Separate payments from their insurance carrier? What is that supposed to mean? Is this so the employer can keep track of who is using contraceptives so they can fire the employee? WTF???
Good question, Libby. People having sex for reasons other than procreation is just a tough notion for some on the religious right to…wait for it…conceive.
Wish I could have been there, that would have been a blast.
The draft, in general, was a weak one. I did like the noise Stern was receiving. He gave a little back right after Chicago’s pick, though. I think the guys Chicago selected are, at the very least, proven 3 point threats at the college level. Snell will have to be patient, playing behind Deng and Butler. Surround D-Rose with a couple shooters, one of which is also gifted with height (Murphy) – sounds promising. I still say The Bulls are one marquis player short. But, I think these picks make the team stronger from the 3 point line. And, as we saw throughout The Playoffs, the 3 point line was crucial for the teams who progressed. On the surface, Gar did well with this draft. What are your thoughts, FFA?
What you morons on the left never seem to understand is the concept of personal responsibility. I really don’t care who or what you have sex with. I just feel that if you don’t want any offspring from your endeavors, that you should be responsible for it, not me. I should not have to pay for your indiscretions. If I take the left’s argument out a little further, any time I go out and have a little too much to drink, YOU should pay for my cab ride home so I don’t put myself and others around me in danger by trying to drive home. But as I said, pushing the nanny state, the whole idea of personal responsibility is totally foreign to you isn’t it?
So what is your opinion on heart meds? How about insulin? Oh, and prozac? Heartburn meds? Any of these could fall under the personal responsibility umbrella, yet they are already covered by health insurance. What makes them so special?
Last I checked, they are subject to Co Pay. So should Birth Control.
I am past my baby making days. I covered Contraception my entire life for me. Now I have to start paying again.
June 28, 2013 at 3:56 pm
Wayne says:
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You take heart meds, insulin, prozac and heartburn meds are prescribed for an existing medical condition. Birth control is prescribed to prevent pregnancy, something that could be accomplished without meds by not having coitus.
The government forcing employer sponsored health plans to cover birth control or any other elective medication or surgery oversteps what government should be able to do.
June 28, 2013 at 4:16 pm
Libby says:
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It’s called preventative medicine, Wayne. Look it up. You’ll find it there right next to annual physicals (covered), mammograms (covered), flu shots (covered) and a myriad of other products and procedures.
June 29, 2013 at 3:40 pm
Dave says:
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Seriously jw? When people don’t take heart meds or insulin they can die.
July 1, 2013 at 10:28 am
jw says:
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Since I don’t have a need for heart meds, why should my insurance cover them Dave? That’s my point. The people who don’t need birth control appear to be complaining the loudest. Just sayin’.
July 1, 2013 at 11:11 am
Libby says:
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Dave:
That’s the cornerstone of insurance. The premiums of many pay the losses of a few. Stinks if you are one of the many, but it’s sure nice if you’re one of the few. Sounds socialist, doesn’t it??
Anyway, premiums are cheaper WITH birth control than without – so really that’s not even a valid arguement.
July 5, 2013 at 12:33 pm
Nebraskan says:
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I just wanted to ask Dave what he thinks Crestor is preventing…Maybe if you don’t want a heart attack, stop eating fried foods. Why is it my problem you can’t control your diet (if you are a person on Crestor). Some people do have a pre-existing condition, but even that can be controlled to an extent with diet. Your argument just doesn’t jive. And actually, if women could just take BC without the GOP interfering, we actually wouldn’t be a freaking Nanny State. THINK ABOUT IT!
July 5, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Nebraskan says:
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Actually, FFA, a lot of diabetes medicines are now free and not subject to a co-pay. They give it away….like candy. :)
July 5, 2013 at 12:35 pm
Nebraskan says:
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I shouldn’t say a lot, but I know one of the most prescribed medicines for diabetes doesn’t have a co-pay.
June 28, 2013 at 3:01 pm
Don't Call Me Shirley says:
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Dave, contraceptives and birth control ARE a means of taking personqal responsibility. Or do you prefer abortions? Maybe you also prefer an increase in the number of children on welfare? You conservative hypocrites are always screaming about the “nanny state” until you need something (e.g. FEMA). Then it’s ok. You don’t have any problem with the “nanny state” forcing women to have an ultrasound (an expensive, invasive procedure), but you have a problem with birth control? Really? And before you say “Well, I don’t think I should have to pay for it”, think about having to pay for the ultrasound. Which one do you think will cost you more?
Shirley, don’t say things about me you don’t know. I don’t support all those things you say. Again, do you feel YOU should pay for my cab ride home anytime I drink too much or anytime anybody else drinks too much?
June 30, 2013 at 2:36 am
Libby says:
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Dave – your argument about comparing drunk driving to using contraceptives is ridiculous. Who’s the moron on this site now???
June 30, 2013 at 2:37 am
Libby says:
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Plus he/she said DON’T call me Shirley.
July 3, 2013 at 2:21 pm
Patti Cake in the East says:
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FEMA, Shirley?? NEEDING something like FEMA?? LOL!!! FEMA is BROKE!!! You do make a good point, though. I don’t want to pay for a stranger’s birth control, nor do I want to pay for their abortions. You cannot argue the fact that there are women out there the use abortion AS BIRTH CONTROL.
July 8, 2013 at 9:14 am
Libby says:
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PC, there are alot of things I don’t want to pay for, too, but unfortunately we don’t get to choose where the money goes.
June 28, 2013 at 3:21 pm
Libby says:
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Dave – even a moron like me knows it is cheaper to provide birth control than to pay for unwanted pregnancies.
It sounds more like you object based more on moral issues since you call having sex an “indiscretion.” Going out, getting drunk, and driving home is illegal. Having sex is not. Yet. Waiting for the GOP to do that next.
Unprotected sex is an indiscretion. Indiscriminate sex (like the poster child bimbo who said she couldn’t afford the annual cost of thousands of dollars for her birth control) is indiscretion. We all should take precautions against things that are dangerous for us (not that pregnancy is dangerous) but who should pay for that protection is the debate you obviously don’t get. How about this Libby? How about we pay for guns and ammunition to help people protect themselves when they live in bad neighborhoods? Where do you draw the line on personal responsibility? Oh, that’s right. As a whacked out liberal you have no concept of personal responsibility. As a whacked out liberal you call for the death of George Bush. Your whacked out beliefs need to be taken with a grain of salt. How can we take anything you say seriously?
June 30, 2013 at 2:43 am
Libby says:
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Dave – I don’t expect you to take anything I say seriously, as you obviously don’t have a brain in your body. And if you’re not intelligent enough to read my other posts (which obviously you aren’t) you would know that including birth control in health plans LOWERS the cost, no increases it. MORON!!!
July 1, 2013 at 10:33 am
jw says:
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Dave, why do you continue to compare things that are not healthcare related? We are discussing what is and is not covered by healthcare. Quit trying to compare what you don’t want covered by insurance to guns, or driving drunk. They are not related – therefore, you cannot create an appropriate comparison.
July 3, 2013 at 2:22 pm
Patti Cake in the East says:
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Libby–what about the women who use abortion as a contraceptive????
July 7, 2013 at 1:22 pm
Dave says:
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Libby, anybody who calls for the death of a prior president is the one who doesn’t have a mind in her body. The beautiful thing about your being so ignorant is that you’re too ignorant to realize it. But feel free to continue with your mindless, violent rants.
July 8, 2013 at 9:09 am
Libby says:
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What about them?
July 8, 2013 at 9:11 am
Libby says:
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Dave, I didn’t “call for” anything. Is or is not treason an offense resulting in the death penalty? If yes, why should a former President be exempt from that penaly?
July 1, 2013 at 8:54 am
Nebraskan says:
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Then why, oh why, do I have to pay for people on diabetes medication, heart disease medication, radiation treatment?
If people were more socially responsible for their bodies, in general, the price of insurance wouldn’t be so high.
Actually Planet, are you aware that the Catholic church (which you claimed and I told you that you were lying, to be a part of)
Has classes which teach you ways to have slightly less of a chance of getting pregnant? They are stupid ways, but they teach it none the less. The religious right is catholics. There are about a billion in the world. Did you just lie or label 1 billion people without knowing better? Go figure. Before you get married in the catholic church they make you have these classes. So if marraige was only about procreation, why would they teach you how to not have kids?
1 billion people is 20% of the world. Churches do not teach that sex is only for procreation. A very small portion of the population does so. But you prefer to focus on the crazies, and then label the entire party.
I’m a republican. I don’t care why people have sex. Most don’t.
I thought the church is against contraception. Why is the catholic church teaching people “how not to have kids”? Isn’t that the whole basis of the Hobby Lobby suit? You can’t have it both ways. Either the church says contraceptives are not allowed or they are allowed. Which is it? Or are they just advocating their form of birth control? Come on, bob, tell me how it is.
these faith based businesses obviously aren’t screening their employees strictly enough. why do they have employees that would commit such an outrageous sin as using contraception? (NOTE: I am not serious)
would be interesting to know the number of employees that are defying their employers principals and are using contraception now. probably somewhere in excess of 80%?
Seems to me that the faith based employers are not denying the right of an employee to use a contraceptive, but instead their faith does not allow them to supply that contraceptive. The use of contraceptive is not the issue. The requirement to support contraceptive when it defies rules of your God is.
But does the bible actually say something about paying for someone else’s contraceptives? I really think that all those rules in the Old Testament were for the believer, not necessarily the believer’s employee. Just a thought.
Yeah, coat hangers weren’t invented yet. Yeah, I said it! Thumb me down until I’m censored.
June 28, 2013 at 3:40 pm
FFA says:
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Libby, that would be abortion – not birth control.
Flashing back to my High School History class, first form of birth control was pig intestine with a knot tied in the end.
June 28, 2013 at 3:42 pm
Libby says:
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Abortion is a type of birth control, FFA.
June 28, 2013 at 3:02 pm
PM says:
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JW,
Thinking along that line. Does the believer have the right to create the direct opportunity for someone to murder another person? Would it be right for the believer to buy a gun for someone that he knows is going to shoot another person? Seems to me, not only would that be a sin, but an intentional act and both would be accused of murder.
PM, seriously? You equate contraception to murder? What kind of f’d up logic is that?
June 28, 2013 at 3:36 pm
FFA says:
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See Aaron Hernandez.
June 28, 2013 at 3:45 pm
Libby says:
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Huh? What does Aaron Hernandez have to do with anything?
June 28, 2013 at 4:49 pm
PM says:
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Libby,
This much like many of your other comments completely miss the point to grab a tangent and exploit an area that’s unrelated to the topic at hand. I used this example as a reference to is it wrong to enable contraceptives for others from a prior comment.
June 28, 2013 at 4:58 pm
Libby says:
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It’s customary to reply to the post you are referring to so that people know to what you are referring.
July 1, 2013 at 10:38 am
jw says:
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PM, I didn’t ask if they had any right to do something illegal. I asked if the bible says believers cannot pay for a non-believer’s contraceptive. Not abortion, just something to prevent getting pregnant. It’s a question because I don’t know the answer.
July 2, 2013 at 12:52 pm
FFA says:
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Aaron Hernandez is a spoiled rich brat that don’t think the rules apply to him. F’n loser!
June 28, 2013 at 3:06 pm
Don't Call Me Shirley says:
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So I guess they shouldn’t support the public highways that are used to transport those contraceptives from the factory to the store. Are they against firefighters who might be utilized to put out any fires that might occur at a factory or a store that sells contraceptives?
Do the Amish have the right to ignore traffic signals?
Why is it that they mandate birth control but not the thouands of other medications and procedures that are available such as weight loss meds, plastic surgery, vitamin supplements, etc. etc.
Are there other procedures/medications that the bill mandates or just these?
Along with prescribing contraceptives comes annual exams, which will increase the number of healthy women in America. There are also cost savings from avoiding unwanted pregnancies (birth control v. pre-natal, post-natal, and pediatric care.) Could lessen the number of dependants draining government social service programs. There are a myriad of positive benefits reaped by providing what is a relatively low-cost product.
At some point IJ might start writing about Insurance rather than the left wing social engineering agenda. Seems to be in the tank for Obama and his social justice (“engineering”) programs.
The concerning issue for me is that business should be able to offer what they want and not be told what they will offer. Competition for employees should drive what is offered and not offered. Don’t like the employers benefits, go to a competitor that you like or another business.
Frankly I don’t think that either birth control pills or Viagra should be in a healthcare offering.
That makes sense, to a point. It’s not as easy to change jobs as you make it sound. If we had more job openings than job seekers, I would expect the benefits to drive the market. Right now, many are just happy to have an income, benefits are a luxury.
Good point and is why Obama should focus on job creation and improving the business economy and reducing debt. Do that and employees will have alternatives and competition for employees will be greater, driving wages and benefits. Employees will have more job choices.
Where in the Constitution does it state that job creation, improving the business economy and reducing debt are the sole responsibility of the President? I did not blame President Bush for the economic collapse while he was President for this reason.
I asked this question in a separate blog, please list all of the bills that have been vetoed by President Obama that would have solved these problems.
Hint: The Keystone Pipeline is neither a bill nor is it dead.
I am already aware of the dysfunction and lack of cooperation between the House of Representatives and the Senate.
You not being censored by me. You say stupid things people don’t care for, that’s all. For example, you are the only person I have ever known on this blog to offend every black man in America and post a KKK website link on this blog. Blame me if you like but your the one that makes the comments and the one at the keyboard.
Bullshit Sarge. As soon as you come onto a site, your ratings soar and mine are censored. You also inflate Agent’s and censor Captain Planet’s.
I did not offend any black person by sending you that link. You said you didn’t know of any black people in the KKK, so I showed you they had over 22,000 black members. You kinda have to go to the source to find that kind of stuff out. A simple google search was all I needed. And since you have been harping on me backing up my statements, I provided a link. Big deal.
Get over yourself and just admit you are a bigot. I’ll refrain from racist, since you are obviously of color. But you are a bigot against Mexican immigrants, welfare recipients, women, and gays. The horrible truth and YOU CAN’T HANDLE IT.
You are an idiot- You don’t think posting a KKK website link and taking the information on that site as correct is not offensive to blacks or anyone else for that matter.
You are a racist, an idiot and looks like people know it. W E S T P O I N T.
I’m not a racist Sarge and there was no racial motivation about me posting that link. I have never been racist and do not intend to start now. You are a bigot, Archie Bunker. Face it.
June 28, 2013 at 2:58 pm
FFA says:
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To further that thought Sarge, I think the Govt should worry about getting their own house in order before they start telling Successful business how to run their house.
Govt has no business sticking their nose into private business.
Right FFA. I haven’t seen any articles on protests from Hobby Lobby or Mardels employees demanding their employer pay for their birth control. Hobby Lobby has won a victory of sorts with their case being heard and they don’t have to pay the big fines in the meantime. This should be a choice of private business whether they offer a benefit or don’t offer it. In any case, the carriers are going to charge for it and it is sure to be reflected in the Group rate. Perhaps the employer can pinpoint the amount of the charge and it could be deducted from the employees check and let’s see how they like it.
I agree and if the focus is on what drives America- jobs, economic development, debt reduction, border security, dealing with cheap imports and labor then much of America’s problems go away.
This administration has never figured that out. They would rather Tax and spend to win elections
Sargeant, the argument is about “entitlements” and a government forcing employers to provide birth control and fund the increases sure to follow. Perhaps when enough employers drop their coverage entirely and throw the employees into the exchanges, they can then purchase the coverage on their own.
Sargeant, I really don’t think people who are trying to get a job at a company care if a company does not provide birth control to female employees. Most have been doing birth control for years before seeking a new job and have paying for it themselves. If it is that important to them, they can keep looking until they finally find someone willing to pay for it. It is amazing this country has been able to operate at all for a couple of hundred years without paying for all these wonderful benefits. I guess if you are indoctrinated into the entitlement mindset, you think everything should be provided no matter the cost.
Wrong! Agent, why do you insist on speaking of things you have no knowledge of? Most companies already include contraceptives in coverage, as it is cheaper to do so. Not since the mid 90’s has it been otherwise. I am no longer of childbearing age, so I don’t really have a personal dog in this fight. But there are so many other benefits that go along with doing this, not the least of which makes premums lower. Please, please, please give up your invalid argument and choose another one.
Libby said- “Yeah, coat hangers weren’t invented yet. Yeah, I said it! Thumb me down until I’m censored.”
Libby- and you wonder why you are thumbed down? Like I said you say stupid things that normal people don’t like. This on was real dumb. Not as bad as the KKK website and commentary but stupid
Oh brother, Sarge. What was so stupid about it? Nowhere in the bible does it address contraception or abortion. And yes, women did use coat hangers for abortions back in the day before we fought for our reproductive rights. It’s called “Freedom of Choice”. I thought all you GOPers were for individual freedoms. I guess you are until it’s freedom from bigotry, oppression, and hate. Those tenets you stand firmly behind. Good job!
Sarge – I can’t “like” your posts enough. There isn’t a word strong enough to describe just how stupid Libby and Captain Planet are. They both missed world history class. They are anti- God, anti religion and scoff at anything that might be morally upright.
Libby – The Bible certainly DOES address abortion, and very harshly – the punishment for a man causing a woman to lose her unborn child was DEATH(even if he were fighting with another man & it happened by accident). You just spew off and have no idea what you are talking about. Wow, your idiocy compelled me sign up to comment for the first time.
Olivia – where in the bible does it address a woman causing the “death” of her unborn child??? It doesn’t. The woman is the one that is saddled with burden of a child, not a man. She should be the one to decide if she wants to make that choice or not. Not all women have the choice to be impregnated. You must be a man and therefore have no business even speaking about the subject. Case closed.
Libby you are so indoctrinated in feminism that you can’t reason. You’re an embarrassment to women every where. Just how many abortions do you really believe are the result of rape or women having sex against their will?????? There are more than 101,000 babies murdered every day in this country. Are we to think that all those women were impregnated against their will? No, they can’t keep their legs together and you try to take that fact and make it sound as if they are forced to be impregnated. You are one sick puppy and unfortunately there are millions just like you. Elevate man (in your case, woman) and lust, not morality.
Whatever, Perplexed. Fortunately, I live in America where your “religion” can not be forced down my throat. The so-called “moral majority” thinks they have a corner on the morality market and if you stood back and looked, you are the intolerable, condemning, un-Christlike one here. Jesus preached tolerance and love, not hate and condemnation. I am perfectly secure in my beliefs, as it appears you are yours. Let’s just leave it at that.
JW – get out a concordance and look at the appearances of “murder” in the bible. You’ll find your answer.
July 1, 2013 at 2:38 pm
jw says:
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What in tarnations is a concordance?
July 1, 2013 at 4:28 pm
Quiet Observer says:
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Read your bible. Your death penalty is not the penalty for death of a fetus that occurred during a fight. Exodus 21:22 “If men shall fight and the collide with a pregnant woman and she miscarries, but there be no fatality, he shall surely be punished as the husband of the woman shall cause to be assessed against him, and he shall pay it by order of the judges.” Miscarriage is not the same as a fatality, since the verse deals only with the situation where there is a miscarriage and NO FATALITY.
I told my friends this weekend that I was a racist according to you. That got the biggest laugh and loudest applause of the whole night. Thanks for the party fodder. It’s very amusing.
JW,at the risk of throwing gas on this firestorm, read Exodus 21:22-15 and Psalm 139:13-16 regarding abortion. I have seen Psalm 127:3-5 quoted regarding opposition to contraception.
jazzeelady, thanks for replying. I was able to read the passages (I’m in a red state – LOTS of people in my office have bibles at their desks). I can see the connection in Exodus 21:22. Not so sure about the Psalms. I’m going to check this out further. My curiosity has been peaked. Anyway, thanks for actually answering and not attacking my ignorance of all things bible.
The language about a life for a life, an eye for an eye, etc. never meant literally what you think it means. Otherwise blind people would be exempt from any penalty if they poked out a seeing person’s eye!!! And anyway, this verse is only referring to a situation where there is a miscarriage due to men fighting and colliding with a pregnant woman AND THE PREGNANT WOMAN DIES.
July 1, 2013 at 2:23 pm
perplexed says:
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JW – scripture doesn’t mention contraceptives – it does mention a man spilling his seed but not in the context you’re looking for.You obviously haven’t read too much or sincerely wondered what God’s commands are. If you did you’d find that fornication, adultery, murder are all covered. God is a God of mercy and judgment. He isn’t mocked. You sin at your own risk. He has given us all free will. It’s up to us what to do with it.
Wow, talk about pushing the envelop. I sincerely asked a question and you go off on a tangent. I do not claim to be an expert on the bible. Why do you keep attacking when I ask questions?
Ron said- “Where in the Constitution does it state that job creation, improving the business economy and reducing debt are the sole responsibility of the President?”
The President and his cabinet drive his agenda and the Democratic Senate walks right with him, i.e. obamacare. Your comment about not blaming Bush is fair, unfortunately your Democratic friends don’t have the same opinion,. They want to blame Bush for everything. However, the Democrats will not take any responsibility for Obama’s actions and decisions. Whenever an issue comes up either Reid, Hillary Clinton or Pelosi etc. say something like ” Well during the Bush years (Insert some wild exaggerated comment) “. With them the buck stops somewhere besides them.
So, if you think that the president shouldn’t have anything to say or do about Jobs, the economy, the nations debt etc. then I would say your wrong.
I have never said he has zero say or influence. The point I was making is that Presidents tend to get either too much credit or too much blame when it comes to domestic issues. They are not dictators. they are still at the mercy of Congress to agree and send a bill to his desk to be signed.
You said, “With them the buck stops somewhere besides them.” I find that interesting because the right blames President Obama for all of our current problems, but blame the Democrats for all of the problems during the Bush Administration.
One of my main complaints of Obama’s critics is that they say things are getting so much worse (without any statistical evidence to support such a claim) and at the same time applaud the Republicans from stopping nearly everything he wants to do domestically since the 2010 election.
Are you going to hold the Republican led House of Representatives accountable at all? They have passed 37 bills to defund the ACA that had NO chance of being signed into law under the current political environment. Talk about government waste. Yes, I hold the same opinion of the Senate for not working with the House on a bipartisan jobs bill.
Why should the Democrats take responsibility for Obama’s actions and decisions when the Republicans will not take any for Bush’s? It goes both ways.
Ron, can you cite me the metrics on when Obama has set an agenda with the State of the Union address in any of the past 4 years where he was incentivizing business to hire new workers? Please don’t run the Stimulus gambit on us since that obviously didn’t work and you know it. I do seem to recall him asking for a tax hike on job creators which he eventually got. Has he actually cut any useless government programs to reduce the deficit? I do remember him passing a healthcare bill with numerous new taxes due to kick in next year. Raising taxes on business, attacking an industry like the Coal Industry is not the way to create jobs and get the economy back. Yes, he and his minions are doing everything wrong to recover the economy. If the right thing was done, we would see a rapid recovery instead of lackluster reports every month on unemployment etc. In December, the economy actually contracted instead of growing. 1 or 2% growth projected annually is not what the American people are looking for. We should be doing 5-6% growth, creating 250,000 or more jobs each month. The 7.6% unemployment rate is a sham which doesn’t count all the unemployed/underemployed that have given up so don’t run that on us either.
You are right Sargeant. Ron seems to blame the Republican House for the economic ills. The President does drive the agenda. He proposed the Stimulus package which spent a lot of money and did not create private sector jobs and was used to pay off his political cronies who supported him. Wouldn’t it be refreshing to see him do a joint session of Congress and actually propose incentives to employers with substantial tax breaks to hire new employees? We do that down here in Texas and it seems to work just fine. Texas is attracting numerous businesses from other parts of the country for the positive business environment, but the left seems to think big government, Keynsian spending policy is the answer. All that theory has been debunked years ago, but they keep believing it. Ron, if you need metrics, try googling Milton Friedman and he will fill you in.
Ron, Let me try to tick down your issues. I have done this before so stay with me, again.
Presidents should take the credit/responsibility bad or good because the buck stops with them. Always has. Harry Truman had a sign on his desk saying “The buck stops here”. Obama pushes his agenda, i.e. Obamacare and he signs bills into law or he vetoes them. He is in lockstep with the Senate so its not necessarily just the Republicans. So he takes credit for Obamacare but no responsibility for Fast and Furious which killed a US Border Patrol agent, Benghazi, Defunding of Social Security, IRS Scandal, the AP scandal etc.etc It seems to me Obama wants what he sees as good news and passes the problems down the hall to someone else.
Ron said- “One of my main complaints of Obama’s critics is that they say things are getting so much worse (without any statistical evidence to support such a claim.
OK Ron, here we go;
UNEMPLOYMENT- Bush years are better Obama- Worse now
Social Security/ Medicare- Better under Bush, Obama pulled $716 Billion out of Medicare to pay for Obamacare and is proposing to continue reducing benefits.
Ron said- “Are you going to hold the Republican led House of Representatives accountable at all? They have passed 37 bills to defund the ACA that had NO chance of being signed into law under the current political environment”
Why would I blame the Republicans for trying to eliminate bad legislation? Have you forgotten it takes Senate approval and the PRESIDENT has to sign off which neither would not do anyway.
lastly let me ask you a question, if you are an independent why do you appear to be defending the democrat position?
Well my post did not seem to take. let me try something different.
Ron said-” One of my main complaints of Obama’s critics is that they say things are getting so much worse (without any statistical evidence to support such a claims).”
First, thank you for putting some effort to supporting your argument. Agent could learn a lot from you, but he probably won’t. I do like how he quickly jumped onto your coat tail. I hope he is not too heavy.
Agent, if you are reading this, do not expect any response from me regarding your posts until you are willing to do some homework, learn basic reading comprehension, support your assertions about my positions, and learn what the term metrics means in terms of statistics.
I am not exactly sure how going from 7.8% unemployment to 7.6% (still unacceptably high) or the fact that we have had net jobs gains every month since October 2010 (still not enough to put a significant dent in unemployment), yet we had net jobs losses each of the last 11 months of President Bush’s administration makes it worse. There is a big difference between not good enough and worse. http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES0000000001?output_view=net_1mth
Regarding the $716 billion out of medicare:
Paul Ryan: President Obama “funneled” $716 billion out of Medicare “at the expense of the elderly.” Aug. 29, at the Republican National Convention
The ruling: Mostly False. The law limits payments to health care providers and insurers in order to spur efficiency and reduce the rapid growth of future Medicare spending. The cuts do not reduce benefits. Those savings, spread out over 10 years, are used to offset costs created by the health law, so that it doesn’t add to the deficit. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/nov/04/greatest-hits-2012-presidential-campaign/
He even gets criticized for being fiscally responsible.
Using your numbers, the Deficit increased 105% under President Bush ($5,674,178,209,886 to $11,909,829,003,511) from 9/01 to 9/09 and 35% under President Obama ($11,909,829,003,511 to $16,066,241,407,385) from 9/09 to 9/12. I am in no way happy about the deficit increasing at any time, but to put this solely on President Obama is disingenuous at best.
In addition, the source you provided is projecting the deficit to continue to shrink under President Obama through 2018. It also displays how the annual deficits under President Bush increased each of his last 3 years. http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html
I agree that the current debt situation is very bad, but the only President to reside over a surplus since LBJ is Clinton. Interesting that we have had 5 Republican and 3 Democratic Presidents since LBJ and only a Democrat oversaw a surplus.
Note: I am not giving President Clinton credit, only stating facts.
You said, “Why would I blame the Republicans for trying to eliminate bad legislation? Have you forgotten it takes Senate approval and the PRESIDENT has to sign off which neither would not do anyway.”
That was my point. Wouldn’t you want them to do something more productive with their time since we are paying their salaries? I do not like how the ACA was passed or everything that is in it either, but there is no way it is going anywhere until there is a new President who is against the legislation and Republicans control both Houses of Congress or there is a veto-proof Congress. Right NOW it is a waste of taxpayer money to try to eliminate the legislation.
I do not see it as defending the Democratic position, I am only providing facts. Both sides spin and if you think otherwise, you are naive.
As far as the debt crisis, The numbers speak for themselves. Obama, biggest spender in the history of the U.S
You said “Just Interesting that we have had 5 Republican and 3 Democratic Presidents since LBJ and only a Democrat oversaw a surplus. t for example, you said- ”
I guess if you are going to blame Bush for Obama’s problems then you must give Bush 1 and Reagan credit for Bill “I never had sex with that women, Ms. Lewinski” Clinton’s good fortune.
You also said ” the source you provided is projecting the deficit to continue to shrink under President Obama through 2018.
If you think that because Obama no longer is spending over 1 trillion a year or more in 2018,then you are a liberal not an independent. Besides that 2018 is 2 years after he leaves office and is a forecast. Look at what he has done and 2013, 14 and 15 and look at what he has done not promised. Sorry, worse under Obama
Lastly, You said- “The law limits payments to health care providers and insurers in order to spur efficiency and reduce the rapid growth of future Medicare spending. The cuts do not reduce benefits.”
You actually believe that statement? Fact, 716 billion was pulled out of Medicare. fact payments will be limited to healthcare providers and insurers, Where do you think at least some of that money makeup will come from? Seniors is my bet. You also believe that they will get future savings. When has a government entitlement program ever saved a “future” dime.
I can’t imagine running a company and telling the board, We just took money out of the pension and healthcare funds but don’t worry we will make it up after I retire, now re elect me Chairman.
You wanted to know what was worse under Obama. I gave it to you and you libbed up excuses. Worse under Obama, point, set and match.
I will concede that deficit by dollars has grown the most under President Obama. There are no facts to dispute that. Will you concede that, regardless of why, President Bush inheritied a surplus then turned it into a deficit? In addition, will you concede that every Republican President since Nixon oversaw a higher deficit than he inherited? http://useconomy.about.com/od/usdebtanddeficit/p/US-Debt-by-President.htm
Please cite where I EVER blamed president Bush for Obama’s problems.
Maybe you learned reading comprehension from Agent. Do you not recall where I stated, “Note: I am not giving President Clinton credit, only stating facts.”
You said,”If you think that because Obama no longer is spending over 1 trillion a year or more in 2018,then you are a liberal not an independent. Besides that 2018 is 2 years after he leaves office and is a forecast. Look at what he has done and 2013, 14 and 15 and look at what he has done not promised.”
What does that mean? So I am a liberal if I cite your source showing that the annual deficit is going down?
Republicans believe that anyone who does not agree with them 100% is a Liberal. I have agreed with you regarding Benghazi, the debt problem, ACA, and a few other criticisms of President Obama. I just think that in the overall picture, he has not handled the difficult situation economically and globally as porrly as you make it out to seem. I have NEVER propped him up as a saviour or thought he could walk on water.
I did not make excuses, just pointed out some additional facts that should be taken into consideration to put your facts into context.
I pulled the statement about the $716 reduction in Medicare from Politifact. It is the closest thing to a non-partisan fact checking site. You will find some statements made by President Obama that were less than truthful or even flat out lies. I thought you Republicans wanted cuts to entitlement programs.
If the country was a company, the only President since LBJ that would not have been fired is Clinton. He is the only one who actually made money for the country.
You’re wasting your breath Ron. Sarge will never concede – ANYTHING. He also criticizes others (ad nauseum) for spelling or grammatical errors and then posts them himself.
I have to say I’m flattered he compared you to me, but I’m sure you would rather not be tainted by association with my name. I’m thinking of changing it to MUDD on here.
July 2, 2013 at 3:40 pm
Agent says:
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Ron, I could care less if you ever respond to my posts. I have plenty on this blog who do like what I have to say. By the way, I do have a degree in Economics and made straight A’s so I do know something about what makes an economy tick, what works and what doesn’t work. You can spout off all your talking points, bring up your government links to show statistics that favor your talking points and it still doesn’t cut any ice with me. You attempted to discount Sargeants links without much success. By the way, Clinton did not balance the budget. Newt Gingrich and the Republican House shut his administration down for a while until he agreed to a balanced budget. That Contract with America worked out real good for the country. It is too bad that subsequent Houses forgot all about that and went back to their wild spending ways. Did you Google Milton Friedman yet? He has been known as the most brilliant economist in the past 50 years. If he were still alive and Obama hired him and went by Free Market principles, we wouldn’t have the debt or the other economic problems we have today.
get off it. I don’t even have to get on this and you would be thumbed down, just like on this blog. I will say it again, you say stupid things that normal people find well, stupid. hat is why you get thumbed down. I don’t really care junior clan member.
I won’t get off it until you do, Sarge. And it’s spelled THAT. If I’m a junior member, it seems you are the imperial wizard since you are the only one between the two of us that has actually been to a klan meeting and knows what goes on there.
Not everyone thinks what I say is stupid. Certainly not the inordinate number reflected by your vote-rigging. Typical Republican tactic. Can’t win the fair way, just cheat. I thought they were supposed to teach you honor in the service. Guess you missed that day.
Libby, why does SGM keep saying West Point as if it’s an insult? I don’t get it.
July 3, 2013 at 12:25 pm
Libby says:
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I spelled West Point wrong in another blog and he keeps reiterating it like I should go turn myself in to the police or something. In the meantime, he makes plenty of spelling and grammatical errors himself. He’s just a big baby.
I noticed you didn’t ask me why I call him a bigot. You’ve probably seen that for yourself.
July 3, 2013 at 1:36 pm
jw says:
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Wow, why am I not surprised? If we all used errors as insults there wouldn’t be any room to post comments.
Yes, I’ve seen the bigot for myself.
July 5, 2013 at 12:28 pm
Libby says:
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:-)
July 2, 2013 at 3:13 pm
draetish says:
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Libby, dont’ flatter yourself, there are plenty of us that thumb you down because of your arrogent, leftist views that are so ridiculous and rude.
And just as many of us thumb you down, too, draetish. But not to this extent. It’s voter tampering and is a well-known tactic of the Republicans. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Exactly, FFA. Sarge is a big baby that gets some kind of thrill out of thumbing me down to such an extreme my posts could never be unhidden. I have one post on here directed only at Sarge that has 76 thumbs down to 16 up (almost more than any other post except at the very beginning.) So I know he is behind the censoring. With all the thumbs down, it only makes people more curious about what I could have said to deserve such a strong reaction. So they tend to read my posts more than they would otherwise. That’s why I keep thanking him.
July 3, 2013 at 3:39 pm
Ellie says:
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Everyone in the house should be fired!! None of them do what they “promise” to do, they get great, state of the art health care and don’t have to pay for it. They are all nothing but crooks.. America, start standing up for yourself! People, you all need to start being accountable for you and your family and stop holding out your hands for help. Get up off your butts and find a job. If everyone would stop having children you can’t afford to have, and be a responsible human being, then prehaps we would not be in the shape we are in now.
Separate payments from their insurance carrier? What is that supposed to mean? Is this so the employer can keep track of who is using contraceptives so they can fire the employee? WTF???
Good question, Libby. People having sex for reasons other than procreation is just a tough notion for some on the religious right to…wait for it…conceive.
Bah-dah-dum. Sex without marriage would be unproductive.
Correction – un re productive.
Not at the Black Hawks Rally Cap???
Whats you Iowa opinion on the draft picks?
Wish I could have been there, that would have been a blast.
The draft, in general, was a weak one. I did like the noise Stern was receiving. He gave a little back right after Chicago’s pick, though. I think the guys Chicago selected are, at the very least, proven 3 point threats at the college level. Snell will have to be patient, playing behind Deng and Butler. Surround D-Rose with a couple shooters, one of which is also gifted with height (Murphy) – sounds promising. I still say The Bulls are one marquis player short. But, I think these picks make the team stronger from the 3 point line. And, as we saw throughout The Playoffs, the 3 point line was crucial for the teams who progressed. On the surface, Gar did well with this draft. What are your thoughts, FFA?
What you morons on the left never seem to understand is the concept of personal responsibility. I really don’t care who or what you have sex with. I just feel that if you don’t want any offspring from your endeavors, that you should be responsible for it, not me. I should not have to pay for your indiscretions. If I take the left’s argument out a little further, any time I go out and have a little too much to drink, YOU should pay for my cab ride home so I don’t put myself and others around me in danger by trying to drive home. But as I said, pushing the nanny state, the whole idea of personal responsibility is totally foreign to you isn’t it?
So what is your opinion on heart meds? How about insulin? Oh, and prozac? Heartburn meds? Any of these could fall under the personal responsibility umbrella, yet they are already covered by health insurance. What makes them so special?
Last I checked, they are subject to Co Pay. So should Birth Control.
I am past my baby making days. I covered Contraception my entire life for me. Now I have to start paying again.
You take heart meds, insulin, prozac and heartburn meds are prescribed for an existing medical condition. Birth control is prescribed to prevent pregnancy, something that could be accomplished without meds by not having coitus.
The government forcing employer sponsored health plans to cover birth control or any other elective medication or surgery oversteps what government should be able to do.
It’s called preventative medicine, Wayne. Look it up. You’ll find it there right next to annual physicals (covered), mammograms (covered), flu shots (covered) and a myriad of other products and procedures.
Seriously jw? When people don’t take heart meds or insulin they can die.
Since I don’t have a need for heart meds, why should my insurance cover them Dave? That’s my point. The people who don’t need birth control appear to be complaining the loudest. Just sayin’.
Dave:
That’s the cornerstone of insurance. The premiums of many pay the losses of a few. Stinks if you are one of the many, but it’s sure nice if you’re one of the few. Sounds socialist, doesn’t it??
Anyway, premiums are cheaper WITH birth control than without – so really that’s not even a valid arguement.
I just wanted to ask Dave what he thinks Crestor is preventing…Maybe if you don’t want a heart attack, stop eating fried foods. Why is it my problem you can’t control your diet (if you are a person on Crestor). Some people do have a pre-existing condition, but even that can be controlled to an extent with diet. Your argument just doesn’t jive. And actually, if women could just take BC without the GOP interfering, we actually wouldn’t be a freaking Nanny State. THINK ABOUT IT!
Actually, FFA, a lot of diabetes medicines are now free and not subject to a co-pay. They give it away….like candy. :)
I shouldn’t say a lot, but I know one of the most prescribed medicines for diabetes doesn’t have a co-pay.
Dave, contraceptives and birth control ARE a means of taking personqal responsibility. Or do you prefer abortions? Maybe you also prefer an increase in the number of children on welfare? You conservative hypocrites are always screaming about the “nanny state” until you need something (e.g. FEMA). Then it’s ok. You don’t have any problem with the “nanny state” forcing women to have an ultrasound (an expensive, invasive procedure), but you have a problem with birth control? Really? And before you say “Well, I don’t think I should have to pay for it”, think about having to pay for the ultrasound. Which one do you think will cost you more?
Shirley, don’t say things about me you don’t know. I don’t support all those things you say. Again, do you feel YOU should pay for my cab ride home anytime I drink too much or anytime anybody else drinks too much?
Dave – your argument about comparing drunk driving to using contraceptives is ridiculous. Who’s the moron on this site now???
Plus he/she said DON’T call me Shirley.
FEMA, Shirley?? NEEDING something like FEMA?? LOL!!! FEMA is BROKE!!! You do make a good point, though. I don’t want to pay for a stranger’s birth control, nor do I want to pay for their abortions. You cannot argue the fact that there are women out there the use abortion AS BIRTH CONTROL.
PC, there are alot of things I don’t want to pay for, too, but unfortunately we don’t get to choose where the money goes.
Dave – even a moron like me knows it is cheaper to provide birth control than to pay for unwanted pregnancies.
http://business.time.com/2012/02/14/why-free-birth-control-will-not-hike-the-cost-of-your-insurance/
It sounds more like you object based more on moral issues since you call having sex an “indiscretion.” Going out, getting drunk, and driving home is illegal. Having sex is not. Yet. Waiting for the GOP to do that next.
Unprotected sex is an indiscretion. Indiscriminate sex (like the poster child bimbo who said she couldn’t afford the annual cost of thousands of dollars for her birth control) is indiscretion. We all should take precautions against things that are dangerous for us (not that pregnancy is dangerous) but who should pay for that protection is the debate you obviously don’t get. How about this Libby? How about we pay for guns and ammunition to help people protect themselves when they live in bad neighborhoods? Where do you draw the line on personal responsibility? Oh, that’s right. As a whacked out liberal you have no concept of personal responsibility. As a whacked out liberal you call for the death of George Bush. Your whacked out beliefs need to be taken with a grain of salt. How can we take anything you say seriously?
Dave – I don’t expect you to take anything I say seriously, as you obviously don’t have a brain in your body. And if you’re not intelligent enough to read my other posts (which obviously you aren’t) you would know that including birth control in health plans LOWERS the cost, no increases it. MORON!!!
Dave, why do you continue to compare things that are not healthcare related? We are discussing what is and is not covered by healthcare. Quit trying to compare what you don’t want covered by insurance to guns, or driving drunk. They are not related – therefore, you cannot create an appropriate comparison.
Libby–what about the women who use abortion as a contraceptive????
Libby, anybody who calls for the death of a prior president is the one who doesn’t have a mind in her body. The beautiful thing about your being so ignorant is that you’re too ignorant to realize it. But feel free to continue with your mindless, violent rants.
What about them?
Dave, I didn’t “call for” anything. Is or is not treason an offense resulting in the death penalty? If yes, why should a former President be exempt from that penaly?
Then why, oh why, do I have to pay for people on diabetes medication, heart disease medication, radiation treatment?
If people were more socially responsible for their bodies, in general, the price of insurance wouldn’t be so high.
I hope you aren’t in personal lines!
What about the parade of electric wheel chairs that you and I buy that show up at all the tea-party shin-digs? Let’s stop buying them, too….right?
More bigotry from Captain Planet.
Huzzah!
Actually Planet, are you aware that the Catholic church (which you claimed and I told you that you were lying, to be a part of)
Has classes which teach you ways to have slightly less of a chance of getting pregnant? They are stupid ways, but they teach it none the less. The religious right is catholics. There are about a billion in the world. Did you just lie or label 1 billion people without knowing better? Go figure. Before you get married in the catholic church they make you have these classes. So if marraige was only about procreation, why would they teach you how to not have kids?
1 billion people is 20% of the world. Churches do not teach that sex is only for procreation. A very small portion of the population does so. But you prefer to focus on the crazies, and then label the entire party.
I’m a republican. I don’t care why people have sex. Most don’t.
I thought the church is against contraception. Why is the catholic church teaching people “how not to have kids”? Isn’t that the whole basis of the Hobby Lobby suit? You can’t have it both ways. Either the church says contraceptives are not allowed or they are allowed. Which is it? Or are they just advocating their form of birth control? Come on, bob, tell me how it is.
these faith based businesses obviously aren’t screening their employees strictly enough. why do they have employees that would commit such an outrageous sin as using contraception? (NOTE: I am not serious)
would be interesting to know the number of employees that are defying their employers principals and are using contraception now. probably somewhere in excess of 80%?
Seems to me that the faith based employers are not denying the right of an employee to use a contraceptive, but instead their faith does not allow them to supply that contraceptive. The use of contraceptive is not the issue. The requirement to support contraceptive when it defies rules of your God is.
But does the bible actually say something about paying for someone else’s contraceptives? I really think that all those rules in the Old Testament were for the believer, not necessarily the believer’s employee. Just a thought.
When the bible was written, there was only one form of birth control – not having sex.
Yeah, coat hangers weren’t invented yet. Yeah, I said it! Thumb me down until I’m censored.
Libby, that would be abortion – not birth control.
Flashing back to my High School History class, first form of birth control was pig intestine with a knot tied in the end.
Abortion is a type of birth control, FFA.
JW,
Thinking along that line. Does the believer have the right to create the direct opportunity for someone to murder another person? Would it be right for the believer to buy a gun for someone that he knows is going to shoot another person? Seems to me, not only would that be a sin, but an intentional act and both would be accused of murder.
PM, seriously? You equate contraception to murder? What kind of f’d up logic is that?
See Aaron Hernandez.
Huh? What does Aaron Hernandez have to do with anything?
Libby,
This much like many of your other comments completely miss the point to grab a tangent and exploit an area that’s unrelated to the topic at hand. I used this example as a reference to is it wrong to enable contraceptives for others from a prior comment.
It’s customary to reply to the post you are referring to so that people know to what you are referring.
PM, I didn’t ask if they had any right to do something illegal. I asked if the bible says believers cannot pay for a non-believer’s contraceptive. Not abortion, just something to prevent getting pregnant. It’s a question because I don’t know the answer.
Aaron Hernandez is a spoiled rich brat that don’t think the rules apply to him. F’n loser!
So I guess they shouldn’t support the public highways that are used to transport those contraceptives from the factory to the store. Are they against firefighters who might be utilized to put out any fires that might occur at a factory or a store that sells contraceptives?
Do the Amish have the right to ignore traffic signals?
We need freedom FROM religion!
Why is it that they mandate birth control but not the thouands of other medications and procedures that are available such as weight loss meds, plastic surgery, vitamin supplements, etc. etc.
Are there other procedures/medications that the bill mandates or just these?
Along with prescribing contraceptives comes annual exams, which will increase the number of healthy women in America. There are also cost savings from avoiding unwanted pregnancies (birth control v. pre-natal, post-natal, and pediatric care.) Could lessen the number of dependants draining government social service programs. There are a myriad of positive benefits reaped by providing what is a relatively low-cost product.
OBama needed to buy the Female vote.
Sounds like a plan!
Why Not, I made my comment above before I read your comment here. (wasn’t trying to steal your thunder) I couldn’t agree with you more.
At some point IJ might start writing about Insurance rather than the left wing social engineering agenda. Seems to be in the tank for Obama and his social justice (“engineering”) programs.
Okay, while I get your point, the ACA is all about insurance. Why wouldn’t it be reported on the IJ?
I wondered what it was like when past empires fell, now I get to experience it first hand….exciting.
The concerning issue for me is that business should be able to offer what they want and not be told what they will offer. Competition for employees should drive what is offered and not offered. Don’t like the employers benefits, go to a competitor that you like or another business.
Frankly I don’t think that either birth control pills or Viagra should be in a healthcare offering.
That makes sense, to a point. It’s not as easy to change jobs as you make it sound. If we had more job openings than job seekers, I would expect the benefits to drive the market. Right now, many are just happy to have an income, benefits are a luxury.
jw,
Good point and is why Obama should focus on job creation and improving the business economy and reducing debt. Do that and employees will have alternatives and competition for employees will be greater, driving wages and benefits. Employees will have more job choices.
Sarge,
Where in the Constitution does it state that job creation, improving the business economy and reducing debt are the sole responsibility of the President? I did not blame President Bush for the economic collapse while he was President for this reason.
I asked this question in a separate blog, please list all of the bills that have been vetoed by President Obama that would have solved these problems.
Hint: The Keystone Pipeline is neither a bill nor is it dead.
I am already aware of the dysfunction and lack of cooperation between the House of Representatives and the Senate.
I should have known you were back, Sarge. I’m being censored again. Way to go!
You not being censored by me. You say stupid things people don’t care for, that’s all. For example, you are the only person I have ever known on this blog to offend every black man in America and post a KKK website link on this blog. Blame me if you like but your the one that makes the comments and the one at the keyboard.
Bullshit Sarge. As soon as you come onto a site, your ratings soar and mine are censored. You also inflate Agent’s and censor Captain Planet’s.
I did not offend any black person by sending you that link. You said you didn’t know of any black people in the KKK, so I showed you they had over 22,000 black members. You kinda have to go to the source to find that kind of stuff out. A simple google search was all I needed. And since you have been harping on me backing up my statements, I provided a link. Big deal.
Get over yourself and just admit you are a bigot. I’ll refrain from racist, since you are obviously of color. But you are a bigot against Mexican immigrants, welfare recipients, women, and gays. The horrible truth and YOU CAN’T HANDLE IT.
You are an idiot- You don’t think posting a KKK website link and taking the information on that site as correct is not offensive to blacks or anyone else for that matter.
You are a racist, an idiot and looks like people know it. W E S T P O I N T.
Is this link less offensive to you, baby cakes?
http://secretsocieties.tribe.net/thread/65bd799c-6d6d-462b-8181-12b45c0c1cb3
I’m not a racist Sarge and there was no racial motivation about me posting that link. I have never been racist and do not intend to start now. You are a bigot, Archie Bunker. Face it.
To further that thought Sarge, I think the Govt should worry about getting their own house in order before they start telling Successful business how to run their house.
Govt has no business sticking their nose into private business.
Two words to DC – BUT OUT!
Right FFA. I haven’t seen any articles on protests from Hobby Lobby or Mardels employees demanding their employer pay for their birth control. Hobby Lobby has won a victory of sorts with their case being heard and they don’t have to pay the big fines in the meantime. This should be a choice of private business whether they offer a benefit or don’t offer it. In any case, the carriers are going to charge for it and it is sure to be reflected in the Group rate. Perhaps the employer can pinpoint the amount of the charge and it could be deducted from the employees check and let’s see how they like it.
Agent – statistically NOT including contraception increases the cost of insurance. Read it and weep:
http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/02/13/cost-contraception-in-insurance-plans-what-data-say/
So maybe the cost savings should be given directly to the employee for NOT including it and they can go out and buy their own.
Agent,
I agree and if the focus is on what drives America- jobs, economic development, debt reduction, border security, dealing with cheap imports and labor then much of America’s problems go away.
This administration has never figured that out. They would rather Tax and spend to win elections
Sargeant, the argument is about “entitlements” and a government forcing employers to provide birth control and fund the increases sure to follow. Perhaps when enough employers drop their coverage entirely and throw the employees into the exchanges, they can then purchase the coverage on their own.
Sargeant, I really don’t think people who are trying to get a job at a company care if a company does not provide birth control to female employees. Most have been doing birth control for years before seeking a new job and have paying for it themselves. If it is that important to them, they can keep looking until they finally find someone willing to pay for it. It is amazing this country has been able to operate at all for a couple of hundred years without paying for all these wonderful benefits. I guess if you are indoctrinated into the entitlement mindset, you think everything should be provided no matter the cost.
Wrong! Agent, why do you insist on speaking of things you have no knowledge of? Most companies already include contraceptives in coverage, as it is cheaper to do so. Not since the mid 90’s has it been otherwise. I am no longer of childbearing age, so I don’t really have a personal dog in this fight. But there are so many other benefits that go along with doing this, not the least of which makes premums lower. Please, please, please give up your invalid argument and choose another one.
LOUD NOISES!!! EVERYBODY SHOUTTING!!!!!!!
Libby said- “Yeah, coat hangers weren’t invented yet. Yeah, I said it! Thumb me down until I’m censored.”
Libby- and you wonder why you are thumbed down? Like I said you say stupid things that normal people don’t like. This on was real dumb. Not as bad as the KKK website and commentary but stupid
Oh brother, Sarge. What was so stupid about it? Nowhere in the bible does it address contraception or abortion. And yes, women did use coat hangers for abortions back in the day before we fought for our reproductive rights. It’s called “Freedom of Choice”. I thought all you GOPers were for individual freedoms. I guess you are until it’s freedom from bigotry, oppression, and hate. Those tenets you stand firmly behind. Good job!
Sarge – I can’t “like” your posts enough. There isn’t a word strong enough to describe just how stupid Libby and Captain Planet are. They both missed world history class. They are anti- God, anti religion and scoff at anything that might be morally upright.
Libby – The Bible certainly DOES address abortion, and very harshly – the punishment for a man causing a woman to lose her unborn child was DEATH(even if he were fighting with another man & it happened by accident). You just spew off and have no idea what you are talking about. Wow, your idiocy compelled me sign up to comment for the first time.
Olivia – where in the bible does it address a woman causing the “death” of her unborn child??? It doesn’t. The woman is the one that is saddled with burden of a child, not a man. She should be the one to decide if she wants to make that choice or not. Not all women have the choice to be impregnated. You must be a man and therefore have no business even speaking about the subject. Case closed.
Libby you are so indoctrinated in feminism that you can’t reason. You’re an embarrassment to women every where. Just how many abortions do you really believe are the result of rape or women having sex against their will?????? There are more than 101,000 babies murdered every day in this country. Are we to think that all those women were impregnated against their will? No, they can’t keep their legs together and you try to take that fact and make it sound as if they are forced to be impregnated. You are one sick puppy and unfortunately there are millions just like you. Elevate man (in your case, woman) and lust, not morality.
Whatever, Perplexed. Fortunately, I live in America where your “religion” can not be forced down my throat. The so-called “moral majority” thinks they have a corner on the morality market and if you stood back and looked, you are the intolerable, condemning, un-Christlike one here. Jesus preached tolerance and love, not hate and condemnation. I am perfectly secure in my beliefs, as it appears you are yours. Let’s just leave it at that.
Perplexed, you didn’t answer the question.
“where in the bible does it address a woman causing the “death” of her unborn child?”
JW – get out a concordance and look at the appearances of “murder” in the bible. You’ll find your answer.
What in tarnations is a concordance?
Read your bible. Your death penalty is not the penalty for death of a fetus that occurred during a fight. Exodus 21:22 “If men shall fight and the collide with a pregnant woman and she miscarries, but there be no fatality, he shall surely be punished as the husband of the woman shall cause to be assessed against him, and he shall pay it by order of the judges.” Miscarriage is not the same as a fatality, since the verse deals only with the situation where there is a miscarriage and NO FATALITY.
And Sarge, I will tell you this only one more time. You are bigoted, censoring, piece of S*it.
Libby,
You must have been looking in a mirror as you typed that. Did you have a bad time at the clan rally this past weekend?
I told my friends this weekend that I was a racist according to you. That got the biggest laugh and loudest applause of the whole night. Thanks for the party fodder. It’s very amusing.
I am not surprised by the laughter Libby. No one at a clan rally thinks they are racist.
Sarge,
So how many clan rallies have you been to?
Now that it’s been brought up, I’m curious what scripture spefically prohibits contraceptives.
Again, I’m asking because I don’t know the answer.
It doesn’t.
JW,at the risk of throwing gas on this firestorm, read Exodus 21:22-15 and Psalm 139:13-16 regarding abortion. I have seen Psalm 127:3-5 quoted regarding opposition to contraception.
For real? Someone has a huge imagination if they think those passages have anything with what we are talking about today.
jazzeelady, thanks for replying. I was able to read the passages (I’m in a red state – LOTS of people in my office have bibles at their desks). I can see the connection in Exodus 21:22. Not so sure about the Psalms. I’m going to check this out further. My curiosity has been peaked. Anyway, thanks for actually answering and not attacking my ignorance of all things bible.
The language about a life for a life, an eye for an eye, etc. never meant literally what you think it means. Otherwise blind people would be exempt from any penalty if they poked out a seeing person’s eye!!! And anyway, this verse is only referring to a situation where there is a miscarriage due to men fighting and colliding with a pregnant woman AND THE PREGNANT WOMAN DIES.
JW – scripture doesn’t mention contraceptives – it does mention a man spilling his seed but not in the context you’re looking for.You obviously haven’t read too much or sincerely wondered what God’s commands are. If you did you’d find that fornication, adultery, murder are all covered. God is a God of mercy and judgment. He isn’t mocked. You sin at your own risk. He has given us all free will. It’s up to us what to do with it.
Wow, talk about pushing the envelop. I sincerely asked a question and you go off on a tangent. I do not claim to be an expert on the bible. Why do you keep attacking when I ask questions?
Ron said- “Where in the Constitution does it state that job creation, improving the business economy and reducing debt are the sole responsibility of the President?”
The President and his cabinet drive his agenda and the Democratic Senate walks right with him, i.e. obamacare. Your comment about not blaming Bush is fair, unfortunately your Democratic friends don’t have the same opinion,. They want to blame Bush for everything. However, the Democrats will not take any responsibility for Obama’s actions and decisions. Whenever an issue comes up either Reid, Hillary Clinton or Pelosi etc. say something like ” Well during the Bush years (Insert some wild exaggerated comment) “. With them the buck stops somewhere besides them.
So, if you think that the president shouldn’t have anything to say or do about Jobs, the economy, the nations debt etc. then I would say your wrong.
Sarge,
I have never said he has zero say or influence. The point I was making is that Presidents tend to get either too much credit or too much blame when it comes to domestic issues. They are not dictators. they are still at the mercy of Congress to agree and send a bill to his desk to be signed.
You said, “With them the buck stops somewhere besides them.” I find that interesting because the right blames President Obama for all of our current problems, but blame the Democrats for all of the problems during the Bush Administration.
One of my main complaints of Obama’s critics is that they say things are getting so much worse (without any statistical evidence to support such a claim) and at the same time applaud the Republicans from stopping nearly everything he wants to do domestically since the 2010 election.
Are you going to hold the Republican led House of Representatives accountable at all? They have passed 37 bills to defund the ACA that had NO chance of being signed into law under the current political environment. Talk about government waste. Yes, I hold the same opinion of the Senate for not working with the House on a bipartisan jobs bill.
Why should the Democrats take responsibility for Obama’s actions and decisions when the Republicans will not take any for Bush’s? It goes both ways.
Right now, BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG.
That is why I’m an Independent.
Ron, can you cite me the metrics on when Obama has set an agenda with the State of the Union address in any of the past 4 years where he was incentivizing business to hire new workers? Please don’t run the Stimulus gambit on us since that obviously didn’t work and you know it. I do seem to recall him asking for a tax hike on job creators which he eventually got. Has he actually cut any useless government programs to reduce the deficit? I do remember him passing a healthcare bill with numerous new taxes due to kick in next year. Raising taxes on business, attacking an industry like the Coal Industry is not the way to create jobs and get the economy back. Yes, he and his minions are doing everything wrong to recover the economy. If the right thing was done, we would see a rapid recovery instead of lackluster reports every month on unemployment etc. In December, the economy actually contracted instead of growing. 1 or 2% growth projected annually is not what the American people are looking for. We should be doing 5-6% growth, creating 250,000 or more jobs each month. The 7.6% unemployment rate is a sham which doesn’t count all the unemployed/underemployed that have given up so don’t run that on us either.
You are right Sargeant. Ron seems to blame the Republican House for the economic ills. The President does drive the agenda. He proposed the Stimulus package which spent a lot of money and did not create private sector jobs and was used to pay off his political cronies who supported him. Wouldn’t it be refreshing to see him do a joint session of Congress and actually propose incentives to employers with substantial tax breaks to hire new employees? We do that down here in Texas and it seems to work just fine. Texas is attracting numerous businesses from other parts of the country for the positive business environment, but the left seems to think big government, Keynsian spending policy is the answer. All that theory has been debunked years ago, but they keep believing it. Ron, if you need metrics, try googling Milton Friedman and he will fill you in.
Ron, Let me try to tick down your issues. I have done this before so stay with me, again.
Presidents should take the credit/responsibility bad or good because the buck stops with them. Always has. Harry Truman had a sign on his desk saying “The buck stops here”. Obama pushes his agenda, i.e. Obamacare and he signs bills into law or he vetoes them. He is in lockstep with the Senate so its not necessarily just the Republicans. So he takes credit for Obamacare but no responsibility for Fast and Furious which killed a US Border Patrol agent, Benghazi, Defunding of Social Security, IRS Scandal, the AP scandal etc.etc It seems to me Obama wants what he sees as good news and passes the problems down the hall to someone else.
Ron said- “One of my main complaints of Obama’s critics is that they say things are getting so much worse (without any statistical evidence to support such a claim.
OK Ron, here we go;
UNEMPLOYMENT- Bush years are better Obama- Worse now
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000
DEBT- Bush wins. Better than Obama and Obama still has 2 1/2 years to go and the debt is at 17 TRILLION
This chart does not include 2013 or the forecast for the rest of Obama’s second term and the debt is now at 17 Trillion
Date Dollar Amount
09/30/2012 16,066,241,407,385.89
09/30/2011 14,790,340,328,557.15
09/30/2010 13,561,623,030,891.79
09/30/2009 11,909,829,003,511.75
09/30/2008 10,024,724,896,912.49
09/30/2007 9,007,653,372,262.48
09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_debt_chart.html
Credit rating- Bush Better than Obama. During Bush administration the country had a AAA+ credit rating
http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/10/news/economy/sp-u-s-credit-rating/index.html
Social Security/ Medicare- Better under Bush, Obama pulled $716 Billion out of Medicare to pay for Obamacare and is proposing to continue reducing benefits.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/14/romneys-right-obamacare-cuts-medicare-by-716-billion-heres-how/
Ron said- “Are you going to hold the Republican led House of Representatives accountable at all? They have passed 37 bills to defund the ACA that had NO chance of being signed into law under the current political environment”
Why would I blame the Republicans for trying to eliminate bad legislation? Have you forgotten it takes Senate approval and the PRESIDENT has to sign off which neither would not do anyway.
lastly let me ask you a question, if you are an independent why do you appear to be defending the democrat position?
Well my post did not seem to take. let me try something different.
Ron said-” One of my main complaints of Obama’s critics is that they say things are getting so much worse (without any statistical evidence to support such a claims).”
Here you go:
UNEMPLOYMENT- Worse under Obama
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000
DEBT- Worse under Obama
http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/us_deficit
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm
Social Security/ Medicare- Worse under Obama
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/14/romneys-right-obamacare-cuts-medicare-by-716-billion-heres-how/
How is that Ron?
It looks like you have given Metric Ron plenty of metrics Sargeant. I am sure he will have some of his leftist metrics to try to refute your argument.
Sarge,
First, thank you for putting some effort to supporting your argument. Agent could learn a lot from you, but he probably won’t. I do like how he quickly jumped onto your coat tail. I hope he is not too heavy.
Agent, if you are reading this, do not expect any response from me regarding your posts until you are willing to do some homework, learn basic reading comprehension, support your assertions about my positions, and learn what the term metrics means in terms of statistics.
I am not exactly sure how going from 7.8% unemployment to 7.6% (still unacceptably high) or the fact that we have had net jobs gains every month since October 2010 (still not enough to put a significant dent in unemployment), yet we had net jobs losses each of the last 11 months of President Bush’s administration makes it worse. There is a big difference between not good enough and worse.
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES0000000001?output_view=net_1mth
Regarding the $716 billion out of medicare:
Paul Ryan: President Obama “funneled” $716 billion out of Medicare “at the expense of the elderly.” Aug. 29, at the Republican National Convention
The ruling: Mostly False. The law limits payments to health care providers and insurers in order to spur efficiency and reduce the rapid growth of future Medicare spending. The cuts do not reduce benefits. Those savings, spread out over 10 years, are used to offset costs created by the health law, so that it doesn’t add to the deficit.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/nov/04/greatest-hits-2012-presidential-campaign/
He even gets criticized for being fiscally responsible.
Using your numbers, the Deficit increased 105% under President Bush ($5,674,178,209,886 to $11,909,829,003,511) from 9/01 to 9/09 and 35% under President Obama ($11,909,829,003,511 to $16,066,241,407,385) from 9/09 to 9/12. I am in no way happy about the deficit increasing at any time, but to put this solely on President Obama is disingenuous at best.
In addition, the source you provided is projecting the deficit to continue to shrink under President Obama through 2018. It also displays how the annual deficits under President Bush increased each of his last 3 years.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html
I agree that the current debt situation is very bad, but the only President to reside over a surplus since LBJ is Clinton. Interesting that we have had 5 Republican and 3 Democratic Presidents since LBJ and only a Democrat oversaw a surplus.
Note: I am not giving President Clinton credit, only stating facts.
You said, “Why would I blame the Republicans for trying to eliminate bad legislation? Have you forgotten it takes Senate approval and the PRESIDENT has to sign off which neither would not do anyway.”
That was my point. Wouldn’t you want them to do something more productive with their time since we are paying their salaries? I do not like how the ACA was passed or everything that is in it either, but there is no way it is going anywhere until there is a new President who is against the legislation and Republicans control both Houses of Congress or there is a veto-proof Congress. Right NOW it is a waste of taxpayer money to try to eliminate the legislation.
I do not see it as defending the Democratic position, I am only providing facts. Both sides spin and if you think otherwise, you are naive.
Ron, Wow you are almost as uninformed as Libby.
As far as the debt crisis, The numbers speak for themselves. Obama, biggest spender in the history of the U.S
You said “Just Interesting that we have had 5 Republican and 3 Democratic Presidents since LBJ and only a Democrat oversaw a surplus. t for example, you said- ”
I guess if you are going to blame Bush for Obama’s problems then you must give Bush 1 and Reagan credit for Bill “I never had sex with that women, Ms. Lewinski” Clinton’s good fortune.
You also said ” the source you provided is projecting the deficit to continue to shrink under President Obama through 2018.
If you think that because Obama no longer is spending over 1 trillion a year or more in 2018,then you are a liberal not an independent. Besides that 2018 is 2 years after he leaves office and is a forecast. Look at what he has done and 2013, 14 and 15 and look at what he has done not promised. Sorry, worse under Obama
Lastly, You said- “The law limits payments to health care providers and insurers in order to spur efficiency and reduce the rapid growth of future Medicare spending. The cuts do not reduce benefits.”
You actually believe that statement? Fact, 716 billion was pulled out of Medicare. fact payments will be limited to healthcare providers and insurers, Where do you think at least some of that money makeup will come from? Seniors is my bet. You also believe that they will get future savings. When has a government entitlement program ever saved a “future” dime.
I can’t imagine running a company and telling the board, We just took money out of the pension and healthcare funds but don’t worry we will make it up after I retire, now re elect me Chairman.
You wanted to know what was worse under Obama. I gave it to you and you libbed up excuses. Worse under Obama, point, set and match.
Sarge,
I will concede that deficit by dollars has grown the most under President Obama. There are no facts to dispute that. Will you concede that, regardless of why, President Bush inheritied a surplus then turned it into a deficit? In addition, will you concede that every Republican President since Nixon oversaw a higher deficit than he inherited?
http://useconomy.about.com/od/usdebtanddeficit/p/US-Debt-by-President.htm
Please cite where I EVER blamed president Bush for Obama’s problems.
Maybe you learned reading comprehension from Agent. Do you not recall where I stated, “Note: I am not giving President Clinton credit, only stating facts.”
You said,”If you think that because Obama no longer is spending over 1 trillion a year or more in 2018,then you are a liberal not an independent. Besides that 2018 is 2 years after he leaves office and is a forecast. Look at what he has done and 2013, 14 and 15 and look at what he has done not promised.”
What does that mean? So I am a liberal if I cite your source showing that the annual deficit is going down?
Republicans believe that anyone who does not agree with them 100% is a Liberal. I have agreed with you regarding Benghazi, the debt problem, ACA, and a few other criticisms of President Obama. I just think that in the overall picture, he has not handled the difficult situation economically and globally as porrly as you make it out to seem. I have NEVER propped him up as a saviour or thought he could walk on water.
I did not make excuses, just pointed out some additional facts that should be taken into consideration to put your facts into context.
I pulled the statement about the $716 reduction in Medicare from Politifact. It is the closest thing to a non-partisan fact checking site. You will find some statements made by President Obama that were less than truthful or even flat out lies. I thought you Republicans wanted cuts to entitlement programs.
If the country was a company, the only President since LBJ that would not have been fired is Clinton. He is the only one who actually made money for the country.
You’re wasting your breath Ron. Sarge will never concede – ANYTHING. He also criticizes others (ad nauseum) for spelling or grammatical errors and then posts them himself.
I have to say I’m flattered he compared you to me, but I’m sure you would rather not be tainted by association with my name. I’m thinking of changing it to MUDD on here.
Ron, I could care less if you ever respond to my posts. I have plenty on this blog who do like what I have to say. By the way, I do have a degree in Economics and made straight A’s so I do know something about what makes an economy tick, what works and what doesn’t work. You can spout off all your talking points, bring up your government links to show statistics that favor your talking points and it still doesn’t cut any ice with me. You attempted to discount Sargeants links without much success. By the way, Clinton did not balance the budget. Newt Gingrich and the Republican House shut his administration down for a while until he agreed to a balanced budget. That Contract with America worked out real good for the country. It is too bad that subsequent Houses forgot all about that and went back to their wild spending ways. Did you Google Milton Friedman yet? He has been known as the most brilliant economist in the past 50 years. If he were still alive and Obama hired him and went by Free Market principles, we wouldn’t have the debt or the other economic problems we have today.
Sarge, I’m so flattered you think my posts important enough to censor them. It only makes people more curious about what I am saying. Thanks!
Libby,
get off it. I don’t even have to get on this and you would be thumbed down, just like on this blog. I will say it again, you say stupid things that normal people find well, stupid. hat is why you get thumbed down. I don’t really care junior clan member.
I won’t get off it until you do, Sarge. And it’s spelled THAT. If I’m a junior member, it seems you are the imperial wizard since you are the only one between the two of us that has actually been to a klan meeting and knows what goes on there.
Not everyone thinks what I say is stupid. Certainly not the inordinate number reflected by your vote-rigging. Typical Republican tactic. Can’t win the fair way, just cheat. I thought they were supposed to teach you honor in the service. Guess you missed that day.
WEST POINT
BIGOT
Libby, why does SGM keep saying West Point as if it’s an insult? I don’t get it.
I spelled West Point wrong in another blog and he keeps reiterating it like I should go turn myself in to the police or something. In the meantime, he makes plenty of spelling and grammatical errors himself. He’s just a big baby.
I noticed you didn’t ask me why I call him a bigot. You’ve probably seen that for yourself.
Wow, why am I not surprised? If we all used errors as insults there wouldn’t be any room to post comments.
Yes, I’ve seen the bigot for myself.
:-)
Libby, dont’ flatter yourself, there are plenty of us that thumb you down because of your arrogent, leftist views that are so ridiculous and rude.
And just as many of us thumb you down, too, draetish. But not to this extent. It’s voter tampering and is a well-known tactic of the Republicans. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
I am surprised that so many people put so much effort and thought in the thumbs up / down. Whats the point of “rigging the results”.
Exactly, FFA. Sarge is a big baby that gets some kind of thrill out of thumbing me down to such an extreme my posts could never be unhidden. I have one post on here directed only at Sarge that has 76 thumbs down to 16 up (almost more than any other post except at the very beginning.) So I know he is behind the censoring. With all the thumbs down, it only makes people more curious about what I could have said to deserve such a strong reaction. So they tend to read my posts more than they would otherwise. That’s why I keep thanking him.
Everyone in the house should be fired!! None of them do what they “promise” to do, they get great, state of the art health care and don’t have to pay for it. They are all nothing but crooks.. America, start standing up for yourself! People, you all need to start being accountable for you and your family and stop holding out your hands for help. Get up off your butts and find a job. If everyone would stop having children you can’t afford to have, and be a responsible human being, then prehaps we would not be in the shape we are in now.