Will Energy Firm Executives Be Sued for Ignoring Climate Change?

By Mark Hollmer | June 4, 2014

  • June 4, 2014 at 9:51 am
    Brian says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    They will not chance litigation in open court yet. There is FAR too much data contradicting the Global Warming (oh… “climate change” now..) religion. NO temp. rise in the last 17 years, for example. Having to submit their ‘data’ to close examination and being defeated in court would be a hard hit to the PR spin they have worked so hard to build.
    http://www.climatedepot.com/2014/03/04/updated-global-temperature-no-global-warming-for-17-years-6-months-no-warming-for-210-months/
    http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2014/05/08/coldest-year-on-record-so-far-in-the-us/
    http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/07-11-2013/126075-climate_science_fraud-0/

    • June 4, 2014 at 2:29 pm
      Lisa Laredo, CIC says:
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      Saying there has not been a rise in temperature over the last 17 years is a flat out lie, Brian.

      http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2013/13

      • June 4, 2014 at 7:39 pm
        Reality_based_community says:
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        Lisa…its a swarm of denialists. Don’t take it too seriously.

        • June 5, 2014 at 1:49 pm
          Destro says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          You liberals (eco-Nazis) and your buzz words.

          • June 9, 2014 at 12:38 pm
            Libby says:
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            You neocons and your idiot ideals.

    • June 4, 2014 at 3:12 pm
      Agent says:
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      • June 4, 2014 at 3:22 pm
        Lisa Laredo, CIC says:
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        One of Brian’s links comes from a gentleman who believes the Sandy Hook shootings were faked. Yeah, a lot to like there, Agent.

        • June 4, 2014 at 3:51 pm
          Agent says:
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          • June 5, 2014 at 11:39 am
            Libby says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            And did you hear? The earth is flat, too, Agent!

          • June 5, 2014 at 11:40 am
            Libby says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            I heard it on FoxNews and read about it on drudge.com. It’s gotta be true!!

          • June 5, 2014 at 1:53 pm
            Destro says:
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            As opposed to “the sky is falling.” I heard it on MSNBC and read about it on thehuffingtonpost.com. It’s gotta be true!!

            Did you know that the polar ice caps were completely melted and gone by 2013!?! Joe Biden and John Kerry said so, it’s gotta be true!!

      • June 4, 2014 at 8:08 pm
        Reality_based_community says:
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        Yes, links to known climate denialists as well as Pravda are probably more valid than a link to NOAA *rolls eyes*

    • June 4, 2014 at 8:29 pm
      Reality_based_community says:
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      Brian – “They will not chance litigation in open court yet” Not really true, Brian. Climatologist Michael Mann recently launched litigation. http://www.climatesciencewatch.org/2014/03/18/mann-motion-to-dismiss-steyns-counter-suit/

  • June 4, 2014 at 12:44 pm
    Libby says:
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    Oh, boy, here we go again. Is there or isn’t there? I don’t think there is ANY question that climate is rapidly changing and glacial ice is melting fast. The only dispute I see is whether or not or to what extent man has to do with it.

    • June 4, 2014 at 1:42 pm
      Dave says:
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      The climate on planet earth always has and always will change. It changed much more for the first 4.5 billion years before man inhabited the planet and will continue to do so until the sun blows up in another 5 billion years.

      • June 4, 2014 at 2:11 pm
        Agent says:
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        This article should be good for another 300 comments from both sides. Dave, should we sue the State of Alaska for the volcano that is now erupting? I am sure man had something to do with that and all the gas and ash coming out will surely have a bad effect on the climate, right?

      • June 4, 2014 at 2:18 pm
        Captain Planet says:
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        Dave,
        Is that your justification for poisoning the planet? For any God-fearing conservative out there, what gives you the right to poison God’s gift to humanity? Thou Shalt Not Kill. This poison is killing not only the planet, but people. Not to mention all of the non-terminal illness and disease it creates. If there are ways to create the same or similar benefits without the poison, shouldn’t we explore those options and implement them? And who knows, maybe even make a positive impact on the climate in the process.

        • June 4, 2014 at 2:39 pm
          Libby says:
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          No, Captain! China and India will not play nice, so we will throw sand in their face and refuse to eat our vegetables! That ought to show ‘em!

          • June 4, 2014 at 7:41 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Agent, in the previous thread re Florida I asked you to produce any evidence whatsoever that data were falsified. You were unable or unwilling to do so. Can you provide a solitary shred of evidence now to support your claim? Or are you just totally indifferent to the truth?

          • June 5, 2014 at 9:49 am
            Libby says:
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            It’s the latter. On pretty much any issue with Agent. The only excuse I can give is he’s from Texas…

          • June 5, 2014 at 10:35 am
            Agent says:
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          • June 5, 2014 at 10:50 am
            Libby says:
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            You only embrace them because it fits your narrow-minded, bigoted agenda. If you had half a brain (or even a fraction thereof) you would dig deeper and see that these “facts” have been debunked. Over and over. But you don’t have a brain and these “facts” fit your narrow-minded, bigoted agenda so you take them at face value. I can’t believe we allow people like you to vote. Talk about low information! Wow!!!

          • June 5, 2014 at 2:56 pm
            Destro says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            I love how whiney liberals are constantly crying about sources. Why should someone in a comment section need to provide sources when the media doesn’t?

            And what about the info I cited regarding the scientists making up the “polar bear population” numbers? You asked for evidence and I gave it. yet you’re still whining like a petulant child.

            Libby,
            “Narrow minded, bigoted agenda,” haha talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Narrow minded, you mean like the climate change crowd’s view? Bigoted, like you attributing your perception of Texans? Or how you “can’t believe we allow people like [Agent] to vote”?

          • June 5, 2014 at 6:19 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Agent – “I suggest you go to the first comment on this thread to find your answers and the numerous others posted by Dave and Empo. You reject them because it doesn’t fit your Socialist Common Core upbringing.”

            I’m not sure what the “socialist” common core has to do with the discussion, but I’ve already pointed out how the linked stories were flat-out wrong. I reject them because they don’t reflect the known science, but rather the political agenda of the Heartland Institute and their funders, such as the Koch Brothers. You are being manipulated and just can’t seem to grasp the glaringly obvious manipulation.

          • June 6, 2014 at 8:42 am
            KY jw says:
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            I read the article you provided about polar bear numbers. They didn’t just pick a number out of a hat. They scientific inference to estimate the number of polar bears. That’s actually common in wildlife management. Why is this a problem now?

          • June 6, 2014 at 8:44 am
            KY jw says:
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            They “used scientific”

        • June 4, 2014 at 2:39 pm
          Comm'l Producer says:
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          Captain Planet – The hysteria your comments reflect is why we cannot have a rationale dialogue about this subject. Far too many , like you, have bought the argument that man is causing change via CO2 emissions despite the increasing evidence that a.)the models used to predict climate change have been severely wrong, b.) that there has been significant manipulation of the data (see Univ of E Anglia and Penn State controversies), c.) the fact that the earth’s atmosphere has had considerably greater concentrations of CO2 in its past, well before the industrial revolution, etc. My point is not to deny that the earth’s climate is changing, it is and always has. Nor do I “deny” that man may be having some impact on this. My point is we really do not know yet the extent to which Man has or can, influence climate change and we should be able to have a rationale dialogue about this matter without the hysterical comments intimating that anyone who disagrees with your point of view want to poison the planet and its people.

          • June 4, 2014 at 2:48 pm
            Libby says:
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            Just what CAN we agree on, Comm’l Producer? I have tried to be reasonable on this topic only to be ridiculed and called and extremist and an alarmist.

            If you do not totally bebunk the “myth” you are some kind of lunatic running around saying the sky is falling.

            From the objective data I have seen (and conversations with my sister who is a scientist) I have found little dispute that there is indeed rapid climate change at this moment in time. Why can’t man have had a hand in it?

          • June 4, 2014 at 2:51 pm
            Agent says:
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          • June 4, 2014 at 7:44 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Comm, it just more of the same bogus charges with you denialists. There has been no manipulation of data. The E Anglia university, and all individuals about which claims were made, have been thoroughly vindicated. And I’m not sure what the Penn State “controversy” is to which you refer, but I do know the climatologist Michael Mann of Penn State is suing the National Review for libel, and has so far won every single hearing. Just more of the same.

          • June 9, 2014 at 9:23 am
            Destro says:
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            RBC, do you get one of those Chris Matthews “thrill up your leg” every time you menetion Michael Mann or are you being paid to?

          • June 9, 2014 at 9:40 am
            Libby says:
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            Oh, what a pithy comeback, Destro! So intelligent.

          • June 9, 2014 at 5:43 pm
            Destro says:
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            He honestly says his name in 80% of his comments.

          • June 9, 2014 at 8:56 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Destro, I know it must strike you as unusual to cite a relevant *climate scientist* in a discussion about *climate change*

            I’ll give you a few moments to see if you can understanding the connection…*climate scientist*….*climate change*….

            It’s certain that you mention climate scientists in 0% of your posts.

        • June 4, 2014 at 2:57 pm
          Agent says:
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          • June 5, 2014 at 9:05 am
            Captain Planet says:
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            Agent,
            For the record, I stand in opposition to the ethanol plants. They are a huge waste of energy and I refuse to put that fuel in my vehicles, voting against ethanol with my dollars. I have also tried to reduce my corn-based diet. Corn, in one form or another, is in nearly everything we eat. I will not eat or drink items with high fructose corn syrup. That alone may be the root cause to much of the obesity and diabetes we see amongst our fellow Americans.

          • June 5, 2014 at 10:47 am
            Agent says:
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            Good for you Planet for your opposition to ethanol. How do you find a gas station that doesn’t put at least 10% Ethanol into their blend? I can’t find one in Texas. By the way, I insure quite a few Auto Repair Garages. My insureds say that Ethanol is far less efficient and you lose at least 10% mileage for every tank and Ethanol is very hard on injectors in cars leading to future repairs. For the record, corn prices have steadily escalated due to the corn crop’s dedication to ethanol. I don’t see corn as being a bad food group as long as you are responsible about what you eat. By the way, I asked you if you went out and supported the Principal Charity Classic in Des Moines on another thread? Did you or did you go running again?

          • June 5, 2014 at 10:52 am
            Libby says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            What do you care about how Captain spends his weekends? Does it matter whether he golfed or went jogging?

          • June 5, 2014 at 2:00 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            Agent,
            I have also learned about ethanol blend and it’s negative impacts. We have straight 87 here. It’s all I use. The cost of corn rises with the demand for feed, too. And, the Chinese like to refuse shipment sometimes. Let’s also not forget droughts and floods (aflotoxins, I could go on…)

            The half marathon was the same weekend again. I put up a personal best then went and coached my daughter’s soccer team and we had a post-season celebration following the game. Unfortunately, I had to pass on free tix, too much going on Sunday at the house, too. Celebrated my father-in-law’s birthday that afternoon. Yard work and smoked some steaks for lunch that morning. Maybe next year (Cubs motto).

        • June 4, 2014 at 3:10 pm
          John Q. Agent says:
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          • June 5, 2014 at 12:45 pm
            Agent says:
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            Libby, Planet proudly proclaimed he was an avid golfer and when the Champions Tour came to Des Moines, he decided to go jogging instead of supporting the event that comes only once a year to his area. By the way, they raise a lot of money for charities in the area. Planet does not practice what he preaches. I support every pro event within 200 miles if I can and it is for such a good cause.

          • June 5, 2014 at 12:59 pm
            KY jw says:
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            Doing something is not the same as watching someone else do it. Just because Planet loves to golf doesn’t mean he wants to watch other people golf.

            Also, you don’t have to go to a professional charitable event to support a cause. I send money directly to the cause. That way my charities of choice don’t have to spend money and I don’t have to attend some boring event. Win – win.

          • June 5, 2014 at 2:03 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            Agent, the race I run in every year also supports the area and also is a charitable event. It’s not like I choose to just go jogging on my own that day. By the way, we had over 9,000 runners this year. I go to the Principal Classic when I can. I also give to various charities throughout the year, ones I choose. And, yes, I am avid. Right now, I’m a 6. Going to play in a couple hours.

          • June 6, 2014 at 9:44 am
            Agent says:
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            So Planet, by smoking steaks, you were contributing to pollution. Doesn’t that bother you that you are not being a good steward of the environment? I thought you would be a vegetarian by now. I am glad you are enjoying your time with your family. Even though you didn’t patronize the golf tournament, they did mention that they raised more money for charity than any other Champions Tour event so Des Moines did support them.

          • June 6, 2014 at 12:28 pm
            KY jw says:
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            I don’t understand why it bothers you, Agent, that Captain Planet didn’t go to a golf event. He response is quite thorough and well mannered. Yet, you keep harping on this golf thing. Why?

          • June 6, 2014 at 3:25 pm
            Agent says:
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            So Planet, you are a 6 now. Good for you. I fluctuate between scratch and 3 depending on the time of year. Do you ever play the course the Champions Tour played? It looks very hilly to me, but somewhat short since they were hitting short irons in to almost all the par 4′s. I know the Champions Tour guys hit it farther than I do, but when they hit 60 yard flip sand wedges into the green, I would probably be hitting wedge as well.

      • June 4, 2014 at 2:44 pm
        Libby says:
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        Dave – you have got to be one of the most uneducated posters on this subject, yet you continue to embarass yourself doing it. Of course climate changes, you moron. But it’s changing now at a much faster rate than before. There is scientific evidence of this as well as the fact that the earth revolves around the sun, which is round BTW.

        • June 4, 2014 at 3:36 pm
          Dave says:
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          • June 4, 2014 at 3:54 pm
            Agent says:
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          • June 4, 2014 at 3:55 pm
            Libby says:
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            Nice post, Dave. But kinda chickenshit with the ***** and the ****. What’s wrong? Don’t have the balls to come right out and say what’s on your mind?

            You have the typical 3rd grade reading comprehension skills of all the neocons on this sight. “feel free to explain how it applies here and “proves” human caused climate change.” Please point out to me where I EVER said there was proof humans caused climate change. I have said nothing of the sort, only that there is rapid climate change and the actual dispute is whether &/or how much man has influenced it.

            And just because I don’t agree with your rhetoric and baseless and groundless slanders, does not mean I am in the least bit a liar. In fact, you are the one spewing lies on here, not me.

            So, I think we have determined just who the ignoranmus is in this case. Uh. That would be you.

          • June 4, 2014 at 4:01 pm
            Lisa Laredo, CIC says:
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            Good job promoting intelligent discussion with the name calling there, “Dave”. Hasn’t mom called you down for dinner yet?

          • June 4, 2014 at 5:12 pm
            Don't Call Me Shirley says:
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            Actually, the earth ROTATES (i.e. spins) on it’s axis, from west to east, and REVOLVES around the sun. The earth revolves around the sun in an elliptical orbit. That’s not new Common Core; that’s basic astronomy/science that’s been around since the middle ages, when religious nutjobs tried to argue otherwise. I guess, in some places, education hasn’t progressed past medieval levels. Just teach what’s in the bible, nothing else.

          • June 4, 2014 at 8:59 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            DCMS – I love Dave’s arrogant assertion that Libby doesn’t understand science, and then proceeds to get basic 3rd grade science wrong.

          • June 4, 2014 at 9:04 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Dave – “I’ll bet you don’t even understand the simple concept of the scientific method. And if you do, feel free to explain how it applies here and “proves” human caused climate change.”

            The scientific method using deductive reasoning and empirical hypothesis testing to ascertain causal relationships; such as, say, between CO2 and planetary warming. The method relies on replication, peer-review, critique and counterargument. By now, I’d have to say there are many 1000s of peer-reviewed research papers on this subject, using multiple lines of evidence and different methodologies. The result has been pretty much unanimous consensus in the literature that climate change is happening at an astonishing rate, and that humans are the cause.

            What does your side have, outside of the tabloid right-wing noise machine? Anything?

          • June 4, 2014 at 9:06 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            btw, Dave, very bad form re Libby and the name calling. Grow up, please.

          • June 4, 2014 at 9:17 pm
            Dave says:
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          • June 4, 2014 at 9:21 pm
            Dave says:
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          • June 4, 2014 at 9:46 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Dave, I’ll try to reply to your comment, but it is rather incoherent. I’ll do my best:

            “Reality, but it’s OK for Libby to drop F-Bombs? Yet another liberal trait. Hypocrisy. Liberals such as yourself always seem to defend free speech, unless of course one disagrees with the liberal line. How open minded of you folks.”

            I didn’t notice the “f-bomb.” In fact, I just performed a word search on this thread for said word, and nothing turned up. At all. Do you reside in Colorado, by any chance? Just curious.

            “So if you on the left decide global warming is FACT, you can cut off debate.”

            The “left” didn’t decide that global warming is FACT . Rather, that is the overwhelming conclusion of thousands of research efforts using multiple lines of evidence and many different methodologies. And the fact that there is absolutely no science that refutes it.

            “The other side cannot be heard.”

            The “other side” has every opportunity to be heard. Please publish your results in a reputable peer-reviewed journal when your results come in. We are all anxious to learn of them, I’m sure.

            “Sounds like Nazism.”

            Please google “Godwin’s Law.”

            “Are you a Nazi Reality?”

            I don’t know what this means. Please clarify.

            “Or can there be two sides to every debate? ”

            Not really. Not every debate. Sometimes we (us humans) can effectively ascertain reality. Are there two sides of the flat earth debate? The theory of gravity? That it is always unwise to put your head in the gaping jaws of a lion? Let’s debate those premises eh, if we have a lot of time on our hands.

            “Or are you a hypocrite too?”

            Nope. You’ll get nothing but honest straightforward comments from me. See above.

          • June 4, 2014 at 10:18 pm
            Dave says:
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          • June 4, 2014 at 10:54 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            @Dave – “Overwhelming? Didn’t you say all scientist before? Backtracking? And as mentioned elsewhere here, the “climatologists” have a vested interest in pushing their climate change rant as their livelihoods depends on it. ”

            No, I have never said all scientists. If you can find where I said that, I’ll give you $100, straight up. You’d be hard pressed to get all scientists to agree on anything, including the fact that the earth is round (spherical in you parlance). And aside from you conspiracy theorizing (nefarious vested interests, etc), do you have any scientific data and evidence?

          • June 5, 2014 at 10:17 am
            Libby says:
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            Dave, Dave, Dave.

            “Libby, I don’t have the potty mouth you do dropping F-Bombs. BTW, yet another stupid bimbo remark by you.”

            Do you think by putting ***** and ****, you don’t have a potty mouth? Typical neocon quibbling. We ALL know what you meant. Intent is 9/10 of the law, buddy. Just because you don’t come out a say it doesn’t mean you don’t have a potty mouth. It only means that I have more integrity than you because I SAY what I mean.

            Oh. And yes, ***Newsflash***, the Earth is round – as opposed to flat as your ilk still believe. I know you would like to quibble about round v. spherical and two versus three dimensional, and I would be happy to do that with you at any time. I was trying to KISS you. (Keep it simple stupid.) Because I know that’s all you can comprehend.

            Nice talking to you. Now buzz off. You irritate me.

          • June 9, 2014 at 9:41 am
            Destro says:
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            I think everyone who comments on InsuranceJournal.com needs to get laid. What do you say gang, who’s down for a good old fashioned masquerade orgy?

          • June 9, 2014 at 11:30 am
            Libby says:
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            Oh, if you’d only asked me on Friday, before the weekend!

          • June 9, 2014 at 1:58 pm
            KY jw says:
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            Destro, oh, I don’t know, as great as your ideas are, this one crosses into TMI. *shudders*

        • June 4, 2014 at 7:46 pm
          Reality_based_community says:
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          Libby, seems like deja vu all over again. Same pointless arguments and meaningless assertions.

          • June 5, 2014 at 10:23 am
            Libby says:
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            Yup. Did you notice how Dave totally ignored my question to him about “Please point out to me where I EVER said there was proof humans caused climate change. I have said nothing of the sort, only that there is rapid climate change and the actual dispute is whether &/or how much man has influenced it.”

            Again, typical neocon reaction; attack me and call me names while at the same time ignoring the fact that I got you dead to rights.

            Dollars to donuts? We won’t hear another peep from Dave about it. Snippity, Snip, Snap!

        • June 5, 2014 at 1:04 pm
          GrowUp says:
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          Does anyone on this board work? Libby – just because you are getting more thumbs up does not make you right. You are writing just as many juvenile posts as those who do not support global warming and dishing out just as many inappropriate insults here. I find all of it juvenile and you should be embarrassed. Apparently, you have no work to do based on your 100 comments on this topic.

          • June 5, 2014 at 3:10 pm
            GrowUp says:
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            Waiting for my other 20 dislikes. Libby just needs time to sign on under her other 20 names she uses to talk to herself to do so ;)

          • June 6, 2014 at 8:41 am
            Libby says:
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            GrowUp – Perhaps you should follow your own advice. If you don’t like the commentary, by all means, don’t sign on.

            And if you had been paying attention, I take full responsibility for my inappropriate insults. I wasn’t the one calling anyone out about it – only not owning up to it by using ***** and *** to quibble about it.

          • June 6, 2014 at 8:43 am
            Libby says:
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            And why am I always singled out for these type of comments when Agent posted just as many, if not more, than I do? Because you agree with his position and not mine? I guess you’re not as grown up as you’d like us to believe.

          • June 6, 2014 at 9:48 am
            Agent says:
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            Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

          • June 6, 2014 at 12:32 pm
            KY jw says:
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            Wait! GrowUp said Libby posts too much, but Agent said Reality_based_community has the most posts. Really, that’s what’s important in this discussion?

            You all are much too concerned with everyone else’s business.

          • June 6, 2014 at 6:38 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Agent- “Yes GrowUp, the downposting Nazi’s are hard at work on this thread…”

            Agent, do you and others on the right that post here have Nazi Tourette’s?”

            “I do not think that word means what you think it means.” – Inago Montoya.

          • June 9, 2014 at 10:04 am
            Destro says:
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            Inigo Montoya*

        • June 6, 2014 at 1:20 pm
          bob says:
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          • June 6, 2014 at 2:31 pm
            Libby says:
            Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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            What would be me? At least try to be coherent when you post.

            Yes, I have mentioned global warming in the past and I have mentioned climate change. So what? You are a moron if you think the climate is not changing at a much more rapid pace than in the past 400,000 years. I have already posted a link to prove that. If you disagree, show me your source.

            And my sister has 2 masters degrees and is a well-respected scientist in her community. She agrees with the science (as do 97%), so I’ll believe her over your brother, the “phd major” – whatever that is.

          • June 6, 2014 at 2:46 pm
            bob says:
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          • June 6, 2014 at 2:59 pm
            Libby says:
            Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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            Bob, I don’t have to wait for a link and I did ready the Forbes article. See my response to it below.

            “You don’t have a scientist sister. I know this for a fact.”

            You don’t know anything about my sister, who has TWO masters degrees, or any of my other family members.

            “No respectable scientist would state there is no disagreement in the field. None.”

            Since your reading comprehension is so remedial, I will have to spell this out for you: NOWHERE ON THIS FORUM DID I EVER QUOTE MY SISTER AS SAYING THERE IS NO DISAGREEMENT IN THE FIELD. You made that up by putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. Your usual.

            “You are arguing that those against you are paranoid.”

            No I’m not. THEY’RE arguing that WE’RE paranoid for believing there is a climate change issue. Please try to keep up.

            “I’m well aware of the variables. You aren’t.”

            Arrogant much?

            Now, quit posting nonsense and I won’t have to “hand you your head.”

          • June 6, 2014 at 3:04 pm
            bob says:
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          • June 6, 2014 at 3:08 pm
            Libby says:
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            Since when is saying 97% of scientists agree with a climate change issue the same as saying there is no dispute in the field? Even Destro didsn’t disagree with that. He just said we should listen to the other 3%.

            I’m delusional? You’re on drugs.

          • June 6, 2014 at 6:48 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Bob – “Libby, You delusional son of a bitch.”
            “We aren’t doing this back pedaling again. I don’t even need to go further, you 5 year old brat.”

            As I noted on this or another thread, people don’t respond negatively to you because of your professed religion (and I must say the and many other comments fall somewhat short of Christian ideals). They respond negatively because you come across as an asshole.

            Back to Bob – “They don’t even agree on what our affect is. That’s what I said. So I am correct.”

            It is correct by virtue of the fact that you said it. Rather like magical thinking…

          • June 6, 2014 at 6:53 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Re the consensus – this published peer-reviewed study found that of all papers on climate that expressed any view on climate change, 97.1% endorsed anthropogenic climate change, and well less than 1% denied it. That seems like a pretty strong consensus to me. There are many other studies like this out there for those interested. http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/8/2/024024/article

          • June 9, 2014 at 7:35 am
            KY jw says:
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            bob, you can’t say “you don’t have a sister” to someone you’ve never met in real life.

            Why did you say that?

          • June 9, 2014 at 7:37 am
            KY jw says:
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            s/b “don’t have a scientist sister”

    • June 4, 2014 at 8:50 pm
      Reality_based_community says:
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      Libby, I don’t think there is any dispute among climate scientists that humans are the cause of current climate change. None whatsoever.

      • June 4, 2014 at 9:23 pm
        Dave says:
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        • June 4, 2014 at 9:52 pm
          Reality_based_community says:
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          Well, that escalated quickly lol. Nazi? Really? I said there was no dispute among climate scientists. You are free to “debate” the science all you want, Dave, because we haven’t had a NAZI around here for years. Also, please inform yourself about Godwin’s Law. We are many years into the internet age. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

          • June 4, 2014 at 10:10 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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          • June 4, 2014 at 10:11 pm
            Dave says:
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          • June 4, 2014 at 11:04 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            @Dave – “Do you understand the Scientific Method and if you do can you share with us the absolute evidence that current climate change is mostly caused by human activity and not by factors that have changed the climate on Earth over the past 4.5 billion years? Or does the Nazi in you declare the debate over and done?”

            I explained the scientific method above. Do you have an issue with my description? Re evidence, the link below is to a 13 page annotated bibliography of research. Knock yourself out. Also, as mentioned above, Nazi references are rather childish in this context. http://cses.washington.edu/db/pdf/snoveretalsok2013appendix.pdf

          • June 4, 2014 at 11:06 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            And if you don’t feel like wading through all of the individual research papers, the IPCC is a very good compendium of the scientific evidence.

          • June 5, 2014 at 10:27 am
            Libby says:
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            RBC – Godwin’s theory says you have already won the argument. There is no need to continue. Especially with a dullard like Dave. It’s like barking into the wind…

          • June 9, 2014 at 11:40 am
            Destro says:
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            I feel like Godwin’s Law was made up by overly political Liberal nerds in defense of their authoritarian belief structure that “We need everyone to agree with us for our master plans to work.”

          • June 9, 2014 at 12:35 pm
            Libby says:
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            You see plots and conspiracies all around you, don’t you Destro? Paranoid much?

          • June 11, 2014 at 8:20 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            They really do see plots all around. Reality is utterly incomprehensible to them, so they advance unknown sinister forces plotting behind the scenes. One recent interesting study called “Recursive Fury” examined conspiratorial beliefs and their psychological roots. It included a section on climate change denialism. Of course, the denialists responded by claiming the paper on conspiracy theories was itself part of a conspiracy! Or the fact that the climate scientists who “conspired” to fake data were exonerated by no less than 9 separate in investigations plainly reveals that the investigations were part of the conspiracy! “Concerning climate denial, a case in point is the response to events surrounding the illegal hacking of personal emails by climate scientists, mainly at the University of East Anglia, in 2009. Selected content of those emails was used to support the theory that climate scientists conspired to conceal evidence against climate change or manipulated the data (see, e.g., Montford, 2010; Sussman, 2010). After the scientists in question were exonerated by 9 investigations in 2 countries, including various parliamentary and government committees in the U.S. and U. K., those exonerations were re-branded as a whitewash” (see, e.g., U.S. Representative Rohrabacher’s speech in Congress on 8 December 2011), thereby broadening the presumed involvement of people and institutions in the alleged conspiracy. We refer to this “self-sealing” criterion by the short label SS.” http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2013/02/26/what-happens-when-you-study-conspiracy-theories-the-conspiracy-theorists-make-up-conspiracy-theories-about-you/

          • June 11, 2014 at 8:27 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            The authors conclude that given the mindset, that it is pointless to argue with denialists.

            “mplications for science communication. A de fining attribute of conspiracist ideation is its resistance to contrary evidence (e.g., Bale, 2007; Keeley, 1999; Sunstein & Vermeule, 2009). This attribute is particularly troubling for science communicators, because providing additional scientifi c information may only serve to reinforce the rejection of the evidence, rather than foster its acceptance. A number of such “back fire” e ffects have been identi fied, and they are beginning to be reasonably well understood (Lewandowsky, Ecker, Recursive fury 37 et al., 2012). Although suggestions exist about how to rebut conspiracist ideations|e.g., by indirect means, such as affirmation of the competence and character of proponents of conspiracy theories, or affirmation of their other beliefs (e.g., Sunstein & Vermeule, 2009) we argue against direct engagement for two principal reasons.
            First, much of science denial takes place in an epistemically closed system that is immune to falsifying evidence and counterarguments (Boudry & Braeckman, 2012; Kalichman, 2009). We therefore consider it highly unlikely that outreach e fforts to those groups could be met with success. Second, and more important, despite the amount of attention and scrutiny directed towards LOG12 over several months, the publication of recursive hypotheses was limited to posts on only 24 websites, with only 13 blogs featuring more than one post (see Table 1). This indicates that the recursive theories, while intensely promoted by certain bloggers and commenters, were largely contained to the “echo chamber” of climate denial. Although LOG12 received considerable media coverage when it first appeared, the response by the blogosphere was ignored by the mainstream media. This confinement of recursive hypotheses to a small “echo chamber” reflects the wider phenomenon of radical climate denial, whose ability to generate the appearance of a widely held opinion on the internet is disproportionate to the smaller number of people who actually hold those views (e.g., Leviston, Walker, & Morwinski, 2012). This discrepancy is greatest for the small group of people who deny that the climate is changing (around 6% of respondents; Leviston et al., 2012). Members of this small group believe that their denial is shared by roughly half the population. Thus, although an understanding of science denial is essential given the importance of climate change and the demonstrable role of the blogosphere in delaying mitigative action, it is arguably best met by underscoring the breadth of consensus among scientists (Ding, Maibach, Zhao, Roser-Renouf, & Leiserowitz, 2011; Lewandowsky, Gignac, & Vaughan, 2012) rather than by direct engagement.”

          • June 12, 2014 at 9:10 am
            Libby says:
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            Very interesting. I think they could have summed it up by just saying “You can’t argue with stupid.”

        • June 4, 2014 at 11:10 pm
          Reality_based_community says:
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          @Dave. Do you have a solitary shred of evidence that current warming trends are caused by “natural cycles?” If so, please explain what those causes might be. Because the best minds working in the field haven’t been able to identify any “natural causes.” Perhaps you can enlighten them and us.

      • June 5, 2014 at 10:32 am
        Libby says:
        Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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        I don’t disagree, but I have been very careful on here not to espouse that theory because I know how the rabid neocons will jump down your throat at the slightest mention of it.

        Well, guess what? They did anyway!!! I knew they would. They are too busy attacking to even hear what anyone has to say, let alone Libby. They thumb me down and attack me without even reading what I say because they are so arrogant as to think they know it in advance. Fools. All of them.

        • June 5, 2014 at 11:06 am
          Libby says:
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          Oh. Check. And. Mate.

          • June 9, 2014 at 11:43 am
            Destro says:
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            Yes, everyone who doesn’t agree with you are fools.

          • June 9, 2014 at 12:37 pm
            Libby says:
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            No. Anyone that can’t look at science, understand it, and accept it is a fool.

            I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. It would be a very boring world if that were the case.

            I do, however, expect people to use the brains that God gave them.

          • June 9, 2014 at 2:00 pm
            KY jw says:
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            You’re such an optimist, Libby, thinking that God gave everyone brains. ;-)

          • June 9, 2014 at 2:28 pm
            EmpoftheEarth says:
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            Didnt get me there..I castled…

      • June 6, 2014 at 1:22 pm
        bob says:
        Hot debate. What do you think?
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        Change that to “I don’t think there is any dispute among climate scientists that humans are (one of the causes) of current climate change. None whatsoever.”

        And then even then, the extent of which is in considerable debate, then yes, there is dispute.

        Reality, you have a political horse in this game, that much is clear, as well as a “holier than thou” horse. It makes you feel better to believe in climate change, that those other guys are just looney toons.

        • June 6, 2014 at 8:03 pm
          Reality_based_community says:
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          Bob – “Reality, you have a political horse in this game, that much is clear, as well as a “holier than thou” horse. It makes you feel better to believe in climate change, that those other guys are just looney toons.”

          It doesn’t make me feel better that “the other guys are looney toons.” In fact, I find it sad, pathetic, and really rather alarming that about 1/3 of our population has decided to succeed from reality – whether it’s evolution, cosmology, vaccines, sex education, climate change, or any other of a number of other fundamental scientific findings. Even more alarming is that the wild irrationalism has become institutionalized in one of our two major political parties. The House *Science* Committee has never assembled a more shinging example of loony tunes characters, from (former Congressman) Todd “women can’t get pregnant if it’s a ‘legitimate’ rape” Akin; Paul “all that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and the Big Bang Theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of Hell” and “the earth is not more than 9000 years old” Bruan; Dana “dinosaur flatulence might account for past global warming” Rohrabacher; see link for more info: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/meet-the-house-gop-s-anti-science-committee. btw, Paul Broun also thinks humans and dinosaurs lived side-by-side. And of course, all of the right-side of the aisle believe climate change is a “hoax.”

          No, does not make make feel superior. It makes me think our country doesn’t have much of a future. Conservatives in no other advanced nations act like this.

          • June 6, 2014 at 8:04 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            translate succeed to secede. There is no success involved.

          • June 9, 2014 at 1:46 pm
            Destro says:
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            You’re such a colossal idiot.

          • June 9, 2014 at 9:01 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Dave, how old are you? Serious question.

          • June 10, 2014 at 8:51 am
            Libby says:
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            Destro just graduated from college. Give him a little slack…

  • June 4, 2014 at 1:41 pm
    Glenn D Hatfiled says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    These people are complete idiots – I want to sue them for ignoring the increases to my electric and gas bills causeed by their reckless disregard for science and the facts as it relates to global warming. When do we the people get our shot at them??

    I really hope someone begins taking the fight to them and make them prove their point of shut the heck up!

    • June 4, 2014 at 7:47 pm
      Reality_based_community says:
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      Well, climatologist Michael Mann is suing the conservative National Review for libel. So it looks like the denialists will have their day in court. Nobody is expecting the National Review to win though.

      • June 9, 2014 at 1:49 pm
        Destro says:
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        Do you get $10 every time you reference Michael Mann?

        • June 9, 2014 at 9:07 pm
          Reality_based_community says:
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          How odd it must be to one “educated” via the right-wing blogosphere that a mention of a relevant climate climate scientist in relation to a court case is made in direct response to “when will we [i.e. waco denialists] have our day in court?” You’ll have your day in court. Let’s see how that turns out…

          Hint: Your points would be strengthened is you could also cite a relevant climate scientist that supports your point of view. Good luck with that.

    • June 9, 2014 at 1:52 pm
      Destro says:
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      Those increases to your electric and gas bills can be directly attributed to Democrat legislation and the climate change alarmists. Don’t forget, Obama said “Under my plan, energy prices are necessarily going to skyrocket.”

      • June 9, 2014 at 2:14 pm
        Libby says:
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        Hahahahahaha. Haven’t you heard of supply and demand, Destro? The energy market is a “free” market and prices fluctuate based on supply and demand. Demand is high, so supply is going to cost you. It’s a simple as that.

        No green conspiracy going on here, pal.

        • June 9, 2014 at 2:30 pm
          EmpoftheEarth says:
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          Uhh…Libby…in most states, the utilities are regulated by a state board. In IL, they allowed 3rd party suppliers to come in for supplying electricity and natural gas, but use existing infrastructure. Not necessarily a free market with many restrictions in place.

          • June 9, 2014 at 3:01 pm
            Libby says:
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            Yes, they are regulated. They need to be regulated. Being regulated does not mean it is not a competitive market. The limited competition available now (to which you refer) is producing substantial benefits in pricing.

        • June 9, 2014 at 2:31 pm
          EmpoftheEarth says:
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          And thank you for providing the “supply” argument, which is being constrained by the government and its policies towards traditional energy sources of production.

  • June 4, 2014 at 1:59 pm
    Lisa Laredo, CIC says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    Any business owner who ignores common sense (as well as the results of looking outside their window) and fails to adapt to the relaity that is climate change deserves to have their rear hauled into court.

    • June 4, 2014 at 3:25 pm
      Comm'l Producer says:
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      Lisa – No doubt the climate is changing and that we all need to adapt. I happen to believe that Man has some impact, but we do not know the extent yet. I also believe that we all have the obligation to be good stewards of the gifts we have been given and this wonderful and unique planet is one of those gifts. All that being said, it is very, very large leap to sue the energy company executives for producing a product that we all want and use on a daily basis. The electricity to power your computer, the energy used to heat your hot water for your shower, the fuel that powered your car (or train or bus) to get to work, the oil that is used to make the plastic helmet for your kids bike helmet, etc. etc. etc. If we want put energy companies out of business, we had all better brush up on survival skills.

      • June 4, 2014 at 9:27 pm
        Reality_based_community says:
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        A cogent and thoughtful post from the “other side.” Thanks Comm. I agree to some extent, but I also think this is sort of like the tobacco lawsuits. Sure, cigarettes were legal, but the companies were found to have some liability for the harm their product caused. But no, I don’t expect climate change mitigation to be advanced much via litigation.

  • June 4, 2014 at 2:21 pm
    ssal says:
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    Who else might be sued for ignoring climate change? Investors in certain companies? The garbage hauler who doesn’t offer recycling? A governor who “doesn’t do enough”? The guy with a burn barrel in his back yard?

    If people are working within the current laws, how can they be sued?

    I’m not looking to debate climate change, but have questions on the article.

  • June 4, 2014 at 3:12 pm
    Libby says:
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    You know it wasn’t long ago you were tried for heresy, tortured, and killed for believing in science. Thank God that didn’t stop Copernicus, Charlemagne, Thomas Acquinas and others.

    • June 4, 2014 at 4:01 pm
      Agent says:
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      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

      • June 4, 2014 at 4:25 pm
        Libby says:
        Hot debate. What do you think?
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        First, because they’re not fake climatologists.

        Second, what is the “falsified data” to which you refer?

        Are you disputing climate change (a very easy fact to prove) or sea level increases? You know they are two different issues all together, right? I can’t believe anyone with any intelligience would try to dispute rapid climate change after looking at the data.

        Just what is it that you don’t agree with?

        • June 4, 2014 at 4:40 pm
          Agent says:
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          • June 4, 2014 at 4:43 pm
            Libby says:
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            Not really. It takes more energy to desalinate than is saved, making it much more expensive. Nice try, though.

          • June 4, 2014 at 5:22 pm
            Agent says:
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            Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

          • June 4, 2014 at 7:59 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Agent – “Had you bothered to read all the links provided showing the false prophets of Climate Change and their admissions to faking data, you might have a different opinion.” For what must the 100th time, do you have a solitary shred of evidence that anybody falsified data? You’ve yet to provide a credible source.

          • June 5, 2014 at 10:36 am
            Libby says:
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            Rush Limbaugh said so and Drudge.com agreed. Case closed for Agent.

            Oh! And he heard it on this blog. That’s enough evidence for him. Did I mention he’s from Texas?

        • June 4, 2014 at 5:23 pm
          Don't Call Me Shirley says:
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          1. Acid rain doesn’t exist. It’s junk science, based on falsified information. We have scientists who will testify to that.

          2. If we make regulations to reduce acid rain, that will be the end of all business. It will stick a dagger into the heart of America.

          Oh, wait…oops… nevermind.

          • June 4, 2014 at 10:27 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            It’s pretty much the same arguments over and over and over again, isn’t Shirley?

          • June 5, 2014 at 10:37 am
            Libby says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            DON’T call him Shirley!!!

        • June 9, 2014 at 2:06 pm
          Destro says:
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          You realize that there are fossils from ancient sea life found in the peaks of Wisconsin right?

          • June 9, 2014 at 2:15 pm
            Libby says:
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            What’s you point?

      • June 4, 2014 at 7:49 pm
        Reality_based_community says:
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        Agent, I’ve ask you repeatedly to tell me *who* falsified data. To date, you’ve been completely unable to provide any details. Not one. Very sad that you require baseless accusations to support your ideology.

        • June 5, 2014 at 10:11 am
          Agent says:
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          • June 5, 2014 at 10:43 am
            Libby says:
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            OMG! That settles it! Dave and Empo’s posts from drudge.com, heartland.com, and all the other teabag.com sites confirms it. There is nothing to worry about folks! Instead, let’s frighten our children and our children’s children about the debt, socialism, Benghazi, and (what’s the latest “scandal”???)

            But for Christ’s sake; we don’t need to worry about the environment! Drink that bottled water (of which I do not, Agent), do not recycle, throw your trash out of your car window, fire up those coal plants, and worry about what China and India are doing! We’ve got bigger fish to fry for crying out loud. There are Mexicans trying to cross the border!!!

          • June 5, 2014 at 6:33 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            No, there was nothing in the post from Dave or Emp that remotely suggested that anybody falsified data. Please provide just *one* link, as I don’t have all day to chase down and rebut multiple links that inevitably contain no verifiable info that anybody falsified data. Just vague accusation. Just give me your strongest case. As Libby said, if it’s from the Heartland Institute, it’s probably manufactured out of whole cloth. Hint: the strongest proof of data falsification includes such things as 1. university sanctioning an academic; 2. a paper being withdrawn; 3. an investigation or other probe leads to serious questions; 4. results can’t be replicated by anybody else. Weakest evidence: Heartland Institute says so. In fact, that should be taken as counter-evidence as there is a very strong chance that the truth is exactly opposite of what Heartland says.

  • June 4, 2014 at 3:33 pm
    Glenn D Hatfiled says:
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    • June 4, 2014 at 3:45 pm
      Agent says:
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    • June 4, 2014 at 5:32 pm
      Agent says:
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    • June 5, 2014 at 6:37 pm
      Reality_based_community says:
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      Glenn H – “All of their previous projections about global warming have not come true, the evidence they do provide is largely tampered with data that is designed to prove they are right when the real facts are inconvienent to their hypothosis.”

      So…Glenn, what color is the sky on your planet? The predictions of the science have come true in spades. If anything, things are significantly worse than was thought just 10 years ago.

      Like Agent, you have the McCarthyite talent of making vague accusations devoid of evidence. Please provide verifiable evidence that “data were tampered.” Just one link, please.

      • June 6, 2014 at 1:26 pm
        bob says:
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        • June 6, 2014 at 2:44 pm
          Libby says:
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          Oh really Bob? An article written by a JOURNALIST about a “study” put out by the NIPCC, an international network of climate scientists sponsored by three nonprofit organizations: Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, Science and Environmental Policy Project (SEPP), and The Heartland Institute? Are you for real?

          You don’t think the Koch Brothers (sponsor of NIPCC) has a dog in that fight?

          Try to find a study debunking climate change by a REPUTABLE scientific body, OK?? I doubt you’ll find one.

          • June 6, 2014 at 2:51 pm
            bob says:
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          • June 6, 2014 at 2:53 pm
            bob says:
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          • June 6, 2014 at 2:59 pm
            bob says:
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          • June 6, 2014 at 3:05 pm
            Libby says:
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            It doesn’t matter who FINANCED the study? Are you for real? Money can buy you any study you want. The numbers are NOT credible because of their origin. Period. End of discussion.

          • June 6, 2014 at 3:11 pm
            Libby says:
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            So now I’m a Nazi? Godwin’s law. I WIN!

          • June 6, 2014 at 3:35 pm
            Agent says:
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          • June 6, 2014 at 8:25 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Libby – “So now I’m a Nazi? Godwin’s law. I WIN!”

            LMAO, Libby. Yes, it’s Nazi Tourette’s. GOEBBLES! HIMMLER! HITLER! NAZI!

        • June 6, 2014 at 7:03 pm
          Reality_based_community says:
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          I’ll admit I literally laughed out loud at the “earth is cooling” headline. The eight warmest years on record occurred during the last 10 years. Take a look at this graph…closely. Does it look to you like “the earth is cooling?” The Heartland denialist conference is a joke. Can you point me to any of their sponsored “research” that has been published in a scientific peer-reviewed journal? Just one? Any? http://www.skepticalscience.com/new-remperature-reconstruction-vindicates.html

          • June 6, 2014 at 8:28 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Does this look like a “cooling earth?” http://www.climatecentral.org/news/australia-2014-heat-wave-picks-up-where-2013-left-off-16938

          • June 6, 2014 at 8:32 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Or this? “Each of the last three decades has been warmer than the previous one, the report adds, and the 2001 to 2010 decade is the warmest in history so far.” World Meteorological Organization and well know liberal propagandist. http://www.weather.com/news/science/environment/13-14-hottest-years-record-occurred-21st-century-wmo-20140324

          • June 6, 2014 at 8:39 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Or this? “Sea ice extent from one year to the next has jogged up and down, but the long-term trend is clear: it’s downward and dropping more steeply. From 1979-2001, the September minimum had dropped by about 7 percent per decade whereas the trend from 1979-2013 marks a loss of 14 percent per decade.”

          • June 6, 2014 at 8:41 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            I could go on for some time. But I guess when one of you number lived through one of the worst droughts on record and then denies it even occurred, there wouldn’t be much point.

  • June 4, 2014 at 4:41 pm
    InsGuy says:
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    Of course they will. How dare they provide something that supports a citizen’s way of life without warning them of the risks of using the products. Oh wait, the same citizen’s are now the plantiffs who took their Hummer Limos to the federal courthouse 300 miles away to sit in court.

    • June 5, 2014 at 10:55 am
      Agent says:
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  • June 4, 2014 at 4:49 pm
    Crain says:
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    Instead of investing so much effort in lawsuits, finger pointing, or blame games, this Republican would like to see practical solutions that will benefit all of mankind. I am not angry with Exxon. I don’t blame the environmental organizations for their extreme representations. We have a media where only the extremes get noticed simply because that is what gets attention. If some entity is going to sue contributors to global warming, how did the automakers not get lumped into the suit based upon them fighting the C.A.F.E. standards all of these years? What if we mandated energy companies to plant 1,000,000 trees per year on public lands (such as highway right of ways) which would reduce greenhouse gases, reduce snow on our highways (for those of us in the frozen tundra), create some wildlife habitat, and make more shade (to reduce temperature extremes)? We could do that in exchange for reduced fees for gas and drilling rights. We could mandate safer transportation of energy and allow tax credits when compliance with these rules is achieved. We could allow homeowners tax credits on their tax return for geo-thermal, instant water heat, and other energy savings that would be simple to institute and track. All of these would be relatively simple, practical, and easy to put into effect. We cannot force China or India not to pollute, they are sovereign nations. We can set an example that they will see as a positive model that works. There is no downside to cleaning up our beautiful planet if we don’t bankrupt our corporations and our middle class to pay for it.

    • June 5, 2014 at 10:47 am
      Libby says:
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      Crain! Finally!!! A Republican that makes sense! I totally agree with EVERYTHING that you said. I think I’m in love…

    • June 5, 2014 at 11:40 am
      ralph says:
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      quite possibly one of the best comments ever posted on this subject, Crain, and I’m deeply jealous I didn’t post it.

      Folks, THIS is the way you argue. Re-read the above post and point out where Crain called anyone any names, made fun of their home state, questioned someone’s intelligence, or mocked someone because of their religion, political affiliation, or sexuality. You won’t find anything, yet somehow Crain makes a point stronger than anyone else has.

      I take my hat off to you.

      • June 5, 2014 at 11:57 am
        Libby says:
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        Always the voice of reason, Ralph. I’m torn between two lovers right now!

        • June 5, 2014 at 1:10 pm
          GrowUp says:
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          Ralph is calling you out Libby. Re-read his post.

          • June 6, 2014 at 8:46 am
            Libby says:
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            He can call me out. He is a very reasonable fellow. I respect him. You? Not so much.

          • June 6, 2014 at 8:56 am
            KY jw says:
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            ralph is calling out all the other comments, not just Libby’s. I’m willing to be that Libby doesn’t feel chastised since she generally waits until someone insults her before generating the verbal abuse.

          • June 6, 2014 at 11:38 am
            Libby says:
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            Thanks, KY. At least you pay attention.

          • June 6, 2014 at 12:33 pm
            KY jw says:
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            Must be connected to the liberal gene. ;-)

      • June 5, 2014 at 3:03 pm
        It's about time says:
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        Yes Crain, wonderful post. I love good old fashion debates and to hear others opinions, but only when they are done so in a mature, respectful manner. I see both “sides” make the most derogatory statements to each other and it makes me not even want to hear anything else they have to say as I am so disgusted with the manner in which they speak to each other. Ralph and I have both pointed that out in other posts on IJ recently.

        In reality, I think everyone up here have had good opinions, bad opinions and some where I honestly am just not sure where I stand on the subject. But those who resort to name calling and putting others down for the religious and/or political beliefs, ect. just don’t end up making their point come across well.

        Great job and if some up here would take a lesson from you, we might get to a point where we could have some very good, reasonable debates on IJ. I refrain from responding with my opinions a lot due to the lack of respect some on this forum have unfortunately.

        Have a great day all, I wish the best everyone!

    • June 5, 2014 at 5:20 pm
      Agent says:
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      Good one Crain. Did you know the big tree companies already do extensive tree replanting to restock the forests they harvest? Weyerhauser is a leader doing that. I think they are being responsible, don’t you? They are also thinking they can harvest the new trees when they grow to the proper size.

    • June 6, 2014 at 8:57 am
      KY jw says:
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      Crain – well said. I am happy to agree with you.

  • June 4, 2014 at 5:00 pm
    Original Bob says:
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    I totally buy into climate change. I believe every time a cow farts 10 children starve to death in Africa despite all my leftovers mom shipped over to them. I thank O’Bama everyday for affordable health care and think it was great he help the Taliban out by trading five terrorists for their no longer welcome house guest. Quite the political poker player, our president – “I’ll see your deserter and raise you five murderers.” I feel like I’m living in a Grim fairy tale and the liberals are in charge of the sanitarium. I think the worst part of todays exchanges was reading that Libby parents had more than one child, I’m betting she wasn’t the first to arrive.

    • June 4, 2014 at 5:29 pm
      Agent says:
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    • June 4, 2014 at 10:28 pm
      Reality_based_community says:
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      Wow Original Bob. Fart jokes. Because that’s totally original, so you live up to your name for sure. And really elevates the conversation above a 12 yo level.

    • June 5, 2014 at 11:02 am
      Libby says:
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      This coming from a man that can’t even spell the President’s name correctly. That’s gotta be a credible source! LOL!!!

      I find it humerous that you all will criticize Obama (correct spelling BTW) for not closing Gitmo and then criticize him for releasing Gitmo prisoners. Just where did you think those prisoners were going to go upon closing? Leavenworth???

      And if you think I’m bad, you should hear my siblings. I’m moderate compared to them.

      You are anything BUT original, Bob.

      • June 5, 2014 at 11:16 am
        Original Bob says:
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      • June 5, 2014 at 11:35 am
        Libby says:
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        Huh? I care about what? You? Your thoughts? Your thoughts about me? Don’t make me laugh. You’re right. I don’t give a rat’s ASS about what you think. That last part was for Dave. Oh, I guess I should have said a rat’s ***. My bad. LOL!

  • June 4, 2014 at 5:20 pm
    ABM says:
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    • June 5, 2014 at 11:11 am
      Libby says:
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      I suggest you do the same.

  • June 4, 2014 at 5:26 pm
    Don't Call Me Shirley says:
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    The problem is that, if we could all get our electricity for free, from the sun, then a lot of rich people would have to find another way to fleece us.

    • June 4, 2014 at 5:57 pm
      Agent says:
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      Shirley, the rich liberals in DC are already fleecing us with high taxation, regulations out the kazoo and their promotion of climate change. By the way, where does the sun’s free energy come into play on numerous cloudy days or during a blizzard in the winter? What is your back up plan? That’s right, there isn’t one. Everybody just huddle down with a blanket over their shoulders and hope the sun comes out again.

      • June 5, 2014 at 11:10 am
        Libby says:
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        We’ll just all move to Texas with you, Agent. You don’t have cloudy days or blizzards, right?

        • June 5, 2014 at 12:36 pm
          Agent says:
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          Ask FFA about cloudy days, sub zero temperatures and blizzards and see how he feels about Global Warming. No, we don’t want any more liberals in Texas so stay up there in Pennsylvania, please.

          • June 6, 2014 at 2:31 pm
            Captain Planet says:
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            Weather vs. climate, Agent. I suggest you educate yourself before…well…too late.

          • June 6, 2014 at 2:37 pm
            Agent says:
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  • June 4, 2014 at 7:54 pm
    Reality_based_community says:
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    For those interested in the actual science as opposed to the denialist nonsense, the latest Cosmos has a pretty good summary of the evidence. http://www.cosmosontv.com/watch/270803523723

    • June 4, 2014 at 9:01 pm
      Dave says:
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      The latest Cosmos is left wing propaganda which you are obviously too biased to see.

      • June 4, 2014 at 9:13 pm
        Reality_based_community says:
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        Keep telling yourself that, Dave. As I recall, right-wingers claimed the original Cosmos, under the direction of Carl Sagan, was also “propaganda.” You represent about 1/3 of the US population that has completely abandoned reason and science, and taken a startling turn toward irrationalism.

        • June 4, 2014 at 9:30 pm
          Dave says:
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          As far as my abandoning science your tiny mind must have already forgotten my taking Libby to school on her moronic attempt to make scientific statements which were all wrong. That same tiny little mind which accused me of name calling of Libby where I used ****, but forgot she name called somebody else by dropping F-Bombs. But go ahead Reality, go ahead.

          • June 4, 2014 at 10:34 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            I’m sorry, your memory seems to be out of sync with my memory. Wait here, let me check the prior posts [time passes].

            ok, I checked the prior posts, and can’t seem to find anything that validates your statement. No F-bombs detected. I did find you getting basic 3rd grade science wrong by asserting that the earth doesn’t revolve around the sun. Also, a purely semantic argument regarding the meaning of the word “round” and how that word can’t possibly mean “spherical,” even though that’s the common parlance. I did see that you called her names without provocation, such as **** or bimbo. You really put the “mis” in misogynist.

          • June 5, 2014 at 11:32 am
            Libby says:
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            Dave – interesting. I notice you did NOT address my last posts to you, but here you are slandering me again.

            Just for the record, I HAVE dropped an F-bomb here or there and I freely admit to it. So what? At least I have the integrity and balls to SAY WHAT I MEAN. Are you saying that makes me less credible or a terrible person? I never said YOU were a f*cker although you have called me many names. ***** and **** being two of them. LOL!!!! Name calling doesn’t bother me. Go for it! I’ll still outsmart and out-think you any day of the week. Fool.

          • June 5, 2014 at 11:37 am
            Libby says:
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            I forgot. Snippity, Snip, Snap!!!

      • June 4, 2014 at 9:15 pm
        Reality_based_community says:
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        But perhaps your right, and noted astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, host of the current series, is wrong. What field is your PhD in again?

        • June 4, 2014 at 9:27 pm
          Dave says:
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          PhD doesn’t make him right on all issues.

          • June 4, 2014 at 10:36 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            It makes his opinion carry considerably more weight than your uninformed opinion based on absolutely no evidence or critical thought, though. I think I’ll go with Tyson on this.

          • June 5, 2014 at 11:38 am
            Libby says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            What? Not Rush Limbaugh? How totally alarmist and liberal of you, RBC!

          • June 5, 2014 at 7:46 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            Hmmmm…college dropout and draft evader Rush…noted physicist Tyson…Rush…Tyson…yes, it is a rather even match, isn’t it?

          • June 6, 2014 at 11:14 am
            Agent says:
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            Hey Dave, the Phd of insurance is CPCU. It stands for Can’t Produce, Can’t Underwrite. I have known several over the years and they are just eggheads who like to study and teach coverage, but can’t put a single piece of business on the books.

          • June 6, 2014 at 11:27 am
            Libby says:
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            Even I agree with that, Agent!

  • June 4, 2014 at 8:18 pm
    Reality_based_community says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    For those wishing to delve more deeply into the science, the site RealClimate is operated an Gavin Schmidt and other respected climatologists, and has a wealth of information. http://www.realclimate.org/

  • June 5, 2014 at 7:43 am
    JACK says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    FOLLOW the money…it’s always about the money. We the rich white country must pay for our progress out of the dark ages. Tax and spend, tax and spend…..in other words redistribute. It’s that simple guys. Any other explanation is delusional. V is greater than A.

    • June 5, 2014 at 11:50 am
      Libby says:
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      You should know, Jack. Aren’t you the privileged white man that lives in a gated community? Before you call me racist, those were YOUR words. Not mine.

      • June 5, 2014 at 2:32 pm
        JACK says:
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        I am white and privileged. But its a case of being born white and working my way to privilege. In 2005 I made $24k a year with 3 kids and 2 house payments and my wife stayed home to take raise the children. I make over 10x that now and she still stays home to raise the children. Life is Good as they say. But if you think my skin color has anything to do with it, YOU are the racist. Stick your white privilege philosophy up for libtard ass.

        • June 5, 2014 at 2:51 pm
          Agent says:
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          I agree Jack. Those of us that worked our butt off for success are demonized by the libtards and we are told we are stupid, racist and every other name in the books. Most of these leftist posters are envious and are employees who never had the gumption to start and run a business, pay no company bills, make payroll etc and they couldn’t sell their way out of a paper bag.

          • June 5, 2014 at 3:22 pm
            JACK says:
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            I agree Agent. They think I have a problem with greed when it’s the libtards trying to take something they didn’t earn. Useful idiots they are for the true criminals in DC. The middle class is about to be destroyed and the libtards are sheep going along with it.

          • June 6, 2014 at 2:45 pm
            Agent says:
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            Hey Jack, an email buddy of mine sent me the following which should upset some of the leftists on this blog and I am sure should earn me 30 dislikes by the end of the day. Title is – LIBERAL UTOPIA DOES EXIST
            A “Liberal Paradise” would be a place where everybody has guaranteed employment, free Comprehensive Health Care,free education, free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities and only Law Enforcement has guns. Believe it or not, such a place does indeed exist…… it’s called prison.

            Sheriff Joe Arpaio
            Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office, Phoenix, Az

    • June 6, 2014 at 5:11 pm
      Agent says:
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      As long as we are following the money, let’s follow the Carbon Exchange that is the dream of Al Gore and his colleagues. Sell those carbon credits and make companies pay outrageous prices to operate. That should help the employment picture, don’t you think?

      • June 9, 2014 at 8:43 am
        Libby says:
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        Al Gore is not in the business of creating jobs. His focus is on the environment. Much as your focus is on yourself.

  • June 5, 2014 at 9:35 am
    KY jw says:
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    It appears, based on the comments here, that the primary reason for people to dispute climate change is caused by man is money. It will cost more to reduce the emissions. Therefore, any mitigation effort must be stopped, because we can’t afford it or it will put people out of business/work. There will be no agreement on this topic. Why waste the time arguing?

    I guess since it won’t be my problem when the earth becomes a wasteland (in however many thousands of years), I won’t worry about it either.

    • June 5, 2014 at 10:07 am
      Agent says:
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      KY, The country is already $17 Trillion in debt due to the spending habits of the left including RINO’s. The question is, do we go to $25 Trillion to do the left’s bidding if the rest of the world is not doing their part in cleaning up the environment? Should we completely bankrupt the country and make it Cuba or Venezuela? Is that the future we want our kids to have? We are certainly headed there in the very near future. The rest of the world is laughing at our stupidity every day of the week.

      • June 5, 2014 at 11:54 am
        Libby says:
        Hot debate. What do you think?
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        I told you so, folks! Agent, you forgot Benghazi, illegal immigrants, and whatever the latest “scandal” is. That’s enough with which to frighten our children. Leave climate change out of it!!

        And KY, I don’t disagree with you, but it’s too much fun to “argue” with these dolts. It’s really not even a fair fight most of the time. But it helps the day go by.

        Still waiting to hear from you, Dave. Cat got your ******* tongue?

        • June 5, 2014 at 12:41 pm
          Agent says:
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          Libby, the list of impeachable offenses of this President and his administration are too long to put on a post. This administration is one huge scandal, one after another and you were so stupid, you voted for him twice. That is reason enough to not take your posts seriously.

          • June 5, 2014 at 1:16 pm
            KY jw says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            If there are “impeachable offenses”, why hasn’t any congressman started the process?

          • June 5, 2014 at 1:44 pm
            Julie says:
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            Because leaving Obama in office is doing the GOP more good;l during the next elections the GOP will see major benefits and major wins from his catastrophic failures.

          • June 5, 2014 at 2:46 pm
            Agent says:
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            KY, can you really be that naïve? Haven’t you seen the chorus from the left accusing the Republicans of “racism” over and over for 6 years if they disagreed with the President on anything? Impeaching this President is far more difficult because of the racism issue. It doesn’t matter how bad his policies are or if he is ruling like a dictator using his phone and pen and the mainstream media is so far in the tank, they will lead the charge against any Republican filing charges.

          • June 5, 2014 at 3:07 pm
            Agent says:
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            Speaking of Impeachment, just in today’s Townhall.com, there is an article about the release of the 5 worst Taliban commanders in exchange for a deserter US soldier and it was done without the required 30 day notice to Congress. Obama is contemplating releasing another one as well. Senator Feinstein (D) is outraged and Lindsay Graham (R) says if he does it again, he will call for Impeachment. This President thinks he can do whatever he wants without consequences. Perhaps he will get his wish and be Impeached after all.

          • June 5, 2014 at 3:09 pm
            txmouthbreatherboogereatertx says:
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            Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

          • June 5, 2014 at 3:14 pm
            Julie says:
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            I disagree txmouthbreakerboogereatertx. I believe that the liberal agenda which forces the poor to rely on the government and keeps them on welfare for generations is racist.

          • June 6, 2014 at 9:06 am
            KY jw says:
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            If there is evidence, then the race of the president shouldn’t matter.

            If those who have the evidence are scared, that tells me their “evidence” is suspect and they are unwilling to take a chance of losing.

            Since Obama’s approval rating is so low, would anyone really cry “racism”?

          • June 6, 2014 at 11:29 am
            Libby says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            Good point, KY. I have a feeling there is no real “evidence.” After all, the GOP’s main objective was to make Obama a one-term president. I’m sure they’d jump at the chance to impeach him.

      • June 5, 2014 at 7:50 pm
        Reality_based_community says:
        Hot debate. What do you think?
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        Not following. None of the climate change mitigation proposals require additional government spending, so your argument doesn’t appear to make any sense, Agent.

        • June 6, 2014 at 11:08 am
          Agent says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          What an idiotic statement Reality! That seems to be your theme. Do you think what the EPA has been doing to business for the past 6 years does not cost the American people anything? It is the private sector that is bearing the burden of all this nonsense. What if the company you were working for was put out of business because of the EPA and the company’s inability to afford or comply with the onerous regulation? Do you think that the cost of goods and services will go down any in the near future because of the meddling of the Federal Government? Do you think your taxes will go down under any Progressive government? Wise up, please.

          • June 6, 2014 at 11:33 am
            Libby says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            Well, Agent, we saw what happened in West, Texas with no meddling of the Federal Government. I think some meddling (State of Federal) would have been welcomed by the citizens of West.

          • June 6, 2014 at 12:11 pm
            Agent says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            Libby, why not ask Wvagt about what the Federal Government is doing to his state? In the near future, their unemployment rate may top 30%.

          • June 6, 2014 at 7:19 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            Agent – ” It is the private sector that is bearing the burden of all this nonsense”

            It is nonsense. Why it’s downright anti-freedom to place limits on the amount of arsenic a company can dump into the water supplies; or how much they can irradiate their employees; or the level of destruction they can inflict on natural habitat; how much oil they can dump into the oceans; etc.

            BTW, I was responding to your own assertion that dealing with climate change would increase government debt. That was your assertion, unless I misunderstood. I don’t think I did, though, given your statement explicitly claiming that government debt would increase by $25 trillion [or some number you pulled out of your arse]. To wit: “KY, The country is already $17 Trillion in debt due to the spending habits of the left including RINO’s. The question is, do we go to $25 Trillion to do the left’s bidding if the rest of the world is not doing their part in cleaning up the environment?”

            Yes, there will be cost “imposed” on private entities that pollute. In the absence of action, those same entities impose even higher costs on the rest of us.

        • June 9, 2014 at 5:57 pm
          Agent says:
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          Libby, no real evidence? Do you really consider yourself educated and one that pays attention? Do you still insist that this President has been honest and trustworthy with the American People? Do you think all the Impeachable offenses mean nothing? Do you mirror Hillary & Reid’s statement – What possible difference does it make now? If you do, we will have our answer on where you are coming from.

          • June 10, 2014 at 8:57 am
            Libby says:
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            Yes, Agent. I believe there is no real evidence to support impeachment or it would have otherwise been done. The House would jump on the chance to bring charges if they thought they would stick.

            As far as him being honest and trustworthy, what does that have to do with impeachment? That hardly rises to the definition of “high crimes and misdemeanors.” If it did, most Presidents would have been impeached. (Read my lips. No new taxes.)

            So your pathetic calls for impeachment are moot at this point in time.

    • June 5, 2014 at 6:47 pm
      Reality_based_community says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      “I guess since it won’t be my problem when the earth becomes a wasteland (in however many thousands of years), I won’t worry about it either.”

      I’m not sure if you’re joking or not (it’s hard to tell sometimes from text), but the time frame were are looking at isn’t thousands of years. At present CO2 emissions levels, things are going to seriously go south in a matter of decades. We already have experienced serious climate dislocations. Things will unquestionably get significantly worse in my daughter’s lifetime.

      But you’re correct on one point: that attitude of many is “to hell with future generations. What have they ever done for us?”

      • June 6, 2014 at 9:08 am
        KY jw says:
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        yes, I was being facetious.

        • June 6, 2014 at 9:30 am
          Agent says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          KY, in case you haven’t been staying up with events for the past 6 years, the following is a short list of the protectors of the President and who would be the attack dogs against any move for Impeachment playing the race card. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Maxine Waters, Sheila Jackson Lee, Conyers, ABC,CBS,NBC, MSNBC, CNN, Moveon.org, Media Matters, NY Times and every other liberal leaning newspaper. I probably left off quite a few, but they would drive the debate and crucify any Republican filing the Articles of Impeachment and would be screaming “Racism” at the top of their lungs. They have consistently done it for 6 years and would do it again only louder.

          • June 6, 2014 at 12:38 pm
            KY jw says:
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            They could certainly try, but if the evidence is valid and legal to put in a court, they have no argument. Either stand up for what you believe, or sit down and shut up.

          • June 6, 2014 at 3:17 pm
            Agent says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            KY, I have been scratching my head for at least 4 years now awaiting someone with a back bone to stand up and be counted and file Articles of Impeachment. Obama’s abuse of the Constitution and disregard for the laws of the land is being manifested almost daily. What a disaster and the folks on the left blindly follow him into the abyss. If Impeachment is not possible, perhaps the mid terms will make him such a lame duck, he will just vacation and play golf the last two years. If he does that, he won’t do as much damage.

          • June 9, 2014 at 7:56 am
            KY jw says:
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            I don’t think it would be racist to impeach Obama. What ever the evidence is, it should be put to the test. Illegal is illegal, and crimes should be punished.

            However, I think Julie hit the nail on the head when she said “Because leaving Obama in office is doing the GOP more good.”

  • June 5, 2014 at 12:36 pm
    Dan says:
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    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    • June 5, 2014 at 3:41 pm
      Agent says:
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      Julie, you are the voice of reason. The libtards who have instituted all their welfare programs, food stamps and any number of other “entitlements” are the real racists because they are not giving the poor a chance to better themselves, get educated etc. They want to keep them dumbed down and dependent on the government and that is extreme racism. They also seem to forget that a Republican (Lincoln) ended slavery.

      • June 5, 2014 at 3:58 pm
        txmouthbreatherboogereatertx says:
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        Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

        • June 5, 2014 at 4:25 pm
          Agent says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          So you are still showing off your Common Core education boogereater? You may want to make an appointment with a good Psychiatrist so you can get to the root of your hatred problem. Someone might think you are one of those OWS types who hate anything and everything this country was founded on. By the way, why didn’t Lincoln declare himself a Democrat if he felt like you? I am sure he is rolling over in his grave to see how this nation has turned out and how the State of Illinois is under Progressive Democrats. They are the laughing stock of the country.

          • June 5, 2014 at 5:04 pm
            txmouthbreatherboogereatertx says:
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            You got me Agent. Is that what your home schooling taught you? No hatred here except everything this country was founded on is exploited for profit rather than for the good of the people. Mega Churches are tax shelters, many run any number of the “charities” you talk about which recruit massive numbers of tax abating people many of which our taxes pay for them and their families, (ie) military. The flag has become a coded symbol used by the Fox and Friends Cartel to show “who really plays ball. You know, the catchers and pitchers. As I’ve stated before, go see your Proctologist, your head is up your ass.

          • June 5, 2014 at 5:38 pm
            Agent says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            I take that back booger, you don’t even have a common core education. By the way, my grandkids had home schooling from kindergarten to the 4th grade and my daughter did an excellent job with them. They were very far advanced from the public school education that was offered in their town. Now, they are both straight A students in a very good school. So much for your slam at home schooling. Please do everyone a favor and check into an institution so you can get help.

          • June 12, 2014 at 3:59 pm
            txmouthbreatherboogereatertx says:
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            Straight A’s in Texico? Can’t be that hard when kids learn how to count by watching NASCAR. Poor Texican kids think the first number is 3. Go Dale!

      • June 6, 2014 at 9:11 am
        KY jw says:
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        I disagree with the statement that “entitlements” keep people dumbed down and dependent. If you want to improve your life, you can. Entitlements can help. It’s a matter of will to work at it, not the fact that entitlements are available.

        I am very grateful for the help I received.

        • June 6, 2014 at 10:58 am
          Agent says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          Actually KY, you misinterpreted the post. It is the libtards who want to keep the poor from advancing. Entitlements are just one of their tools. Instead of a hand up to help someone in need, they put in a whole culture of “entitlements” with no end in sight. Why work if you can get a government check every month? This has extended over several generations now. A “Nanny” state has been created. Now, after the 99 weeks of unemployment, the lazy just trot down to Social Security and get on disability and that is for life.

          • June 6, 2014 at 11:36 am
            Libby says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            “It is the libtards who want to keep the poor from advancing.”

            That remark is so offensive I don’t even have words for it. Do you really think that is the objective of the so-called “libtards?” If so, you have a very sick outlook on people and a very over-active imagination.

          • June 6, 2014 at 12:22 pm
            Agent says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            Libby, were you taught in school about “The Great Society” or the “War on Poverty” as extolled by wonderful LBJ, one of the most Progressive Presidents in history? He actually put the Social Security Trust Fund in the General Fund to expand the “entitlement society” he envisioned. Trillions of dollars later, did it eliminate poverty in this country? The latest info out today is over 92 million Americans do not work. Yes, we have an entitlement society whether you want to believe it or not. It is a way of life for millions and the Progressive Democratic Party is the champion of it. As long as people are dependent and like it that way, they will keep on voting Democratic and the country will continue to sink as an economic power. Please provide one valid thing that has been done recently to improve the lot of average Americans.

          • June 6, 2014 at 12:37 pm
            Libby says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            You should say “libtard politicians” then and not lump all liberals in with those that want re-election. I do not feel that way and I am a libtard, as you would call it.

            I do feel social programs (I refuse to say entitlements) are important, but I not condone the generations of welfare families we have created. I think drug testing should be mandatory and other limitations instituted. I do not want to pay for able-bodied people to sit at home and collect a check I am paying for. Because yes, Agent, believe it or not I PAY TAXES, TOO.

            So just as you don’t want us calling all you neocons racists, we don’t want to be accused of condoning bad behavior. There is far too much use of the broad brush on here. That’s what causes anger and results in insulting and derogatory comments.

          • June 6, 2014 at 12:43 pm
            KY jw says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            No misinterpretation here.

            You believe entitlements cause people to stop working.

            I believe entitlements will help people who only need a hand up.

            Too many people work their way out of poverty with those entitlements for me to believe it is not a legitimate possibility for everyone. Those that don’t are many things, including lazy. But that doesn’t mean their children *can’t* get out and succeed.

          • June 6, 2014 at 7:34 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Agent – ” The latest info out today is over 92 million Americans do not work. Yes, we have an entitlement society…”

            Who do you think those 92 million people are, Agent. Let me help – retirees, housewives and husbands, full-time students, and the like comprise the vast majority of those “not in the labor force” as economist term it. Are you suggesting that nobody should retire, go to school, or stay home with the kids? That these folks are all part of the “entitlement culture?” Really?

          • June 9, 2014 at 8:02 am
            KY jw says:
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            I generally don’t respond when one of my posts is disliked because I think everyone has the right to their opinion.

            However, some people disagree with my statement that people work their way out of poverty. Yes it is possible because I DID IT. I’ve been there, accepted the government’s help (for me AND my children), graduated from college, paid back ALL my student loans, and am a successful contributing member of society.

            Bite. Me.

          • June 9, 2014 at 8:48 am
            Libby says:
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            KY – You go girl!

          • June 9, 2014 at 9:18 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            KY – “However, some people disagree with my statement that people work their way out of poverty. Yes it is possible because I DID IT.”

            And good for you. Myself, I worked my way up from nothing to a state of extreme poverty (Groucho Marx). I’d bet considerably money that most of these conservative powers have taken considerably amounts from the public trough. Did they go to school on student loans or other government assistance, or were they able to pay out of pocket. If so, did they attend a heavily subsidized public university or school? I wonder…

          • June 10, 2014 at 8:59 am
            Libby says:
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            They’re the first in line for “theirs.” Look at red states v. blue states and how much they suck off the federal teet. They don’t pull their own weight or pay their fair share.

    • June 6, 2014 at 12:21 pm
      Libby says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      Dan – not quite sure whether clueless means they do or don’t believe the science. If it’s the latter, you should know that Empo and Destro are both right out of college and they are adamant there is no climate change issue.

      Not to mention I doubt you’ll find many 65+ on here, as when I am that age I will be blissfully retired and IJ will be the furthest thing from my mind.

      • June 6, 2014 at 3:00 pm
        Agent says:
        Hot debate. What do you think?
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        KY, I believe entitlements handed out by the bushel basket by Progressive politicians has led to a culture of entitlement. For every one person who works their way out of poverty, we are replacing them with 10 who will not seek work and who know how to use the system to their benefit. Does 92 million people not working resonate with you? How will this country survive without a vibrant working populace? I don’t know about you, but I am tired of supporting lazy slobs out there. I don’t mind providing a helping hand to people who are down on their luck and need temporary assistance, but the permanent lazy are nothing but sleazebags. They should be given a drug test and if they fail, cut them off. If they don’t want to work, give them trash duty to earn their keep. Anything but let them watch their flat screens and do nothing.

        • June 9, 2014 at 8:06 am
          KY jw says:
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          I have no problem with making people earn their keep. I certainly approve of drug testing as another tool. I will not argue that there are lazy, good for nothing types taking advantage of the system. I just don’t think it’s a 10 to 1 ratio.

          • June 9, 2014 at 10:04 am
            Agent says:
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            JW, perhaps you should go down to the local Social Security Office sometime and see all the freeloaders there to sign up for disability.

      • June 6, 2014 at 4:26 pm
        EmpoftheEarth says:
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        Libby…it is always entertaining to hear you spout off. Let’s see…Climate changes all the time…at one time, the Sahara was lush, now its desert… The issue I have is the assertion that man is somehow a heavy influencer of the climate. And, geologic activity, solar activity, tilt of the earth’s axis all have plays over the millions of years. Did you know that Antarctica used to be near the equator, but due to plate tectonics, shifted to its current position?

        • June 6, 2014 at 4:43 pm
          Libby says:
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          I never made the assertion that man was responsible for it. Only that it was happening at a higher rate than has been the “norm” for the past 400,000 years.

          You guys just argue with me because I’m libby. That’s all. And it’s very immature.

        • June 6, 2014 at 5:44 pm
          Agent says:
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          Let’s see Empo if we can figure this out. North Africa has been basically a desert since man has been on earth. I guess all those Pharoah’s had something to do with that. They must have had some industry contributing to CO2 back then or were their horses and camels responsible?

        • June 7, 2014 at 11:22 am
          Reality_based_community says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          EOE – “The issue I have is the assertion that man is somehow a heavy influencer of the climate. And, geologic activity, solar activity, tilt of the earth’s axis all have plays over the millions of years.”

          And did you know that all of the items you mention are very well understood by scientists (obviously, since you wouldn’t have mentioned them)? And *all* of them are known *not* to account for current climate change? On net, those factors have an overall *cooling* impact, not *warming* So I don’t really see how your argument is relevant to the science of anthropocentric climate change.

          • June 9, 2014 at 8:51 am
            Libby says:
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            RBC – Empo loves to cut me down by saying I’m a “know it all” when it is he that thinks he understands science and obviously hasn’t a clue. He’s just jumping on the GOP “No Climate Change” bandwagon because for some reason he thinks it makes him look cool or intelligent. Poor thing. He doesn’t know it only makes him look like a fool.

          • June 9, 2014 at 2:41 pm
            EmpoftheEarth says:
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            Reality, Im going to respond to your post and not Libby who is very infantile in her approach to topics and folks that are 180 degrees in their mindset to her.

            Anyways, my intent was to say that these factors have a bigger impact on climate change than anything “man” has done. I never once in my post stated “warming.” Please point that out and correct me if I am wrong.

            To summarize, the earth has gone through periods of cooling and warming throughout its geologic history. Man is fickle in trying to measure changes in climate on a very insignificant time scale of a few years. My point was to show that any place can go through a drastic change in climate and perhaps it was poor of me to reference 2 points, where the Sahara region went from lush to desert, and Antarctica from warm to frozen wasteland.

          • June 9, 2014 at 3:21 pm
            Libby says:
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            So you’re going to insult me while “not” responding to me and I’m the infant here? LOL!!!

            And since when is 400,000 years an insignificant time scale of a few years?

            http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence

          • June 9, 2014 at 9:26 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Emp, Libby is absolutely correct. I don’t know what you consider “a few years,” but climate reconstructions, as well as measurements of atmospheric content, extend back to hundreds of thousands of years. Since humans (barely) survived the last ice age, we’ve had a remarkably stable climate that has allowed human civilization to flourish. What do you think will happen if the climate is seriously disrupted? The last time the planet experienced excessive greenhouse gas emissions, sparked by volcanic eruptions that led to further feedback forcings, such as the melting of permafrost, 95% of all species on the plant became extinct. There is now good evidence that the planet is experiencing another mass extinction. I’m not sure what your point is in suggesting the “planet has always gone through environmental changes.” We are going through another one. The change from the last ice age to the current period was just 5 degrees C over many thousands of years. We may exceed that in just the next 100 years.

      • June 9, 2014 at 11:22 am
        Agent says:
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        So RBC, you accuse Conservatives of being “Climate Change Denialists”. Are you one of those “unemployment denialists” who believe the unemployment rate put out by our bogus Labor Dept of 6.3% is accurate? Do you think they count all the people that have given up looking? Do you think they count all the deadbeats who have gone to SS Disability after they have used up their 99 weeks? This is all a political game to liberals to try to mask how bad their economic policies actually are. By the way, how about that 1% contraction to the economy last month? Is that a sign we have recovered from the recession?

        • June 9, 2014 at 9:37 pm
          Reality_based_community says:
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          No, I’m a statistician that is rather familiar with the BLS and how they measure unemployment. Individuals not currently seeking employment are not considered unemployed – otherwise, you’d be including retirees, people staying at home to tend to children, full-time students, etc. It really wouldn’t be meaningful to consider those folks as “unemployed.” Yes, it also includes so-called “discouraged workers,” those individuals that would like a job but have given up looking. However, the BLS does attempt to measure those workers as well, which you can find on their website. Primarily, it’s measured by the overall size of the labor force (which includes the unemployed), which has contracted for sure. You are really frickin’ paranoid – “why them thar climate scientists makin’ up all them numbers!” “the bls makin’ up the unemployment rate!” The BLS has used a consistent methodology to calculate unemployment since they’ve been tracking unemployment. In fact, they are considered they “gold standard” in terms of methods around the planet. And no, I don’t think we are anywhere near out of the Bush recession, not until unemployment drops below 4%, and preferably around 3%. Of course, with an obstructionist Congress, I don’t expect that to happen any time soon. It’s not like the president can wave a magic wand and improve anything without legislation.

          • June 10, 2014 at 9:03 am
            Libby says:
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            Agent supposedly has an Economics degree, but he’s not very savvy when it comes to statistics. Of course, he could have gotten his degree before the invented statistics…

          • June 10, 2014 at 9:47 am
            Agent says:
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            So here is something to put in your pipe. How is it that we have the lowest labor participation rate in nearly 40 years? Is that a sign of recovery for working people? How about the economy contracting last month instead of growing? Is that a sign that Progressivism is working? Overall, I suppose you are satisfied that the anemic 1-2% growth under Obama is a good thing. Don’t give me the Bush bashing again. That doesn’t work after 6 years.

          • June 10, 2014 at 11:09 am
            Libby says:
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            Here’s a pretty interesting and unbiased look at the reasons for the drop in labor participation. Of course, Agent, it doesn’t fit into your rhetoric so I doubt you will even look at it. Or you will discredit the source…

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/01/09/how-much-is-obama-to-blame-for-the-worst-labor-participation-rate-in-40-years/

          • June 10, 2014 at 6:44 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Agent, tell me what is in Obama’s power to do if the Congress obstructs any possible move that might improve the economy. As far as I can tell, House republicans deliberately sabotaged the recovery to make Obama a “failed president.” It worked in the sense that they sabotaged the economy, but Obama was still somehow reelected.

  • June 5, 2014 at 3:45 pm
    Farmer John says:
    Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
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    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    • June 5, 2014 at 6:52 pm
      Reality_based_community says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      Because it is absolutely contrary to their ideology. They absolutely cannot admit to climate change, as to solve it requires some sort of governmental or collective action. This runs counter to their idea that the “free market” solves everything, not realizing that climate change is a creation of the free market. They will absolutely never admit that. They would rather the planet go up in smoke than admit they are wrong on that.

      Same motivation with evolution. The fact is, one party has nearly institutionalized and irrationalism that is extremely hostile to science. Remember the last primary season? Front runners were trying to outdo each other in vilifying our institutions of higher learning (as elitist, liberal, secular, etc). To them, science itself is now a form of liberalism to be rejected.

    • June 6, 2014 at 4:06 pm
      EmpoftheEarth says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      Farmer John, who created the first organism? Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg?

      • June 6, 2014 at 4:59 pm
        Agent says:
        Hot debate. What do you think?
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        You are asking a farmer about chicken and eggs Empo? Why would he know? He is one of those farmers getting crop subsidies for not growing crops that the Agriculture Dept has been handing out for decades. By the way, why is a farmer on an insurance blog to start with?

    • June 10, 2014 at 12:42 pm
      Agent says:
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      Actually Libby, the article makes my point. Why can’t people in the prime working ages get jobs in this economy if there are so many people retiring? There should be openings for all who want to work. They can’t explain why people are taking disability instead of trying to work. ????? Answer: They don’t want to work. You should hear some of my Commercial insureds talk about trying to hire people to fill needed positions. It is a joke and they literally cannot find the workers that are willing to work. The unemployed like to sit around and collect their benefits.

      • June 10, 2014 at 1:36 pm
        Libby says:
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        Agent – you are assuming that for every person that retires, that opens up a job. That hasn’t been the case for years. Employers are just expecting employees to do more with less these days.

        But you’re right, many people on unemployment are not incentivized to find work while they collect benefits. Me? I made alot more money working that collecting, so I wanted to go back to work. Not the case with the more menial positions.

        • June 10, 2014 at 3:49 pm
          Agent says:
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          What a slam against retirees! Do you think all the retirees were doing menial jobs and therefore it was not necessary to replace them? Companies have positions open and they cannot fill them with people that really want to go back to work. Also, the longer they stay out of work, the more their skills degenerate. A lot of these people just want to download apps on their cell and have no intention of getting back in the workforce.

          • June 10, 2014 at 4:05 pm
            Libby says:
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            It wasn’t a slam against retirees, Agent. What’s wrong with you?

          • June 11, 2014 at 10:10 am
            Agent says:
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            Libby, you have yet to answer why this economy is not creating jobs for people that want to work. Several million have given up and gone on the government dole. When we have an entitlement society, the lazy use that as a crutch, blame the Capitalist system for not giving them the opportunity and their lazy gene takes over.

          • June 11, 2014 at 12:55 pm
            Libby says:
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            That’s it, Agent. Half the country is lazy and has their hand out for the government dole.

            Happy?

          • June 11, 2014 at 7:15 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            I’m not sure what this has to do with climate change, but this is false: Agent – “Companies have positions open and they cannot fill them with people that really want to go back to work.”

            There simply aren’t enough jobs for about 60% of job seekers. The ratio of jobs to seekers is about 1 to 3. So, really, what are you on about?

          • June 12, 2014 at 9:15 am
            Libby says:
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            Agent will tell you on one hand that unemployment is rampant and that the president has done nothing to spur the economy and create jobs.

            Then on the other hand he will tell you there are plenty of jobs, but people just don’t want to work because they’re lazy and on the government dole thanks to Obama’s “entitlement” society.

            He doesn’t know what he’s on about.

  • June 6, 2014 at 4:04 pm
    EmpoftheEarth says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    Sorry guys…have not been able to post since I have been busy at work the few days hard at work so my taxes can go towards paying for Libby to spend her day as Insurance Journal Board Moderator.

    BTW, Libby, Leavenworth is for military incarceration only.

    Obama is my hero…he knows everything. Agent, Dave…stop crticizing Obama. I am not sure why you are complaining about the 1 soldier for 5 Talibanites…I’m sure he thought it was 1 for 1, but you’ll have to excuse his incompetency in regards to math since he originally thought there were 57 states in the US.

    • June 6, 2014 at 4:14 pm
      Libby says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      Newsflash, Empo. I work for a living and have for the last 40 years of my life. I’ve probably paid more in taxes than you’ve made in your entire “career.”

      And I know all about Leavenworth, having lived on post for four years – grade 3 through 6. Could see the penetentiary from my bedroom window.

      • June 6, 2014 at 4:22 pm
        EmpoftheEarth says:
        Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
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        Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

        • June 6, 2014 at 4:46 pm
          Libby says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          Empo – and your knowledge is apparantly even more limited as an adult. Leavenworth’s penitentiary is a medium-security United States federal prison for male inmates in Kansas. It is operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons, a division of the United States Department of Justice.

          It’s not a military prison, you moron.

    • June 6, 2014 at 4:16 pm
      Libby says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      And just for your education, Guantanemo is a United States military prison located within Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. It is also a military installation.

      So, that’s your lesson for today. Try some research before you spout off, grasshopper.

      • June 6, 2014 at 4:20 pm
        EmpoftheEarth says:
        Hot debate. What do you think?
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        Uhh right…difference being is that Leavenworth is limited to offenders from the US military, and Guantanamo is for “foreign combatants.”

        Is Guantanamo in Guatemala? Derr

        • June 6, 2014 at 4:51 pm
          Libby says:
          Hot debate. What do you think?
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          Wrong. Leavenworth is a FEDERAL penitentiary, not a military penitentiary. Guantanamo is a detention camp for “extraordinarily dangerous prisoners.” Nothing about “foreign combatants.”

          Your ignorance and arrogance are astounding. So prevalent in the youngsters of today…. Sigh.

        • June 9, 2014 at 8:14 am
          KY jw says:
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          Did you even look up Leavenworth?

          • June 9, 2014 at 8:53 am
            Libby says:
            Hot debate. What do you think?
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            No. He doesn’t need to. He just spouts off and when he’s called on it, he disappears.

    • June 6, 2014 at 5:02 pm
      Agent says:
      Hot debate. What do you think?
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      Perhaps he thinks Bergdahl was an Army “Corpseman”. His wonderful National Security Advisor Susan Rice of Benghazi spin/lie fame thinks the boy served with honor and distinction. Can these people really be that stupid? Liberalism has a very serious flaw. They cannot accept they can be wrong on any issue and immediately go on the attack when someone disagrees with their ill thought out position.

  • June 6, 2014 at 11:27 pm
    Reality_based_community says:
    Hot debate. What do you think?
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    btw, the following is the form that rational debate usually assumes:

    A. I’m making a proposition or assertion.
    B. This is my rebuttal to your proposition.
    C. This is a refutation of you rebuttal, presented with cogency and solid evidence.

    Not:

    D. Here’s a totally unrelated assertion I’ll make, plus call you a libtard.

    “D:” doesn’t usually win many points in a normal debate/discussion. It just makes you look rather foolish.

  • June 10, 2014 at 10:08 am
    Always Amazed says:
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    Told ya.

    http://www.climatedepot.com/

    • June 10, 2014 at 11:12 am
      Libby says:
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      Seriously? You actually believe this is a credible source? Please point out which of these articles was authored by a published scientist not on the Koch payroll and then I’ll take it seriously.

      Is this how all you guys get your information? Shocking and very scary…

    • June 10, 2014 at 12:31 pm
      Agent says:
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      Good one Always. Of course Libby and Reality don’t like it because it shoots down their agenda.

      • June 10, 2014 at 1:39 pm
        Libby says:
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        I don’t like it because it’s alot of undocumented hooey. I could create a website and place all kinds of ficticious articles on it, too. It doesn’t make it true. You guys must be really gullible. Or lazy. Or stupid. I can’t decide which or maybe it’s a combination of all three.

        You can’t turn a sow’s ear into a silk purse. The stuff on that website has suey written all over it.

        • June 10, 2014 at 3:45 pm
          Agent says:
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          So it is more credible if it comes from your sources that lied about their data, resigned in disgrace and admitted to falsifying data. Who has the suey on it?

          • June 10, 2014 at 4:07 pm
            Libby says:
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            It’s more credible if it comes from an accredited SCIENTIST. Not a journalist. Not a blogger. Not an oil company executive.

            There was no scientist that resigned in disgrace, no matter how many times you say so. And data was not falsified. It was an acceptable, scientific method that was used.

            You can jump up and down with a megaphone with these accusations, Agent. It still won’t make them true.

          • June 10, 2014 at 6:27 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            Libby – “It’s more credible if it comes from an accredited SCIENTIST. Not a journalist. Not a blogger. Not an oil company executive.

            There was no scientist that resigned in disgrace, no matter how many times you say so. And data was not falsified. It was an acceptable, scientific method that was us”

            Libby, he goes beyond just a single case of falsified data (for which he *still* can’t produce a solitary shred of evidence, not even the name of the scientist that supposedly falsified the data). However, Agent is essentially implying that there is a vast conspiracy that is planetary in scope, that controls all of the universities and the scientific publications, and that thousands of scientists have secretly plotted to manufacture a scientific consensus. Because that’s what one has to believe at this point to believe that the science is a “hoax.” And one has to believe all of that without a solitary shred of evidence. This is Alex Jones conspiracy theory level stuff – perhaps the reptilians are controlling the scientists?

          • June 11, 2014 at 12:57 pm
            Libby says:
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            Well, you know the neocons and their conspiracy theories….

          • June 11, 2014 at 7:17 pm
            Reality_based_community says:
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            They really do. When do we get to hear about HAARP controlling the weather, or chemtrails, I wonder?

      • June 10, 2014 at 6:22 pm
        Reality_based_community says:
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        Agent – “Of course Libby and Reality don’t like it because it shoots down their agenda.”

        Still lacking in credible sources, so you cite Marc Marano’s website.

        “Although he has no scientific background, Morano has declared that the science of manmade climate change is “collapsing.” He has called global warming a “con job” and said that climate scientists “deserve to be publicly flogged.” Morano often appears on Fox News to spread misinformation on climate change, and Rush Limbaugh has repeatedly used his material to attack climate scientists.”

        Can you cite a credible climate scientists that has published research on climate change? (for example, Michael Mann. cha ching! Another $10).



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