1. Because of the nature of the pipeline and the physics of jet fuel, the “terrorist” plot was “technically infeasible.”
2. The investigation has been going on for a year and a half. The US Attorney knows, or should know, that her description of the possible devestation is hyperbole.
3. The real danger was economic. It was technically possible to cause a disruption in the jet fuel line that could have shut down JFK. So, the problem is the people in charge of protecting us are more interested in making us think they are keeping us safe instead of telling us the truth and focusing on the real dangers we face.
So terrorism is better, or at least not as bad, when it is non-religious? Maybe we should cut people like Eric Rudolph, the IRA, ETA, and the Klan a little slack?
And the Old Testament is a book of laws we are no longer subject to?
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matther 5:17
“And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Mark 7:9-10
“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” Luke 19:27
“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22-23
I’m not trying to get into a drinking match over whose religious text condones more violence-I think the Koran wins that one. But it doesn’t follow that every member of a religious group believes in all the violence found in their holy books. Religious texts are notorious for internal inconsistency. People who want to do violence will always find a justification for their actions in them, just as will people who want to do good.
If those “few” are not representative of their religion, then neither is anyone else! As Plot Tracker states, how many other “non-representative” samples hatch such plots?
These knuckleheads are Muslims indeed, while most “followers of Islam” don’t know enough about their religion to practice it as it should be practiced, which includes killing non-Muslims:
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. – 9:73
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….
What about the knuckleheads who don’t realize that Leviticus instructs them thusly:
For whatsoever man there be that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (20:9)
Most Jews and Christians reading such passages are capable of putting them into historical perspective. I would guess that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are similar. Our focus should be on eliminating those who are a danger to us. Timothy McVeigh was not a Muslim, but he was a dangerous whack job.
Yes, Timothy McVeigh was a “dangerous whack job,” but at least he wasn’t doing it in the name of religion.
It’s ironic that we live in a country that protects the freedom of religion, even one that preaches the destruction of America. And if you don’t think this one does, you haven’t been listening.
Oh, and the Old Testament was a book of laws that we are no longer subject to…. The subject of the New Testament gave us grace – which is more than Islam preaches (I don’t believe they have room for grace).
Oh, forgot to mention, the subject of the New Testament – Christ; who died and rose again – and I don’t remember His teachings including the killing of those who disagree with you or don’t accept Him.
His grace is given as a free gift – your acceptance or denial of Him is your choice; and I won’t hunt you down if you don’t believe.
The above “rantings” are from a non-lunatic (even if you disagree) that cherishes God, Country and freedom – including your freedom to disagree with me.
Well, in answer to the first question – terrorism rising from hatred or prejudice (race, sex, religion, whatever) is always evil; just don’t claim to be doing it for God or Allah or “The Force” (for you Star Wars fans). But be careful to condemn all terrorism as we Americans use it during time of war also (when necessary to accomplish the task).
Stoning in the Old Testament – eternal separation from God in the new (new meaning of death). We all die – eternal destination is the question.
Context is everything – using one or two verses taken from a passage – as you said – can back up any position. In America’s past it was even used to condone and encourage slavery.
The Law of Moses was to stone adulterers, but Christ said, “Ye without sin, cast the first stone.” Just leave the splinter alone in my eye until you remove the stick from yours.
Track Plotter – don’t misunderstand me, I enjoy this and take nothing personally. Too many people are afraid of honest debate and discussion – I’m glad to find someone who is willing to dialogue.
Oh, and as much as I hate to admit it, I’m positive musslims know the Koran far better than I know the Bible (even though it says to hide its words in my heart), and many cults know how to use parts of the Bible to accomplish their purpose also.
Excellent observation. The problem however is that the Church has never put anyone to death for cursing his parents. Neither is there any instance of it in the Old Testament. The death being spoken of is convenant death,in other words, losing one’s part in the covenant that God made with His people.
On the other hand, we have Muslims running around killing people every day (or trying to) based on the Koranic verses that I cited. No amount of contextualization is going to convince them that these passages are passe’. This is not even to mention those passages in the Koran and Haddith that endorse polygamy and pedophilia.
*”Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matther 5:17
Here we go… Christ fulfilled the moral Law by keeping it entirely, and He fulfilled the ceremonial Law in His death and resurrection.
*”And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Mark 7:9-10
The context is that the Pharisees did not respect their own parents, despite their overweaning concern for SOME of the laws of Moses. “You are all concerned about the Law, but you won’t support your own parents,” is what He was saying. He was not saying that there should be capital punishment for cursing one’s parents, whatever that means.
*”But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” Luke 19:27
This is from a parable, it is not an endorsement by Christ of summary execution.
*”For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22-23
Well, I’m a little troubled by the moral relativism that terrorism is OK when it’s necessary for us to accomplish the task. Everytime this country embraces the concept that the end justifies the means, innocent people suffer.
Interpretations of scripture are just that-interpretations. I like yours, but not everyone agrees with you.
Abu, over the last two thousand years, many, many people have died at the hands of people who thought they were doing Christ’s work. Thankfully, we in the West have (mostly) moved beyond that. Islam has not made as much progress. The issue is not that our religion is better than theirs; it’s that their religion is pretty much all they have. They and their religion are capable of making the same progress we in the West have made. One of the reasons the West has progressed beyond tribal, sectarian violence is the separation of religion from government. Islamic terrorism would not be as dangerous as it is were it not for the fact that it receives the implicit and explicit support of sharia governments.
We all agree that we in the West face a danger from Islamic terrorism. Sniping at their religious texts tends to escalate matters to the point where we lose track of who we should be tracking down and killing, and instead decide we should just exterminate them all. Which is something many people who post on this comment board believe.
The problem with Islam is Islam. It is not “sniping at their texts” to report what the texts say, and the texts say that they are to kill Christians and Jews who will not convert or submit to Muslim rule. There’s no way to spin that. Muhammad married a six year-old whom he deflowered at nine, and justified it in the Koran so that Muslims are free to take child brides forever. Ayatollah Komeini married a ten year-old when he was twenty-nine.
On what basis do you believe that Muslim country’s can make progress like the West has? There is no reason to believe that from the study of history. Once the Muslim hoards were turned back from conquest at the gates of Vienna, their backward culture began to stagnate because they ran out of artisans to enslave and spoils to send home. It’s a pirate culture, a religion for bandits.
You should read something like Robert Spencer’s, The Truth About Muhammad.
Track Plotter – I was enjoying our dialogue, right up until you implicated Jerry Falwell as in some way as bad as the inquisition (sanctioned by the Pope). Especially since you have no ideas what he really believed or taught.
I am a graduate of Liberty University and I’ve been listening people bad-mouth Falwell for years just causes he preached that sin is sin, wrong is wrong and God is God. He’s never preached hate of people, just hate for sinful actions.
As a history lesson, you may remember that Falwell sued Larry Flynt over an ad parody in Penthouse. Well most people think that these guys hate each other. Guess what, they actually became friends. Falwell hated (since he is now dead, I’ll use the past tense) what Flynt does, but never hated the man. What a huge difference.
The Pope that sanctioned the inquisition hated people and groups of people – which is nothing more than prejudice and bigotry – which is ALWAYS wrong, as it states in the Bible.
Be careful what you allow people to lead you to believe about someone else you know nothing about. Falwell passionately believed that we needed, as a country, to return to God – but he never did and never would have promoted or condoned violence to accomplish it.
If muslim truly is a religion of peace – then all the muslims should be in the streets denouncing the actions that are being taken by these “radicals.” They are largely silent – out of fear of persecution themselves – and out of belief in the “mission.”
Agreed, there are nut case extremist representing every race, creed or belief – but they usually self-destruct over time and their cause is lost due to the efforts of the orthodox. These muslims that are attacking and blowing people up don’t seem to be on the fringe of the belief – if so, their actions would begin to wane. They are, in fact, practicing the mainstream – the Muslims in America just know how to play the waiting game.
I’ve got to go now, other things happening in the house I’ve got to take care of, so I can’t finish my thought.
Not being morally relative (at least not trying to be); just stating that the US does commit terrorist-type acts to accomplish military goals to hopefully defeat our enemy and protect our citizens. But ours is generally in response to and an attempt to end a threat – not to sway another country’s or people’s belief (religious, political or otherwise).
Was the atomic bomb justified to end a war? If we hadn’t have dropped it, many thousands (maybe over 1 million) US soldiers would have died in the effort to take Japan (at least according to military historians far smarter than I). Sometimes the end does justify the means (I don’t like it, but it does).
The difference is the underlying purpose of the person/country – safety vs. tyranny.
The holy Book of Islam, the Quran, says: “If anyone murders an innocent person … it will be as if he had murdered the whole of humanity.”
So those with murder in their hearts and minds are not practicing the true Muslim Faith. Please let’s not paint all Muslims with the same brush as we paint
violent Muslim extremists.
**The holy Book of Islam, the Quran, says: “If anyone murders an innocent person … it will be as if he had murdered the whole of humanity.”
The problem is, non-Muslims are not innocent. Muslims can lie to Infidels; infidels must never lie to Muslims. Muslims can befriend infidels in order to betray them later as stated in Koran. Muslims can make claim to lands that were never theirs when they become a sizable part of any nation or community. Muslims can kill those who disbelieve, but unbelievers may never kill a Muslim without the vengeance of Hell. Muslims can commit suicide while killing innocent people. Muslims can dance in the streets when celebrating acts of cowardice and suicide. Infidels cannot. Muslims can praise Allah and dance when hurricanes hit the USA, while Infidels empty their pockets and resources and mourn the death of people when a tidal wave hits their people.
As for reading the Koran, see below:
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. – 9:73
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….
Funny that Quakers are always more interested in defending anti-Christs than Christians.
Quaker author Jerry Frost recalls that in the 1930’s “the AFSC refused publicly to criticize the Soviet Union because building up cultural and personal contacts seemed the only way open to defuse hostilities.” However, if they refused to criticize the Soviets for fear of losing contacts then it’s obvious who they saw (and continue to see) as their real enemy: the United States of America.
The [Quaker] alliance with Communists would bear much fruit in the American Friends Service Committee’s propaganda. In the 1972 AFSC pamphlet Non-Violence: Not First For Export, author John Bristol explicitly describes the feelings that the AFSC has for the West in general, and America in particular. In a passage forgiving terrorists for their violent ways, Bristol asserts that “terrorism…repeatedly…is used to signify violent action on the part of oppressed peoples in Asia, Africa, Latin America or within the black ghettos of America, as they take up the weapons of violence in a desperate effort to wrest for themselves the freedom and justice denied them by the systems that presently control their lives.” But who exactly is the cause of the ‘system’ terrorists are trying to overthrow? Bristol places the blame squarely at the feet of the West. “What millions of middle-class and other non-poor fail to realize is that they are themselves accomplices each day in meeting [sic.] out inhuman, all-pervading violence upon their fellows.”
You’re using the Koran, written by primitive men centuries ago, and the behvaior of primitive men, to define the behavior of all Muslims today. The same can be done with the Bible.
Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt have made progress. In some cases, not much, but it is there. If you believe Muslim countries are incapable of making progress, then I have to assume you are opposed to the venture in Iraq, since that is the (current) stated goal of our president. Why should we be sacrificing American lives to prop up a government of Shia militias?
You seem to think I’m defending abominable behavior. I’m not. Reading from your book list and learning to fear all Muslims is not going to make us safer.
This is known as “rationalizing.” It may make you feel better about what we do, but it doesn’t change it from evil to good. The underlying purpose is really irrelevant. If some of the people committing acts of US terrorism (your words) actually enjoy doing it for its own sake, is it still justified?
History is written by the winners. Had we lost WW2, our history books would describe the triumph of German/Japanese safety over American tyranny.
As WW2 was winding down, German soldiers did everything they could to surrender to Americans, and avoid surrendering to Russians. Why? Because they knew what would happen to them if the Russians got them. That’s a real sign of good triumphing over evil. For good to triumph, individuals must make good choices.
Muslim countries that have progressed have not done so on the basis of anything endmic to Islam. We pump their oil, we defend them from one another, we taught them how to integrate with western nations.
Lebanon (despite being in the thrall of Syria today) was a prosperous nation because it was a banking center – spawned by European interests.
Egypt gets $3Billion a year from the US or it would be the next Afghanistan. Turkey is part of Europe, so it has had the most western influence on it.
The same cannot be done with the Bible as people do with the Koran. Today, no major movement or government advocate murder and pillage in the name of Christ. None.
Preceisely because Islam is a mental illness, we are going to have to maintain a presence in Iraq and Afghanistan for years in order to stabilize the region. It won’t be pretty, but it will beat the alternative of the entire region being run under the auspices of Al Qaeda.
It is not irrational to fear Islam, anymore than fear of cancer is irrational. What’s irrational is ignoring malignancy, or treating it like it were a pimple rather than a tumor.
You are talking apples and oranges. I am talking Islam, you are talking US. The US is not a religion, nor an officially Christian country. Then you say that the US is good and the USSR was evil. I don’t see your point(s).
Same thing, over and over. Your interpretation of the Koran coincides with the extremists’. But you ignore the majority who practice the faith with a different interpretation.
Some people belive God hates homosexuals based on what they read in the Bible. Others do not. What matters is what you do in furtherance of your belief.
The AFSC did good work. To some Americans, it seems, disagreeing with your government’s actions make you a traitor. Oh, that’s right. The same thing happens in totalitarian countries, too.
You just proved my point. Under the right circumstances, progress can be made. Just we in the West made progress when eased religion out of our governments, the same can happen in the Muslim world.
I still don’t understand why you think it’s worth American lives to try to stabilize a region of such “mental illness.” According to you, it’s not possible.
“You are talking apples and oranges. I am talking Islam, you are talking US. The US is not a religion, nor an officially Christian country. Then you say that the US is good and the USSR was evil. I don’t see your point(s).”
That’s because I wasn’t responding to you, I was responding to Plot Tracker (PT).
**Same thing, over and over. Your interpretation of the Koran coincides with the extremists’. But you ignore the majority who practice the faith with a different interpretation.
The largest Muslim nation is Indonesia. Most Indos do not speak Arabic, the only language Muslims can pray in. They know enough to recite prayers for the most part, but cannot read the Koran. Same with Paks and Afghans. Plus, Muslims have a higher rate of illiteracy, so even in Arab lands they can’t read it. But there is no doubt that the extremists are practicing pure Islam as directed by Muhammad. The Muslims who are not engaged in violent jihad are nominal Muslims.
**Some people belive God hates homosexuals based on what they read in the Bible. Others do not. What matters is what you do in furtherance of your belief.
Neither Christ nor any apostle commanded Christians to kill sodomists, so no equating of the Bible and the Koran is called for. This is a red herring.
**The AFSC did good work. To some Americans, it seems, disagreeing with your government’s actions make you a traitor. Oh, that’s right. The same thing happens in totalitarian countries, too.
Telling the truth about Islam or communist fronts is apparently problematic for you. I’m sorry that you have such a low regard for the truth. Why don’t you just stick your head back in the sand, or wherever it usually is?
Agreed, I’ve always said history is written by the winner – I just hope we (the US) always wins.
Not rationalizing – please provide your definition. You don’t have to “feel good” about doing something to bring an end to blood shed and devastation. If you feel good about it, you’re a sick person.
Killing for the sake of killing or to coerce someone or some group to think the way you do is the classic definition of “terrorism.”
Let’s be intellectually honest here – this is not really about what we have done in the past or in the future – WE are characterized as Terrorist throughout the middle east – so when we condemn terrorist actions, they call themselves victims of our terrorist actions.
So, I believe you and I are fighting a battle that is way too broad for me to understand. You, however, seem perfectly capable of understanding the full breadth of it.
No offense taken, and thanks for the clarification.
We got into a sidetrack regarding terrorism committed by us, the good guys. There’s a difference between “feeling good” about what you’ve done and “enjoying” it. If we commit acts of terror in what we believe is defense of our way of life, we don’t necessarily enjoy the acts themselves, but after some time we come to the conclusion that it was the right thing to do: we feel good about our decision; we have justified it. Watching Jack Bauer do “whatever it takes” is grand TV entertainment, but it has no relation to reality.
I want all Islamic terrorists hunted down and exterminated. But demonmizing all Muslims for the words found in the Koran makes the goal harder to achieve.
“I want all Islamic terrorists hunted down and exterminated. But demonmizing all Muslims for the words found in the Koran makes the goal harder to achieve.”
Why? That is nonsensical. Would you say that it is better not to read Mein Kampf in order to understand Nazis? It iw better not to read Das Capital or the Communist Manifesto to understand Marxism? May we not attribute the words of these books to the intentions of the people who claim them as their guiding lights?
You are apparently ready to defend at all costs something of which you are wholly ignorant.
“But there is no doubt that the extremists are practicing pure Islam as directed by Muhammad. The Muslims who are not engaged in violent jihad are nominal Muslims.”
Some people believe that Catholics who are pro-choice are only nominal Catholics, because the Pope forbids abortion. But the Pope also forbids the death penalty. A different group feels that Catholic supporters of the death penalty are only nominal Catholics.
You keep mischaracterizing my arguments. I’m not equating the Bible and the Koran in terms of which religion speaks more violently and spawns more violence. At this point in time, Islam is in the lead. I’m equating believers of all religions based on their individual capacity for violence and redemption. It is not the group we need to fear, it the individuals in that group who plot against us.
“Telling the truth about Islam or communist fronts is apparently problematic for you. I’m sorry that you have such a low regard for the truth. Why don’t you just stick your head back in the sand, or wherever it usually is?”
I don’t mind the truth. Your spin on it is not true. Guilt by association is a common ploy used when you have no substantive answer to an argument. Rather than discuss the issues raised in the quote by the AFSC, you seek to leave the impression that they have the same goals as “communists,” and therefore, they must be “communists.” Rather than argue forcefully that the US has always been a force for naught but good in the world, you smear. It was shameful in the 50’s, and it is shameful now.
All I was saying was that those who practice fundamentalist Islam are doing the real thing, those who don’t are nominal Muslims, like the non-maniacal Germans that you reference. You are a poor thinker. You repeat my syllogism as your own and renounce it.
Today there’s a story about a true Muslim, who killed a man (his own brother) for not being Muslim enough. No more posts from me, ta ta.
Montreal man killed by his brother for being a bad Muslim.
When a society imports large numbers of people from a culture that tolerates this kind of murder of the religiously deviant, or at very least from countries in which many people believe that if El-Mehdi really was a bad Muslim, then he deserved everything he got, then no one should be surprised when this kind of thing happens in the new land. No one dares address the idea that it is permissible to murder apostates in Islam. No one would dare require immigrants to renounce this idea. No one would dare require mosques to hold programs teaching against this idea, and other Sharia provisions, if they want to stay in the West. No, they’re imported wholesale, with no consideration of the ramifications.
Since none of the high-profile Muslim groups in the U.S. have declared the execution of apostates, as sanctioned by Islamic law, to be impermissible and wrong in all circumstances today, and none have renounced jihad warfare against unbelievers in order ultimately to subjugate them, is that really a wise course to take?
“He is a believer in Satan,” said Najib Bellari about his brother El-Medhi, just after he stabbed him to his death at a downtown restaurant where he was working on October 24, 2005.
This is what two of his coworkers declared about the 36-year-old defendent yesterday, during the trial for the murder of his brother, in front of judge Marc David.
According to their testimony, from Najib Bellari’s point of view, his elder brother was a bad Muslim.
The night of the murder, Najib Bellari, who currently studies administration in his native Morocco, returned to Basha on Sainte-Catherine Street, the restaurant where he works as a dishwasher.
“I want to speak to my brother”
“During the evening, a nice gentleman, the kind you can welcome with pleasure, a smiling, beautiful man, entered the restaurant and said, ‘I want to speak to my brother,'” testified the owner of Basha, Youssef Sbeiti.
The man, El-Mehdi, 38 years old, was the elder brother of Najib.
El-Mehdi was brought into the kitchen of the restaurant, where Najib was, by Mohammad Ibnzakour, the chef.
“It’s the brother who started to speak. I couldn’t hear, they spoke too low in a polite manner, then I heard Najib shout Leave! Leave!,” testified Mr. Ibnzakour.
Mr. Ibnzakour continued pointing out that the defendant took a kitchen knife, about thirty centimeters, and pointed it towards his brother.
“His brother started to move backwards in the dining room, and tried to calm him. He threw several chairs on the ground to block his way. Then he turned to Youssef to tell him why he came, and Najib then took the opportunity to stab him in the neck,” continued Mohammad Ibnzakour.
“His blood squirted on the walls. He left the restaurant and fell on the ground,” observed Mr. Sbeiti.
Bad Muslim
“He was a believer in Satan,” Najib said about his elder brother.
He then dropped his knife, placed the chairs and tables back in place, then sat down while waiting for the police.
Mohammad Ibnzakour described the defendant as a scholar of Islam.
“He has a good understanding of Islam. I would regularly ask him questions about Islam. He would answer. He taught me,” he remembered.
But Najib was also a conservative practitioner, who qualified those who were not observant as “deviant.”
Ibnzakour’s testimony caused loud sobbing from the defendant.
Hey that sounds like what that evangelist guy Bill Keller said about Mitt Romney the Republican Presidential Contender:
“Florida evangelist Bill Keller says he was making a spiritual — not political — statement when he warned the 2.4 million subscribers to his Internet prayer ministry that “if you vote for Mitt Romney, you are voting for Satan!”
But the Washington-based advocacy group Americans United for Separation of Church and State says the Internal Revenue Service should revoke the 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status of Bill Keller Ministries, nonetheless.
Keller, 49, who has a call-in show on a Tampa television station and a Web site called Liveprayer.com, on May 11 sent out a “daily devotional” that called Romney “an unabashed and proud member of the Mormon cult founded by a murdering polygamist pedophile named Joseph Smith nearly 200 years ago.” If the former Massachusetts governor wins the GOP nomination and the presidency, Keller’s message added, it will “ultimately lead millions of souls to the eternal flames of hell.”…
Why must we demonize whose whose faiths are dissimilar from ours? What is to be gained from trashing one another’s faith or practice of faith??I remember a young nephew who was attending a faith based elementary school kindly reassuring me that when I die I would be given a chance to renounce my faith and declare allegiance to his faith in order to enter heaven.
“All I was saying was that those who practice fundamentalist Islam are doing the real thing, those who don’t are nominal Muslims, like the non-maniacal Germans that you reference. You are a poor thinker. You repeat my syllogism as your own and renounce it.”
That’s not all you were saying. You were smearing all Muslims with your interpretation of what Islam is, which happens to coincide with what the worst of the worst believe. That would be like me judging all Christians evil because of the Inquisition, or because of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.
I don’t much care which Islam is the “real” Islam, as long as we are tracking down the people who are a danger. If you want to call the dangerous ones the “real” Muslims, you have every right to. But you’re not making the world safer by doing so.
>”I was enjoying our dialogue, right up until you implicated Jerry Falwell as in some way as bad as the inquisition (sanctioned by the Pope).”
The Inquisition cost about 3,000 people over hundreds of years. That’s too many, but it’s more than died on 9/11.
>”Especially since you have no ideas what he really believed or taught.”
Well one thing the Rev. Mr. Falwell taught was that the modern nation of “Israel” is prophesied in the Bible. This makes Zionism a default position for his followers, causing much of the hostility Arab Muslims have had for the US since 1948.
“Israel” was also seen as a western outpost by the USSR, so they were able to enlist Arab nations in the region as client states which further exacerbated the problem. Dispensationalist eschatology is as problematic as Muslim eschatology. Neither is true, and their real-world effects have been highly destructive.
It may have been over the top – but I’m not sure if it is completely inaccurate. We hear of cells of Islamic terrorist in America on a regular basis.
Look, to your point, I fully realize that to characterize every member of a society, group, sect, religion or neighborhood based on one or a small group’s actions is stereotyping (I certainly hope my family is not judged by me); but until the Muslims in America publicly, often and loudly denounce these terrorist actions done on behalf of their religion – I’m afraid they are fitting the stereotype.
Chris Rock (not really known as a great philosopher or sociologist) made the comment that if there wasn’t some truth (past or present) in the stereotype, the stereotype wouldn’t exist. His point being for comic effect, but when contemplated – is largely true.
I look at life this way (may sound familiar) – all men (and women) are created equal with equal rights, opportunities, and responsibilities. Your rights end where mine begin; and my responsibility begins where my rights end.
In short we do our best to look out for each other. When you violate that by committing violent acts – you have violated the trust of all mankind and deserve punishment (be that legal or eternal). Within this there is room for forgiveness and redemption – make it right with the people(s) you’ve done wrong and don’t do it again. But even if you repent (in the broad sense of the word, not the Christian sense), you must still face the consequences of your actions – just saying I’m sorry doesn’t make everything better.
>”I have serious problems with Islam, but it’s over the top to accuse the American Muslim community of biding their time.”
A recent Pew Poll discovered, by interviewing 3,500 Muslims in America, that 25% of them favor suicide bombings as revenge for “insulting Islam.” So maybe rather than saying that they’re “biding their time” we should say that they are “waiting for an excuse.”
The percentage who think suicide bombing is acceptable rises for young Muslims. Perhaps this where you came up with your figure, but your statement was misleading.
I’m not defending anyone. These numbers are disturbing enough. But thinking a crime is justified is different from committing or supporting them.
It’s the fourth story on this page. You’re right, the 25% was of a specific age group in the survey, which is still sickening.
~
A Pew Research Center poll released late last month found that, while U.S. Muslims are largely the picture of assimilation, about a quarter of Muslims ages 18 to 29 said the use of suicide bombing against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified, at least on rare occasions.
The finding was described by some as a trouble spot, and even a hair-raising statistic, but many Muslim scholars had another reaction to the Pew report: What did you expect?
Don’t these jokers know that Islam is a religion of peace?
http://www.jihadwatch.org
1. Because of the nature of the pipeline and the physics of jet fuel, the “terrorist” plot was “technically infeasible.”
2. The investigation has been going on for a year and a half. The US Attorney knows, or should know, that her description of the possible devestation is hyperbole.
3. The real danger was economic. It was technically possible to cause a disruption in the jet fuel line that could have shut down JFK. So, the problem is the people in charge of protecting us are more interested in making us think they are keeping us safe instead of telling us the truth and focusing on the real dangers we face.
These knuckleheads are not representative of the many fine people who are followers of Islam in the United States.
So terrorism is better, or at least not as bad, when it is non-religious? Maybe we should cut people like Eric Rudolph, the IRA, ETA, and the Klan a little slack?
And the Old Testament is a book of laws we are no longer subject to?
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matther 5:17
“And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Mark 7:9-10
“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” Luke 19:27
“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22-23
I’m not trying to get into a drinking match over whose religious text condones more violence-I think the Koran wins that one. But it doesn’t follow that every member of a religious group believes in all the violence found in their holy books. Religious texts are notorious for internal inconsistency. People who want to do violence will always find a justification for their actions in them, just as will people who want to do good.
Haven’t seen many such plots by Presbyterians lately; even by a “non-representative” sample.
If those “few” are not representative of their religion, then neither is anyone else! As Plot Tracker states, how many other “non-representative” samples hatch such plots?
These knuckleheads are Muslims indeed, while most “followers of Islam” don’t know enough about their religion to practice it as it should be practiced, which includes killing non-Muslims:
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. – 9:73
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….
What about the knuckleheads who don’t realize that Leviticus instructs them thusly:
For whatsoever man there be that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (20:9)
Most Jews and Christians reading such passages are capable of putting them into historical perspective. I would guess that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are similar. Our focus should be on eliminating those who are a danger to us. Timothy McVeigh was not a Muslim, but he was a dangerous whack job.
Yes, Timothy McVeigh was a “dangerous whack job,” but at least he wasn’t doing it in the name of religion.
It’s ironic that we live in a country that protects the freedom of religion, even one that preaches the destruction of America. And if you don’t think this one does, you haven’t been listening.
Oh, and the Old Testament was a book of laws that we are no longer subject to…. The subject of the New Testament gave us grace – which is more than Islam preaches (I don’t believe they have room for grace).
Oh, forgot to mention, the subject of the New Testament – Christ; who died and rose again – and I don’t remember His teachings including the killing of those who disagree with you or don’t accept Him.
His grace is given as a free gift – your acceptance or denial of Him is your choice; and I won’t hunt you down if you don’t believe.
The above “rantings” are from a non-lunatic (even if you disagree) that cherishes God, Country and freedom – including your freedom to disagree with me.
Well, in answer to the first question – terrorism rising from hatred or prejudice (race, sex, religion, whatever) is always evil; just don’t claim to be doing it for God or Allah or “The Force” (for you Star Wars fans). But be careful to condemn all terrorism as we Americans use it during time of war also (when necessary to accomplish the task).
Stoning in the Old Testament – eternal separation from God in the new (new meaning of death). We all die – eternal destination is the question.
Context is everything – using one or two verses taken from a passage – as you said – can back up any position. In America’s past it was even used to condone and encourage slavery.
The Law of Moses was to stone adulterers, but Christ said, “Ye without sin, cast the first stone.” Just leave the splinter alone in my eye until you remove the stick from yours.
Track Plotter – don’t misunderstand me, I enjoy this and take nothing personally. Too many people are afraid of honest debate and discussion – I’m glad to find someone who is willing to dialogue.
Oh, and as much as I hate to admit it, I’m positive musslims know the Koran far better than I know the Bible (even though it says to hide its words in my heart), and many cults know how to use parts of the Bible to accomplish their purpose also.
Excellent observation. The problem however is that the Church has never put anyone to death for cursing his parents. Neither is there any instance of it in the Old Testament. The death being spoken of is convenant death,in other words, losing one’s part in the covenant that God made with His people.
On the other hand, we have Muslims running around killing people every day (or trying to) based on the Koranic verses that I cited. No amount of contextualization is going to convince them that these passages are passe’. This is not even to mention those passages in the Koran and Haddith that endorse polygamy and pedophilia.
*”Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matther 5:17
Here we go… Christ fulfilled the moral Law by keeping it entirely, and He fulfilled the ceremonial Law in His death and resurrection.
*”And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Mark 7:9-10
The context is that the Pharisees did not respect their own parents, despite their overweaning concern for SOME of the laws of Moses. “You are all concerned about the Law, but you won’t support your own parents,” is what He was saying. He was not saying that there should be capital punishment for cursing one’s parents, whatever that means.
*”But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” Luke 19:27
This is from a parable, it is not an endorsement by Christ of summary execution.
*”For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22-23
Which occurred in AD 70.
Well, I’m a little troubled by the moral relativism that terrorism is OK when it’s necessary for us to accomplish the task. Everytime this country embraces the concept that the end justifies the means, innocent people suffer.
Interpretations of scripture are just that-interpretations. I like yours, but not everyone agrees with you.
Abu, over the last two thousand years, many, many people have died at the hands of people who thought they were doing Christ’s work. Thankfully, we in the West have (mostly) moved beyond that. Islam has not made as much progress. The issue is not that our religion is better than theirs; it’s that their religion is pretty much all they have. They and their religion are capable of making the same progress we in the West have made. One of the reasons the West has progressed beyond tribal, sectarian violence is the separation of religion from government. Islamic terrorism would not be as dangerous as it is were it not for the fact that it receives the implicit and explicit support of sharia governments.
We all agree that we in the West face a danger from Islamic terrorism. Sniping at their religious texts tends to escalate matters to the point where we lose track of who we should be tracking down and killing, and instead decide we should just exterminate them all. Which is something many people who post on this comment board believe.
The problem with Islam is Islam. It is not “sniping at their texts” to report what the texts say, and the texts say that they are to kill Christians and Jews who will not convert or submit to Muslim rule. There’s no way to spin that. Muhammad married a six year-old whom he deflowered at nine, and justified it in the Koran so that Muslims are free to take child brides forever. Ayatollah Komeini married a ten year-old when he was twenty-nine.
On what basis do you believe that Muslim country’s can make progress like the West has? There is no reason to believe that from the study of history. Once the Muslim hoards were turned back from conquest at the gates of Vienna, their backward culture began to stagnate because they ran out of artisans to enslave and spoils to send home. It’s a pirate culture, a religion for bandits.
You should read something like Robert Spencer’s, The Truth About Muhammad.
http://www.jihadwatch.org
Track Plotter – I was enjoying our dialogue, right up until you implicated Jerry Falwell as in some way as bad as the inquisition (sanctioned by the Pope). Especially since you have no ideas what he really believed or taught.
I am a graduate of Liberty University and I’ve been listening people bad-mouth Falwell for years just causes he preached that sin is sin, wrong is wrong and God is God. He’s never preached hate of people, just hate for sinful actions.
As a history lesson, you may remember that Falwell sued Larry Flynt over an ad parody in Penthouse. Well most people think that these guys hate each other. Guess what, they actually became friends. Falwell hated (since he is now dead, I’ll use the past tense) what Flynt does, but never hated the man. What a huge difference.
The Pope that sanctioned the inquisition hated people and groups of people – which is nothing more than prejudice and bigotry – which is ALWAYS wrong, as it states in the Bible.
Be careful what you allow people to lead you to believe about someone else you know nothing about. Falwell passionately believed that we needed, as a country, to return to God – but he never did and never would have promoted or condoned violence to accomplish it.
If muslim truly is a religion of peace – then all the muslims should be in the streets denouncing the actions that are being taken by these “radicals.” They are largely silent – out of fear of persecution themselves – and out of belief in the “mission.”
Agreed, there are nut case extremist representing every race, creed or belief – but they usually self-destruct over time and their cause is lost due to the efforts of the orthodox. These muslims that are attacking and blowing people up don’t seem to be on the fringe of the belief – if so, their actions would begin to wane. They are, in fact, practicing the mainstream – the Muslims in America just know how to play the waiting game.
I’ve got to go now, other things happening in the house I’ve got to take care of, so I can’t finish my thought.
Not being morally relative (at least not trying to be); just stating that the US does commit terrorist-type acts to accomplish military goals to hopefully defeat our enemy and protect our citizens. But ours is generally in response to and an attempt to end a threat – not to sway another country’s or people’s belief (religious, political or otherwise).
Was the atomic bomb justified to end a war? If we hadn’t have dropped it, many thousands (maybe over 1 million) US soldiers would have died in the effort to take Japan (at least according to military historians far smarter than I). Sometimes the end does justify the means (I don’t like it, but it does).
The difference is the underlying purpose of the person/country – safety vs. tyranny.
But – MIGHT NEVER MAKES RIGHT!
The holy Book of Islam, the Quran, says: “If anyone murders an innocent person … it will be as if he had murdered the whole of humanity.”
So those with murder in their hearts and minds are not practicing the true Muslim Faith. Please let’s not paint all Muslims with the same brush as we paint
violent Muslim extremists.
**The holy Book of Islam, the Quran, says: “If anyone murders an innocent person … it will be as if he had murdered the whole of humanity.”
The problem is, non-Muslims are not innocent. Muslims can lie to Infidels; infidels must never lie to Muslims. Muslims can befriend infidels in order to betray them later as stated in Koran. Muslims can make claim to lands that were never theirs when they become a sizable part of any nation or community. Muslims can kill those who disbelieve, but unbelievers may never kill a Muslim without the vengeance of Hell. Muslims can commit suicide while killing innocent people. Muslims can dance in the streets when celebrating acts of cowardice and suicide. Infidels cannot. Muslims can praise Allah and dance when hurricanes hit the USA, while Infidels empty their pockets and resources and mourn the death of people when a tidal wave hits their people.
As for reading the Koran, see below:
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. – 9:73
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….
Funny that Quakers are always more interested in defending anti-Christs than Christians.
Quaker author Jerry Frost recalls that in the 1930’s “the AFSC refused publicly to criticize the Soviet Union because building up cultural and personal contacts seemed the only way open to defuse hostilities.” However, if they refused to criticize the Soviets for fear of losing contacts then it’s obvious who they saw (and continue to see) as their real enemy: the United States of America.
The [Quaker] alliance with Communists would bear much fruit in the American Friends Service Committee’s propaganda. In the 1972 AFSC pamphlet Non-Violence: Not First For Export, author John Bristol explicitly describes the feelings that the AFSC has for the West in general, and America in particular. In a passage forgiving terrorists for their violent ways, Bristol asserts that “terrorism…repeatedly…is used to signify violent action on the part of oppressed peoples in Asia, Africa, Latin America or within the black ghettos of America, as they take up the weapons of violence in a desperate effort to wrest for themselves the freedom and justice denied them by the systems that presently control their lives.” But who exactly is the cause of the ‘system’ terrorists are trying to overthrow? Bristol places the blame squarely at the feet of the West. “What millions of middle-class and other non-poor fail to realize is that they are themselves accomplices each day in meeting [sic.] out inhuman, all-pervading violence upon their fellows.”
You’re using the Koran, written by primitive men centuries ago, and the behvaior of primitive men, to define the behavior of all Muslims today. The same can be done with the Bible.
Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt have made progress. In some cases, not much, but it is there. If you believe Muslim countries are incapable of making progress, then I have to assume you are opposed to the venture in Iraq, since that is the (current) stated goal of our president. Why should we be sacrificing American lives to prop up a government of Shia militias?
You seem to think I’m defending abominable behavior. I’m not. Reading from your book list and learning to fear all Muslims is not going to make us safer.
This is known as “rationalizing.” It may make you feel better about what we do, but it doesn’t change it from evil to good. The underlying purpose is really irrelevant. If some of the people committing acts of US terrorism (your words) actually enjoy doing it for its own sake, is it still justified?
History is written by the winners. Had we lost WW2, our history books would describe the triumph of German/Japanese safety over American tyranny.
As WW2 was winding down, German soldiers did everything they could to surrender to Americans, and avoid surrendering to Russians. Why? Because they knew what would happen to them if the Russians got them. That’s a real sign of good triumphing over evil. For good to triumph, individuals must make good choices.
Muslim countries that have progressed have not done so on the basis of anything endmic to Islam. We pump their oil, we defend them from one another, we taught them how to integrate with western nations.
Lebanon (despite being in the thrall of Syria today) was a prosperous nation because it was a banking center – spawned by European interests.
Egypt gets $3Billion a year from the US or it would be the next Afghanistan. Turkey is part of Europe, so it has had the most western influence on it.
The same cannot be done with the Bible as people do with the Koran. Today, no major movement or government advocate murder and pillage in the name of Christ. None.
Preceisely because Islam is a mental illness, we are going to have to maintain a presence in Iraq and Afghanistan for years in order to stabilize the region. It won’t be pretty, but it will beat the alternative of the entire region being run under the auspices of Al Qaeda.
It is not irrational to fear Islam, anymore than fear of cancer is irrational. What’s irrational is ignoring malignancy, or treating it like it were a pimple rather than a tumor.
You are talking apples and oranges. I am talking Islam, you are talking US. The US is not a religion, nor an officially Christian country. Then you say that the US is good and the USSR was evil. I don’t see your point(s).
Same thing, over and over. Your interpretation of the Koran coincides with the extremists’. But you ignore the majority who practice the faith with a different interpretation.
Some people belive God hates homosexuals based on what they read in the Bible. Others do not. What matters is what you do in furtherance of your belief.
The AFSC did good work. To some Americans, it seems, disagreeing with your government’s actions make you a traitor. Oh, that’s right. The same thing happens in totalitarian countries, too.
You just proved my point. Under the right circumstances, progress can be made. Just we in the West made progress when eased religion out of our governments, the same can happen in the Muslim world.
I still don’t understand why you think it’s worth American lives to try to stabilize a region of such “mental illness.” According to you, it’s not possible.
“You are talking apples and oranges. I am talking Islam, you are talking US. The US is not a religion, nor an officially Christian country. Then you say that the US is good and the USSR was evil. I don’t see your point(s).”
That’s because I wasn’t responding to you, I was responding to Plot Tracker (PT).
**Same thing, over and over. Your interpretation of the Koran coincides with the extremists’. But you ignore the majority who practice the faith with a different interpretation.
The largest Muslim nation is Indonesia. Most Indos do not speak Arabic, the only language Muslims can pray in. They know enough to recite prayers for the most part, but cannot read the Koran. Same with Paks and Afghans. Plus, Muslims have a higher rate of illiteracy, so even in Arab lands they can’t read it. But there is no doubt that the extremists are practicing pure Islam as directed by Muhammad. The Muslims who are not engaged in violent jihad are nominal Muslims.
**Some people belive God hates homosexuals based on what they read in the Bible. Others do not. What matters is what you do in furtherance of your belief.
Neither Christ nor any apostle commanded Christians to kill sodomists, so no equating of the Bible and the Koran is called for. This is a red herring.
**The AFSC did good work. To some Americans, it seems, disagreeing with your government’s actions make you a traitor. Oh, that’s right. The same thing happens in totalitarian countries, too.
Telling the truth about Islam or communist fronts is apparently problematic for you. I’m sorry that you have such a low regard for the truth. Why don’t you just stick your head back in the sand, or wherever it usually is?
Agreed, I’ve always said history is written by the winner – I just hope we (the US) always wins.
Not rationalizing – please provide your definition. You don’t have to “feel good” about doing something to bring an end to blood shed and devastation. If you feel good about it, you’re a sick person.
Killing for the sake of killing or to coerce someone or some group to think the way you do is the classic definition of “terrorism.”
Let’s be intellectually honest here – this is not really about what we have done in the past or in the future – WE are characterized as Terrorist throughout the middle east – so when we condemn terrorist actions, they call themselves victims of our terrorist actions.
So, I believe you and I are fighting a battle that is way too broad for me to understand. You, however, seem perfectly capable of understanding the full breadth of it.
Track Plotter.
My last line in my last posting about your intelligence was not intended as an insult.
I see how it could be misconstrued as such.
No offense taken, and thanks for the clarification.
We got into a sidetrack regarding terrorism committed by us, the good guys. There’s a difference between “feeling good” about what you’ve done and “enjoying” it. If we commit acts of terror in what we believe is defense of our way of life, we don’t necessarily enjoy the acts themselves, but after some time we come to the conclusion that it was the right thing to do: we feel good about our decision; we have justified it. Watching Jack Bauer do “whatever it takes” is grand TV entertainment, but it has no relation to reality.
I want all Islamic terrorists hunted down and exterminated. But demonmizing all Muslims for the words found in the Koran makes the goal harder to achieve.
I probably should not have thrown Reverends Falwell and Robertson in with the Inquisition-it was a bit over the top.
I have serious problems with Islam, but it’s over the top to accuse the American Muslim community of biding their time.
Can’t argue with any of that.
I’ve enjoyed the discussion.
“I want all Islamic terrorists hunted down and exterminated. But demonmizing all Muslims for the words found in the Koran makes the goal harder to achieve.”
Why? That is nonsensical. Would you say that it is better not to read Mein Kampf in order to understand Nazis? It iw better not to read Das Capital or the Communist Manifesto to understand Marxism? May we not attribute the words of these books to the intentions of the people who claim them as their guiding lights?
You are apparently ready to defend at all costs something of which you are wholly ignorant.
“But there is no doubt that the extremists are practicing pure Islam as directed by Muhammad. The Muslims who are not engaged in violent jihad are nominal Muslims.”
Some people believe that Catholics who are pro-choice are only nominal Catholics, because the Pope forbids abortion. But the Pope also forbids the death penalty. A different group feels that Catholic supporters of the death penalty are only nominal Catholics.
You keep mischaracterizing my arguments. I’m not equating the Bible and the Koran in terms of which religion speaks more violently and spawns more violence. At this point in time, Islam is in the lead. I’m equating believers of all religions based on their individual capacity for violence and redemption. It is not the group we need to fear, it the individuals in that group who plot against us.
“Telling the truth about Islam or communist fronts is apparently problematic for you. I’m sorry that you have such a low regard for the truth. Why don’t you just stick your head back in the sand, or wherever it usually is?”
I don’t mind the truth. Your spin on it is not true. Guilt by association is a common ploy used when you have no substantive answer to an argument. Rather than discuss the issues raised in the quote by the AFSC, you seek to leave the impression that they have the same goals as “communists,” and therefore, they must be “communists.” Rather than argue forcefully that the US has always been a force for naught but good in the world, you smear. It was shameful in the 50’s, and it is shameful now.
I’m sorry, but you are incoherent.
Signing off,
Abu
Reading Mein Kampf helps us to understand Hitler and how he rose to power. Is it your position that all Germans during WW2 were maniacal Jew-haters?
“May we not attribute the words of these books to the intentions of the people who claim them as their guiding lights?”
Clearly, you want to do that, to everyone, even when they state clearly they don’t agree with your interpretation of the words.
Gee now that is downright unpolite.
All I was saying was that those who practice fundamentalist Islam are doing the real thing, those who don’t are nominal Muslims, like the non-maniacal Germans that you reference. You are a poor thinker. You repeat my syllogism as your own and renounce it.
Go here everyday – http://jihadwatch.org/
Today there’s a story about a true Muslim, who killed a man (his own brother) for not being Muslim enough. No more posts from me, ta ta.
Montreal man killed by his brother for being a bad Muslim.
When a society imports large numbers of people from a culture that tolerates this kind of murder of the religiously deviant, or at very least from countries in which many people believe that if El-Mehdi really was a bad Muslim, then he deserved everything he got, then no one should be surprised when this kind of thing happens in the new land. No one dares address the idea that it is permissible to murder apostates in Islam. No one would dare require immigrants to renounce this idea. No one would dare require mosques to hold programs teaching against this idea, and other Sharia provisions, if they want to stay in the West. No, they’re imported wholesale, with no consideration of the ramifications.
Since none of the high-profile Muslim groups in the U.S. have declared the execution of apostates, as sanctioned by Islamic law, to be impermissible and wrong in all circumstances today, and none have renounced jihad warfare against unbelievers in order ultimately to subjugate them, is that really a wise course to take?
Jihad Watch reader Marc has kindly sent in this translation of this French article, “Killed his own brother: ‘He was a believer in Satan,'” by David Santerre in Le Journal de Montréal:
~
“He is a believer in Satan,” said Najib Bellari about his brother El-Medhi, just after he stabbed him to his death at a downtown restaurant where he was working on October 24, 2005.
This is what two of his coworkers declared about the 36-year-old defendent yesterday, during the trial for the murder of his brother, in front of judge Marc David.
According to their testimony, from Najib Bellari’s point of view, his elder brother was a bad Muslim.
The night of the murder, Najib Bellari, who currently studies administration in his native Morocco, returned to Basha on Sainte-Catherine Street, the restaurant where he works as a dishwasher.
“I want to speak to my brother”
“During the evening, a nice gentleman, the kind you can welcome with pleasure, a smiling, beautiful man, entered the restaurant and said, ‘I want to speak to my brother,'” testified the owner of Basha, Youssef Sbeiti.
The man, El-Mehdi, 38 years old, was the elder brother of Najib.
El-Mehdi was brought into the kitchen of the restaurant, where Najib was, by Mohammad Ibnzakour, the chef.
“It’s the brother who started to speak. I couldn’t hear, they spoke too low in a polite manner, then I heard Najib shout Leave! Leave!,” testified Mr. Ibnzakour.
Mr. Ibnzakour continued pointing out that the defendant took a kitchen knife, about thirty centimeters, and pointed it towards his brother.
“His brother started to move backwards in the dining room, and tried to calm him. He threw several chairs on the ground to block his way. Then he turned to Youssef to tell him why he came, and Najib then took the opportunity to stab him in the neck,” continued Mohammad Ibnzakour.
“His blood squirted on the walls. He left the restaurant and fell on the ground,” observed Mr. Sbeiti.
Bad Muslim
“He was a believer in Satan,” Najib said about his elder brother.
He then dropped his knife, placed the chairs and tables back in place, then sat down while waiting for the police.
Mohammad Ibnzakour described the defendant as a scholar of Islam.
“He has a good understanding of Islam. I would regularly ask him questions about Islam. He would answer. He taught me,” he remembered.
But Najib was also a conservative practitioner, who qualified those who were not observant as “deviant.”
Ibnzakour’s testimony caused loud sobbing from the defendant.
Hey that sounds like what that evangelist guy Bill Keller said about Mitt Romney the Republican Presidential Contender:
“Florida evangelist Bill Keller says he was making a spiritual — not political — statement when he warned the 2.4 million subscribers to his Internet prayer ministry that “if you vote for Mitt Romney, you are voting for Satan!”
But the Washington-based advocacy group Americans United for Separation of Church and State says the Internal Revenue Service should revoke the 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status of Bill Keller Ministries, nonetheless.
Keller, 49, who has a call-in show on a Tampa television station and a Web site called Liveprayer.com, on May 11 sent out a “daily devotional” that called Romney “an unabashed and proud member of the Mormon cult founded by a murdering polygamist pedophile named Joseph Smith nearly 200 years ago.” If the former Massachusetts governor wins the GOP nomination and the presidency, Keller’s message added, it will “ultimately lead millions of souls to the eternal flames of hell.”…
Why must we demonize whose whose faiths are dissimilar from ours? What is to be gained from trashing one another’s faith or practice of faith??I remember a young nephew who was attending a faith based elementary school kindly reassuring me that when I die I would be given a chance to renounce my faith and declare allegiance to his faith in order to enter heaven.
Ouch!
But it isn’t a tenet of his faith to hunt the guy down and stab him, is it? It is a tenet of Islam to kill apostates.
Ouch!
“All I was saying was that those who practice fundamentalist Islam are doing the real thing, those who don’t are nominal Muslims, like the non-maniacal Germans that you reference. You are a poor thinker. You repeat my syllogism as your own and renounce it.”
That’s not all you were saying. You were smearing all Muslims with your interpretation of what Islam is, which happens to coincide with what the worst of the worst believe. That would be like me judging all Christians evil because of the Inquisition, or because of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.
I don’t much care which Islam is the “real” Islam, as long as we are tracking down the people who are a danger. If you want to call the dangerous ones the “real” Muslims, you have every right to. But you’re not making the world safer by doing so.
>”I was enjoying our dialogue, right up until you implicated Jerry Falwell as in some way as bad as the inquisition (sanctioned by the Pope).”
The Inquisition cost about 3,000 people over hundreds of years. That’s too many, but it’s more than died on 9/11.
>”Especially since you have no ideas what he really believed or taught.”
Well one thing the Rev. Mr. Falwell taught was that the modern nation of “Israel” is prophesied in the Bible. This makes Zionism a default position for his followers, causing much of the hostility Arab Muslims have had for the US since 1948.
“Israel” was also seen as a western outpost by the USSR, so they were able to enlist Arab nations in the region as client states which further exacerbated the problem. Dispensationalist eschatology is as problematic as Muslim eschatology. Neither is true, and their real-world effects have been highly destructive.
It may have been over the top – but I’m not sure if it is completely inaccurate. We hear of cells of Islamic terrorist in America on a regular basis.
Look, to your point, I fully realize that to characterize every member of a society, group, sect, religion or neighborhood based on one or a small group’s actions is stereotyping (I certainly hope my family is not judged by me); but until the Muslims in America publicly, often and loudly denounce these terrorist actions done on behalf of their religion – I’m afraid they are fitting the stereotype.
Chris Rock (not really known as a great philosopher or sociologist) made the comment that if there wasn’t some truth (past or present) in the stereotype, the stereotype wouldn’t exist. His point being for comic effect, but when contemplated – is largely true.
I look at life this way (may sound familiar) – all men (and women) are created equal with equal rights, opportunities, and responsibilities. Your rights end where mine begin; and my responsibility begins where my rights end.
In short we do our best to look out for each other. When you violate that by committing violent acts – you have violated the trust of all mankind and deserve punishment (be that legal or eternal). Within this there is room for forgiveness and redemption – make it right with the people(s) you’ve done wrong and don’t do it again. But even if you repent (in the broad sense of the word, not the Christian sense), you must still face the consequences of your actions – just saying I’m sorry doesn’t make everything better.
Just casual thoughts on a nice Friday.
>”I have serious problems with Islam, but it’s over the top to accuse the American Muslim community of biding their time.”
A recent Pew Poll discovered, by interviewing 3,500 Muslims in America, that 25% of them favor suicide bombings as revenge for “insulting Islam.” So maybe rather than saying that they’re “biding their time” we should say that they are “waiting for an excuse.”
Cliff,
I enjoyed it. Have a great weekend.
I just downloaded the American Muslim report from the Pew web site, and the figures are:
“Suicide bombing can be justified…”
Often: 1%
Sometimes: 7%
Rarely/Never: 83%
Don’t know/No answer: 9%
The percentage who think suicide bombing is acceptable rises for young Muslims. Perhaps this where you came up with your figure, but your statement was misleading.
I’m not defending anyone. These numbers are disturbing enough. But thinking a crime is justified is different from committing or supporting them.
http://jihadwatch.org/
It’s the fourth story on this page. You’re right, the 25% was of a specific age group in the survey, which is still sickening.
~
A Pew Research Center poll released late last month found that, while U.S. Muslims are largely the picture of assimilation, about a quarter of Muslims ages 18 to 29 said the use of suicide bombing against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified, at least on rare occasions.
The finding was described by some as a trouble spot, and even a hair-raising statistic, but many Muslim scholars had another reaction to the Pew report: What did you expect?
This age group will eventually be the leadership.
LOL! See y’all at the next IJ controversy!
TP
Can’t wait!!
PT