis true it’s a rare phenomenon, but occasionally the two do coincide.
It just so happens that in the two instances I’m referring to, it was in fact what I would qualify as a sweaty hog at Hooters and a heffer at Victoria’s Secret that I was talking about.
You know the type; subtle glistening of persiration on the upper lip of the weightress; er, make that waitress, accompanied by heavy breathing while mightily romping from table to table smelling subtley of corn chips and body odor. Complete with the poorly applied makeup and ratty hair. Real appetizing. It’s not that she’s overweight, it’s that she’s clearly not up to the same standard as some of the other waitresses.
Then there’s that one sales-chick at Victoria’s Secret who’s only secret is the fact that she didn’t feel compelled to shower that morning. Instead she overslept as evidenced by the fact that half her hair hangs at an argumentative angle to the rest and her makeup is clearly a greasy touch up from the night before.
You see; the fact that they don’t even sell panties in her size at Victoria’s Secret is not the point; it’s the lack of presenting one’s self in a way that other would find appealing enough to prompt them to patronize your establishment.
Both of these examples illustrate someone undeserving of the position. Someone who only cheapens the time honored tradition of hotness associated with these two becons of truth in an otherwise false world.
The large percentage of fat/lazy people in this country is a secondary issue. Being a “big person” does not, in itself, merit less respect than someone who stays in shape. But it certainly projects a different image than if Fabio walks in the door.
Since you bring it up; it actually amazes me that being overweight is so common in this country. It’s one of the very few perceived “negative” things that most people have complete control over. It’s not like if you’re born ugly it’s as simple as skipping a few burgers a week will make you prettier. Just as the Muslim girl in this story can’t just remove her scarf and magically eliminate the predjudice that she will have to unfairly face. But I digress.
My point is; everyone is dealt a certain hand and it’s up to them how they play it. Some people just get lucky and are dealt four aces; others get absolute crap.
The key is taking that crap and trying to mold it into something useful; not smearing it on the wall and complaining because people say you stink.
Dear Amy,
you my dear, are disgusting. You make me sad to ‘an american’ if this is YOUR country. Welcome to 2009: globalization is happening whether you want it to or not. And heads up: i have met some very smelly russians. Immigration to America is not about giving up your own culture. It is exactly the opposite. Please, do open your mind and relax already.
I respectfully disagree with it, however we’re all free to judge whomever we want.
In my opinion, passing judgment on people for their size is totally the same as hating someone for being black or being non-Christian or having a crooked nose.
The fact that big people can (sometimes, not always) change their size is irrelevant. Michael Jackson was able to change his skin color. That didn’t make racism acceptable. So how does weight loss make size-ism acceptable? (Forgive me, I doubt size-ism is a real word but you know what I mean.)
Since you’ve been generous enough to openly share your thoughts on the topic, Reason, would you mind giving me some additional insight on your views? (And I fully realize you’re not the only one who thinks the way you do. I would estimate, from personal experience unfortunately, the majority of Americans tend to dislike large people.) It isn’t often I get a chance to discuss this with someone who is willing to talk openly, as you seem to be. Thank you, btw.
My question is – does your opinion of large people benefit you?
Actually, I’d like to pose a question to anyone who is willing to answer…
Does your negative judgment of another group of people improve your life?
Seriously, please do tell. It’s not like you’d be personally accountable for posting it here. It’s anonymous.
First I want to say that I believe there is a significant difference between “passing judgement” on someone and “hating” them.
I may not like someone because they have a trait that annoys me; I’d say that is passing judgement. I rank hating someone up there with genuinely not caring or even applauding if they were hit by a bus.
I pass judgement on overweight “emo” kids; I hate some politicians.
I believe people tend to pass judgement (i.e. make rude comments, jokes, look down upon, etc.) on things that they either find offensive, find annoying, makes them uncomfortable, or things that they simply do not understand. I try not to fall into this category.
That being said; I’d have to say that it’d be hard to argue that someone’s opinion benefits them in some way. But my opinions are definitely influenced by experience.
Case in point; ever sit on a 5+ hour plane ride next to someone that half fills your seat as well as their own? Add a funky aroma to the mix and I’ve lived that dream. It sucks.
Does it benefit me to look down upon this obviously fat/lazy individual. I can’t say it does. But does it make me a bad person for looking down upon them when I base my opinion on how they have presented themself to me. Again; I don’t think so.
I say this guy was fat and lazy because I believe he was; not as some sort of name calling. He was obviously overweight, the lazy part comes from the way in which he presented himself on the plane. Someone that doesn’t have the common courtesy to take the steps necessary to control their body odor knowing they are going to be sharing a confined space for the next several hours is just lazy and/or rude.
I try to give everyone a “fair shake”. Whether they screw that up and, in turn, my resulting opinion of them is their responsibility.
There are MANY big people here in my office. Some are very pleasant, neatly groomed, intelligent people. I enjoy dealing with them as much as I enjoy dealing with anyone in the office that fits those criteria.
On the other hand; there are some that are just disgusting. Subtly dirty clothes, body odor on occasion, a few even accentuate the negative by having hair dyed in unnatural colors and/or odd peircings. These few have no one to blame but themselves if people look down on them. That’s not to say that there aren’t people around here that are no where near overweight that I can’t stand either. There are plenty of those too.
Unfortunately; many people don’t make the distinction and cast a bad shadow on all of a particular group, race, or religion.
I have friends of all sizes, colors, and backgrounds. They all know that I have one rule; if your an a–; I don’t want anything to do with you. (I have several colorful and distinct definitions for what constitutes an a–.) I couldn’t care less what you look like, where you come from, or who you pray to.
Here’s an example of one that happened last week. It could be something as simple as not leaving a courtesy one urnal buffer zone between you and I (when possible) for me not to like you. It’s just rude. In my humble opinion, whoever concocted “communal” crappers should be shot. I have no desire to have you stand 12 inches to my left while I pee if it can be avoided. Even worse are the people who want to start a conversation while your standing there. Looking over at you while they’re talking trying to check out your junk. Makes me want to pee on their foot. “There; wanna see it? Here you go!”
Bad breath, body odor, laziness, stupidity, and conceitedness, to name a few more, are all grounds for me not to like you. If any negative trait worthy of a negative opinion happens to be accompanied by someone being overweight, skinny, black, white, mexican, asian, etc. is purely coincidental.
So I guess my official answer would be; it depends.
Most of the time, my opinion of others does not benefit me, but I try to give people a fair shot at forming my opinion on their own.
The exception would be opinions/beliefs I hold due to prior life experience pertaining to certain groups/types of people which I feel are very justified and have served me well in past endevors. But it has nothing to do with someone’s size or color.
WIth success in this suit, I would imagine the next application might be at Hooter’s
What happened to coming to America and being an American…….
What you cant be an American and still have your own religious belifes? The headscarf would not make that company lose business. They have a long history of discrimination hopefully they get what they deserve and no prudent person would expect them to apply at Hooters but a retail outlet come on.
I am sick and tired of immingrants who WANT to live here, but REFUSE to learn to speak the language and adopt our native culture. She made the decision to be a Muslim and wear the hijab. To AMERICANS, that’s offensive. Nobody should have to put up with their nonsense. It it’s so important to them, let them go back to whatever 3rd world country they left. WE SHOULD NOT BE COMPROMISING AMERICAN CULTURE FOR ANYONE.
I was gonna take a stab at the “back pay” mentioned among the lawsuit’s objectives (was the young lady even hired?), but your comment, Just Me, needs some attention.
Nothing has happened to coming to America and being American. In fact, part of “being American” means exercising one’s inherent right to religious freedom and expression–heck, even the KKK gets that consideration when they decide they want to hold a rally somewhere!
…and where in the story is it mentioned or indicated that the teen is not a citizen of the United States by birth or otherwise?
Perhaps you should consider your thoughts a bit more before pounding the keyboard with them for all to see…?
What is American Culture? – sit your obese butt on the couch and watch realty shows? We are all descended from immigrants. Maybe bagpipes and Danny Boy was offense at one time.
Amy, please see my response to Just Me; apparently a lot of people think that because a person doesn’t share the same religious belief that they do automatically means they’re heathens who should “go back to whatever 3rd world country they left.”
Would you feel the same about an Irish Catholic, a Southern Baptist, or even an aethiest?
You said it right, Big Mike.
People seem to think this whole “freedom” thing only applies to white Christian Americans.
I can’t believe we’re almost to 2010 and there is still so much intolerance.
As for Abercrombie – they sell $50 T-SHIRTS! Do you really want to work for a company whose customers are stupid enough to pay $50 for a t-shirt?
Commentary such as was put in some of the posts is unworthy of further discussion. We cannot allow discrimination or we step back 250 years to the time before this country was founded. Life may have been simpler but it certainly was NOT better.
What does bother me though is the valuation that these offenses seem to draw. Was this lady truly injured? Was she unable to get another job because of this decision? I doubt that she stayed awake even one night worrying about it but there’s a smart lawyer or two who did.
A&F, certainly, needs to get their heads out of the sand and realize they cannot administer employments this way…but at $50 million per EEOC lawsuit, is this just an attempt to run them out of business?? ..and who could be next??
I think if she had asked if she could wear an Abercrombie scarf as her hijab, she would have been given the job! Just a thought…………
Big Mike,
My remarks have nothing to do with religion. I am very tolerant of others religious beliefs, but I don’t care to see them parading around in their native costumes. They make no effort to ASSIMILATE and rub their “beliefs”, including their poor hygiene and native garb in our faces. You make think that’s fine, but I dislike having my country invaded by those who have no intention of becoming AMERICAN. We’re fast becoming a virtual ethinic bazaar. You don’t see any of that with the Irish, Italians, Polish, Hungarians, and Russians. They emmigrated here to become AMERICAN and I don’t hear anybody on the phone saying “press one for Hungarian”. If wearing the hijab is so important, there’s a companion price for that decision when you’re in this country.
Curious to see the forces at work behind this suit…oh wait, it is the Council on American-Islamic Relations!
There are a couple of terms which have come about… “stealth Jihad”, “creeping Sharia”, and “Sharia inch-by-inch”
It is important to remember that religion itself is an idea and not a person and thus does not possess ‘human rights’. Religion (any religion) does not have a right not to be offended. While we accept and allow any religion to be practiced and in fact prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion, the right to criticize religion or “blaspheme” (for lack of a better word) must always be respected.
The first amendment must never be diluted in favor of barring criticism of religion — even if under the banner of political correctness, preventing the inciting of violence etc.
“I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write” –Voltaire
Good Point on the poor hygiene. When are we going to start a lawsuit againt that?
Why would someone so devote to their beliefs, be insulted about not being allowed to wear their head coverings at work, but want to work in a place where the models walk around with very little or inappropriate clothing?
PU your comment leads one to wonder if a legitimate grievance was voiced or if perhaps a series of actions were taken in hopes of a certain outcome with which to bring action on?
I do not think this issue is at heart about money. Money would be the catalyst in our capitalist society– a large judgement, or threat of one, in a high-profile case could be enough to affect the future behavior of liability-shy coporations. But I think the end goal is in the changed behavior itself and not in the money which is a means to an end.
Never mind…
I have to agree with Amy!!!!!!!!
I have attended seminars taught by professors who are Muslim religion instructors at universities. Every one stated that the clothing worn by the women are not required by the Koran but are cultural norms. Look at the different styles worn by Muslims worn in different areas of the globe.
Therefore I hope that the store fights and wins this one as wearing the hijab is not a religious requirement.
Creeping Sharia…the hijab is one expression/requirement for many Muslim woman. Islam is a political system wrapped in a religion. It is antithetical to Western European civilization and it’s values, philosophies, traditions, religions, laws, etc. There are deeper issues here. CAIR is using our legal system against us. Don’t be hobbits. Check out http://www.actforamerica.com
typical of folks like Big Mike from Cali, “never mind” when they are confronted with opinions that they don’t share or want to hear. That’s why this country is going in the toilet to begin with! Just turn your back, say never mind and let bastards take over! This is America, here she can go to court, in her “homeland” she’d probably already be in jail. A&F has a right, yes right, to ASK all employees to dress a certain way, if you don’t like it, go apply at pizza hut or burger king or someother teen type employer, stop with the nonsense.
Amy,
Go to any major American city and watch the St. Patrick’s Day Parade, Italian Fests, etc. Never once have I seen someone say these folks are un-American, or refusing to assimilate. Why are Muslims any different?
Would you say the same if it was a Jewish man/teen who was not allowed to wear a yarmulke? How about a Sikh with a turban? Where is the line?
I’m afraid that it’s folks like you who just abide allowing folks living in accordance to a custom that give us such a negative reputation in the world. Isn’t America great because it is a beacon of freedom and tolerance? That I can be judged based on my whole person, not just what I wear on my head or what color my skin is or which day I pray?
If A&F thinks a hajib is inappropriate, shouldn’t a rosary be equally inappropriate?
As for your disgustingly racist remarks about hygiene, I can only shake my head in pity for your small mindedness.
If an employee is stocking shelves or counting inventory, the “look” would be immaterial. If an employee is out front selling, let the “look” demonstrate it’s own importance by putting ALL employees on a nominal draw plus COMMISSION. It might suprise us how important the “look” is to the clientele. Or not. Either way, the employee shares the impact of dressing contrary to best marketing practices as identified by management.
Okay, Spins22, my comment was in exasperation at Amy, because it appeared that she contradicted herself in her own comment responding to mine. But, as it stands, I didn’t feel the need to engage in an extended discussion with her, nor do I with you.
Thank God this is a free country and society where we can openly agree or disagree without fear of reprisal from those “who don’t share” the same opinions…
I find it offensive that a TEENAGE muslin engages an attorney to sue a national company because it won’t change it’s business model FOR HER. If the company believes HER chosen mode of dress may adversely impact it’s ability to attract customers, the company is well within IT’S rights to deny her the job. What kind of whacko religion prevents someone from removing headgear during working hours? What she does on her own time is fine, but she has no right to dictate to the rest of the world and expect it to accomodate her. You may recall some other muslims in Florida who sued because they didn’t want to remove their religious garb for a driver’s license photo. They lost that case. She should lose this one. When you choose to live here, you should expect to make some concessions to your routine. If not, I think Amy’s suggestion is valid……..go back to where you came from if you think it offers better freedom.
I agree; some have thought this out well, and this has nothing to do with discrimination or religion but rather using our constitution to take advantage of our tolerance… someone posted this: “If wearing the hijab is so important, there’s a companion price for that decision when you’re in this country.” This is the crux of the matter, why indeed apply for a job where your attire is not appropriate for the job? There are OSHA regulations for clothing in certain jobs where the clothing is limited for safety reasons; a hajib is like a turban and while some women in the middle east would go to a fashion show, and see models with one on, it is out of place when selling the A & F line of clothing. this was a business decision; I like the comparison to Hooters…can you imagine some attorney wanted to make a buck on this? to what end?
well said about the anti-thetical aspects. Truth is this is a 6th century attitude, which is used to enforce power over others, using religion as a crutch. Perosnally I don’t give a damn what religion anyone is; keep it to yourself and out of the PUBLIC domain!
I work in Manhattan and have to share public transportation with them. I also shop in stores where they work. I’m here to tell you their hygiene practices are noticeably deficient compared to Americans. While they may have no issue with body odor…….I find it offensive. All the comments about being “accepting” are fine provided the people in question make an effort to respect my rights as an American. I don’t appreciate being subjected to the habits and culture they brought here from the “old country”. This is not a religion issue. Requiring an employee to remove ethnic/religious head gear while on the job is not discrimination. My employer requires me to wear a suit. Is that discrimination? And where does this teenage muslim snot get off suing an American company because she can’t dress like she did in whatever country she came from? If I want to see people dressed like that I’ll visit them back in their old country. America should not tolerate abuse by immingrants. The European immingrants came here to assimilate…..nor force the new country to put up with their old habits. Today, immigrants from Muslim countries don’t want to be real Amercians, they just want all the good things this country offers. This suit is slap in the face to Americans.
My mother used to remind us how hard my grandpa and grandma worked to be “American” and the pride they took in becoming citizens; she also emphasized how today, immigrants want to live, work and play in their own “enclaves” instead of assimilating instead of like in her time where they stopped dressing, speaking and acting like the old country. Yes, they kept their cuisine but that was considered a delicacy and any other show of the old country was thought to be quaint. But in 1905, Pennsylvania passed a law “outlawing” German in the public schools. I learned to speak German at their house but they stressed english to us kids so we could also be a part of America and enjoy its fruits. this has been lost on today’s immigrants and we have lost the ability to help them along because of political correctness and fear of being intolerant. I say, speak “American”, act “American” and you’ll be treated and respected as American. We want those who yearn for freedom, not those who yearn to use our freedom for their own purposes and yes, I believe there are those who want “sharia inch-by-inch”; Britain and France faces the same problem: lack of assimilation. Go back if you don’t like it!
If the chick wants to wear her hijab and work as a cash-register jockey in a ridiculous store where the turn-over rate is sky high anyway, then effing let her already. Good grief.
A&F should consider that if they hire her and allow her to work there, most people might not even notice her scarf.
Those that do will probably not give a hoot.
Those who are disturbed by it will probably treat her like crap. If that happens enough she will either quit wearing the hijab or she will get sick of the BS and quit.
It’s win/win for A&F and the young woman and for Americans because our courts aren’t tied up with one less nonsense case like this.
This “assimilation” thing is fine… but at what point does it go too far? At what point does it end? There was a fellow once who wanted the whole world to be assimilated – blond hair, blue eyes, all Christians… That didn’t work out so good.
Better to tolerate our few differences, no? Even if some of those differences are annoying. I mean, who among us can say we’re perfect and never get on anyone’s nerves?
Besides, if we were all exactly the same, how boring would that be?
IJ really needs an edit feature. LoL
I meant the courts ARE tied up with one less case… not “aren’t”… Oops.
@_@
I think the point is; a company has the right to project the image they wish to project; especially nowadays. In my opinion this darn “PC” crap needs to stop.
If Hooters wants hot chicks slingin wings instead of Hogs sweatin up the place, then that is their choice. So far it has worked pretty well. I know I’d much rather have an attractive woman serve me greasy nosh than a fat pig squeezed into a greased sock; but maybe I’m funny that way. Just because someone doesn’t fit the bill; whining about it is ridiculous.
Hell; look at Victoria’s Secret. It used to be a bastion of hotness. Truly one of the few stores that a man would willingly accompany his wife just to enjoy the view; admitedly while still acting bored. Now you can see the “PC” hiring kicking in; there’s often the tolken heffer or obvious cross-dresser working. Back in the day they’d have round-filed that application as soon as the “he-she” left the store.
Ambercrombie has an upper – upper/middle class, snotty, primarily white clientele. When these people go shopping to score that $50 t-shirt that makes them look oh-so-hip; they generally want to see similar people working in the store. A cute guy for those ladies, a hot chick for those dudes. It’s just the way it is and it works for them.
The bottom line is if you want to consider a job, the first thing you should take into account is your own qualifications. if the prospective employer has a specific image and dress code that they are trying to project and you are unwilling to modify wearing a religious scarf, a nose peircing, having purple hair, practicing bad hygene, or just generally have the appearance of 20 pounds of crap in a 10 pound sack; then you don’t qualify for the job; period.
Comparing the current influx of immigrants to our Forefathers is nowhere near the same thing. They came here and built this country from the ground up and those of us that have lived here for hundreds of years have paid the price to live without being oppressed by the noobies.
I’m not saying there aren’t current immigrants looking to better themselves and are willing to work hard to make that happen, but there is a large percentage just looking for a handout.
Call me the Archie Bunker of the 21st century, but I have no desire for the America I love to turn into a place where respect is no longer something earned by new-comers but something expected from those that built this country as soon as you walk in the door.
Besides; I’m part American Indian so everybody needs to go back where they came from.
And to the last line in that well-thought, articulated dissertation, my response is:
LOLROF!!!
(Laughing Out Loud Rolling On Floor, for those not familiar with text-msg lingo!)
It’s confusing to see you say this about respect, Reason…
“I have no desire for the America I love to turn into a place where respect is no longer something earned by new-comers…”
…when you use such disrespectful terms to describe big people.
Respect is important, unless the person in question is fat?
KLS, I can only assume that your are referring to my use of terms like “hog” and “heffer”.
The fact of the matter is, people can be overweight and attractive at the same time. ‘Tis true it’s a rare phenomenon, but occasionally the two do coincide.
It just so happens that in the two instances I’m referring to, it was in fact what I would qualify as a sweaty hog at Hooters and a heffer at Victoria’s Secret that I was talking about.
You know the type; subtle glistening of persiration on the upper lip of the weightress; er, make that waitress, accompanied by heavy breathing while mightily romping from table to table smelling subtley of corn chips and body odor. Complete with the poorly applied makeup and ratty hair. Real appetizing. It’s not that she’s overweight, it’s that she’s clearly not up to the same standard as some of the other waitresses.
Then there’s that one sales-chick at Victoria’s Secret who’s only secret is the fact that she didn’t feel compelled to shower that morning. Instead she overslept as evidenced by the fact that half her hair hangs at an argumentative angle to the rest and her makeup is clearly a greasy touch up from the night before.
You see; the fact that they don’t even sell panties in her size at Victoria’s Secret is not the point; it’s the lack of presenting one’s self in a way that other would find appealing enough to prompt them to patronize your establishment.
Both of these examples illustrate someone undeserving of the position. Someone who only cheapens the time honored tradition of hotness associated with these two becons of truth in an otherwise false world.
The large percentage of fat/lazy people in this country is a secondary issue. Being a “big person” does not, in itself, merit less respect than someone who stays in shape. But it certainly projects a different image than if Fabio walks in the door.
Since you bring it up; it actually amazes me that being overweight is so common in this country. It’s one of the very few perceived “negative” things that most people have complete control over. It’s not like if you’re born ugly it’s as simple as skipping a few burgers a week will make you prettier. Just as the Muslim girl in this story can’t just remove her scarf and magically eliminate the predjudice that she will have to unfairly face. But I digress.
My point is; everyone is dealt a certain hand and it’s up to them how they play it. Some people just get lucky and are dealt four aces; others get absolute crap.
The key is taking that crap and trying to mold it into something useful; not smearing it on the wall and complaining because people say you stink.
Dear Amy,
you my dear, are disgusting. You make me sad to ‘an american’ if this is YOUR country. Welcome to 2009: globalization is happening whether you want it to or not. And heads up: i have met some very smelly russians. Immigration to America is not about giving up your own culture. It is exactly the opposite. Please, do open your mind and relax already.
I think I see what you’re trying to say, Reason.
I respectfully disagree with it, however we’re all free to judge whomever we want.
In my opinion, passing judgment on people for their size is totally the same as hating someone for being black or being non-Christian or having a crooked nose.
The fact that big people can (sometimes, not always) change their size is irrelevant. Michael Jackson was able to change his skin color. That didn’t make racism acceptable. So how does weight loss make size-ism acceptable? (Forgive me, I doubt size-ism is a real word but you know what I mean.)
Since you’ve been generous enough to openly share your thoughts on the topic, Reason, would you mind giving me some additional insight on your views? (And I fully realize you’re not the only one who thinks the way you do. I would estimate, from personal experience unfortunately, the majority of Americans tend to dislike large people.) It isn’t often I get a chance to discuss this with someone who is willing to talk openly, as you seem to be. Thank you, btw.
My question is – does your opinion of large people benefit you?
Actually, I’d like to pose a question to anyone who is willing to answer…
Does your negative judgment of another group of people improve your life?
Seriously, please do tell. It’s not like you’d be personally accountable for posting it here. It’s anonymous.
Good question KLS.
First I want to say that I believe there is a significant difference between “passing judgement” on someone and “hating” them.
I may not like someone because they have a trait that annoys me; I’d say that is passing judgement. I rank hating someone up there with genuinely not caring or even applauding if they were hit by a bus.
I pass judgement on overweight “emo” kids; I hate some politicians.
I believe people tend to pass judgement (i.e. make rude comments, jokes, look down upon, etc.) on things that they either find offensive, find annoying, makes them uncomfortable, or things that they simply do not understand. I try not to fall into this category.
That being said; I’d have to say that it’d be hard to argue that someone’s opinion benefits them in some way. But my opinions are definitely influenced by experience.
Case in point; ever sit on a 5+ hour plane ride next to someone that half fills your seat as well as their own? Add a funky aroma to the mix and I’ve lived that dream. It sucks.
Does it benefit me to look down upon this obviously fat/lazy individual. I can’t say it does. But does it make me a bad person for looking down upon them when I base my opinion on how they have presented themself to me. Again; I don’t think so.
I say this guy was fat and lazy because I believe he was; not as some sort of name calling. He was obviously overweight, the lazy part comes from the way in which he presented himself on the plane. Someone that doesn’t have the common courtesy to take the steps necessary to control their body odor knowing they are going to be sharing a confined space for the next several hours is just lazy and/or rude.
I try to give everyone a “fair shake”. Whether they screw that up and, in turn, my resulting opinion of them is their responsibility.
There are MANY big people here in my office. Some are very pleasant, neatly groomed, intelligent people. I enjoy dealing with them as much as I enjoy dealing with anyone in the office that fits those criteria.
On the other hand; there are some that are just disgusting. Subtly dirty clothes, body odor on occasion, a few even accentuate the negative by having hair dyed in unnatural colors and/or odd peircings. These few have no one to blame but themselves if people look down on them. That’s not to say that there aren’t people around here that are no where near overweight that I can’t stand either. There are plenty of those too.
Unfortunately; many people don’t make the distinction and cast a bad shadow on all of a particular group, race, or religion.
I have friends of all sizes, colors, and backgrounds. They all know that I have one rule; if your an a–; I don’t want anything to do with you. (I have several colorful and distinct definitions for what constitutes an a–.) I couldn’t care less what you look like, where you come from, or who you pray to.
Here’s an example of one that happened last week. It could be something as simple as not leaving a courtesy one urnal buffer zone between you and I (when possible) for me not to like you. It’s just rude. In my humble opinion, whoever concocted “communal” crappers should be shot. I have no desire to have you stand 12 inches to my left while I pee if it can be avoided. Even worse are the people who want to start a conversation while your standing there. Looking over at you while they’re talking trying to check out your junk. Makes me want to pee on their foot. “There; wanna see it? Here you go!”
Bad breath, body odor, laziness, stupidity, and conceitedness, to name a few more, are all grounds for me not to like you. If any negative trait worthy of a negative opinion happens to be accompanied by someone being overweight, skinny, black, white, mexican, asian, etc. is purely coincidental.
So I guess my official answer would be; it depends.
Most of the time, my opinion of others does not benefit me, but I try to give people a fair shot at forming my opinion on their own.
The exception would be opinions/beliefs I hold due to prior life experience pertaining to certain groups/types of people which I feel are very justified and have served me well in past endevors. But it has nothing to do with someone’s size or color.