Poll Finds Skepticism But Suggests Healthy Young Adults May Keep Obamacare Afloat

September 10, 2013

  • September 10, 2013 at 12:57 pm
    jw says:
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    Oh, hey, look, another Obamacare article.

    • September 10, 2013 at 2:24 pm
      Agent says:
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      Aren’t we lucky? This one should be good for 300 comments.

      • September 13, 2013 at 11:47 am
        jw says:
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        Three days and we’ve hit 168. Might get to 200, what do you think?

  • September 10, 2013 at 1:37 pm
    Libby says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    Encouraging news. I am optimistic!

    • September 10, 2013 at 1:41 pm
      Captain Planet says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      Indeed, Libby. If the plan is needing 2.7M and in could actually gain 8M young applicants, that certainly exceeds expectations. We will need to wait, of course. And, don’t be surprised when the negative crowd arrives. This is a poll Sean Hannity will not agree with, so it will be dismissed by the likes of you know who when they finally start to comment.

      • September 10, 2013 at 3:59 pm
        bob says:
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        Planet,

        You talk as if the negative crowd is limited to republicans.

        And again, this coming from someone who claims to be a moderate.

        You critique republicans often in a negative way, is that just not negative because you are “right”.

        You really are arrogant beyond belief.

        • September 10, 2013 at 4:11 pm
          Libby says:
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          Not speaking for Captain, but since he doesn’t respond to you I thought I’d take the liberty. I don’t believe he was referring to Republicans in general, but specific people on this blog that have been very vocal in their disapproval/negativity about Obamacare.

          And again, I don’t recall him saying he is a moderate. Only an independent. And he did admit to voting for GWB the first term (Shame on you, Captain!).

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:26 pm
            bob says:
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            Libby,

            He has claimed he was a moderate.

            Moving on the the negativity: I’m linking two statements he makes about republicans, as he clearly believes we are the party of “no”

            Moving onward: He didn’t vote GWB. On that he’s a liar. I asked him what plans he favored that would cause him to vote GWB. He had none.

            He has never stated a conservative ideal he agrees with. Until he does, he’s getting this slap across the face on every comment.

            Being untruthful to appear moderate enough to win arguments is not an appropriate method of debate. It is however his method of appearing a moderate.

          • September 11, 2013 at 7:33 am
            jw says:
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            bob, what part of “Captain doesn’t respond to you” do you not understand?

            You can ask him if the sky is blue and he won’t answer.

            No matter how many times you “asked him what plans he favored that would cause him to vote GWB” he won’t respond. Claiming “He had none” doesn’t mean anything because HE WON’T REPLY TO YOU.

            What is with you and saying someone is lying? You are allowed to not believe, but there is no way you can KNOW someone is lying unless YOU WERE THERE TOO.

          • September 11, 2013 at 10:12 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            Libby,
            You are right, I’ve never claimed to be a moderate but I am registered Independent. You are also correct, I was referring to several specific individuals who typically engage in some conversation out here in IJ Land. You are again right, I don’t respond to Bob. I also don’t read what he writes. Mainly, because I don’t care in the least bit what he has to say. He lost my respect many, many posts ago.

            I know, voting for George W was a mistake. I wasn’t a Bill Clinton fan at the time and was ready for a change in The White House. I couldn’t stand the thought of our President cheating on his wife in the Oval Office. I now look at Bill Clinton in similar lights as I do Michael Jordan. A great politician and a great basketball player but an awful husband.

          • September 11, 2013 at 10:41 am
            Libby says:
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            No argument on the Clinton front here. But I do think his marriage had it’s perks for both parties. After all, Hillary may be our next Commander in Chief. That would make me very, very happy as she was my candidate in 2008.

          • September 11, 2013 at 1:47 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            Libby,
            It sure would be yet another great step forward for America. Going from first African-American President to the first female President. I don’t know which candidates Republicans or Independents will have running, but as of now, Hilary receives my vote. Especially if we’re talking about opponents such as Ted “The Canadian” Cruz (can he even run?), Rand Paul, and Rick Santorum (whose last name will never be looked at the same again). If Mr. Huntsman were to receive the nod, depending on whether or not he is co-opted by the Tea Party nutbaggery, I would have to give him some serious thought. He seems to be the only sane one left in the Republican Party these days. That party doesn’t even resemble what it used to be, sadly.

        • September 10, 2013 at 5:36 pm
          Agent says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          Bob, everyone on this blog knows all about Planet and his left wing stances. He is also well known for very goofy comments like ding, ding, ding, ding. I don’t think his overall comments are dissing Republicans, but also includes anyone who is Conservative. I don’t identify as a Republican anymore, but I am a Conservative and there actually are some conservative Republicans out there. I wonder how many conservative Democrats or Independents there are. We might be able to count them on our fingers.

          • September 11, 2013 at 10:45 am
            Libby says:
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            Conservative. Republican. You say tomato and I say tomato.

        • September 12, 2013 at 3:31 pm
          Agent says:
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          Bob, Planet is only slightly less arrogant than Libby or Ron. Did you see that ugly post and criticism of Ronny holding a football up in the Oval Office? He was probably tossing it to a coach of the National Championship team. I am sure glad Planet is in Iowa and not in Texas. I may be older, but I would like to put a dent in his behind.

          • September 12, 2013 at 4:12 pm
            Ron says:
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            Agent,

            I would much rather be considered arrogant for providing facts, statistics and data, all while citing my sources, than someone who has poor reading comprehension, puts words in other people’s mouths, and labels others without evidence.

            All you ever provide is empty rhetoric, baseless crtiticism and poll numbers. I am constantly asking you for other sources of data beside government sites, but you do not provide anything.

            You want to talk about arrogant, how about when Bob belittles Libby, Planet and myself? I actually agree with several of his points, but he loses credibility when he insults others. There is a certain decorum that goes with debating that he does not possess.

          • September 13, 2013 at 11:13 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            Agent,
            Who is the arrogant one? You want to put a dent in my behind? C’mon, man, you and I have seen eye-to-eye on some things. You really want to literally kick my arse? I may be younger, but I can take that physical challenge (just kidding, totally kidding – I have absolutely nothing against you). We don’t typically agree politically, but that’s okay. Being able to debate issues is just one of many freedoms that makes this country so great. Debate needs to come with compromise in order to actually get things done, though. That’s how it works in my house and that’s how it should work in The White House, too. The obstruction needs to go. And along with it, members of Congress from both sides.

          • September 13, 2013 at 11:14 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            By younger, I mean younger than you. Wish I could go back to my upper teens and early 20′s. The hairline looked much better way back then.

    • September 10, 2013 at 1:47 pm
      Dave says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      Of course, after drinking the Obama Kool-Aid for the past 5 years you believe everything he feeds you. Like Benghazi was the result of a video. Like I’m going to attack Syria with or without congressional approval. Like, wait a minute, I will do it after I get congressional approval. Oops, wait a minute again, I will just follow the peace accord my “good buddy” Putin has put together with Syria and not attack. Wait again……

      Just keep on drinking that Obama Kool-Aid Libby.

      • September 10, 2013 at 2:36 pm
        Agent says:
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        Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

        • September 10, 2013 at 2:47 pm
          Libby says:
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          Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

          • September 10, 2013 at 2:56 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            Libby,
            Agent doesn’t understand the 3 dimensional chess President Obama is playing on this one. Agent has Obama Derangement Syndrome and no matter what he does, it’s always the wrong action. I am on record saying if President Obama decides to attack Syria, it’s the wrong decision. I will not and do not support those military efforts. Support those who actually have to fly over? Yes, of course. Support the decision to bomb away – no way!

          • September 10, 2013 at 3:06 pm
            perplexed says:
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            Someone’s spending an inordinate amount of time disliking posts by Agent and Dave. You guys really riled the libs today.

          • September 10, 2013 at 3:16 pm
            Libby says:
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            I don’t know about you, Perplexed, but I can only like or dislike once a day.

          • September 10, 2013 at 3:20 pm
            Libby says:
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            Captain: I, too, am against an attack on Syria and do not think that was Obama’s plan in the first place. But he stood strong and saved face when necessary only to set up a graceful way to bow out. Brilliant!

          • September 10, 2013 at 3:45 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            I agree, it is brilliant. And, he made Congress actually work and debate to boot.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:03 pm
            bob says:
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            I’m sorry,

            Obama did not plan to make Syria plans of attack public in order to make Syria stand down.

            You are aware that Russia and Iran both publicly stated that we were arrogant for saying it and they darn near wanted to start a war for it. They called us arrogant, and said we don’t have anything to stand on after Iraq.

            Obama got lucky. Easy as that. It was not “out foxing” anyone. He nearly got those countries mad enough to start a war and that is not an opinion. Stating “I’ll do it, I’ll bomb you, so help me god!” is not a method of stopping a war. It is not diplomacy.

            Diplomacy and out foxing them would be a lot more like:

            Hey guys, your people didn’t like that, I don’t like that, why don’t we get rid of those weapons?

            Obama never called for Syria to get rid of the weapons. He called for them to be punished for crossing a line. That again is not a method of diplomacy.

            You’re a liberal. Act like it. Stop making fantasies of what you believe happened, and get your head out of this president’s butt.

            Now on an interesting note: I’m also glad nothing is happening in Syria.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:22 pm
            Libby says:
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            Well, Bob, I don’t think you know what Obama was thinking any more than I do. And if you recall, all our allies were clamoring for us to take a stand and respond. He did – without actually doing anything. I happen to give him way more credit than you do.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:28 pm
            Ron says:
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            bob,

            All you ever care about is methodology, not results. Do I agree with how President Obama handled Syria? Absolutely NOT. Am I happy with the result? I am satisfied with how it currently stands.

            But you will always find a way to take credit from President Obama or any other Democratic President credit and place it in the hands of Republicans, whether they deserve it or not.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:32 pm
            bob says:
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            Libby:

            The UN flat out rejected any strike to Syria, even if they used chemical weapons with the exception of France.

            Are you lying or are you just this indoctrinated?

            Stating you will strike a country is not a method of diplomacy. The end result was:

            We will get rid of our chemical weapons (mostly from Russia saying they should) and Obama as a result said as long as they admitted they did it he would not bomb them.

            You’re trying to state that was his end goal? Both ha, and ha.

            If Obama from day one said, or meant to say, if you get rid of your weapons and admit you did in fact bomb your own people with chemical weapons I will not strike you, he would have said it. He definitely would not have said they need “consequences” and that they need to be “punished”. He would have talked about “disarming” them. This is what Clinton did I might add when we bombed Iraq. At no point did Obama state to Syria that they needed to solely disarm. He stated they needed consequences and to be punished.

            You’re making a darn stretch and you know it. You also know you’re wrong, but are such a delusional partisan voter you don’t see it.

            While you can say that you nor I know what he intended, you already said what he intended. So coming back and saying that comment is really immature Libby and you know it.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:38 pm
            bob says:
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            Ron,

            I’m glad now you’re saying I’m all about the facts and methodology after prior saying that I’m not. Some inconsistency is showing, and your inability to debate is showing Ron. I’m glad, because you are one of the last fraudulent moderates on this site. It’s why I don’t like you.

            Now I’m glad you made the comment about presidents, because you have no evidence on that whatsoever. I have said mostly in this page that Bush W is attacked too much, and Obama gets too many free passes.

            Obama is a bad president, and does deserve credit for QE, Twist, the stimulus, the debt we are mounting, the deals he backed out on (he is now trying again to say he wants 1 dollar of tax increases for 3 dollars of cuts. He has done that each of the last 4 years of his presidency and each of the last four years has been 1 trillion dollar deficits. Bush W did not lie about his budgets each of his 8 years). I do not vaguely insult Obama. I do give credit for his embryonic stem cell research funding, as well as other areas I like. That being the case doesn’t mean all democrats are “the worst”. I do not praise all republicans. I have quite publicly given my opinion on Boehner. However, I have stated my reasons why I don’t vote democrat right now and they are valid. What I said above is valid as well.

            Stop the fraudulent “I’m balanced” crap. I don’t see you list anything you liked about Bush W, and I very much doubt you knew about how the democrats blocked his new types of retirement plans that were a fact good. If you can name what they are I will believe you are balanced. There are 3. Name the types, what they did, how they worked, and tell me you knew about them for all of the last 8 years.

            I care about what can be done to help this country. Right now, the biggest help we can have is that democrats get tossed off their high horse so that maybe, maybe, they will come back to prior high standards.

          • September 10, 2013 at 5:23 pm
            Agent says:
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            You can cheer Obama on all you want, but his credibility is in the toilet and Putin has handed him his head. I would have respected him more had he insisted that Syria turn over their chemical stockpiles or face the consequences. He didn’t do that and you know it.

          • September 10, 2013 at 5:28 pm
            Agent says:
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            Libby, Obama didn’t outfox anyone that possesses a brain. He naively stated 13 months ago that chemical weapons use would be a Red Line for him. Now, he has come out and said it was Congress’s Red Line or the rest of the world’s Red Line and tried to blow it off. Then, he said he didn’t need the authority of Congress to do something and then changed to say he would seek Congress approval. He wasn’t getting anywhere on that front since 70% of the people said no and Congress wasn’t going to vote for action either. He was very lucky that Putin threw him a bone to stop the attack. I expect Putin to get the Nobel Peace Prize now since he actually proposed something to head off another disaster.

          • September 10, 2013 at 8:15 pm
            Ron says:
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            bob,

            Congratulations!! Just when I thought no one’s reading comprehension is worse than Agent, you proved me wrong.

            All I said was, “All you ever care about is methodology, not results.” How did you get, “I’m glad now you’re saying I’m all about the facts and methodology after prior saying that I’m not.”? I said NOTHING about you being about facts. I do not count any facts without a cited source.

            The only thing I ever see President George W Bush attacked for on this site is the Iraq War. I have merely pointed out some of the results during his administration. If you do not know the difference, then you are hopeless.

            I NEVER said I was a moderate. Just like Captain, I am an Independent. You and Agent are too closed minded to understand that there are many, many people who do not identify themselves as a Democrat, Republican, Liberal or Conservative. We are the smart people who do not follow any party or ideology blindly. We actually listen to both sides and make up our own minds using facts, not rhetoric.

            Grow up and stop insulting people with whom you do not agree.

            BTW, I like you regardless of our differences of opinion.

          • September 13, 2013 at 10:16 am
            Agent says:
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            Keep on drinking that Kool Aid Libby. Your President has painted himself into a corner. Assad just said that we must stop arming the rebels or we don’t get the Chemical weapons. They aren’t going to give up anything and Russia and Iran back them all the way. Maybe we need yet another red line drawn.

          • September 13, 2013 at 10:29 am
            Ron says:
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            Agent,

            I am assuming that you have renounced your citizenship and moved out of the country since you do not recognize President Obama as your President. Who exactly is your President now?

          • September 13, 2013 at 5:54 pm
            Agent says:
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            Yes Libby, you and the audience on MSNBC are about the only ones who think Obama outfoxed everyone. I am sure Putin thought he was outfoxed as well.

        • September 11, 2013 at 7:40 am
          jw says:
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          What does his approval rating matter, anyway? I’m just curious why this is even a talking point. I don’t like him, don’t get me wrong, but he’s in his second term. He can’t be elected again, so whether or not anyone approves of him is rather irrelevant.

          • September 11, 2013 at 9:13 am
            Ron says:
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            Because those are the only “statistics” Agent has to show that President Obama has destroyed the country.

          • September 11, 2013 at 2:17 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            Because it’s what Drudge and Sean Hannity focus on every day.

      • September 13, 2013 at 5:00 pm
        Agent says:
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        Planet, how has that compromise been working out for the country in the past nearly 5 years? On the left, compromise means that Conservatives have to go along with the left’s program or else. We have to just reach across the aisle like McCain & Graham have been doing to get things done. Please cite one example of a Progressive Democrat who has compromised to adopt a Conservative idea or program. Do any of them ever consider a tax break to give to Small Business so jobs can be created? Not! Only tax increases are considered and more and more spending to add to the national debt. When Progressives change their mind and realize the error of their ways, that will be the kind of action I would approve of, but it will be a very cold day in July before that ever happens.

  • September 10, 2013 at 1:38 pm
    Libby says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    Imagine how boring IJ will be once Obamacare is a smashing success!

    • September 10, 2013 at 1:43 pm
      Captain Planet says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      Oh, there will always be those that deny its success. Look at the climate-deniars. The Creationist Museum actually has a dinosaur saddle.

      • September 10, 2013 at 1:52 pm
        Dave says:
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        Captain, and just look how successful Social Security and Medicatre are. Both bankrupting the country. And Obamacare is based on the pedestal of 10 years of taxes supporting 6 years of benefits, what happens after that? Funny how you speak of deniers.

        • September 10, 2013 at 2:07 pm
          Captain Planet says:
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          Dave, you think Social Security is going bankrupt? Do you understand how Social Security actually works?

          http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2011/04/08/why-social-security-cannot-go-bankrupt/

          • September 11, 2013 at 4:02 pm
            LiveFree says:
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            I read the article you posted and that is the most ignorant explanation of SS I have ever heard! Good laugh though so thanks! The amount of assumptions he made to simply SS are ridiculous and not even close to accurate.

          • September 12, 2013 at 8:58 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            LiveFree,
            Then dispute it. Otherwise, you’re just voicing your opinion (which you are certainly entitled to).

          • September 12, 2013 at 9:22 am
            Libby says:
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            I found it to be an interesting perspective on the issue.

          • September 12, 2013 at 10:55 am
            LiveFree says:
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            I actually was just stating my opinion although I do have my own thinking to dispute the article and support my opinion. I didn’t want to write a long comment before but since you invited me the opportunity (and I have nothing better to do haha)to explain my opinion I might as well seize it.

            The entire premise that SS can’t go broke is ridiculous to me. It should be obvious to anyone that any business or government program can go bankrupt if their future cash flows and revenues will no longer cover future obligations, accounting 101. How is SS any different?

            The author of the article, Harvey,assumes too much. He assumes productivity will always be high enough to support the number of retirees. In periods of high unemployment you would need to raise taxes or reduce benefits or do both. You cannot just turn up the productivity when needed.

            The author also talks about the trust fund and how it’s just extra collected money (as if it is good that we are getting over taxed). Regardless, I don’t see how having a couple trillion saved up in trust helps when you have obligations totaling close to $100 billion. But then that is probably why the govt is borrowing to pay for the program and is continuously running a deficit. (Here are two sources, one from 2010 and one from this year.)

            http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/15-last-25-months-treasury-needed-borrow-money-pay-social-security-benefits

            http://www.heritage.org/~/media/Images/Reports/2013/05/ib3952_chart1_825.ashx

            The author then tries to create an escape route to his theory by saying that, as I briefly mentioned before, it is all predicated and a function of productivity… So I would like to know where this sudden increase in productivity would come from because, if he knows something the government doesn’t, maybe he should be in Washington. For close to a decade now manufacturing jobs have been decreasing drastically and those are the backbone of true productivity and wealth creation. So in theory its all nice and good but in reality not even close to practicable.

            Also to complicate things further, $2.7 trillion of the that trust fund surplus, that isn’t enough to cover obligation, has been replaced with government bonds which would need to be redeemed in order to continue to finance the benefits with the fund. But since the Fed has been so generous to our government in printing money so it could finance it’s activities I predict this (among other deficit factors) will just add to the incentive for an inevitable period of hyperinflation that could last awhile. (or until we have sound money but that’s a whole other argument)

            The author also assumes that their will always be enough workers to support the retirees or enough productivity from the workers, as he is adamant in clarifying. But when the baby boomers start collecting how can he be sure their will be enough workers or production. But as I alluded to before increases in production do not just come from pulling a level and even if every worker was at 100% productivity couldn’t the needs of retirees still outweigh what is being produced? Therefore using his own math in his own example if there were instead 3 workers and 7 retirees then the workers would be giving up 70% and keep 30% so that each gets 30%. I don’t think many workers would like that math very much. Why work for 30 cents on the dollar?

            If you really dissect his entire theory that SS can’t go bankrupt he is saying SS can’t go bankrupt as long as we can afford it aka as long as productivity of workers can pay for retiree benefits… which ipso facto also means if/when we can’t afford SS then it will go bankrupt. So his conclusion to his own theory just doesn’t make any sense.

            That is my dispute.

          • September 12, 2013 at 11:11 am
            LiveFree says:
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            Captain,

            I actually took you up and wrote a very long dispute to the article earlier this morning but it didn’t post for some reason! Ugh well I don’t feel like wasting another couple hours of my life but so shorten my response to a just my conclusion, the author makes way too many assumptions about productivity and the availability to increase it at a whim. His whole argument is that he claims that SS can not go bankrupt yet he says it’s all a function of productivity. So if you really think about he is saying SS cannot go bankrupt as long as we can pay for it or in other words the workers productivity can afford the retirees benefits. But ipso facto that means that if worker productivity can’t afford retiree benefits than SS will go bankrupt. Therefore his own conclusion to his own argument doesn’t even make sense which is why it seems ignorant to me.

            I wish my first post went through! I went into great detail about the trust fund, the trust fund surplus, the SS deficit (with sources btw lol) and my spin on his 10 survivor example but oh well. Maybe it will still post somehow haha.

          • September 12, 2013 at 11:45 am
            Libby says:
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            LiveFree – you can email IJ and they have someone that can go in, find it, and post it.

          • September 12, 2013 at 11:58 am
            Libby says:
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            “It should be obvious to anyone that any business or government program can go bankrupt if their future cash flows and revenues will no longer cover future obligations, accounting 101. How is SS any different?”

            I think the whole premise of his theory is that there are no “future obligations” only present obligations. If there is not enough productivity to meet present obligations (current workers paying current retirees) then he says either taxes need to be increased or benefits decreased. But the system does not go “bankrupt.”

            At least that was my take on the article.

          • September 12, 2013 at 12:45 pm
            LiveFree says:
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            Thanks Libby! I was about to write IJ but it actually did get posted! Weird that it took so long, might have been reviewed first or something.

      • September 13, 2013 at 5:57 pm
        Agent says:
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        Did that post take you all day to dream up Planet? Do you ever wonder why no one takes you seriously? By the way, the Global Warming people just can’t explain why the Polar Ice Cap has not gone away as they predicted for this year. As a matter of fact, the ice cap has expanded which show a trend of global cooling instead of warming which has been going on for eons and is cyclical.

    • September 10, 2013 at 1:49 pm
      Dave says:
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      • September 10, 2013 at 3:23 pm
        Libby says:
        Hot debate. What do you think?
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        Murdering Bush would be a waste of a bullet at this point.

        • September 10, 2013 at 4:04 pm
          bob says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          That kind of hate is absolutely not acceptable.

          Go to therapy for your Bush W issues.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:23 pm
            Libby says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            Well, it would be. His damage is already done.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:44 pm
            bob says:
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            I’m not debating the Bush W arguments with you again.

            You’re wrong about Iraq, which democrats did take part in, agree with, and are getting free passes on.

            Do you not get that Iraq has a similar affect on me, only I see your side getting free passes all around?

            Do you think I defend Iraq because I love Bush, is that it?

            I saw your side stand up passionately voting for this war. Al Gore, Hillary Clinton. I saw Bill Clinton “lie” about WMD’s in his tenure. We all love him.

            My fear comes in what the democrats can get away with, and my primary goal is to assess Iraq as it should be.

            Perhaps you don’t see it because I’m far too harsh on democrats by comparison to republicans here, and that’s because they NEED it. If you keep on giving your guys free passes so long as they aren’t republicans, you will never give your guys power away.

            If you can’t see the power a democrat in office has currently over a republican you’re insane. It needs to be ended.

          • September 12, 2013 at 12:53 pm
            Agent says:
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            Libby, your GW hate is eating your insides and you really need to cool it. The Islamic countries hated Bush for what he did in Afghanistan and Iraq, but they respected the power of the Presidency of the US. Now, they hate us even more under your President and there is no respect or credibility at all. Would you rather be hated and respected or hated and not have any respect from these countries?

          • September 12, 2013 at 1:40 pm
            Ron says:
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            Agent,

            Until you renounce your citizenship and move, whoever holds the office of President of the United States is YOUR President too, period.

          • September 12, 2013 at 3:43 pm
            Libby says:
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            Agent – my Dubya hatred, as you call it, is not affecting me in the least bit and I will never cool it when it comes to that idiot. You’re wasting your breath.

          • September 12, 2013 at 3:52 pm
            Patti Cake in the East says:
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            Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

          • September 12, 2013 at 4:17 pm
            Ron says:
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            Patti,

            Please list the things that Liberals, of which I am not, have done to this beautiful country.If you are stating a fact, please provide a source. If you are going to state your opinion, please preface with, “in my opinion”.

          • September 13, 2013 at 5:59 pm
            Agent says:
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            Bob, hell hath no fury like a Libby scorned. She should be on the FBI watch list for threatening a President.

        • September 12, 2013 at 3:06 pm
          Patti Cake in the East says:
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          Libby…that’s a disgusting post from someone who is so anti-gun. You should be ashamed of your hypocritical self.

  • September 10, 2013 at 1:46 pm
    Rusty says:
    Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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    Libby: Don’t count the chickens yet. The proof will be “in the pudding’ as time marches on. There are plenty of problems already materializing and for the law to work, it needs a lot of healthy people. Meantime, large groups of covered people are getting waived out of ObamaCare so their healthy people won’t be supporting less healthy people who are insured under the plan. My concern is that government always underestimates costs and ObamaCare will be no exception. We’ll see what happens as the cost rises and more taxes will be needed to carry the program. It won’t be so “affordable” to the average American then.

    • September 10, 2013 at 1:59 pm
      Captain Planet says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      I will gladly pay more in taxes so every American who wants it can have access to insurance. Just like, I gladly pay more in taxes locally so we can have road maintenance, excellent schools (which we do), good public services like libraries (which we do), great emergency response (which we do), etc., etc., etc. I live in one of the highest taxed zip codes in the Des Moines area and it shows.

      • September 10, 2013 at 3:06 pm
        Nan says:
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        Spoken like a true American!

      • September 10, 2013 at 3:51 pm
        TxLady says:
        Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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        Our government allows you to pay more taxes if you so choose, so feel free to send in your additional contribution.

        • September 10, 2013 at 5:03 pm
          Agent says:
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          I don’t know about you TxLady, but I am having to send my 9-15 quarterlies in and it galls me how my hard earned tax money is so subject to waste and corruption. If Planet and Libby had to cough up what I do, perhaps they might have to change their attitude.

          • September 11, 2013 at 9:42 am
            Libby says:
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            Wah. Crybaby. You made the decision to own your own business. Deal with it and quit bellyaching about it. Otherwise, close up shop and move on. We’re tired of you thinking you are somehow better than the rest of us because you are a “boss.” You wouldn’t even have taxes to pay if it weren’t for your hard-working employees. Show some respect.

          • September 11, 2013 at 2:09 pm
            FFA says:
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            I am with you agent. I know part of what I send in is coming out of my employees pockets too. For what? Send $1.5B to Egypt? Money to Jordan?

          • September 12, 2013 at 2:08 pm
            TxLady says:
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            When I see what some of the mney is spent on that we pay to the government, it makes me cringe. Wether you are a small tax payer or a large one,I think we can all agree that the U.S. government just loves to waste money.

          • September 12, 2013 at 3:58 pm
            Dave says:
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            Remember where Libby is coming from. She is calling for the execution of George Bush. You need to take ANYTHING she says with a grain of salt. She is truly whacked out.

          • September 13, 2013 at 5:47 pm
            Agent says:
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            Libby, there is a good reason why you are an employee and not an owner. I can’t think of a single market that would want to take you and your mouth. Had you been paying attention to what I said, it was a rail about government, not my business which is good. I am tired of supporting a government which is terribly wasteful with my tax dollars and discourages small business with excessive taxation and causing small business more grief with each passing week. If they were even close to operating with any efficiency and weren’t spending so wildly, I don’t have a problem paying my taxes. Since they aren’t, I have a right to complain about them.

      • September 10, 2013 at 4:13 pm
        bob says:
        Hot debate. What do you think?
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        More money isn’t what the schools need, and while you would gladly pay it, the middle class would suffer for it.

        We need to as Americans, lower costs of living to the lowest amount possible, and increase efficiency.

        As an example:

        Lessened class days. No child can absorb 8 hours of school unless it is being done incorrectly.

        4 hour days. Teachers can have two schooling sessions, two classes of kids in one day. Modify the work in class to keep up pace. Again, 8 hours is not needed and actually removes motivation from our children. They have full 5 days of 8 hour school days and 1 hour homework and nothing that is of substance in their life (motivation) were someone to keep you hostage for 8 hours a day, it would have psychological damage.

        Separate classes for kids who can’t keep up with the 4 hour schedule of schooling. Most kids will be able to.

        Budget would be cut about in half. Amount of brick and mortar schools needed would be cut in half (now everyone in a district can go to the same school but different times and crowding won’t be an issue).

        The answer to our problems is to stop relying on taxing and money to solve problems.

        The government is far too big and out of reach. There’s a problem when you say “I’ll just send my kid to a school to be owned for 8 hours a day! That won’t affect them (and me!).” and you think it’s perfectly okay for 13 years, 40 hours a day, 1-2 hours of homework each day. That is 45 hour weeks. It’s slave labor, worse with the mental affect.

        Worse, we have parents who cannot even get shopping into their schedule with 2 working parents. What does that cause? Obesity. Congratulations, everyone is eating at mc donalds, why? Higher taxes and funding for schools to become far to bloated and inefficient.

        And you liberals, always so prideful on “public education” simply say “we need more money for teachers!” “we need more government!”.

        No. We don’t. This is but one example how you guys are just plain idiotic. You actually think more taxes will make the excellent schools better. It won’t.

        It is American to want to be efficient, to actually do the math on survival, what is best for you, and for others, to see the numbers, rather than simply trying to write a check to make the problem go away. Would you take that same route with your children? Write a check to make it go away? You must have been a bad parent.

        • September 10, 2013 at 4:31 pm
          Libby says:
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          Wow! You really made a leap from “prideful liberal” to “bad parent”. Just because someone said they would gladly pay more taxes for better schools does not automatically mean they are for higher taxes and bigger government. You have a real problem leaping to conclusions based on one statement.

          And I don’t know one school kid that goes to school for 8 hours. It’s more like 6. And many schools do exactly what you propose, yet budgets are still bloated. The problem is the huge salaries of school administrators and them not being accountable for where the money goes.I want some say on WHERE my tax dollars go. I don’t have that.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:47 pm
            bob says:
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            Libby,

            It’s not a stretch to say that throwing money at schools would go to parenting.

            Moving on: Schools are not 6 hours during teenage years especially.

            Moving on: No public schools do what I just said. None. List one. 4 hour school days, doing two school days in 1 day. It would cut the costs.

            I went to a Washington state school. It happens to have some of the best scores in our state. I know schooling programs. Do you have a kid attending currently?

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:48 pm
            bob says:
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            And I might add Libby:

            I do know enough about Planet to know he’s a horrible liberal. This is not about all liberals. It’s about him.

            This is not me attacking the world. It’s him. And he deserves it. He’s trash.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:53 pm
            Libby says:
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            I attended a school just like you are describing. It was during my middle school years. In 7th grade I had the 7:00 to 12:00 and in 8th grade I had the 12:00 to 5:00. It was a public school on an Air Force base.

            And saying you would be willing to pay more taxes to improve schools is not the same thing as saying you want to “throw money” at them. It is only saying what you, personally, would be willing to do/sacrifice to make a better education for children. Obviously, paying increased taxes for little or no result is not what we want to do. Use your head instead of your emotions.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:54 pm
            Libby says:
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            And I happen to find Captain one of the most respectful and courteous (not to mention hilarious) posters on this site. He does not call people trash or idiots or any of the things you do.

          • September 10, 2013 at 5:00 pm
            bob says:
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            Libby,

            Not in those words. But he certainly makes comparison to people who are against abortion as to zealots.

            I don’t attend church. I’m against abortion.

            He certainly states the “naysayers” like a snobby brat.

            I don’t need elitist forms of insults. He is not respectful.

            You live in Colorado correct? We do not do what you just said in WA. I might add, I have stated I prefer purple states. Your state is probably like that due to having a different breed of people. I’m actually glad there are people like that, as I’m assuming that means you actually agree with what I said should be done.

            Which is just odd. Since we don’t tend to agree. But I’ll take it as a good sign.

          • September 11, 2013 at 9:46 am
            Libby says:
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            Bob, I have said before we probably agree on more than not but because you tend to begin or end your posts with a personal insult, I do not respond well to you. When we have a civil and respectful exchange, it usually goes pretty well.

        • September 10, 2013 at 5:09 pm
          Agent says:
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          Bob, I have two grandchildren who are in private school. They have very flexible hours and only attend actual classroom 4 hours a day and for only 4 days a week. The curriculum is advanced and they are so far ahead of the public schools in achievement, it is ridiculous. Both are at least two years ahead of the typical public school student. My granddaughter has won two essay contests and received scholarship money for them. They are expected to achieve and they do. I am very proud of them.

          • September 11, 2013 at 11:42 am
            Ron says:
            Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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            Agent,

            It is great to hear that your grandchildren are doing so well. My children also go to private school and are also excelling. Unfortunately, not all parents have the resources to afford a private education and others do not put education as a high enough priority and do not help their children to succeed. However, that is not the child’s fault. In addition, many parents need to work full time and sometimes multiple full time jobs just to get by without additional expenses. What should they do when their children go from a 6 or 8 hour a day/5 day week to 4 hours a day/4 days a week? Do they work less or take on the additional expense of day care?

            That is one of the problems I have with some of the positions of Republicans. They think everyone has the same resources and/or opportunities as they do and it is laziness that has put people in their situation. Sometimes that is true, but usually not.

            We need to provide the best public schools possible to give ALL children, regardless of background, a chance to be successful.

    • September 10, 2013 at 2:38 pm
      Libby says:
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      Rusty: I find it amusing that most of the naysayers on this issue fail to grasp just how the program is to work. Private carriers are the ones setting costs and providing coverage. Considering these private carriers are in the business of making a profit and they have ALOT of smart people crunching the numbers (which is all they do) and they have come to the conclusion they can make money by entering into the exchange system, I will connect the dots and draw my own conclusions.

      • September 10, 2013 at 3:04 pm
        Nan says:
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        Libby, you are right on. The health insurance industry (and their stocks) have been gearing up for this for 2 years. They see $$$ in the years ahead. Besides, most of us Americans were raised with the understanding that it was our obligation to purchase health insurance AND life insurance when we left home. Personal responsibility so you would not be someone’s burden. It’s only the free loading teaparty (a/k/a/Freedom Works) who are howling. I’m pretty sure THEIR families have health insurance.

        • September 10, 2013 at 5:34 pm
          FFA says:
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          They are guaranteed a profit. Why on earth would they not be on board with this?????

          • September 11, 2013 at 9:47 am
            Libby says:
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            That’s the American way, isn’t it?

          • September 11, 2013 at 1:44 pm
            FFA says:
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            That’s the purpose of a business – To Turn A Profit.

            What gets me is why so many people begrudge business owners for doing well for themselves.

          • September 11, 2013 at 1:50 pm
            Libby says:
            Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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            FFA – I do not begrudge anyone that works hard anything. What I have an issue with is the Wall Street fat cats that rape, pillage, and plunder with no remorse or consequences. There is a BIG difference between a $350,000 a year businessowner or business person and a $350M CEO, banker, financial advisor, etc. that gets a hefty bonus even after he bankrupts his company and the American people. I would assume most people have an issue with that. They should be stripped of all that money so it can be returned to it’s rightful owners.

      • September 12, 2013 at 1:10 pm
        Agent says:
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        So Ron, you couldn’t resist taking another shot at Republicans, could you. Tell me, why do Democrats resist giving vouchers so kids can attend good schools that actually teach something and relegate so many to failing schools populated by union infested teachers who don’t teach the skills needed to succeed? More funding for public schools is not the answer or it would have worked before now. Substandard teachers who cannot be fired for incompetence is rampant. Ask FFA about the Chicago schools sometime. Ask Sargeant about the Detroit school system.

        • September 12, 2013 at 1:53 pm
          Ron says:
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          Agent,

          I did not take a shot at Republicans, onlt pointed out one of my criticisms.

          You will have to ask a Democrat why they are against vouchers to allow kids to go to the school of their choice. I actually support that program, if implmeneted correctly to allow ALL children from ALL socioeconomic backgrounds a realist opportunity to attend the school of their choice without aditional economic resources. My only concern is that those who already have the means to send their child to a private school would benefit, but leave less funding to support schools in areas where they are already struggling.

          I am not saying we need to increase funding for public schools, but taking money away will definitely make things worse. I think “No Child Left Behind” was a failure because it put too much emphasis on rating schools and eachers based on standardized tests and less on improving the effectiveness of teachers.

          • September 13, 2013 at 11:08 am
            Agent says:
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            Ron, the reason why public schools are failing all across the country is the lack of accountability both with the schools and the parents who have no interest in helping their child achieve and insist that homework be done. Some of it may be that many kids are from broken homes and the single parent cannot handle it. The success stories of kids from broken homes are few and far between. That is why the story of Dr. Ben Carson is so amazing. His mother couldn’t even read, but she made sure he could and made sure he excelled in school. He ended up being a renowned Neurosurgeon. For every Dr Carson story, there are thousands of failures who result in poverty, crime and welfare which is self perpetuating from generation to generation.

        • September 12, 2013 at 1:58 pm
          Ron says:
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          Agent,

          One more thing, do you honesty believe that all people start on a level playing field and have the same opportunities to succeed?

          • September 12, 2013 at 3:46 pm
            Libby says:
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            Yes, he does. The old “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” rhetoric.

          • September 12, 2013 at 4:04 pm
            Patti Cake in the East says:
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            Libby–I’d rather pull myself up by my own old boot straps than have a government program pull them up for me.

          • September 12, 2013 at 6:06 pm
            FFA says:
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            I believe that everyone has the same chance to succeed. Founder of Dominos Pizza was raised in an orphanage. Now he is one of the Fat Cats that people so despise… Why? He saw a product that was needed and he delivered it.. All born out of a casual observation of human nature.
            People are grumpy when they are hungry. Get them food faster, they wont be so grumpy. Of course, it trashed insurance rates for everyone in the food delivery sector, but I can get my pizza within 30 minutes…

          • September 13, 2013 at 9:19 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            And, what if there are circumstances outside of your control. For example, you were denied healthcare due to a pre-x. You then go bankrupt trying to treat your condition. What do you do then? Can you cook and eat those bootstraps?

          • September 13, 2013 at 10:07 am
            FFA says:
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            Cap, that is one of the circumstances that I believe Govt Assistance should be for. A helping hand, not total support. Not the lazy a#@ that just stick their hand out and take advantage.

          • September 13, 2013 at 11:03 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            FFA,
            I have been on record before agreeing with that notion. Those that are literally not trying and are dead beats should not continue to receive benefits. I believe you would find that is a very small percentage of Americans, though. It’s not like you can live the high life through government handouts alone. Most people want more than to live in poverty. If one is doing nothing else but taking the handout are certainly living in poverty. Most people are driven.

          • September 13, 2013 at 11:15 am
            Agent says:
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            No Ron, but this country has been known for giving everyone an opportunity if they work hard and get educated. I didn’t have two nickels to rub together growing up and I worked numerous jobs, got educated with a degree, got into business and I count myself as successful owning my own business the past 20 years. I did it without government assistance, my family didn’t put me through college or give me a new car for graduation or give me an allowance. There are millions of examples of people who started out in humble circumstances who advanced themselves by hard work and living the American Dream. It is too bad that they are considered evil by many including some in this forum. They are the job creators and should be revered, not slammed.

          • September 13, 2013 at 12:00 pm
            jw says:
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            Patti Cake in the East says: Libby–I’d rather pull myself up by my own old boot straps than have a government program pull them up for me.

            I want to say something rude and completely unacceptable, but I won’t, this time. What you prefer and what you have to do are not always compatable. Do not slam getting help from the government; you may have to eat those words some day.

          • September 13, 2013 at 12:08 pm
            Ron says:
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            Agent,

            I have not seen one comment on this forum that anyone said they considered job creators evil. You may have taken it that way, but you have already displayed an ability to misinterpret many comments by Captain, Libby and myself. You think that anyone who is not 100% Conservative on every issue is a liberal, left-leaning, or a RINO. I recall you even criticizing Senator Rubio for supporting immiration reform.

  • September 10, 2013 at 2:00 pm
    PM says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    Help me understand.
    1. I thought BO care was raising the cost for younger adults to help offset the cost of older adults.
    2. How can the majority of younger adults that will get insurance via a subsidy help with the cost of older insureds?
    3. How does a penalty as low as $95.00 out-weigh the cost of taking insurance with annual premiums over $1,000.

    This article leaves a ton of open questions and leads the reader to believe more without providing details. The truth of the process is about to hit the fan and that’s going to smell worse than BO.

    • September 10, 2013 at 2:43 pm
      Libby says:
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      PM, please refer to the above. Oh, and educate yourself on the law.

      1. BO is not setting the rates – for ANYONE.
      2. The subsidy goes to the insurance carrier as part of the premium.
      3. $95 is the MINIMUM penalty. It is $95 or 1% of your annual salary, whichever is greater. This penalty will rise to $695 or 2% of your salary by 2016.

      If you make $40,000, your penalty will be $400. If you can purchase insurance for as low as $60 per month that equals $720-$400=$320 per year ($26.67 per month.) Not even a fraction of a cellphone bill. And for that $26.67 you get all preventative care for free. PAP smears, mammograms, colonoscopies, physicals, etc. That sounds like a bargain to me.

      • September 10, 2013 at 3:22 pm
        Libby says:
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        P.S. Those penalties are revenue to the federal government which can be used to offset some of the subsidy payments.

        You guys don’t give Obama or Democrats enough credit. That’s because you always think you are the smartest guys in the room. Oh wait! That was Enron, wasn’t it?

        • September 10, 2013 at 5:49 pm
          FFA says:
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          No, it was Arthur Anderson. They knew how to cook books…
          Are they doing the accounting on this too?

          • September 11, 2013 at 9:48 am
            Libby says:
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            FFA – there was a book about Enron titled “The Smartest Guys in the Room”.

          • September 11, 2013 at 2:16 pm
            FFA says:
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            Seems to me the Arthur Anderson let Enron take the bullet while they were standing in the shadows.
            I’m a little hack with AA because that had an impact on my clients and pounded the local economy in my neck of the woods from the dry cleaner to the bowling alley not to mention the vacant office space. That one hit real close to home.

          • September 11, 2013 at 2:51 pm
            Libby says:
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            AA just signed the papers, FFA. It was all Enron, all day. Another example of corporate greed and the rich getting richer on the backs on the middle class. All those employees and customers that invested their hard-earned money into that ponzi scheme called Enron made a few people very, very rich. They’re no better than bank robbers or pirates.

          • September 11, 2013 at 3:19 pm
            FFA says:
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            Enron was using AA Accounting methods. AA was supposed to be auditing their books and turned the blind eye.

            They both got what they deserved. Came at a high price in my neck of the woods.

          • September 12, 2013 at 7:17 am
            jw says:
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            Arthur Anderson was just as culpable as Enron. The problem was the AA auditors were hamstrung by the AA consulting division. AA made its money in consulting fees and didn’t want the auditors to piss off the consultant’s client.

          • September 12, 2013 at 12:10 pm
            FFA says:
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            JW, that was my point exactly, I just didn’t get it in type written form like you did.
            AA hit my neck of the woods hard. Had an indirect impact on my revenues.

          • September 12, 2013 at 12:59 pm
            Libby says:
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            I agree AA was involved, but they were but a pawn in Enron’s ponzi scheme. If not AA, they would have gotten some other accounting firm to sign off on their shenanigans. Enron was the mastermind and they stole billions of dollars.

            Many people in AA were duped as well. In fact, their guilty verdict was overturned by the Supreme Court.

            The book about it was fascinating and laid it all out in easy-to-understand language.

          • September 12, 2013 at 3:38 pm
            Agent says:
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            Hey FFA. As a follower of golf, I noticed that the PGA Tour is coming to your neck of the woods for the BMW Championship at Conway Farms Golf Club in a suburb of Chicago. I take it that is on the far north side well away from all the trouble, right? I will be glued to my TV this weekend between football games to see how this plays out since it is pro golfs playoffs.

          • September 12, 2013 at 5:45 pm
            FFA says:
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            Yes, Lake Forest – Home of Hallas Hall. One of the most Wealthy Burbs quite possibly in the entire country.
            More of the Fat Cats up there then any where else in IL. Medinah is actually closer to me then that is. Forget trying to drive around there when the PGA is in that town.

        • September 12, 2013 at 6:07 pm
          FFA says:
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          They are not penalties. Per the Supreme ct they are taxes…

      • September 10, 2013 at 4:04 pm
        PM says:
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        Libbs,

        Time will tell. I’m not debating the point. What I do know is that BO Care is coming soon. The super low costs with super high deductibles are the same as not having insurance. If all you can afford is the highest deductible plan, the level debt you would have after a loss is just as unaffordable as not having insurance.

        We’ll learn the impact soon. I’m prepared for BO care to be great, although I firmly believe it going to be a catastrophe. You want it to be great, but are you prepared for it to be a catastrophe? Are you prepared to wait to get into the doctor when you or your child is really sick so all of the preventive care listed above is given to hundreds at your doctor? These are retorical questions, don’t answer.
        Before you decide I’m evil, these services are available at county health for all and have been for at least 50 years.

      • September 10, 2013 at 4:17 pm
        bob says:
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        This is why I was upset when you didn’t inform D he was incorrect in the last post. As I said, you do know better.

        As a side comment: The premiums themselves are expected to go up considerably without the subsidy which is a problem.

        At some point this bill would become unaffordable, and you’re not the one who would be paying for it.

        • September 10, 2013 at 4:49 pm
          Libby says:
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          I’m not sure what you are referring to when you say I know better. About what?

          Are you saying the bill will be unaffordable or that the insurance will be unaffordable? There’s a difference.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:57 pm
            bob says:
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            No. I’m not talking about this post.

            There was another when D straight out called agent out stating that Agent didn’t know what he was talking about when he compared the subsidy to medicare.

            He actually claimed there was no subsidy. You replied stating that Of course agent doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

            You could have corrected D and told him how the subsidy works. You clearly know. I know. I responded to D stating he needs to know the law he defends so much.

    • September 10, 2013 at 5:37 pm
      FFA says:
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      Confusing huh??? Try gong through the training materials.

      Another thing that’s confusing – how did Syria come into play on this topic?

      Another thing confusing – why did my land lord tell me I cant put sinage up for Obama Care? Answer – He is worried that someone will vandalize the building as there is plenty of Anti Obama people in my neck of the woods. The other tenants hate this thing and don’t even want to be in the same building…..

      • September 11, 2013 at 8:00 am
        jw says:
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        I almost commented on how many minutes it took to get off topic in this thread. Thanks for throwing that one out there. I figured if I said it, my comment would be hidden in no time. ;)

        Good luck with the training materials. Sounds like you might need it.

        • September 11, 2013 at 9:52 am
          Libby says:
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          As always, Agent (the troll), threw it out there to start some sh*t. And we took the bait. Shame on us!

          • September 11, 2013 at 1:47 pm
            FFA says:
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            Not hard to bait the hook in the IJ, that’s for sure.

  • September 10, 2013 at 3:28 pm
    IJ Reader says:
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    “At the same time, a majority are expected to qualify for government subsidies to purchase coverage based on income.”

    “When young adults who initially told Reuters they are unlikely to buy insurance learn for the first time about government subsidies for doing so, many re-thought their position.”

    Young adults won’t keep Obamacare afloat, taxpayers will. A prior article run on Insurance Journal indicated up to 85% of the uninsured young will qualify for a subsidy. Of course they may consider it if someone else is footing part or the majority of their bill. Handouts not handups, typical ill planned bloated government thinking.

    • September 10, 2013 at 3:41 pm
      Libby says:
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      They won’t qualify for subsidies forever, IJ. They will grow out of them and the penalty will increase to a level where it no longer makes sense to opt out and pay the tax. Remember, those penalties will be used to offset the subsidies. Now! Enough with the doom and gloom!

      • September 10, 2013 at 4:21 pm
        bob says:
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        The majority of the young won’t grow out of it. Families have 3 kids on average. The median household income is $50,000 per year if you go on the higher end of studies. They would still be eligible for the subsidy.

        You’ve looked at the tiers. Put together the math Libby.

        The concern that republicans actually have with this bill is people making $100-$250k a year. They wouldn’t get a subsidy and their health care bills will be that full $20,000 per family of 5, plus 30-50%. Those are the people who start businesses. That’s where the concern is.

        The first step Stalin took in his power trip was doing away with the upper middle class, and made a middle class that all needed government assistance.

        Right now we have a lot of that happening. It’s worrisome. It’s why republicans are thinking we might tank.

        • September 10, 2013 at 4:35 pm
          Libby says:
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          Bob – I don’t think it’s government that is responsible for the death of the upper middle class. It is de-regulation and corporate greed. The rich get richer and everyone else suffers. The disparity between classes is larger than it has ever been in this country. And it’s not because of the government.

          • September 10, 2013 at 4:54 pm
            bob says:
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            Libby:

            Everything you just said was cliche.

            Let’s address it one by one:

            Does a larger gap between the rich and poor (exists from the rich having more money left over from not paying more taxes) mean the poor are poorer? No. If we take enough away eventually they would have equal money, technically. Would that mean that poor people would have more money? Well,

            That gets me to item two: When we take more from the rich, do we have more to give to the poor? Let’s compare: 95% top rate during FDR: 20% of the GDP in revenues. 39.6% top rate during Clinton: 20-21%. So how exactly is taxing more going to remove that gap? The tax rate is less than half and the revenues are equal. Taxing more would make the gap look smaller by taking more from the rich, but that would not mean the poor would have more. Why? Well, we couldn’t give more through government programs, as we would still have 20-21% of GDP in revenues. See the problem?

            Moving on to corporate greed: CEO’s make about 1% of their company’s earnings on average. Look up papa john’s. Look up CEO’s. This is almost always true. This means if you took all the greedy Corporate CEO’s money, you would have too small of an amount of money to pass it around.

            Corporations avoiding taxes does not equate to lower incomes for middle class Americans. On the other side, taking money from a corporation increases the cost of their product.

            Also: The middle class expansion during that lower tax rate was higher than that of FDR. Which means the lower tax rates help the middle class as well.

            The higher the cost of living (directly affected by tax rates) the more help is needed. This is why tax rates being higher obviously don’t help.

            De regulation does not harm the middle class. I want an example, not a cliche. How?

          • September 11, 2013 at 9:58 am
            Libby says:
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            Bob – I’m not talking about taxes. I’m talking about Wall Street. Banking deregulation led to the near-collapse of our economic system. CORPORAT greed (not just CEO’s) is what fueled the, albeit creative, ponzi-like financial deals that everyone knew could not be self-sustaining. But they did them anyway. Why? Because they all made a ton of money. And when our economy tanked, they took that money and bought up property and other assets for pennies on the dollar. All at the expense of the upper and lower middle class. They fed off of us and left us all out to dry.

            I make 1/2 of what I made in 2008. And I’m just happy to have a half-way decent job. I’ve had to dip into my 401k just to survive. All the while, corporate bigwigs are laughing all the way to the bank. Am I bitter? You bet your ass I am.

          • September 13, 2013 at 10:49 am
            Agent says:
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            Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

      • September 12, 2013 at 12:12 pm
        FFA says:
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        Libby, I did not see or do not remember anything on time limits on the subsidy. Did I miss something?

        • September 12, 2013 at 1:04 pm
          Libby says:
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          No. What I meant was that as young people advance in their career and begin to make more money, they won’t qualify for the subsidy any longer.

          • September 12, 2013 at 3:29 pm
            FFA says:
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            I am afraid that when they get everything subsidized / for free, why would they bother to advance themselves. Easier to stick their hand out then it is to roll up the sleeves and get a job.
            Besides, when they do advance themselves to the upper class wager earner, they just become a target of social criticism.

          • September 12, 2013 at 3:54 pm
            Libby says:
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            Not fair, FFA. I don’t criticize upper wage earners. I criticize billionnaire Wall Street fat cats. Cheap shot.

          • September 12, 2013 at 4:46 pm
            FFA says:
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            Libby, was not directed at you directly. I hear the same stuff no matter what I do. I heard it on the Soft Ball field (before I retired last year), I hear it at the bowling alley, I hear it from my brothers.
            I hear it from my clients, my employees, my neighbors.
            That line of thinking is not exclusive to you & Cap and others in IJ. I heard so many people tell me they would not vote for Mitt because he was filthy rich. I think that had more to do with him losing the election then most people think.
            Your line of thinking falls in line with soooo many people.
            What bugs me about your (and many others) line of thinking is you support cutting Corporate Welfare and never say anything negative about Foreign Aide. So, before you bash Govt Assistance to Americans, business or otherwise – in my opinion, you should first bash on Foreign Aide.

            Wouldn’t $1.5B be better spent on funding this health care law for Americans then $1.5B on military hardware for Egypt?

            you and I are just citizens so our opinion really don’t count in DC.

            Homeland First!

          • September 13, 2013 at 12:08 pm
            jw says:
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            Hey, FFA, I’m sure there are still many who will prefer the free ride, but rest assured that there are just as many (perhaps more) who DO want more out of their life. They will continue to improve their job & salary. They’re out there, promise, I’ve met many of them.

          • September 13, 2013 at 12:13 pm
            jw says:
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            FFA, I agree with you about foriegn aid, by the way. I really don’t see the point. Especially since we keep switching which dictator or imperial goon we support. Didn’t the CIA fund or supply arms to Saddam Hussien? Then we took him out of power. It’s not like we support people who actually appreciate it and use it for good. That money is just thrown away.

          • September 13, 2013 at 12:43 pm
            FFA says:
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            JW, I am sure there are people out there with a sense of self pride.
            Question turns to – those that would rather take the free ride – how do we motivate them to better themselves?
            I am sure if you (or any one) has the answer to that question, they would quickly turn into one of the despised fat cats.

        • September 13, 2013 at 10:41 am
          Agent says:
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          FFA, A family of four are eligible for subsidies if the combined family income is $94,000. Seems like a high threshold for subsidies to me. I thought the subsidies were designed to help the poor afford insurance, didn’t you? Of course, that may be the working poor in some parts of the country with their cost of living.

          • September 13, 2013 at 4:49 pm
            Agent says:
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            jw, we did support Sadam when he was fighting Iran back in the day. He was seen as less evil than Iran who was really into supporting Terrorism and remember them taking the American embassy people and holding them for nearly two years while Carter wrung his hands? Wasn’t it amazing to see them released the day Ronny was sworn in? I wonder why they did that. Yes, our government has been addicted to trying to save the world for decades and we have been in bed with some bad characters because the alternative was even worse.

  • September 10, 2013 at 5:20 pm
    Agent says:
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    Bob, good luck convincing Libby on tax rates. She is firmly a Kool Aid drinker who is lock step with Obama that we need to tax the rich even more to level the playing field. She doesn’t get it that her employer is providing her job to her. No one has ever made a poor man rich by making a rich man poor in the history of the world. Europe is having all kinds of economic problems with excessive taxation of businesses. I don’t see France creating businesses with a 70% rate, do you? It is all about creating jobs and tax payers, not tax takers. Liberals never get it that more revenue is created when you have a healthy economy with millions of new taxpayers. What is going on now is the tax takers are draining the system with unemployment benefits and Social Security disability.

    • September 10, 2013 at 9:14 pm
      Ron says:
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      Agent,

      Interesting that you made the statement, “Liberals never get it that more revenue is created when you have a healthy economy with millions of new taxpayers.” So, you must be happy that the 47% is now only 43%?

      http://money.cnn.com/2013/08/29/pf/taxes/who-doesnt-pay-federal-income-taxes/index.html

    • September 11, 2013 at 10:03 am
      Libby says:
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      Agent – if it weren’t for all the greedy Wall Street Republicans that fleeced the American people, our economy would be healthy. I’m all for millions of new taxpayers. The problem is all the people with the money are not creating jobs. The poor are not draining this society. The rich are.

      • September 11, 2013 at 10:04 am
        Libby says:
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        And just so we’re clear. I do not consider you one of the rich. Only one of the wannabe rich. Even though you be the big boss man, you are still only one of us. Sorry.

    • September 11, 2013 at 5:16 pm
      D says:
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      Agent. Europe is having problems due to imposing austerity during bad economic times. Increasing taxes on high earners has never led to a down economy. Regarding to the US, why would lowering the tax rate on the CEO’s personal income result in more hiring of the company he/she runs? There is no connection between the two. There is no logic to your position. He/she is not going to go out and spend the additional cash on a washing machine or boat as they are already in the high income bracket and already posess those things. The extra money goes into the bank and really provides none of the benefits you supply siders/trickle downers scream about. Hiring is solely the result of increased demand. If we had no stimulus in 2009 the economy would have slid into a depression. It was a weak stimulus but it kept us from going overboard and keeping demand at a level that prevented a depression. Read your old economics text books from college unless you never took economics which explains your philosophy.

      • September 12, 2013 at 9:01 am
        Captain Planet says:
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        Rack ‘em!

        • September 12, 2013 at 9:24 am
          Libby says:
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          And break!

      • September 12, 2013 at 5:06 pm
        FFA says:
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        ” why would lowering the tax rate on the CEO’s personal income result in more hiring of the company he/she runs?”

        They would have more disposable income to pay the gardener, the pool boy, tennis lessons for the Barbie doll wife, get the carpets cleaned again.. Maybe paint every two years instead of ever three years.

        I know it trickle down theory which you don’t believe in. I personally spent $5K on a home improvement project that in years past I would have done on my own. Instead, I had more money then time and spent it.

      • September 13, 2013 at 4:41 pm
        Agent says:
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        D, what do you attribute the economic problems of Europe to? Let me answer it for you. Europe, with their Progressive Socialist Keynsian spending policies of their governments simply ran out of other peoples money. In addition, the government’s unions had very lucrative legacy costs for benefits which were untenable, just like many state governments and cities here in the US. Why do you think several cities here have declared bankruptcy with the largest being Detroit? Austerity is the result of over spending and the lack of funds for government. Greece is the best example with riots in the streets on a regular basis. Your argument that the Stimulus saved the economy holds no water at all. All it did was add to the $17 Trillion debt and created virtually no private sector jobs since it was primarily a political pay back to fund supporters of Obama. Had the Stimulus lowered tax rates for all Americans and actually did some infrastructure building like was promised, we may have seen some “progress” in our economy by now. Also, we have the specter of Obamacare which is the biggest job killer ever passed. Every week reveals more and more businesses who are cutting hours, reducing staff so they can deal with the effects of this tragedy of a law. By the way, I do have a degree in Economics and made straight A’s. What hole did you crawl out of and where did you pick up your Progressive Socialist philosophy?

  • September 10, 2013 at 7:27 pm
    FFA says:
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    Even more confusing – I just finished off my courses and exams. What’s next???? No direction to go. What a cluster F#@!.

    Any one know what to do now?

    • September 11, 2013 at 1:34 pm
      jw says:
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      Sorry FFA. I’m only good for information about KY. Since IL will be using the federal exchange, I can’t even imagine who you could call to ask your questions. I know, not helping.

      • September 11, 2013 at 1:50 pm
        FFA says:
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        Is there a clear direction to follow after the exams in KY?

        • September 11, 2013 at 1:53 pm
          Libby says:
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          I’m not quite clear on what information you’re looking for, FFA. Can you elaborate?

          • September 11, 2013 at 2:20 pm
            FFA says:
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            I took all the exams – even the ones that were not required of me. Now what? I am building the Web Page. I have the links. I am advertising.

            is there something else I need to do with in the training site or am I just done and in a holding pattern waiting for 10/01/2013?

          • September 11, 2013 at 2:54 pm
            Libby says:
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            I think done and in a holding pattern. The good news is the plans to do go into effect until 1/1/14, so you will have 3 months to play around with quoting on the exchange and also independently with your carriers.

            Have you had meetings with all the carriers to see where they stand on competing against the exchange &/or how their exchange plans will differ from plans offered outside the exchange? Do they have plans to gear up underwriting for the onslaught of new applications? These are all things I would look to my carrier partners to help me sort out.

            Then just get ready to bone up on the exchange plans and how they differ from other plans and each other and quote, quote, quote away!

          • September 11, 2013 at 2:55 pm
            Libby says:
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            * that should be do NOT go into effect until 1/1/14…

          • September 11, 2013 at 3:03 pm
            FFA says:
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            Specific details – Coverages – Premiums – Subsidies / Tax Credits have not been released in IL yet.
            We went to the GA meetings. They don’t even have that info yet. My Producer went to the BCBS School /seminar last week or so and came back empty handed.

            So, build the web pages, get the links ready to post on Oct 1 and wait.

          • September 11, 2013 at 3:28 pm
            Libby says:
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            How do the carriers that are not participating in the exchange plan to compete? Do they expect an increase in activity?

          • September 11, 2013 at 4:42 pm
            FFA says:
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            Well Libby, my best guess (that’s all we can do in IL so Ron, don’t ask for metrics) is they will be chasing the people that don’t need subsidies but do need coverage.

          • September 12, 2013 at 8:35 am
            Libby says:
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            Well, I would nail that down so that when those people start flooding your office for quotes, you’ll understand all the options. That should keep you busy for the next 18 days or so.

          • September 12, 2013 at 12:14 pm
            FFA says:
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            In progress Libby… The 1M hh I am chasing wont be the exchange policies. High earners that can afford to pay their way not on the govt buck.

          • September 12, 2013 at 1:05 pm
            Libby says:
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            So you already know what those carriers will be offering to compete with the exchange?

          • September 12, 2013 at 3:32 pm
            FFA says:
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            No Libby. We know nothing in Illinois. I did look into it, but, there was nothing to look into except for whats offered her and now – today.
            I think what always posted in a previous debate was what is currently being offered…

  • September 11, 2013 at 11:24 am
    D says:
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    So…ask yourselves this: How many of you just want this thing to crash and burn? How many of you want to see it succeed? Pay no attention to what your gut says. Who wants it to work and who want is to fail?

    • September 11, 2013 at 11:32 am
      Libby says:
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    • September 11, 2013 at 12:18 pm
      Captain Planet says:
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    • September 11, 2013 at 1:51 pm
      FFA says:
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      I do want it to work using traditional math – not Obama math. I am not like Cap or Libby. I don’t want any impact on my tax bill. But, I know its going to happen.

      • September 11, 2013 at 2:58 pm
        Libby says:
        Hot debate. What do you think?
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        It wouldn’t have to if we stop all the Corporate welfare we have going on. Did you see the article about crop insurance and how the government is subsidizing corporate profits? This needs to stop just as much as the so-called deadbeats that are leaching off the government. I’d venture to say the difference in dollars is peanuts compared to the billions paid out in corporate subsidies/welfare.

        • September 11, 2013 at 3:06 pm
          FFA says:
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          You left out Foreign Aide. That should be the first think on the chopping block.

          • September 13, 2013 at 4:24 pm
            Agent says:
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            Hey FFA. Foreign countries getting our aid hate us now. I don’t think they will hate us more if we cut them off. All foreign aid should be suspended indefinitely. Let them go to Putin or Saudia Arabia if they need some help. If Putin wants to play big boy, let him cough up some dough to these various countries and then they can hate him for sending it.

  • September 11, 2013 at 3:08 pm
    D says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    About 25 – 30 years ago Health experts at the Heritage Foundation (consevative think tank) devised a plan for universal health care coverage. What resulted was the foundation of what we now know as Obamacare. They were even smart enough (way more so than the so-called insurance people who post on this site) to consider the “law of large numbers” and the benefits of everyone participating in the system. That would be the Individual Madate. So, why are conservatives now blasting ideas that were created by other conservatives and are the foundation of Obamacare? Maybe today’s conservatives are just not as smart as the 1980s version. Why do the morons (really, there is no other word) in congress constantly have votes to repeal Obamacare which have no chance of passing? To quote Albert Einstien: “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result”. Insanity lives and it is called the Republican party. I am ashamed that I was ever associated with the GOP.

    • September 11, 2013 at 3:32 pm
      Libby says:
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      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

      • September 11, 2013 at 4:01 pm
        Ron says:
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        • September 11, 2013 at 4:43 pm
          Libby says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          Oops! Pretty soon he’ll only not care about 25% of Americans. To make up the void, who will he not care about then? LOL!

          • September 11, 2013 at 4:58 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

          • September 11, 2013 at 5:04 pm
            Libby says:
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  • September 11, 2013 at 3:43 pm
    FFA says:
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    It was just a matter of time before someone came up with this.
    FantasyPlayerProtect .
    Insurance policies for your Fantasy Players!

    • September 12, 2013 at 1:13 pm
      Agent says:
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      Libby, you should brush up on history. Benjamin Franklin was never a President even though his picture is on the currency.



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