You are so wrong on so many things….first, I don’t shop at Wal-Mart, haven’t in over 8 years because they are a sickening greedy company that makes it’s money is what SHOULD be an illegal way. I am NOT an attorney, as one of the posters guessed because they too are mostly slimy and greedy! I give more to my community then I am sure ANY of you could possibly imagine.
As for Mr. Gill Fin, again you just don’t get it! I don’t NEED to know the secret formula for Coca Cola because I can “CHOOSE” if I want to drink coke or not! I am REQUIRED to purchase insurance…get the difference now! As for competition in the insurance industry the only competition I see is these companies trying to pay their CEO’s the MOST amount of money and bonuses than the other, This is done by GOUGING the Consumer who MUST have insurance whether it be for auto or homeowners. Giving a discount to a driver with a good driving record is GREAT but penalizing a driver who has had a hard time paying the bills is ludicrous! Those credit scores don’t tell a person’s REAL life story, death in the family, loss of job, divorce, and illness. All of these can change a person’s ability to pay their bills on time. I know of many people in Florida that due to the 200% to 500% rate increases in their homeowners insurance have had to take 2nd mortgages and put their insurance bills on their credit cards to pay them. (Just for your info. I am NOT one of those people) Now if you want to know who I am angry at I will tell you….I am angry at the insurance industry for raping people, I am angry at our leadership for allowing us to be raped. (This happens because the insurance industry spends MILLIONS on insurance lobbyist to get things THEIR way and the average homeowner has no MILLIONS to fight back with)
As for my grammar, one should NOT call the kettle black unless he is not the pot!!!
Not me, not HawaiiDuke888. Who requires you to choose any insurance service?
To drive a car in my state you don’t have to buy insurance, you can post a bond instead. And you don’t need to buy insurance to own a condo, so just who is forcing you or anyone to buy insurance?
I had a client in my office today who decided to not insure his home. He owns it free and clear. He’s not very smart as far as I am concerned, but he’s free to do what he wants. How private enterprise is somehow forced upon you remains a mystery to me. You say credit scoring doesn’t tell a persons real life story. Do tickets and accidents tell a persons real life story? Insurers have responded to pressure from the industry to bring down rates. Don’t get your back up when they develop ways to do just that. I know you’ll be happy to know that tickets and accidents still do influence the cost of auto insurance to a greater degree than credit scoring.
Maybe where you are you are not required to carry insurance but by law in Florida you are required by law to carry at least PIP insurance on your car and if it is financed you must carry full-coverage insurance. Also Condo owners must adhere to their condo associations, which require homeowners insurance even if you own your condo free and clear. Yes, you can go without insurance if you own your home and have no mortgage, but there are many more people that have a mortgage then don’t. What I was pointing out is there is a BIG difference between choosing to buy a Coca Cola and needing insurance. It was like comparing apples to oranges. As for tickets and accidents influencing the cost of car insurance that makes more sense then using someone’s credit score.
Some states do require you to buy insurance if you own a car. Nevertheless, nobody is forced to buy a car. Nevertheless, understanding of economics is probably beyond his sophistication as people who argue intelligently know that they must put emotions aside and put logic. The ones who don’t understand logic only frustrate themselves in our great country we call the USA. I thank God I understand how things work which allows me to thrive.
“Insurance pricing does allow fair discrimination. If statistics show that you can divide a population in a certain way, even though it might appear to be normally discriminatory, it’s fairly discriminatory because the predicted losses line up with the pricing.”
Insurance pricing is all about segmentation and discrimination. People who pose a higher risk of loss are going to pay more. It’s not a black/hispanic/white issue. It’s a measure of risk of loss.
Instead of complaining that half of African Americans are in the bottom 25% of credit scoring or half of hispanics are in the bottom 33%, lets focus on the half that isn’t and discuss what factors cause the other half to have such poor credit.
I doubt Experian/TransUnion assign lower credit scores simply because someone is a “minority”. Something else other than race is at issue here.
Credit based scoring has been shown to be predictive of risk assessment and loss potential time and time again. It’s not racial discrimination, it’s risk assessment and price segmentation.
It figures that Not an Agent would be from Florida. This is the state that feels that it can ignore reality and force rates down and insurance companies out to make their lives more affordable. Anyone in Florida with any knowledge of reality knows that the next hurricane in that poorly managed state will have incredible economic ramifications. These are far too complicated to explain to the run of low IQ insurance company haters swarming over this site lately. I’m sorry if reality is too dificult for you to understand. Perhaps Not an Agent should have stayed and completed 3rd grade.
Let’s say credit scoring is eliminated from insurance pricing. What’s next? What if studys find that minority groups are over represented when looking at bad driving records? Is Consumers Union going to demand that auto insurers not use driving records for pricing?
“Insurance companies’ scoring formulas are for the most part confidential and there is no single mathematical model for how insurers use credit information to influence insurance decisions or for how they derive insurance scores from credit information.”
Except for the few very large companies, the algorythms used in calculating a score is not their own, rather one of the three algorythms used by most other companies to calculate a credit score.
Bet you didn’t know that there were three algorythms and guess what… each one weighs the information in your credit file just slightly differently.
How about minorities over represented in any area? Should 60% of the NBA be determined by race? Let’s drop all the race cards and move on with our society!
“Insurance companies’ scoring formulas are for the most part confidential and there is no single mathematical model for how insurers use credit information to influence insurance decisions or for how they derive insurance scores from credit information.
Because of this, Consumers Union maintains that it’s hard for consumers to gauge what they can do differently to increase an insurance score, or even to know what factors are viewed more favorably by different insurers.”
Because of the above paragraphs, I am against insurance scoring. If companies can make it transparent then it should be used. I know that if I drive safely, it will not affect my insurance premium. However, I do not know if I pay my bill on time that it will not affect my insurance premium because this is not about only paying my bill on time….it is about unknown factors that the companies are not disclosing. Who is reaping the benefits (extra premium) from insurance scoring? Not the average insurance workers, it is the executives and CEOs. And, yes insurance scoring results in extra premium for companies, but the legislatures cannot figure it out because of the SECRET formulas. Companies need to play fair and disclose how they rate for insurance scoring…they do it for everything else. Why the need for secret formulas?
Why do these phonies pretend that minorities are all farm workers incapable of maintaining good credit scores? Why do they insult minorities like this? Why do they think minorities are not capable of of being responsible. It is time for this racism to end, the real racism is not in the credit score, but to those who insult minorities as those who have bad credit. People create their own credit problems and certainly not someone’s skin color! To consumer union…please stop this outragious bigotry!
Sorry Ellie but you are wrong. Using any pricing factor is about pricing the risk appropriately not about gouging the customers so CEOs can get rich. Company pricing people (yes I am one of them) will tell you that when credit is uesed, 60-70% of customers get a lower rate than they would recieve without using it. As for this claim about discrimination, no where do we know the race of a customer when the price is determined.
Don’t like the way your company has priced your insurance… shop around. The reason why each company has different models and attempts to keep them from their competitors is for that very reason… it’s an open market.
When I book my plane tickets I have no idea why the airline charges one fee one day and another if I take the same trip the following week. Further, the person sitting next to me probably paid more or less than I did. Instead of asking for transparency from the airlines, I simply shop around and find the price that matches my schedule, budget, preferences etc. With the quoting engines available on the internet, why is there a need for consumer pricing transparency in insurance? Insurance regulators protect the public by assuring that rates are neither excessive nor unfairly discriminatory.
1) White people are a minority when you look at the entire world, so get off the minority train.
2) Race is a predictor of certain behaviors. All people are not equal, everyone is not the same. To deny this is to ignore logic and empirical evidence. Stop playing the race card.
3) It’s a free market. Over time, everyone wins because the wealth of the nation grows. To disagree with this ignores the entire history of this country. Stop trying to socialize the US and move to Canada or to Europe.
4) If the minorities are having issues, then instead of complaining, why don’t they start their own insurance company and not use credit scoring. Then, if they can make it work against mathematical odds, they can prove that it shouldn’t be used. Until this happens, let’s keep doing things in a way that works.
Insurers claim that a person’s credit score is an accurate predictor of whether they are going to file a claim. In other words people with worse credit scores are worse drivers. The industry funded studies to ‘prove’ their position (big surprise).
Ms. Garcia from the Consumers Group states that more than 50% of all Afro Americans are in the bottom quartile of all credit scores and 50% of all Hispaincs fall into the lowest 1/3 of all credit scores. While I don’t know the accuracy of those statistics they do not surprise me since these two groups have the least job security and are traditionally the lowest paid wage earners, i.e. last hired and first fired..
Let’s do a study to see what the correlation is of African Americans and Hispaics when you compare their relative position of their creidt scores to their actual driving experience. If insurers are correct then African Americans should be involved on a per driver basis in more accidents than those with top credit scores. My guess is you will not find such a correlation since it is totally preposterous that driving ability/skills has a direct correlation to your credit or FICO score.
Ms. Garcia is kind when she says insurers may not intend to discriminate but the fact is they do. It is a sanitized form of discrimination since everyone claims they did not create the FICO scoring system. The fact is the Fair Isaacs Company has never been required to publicly disclose their model and have it challenged as to the accuracy of its assumptions and calculations. Furthermore, insurers have develop their own scoring methodology based on credit information which we all know is often inaccurate. here is a novel idea: Let’s have Congress take a good hard look at Fair Isaacs model and have outside experts examine their ‘black box’ to see if their basic assumptions are valid and not themselves discriminatory.
Bottom line, how a person pays their bills has zero relevance to a person’s driving ability or propensity for accidents.Unfortunately, unlike the insurance industry, I don’t have millions of dollars to hire ‘experts’ and fund ‘studies’ to ‘prove’ what I say is true.
“While I don’t know the accuracy of those statistics they do not surprise me since these two groups have the least job security and are traditionally the lowest paid wage earners, i.e. last hired and first fired..”
Rolf, your alligations about minorities above is very serious, what kind of statistics do you have? Oh, but the way, come back under a different name because you will never be able to back up such an outragious conclusion!
In this day and age, where a minorities are in the top leadership in America, CEO of major corporations, Rolf’s racist and backwards way of thinking mirrors that of the racist consumers union!
Why can’t we just charge the person who actually has the accdent more? OOPs sorry we already do that. The credit scoring is double charging. It is a way to charge more and streach the “those with a higher score pay less” argument to make it seem like everyone gets a discount.
We say this over and over again, the underwriting is based on who is most likely to file a claim. This has nothing to do with the individual, it’s based on the law of large numbers. Unless you can tell the future you can’t determine which individual will actually have a claim. You can only tell who is most likely to have a claim. The majority of those insured get a discount based on their good scores. The numbers are there, nobody wants to listen.
You can run numbers through a computer, changing the algorithms until you get the answer you want. you can skew the questions in a survey so that the answer always gives credence to your premise.
un Fair Issak had years to work on the algorithms until they got what they wanted. then sold the skewed answer to the insurance companies. As always Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. charge after there is an accident you cannot predict when or who until then.
I lived in Southern California for 10 years and was hit by Latinos on 2 different occassions. Neither one had insurance, so what does the credit score matter???
Why do some people want to tinker with the free market? A free market delivers very cost effective products and delivers us the highest stand of living possible. If credit scores don’t mean anything, then there will be an enterprising company out there that will want to over look credit score. If all use credit scoring, then credit scorning must be serious indicator of claims. Insurance companies don’t collect more, but the re-align who should pay more and who should pay less.
To presume that someone’s race has something to do with their credit score presumes that it is not possible for people of certain races to achieve a good credit score…that in itself is racist.
As far as the immigrant argument, people who come to America need to learn our system of credit and to use it responsibly. Irresponsible immigrants can come from Europe, where is the consumer union fighting for these people???
You don’t need millions of dollars to conduct your own study on credit – you can just access one of the many (besides the FTC study) that have been already done. One of the more famous is a study commissioned by the Texas DOI through the University of Texas. There have also been studies commissioned by the Oregon DOI and the National Association of Insurance Commissioners (the EPIC study). You can Google these for more information.
While we can speculate on the reasons, the statistical correlation between credit and future loss experience is irrefutable. Using statistical evidence and rating models that are blind to factors such as ethinicity, race, religion etc. seems the best way to avoid discriminatory practices, doesn’t it?
Ms. Garcia’s contention is of disparate impact which is not the same thing as challenging whether credit is an accurate predictor of future losses. As an aside, her assertions run contrary to a study done by Washington State that was designed to examine the correlation between race and credit scores. Other than improvement for Asian-Americans, that study could not show a significant correlation between race and credit scores.
And when considering the impact of credit, don’t forget that an estimated 70% of consumers realize a rate DECREASE when credit is part of the rating criteria.
Insurance companies use credit scores as a substitute for losses because potential insureds are not generally reliable about disclosing their past driving record; hence the need for a new predictive model for losses and then profitability.
And last I checked, minorities’ money is the same color as non minorities-isn’t in the best interest of carriers to insure good drivers of whatever race, creed or color and avoid those who are poor also irregardless of the above?
For cryin’ out loud an insurance carrier would go broke if it used a predicitve model that rewarded ANYTHING but the greater possibility of earning an underwriting profit. The consumer groups need to get real jobs and quit leeching off the rest of us.
“Insurance premiums should be based on the risk of an accident, not a consumer’s bill paying record for other goods and services.”
Aside from the obvious point that credit does predict losses, a more fundamental question arises.
Norma Garcia makes this assertion as if she has some moral right to tell other people how to run their businesses.
If Ms. Garcia is insured and causes an auto accident, somebody else is risking capital to pay for the damages she causes. In return for a fee of a few hundred dollars a year, an insurer (i.e., people who own stock in the insurance company) will pay 25,000 or 50,000, or 100,000 or 500,000 to the person she injures.
Who on earth is she to tell other people what terms they should set for risking their capital? It’s not her money. It’s theirs!
If she is so knowledgeable about what insurance companies “ought” to do maybe she should start an insurance company. Then if she wishes to do so, she can base her rates on “the risk of an accident, not a consumer’s bill paying record for other goods and services.”
Ms. Garcia would not make a dime underwriting insurance because insurance cannot be underwritten on emotions and false premises. Socialist talk, but they can never practice that they preach. Instead, they live an emotional life of being angry and offended.
good point well taken. however, today, with auto insurance being mandatory,the free market, go anywhere, rationale cannot be used. insurance companies should, and must, seek all avenues to write profitable business and credit scoring is an accurate predictor of loss. it is a proven fact. however, the actuarial graph for credit scoring is exactly the same as using an insured driving record. in calif we also have CLUE, where all accidents are reported and filed. now, since we have two identical means of predicting loss why plow forward with the one that is so controversial? using credit scores can unveil a person who has a clean record but poor credit but is the risk worth the bad press? by everyones writings here, only 30 percent of the people are affected. insurance companies have a history of going against public opinion and having their head handed to them in a basket. in calif, the ins. industry threw good money after bad in a vain effort to get a failed proposition passed and the voters passed the worst possible proposition in retailation. credit scoring could be next. the PERCEPTION that it is discriminatory is enough to sink it and we really don’t need it as it duplicates a sound actuarial map, the persons driving record. if driving records are not complete, use the money to perfect it, don’t continue to heap more scorn on our industry. it is not worth it.
You are missing the point. It has been shown that race does have to do with credit scoring because typically the poorest are non-whites, meaning if you are using credit scoring and most of the poorest people have an ethnic background then you are guilty of being racist. Sorry but you all know EXACTLY what you are doing and in fact you are praying on the poorest to fatten up your CEO’s wallets and then you go to sleep with no conscious. Also like another poster pointed out….if it has to be a secret formula that NO one can no then it MUST be shady because only hidden things are shady and we all know that the insurance industry is a very shady business!
Let’s do some scientific research using two methods, A and B. Method A – take 50,000 auto collisions at random from 50 auto carriers and look at the data for the “at fault” driver. Lo and behold 60% have low credit scores. Therefore, low credit score means more likely to be involved in an at-fault collision. Method B – select 50,000 drivers at random and follow them for 10 years and gather all types of data about them including credit score and changes in the credit score. After 10 years look at the data. (To the best of my knowledge, this has not been done yet.) Now publish the results. Method A is “junk science” and can be used to prove eating mashed potatoes in preference to baked potatoes has a direct correlation to the potential to file an insurance claim. Method B is real bonafide research and is valid. When doing research, the researcher does not set out to prove any type of relationship. The data is collected and analyzed by competent statisticians and actuaries and the results speak for themselves. So where is the research that was done for 10 or 15 or 20 years by a competent entity that proves credit score has any relationship at all to the potential to file an insurance claim or be the cause of an “at fault” collision?
These famous “studies” are all Method A (backwards research looking for common threads to justify a currently held theory). Show me the real research interpreted by expert professional researchers into language I can understand (a cinch for real professionals) and I’ll reconsider that the use of credit scoring for anything but the lending of money is not baloney.
Yes, this is my real name (I am not a sock puppet or a coward). I welcome intelligent and thoughtful correspondence regarding this travesty. The emperor has no clothes!
Are you kidding!! You really are comparing your travel plans to people who HAVE to get insurance??? While you can pick and choose to go on a vacation there are many who can NOT pick or choose whether they want insurance or not. It is required on Auto and for anyone who buys a house…get real lady and come down to earth!
Credit does not have anything to do with one’s income, credit has everything to do with responsibility. Many rich people are slimey and rip off society (that is how they became some become rich). These folks are also efected by credit scoring. As for the poor having credit scores, they get huge tax breaks as well as subsidies. There is no law out there that says if you are poor, you don’t have to pay your bills! Enough is enough with this emotional cry baby nonsense. Credit is equal opportunity, it hits all races and all incomes. We cannot reward irresponsility and cost society billions due to ripping society off from not paying their bills and having more claims!
‘Also like another poster pointed out….if it has to be a secret formula that NO one can no then it MUST be shady because only hidden things are shady and we all know that the insurance industry is a very shady business’.
You know, not an agent, I am not privy to the recipe for Coca Cola. That’s because it is proprietary. ‘It is a secret formula that NO one can no (sic) then it must be shady.’ For the last freakin time, insurers are trying for a competitive edge when trying to entice policyholders to switch companies. Nobody calls my office asking if we use credit scores – they call asking HOW MUCH WILL IT COST? Guess what, not an agent and probably a money grubbing attorney, they don’t care if we use credit score if we are ten cents less per month than Farmers. Furthermore, the only way credit scoring made it through my State commissioner and legislative body is by
proving that the same amount of premium dollars are paid each year, but better drivers pay less and worse drivers pay more. It is a zero sum game in my state.
So who are you mad at? Insurers vying to offer the lowest rate to the lowest risk drivers? Or are you mad at my Insurance commissioner or state legislators? Are you mad at insureds who shop around for the lowest rate, credit scoring be damned? Or are you mad at your third grade teacher who was unable to teach you to spell and apply good grammar?
Gil, I would not call him an idiot as name calling does not solve anything. These people are emotional and perhaps uneducated about reality (perhaps they are part of this reality that they don’t want to admit).
He is entitled to his opinion. Thank God his opinion does not prevail in America as we would be a third world country if it did!
nothing. But people like not an agent would have us live in third world conditions because in his mind we should all dress alike, drive the same car and live in giant projects like the ones I saw in China last year. For him free enterprise, and any ingenuity or initiative that goes along with it, is BAD. What drives credit scoring? The same thing that causes people to shop at Walmart instead of the local hardware or grocery store. If it is five cents cheaper then the not an agents of the world will manage to that. Never mind that the local hardware store has sponsered little league for the last ten years or hosted rotary. The not an agents of the world complain about injustice but themselves have no loyalty
and at the end of the day offer nothing to their own or any other community.
it is nice to see a sane posting on this subject. i deal with p/c, auto and home primarily, so i am referring primarily to auto ins. i believe that credit scoring is an acceptable u/w tool for all forms of insurance except auto. auto ins. in todays world is unique. it is forced on all of us regardless of need or want. we cannot choose to have auto ins. my point is that the tools given the industry now are adequate for what the industry needs to underwrite AUTO ins. all other forms of insurance should have all the tools at their disposal to judge the risk. you are right that not all claims are reported for w/c and businesses, etc so credit scoring is needed. in calif the tickets and accidents are available readily through DMV and CLUE. since the graphs for driving records and credit scores are identical why create the stress? compromise. this is what has made our country great in the past. it is a foreign concept today. these postings show that the narrow minded-my way or the hiway-mentality prevails everywhere. that is a shame.
You know, this all sounds familiar..who is most likely to file a claim..kinda like guilty without a trial? So we punish someone up front because they might file a claim in the future? hmmmmm……..
Not punishment, making appropriate charge for the exposure. Those less likely to file a claim get a discount. Learn a little about the actual business of insurance before making these comments.
You know dear, you might learn some manners. Why don’t you realize that it is ok not to have the same opinion as your little mind. That, by the way, is what made this country great, not just your incessant bleating. And just for your edification (big words scare you?) I probably have more degrees in insurance than you dream of.
I have been insulted for having an opinion on this site a lot. Get used to it. Your degrees mean nothing if you don’t learn anything about how our product works in the real world. That’s my opinion. If you find my stating my opinion insulting, that’s your problem.
“Nobody is forced to buy a car.” Sorry but only a moron would make a ridiculous statement like that. I guess no one is forced into eating food either. If you want to argue intelligently then stop making outlandish statements! Free enterprise is a wonderful thing, however there are some companies (insurance being one of them) who need regulations because if un-regulated they would run ramped and cause economic disaster like they have tried to do with homeowners insurance and healthcare. As for it being an emotional issue, it is! There are over 80 million people in the USA that have no health care because they can’t afford it, and the foreclosure rates continue to rise as people are no longer able to afford to insure their homes. You have to be a very narcissistic person who only believes in self-preservation and prosperity for yourself! Continue to put you head in the sand and see what happens. People will only take so much of being cheated and gouged by an industry run by greed!
I have been insulted for having an opinion, just as you feel you have been. I don’t state my opinion on things I know little about. You should try the same policy. If you want to post on this site you better grow a thicker skin.
It is painfully obvious you don’t live in Florida; I do and have for over 40 years. In that time I have NEVER been affected by a hurricane. The insurance companies try to scare people into believing they are going to be blown away by the next hurricane. In fact Florida has had only two category 5 storms, once in 1928 Okeechobee Hurricane and Hurricane Andrew in 1992 (which by the way was deemed a Cat 5 AFTER the storm). The only economic ramification Florida is having is the un-affordable homeowners insurance. I have an employee who does NOT live on the water and owns a 960 sq foot home that is paying $8700 a year for homeowners insurance. That is almost DOUBLE what his mortgage is. Do you really think this is fair??
P.S. Trust me darling…I have more of an education then ANY agent, and most of your CEO’s! By the way do agents even have to go to college? Doesn’t appear to be a requirement. The only requirements I see is the need to be a greedy, self-serving, and the ability to make their CEO’s billions!!
And we allow these people to vote. No wonder the country is going downhill.
NOT AN AGENT, keep taxing the rich to feed the poor. You’re a regular Robin Hood. OR… get some personal responsibility and realize you make your own destiny and quit blaming your problems on others. People like you hate the free market since you are not smart enough to understand it. If you don’t like it, why don’t you move to a more socialist country? What’s that you say? America is better? Hmmm… I wonder why. Grow up.
WOW, I guess you believe only the rich and powerful should vote! Get a life!
As for personal responsibility, you all should talk! I don’t believe I have EVER made any statement that “I” am having problems. What I HAVE said is the insurance industry is FULL of problems and is a greed-based business. I do not hate the free market but I do hate people/companies that take advantage of people. That is NOT what the “free market” is about but it is what the insurance industry is turning it into. There are many well run companies that make a great profit each year and they don’t do it my lying, and cheating people out of their hard earned money. Keep squeezing the little guy and see what will happen. You empire will fall….it is in the history books! History always repeats itself, so enjoy you big fat paychecks that were made off the backs of the poor and I will sit back and watch you all fall!
Unbelievable. Why do you keep commenting on a subject you obviously have no knowledge of dispite your high opinion of yourself? This is a complicated business because of all of the laws and legal decisions over the past 150 years and more. It’s way to complicated for someone like yourself who gives all appearance of not understanding how a business of any kind actually works. As another poster said, grow up. I am also continually amazed at the hate a lot of people in this country have for anyone who is paid more than what they think is ok. If someone makes a lot of money, according to you they must be cheating someone. Grow up.
Just so you know, not all Agents are as idiotic as some on this blog appear! I have been on both sides of the industry and must admit there are idiots on both sides….I am beginning to think it’s all those “white anglo-saxon men” that think they are entitled to dream up all these schemes like credit scoring. Kinda like their way of getting back since they can no longer discriminate in other ways. I love the part about “they have a higher likelihood of filing a future claim”, so lets charge them now in case they actually do! Let’s not wait till they have a claim and then sur-charge them, we might never get out money back!..oh oh wait a minute, what was the definition of insurance?
How can you argue with an individual as poorly informed and hateful as this one? You have problems all right, but they are more a lack of comprehension of anything to do with the insurance business. Go rant against some other business you might understand better, I just can’t think of one that wants to give their product away at a loss. Sorry.
I never said “only the rich and powerful” should vote. However, I would be happy to have a threshold for IQ or some other measurement of intelligence as a qualifier.
You see, some people are incapable of making intelligent decisions. And we jeopardize the future of the country under the guise of “democracy.”
People like you want to take money from the wealthy. You are happy they already pay for the majority of the federal budget. But you still want more more more. All that results is a continuing decrease in the incentives to make money. And a basic understanding of economics will tell you why that is not good for ANYONE.
It’s time the so-called “poor” start thanking the rich for their ingenuity and making this country the wealthiest country in the world. Greed is good. The wealth of this nation is based on greed and work ethic. If you don’t like it, leave.
Just curious, do you purchase insurance presently? Obviously you have a very low opinion of the industry but do you believe in the concept of insurance? And one other question, since you seem to feel this industry (I assume from top to bottom) is rife with fat cat greedy SOBs; can you please tell me whom I should contact so I can be one too? Somehow I missed the boat…
Just for your education, I’m not an agent, I’m a home office person who happens to be one of those white anglo-saxon men you feel free to insult. See, it’s easy to insult someone. Now who is the bad person. Credit scoring is not a scheme to cheat the poor or disadvataged. If you want to buy the line of the insurance company haters on this without actually looking at the facts, that’s your privilage. Just don’t demand to be respected for that opinion.
GREED IS GOOD? Boy do I feel sorry for you. I take back everything I was thinking of you. You are a sad sad person. I am willing to bet you don’t believe in God because if you did you will remember this passage.
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24)
As for using someone’s IQ for voting requirements I am sure you would not meet the requirement yourself because you are a simple minded person who has NO moral compass or compassion.
Furthermore, let me point something else out to you flower children.
There are several tenants that are essential for a country to become wealthy like the honoring of contracts, private property, and what do you know, insurance.
Look at the countries that don’t have established insurance industries and compare them to the countries that do have insurance. YOU HAVE A CHOICE to move to one of those countries. Now why don’t you? Oh that’s right, because those countries are generally crap holes. This is not some magical coincidence.
Wow, your posts are getting dumber each time. All of the loss information for Florida property insurance is public information available through the insurance departement. Oh, they are probably in on the conspiracy to cheat you. Sorry.
I do purchase insurance. I have life insurance, homeowners insurance, auto insurance, jewelry insurance, health insurance, and dental insurance. I think that’s all of them. I do believe in the concept of insurance and believe it was started as a means to help people when something un-expected happened. What has become of insurance is the increases outweigh the advantage of insurance in many cases. The insurance industry spends millions of dollars trying to find out ways not to pay on claims, or not cover so many things. As an example I have been on a prescription medication for the past 8 years, and two months ago my health insurance decided not to cover that medication anymore….why? Now I have to try several other medications to see if I can get one that works as well as what I have been taking for 8 years. When it comes to health insurance it has become the insurance industry acting as doctors and making medical decisions and overriding doctors orders. It is out of control.
I don’t hate all agents, just the obnoxious ones posting on this site. Actually I have a very good friend who is an agent for State Farm and even she believes her industry is greedy.
I believe you can explain a lot with the Bible, but you will need to do so in order for others to understand. Insurance is actually a very biblical concept of helping others. However, people on both sides (policy holders and the insurance companies) are only human and are sinful by nature and therefore both sides try to cheat both sides. You don’t blame policyholders for not trying to be cheated, so don’t blame the industry for doing the same thing.
As you say, insurance could be thought of as mandatory, however, there are many choices as to how and where you can buy your insurance. It is not a monopoly, it is not a utility company, and therefore the market is self-regulating through consumers’ choices.
As to the verse you quoted, having material wealth comes with a great deal of responsibility. It takes a certain kind of person to handle that responsibility. How often have you heard of someone winning the lottery and then a couple years later they file for bankruptcy or have nothing left. Wealthy people are faced with more material temptation, and “false gods,” and therefore it is harder for them to follow God, according to the context of the verse.
Now, wealthy people may have more resources to use to rip people off, but are no more or less sinful (or greedy) than the next person. So if you talk about greed as a sin, then everyone is guilty. And if you think it should be legislated against, than join an Islamic country. Seperation of church and state is mandatory for a free society.
You cannot deny the truth that the existence of the US insurance industry has made everyone in this country better off. And a quick study will show that without investment income, many companies have lost money OVER TIME. You cannot take one year of healthy profits as evidence for the industry being “greedy.” In fact, when the industry loses money, are people ranting and raving about how “giving” and “kind” the industry was to give up their capital? No, of course not, that would not fit the liberal’s agenda of telling everyone how to live their life.
At one point in time insurance was a concept of helping others but it has turned into a race between companies to see who can be the biggest and the richest. It has gone way off track of helping people. I look at insurance as a necessary evil. I must have iton my auto and my home and here in Florida there is no fee market to shop for insurance is you can find someone writing then you go with them. There are very few writing policies in Florida that is why Citizens insurance has grown so big in this state.
You hit the nail right on the head when you said with wealth comes great responsibility. It is the responsibility of the wealthy to help those who are less fortunate then they are. That is the right thing to do, whether you do it because of your faith, your conscious, or you moral compass. I make a good deal of money but will never be “rich” because I feel it is my responsibility to help those who do not have what I do. As for the separation of state and church may I remind you that this country was founded on Christian beliefs and God.
As for sinners, yes we all are sinners in one aspect or another but there is a difference between trying to be good and do the right thing and those who just don’t care and continue to sin in the name of big business and fat paychecks.
I don’t really agree that the insurance industry has made everyone better off. I actually believe that it hasn’t and again has become a necessary evil. The insurance industry has created the increase in lawyers, lawsuits, fraud, and of course greed. I don’t see that as being good.
I am by no means a socialist however I do believe in good and evil and right and wrong. If the insurance industry would be brought back to what it was meant to do then I would back it 100% but I don’t see that happening so I will push for tougher laws and regulations to keep them in check.
I know how you make your living. You invented class envy. You have no knowledge of the history of insurance or how the product works. You buy a couple of policies and think you are some kind of expert. You advertise your ignorance every time you post your under thought and over worded posts.
Heck, I can keep this up all day. You must be just about out of stupid pills. Sorry for the line of insults in this posting, but I am so sick of self-appointed experts telling all of us how evil and greedy our business is. We are a legal and moral business entitled to a profit. If that’s your definition of greedy too bad. I like what I do and find that what I do helps a lot of people. Other people like NOT AN AGENT bring out the worst in me due to their complete lack of thought. Maybe this poster should next go on to the banking, oil, investment and other greedy industries and tell them how greedy and immoral they are without any knowledge of what they do or why they do it.
Well I do not think we will come to agreement on many topics. I understand this country was founded on Christian beliefs and God. Trust me, I’d love to make Islam illegal. But it just cannot be done. Power corrupts, remember the Catholic church’s control in Europe, or the islamic control in muslim countries. It would happen again. It just cannot be done as good as it sounds.
I have personally met dozens of CEO’s for insurance companies and work with others who have done the same. I know you won’t believe me, but the majority of people are not as you say. They are just like everyone else, only they have a special gift of leadership and the intelligence to back it up. I myself know that I am not one of these people since that is not in my capacity, but I do not insult them because of it.
I urge you to contemplate this question: “What makes a nation wealthy?” or another way to ask it, “What increases a nations wealth?”
It is a question that many people never ask themselves. You yourself admitted to having a financially healthy life. Who has created these opportunities for you.
I am getting wordy and will have to continue in another post…
Take Bill Gates for example. He is undoubtedly wealthy. However, Microsoft still charges a lot of money (in my opinion) for Microsoft Office. I could get on a soapbox about how they are gouging consumers, how all consumers should have “equal rights” to obtain it (i.e. the rich pay more and the poor pay less), etc etc, your typical taking money from the rich to give to the poor agenda (which is nothing more than steeling may I remind you). However, instead of complaining about Microsoft, I am thankful for what they have done for our country and humanity. I can connect with people all over the country. We in fact would probably not be having this conversation if it wasn’t for them.
Insurance still exists to help the less-fortunate. However, the definition of “less-fortunate” is not the typical definition. It is those that are less fortunate and have an accident, or have unexpected things happen to them, whether rich or poor.
Here is some of what Bill Gates has done with his wealth. Can you provide anything that your CEO’s have done that would even compare a teeny tiny bit. I think not.
$1 billion over 20 years to establish the Gates Millennium Scholarship Program, which will support promising minority students through college and some kinds of graduate school.
$750 million over five years to the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization, which includes the World Health Organization, the Rockefeller Foundation, Unicef, pharmaceutical companies and the World Bank.
$350 million over three years to teachers, administrators, school districts and schools to improve America’s K-12 education, starting in Washington State.
$200 million to the Gates Library Program, which is wiring public libraries in America’s poorest communities in an effort to close the “digital divide.”
$100 million to the Gates Children’s Vaccine Program, which will accelerate delivery of lifesaving vaccines to children in the poorest countries of the world.
$50 million to the Maternal Mortality Reduction Program, run by the Columbia University School of Public Health.
$50 million to the Malaria Vaccine Initiative, to conduct research on promising candidates for a malaria vaccine.
$50 million to an international group called the Alliance for the Prevention of Cervical Cancer.
$50 million to a fund for global polio eradication, led by the World Health Organization, Unicef, Rotary International and the U.N. Foundation.
$40 million to the International Vaccine Institute, a research program based in Seoul, South Korea.
$28 million to Unicef for the elimination of maternal and neonatal tetanus.
$25 million to the Sequella Global Tuberculosis Foundation.
$25 million to the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative, which is creating coalitions of research scientists, pharmaceutical companies and governments in developing countries to look for a safe, effective, widely accessible vaccine against AIDS
Nicely put Come on. I have to apologize for taking the low road on this line when I see the high road you are taking. Unfortunately, I don’t believe either method is getting through to this poster. I will set my goal of posting more thoughtful responses in the future.
Thanks for the kind words Nobody. We have clashed in the past but glad we can come together on this one. Anyway, I am bored with the high road, so if you want to take over that would be great. I’m going to take the low road for awhile, starting now.
NOT AN AGENT: looks like Bill Gates does not believe in survival of the fitest. He doesn’t do these things because he is some kind-hearted person, he does this to avoid paying millions more in taxes (i.e. legal THEFT) and for good publicity. Glad to see he has outsmarted you as that would fit the stereotype.
If I had lots of time to waste I could come up with charitable gifts for all sorts of CEO’s. It’s pretty common.
I have heard many insults about Bill Gates and Microsoft over the years. I have heard them referred to as the evil empire and seen accusations of all sorts of illegal acts. Every industry or business has good and bad people. Money doesn’t make you bad or good. How much research have you done on the greedy CEO’s in the insurance industry to see how they use their money? If you had, you would see some good and some bad. Making money doesn’t make you evil. You are or aren’t. I know a lot of people in our industry and few actually get rich. This is not the place to go to get lots of money. Few people have made a lot of money and my experience has been that those who have made it deserve it. I’m sure not all do, but I don’t personally know any who don’t.
I don’t recall having grappled with you on the vital issues in the past. All I ask from any poster is that they stop villifying all insurance companies and personnel as evil automotons. I ask that they learn more about us than the anti-insurance industry teaches them through sound bites and half-truths. Your post was nicely worded and thoughtful. Our buddy NOT AN AGENT has no knowledge or thought behind his or her posts, just an intense hate of our industry. Class envy may be the great problem that will curse this country to future mediocrity. We certainly seem headed in that direction.
Please…survival of the fittest? Even with all his charitable contributions he has plenty of money to survive. It is not he who dies with the most amount of money goes to heaven. I do agree that many of the wealthy give to charities to avoid taxes but trust me the poor that benefit from these charities doesn’t care if it saved the guy some money in taxes but that he DID something other then spend like there is no tomorrow with all his wealth. Remember Bill Gates was YOUR pick.
The reason you don’t have time to find charitable gifts of your CEO’s because they’re probably aren’t any.
NOT AN AGENT: Well, personally it is time for me to get back to my GREEDY job in my GREEDY industry and GREEDILY make myself money without having it benefit anyone but MYSELF. I really don’t have anything more to say to you at this point except one of my favorite quotes:
“If you’re not a liberal by the time your 18, you don’t have a heart. If your not a conservative by the time you’re 40, you don’t have a brain.”
its amazing how easily simple minds are distracted. it takes more effort to redirect my three year old grandson than it took to redirect you from the subject at hand. this was a discussion about credit scoring. i would direct you and anyone interested in this subject to read DarNovak post on 7/25/07 at 5;46PM. that is the definitive statement on the subject at hand. the rest is mindless rantings by people with axes to gring.
thing – that there are those who hate us and anything to do with the service we thankfully provide. If it weren’t for insurance, much of what takes place in America would not happen. Goods and services would not be transacted, projects would never happen, international trade would be handcuffed.
Boneheads like not an agent hate insurance and care not about pricing or methods or for that matter the centuries old history of insurance which, by the way, facilitated world exploration in the middle ages. Not an agent must have had a bad claim on a stolen car radio and didnt like ACV instead of replacement cost. But not an agent can enjoy a bright future while living in Florida and experiencing Citizens Insurance. The utopia that she envisions by removing greedy Mutual (policyholder owned for the uneducated Not an agent) and stock held
(thats when companies answer to stockholders Not an agent, like in your mutual fund) will be borne when she pays twice what she should with her long awaited Citizens policy. The premium is lower you bleat, Not an agent? Sorry, even in your addled mind there is not something for nothing. Ignore history and common sense, lady. The rest of us know the real story.
FYI Gill, I have NEVER had a claim, not even a traffic ticket or accident! Nothing stolen, no hurricanes, medical disaster, nothing! You all think that because I see your business/industry as a greedy self-serving corrupt business that I must have had a bad experience but that is not true. I just see it for what it is. I also do not have Citizens Insurance although I know many who do and in many circumstances is a better deal then some private companies.
It is obvious you all answer to your stockholders…you tell them how much money you all are raking in and then go in front of our insurance commissioner and tell them how much money you are loosing. HMMMMM what’s up with that?
You just keep ignoring history and we will see who wins in the end!
A car is not a necessity. If you live in an area where there is public transportation you don’t have to have a car. I live in Chicago and have made the decision not to have a car because the costs are too high, including insurance. Obviously, a car and food cannot be compared to one another. It’s like comparing autos to oranges…
This business is all about history, which you are totally ignorant of. Insurance is highly regulated in every state. We send every detail of everything we do to the state insurance departments per the law. Most insurance regulators seem to think of themselves as consumer advocates, especially in Florida. That’s why I recommend that you find out what you can from them. Of course, if you are one who thinks that the government is not to be trusted either, I don’t know what to tell you. We file rates, rules, forms procedures and if we don’t follow them, the insurance departments fine us. I can’t think of any other industry that is more heavily regulated. Again, you need to acutally do a little research on the subject other than listening to insurance company haters. This business has a long and distingushed history. I know you think otherwise, but you are way off in your thinking.
Some of us don’t live in a city or have public transportation. I have never been on a subway (we don’t have them here) and we do not have public busing. Maybe if we did i could DECIDE not to have a car but where I live it IS a necessity.
then move somewhere there is public transportation. Everyone has options, but they aren’t always willing to see them. Ride your bike or a scooter. You don’t have to have insurance on those. Live closer to work where you can walk. To you a car is a situational necessity, not an absolute necessity like food.
You make good points concerned, but what you might have in California, other states may not have. Further, in lines like WC where the NCCI is supposed to receive all claims, not all insureds get their claims reported correctly or accurately and some reporting carriers fail to submit unit stat cards at all. How many ex mods are jsut plain wrong? Trust me, if I as an underwriter could get credible loss information without having it be filtered by an agent or insured, then my job would be far easier. Its exactly for that reason that carriers can’t trust that the information they get is valid and accurate that another tool is needed to accurately price the business.
I don’t think that the backlash you refer to is all that real. Prop 103 was stirred by a demogogue who promised everyone a free lunch. The industry responded by doing damage control in the form of its own props, but didn’t offer what Harvey could. People took the bait. I know as I was in So Cal at the time.
I would still think that as long as scoring has statistical credibility, it should be used as a valid tool for pricing and risk acceptibility.
if you are retarded you mean less to the Insuance if you have little money you have to pay more ? Do not have a retarded child who is harmed in a car because the way they will score your child will make you cry……. you have to be in the box insurance puts- you in. And get this you pay for this.
Am I the only one who can’t understand a bit of this posting? I take it that there is some implied complaint about insurance scoring, but what it is is beyond my comprehension. Whoever you are, put this in English so we can understand your complaint.
America is who we are! If credit scoring in insurance bothers you, than I am sure there are a ton of things that bother you. The person who has a bigger home across the street bothers you. The guy who makes 20k more a year than you do bothers you. The fact that everyone is not equal bothers you! Thank God those things don’t bother, I just try to do things right and be the best that I can be. People who have class envy are insecure on who they are. If you are tired of being who you are, pay your bills on time, don’t spend a dime more than you can afford, do things in your life that will allow you to have a higher paying job and feel great about yourself. Who wants to live a life of complaining and envy, hell not me!
Give me a min of your time I can about people. The big house the great car all the money in this world does not make you something. Caring about what is wrong and to wakeup—– class is not in your pocket book. My job on this plant is to leave it better ,not see how much stuff I can get that my friend is not how you win at life.
Comment:
It figures that Not an Agent would be from Florida. This is the state that feels that it can ignore reality and force rates down and insurance companies out to make their lives more affordable. Anyone in Florida with any knowledge of reality knows that the next hurricane in that poorly managed state will have incredible economic ramifications. These are far too complicated to explain to the run of low IQ insurance company haters swarming over this site lately. I’m sorry if reality is too . tHINK OF ALL THE MONEY WASTED GO BACK READ ALL HISTORY OF THE FRAUD. THAN GIVE A SCORING OF THAT. THIS FRAUD IS BY THE INSURANCE COPANYS .FOR ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN FIGHTING TO NOT GIVE UP WE NEED TO MAKE THINGS BETTER IHAVE GRANDBABYS
¿Es usted un mexicano? ¿PodrÃa usted aprender por favor nuestra lengua antes de usted tentativa de hacer acusaciones falsas hacia nosotros y nuestra herencia? Usted debe agradecernos que usted puede beber nuestra agua sin pooping su tripa hacia fuera.
Hey! I did my fair share of serious posts. It’s almost time to leave for the day so might as well have some fun. At least you can understand what my posts are saying!
Comment:
Let’s say credit scoring is eliminated from insurance pricing. What’s next? mAY BE WE COULD HAVE PEOPLE REALLY KEEP A EYE ON THE INSURANCE- COPAMPAYS SHOULD NOT BE AFAIRD OF MAKING A JOB OF IT KIND OF LIKE THEY KNOW WE CAN FIND OUT ALL KINDS OF STUFF LIKE READING COURT PAPERS LIKE 800 PLUS NEWS PAPERS THINK ABOUT IT IF YOU HAVE THE TIME WHY NOT KEEP YOUR EYES! OPEN! READING NEWS FROM ALL OVER THANK GOD FOR THE WEB WE CAN ALL POLICE THINGS TO HELP CHANGE THINGS I KNOW I CAN NOT SPELL SO WHAT I CAN READ AND I CAN CARE MY BE THAT IS WAY GOD HAS PLACE ME RIGHT HEAR OR MAYBE WE ALL SHOULD CARE ABOUT EACH OTHER OR MAYBE NOT I WOULD LIKE THIS GREAT COUNTY TO STAY GREAT
Leaving with a bad credit score and a mountain of debt is not going to make this country better, you would leave free loading off everyone else. Look at Bill Gates, what he created, he will leave having left one of the best inventions of all time and such convenience to our lives. What have you left besides internet surfing all day?
Correct, if we cared too much and did not use our brains, we wouldn’t have the economic force to provide people with food and basic needs. Communism and socialism fails everywhere these things are tried, and when we have greedy capitalism, then every eats and not only that, but they eat good!
If DMV reports and the CLUE database were sufficient, insurer’s wouldn’t be using the credit-based scores. The fact that so many insurers use the credit information suggests (and the numbers I work with daily agree) that credit provides predictive power for losses over and above what the driving history can show.
The simple fact is, the vast majority of drivers have a clean record. Driving history does not provide as much segmentation as people think.
Sorry, but I learned that characterizing one class of people as the poorest based on skin color and stereoptyping another group based on their occupation is real discrimination. Think about your own stereotypes please before you call anyone that articulates a viewpoint different then yours racist.
You are so wrong on so many things….first, I don’t shop at Wal-Mart, haven’t in over 8 years because they are a sickening greedy company that makes it’s money is what SHOULD be an illegal way. I am NOT an attorney, as one of the posters guessed because they too are mostly slimy and greedy! I give more to my community then I am sure ANY of you could possibly imagine.
As for Mr. Gill Fin, again you just don’t get it! I don’t NEED to know the secret formula for Coca Cola because I can “CHOOSE” if I want to drink coke or not! I am REQUIRED to purchase insurance…get the difference now! As for competition in the insurance industry the only competition I see is these companies trying to pay their CEO’s the MOST amount of money and bonuses than the other, This is done by GOUGING the Consumer who MUST have insurance whether it be for auto or homeowners. Giving a discount to a driver with a good driving record is GREAT but penalizing a driver who has had a hard time paying the bills is ludicrous! Those credit scores don’t tell a person’s REAL life story, death in the family, loss of job, divorce, and illness. All of these can change a person’s ability to pay their bills on time. I know of many people in Florida that due to the 200% to 500% rate increases in their homeowners insurance have had to take 2nd mortgages and put their insurance bills on their credit cards to pay them. (Just for your info. I am NOT one of those people) Now if you want to know who I am angry at I will tell you….I am angry at the insurance industry for raping people, I am angry at our leadership for allowing us to be raped. (This happens because the insurance industry spends MILLIONS on insurance lobbyist to get things THEIR way and the average homeowner has no MILLIONS to fight back with)
As for my grammar, one should NOT call the kettle black unless he is not the pot!!!
Not me, not HawaiiDuke888. Who requires you to choose any insurance service?
To drive a car in my state you don’t have to buy insurance, you can post a bond instead. And you don’t need to buy insurance to own a condo, so just who is forcing you or anyone to buy insurance?
I had a client in my office today who decided to not insure his home. He owns it free and clear. He’s not very smart as far as I am concerned, but he’s free to do what he wants. How private enterprise is somehow forced upon you remains a mystery to me. You say credit scoring doesn’t tell a persons real life story. Do tickets and accidents tell a persons real life story? Insurers have responded to pressure from the industry to bring down rates. Don’t get your back up when they develop ways to do just that. I know you’ll be happy to know that tickets and accidents still do influence the cost of auto insurance to a greater degree than credit scoring.
Maybe where you are you are not required to carry insurance but by law in Florida you are required by law to carry at least PIP insurance on your car and if it is financed you must carry full-coverage insurance. Also Condo owners must adhere to their condo associations, which require homeowners insurance even if you own your condo free and clear. Yes, you can go without insurance if you own your home and have no mortgage, but there are many more people that have a mortgage then don’t. What I was pointing out is there is a BIG difference between choosing to buy a Coca Cola and needing insurance. It was like comparing apples to oranges. As for tickets and accidents influencing the cost of car insurance that makes more sense then using someone’s credit score.
Some states do require you to buy insurance if you own a car. Nevertheless, nobody is forced to buy a car. Nevertheless, understanding of economics is probably beyond his sophistication as people who argue intelligently know that they must put emotions aside and put logic. The ones who don’t understand logic only frustrate themselves in our great country we call the USA. I thank God I understand how things work which allows me to thrive.
I’ll quote an earlier article from IJ:
“Insurance pricing does allow fair discrimination. If statistics show that you can divide a population in a certain way, even though it might appear to be normally discriminatory, it’s fairly discriminatory because the predicted losses line up with the pricing.”
Insurance pricing is all about segmentation and discrimination. People who pose a higher risk of loss are going to pay more. It’s not a black/hispanic/white issue. It’s a measure of risk of loss.
Instead of complaining that half of African Americans are in the bottom 25% of credit scoring or half of hispanics are in the bottom 33%, lets focus on the half that isn’t and discuss what factors cause the other half to have such poor credit.
I doubt Experian/TransUnion assign lower credit scores simply because someone is a “minority”. Something else other than race is at issue here.
Credit based scoring has been shown to be predictive of risk assessment and loss potential time and time again. It’s not racial discrimination, it’s risk assessment and price segmentation.
Give it a rest already!
It figures that Not an Agent would be from Florida. This is the state that feels that it can ignore reality and force rates down and insurance companies out to make their lives more affordable. Anyone in Florida with any knowledge of reality knows that the next hurricane in that poorly managed state will have incredible economic ramifications. These are far too complicated to explain to the run of low IQ insurance company haters swarming over this site lately. I’m sorry if reality is too dificult for you to understand. Perhaps Not an Agent should have stayed and completed 3rd grade.
Wow, I should talk. I can’t even spell my posting name right.
Let’s say credit scoring is eliminated from insurance pricing. What’s next? What if studys find that minority groups are over represented when looking at bad driving records? Is Consumers Union going to demand that auto insurers not use driving records for pricing?
“Insurance companies’ scoring formulas are for the most part confidential and there is no single mathematical model for how insurers use credit information to influence insurance decisions or for how they derive insurance scores from credit information.”
Except for the few very large companies, the algorythms used in calculating a score is not their own, rather one of the three algorythms used by most other companies to calculate a credit score.
Bet you didn’t know that there were three algorythms and guess what… each one weighs the information in your credit file just slightly differently.
How about minorities over represented in any area? Should 60% of the NBA be determined by race? Let’s drop all the race cards and move on with our society!
Why are credit scores on the average lower for black and Hispanic people?
“Insurance companies’ scoring formulas are for the most part confidential and there is no single mathematical model for how insurers use credit information to influence insurance decisions or for how they derive insurance scores from credit information.
Because of this, Consumers Union maintains that it’s hard for consumers to gauge what they can do differently to increase an insurance score, or even to know what factors are viewed more favorably by different insurers.”
Because of the above paragraphs, I am against insurance scoring. If companies can make it transparent then it should be used. I know that if I drive safely, it will not affect my insurance premium. However, I do not know if I pay my bill on time that it will not affect my insurance premium because this is not about only paying my bill on time….it is about unknown factors that the companies are not disclosing. Who is reaping the benefits (extra premium) from insurance scoring? Not the average insurance workers, it is the executives and CEOs. And, yes insurance scoring results in extra premium for companies, but the legislatures cannot figure it out because of the SECRET formulas. Companies need to play fair and disclose how they rate for insurance scoring…they do it for everything else. Why the need for secret formulas?
Why do these phonies pretend that minorities are all farm workers incapable of maintaining good credit scores? Why do they insult minorities like this? Why do they think minorities are not capable of of being responsible. It is time for this racism to end, the real racism is not in the credit score, but to those who insult minorities as those who have bad credit. People create their own credit problems and certainly not someone’s skin color! To consumer union…please stop this outragious bigotry!
Sorry Ellie but you are wrong. Using any pricing factor is about pricing the risk appropriately not about gouging the customers so CEOs can get rich. Company pricing people (yes I am one of them) will tell you that when credit is uesed, 60-70% of customers get a lower rate than they would recieve without using it. As for this claim about discrimination, no where do we know the race of a customer when the price is determined.
Don’t like the way your company has priced your insurance… shop around. The reason why each company has different models and attempts to keep them from their competitors is for that very reason… it’s an open market.
When I book my plane tickets I have no idea why the airline charges one fee one day and another if I take the same trip the following week. Further, the person sitting next to me probably paid more or less than I did. Instead of asking for transparency from the airlines, I simply shop around and find the price that matches my schedule, budget, preferences etc. With the quoting engines available on the internet, why is there a need for consumer pricing transparency in insurance? Insurance regulators protect the public by assuring that rates are neither excessive nor unfairly discriminatory.
Some facts:
1) White people are a minority when you look at the entire world, so get off the minority train.
2) Race is a predictor of certain behaviors. All people are not equal, everyone is not the same. To deny this is to ignore logic and empirical evidence. Stop playing the race card.
3) It’s a free market. Over time, everyone wins because the wealth of the nation grows. To disagree with this ignores the entire history of this country. Stop trying to socialize the US and move to Canada or to Europe.
4) If the minorities are having issues, then instead of complaining, why don’t they start their own insurance company and not use credit scoring. Then, if they can make it work against mathematical odds, they can prove that it shouldn’t be used. Until this happens, let’s keep doing things in a way that works.
5) Consumer groups: grow up.
Insurers claim that a person’s credit score is an accurate predictor of whether they are going to file a claim. In other words people with worse credit scores are worse drivers. The industry funded studies to ‘prove’ their position (big surprise).
Ms. Garcia from the Consumers Group states that more than 50% of all Afro Americans are in the bottom quartile of all credit scores and 50% of all Hispaincs fall into the lowest 1/3 of all credit scores. While I don’t know the accuracy of those statistics they do not surprise me since these two groups have the least job security and are traditionally the lowest paid wage earners, i.e. last hired and first fired..
Let’s do a study to see what the correlation is of African Americans and Hispaics when you compare their relative position of their creidt scores to their actual driving experience. If insurers are correct then African Americans should be involved on a per driver basis in more accidents than those with top credit scores. My guess is you will not find such a correlation since it is totally preposterous that driving ability/skills has a direct correlation to your credit or FICO score.
Ms. Garcia is kind when she says insurers may not intend to discriminate but the fact is they do. It is a sanitized form of discrimination since everyone claims they did not create the FICO scoring system. The fact is the Fair Isaacs Company has never been required to publicly disclose their model and have it challenged as to the accuracy of its assumptions and calculations. Furthermore, insurers have develop their own scoring methodology based on credit information which we all know is often inaccurate. here is a novel idea: Let’s have Congress take a good hard look at Fair Isaacs model and have outside experts examine their ‘black box’ to see if their basic assumptions are valid and not themselves discriminatory.
Bottom line, how a person pays their bills has zero relevance to a person’s driving ability or propensity for accidents.Unfortunately, unlike the insurance industry, I don’t have millions of dollars to hire ‘experts’ and fund ‘studies’ to ‘prove’ what I say is true.
“While I don’t know the accuracy of those statistics they do not surprise me since these two groups have the least job security and are traditionally the lowest paid wage earners, i.e. last hired and first fired..”
Rolf, your alligations about minorities above is very serious, what kind of statistics do you have? Oh, but the way, come back under a different name because you will never be able to back up such an outragious conclusion!
In this day and age, where a minorities are in the top leadership in America, CEO of major corporations, Rolf’s racist and backwards way of thinking mirrors that of the racist consumers union!
Why can’t we just charge the person who actually has the accdent more? OOPs sorry we already do that. The credit scoring is double charging. It is a way to charge more and streach the “those with a higher score pay less” argument to make it seem like everyone gets a discount.
We say this over and over again, the underwriting is based on who is most likely to file a claim. This has nothing to do with the individual, it’s based on the law of large numbers. Unless you can tell the future you can’t determine which individual will actually have a claim. You can only tell who is most likely to have a claim. The majority of those insured get a discount based on their good scores. The numbers are there, nobody wants to listen.
You can run numbers through a computer, changing the algorithms until you get the answer you want. you can skew the questions in a survey so that the answer always gives credence to your premise.
un Fair Issak had years to work on the algorithms until they got what they wanted. then sold the skewed answer to the insurance companies. As always Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. charge after there is an accident you cannot predict when or who until then.
I lived in Southern California for 10 years and was hit by Latinos on 2 different occassions. Neither one had insurance, so what does the credit score matter???
Why do some people want to tinker with the free market? A free market delivers very cost effective products and delivers us the highest stand of living possible. If credit scores don’t mean anything, then there will be an enterprising company out there that will want to over look credit score. If all use credit scoring, then credit scorning must be serious indicator of claims. Insurance companies don’t collect more, but the re-align who should pay more and who should pay less.
To presume that someone’s race has something to do with their credit score presumes that it is not possible for people of certain races to achieve a good credit score…that in itself is racist.
As far as the immigrant argument, people who come to America need to learn our system of credit and to use it responsibly. Irresponsible immigrants can come from Europe, where is the consumer union fighting for these people???
Exjarhead…understanding what statistics and actuaries is perhaps a too complex of a concept for you to understand.
You don’t need millions of dollars to conduct your own study on credit – you can just access one of the many (besides the FTC study) that have been already done. One of the more famous is a study commissioned by the Texas DOI through the University of Texas. There have also been studies commissioned by the Oregon DOI and the National Association of Insurance Commissioners (the EPIC study). You can Google these for more information.
While we can speculate on the reasons, the statistical correlation between credit and future loss experience is irrefutable. Using statistical evidence and rating models that are blind to factors such as ethinicity, race, religion etc. seems the best way to avoid discriminatory practices, doesn’t it?
Ms. Garcia’s contention is of disparate impact which is not the same thing as challenging whether credit is an accurate predictor of future losses. As an aside, her assertions run contrary to a study done by Washington State that was designed to examine the correlation between race and credit scores. Other than improvement for Asian-Americans, that study could not show a significant correlation between race and credit scores.
And when considering the impact of credit, don’t forget that an estimated 70% of consumers realize a rate DECREASE when credit is part of the rating criteria.
hey kimo
I know enough statistics to know I was 2 for 2 being hit by uninsured beaners. That is 100% for my focus group. go stuff your fat face with poi
Insurance companies use credit scores as a substitute for losses because potential insureds are not generally reliable about disclosing their past driving record; hence the need for a new predictive model for losses and then profitability.
And last I checked, minorities’ money is the same color as non minorities-isn’t in the best interest of carriers to insure good drivers of whatever race, creed or color and avoid those who are poor also irregardless of the above?
For cryin’ out loud an insurance carrier would go broke if it used a predicitve model that rewarded ANYTHING but the greater possibility of earning an underwriting profit. The consumer groups need to get real jobs and quit leeching off the rest of us.
“Insurance premiums should be based on the risk of an accident, not a consumer’s bill paying record for other goods and services.”
Aside from the obvious point that credit does predict losses, a more fundamental question arises.
Norma Garcia makes this assertion as if she has some moral right to tell other people how to run their businesses.
If Ms. Garcia is insured and causes an auto accident, somebody else is risking capital to pay for the damages she causes. In return for a fee of a few hundred dollars a year, an insurer (i.e., people who own stock in the insurance company) will pay 25,000 or 50,000, or 100,000 or 500,000 to the person she injures.
Who on earth is she to tell other people what terms they should set for risking their capital? It’s not her money. It’s theirs!
If she is so knowledgeable about what insurance companies “ought” to do maybe she should start an insurance company. Then if she wishes to do so, she can base her rates on “the risk of an accident, not a consumer’s bill paying record for other goods and services.”
Ms. Garcia would not make a dime underwriting insurance because insurance cannot be underwritten on emotions and false premises. Socialist talk, but they can never practice that they preach. Instead, they live an emotional life of being angry and offended.
good point well taken. however, today, with auto insurance being mandatory,the free market, go anywhere, rationale cannot be used. insurance companies should, and must, seek all avenues to write profitable business and credit scoring is an accurate predictor of loss. it is a proven fact. however, the actuarial graph for credit scoring is exactly the same as using an insured driving record. in calif we also have CLUE, where all accidents are reported and filed. now, since we have two identical means of predicting loss why plow forward with the one that is so controversial? using credit scores can unveil a person who has a clean record but poor credit but is the risk worth the bad press? by everyones writings here, only 30 percent of the people are affected. insurance companies have a history of going against public opinion and having their head handed to them in a basket. in calif, the ins. industry threw good money after bad in a vain effort to get a failed proposition passed and the voters passed the worst possible proposition in retailation. credit scoring could be next. the PERCEPTION that it is discriminatory is enough to sink it and we really don’t need it as it duplicates a sound actuarial map, the persons driving record. if driving records are not complete, use the money to perfect it, don’t continue to heap more scorn on our industry. it is not worth it.
You are missing the point. It has been shown that race does have to do with credit scoring because typically the poorest are non-whites, meaning if you are using credit scoring and most of the poorest people have an ethnic background then you are guilty of being racist. Sorry but you all know EXACTLY what you are doing and in fact you are praying on the poorest to fatten up your CEO’s wallets and then you go to sleep with no conscious. Also like another poster pointed out….if it has to be a secret formula that NO one can no then it MUST be shady because only hidden things are shady and we all know that the insurance industry is a very shady business!
Let’s do some scientific research using two methods, A and B. Method A – take 50,000 auto collisions at random from 50 auto carriers and look at the data for the “at fault” driver. Lo and behold 60% have low credit scores. Therefore, low credit score means more likely to be involved in an at-fault collision. Method B – select 50,000 drivers at random and follow them for 10 years and gather all types of data about them including credit score and changes in the credit score. After 10 years look at the data. (To the best of my knowledge, this has not been done yet.) Now publish the results. Method A is “junk science” and can be used to prove eating mashed potatoes in preference to baked potatoes has a direct correlation to the potential to file an insurance claim. Method B is real bonafide research and is valid. When doing research, the researcher does not set out to prove any type of relationship. The data is collected and analyzed by competent statisticians and actuaries and the results speak for themselves. So where is the research that was done for 10 or 15 or 20 years by a competent entity that proves credit score has any relationship at all to the potential to file an insurance claim or be the cause of an “at fault” collision?
These famous “studies” are all Method A (backwards research looking for common threads to justify a currently held theory). Show me the real research interpreted by expert professional researchers into language I can understand (a cinch for real professionals) and I’ll reconsider that the use of credit scoring for anything but the lending of money is not baloney.
Yes, this is my real name (I am not a sock puppet or a coward). I welcome intelligent and thoughtful correspondence regarding this travesty. The emperor has no clothes!
An open market does not give a company the right to cheat, lie, and steal, from people. That is the big misconception that the insurance industry has!
Are you kidding!! You really are comparing your travel plans to people who HAVE to get insurance??? While you can pick and choose to go on a vacation there are many who can NOT pick or choose whether they want insurance or not. It is required on Auto and for anyone who buys a house…get real lady and come down to earth!
Credit does not have anything to do with one’s income, credit has everything to do with responsibility. Many rich people are slimey and rip off society (that is how they became some become rich). These folks are also efected by credit scoring. As for the poor having credit scores, they get huge tax breaks as well as subsidies. There is no law out there that says if you are poor, you don’t have to pay your bills! Enough is enough with this emotional cry baby nonsense. Credit is equal opportunity, it hits all races and all incomes. We cannot reward irresponsility and cost society billions due to ripping society off from not paying their bills and having more claims!
‘Also like another poster pointed out….if it has to be a secret formula that NO one can no then it MUST be shady because only hidden things are shady and we all know that the insurance industry is a very shady business’.
You know, not an agent, I am not privy to the recipe for Coca Cola. That’s because it is proprietary. ‘It is a secret formula that NO one can no (sic) then it must be shady.’ For the last freakin time, insurers are trying for a competitive edge when trying to entice policyholders to switch companies. Nobody calls my office asking if we use credit scores – they call asking HOW MUCH WILL IT COST? Guess what, not an agent and probably a money grubbing attorney, they don’t care if we use credit score if we are ten cents less per month than Farmers. Furthermore, the only way credit scoring made it through my State commissioner and legislative body is by
proving that the same amount of premium dollars are paid each year, but better drivers pay less and worse drivers pay more. It is a zero sum game in my state.
So who are you mad at? Insurers vying to offer the lowest rate to the lowest risk drivers? Or are you mad at my Insurance commissioner or state legislators? Are you mad at insureds who shop around for the lowest rate, credit scoring be damned? Or are you mad at your third grade teacher who was unable to teach you to spell and apply good grammar?
Gil, I would not call him an idiot as name calling does not solve anything. These people are emotional and perhaps uneducated about reality (perhaps they are part of this reality that they don’t want to admit).
He is entitled to his opinion. Thank God his opinion does not prevail in America as we would be a third world country if it did!
nothing. But people like not an agent would have us live in third world conditions because in his mind we should all dress alike, drive the same car and live in giant projects like the ones I saw in China last year. For him free enterprise, and any ingenuity or initiative that goes along with it, is BAD. What drives credit scoring? The same thing that causes people to shop at Walmart instead of the local hardware or grocery store. If it is five cents cheaper then the not an agents of the world will manage to that. Never mind that the local hardware store has sponsered little league for the last ten years or hosted rotary. The not an agents of the world complain about injustice but themselves have no loyalty
and at the end of the day offer nothing to their own or any other community.
you are so right. yours was the most intelligent, well thought out posting to date.
well done!!!!!
it is nice to see a sane posting on this subject. i deal with p/c, auto and home primarily, so i am referring primarily to auto ins. i believe that credit scoring is an acceptable u/w tool for all forms of insurance except auto. auto ins. in todays world is unique. it is forced on all of us regardless of need or want. we cannot choose to have auto ins. my point is that the tools given the industry now are adequate for what the industry needs to underwrite AUTO ins. all other forms of insurance should have all the tools at their disposal to judge the risk. you are right that not all claims are reported for w/c and businesses, etc so credit scoring is needed. in calif the tickets and accidents are available readily through DMV and CLUE. since the graphs for driving records and credit scores are identical why create the stress? compromise. this is what has made our country great in the past. it is a foreign concept today. these postings show that the narrow minded-my way or the hiway-mentality prevails everywhere. that is a shame.
You know, this all sounds familiar..who is most likely to file a claim..kinda like guilty without a trial? So we punish someone up front because they might file a claim in the future? hmmmmm……..
Not punishment, making appropriate charge for the exposure. Those less likely to file a claim get a discount. Learn a little about the actual business of insurance before making these comments.
You know dear, you might learn some manners. Why don’t you realize that it is ok not to have the same opinion as your little mind. That, by the way, is what made this country great, not just your incessant bleating. And just for your edification (big words scare you?) I probably have more degrees in insurance than you dream of.
I have been insulted for having an opinion on this site a lot. Get used to it. Your degrees mean nothing if you don’t learn anything about how our product works in the real world. That’s my opinion. If you find my stating my opinion insulting, that’s your problem.
Well, I can certainly understand why you have been insulted so much!
“Nobody is forced to buy a car.” Sorry but only a moron would make a ridiculous statement like that. I guess no one is forced into eating food either. If you want to argue intelligently then stop making outlandish statements! Free enterprise is a wonderful thing, however there are some companies (insurance being one of them) who need regulations because if un-regulated they would run ramped and cause economic disaster like they have tried to do with homeowners insurance and healthcare. As for it being an emotional issue, it is! There are over 80 million people in the USA that have no health care because they can’t afford it, and the foreclosure rates continue to rise as people are no longer able to afford to insure their homes. You have to be a very narcissistic person who only believes in self-preservation and prosperity for yourself! Continue to put you head in the sand and see what happens. People will only take so much of being cheated and gouged by an industry run by greed!
I have been insulted for having an opinion, just as you feel you have been. I don’t state my opinion on things I know little about. You should try the same policy. If you want to post on this site you better grow a thicker skin.
It is painfully obvious you don’t live in Florida; I do and have for over 40 years. In that time I have NEVER been affected by a hurricane. The insurance companies try to scare people into believing they are going to be blown away by the next hurricane. In fact Florida has had only two category 5 storms, once in 1928 Okeechobee Hurricane and Hurricane Andrew in 1992 (which by the way was deemed a Cat 5 AFTER the storm). The only economic ramification Florida is having is the un-affordable homeowners insurance. I have an employee who does NOT live on the water and owns a 960 sq foot home that is paying $8700 a year for homeowners insurance. That is almost DOUBLE what his mortgage is. Do you really think this is fair??
P.S. Trust me darling…I have more of an education then ANY agent, and most of your CEO’s! By the way do agents even have to go to college? Doesn’t appear to be a requirement. The only requirements I see is the need to be a greedy, self-serving, and the ability to make their CEO’s billions!!
And we allow these people to vote. No wonder the country is going downhill.
NOT AN AGENT, keep taxing the rich to feed the poor. You’re a regular Robin Hood. OR… get some personal responsibility and realize you make your own destiny and quit blaming your problems on others. People like you hate the free market since you are not smart enough to understand it. If you don’t like it, why don’t you move to a more socialist country? What’s that you say? America is better? Hmmm… I wonder why. Grow up.
WOW, I guess you believe only the rich and powerful should vote! Get a life!
As for personal responsibility, you all should talk! I don’t believe I have EVER made any statement that “I” am having problems. What I HAVE said is the insurance industry is FULL of problems and is a greed-based business. I do not hate the free market but I do hate people/companies that take advantage of people. That is NOT what the “free market” is about but it is what the insurance industry is turning it into. There are many well run companies that make a great profit each year and they don’t do it my lying, and cheating people out of their hard earned money. Keep squeezing the little guy and see what will happen. You empire will fall….it is in the history books! History always repeats itself, so enjoy you big fat paychecks that were made off the backs of the poor and I will sit back and watch you all fall!
Unbelievable. Why do you keep commenting on a subject you obviously have no knowledge of dispite your high opinion of yourself? This is a complicated business because of all of the laws and legal decisions over the past 150 years and more. It’s way to complicated for someone like yourself who gives all appearance of not understanding how a business of any kind actually works. As another poster said, grow up. I am also continually amazed at the hate a lot of people in this country have for anyone who is paid more than what they think is ok. If someone makes a lot of money, according to you they must be cheating someone. Grow up.
Just so you know, not all Agents are as idiotic as some on this blog appear! I have been on both sides of the industry and must admit there are idiots on both sides….I am beginning to think it’s all those “white anglo-saxon men” that think they are entitled to dream up all these schemes like credit scoring. Kinda like their way of getting back since they can no longer discriminate in other ways. I love the part about “they have a higher likelihood of filing a future claim”, so lets charge them now in case they actually do! Let’s not wait till they have a claim and then sur-charge them, we might never get out money back!..oh oh wait a minute, what was the definition of insurance?
How can you argue with an individual as poorly informed and hateful as this one? You have problems all right, but they are more a lack of comprehension of anything to do with the insurance business. Go rant against some other business you might understand better, I just can’t think of one that wants to give their product away at a loss. Sorry.
I never said “only the rich and powerful” should vote. However, I would be happy to have a threshold for IQ or some other measurement of intelligence as a qualifier.
You see, some people are incapable of making intelligent decisions. And we jeopardize the future of the country under the guise of “democracy.”
People like you want to take money from the wealthy. You are happy they already pay for the majority of the federal budget. But you still want more more more. All that results is a continuing decrease in the incentives to make money. And a basic understanding of economics will tell you why that is not good for ANYONE.
It’s time the so-called “poor” start thanking the rich for their ingenuity and making this country the wealthiest country in the world. Greed is good. The wealth of this nation is based on greed and work ethic. If you don’t like it, leave.
A LOSS!!!!! Are you kidding!!!!!!
You make me laugh!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAH
A Loss….HAHAHAHAHAHA
MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY….a loss..hahahahahahah
Go try and blow smoke up someone elses *SS!
Just curious, do you purchase insurance presently? Obviously you have a very low opinion of the industry but do you believe in the concept of insurance? And one other question, since you seem to feel this industry (I assume from top to bottom) is rife with fat cat greedy SOBs; can you please tell me whom I should contact so I can be one too? Somehow I missed the boat…
Just for your education, I’m not an agent, I’m a home office person who happens to be one of those white anglo-saxon men you feel free to insult. See, it’s easy to insult someone. Now who is the bad person. Credit scoring is not a scheme to cheat the poor or disadvataged. If you want to buy the line of the insurance company haters on this without actually looking at the facts, that’s your privilage. Just don’t demand to be respected for that opinion.
GREED IS GOOD? Boy do I feel sorry for you. I take back everything I was thinking of you. You are a sad sad person. I am willing to bet you don’t believe in God because if you did you will remember this passage.
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24)
As for using someone’s IQ for voting requirements I am sure you would not meet the requirement yourself because you are a simple minded person who has NO moral compass or compassion.
Furthermore, let me point something else out to you flower children.
There are several tenants that are essential for a country to become wealthy like the honoring of contracts, private property, and what do you know, insurance.
Look at the countries that don’t have established insurance industries and compare them to the countries that do have insurance. YOU HAVE A CHOICE to move to one of those countries. Now why don’t you? Oh that’s right, because those countries are generally crap holes. This is not some magical coincidence.
Wow, your posts are getting dumber each time. All of the loss information for Florida property insurance is public information available through the insurance departement. Oh, they are probably in on the conspiracy to cheat you. Sorry.
Wow, quoting a bible verse, that’s cute.
Would you please explain why greed is bad in a logical fashion?
I do purchase insurance. I have life insurance, homeowners insurance, auto insurance, jewelry insurance, health insurance, and dental insurance. I think that’s all of them. I do believe in the concept of insurance and believe it was started as a means to help people when something un-expected happened. What has become of insurance is the increases outweigh the advantage of insurance in many cases. The insurance industry spends millions of dollars trying to find out ways not to pay on claims, or not cover so many things. As an example I have been on a prescription medication for the past 8 years, and two months ago my health insurance decided not to cover that medication anymore….why? Now I have to try several other medications to see if I can get one that works as well as what I have been taking for 8 years. When it comes to health insurance it has become the insurance industry acting as doctors and making medical decisions and overriding doctors orders. It is out of control.
I don’t hate all agents, just the obnoxious ones posting on this site. Actually I have a very good friend who is an agent for State Farm and even she believes her industry is greedy.
I believe the Bible is the most logical explanation necessary and if you don’t I feel sorry for you.
I believe you can explain a lot with the Bible, but you will need to do so in order for others to understand. Insurance is actually a very biblical concept of helping others. However, people on both sides (policy holders and the insurance companies) are only human and are sinful by nature and therefore both sides try to cheat both sides. You don’t blame policyholders for not trying to be cheated, so don’t blame the industry for doing the same thing.
As you say, insurance could be thought of as mandatory, however, there are many choices as to how and where you can buy your insurance. It is not a monopoly, it is not a utility company, and therefore the market is self-regulating through consumers’ choices.
As to the verse you quoted, having material wealth comes with a great deal of responsibility. It takes a certain kind of person to handle that responsibility. How often have you heard of someone winning the lottery and then a couple years later they file for bankruptcy or have nothing left. Wealthy people are faced with more material temptation, and “false gods,” and therefore it is harder for them to follow God, according to the context of the verse.
Now, wealthy people may have more resources to use to rip people off, but are no more or less sinful (or greedy) than the next person. So if you talk about greed as a sin, then everyone is guilty. And if you think it should be legislated against, than join an Islamic country. Seperation of church and state is mandatory for a free society.
You cannot deny the truth that the existence of the US insurance industry has made everyone in this country better off. And a quick study will show that without investment income, many companies have lost money OVER TIME. You cannot take one year of healthy profits as evidence for the industry being “greedy.” In fact, when the industry loses money, are people ranting and raving about how “giving” and “kind” the industry was to give up their capital? No, of course not, that would not fit the liberal’s agenda of telling everyone how to live their life.
At one point in time insurance was a concept of helping others but it has turned into a race between companies to see who can be the biggest and the richest. It has gone way off track of helping people. I look at insurance as a necessary evil. I must have iton my auto and my home and here in Florida there is no fee market to shop for insurance is you can find someone writing then you go with them. There are very few writing policies in Florida that is why Citizens insurance has grown so big in this state.
You hit the nail right on the head when you said with wealth comes great responsibility. It is the responsibility of the wealthy to help those who are less fortunate then they are. That is the right thing to do, whether you do it because of your faith, your conscious, or you moral compass. I make a good deal of money but will never be “rich” because I feel it is my responsibility to help those who do not have what I do. As for the separation of state and church may I remind you that this country was founded on Christian beliefs and God.
As for sinners, yes we all are sinners in one aspect or another but there is a difference between trying to be good and do the right thing and those who just don’t care and continue to sin in the name of big business and fat paychecks.
I don’t really agree that the insurance industry has made everyone better off. I actually believe that it hasn’t and again has become a necessary evil. The insurance industry has created the increase in lawyers, lawsuits, fraud, and of course greed. I don’t see that as being good.
I am by no means a socialist however I do believe in good and evil and right and wrong. If the insurance industry would be brought back to what it was meant to do then I would back it 100% but I don’t see that happening so I will push for tougher laws and regulations to keep them in check.
I know how you make your living. You invented class envy. You have no knowledge of the history of insurance or how the product works. You buy a couple of policies and think you are some kind of expert. You advertise your ignorance every time you post your under thought and over worded posts.
LOOK IN THE MIRROR MR. NOBODY
Heck, I can keep this up all day. You must be just about out of stupid pills. Sorry for the line of insults in this posting, but I am so sick of self-appointed experts telling all of us how evil and greedy our business is. We are a legal and moral business entitled to a profit. If that’s your definition of greedy too bad. I like what I do and find that what I do helps a lot of people. Other people like NOT AN AGENT bring out the worst in me due to their complete lack of thought. Maybe this poster should next go on to the banking, oil, investment and other greedy industries and tell them how greedy and immoral they are without any knowledge of what they do or why they do it.
Well I do not think we will come to agreement on many topics. I understand this country was founded on Christian beliefs and God. Trust me, I’d love to make Islam illegal. But it just cannot be done. Power corrupts, remember the Catholic church’s control in Europe, or the islamic control in muslim countries. It would happen again. It just cannot be done as good as it sounds.
I have personally met dozens of CEO’s for insurance companies and work with others who have done the same. I know you won’t believe me, but the majority of people are not as you say. They are just like everyone else, only they have a special gift of leadership and the intelligence to back it up. I myself know that I am not one of these people since that is not in my capacity, but I do not insult them because of it.
I urge you to contemplate this question: “What makes a nation wealthy?” or another way to ask it, “What increases a nations wealth?”
It is a question that many people never ask themselves. You yourself admitted to having a financially healthy life. Who has created these opportunities for you.
I am getting wordy and will have to continue in another post…
Take Bill Gates for example. He is undoubtedly wealthy. However, Microsoft still charges a lot of money (in my opinion) for Microsoft Office. I could get on a soapbox about how they are gouging consumers, how all consumers should have “equal rights” to obtain it (i.e. the rich pay more and the poor pay less), etc etc, your typical taking money from the rich to give to the poor agenda (which is nothing more than steeling may I remind you). However, instead of complaining about Microsoft, I am thankful for what they have done for our country and humanity. I can connect with people all over the country. We in fact would probably not be having this conversation if it wasn’t for them.
Insurance still exists to help the less-fortunate. However, the definition of “less-fortunate” is not the typical definition. It is those that are less fortunate and have an accident, or have unexpected things happen to them, whether rich or poor.
Here is some of what Bill Gates has done with his wealth. Can you provide anything that your CEO’s have done that would even compare a teeny tiny bit. I think not.
$1 billion over 20 years to establish the Gates Millennium Scholarship Program, which will support promising minority students through college and some kinds of graduate school.
$750 million over five years to the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization, which includes the World Health Organization, the Rockefeller Foundation, Unicef, pharmaceutical companies and the World Bank.
$350 million over three years to teachers, administrators, school districts and schools to improve America’s K-12 education, starting in Washington State.
$200 million to the Gates Library Program, which is wiring public libraries in America’s poorest communities in an effort to close the “digital divide.”
$100 million to the Gates Children’s Vaccine Program, which will accelerate delivery of lifesaving vaccines to children in the poorest countries of the world.
$50 million to the Maternal Mortality Reduction Program, run by the Columbia University School of Public Health.
$50 million to the Malaria Vaccine Initiative, to conduct research on promising candidates for a malaria vaccine.
$50 million to an international group called the Alliance for the Prevention of Cervical Cancer.
$50 million to a fund for global polio eradication, led by the World Health Organization, Unicef, Rotary International and the U.N. Foundation.
$40 million to the International Vaccine Institute, a research program based in Seoul, South Korea.
$28 million to Unicef for the elimination of maternal and neonatal tetanus.
$25 million to the Sequella Global Tuberculosis Foundation.
$25 million to the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative, which is creating coalitions of research scientists, pharmaceutical companies and governments in developing countries to look for a safe, effective, widely accessible vaccine against AIDS
Nicely put Come on. I have to apologize for taking the low road on this line when I see the high road you are taking. Unfortunately, I don’t believe either method is getting through to this poster. I will set my goal of posting more thoughtful responses in the future.
Thanks for the kind words Nobody. We have clashed in the past but glad we can come together on this one. Anyway, I am bored with the high road, so if you want to take over that would be great. I’m going to take the low road for awhile, starting now.
NOT AN AGENT: looks like Bill Gates does not believe in survival of the fitest. He doesn’t do these things because he is some kind-hearted person, he does this to avoid paying millions more in taxes (i.e. legal THEFT) and for good publicity. Glad to see he has outsmarted you as that would fit the stereotype.
If I had lots of time to waste I could come up with charitable gifts for all sorts of CEO’s. It’s pretty common.
I have heard many insults about Bill Gates and Microsoft over the years. I have heard them referred to as the evil empire and seen accusations of all sorts of illegal acts. Every industry or business has good and bad people. Money doesn’t make you bad or good. How much research have you done on the greedy CEO’s in the insurance industry to see how they use their money? If you had, you would see some good and some bad. Making money doesn’t make you evil. You are or aren’t. I know a lot of people in our industry and few actually get rich. This is not the place to go to get lots of money. Few people have made a lot of money and my experience has been that those who have made it deserve it. I’m sure not all do, but I don’t personally know any who don’t.
not an agent: do you even know anyone in teh industry?
I don’t recall having grappled with you on the vital issues in the past. All I ask from any poster is that they stop villifying all insurance companies and personnel as evil automotons. I ask that they learn more about us than the anti-insurance industry teaches them through sound bites and half-truths. Your post was nicely worded and thoughtful. Our buddy NOT AN AGENT has no knowledge or thought behind his or her posts, just an intense hate of our industry. Class envy may be the great problem that will curse this country to future mediocrity. We certainly seem headed in that direction.
Please…survival of the fittest? Even with all his charitable contributions he has plenty of money to survive. It is not he who dies with the most amount of money goes to heaven. I do agree that many of the wealthy give to charities to avoid taxes but trust me the poor that benefit from these charities doesn’t care if it saved the guy some money in taxes but that he DID something other then spend like there is no tomorrow with all his wealth. Remember Bill Gates was YOUR pick.
The reason you don’t have time to find charitable gifts of your CEO’s because they’re probably aren’t any.
Nobody: I couldn’t agree with you more!
NOT AN AGENT: Well, personally it is time for me to get back to my GREEDY job in my GREEDY industry and GREEDILY make myself money without having it benefit anyone but MYSELF. I really don’t have anything more to say to you at this point except one of my favorite quotes:
“If you’re not a liberal by the time your 18, you don’t have a heart. If your not a conservative by the time you’re 40, you don’t have a brain.”
its amazing how easily simple minds are distracted. it takes more effort to redirect my three year old grandson than it took to redirect you from the subject at hand. this was a discussion about credit scoring. i would direct you and anyone interested in this subject to read DarNovak post on 7/25/07 at 5;46PM. that is the definitive statement on the subject at hand. the rest is mindless rantings by people with axes to gring.
Maybe your grandson could teach you how to use the Shift key to capitalize letters.
I apologize for caring about the future of this country.
thing – that there are those who hate us and anything to do with the service we thankfully provide. If it weren’t for insurance, much of what takes place in America would not happen. Goods and services would not be transacted, projects would never happen, international trade would be handcuffed.
Boneheads like not an agent hate insurance and care not about pricing or methods or for that matter the centuries old history of insurance which, by the way, facilitated world exploration in the middle ages. Not an agent must have had a bad claim on a stolen car radio and didnt like ACV instead of replacement cost. But not an agent can enjoy a bright future while living in Florida and experiencing Citizens Insurance. The utopia that she envisions by removing greedy Mutual (policyholder owned for the uneducated Not an agent) and stock held
(thats when companies answer to stockholders Not an agent, like in your mutual fund) will be borne when she pays twice what she should with her long awaited Citizens policy. The premium is lower you bleat, Not an agent? Sorry, even in your addled mind there is not something for nothing. Ignore history and common sense, lady. The rest of us know the real story.
FYI Gill, I have NEVER had a claim, not even a traffic ticket or accident! Nothing stolen, no hurricanes, medical disaster, nothing! You all think that because I see your business/industry as a greedy self-serving corrupt business that I must have had a bad experience but that is not true. I just see it for what it is. I also do not have Citizens Insurance although I know many who do and in many circumstances is a better deal then some private companies.
It is obvious you all answer to your stockholders…you tell them how much money you all are raking in and then go in front of our insurance commissioner and tell them how much money you are loosing. HMMMMM what’s up with that?
You just keep ignoring history and we will see who wins in the end!
A car is not a necessity. If you live in an area where there is public transportation you don’t have to have a car. I live in Chicago and have made the decision not to have a car because the costs are too high, including insurance. Obviously, a car and food cannot be compared to one another. It’s like comparing autos to oranges…
This business is all about history, which you are totally ignorant of. Insurance is highly regulated in every state. We send every detail of everything we do to the state insurance departments per the law. Most insurance regulators seem to think of themselves as consumer advocates, especially in Florida. That’s why I recommend that you find out what you can from them. Of course, if you are one who thinks that the government is not to be trusted either, I don’t know what to tell you. We file rates, rules, forms procedures and if we don’t follow them, the insurance departments fine us. I can’t think of any other industry that is more heavily regulated. Again, you need to acutally do a little research on the subject other than listening to insurance company haters. This business has a long and distingushed history. I know you think otherwise, but you are way off in your thinking.
Some of us don’t live in a city or have public transportation. I have never been on a subway (we don’t have them here) and we do not have public busing. Maybe if we did i could DECIDE not to have a car but where I live it IS a necessity.
Nobody: slight correction to the last sentence of your post. It should say “feel” and not “think.”
then move somewhere there is public transportation. Everyone has options, but they aren’t always willing to see them. Ride your bike or a scooter. You don’t have to have insurance on those. Live closer to work where you can walk. To you a car is a situational necessity, not an absolute necessity like food.
You make good points concerned, but what you might have in California, other states may not have. Further, in lines like WC where the NCCI is supposed to receive all claims, not all insureds get their claims reported correctly or accurately and some reporting carriers fail to submit unit stat cards at all. How many ex mods are jsut plain wrong? Trust me, if I as an underwriter could get credible loss information without having it be filtered by an agent or insured, then my job would be far easier. Its exactly for that reason that carriers can’t trust that the information they get is valid and accurate that another tool is needed to accurately price the business.
I don’t think that the backlash you refer to is all that real. Prop 103 was stirred by a demogogue who promised everyone a free lunch. The industry responded by doing damage control in the form of its own props, but didn’t offer what Harvey could. People took the bait. I know as I was in So Cal at the time.
I would still think that as long as scoring has statistical credibility, it should be used as a valid tool for pricing and risk acceptibility.
I know we have an idiot in the house.
if you are retarded you mean less to the Insuance if you have little money you have to pay more ? Do not have a retarded child who is harmed in a car because the way they will score your child will make you cry……. you have to be in the box insurance puts- you in. And get this you pay for this.
Am I the only one who can’t understand a bit of this posting? I take it that there is some implied complaint about insurance scoring, but what it is is beyond my comprehension. Whoever you are, put this in English so we can understand your complaint.
America is who we are! If credit scoring in insurance bothers you, than I am sure there are a ton of things that bother you. The person who has a bigger home across the street bothers you. The guy who makes 20k more a year than you do bothers you. The fact that everyone is not equal bothers you! Thank God those things don’t bother, I just try to do things right and be the best that I can be. People who have class envy are insecure on who they are. If you are tired of being who you are, pay your bills on time, don’t spend a dime more than you can afford, do things in your life that will allow you to have a higher paying job and feel great about yourself. Who wants to live a life of complaining and envy, hell not me!
Nobody Important who keeps a eye on the adjusters. Who hands out the awards at the end of the year — to the ones who save the company the most money?
Give me a min of your time I can about people. The big house the great car all the money in this world does not make you something. Caring about what is wrong and to wakeup—– class is not in your pocket book. My job on this plant is to leave it better ,not see how much stuff I can get that my friend is not how you win at life.
Seriously, maybe you should move out of your PLANT and take some English classes. Are you a gnome [hint: silent “g”]?
Comment:
It figures that Not an Agent would be from Florida. This is the state that feels that it can ignore reality and force rates down and insurance companies out to make their lives more affordable. Anyone in Florida with any knowledge of reality knows that the next hurricane in that poorly managed state will have incredible economic ramifications. These are far too complicated to explain to the run of low IQ insurance company haters swarming over this site lately. I’m sorry if reality is too . tHINK OF ALL THE MONEY WASTED GO BACK READ ALL HISTORY OF THE FRAUD. THAN GIVE A SCORING OF THAT. THIS FRAUD IS BY THE INSURANCE COPANYS .FOR ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN FIGHTING TO NOT GIVE UP WE NEED TO MAKE THINGS BETTER IHAVE GRANDBABYS
Mr. Unnamed Uneducated Poster:
¿Es usted un mexicano? ¿PodrÃa usted aprender por favor nuestra lengua antes de usted tentativa de hacer acusaciones falsas hacia nosotros y nuestra herencia? Usted debe agradecernos que usted puede beber nuestra agua sin pooping su tripa hacia fuera.
Don’t be so mean. Silent g… ouch!
(Actually I needed the laugh, thanks)
Melanies in the house.
Hey! I did my fair share of serious posts. It’s almost time to leave for the day so might as well have some fun. At least you can understand what my posts are saying!
Comment:
Let’s say credit scoring is eliminated from insurance pricing. What’s next? mAY BE WE COULD HAVE PEOPLE REALLY KEEP A EYE ON THE INSURANCE- COPAMPAYS SHOULD NOT BE AFAIRD OF MAKING A JOB OF IT KIND OF LIKE THEY KNOW WE CAN FIND OUT ALL KINDS OF STUFF LIKE READING COURT PAPERS LIKE 800 PLUS NEWS PAPERS THINK ABOUT IT IF YOU HAVE THE TIME WHY NOT KEEP YOUR EYES! OPEN! READING NEWS FROM ALL OVER THANK GOD FOR THE WEB WE CAN ALL POLICE THINGS TO HELP CHANGE THINGS I KNOW I CAN NOT SPELL SO WHAT I CAN READ AND I CAN CARE MY BE THAT IS WAY GOD HAS PLACE ME RIGHT HEAR OR MAYBE WE ALL SHOULD CARE ABOUT EACH OTHER OR MAYBE NOT I WOULD LIKE THIS GREAT COUNTY TO STAY GREAT
Leaving with a bad credit score and a mountain of debt is not going to make this country better, you would leave free loading off everyone else. Look at Bill Gates, what he created, he will leave having left one of the best inventions of all time and such convenience to our lives. What have you left besides internet surfing all day?
Read my lips:
CARING does not PAY for LOSSES. Emotions are great, but they do not accomplish anything.
Are you a mexican or a mexi-can’t?
Correct, if we cared too much and did not use our brains, we wouldn’t have the economic force to provide people with food and basic needs. Communism and socialism fails everywhere these things are tried, and when we have greedy capitalism, then every eats and not only that, but they eat good!
concerned agent,
If DMV reports and the CLUE database were sufficient, insurer’s wouldn’t be using the credit-based scores. The fact that so many insurers use the credit information suggests (and the numbers I work with daily agree) that credit provides predictive power for losses over and above what the driving history can show.
The simple fact is, the vast majority of drivers have a clean record. Driving history does not provide as much segmentation as people think.
Sorry, but I learned that characterizing one class of people as the poorest based on skin color and stereoptyping another group based on their occupation is real discrimination. Think about your own stereotypes please before you call anyone that articulates a viewpoint different then yours racist.
this coming from the biggest racist, bigot and xenophobe on this site. the irony is too much.