We’re fully aware that Congressmen and Senators get free medical coverage for the rest of their lives…and will continue to; regardless of this bill… and so, we understand that too many won’t vote the issue…Every decision, every lobby, every vote is directed at “what will keep me in office.” We have over compensated our civil servants.
Your comments are right on, Buckeye. This reform bill has little to do with fixing health care, it’s a power grab by self-serving politicians. Americans are so shockingly ignorant of health care issues that they are allowing unscrupulous and ill-informed politicians to take full advantage of them in advancing their own political self-interest at the expense of taxpayers and future generations. It’s fascism with a socialist face. The same M.O. used by Adolph Hitler. Those who don’t learn from history are destined to repeat it. This is sadly a holocaust for middle class taxpayers and free market enterprise. Where is Milton Friedman when we need him?
They hear you but just don’t care. Remember the heated town hall meetings — one dope senator said his town hall meeting was representative of a minority of the public and that he thinks the majority want this.
OPEN YOUR EARS — NOBODY WANTS THIS.
I believe they are referring to the vast majority of the citizens of the United States. Is that specific enough? Unfortunately, this same majority was so upset with the prior occupants in Washington they voted for anybody but the prior occupants rather than actually voting real issues. That has given us idiots in charge in Congress and and empty suit in the White House. Any further questions younin?
THE “MIDDLE CLASS” OF AMERICA DOES NOT WANT THIS!!!! THE SENATE AND HOUSE DO NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE UNDER THIS BILL…. THEY AND THE PRESIDENT WILL HAVE BETTER COVERAGE AND YOU AND I—THE MIDDLE CLASS—CONTINUE PAY FOR IT!!!
ONLY SOLUTION IS TO VOTE THESE IDIOTS OUT IN 2010 AND THE PREZ IN 3 YEARS!!!!!!!
The insurance companies will be held accountable; they will hope for a public option as noted by Pelosi. Sounds like a threat. They have no desire to help the uninsured, only their personal agendas. What a bunch of spoiled bratty whiny idiots. Get rid of the whole bunch!
Unfortunately, voting them out in November will be too late with the damage already done. How do we change the course of the future of this money grabbing, demoralizing bill now?
Call your congressmen and tell them you do not want this bill! Also, tell them that if the bill is passed then they-meaning congress- should suffer with it like the rest of us!!
Millions of “pink slips: have been sent to Congress declaring to vote them out if they pass a health care bill! Stand firm and call your elected reps!!!!!
I don’t know about your representatives, but all our contacts with them is answered by a form letter; I know their aides/pages (whatever they are) toss out the negative ones and send the form letter out.
I’ve tried calling Congressmen and Senators. Most of the time you get “This voice mailbox is full. Thank you for calling.” If you do get to leave a message, you get absolutely no response. Plus, my representatives in Arizona (Shadegg, Kyl, McCain) are mostly in the group that are against this bill, so I’m “preaching to the choir” with them. If I try to call other Congressmen and Senators, they won’t pay attention to me because I’m not from their district/state. Think Al Franken or Nancy Pelosi or Barney Frank or any of the others will listen to someone from out of their state?
WE don’t want this bill. We DON’T want this bill. We don’t WANT this bill. We don’t want THIS bill. We don’t want this BILL. WE DON’T WANT THIS BILL.
Read our email (LIPS) WE DO NOT WANT THIS BILL AS IT IS CURRENTLY PROPOSED, ALL and I MEAN ALL NEED TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO READ THE BILL, AND GO FROM THERE. NOW: how many of these Senators, Congress folks, etc will change “their insurance cov’g” to parallel what the common folk have or don’t have I suspect – let them go on SS Benefits when they retire, listen to the screaming & knashing of teeth! GIVE ME BACK MY AMERICA PLEASE!
There is a better way to to do health care in this country than what has been passed but, majority of the people will still say “it’s too much government” and our government is just to inept from executing good measures to improve our health care system.
We could have our cost to GDP down to less than 10% – 11% and our admin cost down around 8% or so. Low insurance premiums that everyone could afford, no policy rescinding, no exclusions fro pre-exisiting conditions and if you loose your employment, you don’t loose your coverage.
Where do you get “vast majority”? Please cite your sources. Most of the polls I’ve seen are in the 48-52% oppose range.
The vast majority of americans want some kind of health care reform. The Democrats are offering something (bloated though it may be). The Republicans are offering “No”. If I walked around my company telling all my coworkers I disagree with them all the time, and offering no alternative suggestions, . . . well, I’d be fired. The Republicans are doing nothing (except saying NO) and getting paid handsomely for it. It’s time to hold our politicians accountable.
The Republicans HAVE been offering alternatives, and NOBODY IS COVERING IT. Specifically, to name one, and I know this because I live here, and heard him discuss it, John Shadegg has proposed a bill, and a darn good one, but the MSM never covers it. It is totally false to claim that the Republicans are offering nothing. Get your facts straight.
Does anyone see anything wrong with excluding the Republicans from the compromise bill? Are all of us supposed to be represented by our politicians? This process is a way for the democrats to cram the bill down America’s throat, and then the democrats can proclaim that they solved the health care problem. I hope everyone sees that the democrats are forgoing a Democracy by shutting out half of America in this issue.
The second big problem is that their bill doesn’t address the cost of healthcare; it addresses the cost of health insurance! If they were to figure out how to reduce the cost of healthcare, insurance costs would decrease as well! One solution is to make the patients (us) responsible to pay our medical bills and get reimbursed by the insurance carriers. Once we start paying and seeing the costs involved, we will start comparison shopping, which would create competition amongst the providers, and lower costs.
Charley you make some good points. However another big issue that is widely misstated and just accepted is the fact that 10% of the population without insurance creates major increases in the insurance costs of 85% of the population. It does not make sense. These non-insured, including the 20 somethings that are indestructable, do not go to the doctor every year and probably not every other year. I’m old, get annual physicals and spend as little time as possible at the doctor. Maybe others are not as fortunate, but the additional is nominal in the big picture of $2.5 trillion.
To reiterate, the 30 mil without ins. do not drive signicant increases in costs to the other 285 mil with insurance. That said, lets fix the root cause of the issues as outlined by several republicans and stop this socialism before its too late.
Don’t regurgitate liberal talking points youngin. This is not health care reform. It’s a government takeover. Raw power play. If you think Republicans have not tried to work on this you haven’t been paying attention or are just another liberal troll.
The Repubs ARE offering ideas, but the Dems won’t listen. The Repubs are offering the idea of tort reform, let health companies compete across state lines. The repubs are treating the CAUSE of the problem (high health insurance rates) whereas the dems are treating the symptoms. The Repubs are not the “party of no” ad the Dems would have you believe. People don’t want to hear that they have been irresponible, they just want to hear what you can give them.
That’s a good point. The democrats are so concerned about the uninsureds and they want to get them free coverage. However, face the facts: the uninsureds got free coverage anyway. Something goes awry with their health, they go to the emergency room, and the taxpayers pay for it through the Federal subsidies given to hospitals. Under this democrat plan, it will raise the cost because now those uninsureds will take the free coverage AND many currently insureds will drop coveage and get on the free plans to. Why pay if you qualify for free coverage?
JOHN, RIGHT ON!!!! THE ESTIMATED MILLIONS THAT DO NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE ARE MOSTLY ILLEGAL ALIENS WHO GO TO ER’S AND DO NOT PAY A PENNY TOWARD THE COST OF THEIR TRATMENT SINCE THEY ARE ILLEGAL. THEY ALSO THEN GO TO THE GOVERNMENT FUNDED(SUPPLEMENTED BY THE GOVT) TO GET THEIR PRESCRIPTIONS FOR FREE!! ALSO, THEY CAN GET FREE HOUSING, DENTAL, SSI, FOOD STAMPS, AND WELFARE(SOCIAL SECURITY) UP TO $1200 A MONTH. WHEREAS, LITTLE OLD LADIES WHO WORKED FOR 40 YEARS, HAVE TO GET BY ON LOW SOCIAL SECURITY AMOUNS–SOME I KNOW AT $750-$1000) A MONTH! WHEN ILLEGALS GET MORE AFTER NOT PAYING ANYTHING INTO THE SYSTEM AND LOWER-PAYING JOBS THAT OLDER PEOPLE HAD FOR 40 YEARS GET SUCH A SMALL AMOUNT, IT IS CRIMINAL!!!!!!
Way to go, Yougin’. It is nice to see someone who pays attention. Want to know the largest government expansion of healthcare coverage since Medicare? Look up the Prescription Drug addition to Medicare passed by the combination Bush administration and the Republicans in the Senate/Congress a few years ago. It is funded entirely by deficit spending. It is a $1.2 billion (and growing) nighmare that is extremely complicated, and offers no chance for the government to use their size and purchasing power to negotiate better drug prices. So, the drug companies get to charge what they want. No cost controls!! It has dealt serious injury to Medicare and the deficit. The Bush administration threatened to fire the chief actuary for Medicare when he threatened to reveal the real projected costs prior to the bill’s passing. The Republican controlled Senate kept the voting period open for three hours longer than usual and somehow CSPAN was blacked out during the debate. It was a total suck-up to the elderly voting block and nothing else. Some arguments in this post are identical to the arguments against Medicare in the 60s and Social Security in the 30s. How many of you so called “Patriots” will give up your SS and Medicare benifits based on your moronic principles?
Who wants this bill to pass? Maybe the 45,ooo or so people who die every year due to lack of access to quality care. Many Americans do want this in a big way. I want it and I have great benefits. Although it lacks a public option (and therefore cost control) just to make Joe Lieberman and his private health insurer lobyist wife happy, it is a start. Republicans have been dragged kicking and screaming throughout this process and STILL have not offered an alternative other than NO. Remember that Congressman and Senators get free medical care for the rest of their lives! How many of you brain-dead sycophants know that?
Yeah, the Former Congressman Bill Tauzin, R-La., who spear headed the bill through the House, retired soon after and took a $2 million a year job as president PHARMA, the main industry lobbying group.
Unfortunately, debating the finer points of this bill falls into the “day late and dollar short” category.
This has nothing to do with health care or health insurance. It is ALL ABOUT government control….plain and simple.
Those of us who saw Obama and the liberals in Congress for what they are and will always be were screaming from the rooftops during the last election. Unfortunately, the MSM was in the tank and we have way too many mindless dolts running to the voting booth to pull the lever for Democrats.
The Democrats have certainly been very effective at taking full advantage of a very friendly press and an extremely uninformed electorate. The problem with liberal policy, though, is the rest of us have to live under the oppressive policies implemented by liberals.
One of the more sickening elements o this whole matter, though, is the Republican Party blew it big time. They almost completely abandoned conservatism and lost both Congress and the White House in a two year span. I realize they are swimming upstream due to the liberal MSM, but conservatism speaks for itself and can withstand a corrupt media. Those of us old enough and honest enough to remember the success of Ronald Wilson Reagan understand it can be done.
So, what happens after Obama has left and some of the Democratic seats in the house and senate are replaced? How would any of this benefit them after they are gone? I mean, if it benefits them now, how does it benefite them in the future.
There is a type of surgery that has been performed for about 20 years. That surgery now costs 1/10th or less than it did when first performed, and the quality is 5 times as good.
What’s that surgery – Lasik eye surgery – why – there is no third party payment involved. We need to act as consumers, not as people walking around with a credit card where someone else gets the bill.
Love the reference, Outraged and Disgusted, to Milton Friedman. Unfortunately, there are probably tens of millions of people (i.e. uninformed voters) who have never even heard of Milton Friedman let alone understand his amazing economic mind.
His absolute torching of Phil Donahue, who during an interview of Dr. Friedman was espousing the “wonders” of socialism while tearing into capitalism, should be a requirement for all students and anyone preparing to walk into a voting booth.
The current political reality, and one that is taken complete advantage of by unscrupulous politicians, results in an attempt to make everyone feel guilty for not caring about our fellow man and those less fortunate than us. Friedman hit this very hard in his very measured, but hard hitting remarks to Donahue.
Capitalism is the essence of compassion for others in that it provides ample opportunity for a free people to choose their own path in life and succeed as they see fit. Socialism, progressivism, redistribution of wealth policies, etc. are the exact opposite in that they punish success and rely on central planning (i.e. government / elitist control) to direct our lives.
In our current political environment, though, it is virtually impossible to consider oneself a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. Why? Because compassion and caring is defined by many as how much we pay in taxes and our government “invests” in social programs that are already proven failures or will undoubtedly fail. If you care, then you will support any and all government spending supposedly aimed at righting social wrongs and helping others. If we don’t want to pay more taxes or question government spending, then we are deemed evil or uncompassionate.
There are days it seems as if I woke up in a parallel universe. Will we ever get back to a point at which rugged individualism and self-reliance, personal and cultural qualities that made our country great, are not cast in a negative light? I would like to think so, but it will not happen without a great deal of change – cultural, individual and political.
Right, Lasik is a completely elective procedure. It is not needed as a life saver and the fact that the cost has come down via competition has nothing to do with someone who cannot gain access to a life saving procedure. A lot of people die or go broke (not just illegal aliens)searching for access to good medical care. Lasik is not and never was covered by medical insurance. I am not sure what your point is. Are you saying that acting as a consumer on life saving tripple bypass surgery is the right way to go? It is impossible for that type of procedure to be in the budget of most of the population. Do you really believe getting rid of the 3rd party would make someting like that affordable? You must be really young and healthy or just very light in life experiences.
David,
Obviously when you are in an emergency situation you cannot shop around, but for tests you can. For instance, an MRI can cost $1,000 and it can cost $10,000 depending on where you go. Routine blood and urine tests, if you had to pay and get reimbursed from medical insurance, would be shopped around. Also, you as a patient might start questioning why a doctor is ordering so many tests. Other insurances, like auto, don’t cover maintenance. Oil changes, tire rotations, are paid by the owner and shopped. Maybe healthcare shouldn’t either.
Friedman or Keynes. It does not matter. This is about people going broke or dying because they cannot get medical care.
The Milton Friedman rubbish belongs in the classroom. The same goes for Keynes’ nonsense. This is the real world.
It’s time to stop grandstanding over providing access to health care.
We are hearing the same garbage from the conservative movement (almost word for word) we heard when Social Security and Medicare were proposed. Life expectancy has gone way up since Medicare began. Don’t give me the “Medicare is nearly broke” crap. The Republicans have nearly blown up Medicare by the crazy prescription drug plan(as a suck-up to the elderly vote) enacted in the Bush years. If it is such a good idea to provide governmenat run healthcare to old folks, why is it bad to provide it to kids? Oh yeah, it’s just a bunch of poor people with little voice and voting power. We had a budget surplus at the end of the Clinton years but last year when Obama took over the deficit was quite the opposite. Why is it that what conservatives preach about (cut spending, no taxes, lower the deficit) never happens when they come to power? Reagan, Bush & Bush = Deficit, deficit, and more deficit. Now Obama is the bad guy? “Do as I say, not as I do” has been the conservative mantra for conservative leadership for the past 30 years.
What you say sounds a little too simple for the sake of reality. When you are hurting, shopping around can be difficult. But, the current bills being proposed address the “test after test issue”. Tort reform is really something that would stop that kind of thing and I hope it ends up being a significant part of the bill.
By the way I’m 64, not young and not all that healthy. Though I’m doing all I can to avoid taking expensive medicines to control Cholesterol and Blood Pressure. Maybe if my health insurance paid the vast majority of those drug costs, I could forget about healthy eating and working out. I’m only suggesting that we have to pay some portion of our medical bills in order to bring the economic issues of supply and demand into the equation. A health plan that pays everything – that’s the kind of plan you want – isn’t it? isn’t it?
To David,
Who makes laws in this country? Congress. Who is responsible for budget spending? Congress. What party had control of Congress when the Clinton Administration ended? Republicans. Who has had control of congress the past three years? Democrats. We have separation of powers in our government and congress is responsible for law passage and the budget spending. If you want to give Kudos to the Clinton admin and place blame on Bush, go back to school and study how our goverment works. Perhaps then you will understand what is going on. The Clinton era ended in a surplus because the Republican controlled congress said NO to rampant spending. We need some of our politicians to say no to the ridiculous spending going on and to start paying attention to their jobs, instead of being drunk on their power as the so called elite in this country. That goes for both parties. The checking account is in the red, the piggy bank is empty, the workers are out of work. Stop the new spending. Being born an American or coming here to be one, legally or illegally, is NOT A BLANK CHECK to lifetime enititlement.
I truly believe there are many misconceptions about the third party payer system. Even though health insurance companies have been demonized throughout this process, there are tens of millions of Americans who entrust them with their health insurance.
The bottom line is they have been very effective at making health insurance affordable in a heavily regulated business while….yes….attempting to earn a profit of a few cents on the dollar.
The real problem or dirty little secret with third party payment is the problem caused by the current government programs. Yes, the same people that want to usurp even more control of the health care industry. Medicare is bankrupting the federal government. Medicaid is bankrupting many states. And we want to add even more government control of our health care?
And don’t forget, too, that the evil health insurance companies are paying a premium on health care services since providers are forced to shift costs to them due to low and/or slow reimbursements from government programs. Arent’ we approaching 40% or more of all health care payments being made by a government program?
Just for sake of argument, let’s say a government program reimbursed a provider at 80 cents on the dollar. In order to break even, the provider would have to charge 120 cents on the dollar for those of us on private insurance plans simply to break even.
“Waste, fraud and abuse” is something we have heard quite a bit about from politicians over the past several months. If there is so much WF&A in Medicare, then let’s start by getting rid of it before we scrap the current system and hand control over to the federal government. If they have already identified areas where we waste money, then stop talking about it and get on it. In other words, force bureaucrats to immediately begin to rectify the situation…plain and simple.
We hear a lot of general statements about people dying in the streets or going on skid row due to onerous health care bills. I’m not naive enough to think that this does not occur, but it’s hard to believe this is a rampant problem. If it was a rampant problem, the press would be hitting us between the eyes with story after story since they also desperately want a nationalized health care system.
These same things happen to people who smoke, drink, gamble or lavishly spend their way into destitution. Am I supposed to pay for these people, too.
Again, though, debating the finer points of this legislation is meaningless. Up is down, right is left, black is white….reality and the truth do not matter anymore. These politicians and elitists will do and say anything to grab power.
Funny how liberals forget how government works. They forget that our soon to be departing Senator Chris Dodd who spent the last 3 decades spending like a drunk sailor, (Oh I forgot he was drunk like a sailor with Ted Kennedy) and Chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, along with his queer friend Bwarney Fwank who was in charge of the House Banking committee who allowed Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae to sell bundled loans that everyone knew would explode eventually. Theres where the blame lies, not with the Bush Administration. Watch your C-SPAN tapes of the House committees review of new regulations presented by the Bush Administration to Barney Frank and listen to what he said then about the financial condition of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.
It is undeniably negligent oversight by Dodd and Fwank.
As a suggestion, David, why don’t you watch this video and educate yourself a bit. If you think his thoughts are “crap,” then you deserve all the same “crap” you will have to take when our government takes over all of health care. Unfortunately, the rest of us who know better will be forced to eat those same rank smelling sandwiches right along with you.
What is your point? The Repbublican majority managed to black out CSPAN when they debated and passed the Prescription addition to Medicare that is essentially a $1.2 million nightmare that is too complicated to figure out, offers no cost controls (the gov’t can’t negotiate against the drug companies), and is funded 100% deficit spending. How long can Medicare last when you add that kind of burden without identifying ways to fund it? It also goes 100% counter to what the conservative Kool-Aid drinkers supposedly stand for. Everyone on FOX and related outlets talk about what the big bad Obama is going to do…Well the Republicans DID this. BTW…Don’t you think the whole thing with using the Pres’ middle name is getting over done? Grow up.
I invite you to read Alan Greenspan’s book. He goes into specific detail on how Clinton decided to wait on pushing for things he promised in getting elected in favor of attacking the deficit imediately. It’s not me saying it. It’s the Fed Chairman himself. Bubba is the one President who actually call for address a joint session of congress to specifically talk about the deficit. He proposed and Congress/Senate passed (with Repbublican help) a new tax that went only to the deficit. Deficit has been a huge Democrat talking point for a number of years. You may recall Mondale lost his election to Reagan partly due to his reliance on the deficit as an issue while the Great Communicator stayed away from something so complicated and “not important to most Americans.”
I just love the revisionist history that lies at the core of the liberal thought process.
First of all, conservatives hated the prescription drug plan passed during the Bush presidency. Ironically, I believe it actually came in under budget, which might be due to a competitive element involving private entities providers. Nonethless, conservatives are still very wary of the program.
On Ronald Wilson Reagan, his tax policy resulted in a doubling of federal tax revenue with a drastic reduction in tax rates. Yes, for all you liberals out there, lower rates actually increase revenue due to less punishment on wealth generating activities. Higher tax rates, which can also be referred to as punishment for economic activity, normally have the exact opposite effect in the long-run.
It’s not about “growing up” or hate mongers or right wingers….it’s about simple economics and human nature. Until we learn that (and take a little look at history along the way), we will never get out of this mess. Some good old fashioned, freedom loving action driven by rugged individualism and self-reliance will serve us all very well.
Medicare and Social Security are great ideas in that it takes care of our elderly and less fortunate. However, we have to ask ourselves a key question….to what end? Are we really willing to punish all attempts at success, allow our government to spend our nation into oblivion and ruin the greatest economy the world has ever known? It is certainly starting to look that way.
Well you called George – “W” well how about Hussien! It is his name isnt it.
It was Obama who promised us 8 different times on TV it would be debated on CSPAN. Well….. I wonder If Bush was so stupid to do such a thing would we ever hear the end of it from the likes of guys like you dude. I remember when dems made George SR raise taxes. Remember “Read my lips” well…. WHERE IS THE CSPAN DEBATE!
I hear crickets dude……
Liberals can only argue with an factless emotional outburst of ridicule.
Good point Jim S. America’s health care should be put back in the hands of Americans, not employers, Governments or unions.
Americans should be able to shop for their own health care plan and their own providers in a free market with transparent pricing and provider evaluations, just the same way they they purchase auto insurance, cell phone plans, banking services, investment plans, mortgages or a car.
Competition coupled with savvy consumers are powerful tools in reducing health care costs.
Way to go, Bill. I am amazed that this comes down to now we have a person upset that President Obama’s middle name is being used. As you said, it is his name. So many others have been referred by all their names, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, George W Bush, Richard Milhouse Nixon, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, William Howard Taft, Uslysses S Grant. It is one office where it seems to be tradition to use one’s middle name, or initial.
It was also Candidate Obama who promised the transparency in negotiations, over and over and over. Unfortunately so many beleived these lies and voted for this change. Once you have voted for it and that person has won, you are stuck with it for 4 years. Lies and all. And the transparency was nothing more than a lie to get elected. There will be no transparency and no CSPAN coverage. We need a media who reports on what is acutally going on, instead of what we have now with the big networks, nothing more than Entertainment Tonight! May we find another Ronald Reagan in this next presidential election cycle to get us out of this mess before the country is destroyed!
AMEN TO TX LADY…..WE ARE STUCK FOR 3 YEARS AND HIS POLL #’S ARE DECREASING. I AM NOT A RACIST BUT I BELIEVE DUE TO HIS RACE, HE GOT ELECTED!!!
I REALLY WANTED HIS PROMISES TO COME THRU FOR THE NATION BUT KNEW THEY WOULD NOT. I COULD NOT HAVE VOTED FOR HIM.. WHERE’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE? WHERE DID HE GET ALL HIS MONEY WHEN HE WORKED FOR PRO-BONO? IS HE MUSLIM?
SO MANY QUESTIONS THAT WE DO NOT HAVE ANSWERS FOR!!!!!!!!!
I think Outraged and Jim S. have nailed it. Competition in a free enterprise system has and will always maximize efficiency and innovation.
Striving for market share and profit are the motives that make it all happen rather than the evils they have been potrayed as.
It could not be more obvious that Obama and his fellow liberals and progressives (Democrats and Republicans alike) are loath at the notion that individuals can and should take care of themselves. If that were to be the overriding notion of the electorate, though, there source of power would be gone in a heartbeat.
When a politician spews rhetoric about what they are going to do for us, one can bet the rent it is really what they are going to do to us.
An uninformed and dependent elecorate is just what the doctor ordered for liberals. The love crisis even if they have to create or fabricate them since they strive for everyone to look to them – the elites and central planners – to make it all better.
Rugged individualism? Self-reliance? Entrepreneurial spirit? Truly caring for our fellow man and the less fortunate without involving the government? They hate these notions since it means one very dangerous thing: the government is not any more necessary to us than as stated in the Constitution. Oh the horror!
So, I’m just curious if anyone here was opposed to a lot of Bush’s legislations that he made law? Notably, the Patriot
Act which was a good thing for it’s intended uses but this also applies to you and I. Any president from then on can name ANYONE an enemy combatent.
And that simply makes you one just because the president says so. This
applies to you and I.
He also suspended Habeas Corpus of all things back in 2006
and then was detaining American citizens because they did not agree with the
war in Iraq.
He has shown an outright hostility to freedom of speech. In the name of combating “indecency,” the FCC under Bush has raised its punitive fines to outrageous new levels, wasted money on an “investigation” of Janet Jackson’s breast during the super bowl, and pressured Clear Channel to drop the Howard Stern Show. Bush has applied and maintained draconian restrictions on the press in Iraq, even forbidding the photography of flag-draped caskets returning home.
As a result of Bush’s policies, the government has even attacked freedom of assembly, creating “free speech zones” and keeping war protesters away when Bush appears on camera. This also happend at the RNC National Convention in 2008 where dozens of people were just sitting around and were arrested for “causing a disturbance”.
I’ll admit that I’m seeing some similarities between Bush’s and Obama’s policies (although a bit different) but, c’mon….lets be “Fair & Balanced” here.
TODAY SHOW REPORTED 1-7-10 THAT THE TERRORIST THAT WERE DEPORTED TO THEIR OWN COUNTRIES FROM GITMO ARE NOW INVOLVED IN TERRORIST ACTIVIES AGAIN!
SO, WHICH PREZ CLOSED GITMO????????
SINCE THE SUBJECT WAS CHANGED, LET’S CHANGE IT AGAIN!
Come one, Allan, get real. Based on your post, one would think innocent men, women and children are being dragged from their beds and thrown into gulags without any hope of due process.
The bottom line is I am not worried about Johnny Law or the feds busting into my home and cracking heads. That is as long as I’m not talking to or fraternizing with terrorists or somehow running afoul of the law.
I think if Bush did anything right it was to make every attempt to keep the U.S. safe. We can debate the wars, the Patriot Act and other issues, but it stands to reason he knew we were at war and tried to fight one. He dilly dallied for far too long in Iraq. He kicked in teeth of the Taliban, but lost focus due to a lack of commitment to really taking care of the situation in Iraq.
He obviously made mistakes, but at least he did not apologize for the efforts of his own country. The U.S. is not an empire, but rather tries to do the right thing and help others around the world by military, humanitarian and financial means.
And while we’re on Bush, many conservatives were not happy with many of his policies. He effectively cut taxes, which helped generate economic growth and federal tax revenues. However, he went along with deficit spending done by Congress while under the control of both parties.
However, I think he was a good man. He withstood relentless, nasty and personal attacks from the opposition (Democrats and the press). Believe it or not, conservatives were also in opposition to many of his policies as stated above. I think, though, he was able to maintain class through it all. You might disagree, but this is one man’s opinion.
Amen Buckeye! The press hounded Bush relentlessly the last 4 years,I doubt if many could have stood the pressure. Mr. Obama is treated with kid gloves and any criticism the president or his administration is called racism. When it was Bush, it was justifiable outrage, but now it’s that we must all be racists.
Buckeye, I am being real. Innocent men, women and children are not being dragged from their beds and thrown into gulags without any hope of due process. At least for right now and most likely will not happen for a while or not at all. But it very well can happen and it is perfectly legal to do so right now. All implemented by Bush.
Now, you mention “you’re not worried about Johnny Law or the feds busting into my home and cracking heads. That is as long as I’m not talking to or fraternizing with terrorists or somehow running afoul of the law.”
You shouldn’t be worried about it but appauled that we are not as protected under our Constitution as we have been in the past.
Thanks, Joe, for weighing in. I agree that Allan is way over the top in his mortal fear of the Patriot Act.
There are certainly differing views on how it can be used by law enforcement. However, there are many reasonable people who agree it was enacted to help identify and combat terrorist activities and has been used accordingly.
Most of us are not quaking in fear that our phone is being tapped when we call Auntie Em. Even though it has been in effect for years, we have certainly not heard horror stories about senseless rights violations of innocent civilians as suggested by Allan.
If rights violations had been occurring, then the press would have been screaming from the rooftops with yet another opportunity to rip into Bush. Let’s not forget, too, that the Patriot Act was passed overwhelmingly by both parties. Just like both parties (as well as previous administrations) agreed on weapons of mass destruction and authorized the war in Iraq.
It’s like this, Allan. If I fraternize with seedy individuals, especially people suspected of having terrorist ties, then I should not get all worked up if I’m in the cross hairs of the authorities. Too bad, so sad.
I also think it is rather ironic that those supporting liberal / progressive polices are so concerned about the Patriot Act. Is there anything more oppressive than liberal / progressive policies? Oppressive confiscatory tax polices? Job-killing regulation? Political correctness? Limits on free speech? Gun control?
And for the record, the views of “right wingers” or conservatives are based on freedom and liberty. Left wingers are all about central command, government control and oppression. All of the notorious dictators and ruthless facists (Hitler, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hussein, Chavez, Jong-il to name a few) were / are leftists. So all you so-called compassionate liberals out there, face the facts and get over it.
That might very well be something we will never know. And probably something we do not need to know.
The fact we have not had additional successful attacks since 9/11 might suggest it has worked. Or the fact that we took the fight to the terrorists on their turf might be another reason.
I, personally, do not need a blow by blow update on all the gory details of military and intelligence operations. Actually, I think many of these things should be kept secret.
Admittedly, I get very annoyed at this penchant we now have to talk in great detail about military operations, especially our plans and strategy for the future. Wouldn’t military operations have a better chance of success if we avoid telegraphing our plays?
If the Patriot Act has, in fact, been less effective than planned, then it might stand to reason it could have been caused by leaking of its details by liberals and their friends in the press. I think the enemy could take counter measures if they know our surveillance strategy.
And the reason Gitmo is being closed isn’t because it is ineffective. It has proven to be a very well-run institution for keeping terrorists off the streets and battlefield (that is as long as our weak leaders don’t release them back to terroist backing governments). It is being closed since it is supposedly bad for our image.
It appears to me that virtually all of the bad image stems from baseless and fabricated accounts of mistreatment of those in custody. Liberals were so bent on spewing hatred for Bush and winning an election that they lied about Gitmo. Now we have a real dilemma on our hands.
And, by the way, how’s that Obama thing working out for those of you who are so horrified about Gitmo? We have and will continue to release these animals or try them in our US criminal courts or move them to prison facilities on our soil.
And we’re still not sure if Obama will follow through with his pledge to the left and our enemies to close Gitmo. Is anyone really surprised, though, that he seems to have once again uttered words with a forked tongue? And we thought Bill Clinton took politics and slickness to new heights. Well, I think the chosen one is in a league all his own in that regard.
Whenever I think about the Patriot Act, I think back to the Ben Franklin quote “those who choose safety over freedom deserve neither”.
You want 100% safety, declare martial law. I rather not have the Patriot Act, and have more of my freedoms back.
I do find it funny that people that are against the healthcare bill (which I am hard core against) are saying its a grab for power by the government, but somehow do not see the Patriot Act as a similer grab for power.
I don’t disagree with you one bit relative to your thoughts, which were stated so well by Ben Franklin.
My only point is that I am not buying into the hysteria over the Patriot Act. No one has provide what I believe an accurate account of the liberties our citizens have sacrificed in the name of safety and security.
Can my phone be tapped for any reason? Can my financial records be monitored and confiscated for any reason? I don’t have reason to believe the answer to either one of these questions is “yes.” I’m all ears, though, if someone can convince me to the contrary.
Whether it is Gitmo, health care or the Patriot Act, liberals and progressives appear bent on creating crisis or shamelessly taking advantage of legitimate problems in order to advance their agenda. Even when we have a real problem, they seem to always propose “solutions” that will likely only exacerbate the problem.
What I am thoroughly convinced of is liberals / progressives will never let reality, truth or the facts get in the way of really taking away our freedom so we can let them (the elites, those purporting to do things for us via the government, the supposed do-gooders) direct our lives. We are bombarded by pathetic falsehoods and revisionist history almost daily in their tireless effort to dupe us into letting it happen.
Another thing I’m sure about is once government programs are in place we will never get rid of them regardless of how miserably they fail. The thought of taking care of our less fortunate and elderly is a wonderful idea that makes many of feel very good about ourselves.
However, are we willing to bankrupt the country and ruin it for our kids in the process? It appears we are very willing.
It stands to reason that we have already proven government is not the answer. They have made promises to the American people that we simply cannot keep. We have more and more people on the receiving end of government “assistance” with fewer and fewer of us paying the freight. And we think Madoff ran a big ticket Ponzi scheme? He’s got nothing on the clowns we keep sending back to Washington DC.
I think most of you are missing the point. The point I’m trying to make is regarding our freedoms. After the Bush policies and 9-11 I never gave it a second thought. That is until I saw this documentary and seeing where Obama is going with some of his policies. As hard as it is for me to admit.
Look at history and look what Bush implemented and see where our future government is going.
It’s not only the Patriot Act it’s also the Military Commission Act that was passed in 2006. That’s scary!
The thing here I don’t understand is why is it ok for Bush to do what he did and not ok for Obama? They are both messed up.
I’m sorry, Allan. I’m not seeing it and not buying it. I think the documentary is full of hype. Like Bush or not, I have a hard time with anyone who actually thinks there is a remote similarity between Bush and Hitler.
Hype??? What hype? This happend! So again, you don’t mind if Bush tramples on our rights for what was deemed as a good cause, but if Obama does it he’s Hitler?
This does not make sense. By the way, Obama has not reinstate Habeus Corpus or undon any of the legislation Bush put in effect either. So, that means Obama or anyone in the future can abuse their power agains ANY american citizen and get away with it.
I get your point, Allan. I simply don’t see the evidence to support your intense concern with the Patriot Act or contention that Bush trampled on rights.
A documentary does not a position make. One man’s damning evidence can be another man’s propaganda. I’m in the latter category on this one relative to the documentary. I simply view it as hype and am not buying into the hysteria. An Inconvenient Truth comes to mind.
I respect your concern, but, again, let’s just agree to disagree.
Really? So you never hear of other advocay groups here in America that were spyed on? And when the government found out they were of no threat at all they still continued to spy on them even further? How about last year when the government was dropping in on our serviceman overseas phone calls? What was with that?
How about some of the journalist that were mentioned that were arrested, detained and then let go with no charges filed? How about that serviceman who faught in Vietnam, served our country honorably then when he spoke out about the war in Iraq he (not to mention other journalists) ended up on the TSA terror watchlist. Not only him, but his whole entire family. Really, his family too????? I know of another list that was used in 1930’s Germany.
Then the other interviews with former government employees? It’s all just made up? All books and documentaries that you do not agree with are just hype? Well I guess that goes with Dick Morris, Glen Beck, Mark Levin and the rest of them. It’s just all hype with no facts. Do you see where I’m going?
It’s not only the Patriot Act, it’s also the Military Commissions Act of 2006 which suspends Habeus Corpus. That was a slap in the face to our founding fathers.
So basically what you are telling me and the folks reading this is that you are ok with our freedoms being infringed on by Bush regarding the war on terror and the war in Iraq but, not Obama and what he’s doing with Health Care?
The health care deal isn’t really that intrusive. A bit unconstitutional yes, but not nearly as intrusive as what Bush has implemented.
You need to open your mind a bit more.
Did you see the whole documentary? This is just one that I’ve the few that I’ve seen.
What I think, Allan, is you need to let it go, man. I don’t agree…plain and simple.
Don’t forget, too, that this was not just Bush. I realize it is still chic to hammer the guy, but there was a body 535 who overwhelmingly supported the Patriot Act and all of these other supposed heinous matters you reference. And many of them are still in office. Bush is gone, Allan….completely out of power.
By the way, is “a bit unconsitutional” the same as being a little bit pregnant. Just curious.
Exactly! It was ok for the previous administration to infringe on our rights but not this one.
Maybe because he’s a Democrat?
Belive me, I don’t mind that we have the Patriot Act. We don’t use the intelligence it supplies anyways. I’m just pointing out the difference of what the previous administration did and what this current administration is doing with health care. Both aren’t good but the Conservative/Republican base does not acknowlege the two. Same as you.
Care to comment on the Military Commissions Act of 2006 where you and I can be named as an enemy combatent just because the president says we are? No one in the future may even exercies their power to use it. But it’s there and they very well could. So, be careful of who’s in office at the time and if you decide to speak out against the government.
Keep in mind the person who wrote the book and made the documentary was during Bush’s last term in office so, there was nothing political she could have gotten from it.
The only thing I’m finding unconstitutional with the Health Bills is that’s mandated that everyone purchase the insurance and how it will tax others to pay for it.
The policy recsisions, pre-existing condition exclusions and non-profits is what I’m happy with.
Once again, Allan, let’s agree to disagree. Let it go, dude.
And I will sleep easy tonight with complete confidence I will not be named an enemy combatant and yanked from my bed. It’s OK if you want to sleep with one eye open, but I will choose not to.
You can not believe what you say? There is a thing called logic and reason.
Patriot act kept you safe for the last eight years from muslim kids flying to the US with a bomb in his underwear and his dad calling the state department who put him on the wrong list.
I have no problem with anyone who can justify why they have suspissions of someone who might want to kill 3000 people in airplanes or someone who is calling pakistan everynight to discuss Jihad.
I am alot more scared of the white house establishing and requesting liberals to report anyone who disagrees with their desire for Government controled healthcare. They had and still do as far as we know have a list of emails with IP addresses on anyone who disagrees with their position. I guess I can expect a worm virus from the government someday soon.
That scares me more than Bush actually protecting us.
The only “rights” that appear to have been violated appear to be overseas terrorists. Name one citizen who had there rights violated by GW. Other than in the airport where I am willing to sacrifice a little personal dignity for safety. Name one, troll. Whose phone was tapped, who was placed in jail without access to the courts? Where were all of these citizen rights violated?
i am just happy that Allan and Buckeye both got off work Friday at 4:30 PM. Who knows how long that snoozefest conversation about the Patriot Act would have lasted if they weren’t on the clock.
Admittedly, probably not very interesting or much of a conversation in the grand scheme of things. Not sure, then, why you devoted your obviously invaluable time to read it. Just curious.
James Yee – Army Chaplin assigned to GITMO spoke out against the treatment that the detainees were getting. He had enrolled in a masters program and was doing research on Syria and Islam. When he was found in possesion of articles that were printed off the internet, he was charged with sedition, aiding the enemy, spying, espionage and failure to obey a general order; he faced a possible death sentence. And yet no evidence against him was ever presented. In 2004 all the criminal charges were dropped. Yee spent 76 days in solitary confinement in a U.S. Navy brig in Charleston, S.C., before being charged. This is in violation of the 6th amendment of the US constitution.
Maher Arar – a telecommunications engineer with dual Syrian and Canadian citizenship who resides in Canada. Arar was detained during a layover at John F. Kennedy International Airport in September 2002 on his way home to Canada from a family vacation in Tunis. He was held in solitary confinement in the United States for nearly two weeks, questioned, and denied meaningful access to a lawyer. The US government suspected him of being a member of Al Qaeda and deported him, not to Canada, his current home, but to his native Syria, even though its government is known to use torture. He was detained in Syria for almost a year, during which time he was tortured, according to the findings of the Arar Commission, until his release to Canada. This is in violation of the 6th amendment of the US constitution.
Bilal Hussein – Associated Press photojournalist based in Fallujah, Iraq, won the 2005 Pulitzer Prize for Breaking News Photography. Hussein had been detained by U.S. forces, suspected of aiding insurgents in Iraq. He faced charges in the Iraqi Central Court based on scrutiny over the circumstances of his photos and evidence supplied by the U.S. military, which were directed by be ceased. Basically, he took photos of dead children that were killed by American fire and reporting it.
On September 17, 2006, it was reported that Hussein has been imprisoned by the United States military since April 2006 without publicly known charges or hearings for 2 years. All charges were dropped and Hussein was free to go. This was in violation of amendment 6 of the US Constitution and in disregard to the Geneva Conventions.
Josh Wolf – an American journalist who was jailed by a Federal district court on August 1, 2006 for refusing to turn over a collection of videotapes he recorded during a July 2005 demonstration in San Francisco, California. Wolf served 226 days in prison at the Federal Correctional Institution, Dublin, California, longer than any other journalist in U.S. history has served for protecting source materials. He eventually was released and charges dropped. This is restricting the free press and in line with violation for the 1st amendment to the US Constitution.
Amy Goodman – reporter for Democracy Now was arrested and detained while covering the protests during the RNC Convention in St. Paul, MN in 2008. She was booked, detained and released with no charges. This violates the right to assembly and free press under the US Constitution.
So, there are 5 people who’s rights have been violated under W. Not to mention David Antoon who was a decorated vet who served in Vietnam. He and his whole family ended up on the TSA watch list after he publicaly spoke out against the war in Iraq. Really? His whole family???? What does this echo?
David Zirin – sports writer and activist against the death penalty. Undercover spy from Homeland Security sat in the meetings for a campaign to end the death penalty. Well within David and other activists rights and no violence. Yet still after it was determined that this group was not a threat, they were still spied on. It makes you think where all your tax money goes for the Homeland Security Office.
Try looking up H.R.1955 Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007. It was so loosely worded that it made any assembly that was protesting against the government illegal. It almost passed and had it did, the Tea Party peeps would have all been thrown in jail.
Try looking up the Signing Statements that Bush signed durring his presidency. 110 of them. The most out of every president. President Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws enacted since he took office, asserting that he has the power to set aside any statute passed by Congress when it conflicts with his interpretation of the Constitution.
I was mostly curious if you would go this far back to make sure you had the last word on this and any other posting. Your vulgar and idiotic response to a reasonable posting is an indication you aren’t the smartest kid on your block or any other. By the way, this is an opinion posting site, not a doctoral thesis. Grow up a little in your vulgar responses. It’s childish and if you are actually in the insurance industry, a bit embarrasing to those of us who actually are professional in our demeanor. Also, study history a little, you might understand my reponse. Gee Allen, is your mommy calling you? Now, post again, I don’t have to prove my superiority by posting answers to every response.
Oh, yes you do or you wouldn’t be coming back here on this older post. Just like me:)
Yes, these post are for opinions or debate. But if one has an opinion, it should come from some sort of fact and base that opion from that fact or facts. Which, I lay down plenty. You??????
My persistance in responding to most of the verbal vomit coming out of these posts is the very reason I do so. I’m able to stand on my own two feet and think for myself and recieve credible information that backs it up. Unlike the likes of you and the others on here who just repeat what everyone else says. It’s like a bandwagon. I guess that’s why you refer to yourself as “nobody important.”
You said it yourself….you didn’t care about the facts. Now who sounds like the smarter kid on the block?
Oh, by the way, how would I be getting these headlines each day from Insurance Journal if I wasn’t in the business? Super Genius.
Sorry Allen, I don’t care to respond to your “facts,” true or not. I could spend time researching the illegal acts of any number of well loved Presidents in wartime, Wilson, FDR, Lincoln, but who cares. You may have time to spend hours a day trolling for “fact” on moveon.org or other sites, I don’t. I mearly state my opinions. By the way, I have no sympathy for any reporter. They seem to think that because of the freedom of the press that they give up their citizenship when they become a reporter. If only.
4. Your quote ” By the way, I have no sympathy for any reporter. They seem to think that because of the freedom of the press that they give up their citizenship when they become a reporter.” WTF??? Help me make sense of this?
5. You don’t care about the facts true or not? Then I’m sorry to say you are just f*cking stupid!
6. Are you able to find the bathroom so you don’t crap yourself?
Allen, who cares what you think? Isn’t that what you are telling me, I’m not entitled to an opinion without proof? Are you the boss here? Grow up child and learn that it’s ok for us to disagree without your childish vulgar and paranoid taunts. You are not smarter or better informed, live with it.
I forgot to include this. Let me write this down now Allen. I’m not allowed to state my opinion without proving it to your satisfaction with posts from other sources. This must satisfy you as the king of the internet or I must bow to your superior intelligence and judgment. Right. To pararphrase your posts, you are an arrogant A$$.
No, no. Please keep posting your ignorant opions that do not have any merit. It makes you look stupid and is entertaining picking you apart as you what say is not in the realm of reality and I’ve backed it up. So far, all you’ve done is given me is more opions after I’ve supplied facts. The least you could do is prove me wrong to support what you say is credible.
I’m having a great time laughing at your posts Allan. In well over 30 years in the business I have seen idiots like you come and go. You really are a joke. Nothing to see. Move along now.
If that’s the only fact I have posted I’m one up on you. I don’t really care about this line, but I just want to see if you will keep trying to get the last word on every posting. Blah blah blah
Everyone should remember that you cannot argue with a liberal without them eventually turning to a factless emotional outburst of ridicule. It is a basic tenate of the Saul Alinski approach to being a liberal radical, (lol) or idiot I am not sure which.
Just remember try not to argue with an idiot for some will not know the difference. I think this was one of Poor Richards quotes. (Ben Franklin) or should have been.
Allan, I know its hard for you stay on subject and mention any facts that are relevant to any discussion. But, hey you can not help it, you are a Liberal. You just have to admit it, Then you can realize that you are incapable of any level of reason or accountability and just blame conservatives for everthing bad that happens.
You’re correct though, the ultra right wing conservatives poop doesn’t stink. They are flawless.
I’m curious, do you ever process any thought before typing? Or, does it just come naturally for you rush in and post you’re thoughtless remarks?
If you’ve read any of what I’ve written, you would have noticed that I’m liberal in some areas and conservative in others. Yes, maybe I do lean a little to the liberal side of things, but there are plenty things conservative I agree with.
The main thing I can’t stand is stupid people. Both conservative and liberal.
We’re fully aware that Congressmen and Senators get free medical coverage for the rest of their lives…and will continue to; regardless of this bill… and so, we understand that too many won’t vote the issue…Every decision, every lobby, every vote is directed at “what will keep me in office.” We have over compensated our civil servants.
Your comments are right on, Buckeye. This reform bill has little to do with fixing health care, it’s a power grab by self-serving politicians. Americans are so shockingly ignorant of health care issues that they are allowing unscrupulous and ill-informed politicians to take full advantage of them in advancing their own political self-interest at the expense of taxpayers and future generations. It’s fascism with a socialist face. The same M.O. used by Adolph Hitler. Those who don’t learn from history are destined to repeat it. This is sadly a holocaust for middle class taxpayers and free market enterprise. Where is Milton Friedman when we need him?
WE don’t want this bill. We DON’T want this bill. We don’t WANT this bill. We don’t want THIS bill. We don’t want this BILL. WE DON’T WANT THIS BILL.
Are you even hearing us at all, Congress???
They hear you but just don’t care. Remember the heated town hall meetings — one dope senator said his town hall meeting was representative of a minority of the public and that he thinks the majority want this.
OPEN YOUR EARS — NOBODY WANTS THIS.
When you say WE, who are you referring to?
I believe they are referring to the vast majority of the citizens of the United States. Is that specific enough? Unfortunately, this same majority was so upset with the prior occupants in Washington they voted for anybody but the prior occupants rather than actually voting real issues. That has given us idiots in charge in Congress and and empty suit in the White House. Any further questions younin?
THE “MIDDLE CLASS” OF AMERICA DOES NOT WANT THIS!!!! THE SENATE AND HOUSE DO NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE UNDER THIS BILL…. THEY AND THE PRESIDENT WILL HAVE BETTER COVERAGE AND YOU AND I—THE MIDDLE CLASS—CONTINUE PAY FOR IT!!!
ONLY SOLUTION IS TO VOTE THESE IDIOTS OUT IN 2010 AND THE PREZ IN 3 YEARS!!!!!!!
The insurance companies will be held accountable; they will hope for a public option as noted by Pelosi. Sounds like a threat. They have no desire to help the uninsured, only their personal agendas. What a bunch of spoiled bratty whiny idiots. Get rid of the whole bunch!
Unfortunately, voting them out in November will be too late with the damage already done. How do we change the course of the future of this money grabbing, demoralizing bill now?
Call your congressmen and tell them you do not want this bill! Also, tell them that if the bill is passed then they-meaning congress- should suffer with it like the rest of us!!
Millions of “pink slips: have been sent to Congress declaring to vote them out if they pass a health care bill! Stand firm and call your elected reps!!!!!
I don’t know about your representatives, but all our contacts with them is answered by a form letter; I know their aides/pages (whatever they are) toss out the negative ones and send the form letter out.
I’ve tried calling Congressmen and Senators. Most of the time you get “This voice mailbox is full. Thank you for calling.” If you do get to leave a message, you get absolutely no response. Plus, my representatives in Arizona (Shadegg, Kyl, McCain) are mostly in the group that are against this bill, so I’m “preaching to the choir” with them. If I try to call other Congressmen and Senators, they won’t pay attention to me because I’m not from their district/state. Think Al Franken or Nancy Pelosi or Barney Frank or any of the others will listen to someone from out of their state?
WE don’t want this bill. We DON’T want this bill. We don’t WANT this bill. We don’t want THIS bill. We don’t want this BILL. WE DON’T WANT THIS BILL.
Read our email (LIPS) WE DO NOT WANT THIS BILL AS IT IS CURRENTLY PROPOSED, ALL and I MEAN ALL NEED TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO READ THE BILL, AND GO FROM THERE. NOW: how many of these Senators, Congress folks, etc will change “their insurance cov’g” to parallel what the common folk have or don’t have I suspect – let them go on SS Benefits when they retire, listen to the screaming & knashing of teeth! GIVE ME BACK MY AMERICA PLEASE!
There is a better way to to do health care in this country than what has been passed but, majority of the people will still say “it’s too much government” and our government is just to inept from executing good measures to improve our health care system.
We could have our cost to GDP down to less than 10% – 11% and our admin cost down around 8% or so. Low insurance premiums that everyone could afford, no policy rescinding, no exclusions fro pre-exisiting conditions and if you loose your employment, you don’t loose your coverage.
But, we’re too compounded by politics to do so.
Where do you get “vast majority”? Please cite your sources. Most of the polls I’ve seen are in the 48-52% oppose range.
The vast majority of americans want some kind of health care reform. The Democrats are offering something (bloated though it may be). The Republicans are offering “No”. If I walked around my company telling all my coworkers I disagree with them all the time, and offering no alternative suggestions, . . . well, I’d be fired. The Republicans are doing nothing (except saying NO) and getting paid handsomely for it. It’s time to hold our politicians accountable.
The Republicans HAVE been offering alternatives, and NOBODY IS COVERING IT. Specifically, to name one, and I know this because I live here, and heard him discuss it, John Shadegg has proposed a bill, and a darn good one, but the MSM never covers it. It is totally false to claim that the Republicans are offering nothing. Get your facts straight.
Does anyone see anything wrong with excluding the Republicans from the compromise bill? Are all of us supposed to be represented by our politicians? This process is a way for the democrats to cram the bill down America’s throat, and then the democrats can proclaim that they solved the health care problem. I hope everyone sees that the democrats are forgoing a Democracy by shutting out half of America in this issue.
The second big problem is that their bill doesn’t address the cost of healthcare; it addresses the cost of health insurance! If they were to figure out how to reduce the cost of healthcare, insurance costs would decrease as well! One solution is to make the patients (us) responsible to pay our medical bills and get reimbursed by the insurance carriers. Once we start paying and seeing the costs involved, we will start comparison shopping, which would create competition amongst the providers, and lower costs.
Charley you make some good points. However another big issue that is widely misstated and just accepted is the fact that 10% of the population without insurance creates major increases in the insurance costs of 85% of the population. It does not make sense. These non-insured, including the 20 somethings that are indestructable, do not go to the doctor every year and probably not every other year. I’m old, get annual physicals and spend as little time as possible at the doctor. Maybe others are not as fortunate, but the additional is nominal in the big picture of $2.5 trillion.
To reiterate, the 30 mil without ins. do not drive signicant increases in costs to the other 285 mil with insurance. That said, lets fix the root cause of the issues as outlined by several republicans and stop this socialism before its too late.
Don’t regurgitate liberal talking points youngin. This is not health care reform. It’s a government takeover. Raw power play. If you think Republicans have not tried to work on this you haven’t been paying attention or are just another liberal troll.
The Repubs ARE offering ideas, but the Dems won’t listen. The Repubs are offering the idea of tort reform, let health companies compete across state lines. The repubs are treating the CAUSE of the problem (high health insurance rates) whereas the dems are treating the symptoms. The Repubs are not the “party of no” ad the Dems would have you believe. People don’t want to hear that they have been irresponible, they just want to hear what you can give them.
That’s a good point. The democrats are so concerned about the uninsureds and they want to get them free coverage. However, face the facts: the uninsureds got free coverage anyway. Something goes awry with their health, they go to the emergency room, and the taxpayers pay for it through the Federal subsidies given to hospitals. Under this democrat plan, it will raise the cost because now those uninsureds will take the free coverage AND many currently insureds will drop coveage and get on the free plans to. Why pay if you qualify for free coverage?
JOHN, RIGHT ON!!!! THE ESTIMATED MILLIONS THAT DO NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE ARE MOSTLY ILLEGAL ALIENS WHO GO TO ER’S AND DO NOT PAY A PENNY TOWARD THE COST OF THEIR TRATMENT SINCE THEY ARE ILLEGAL. THEY ALSO THEN GO TO THE GOVERNMENT FUNDED(SUPPLEMENTED BY THE GOVT) TO GET THEIR PRESCRIPTIONS FOR FREE!! ALSO, THEY CAN GET FREE HOUSING, DENTAL, SSI, FOOD STAMPS, AND WELFARE(SOCIAL SECURITY) UP TO $1200 A MONTH. WHEREAS, LITTLE OLD LADIES WHO WORKED FOR 40 YEARS, HAVE TO GET BY ON LOW SOCIAL SECURITY AMOUNS–SOME I KNOW AT $750-$1000) A MONTH! WHEN ILLEGALS GET MORE AFTER NOT PAYING ANYTHING INTO THE SYSTEM AND LOWER-PAYING JOBS THAT OLDER PEOPLE HAD FOR 40 YEARS GET SUCH A SMALL AMOUNT, IT IS CRIMINAL!!!!!!
Way to go, Yougin’. It is nice to see someone who pays attention. Want to know the largest government expansion of healthcare coverage since Medicare? Look up the Prescription Drug addition to Medicare passed by the combination Bush administration and the Republicans in the Senate/Congress a few years ago. It is funded entirely by deficit spending. It is a $1.2 billion (and growing) nighmare that is extremely complicated, and offers no chance for the government to use their size and purchasing power to negotiate better drug prices. So, the drug companies get to charge what they want. No cost controls!! It has dealt serious injury to Medicare and the deficit. The Bush administration threatened to fire the chief actuary for Medicare when he threatened to reveal the real projected costs prior to the bill’s passing. The Republican controlled Senate kept the voting period open for three hours longer than usual and somehow CSPAN was blacked out during the debate. It was a total suck-up to the elderly voting block and nothing else. Some arguments in this post are identical to the arguments against Medicare in the 60s and Social Security in the 30s. How many of you so called “Patriots” will give up your SS and Medicare benifits based on your moronic principles?
Who wants this bill to pass? Maybe the 45,ooo or so people who die every year due to lack of access to quality care. Many Americans do want this in a big way. I want it and I have great benefits. Although it lacks a public option (and therefore cost control) just to make Joe Lieberman and his private health insurer lobyist wife happy, it is a start. Republicans have been dragged kicking and screaming throughout this process and STILL have not offered an alternative other than NO. Remember that Congressman and Senators get free medical care for the rest of their lives! How many of you brain-dead sycophants know that?
Yeah, the Former Congressman Bill Tauzin, R-La., who spear headed the bill through the House, retired soon after and took a $2 million a year job as president PHARMA, the main industry lobbying group.
How fitting.
Unfortunately, debating the finer points of this bill falls into the “day late and dollar short” category.
This has nothing to do with health care or health insurance. It is ALL ABOUT government control….plain and simple.
Those of us who saw Obama and the liberals in Congress for what they are and will always be were screaming from the rooftops during the last election. Unfortunately, the MSM was in the tank and we have way too many mindless dolts running to the voting booth to pull the lever for Democrats.
The Democrats have certainly been very effective at taking full advantage of a very friendly press and an extremely uninformed electorate. The problem with liberal policy, though, is the rest of us have to live under the oppressive policies implemented by liberals.
One of the more sickening elements o this whole matter, though, is the Republican Party blew it big time. They almost completely abandoned conservatism and lost both Congress and the White House in a two year span. I realize they are swimming upstream due to the liberal MSM, but conservatism speaks for itself and can withstand a corrupt media. Those of us old enough and honest enough to remember the success of Ronald Wilson Reagan understand it can be done.
So, what happens after Obama has left and some of the Democratic seats in the house and senate are replaced? How would any of this benefit them after they are gone? I mean, if it benefits them now, how does it benefite them in the future.
Same with past administrations decisions.
There is a type of surgery that has been performed for about 20 years. That surgery now costs 1/10th or less than it did when first performed, and the quality is 5 times as good.
What’s that surgery – Lasik eye surgery – why – there is no third party payment involved. We need to act as consumers, not as people walking around with a credit card where someone else gets the bill.
Love the reference, Outraged and Disgusted, to Milton Friedman. Unfortunately, there are probably tens of millions of people (i.e. uninformed voters) who have never even heard of Milton Friedman let alone understand his amazing economic mind.
His absolute torching of Phil Donahue, who during an interview of Dr. Friedman was espousing the “wonders” of socialism while tearing into capitalism, should be a requirement for all students and anyone preparing to walk into a voting booth.
The current political reality, and one that is taken complete advantage of by unscrupulous politicians, results in an attempt to make everyone feel guilty for not caring about our fellow man and those less fortunate than us. Friedman hit this very hard in his very measured, but hard hitting remarks to Donahue.
Capitalism is the essence of compassion for others in that it provides ample opportunity for a free people to choose their own path in life and succeed as they see fit. Socialism, progressivism, redistribution of wealth policies, etc. are the exact opposite in that they punish success and rely on central planning (i.e. government / elitist control) to direct our lives.
In our current political environment, though, it is virtually impossible to consider oneself a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. Why? Because compassion and caring is defined by many as how much we pay in taxes and our government “invests” in social programs that are already proven failures or will undoubtedly fail. If you care, then you will support any and all government spending supposedly aimed at righting social wrongs and helping others. If we don’t want to pay more taxes or question government spending, then we are deemed evil or uncompassionate.
There are days it seems as if I woke up in a parallel universe. Will we ever get back to a point at which rugged individualism and self-reliance, personal and cultural qualities that made our country great, are not cast in a negative light? I would like to think so, but it will not happen without a great deal of change – cultural, individual and political.
Right, Lasik is a completely elective procedure. It is not needed as a life saver and the fact that the cost has come down via competition has nothing to do with someone who cannot gain access to a life saving procedure. A lot of people die or go broke (not just illegal aliens)searching for access to good medical care. Lasik is not and never was covered by medical insurance. I am not sure what your point is. Are you saying that acting as a consumer on life saving tripple bypass surgery is the right way to go? It is impossible for that type of procedure to be in the budget of most of the population. Do you really believe getting rid of the 3rd party would make someting like that affordable? You must be really young and healthy or just very light in life experiences.
David,
Obviously when you are in an emergency situation you cannot shop around, but for tests you can. For instance, an MRI can cost $1,000 and it can cost $10,000 depending on where you go. Routine blood and urine tests, if you had to pay and get reimbursed from medical insurance, would be shopped around. Also, you as a patient might start questioning why a doctor is ordering so many tests. Other insurances, like auto, don’t cover maintenance. Oil changes, tire rotations, are paid by the owner and shopped. Maybe healthcare shouldn’t either.
About Friedman/Donohue: Do you have a link where I could see a video or read a transcript of this event?
thanks!
Friedman or Keynes. It does not matter. This is about people going broke or dying because they cannot get medical care.
The Milton Friedman rubbish belongs in the classroom. The same goes for Keynes’ nonsense. This is the real world.
It’s time to stop grandstanding over providing access to health care.
We are hearing the same garbage from the conservative movement (almost word for word) we heard when Social Security and Medicare were proposed. Life expectancy has gone way up since Medicare began. Don’t give me the “Medicare is nearly broke” crap. The Republicans have nearly blown up Medicare by the crazy prescription drug plan(as a suck-up to the elderly vote) enacted in the Bush years. If it is such a good idea to provide governmenat run healthcare to old folks, why is it bad to provide it to kids? Oh yeah, it’s just a bunch of poor people with little voice and voting power. We had a budget surplus at the end of the Clinton years but last year when Obama took over the deficit was quite the opposite. Why is it that what conservatives preach about (cut spending, no taxes, lower the deficit) never happens when they come to power? Reagan, Bush & Bush = Deficit, deficit, and more deficit. Now Obama is the bad guy? “Do as I say, not as I do” has been the conservative mantra for conservative leadership for the past 30 years.
What you say sounds a little too simple for the sake of reality. When you are hurting, shopping around can be difficult. But, the current bills being proposed address the “test after test issue”. Tort reform is really something that would stop that kind of thing and I hope it ends up being a significant part of the bill.
By the way I’m 64, not young and not all that healthy. Though I’m doing all I can to avoid taking expensive medicines to control Cholesterol and Blood Pressure. Maybe if my health insurance paid the vast majority of those drug costs, I could forget about healthy eating and working out. I’m only suggesting that we have to pay some portion of our medical bills in order to bring the economic issues of supply and demand into the equation. A health plan that pays everything – that’s the kind of plan you want – isn’t it? isn’t it?
Insurance Journal, YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!
PUT DOWN THE KOOLAID. THIS LEGISLATION NO ONE WANTS. READ THE POLLS!!!
To David,
Who makes laws in this country? Congress. Who is responsible for budget spending? Congress. What party had control of Congress when the Clinton Administration ended? Republicans. Who has had control of congress the past three years? Democrats. We have separation of powers in our government and congress is responsible for law passage and the budget spending. If you want to give Kudos to the Clinton admin and place blame on Bush, go back to school and study how our goverment works. Perhaps then you will understand what is going on. The Clinton era ended in a surplus because the Republican controlled congress said NO to rampant spending. We need some of our politicians to say no to the ridiculous spending going on and to start paying attention to their jobs, instead of being drunk on their power as the so called elite in this country. That goes for both parties. The checking account is in the red, the piggy bank is empty, the workers are out of work. Stop the new spending. Being born an American or coming here to be one, legally or illegally, is NOT A BLANK CHECK to lifetime enititlement.
“This bill will debated out in the open, We will have it openly discussed on
C-SPAN!”
By the way I have said this 8 times TV!
READ MY LIPS- “We will have the most transparent administration ever!”
I truly believe there are many misconceptions about the third party payer system. Even though health insurance companies have been demonized throughout this process, there are tens of millions of Americans who entrust them with their health insurance.
The bottom line is they have been very effective at making health insurance affordable in a heavily regulated business while….yes….attempting to earn a profit of a few cents on the dollar.
The real problem or dirty little secret with third party payment is the problem caused by the current government programs. Yes, the same people that want to usurp even more control of the health care industry. Medicare is bankrupting the federal government. Medicaid is bankrupting many states. And we want to add even more government control of our health care?
And don’t forget, too, that the evil health insurance companies are paying a premium on health care services since providers are forced to shift costs to them due to low and/or slow reimbursements from government programs. Arent’ we approaching 40% or more of all health care payments being made by a government program?
Just for sake of argument, let’s say a government program reimbursed a provider at 80 cents on the dollar. In order to break even, the provider would have to charge 120 cents on the dollar for those of us on private insurance plans simply to break even.
“Waste, fraud and abuse” is something we have heard quite a bit about from politicians over the past several months. If there is so much WF&A in Medicare, then let’s start by getting rid of it before we scrap the current system and hand control over to the federal government. If they have already identified areas where we waste money, then stop talking about it and get on it. In other words, force bureaucrats to immediately begin to rectify the situation…plain and simple.
We hear a lot of general statements about people dying in the streets or going on skid row due to onerous health care bills. I’m not naive enough to think that this does not occur, but it’s hard to believe this is a rampant problem. If it was a rampant problem, the press would be hitting us between the eyes with story after story since they also desperately want a nationalized health care system.
These same things happen to people who smoke, drink, gamble or lavishly spend their way into destitution. Am I supposed to pay for these people, too.
Again, though, debating the finer points of this legislation is meaningless. Up is down, right is left, black is white….reality and the truth do not matter anymore. These politicians and elitists will do and say anything to grab power.
Funny how liberals forget how government works. They forget that our soon to be departing Senator Chris Dodd who spent the last 3 decades spending like a drunk sailor, (Oh I forgot he was drunk like a sailor with Ted Kennedy) and Chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, along with his queer friend Bwarney Fwank who was in charge of the House Banking committee who allowed Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae to sell bundled loans that everyone knew would explode eventually. Theres where the blame lies, not with the Bush Administration. Watch your C-SPAN tapes of the House committees review of new regulations presented by the Bush Administration to Barney Frank and listen to what he said then about the financial condition of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.
It is undeniably negligent oversight by Dodd and Fwank.
Here you go, Ratemaker. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p31-xQ2Rrz4
As a suggestion, David, why don’t you watch this video and educate yourself a bit. If you think his thoughts are “crap,” then you deserve all the same “crap” you will have to take when our government takes over all of health care. Unfortunately, the rest of us who know better will be forced to eat those same rank smelling sandwiches right along with you.
What is your point? The Repbublican majority managed to black out CSPAN when they debated and passed the Prescription addition to Medicare that is essentially a $1.2 million nightmare that is too complicated to figure out, offers no cost controls (the gov’t can’t negotiate against the drug companies), and is funded 100% deficit spending. How long can Medicare last when you add that kind of burden without identifying ways to fund it? It also goes 100% counter to what the conservative Kool-Aid drinkers supposedly stand for. Everyone on FOX and related outlets talk about what the big bad Obama is going to do…Well the Republicans DID this. BTW…Don’t you think the whole thing with using the Pres’ middle name is getting over done? Grow up.
I invite you to read Alan Greenspan’s book. He goes into specific detail on how Clinton decided to wait on pushing for things he promised in getting elected in favor of attacking the deficit imediately. It’s not me saying it. It’s the Fed Chairman himself. Bubba is the one President who actually call for address a joint session of congress to specifically talk about the deficit. He proposed and Congress/Senate passed (with Repbublican help) a new tax that went only to the deficit. Deficit has been a huge Democrat talking point for a number of years. You may recall Mondale lost his election to Reagan partly due to his reliance on the deficit as an issue while the Great Communicator stayed away from something so complicated and “not important to most Americans.”
Democrat David: Jimmy Carter’s term was a mess; Reagan cleaned it up and Clinton rode his coat tails.
I just love the revisionist history that lies at the core of the liberal thought process.
First of all, conservatives hated the prescription drug plan passed during the Bush presidency. Ironically, I believe it actually came in under budget, which might be due to a competitive element involving private entities providers. Nonethless, conservatives are still very wary of the program.
On Ronald Wilson Reagan, his tax policy resulted in a doubling of federal tax revenue with a drastic reduction in tax rates. Yes, for all you liberals out there, lower rates actually increase revenue due to less punishment on wealth generating activities. Higher tax rates, which can also be referred to as punishment for economic activity, normally have the exact opposite effect in the long-run.
It’s not about “growing up” or hate mongers or right wingers….it’s about simple economics and human nature. Until we learn that (and take a little look at history along the way), we will never get out of this mess. Some good old fashioned, freedom loving action driven by rugged individualism and self-reliance will serve us all very well.
Medicare and Social Security are great ideas in that it takes care of our elderly and less fortunate. However, we have to ask ourselves a key question….to what end? Are we really willing to punish all attempts at success, allow our government to spend our nation into oblivion and ruin the greatest economy the world has ever known? It is certainly starting to look that way.
Well you called George – “W” well how about Hussien! It is his name isnt it.
It was Obama who promised us 8 different times on TV it would be debated on CSPAN. Well….. I wonder If Bush was so stupid to do such a thing would we ever hear the end of it from the likes of guys like you dude. I remember when dems made George SR raise taxes. Remember “Read my lips” well…. WHERE IS THE CSPAN DEBATE!
I hear crickets dude……
Liberals can only argue with an factless emotional outburst of ridicule.
Good point Jim S. America’s health care should be put back in the hands of Americans, not employers, Governments or unions.
Americans should be able to shop for their own health care plan and their own providers in a free market with transparent pricing and provider evaluations, just the same way they they purchase auto insurance, cell phone plans, banking services, investment plans, mortgages or a car.
Competition coupled with savvy consumers are powerful tools in reducing health care costs.
Way to go, Bill. I am amazed that this comes down to now we have a person upset that President Obama’s middle name is being used. As you said, it is his name. So many others have been referred by all their names, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, George W Bush, Richard Milhouse Nixon, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, William Howard Taft, Uslysses S Grant. It is one office where it seems to be tradition to use one’s middle name, or initial.
It was also Candidate Obama who promised the transparency in negotiations, over and over and over. Unfortunately so many beleived these lies and voted for this change. Once you have voted for it and that person has won, you are stuck with it for 4 years. Lies and all. And the transparency was nothing more than a lie to get elected. There will be no transparency and no CSPAN coverage. We need a media who reports on what is acutally going on, instead of what we have now with the big networks, nothing more than Entertainment Tonight! May we find another Ronald Reagan in this next presidential election cycle to get us out of this mess before the country is destroyed!
AMEN TO TX LADY…..WE ARE STUCK FOR 3 YEARS AND HIS POLL #’S ARE DECREASING. I AM NOT A RACIST BUT I BELIEVE DUE TO HIS RACE, HE GOT ELECTED!!!
I REALLY WANTED HIS PROMISES TO COME THRU FOR THE NATION BUT KNEW THEY WOULD NOT. I COULD NOT HAVE VOTED FOR HIM.. WHERE’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE? WHERE DID HE GET ALL HIS MONEY WHEN HE WORKED FOR PRO-BONO? IS HE MUSLIM?
SO MANY QUESTIONS THAT WE DO NOT HAVE ANSWERS FOR!!!!!!!!!
I think Outraged and Jim S. have nailed it. Competition in a free enterprise system has and will always maximize efficiency and innovation.
Striving for market share and profit are the motives that make it all happen rather than the evils they have been potrayed as.
It could not be more obvious that Obama and his fellow liberals and progressives (Democrats and Republicans alike) are loath at the notion that individuals can and should take care of themselves. If that were to be the overriding notion of the electorate, though, there source of power would be gone in a heartbeat.
When a politician spews rhetoric about what they are going to do for us, one can bet the rent it is really what they are going to do to us.
An uninformed and dependent elecorate is just what the doctor ordered for liberals. The love crisis even if they have to create or fabricate them since they strive for everyone to look to them – the elites and central planners – to make it all better.
Rugged individualism? Self-reliance? Entrepreneurial spirit? Truly caring for our fellow man and the less fortunate without involving the government? They hate these notions since it means one very dangerous thing: the government is not any more necessary to us than as stated in the Constitution. Oh the horror!
I agree with TX Lady on her last post. The 3 24hr cable news networks have become reality TV for news with Fox leading the charge.
So, I’m just curious if anyone here was opposed to a lot of Bush’s legislations that he made law? Notably, the Patriot
Act which was a good thing for it’s intended uses but this also applies to you and I. Any president from then on can name ANYONE an enemy combatent.
And that simply makes you one just because the president says so. This
applies to you and I.
He also suspended Habeas Corpus of all things back in 2006
and then was detaining American citizens because they did not agree with the
war in Iraq.
He has shown an outright hostility to freedom of speech. In the name of combating “indecency,” the FCC under Bush has raised its punitive fines to outrageous new levels, wasted money on an “investigation” of Janet Jackson’s breast during the super bowl, and pressured Clear Channel to drop the Howard Stern Show. Bush has applied and maintained draconian restrictions on the press in Iraq, even forbidding the photography of flag-draped caskets returning home.
As a result of Bush’s policies, the government has even attacked freedom of assembly, creating “free speech zones” and keeping war protesters away when Bush appears on camera. This also happend at the RNC National Convention in 2008 where dozens of people were just sitting around and were arrested for “causing a disturbance”.
I’ll admit that I’m seeing some similarities between Bush’s and Obama’s policies (although a bit different) but, c’mon….lets be “Fair & Balanced” here.
OK, LET’S BE FAIR:
TODAY SHOW REPORTED 1-7-10 THAT THE TERRORIST THAT WERE DEPORTED TO THEIR OWN COUNTRIES FROM GITMO ARE NOW INVOLVED IN TERRORIST ACTIVIES AGAIN!
SO, WHICH PREZ CLOSED GITMO????????
SINCE THE SUBJECT WAS CHANGED, LET’S CHANGE IT AGAIN!
Come one, Allan, get real. Based on your post, one would think innocent men, women and children are being dragged from their beds and thrown into gulags without any hope of due process.
The bottom line is I am not worried about Johnny Law or the feds busting into my home and cracking heads. That is as long as I’m not talking to or fraternizing with terrorists or somehow running afoul of the law.
I think if Bush did anything right it was to make every attempt to keep the U.S. safe. We can debate the wars, the Patriot Act and other issues, but it stands to reason he knew we were at war and tried to fight one. He dilly dallied for far too long in Iraq. He kicked in teeth of the Taliban, but lost focus due to a lack of commitment to really taking care of the situation in Iraq.
He obviously made mistakes, but at least he did not apologize for the efforts of his own country. The U.S. is not an empire, but rather tries to do the right thing and help others around the world by military, humanitarian and financial means.
And while we’re on Bush, many conservatives were not happy with many of his policies. He effectively cut taxes, which helped generate economic growth and federal tax revenues. However, he went along with deficit spending done by Congress while under the control of both parties.
However, I think he was a good man. He withstood relentless, nasty and personal attacks from the opposition (Democrats and the press). Believe it or not, conservatives were also in opposition to many of his policies as stated above. I think, though, he was able to maintain class through it all. You might disagree, but this is one man’s opinion.
Amen Buckeye! The press hounded Bush relentlessly the last 4 years,I doubt if many could have stood the pressure. Mr. Obama is treated with kid gloves and any criticism the president or his administration is called racism. When it was Bush, it was justifiable outrage, but now it’s that we must all be racists.
Buckeye, I am being real. Innocent men, women and children are not being dragged from their beds and thrown into gulags without any hope of due process. At least for right now and most likely will not happen for a while or not at all. But it very well can happen and it is perfectly legal to do so right now. All implemented by Bush.
Now, you mention “you’re not worried about Johnny Law or the feds busting into my home and cracking heads. That is as long as I’m not talking to or fraternizing with terrorists or somehow running afoul of the law.”
You shouldn’t be worried about it but appauled that we are not as protected under our Constitution as we have been in the past.
TX Lady – The whole thing about if you did’t agree with Obama was reported on but blown way out of proportion by Fox.
There are quite a few things that I disagree with Obama on. It doesn’t make myself or anyone a racist.
Oh, and during the last years Bush was in office, Fox was still in love with Bush.
Thanks, Joe, for weighing in. I agree that Allan is way over the top in his mortal fear of the Patriot Act.
There are certainly differing views on how it can be used by law enforcement. However, there are many reasonable people who agree it was enacted to help identify and combat terrorist activities and has been used accordingly.
Most of us are not quaking in fear that our phone is being tapped when we call Auntie Em. Even though it has been in effect for years, we have certainly not heard horror stories about senseless rights violations of innocent civilians as suggested by Allan.
If rights violations had been occurring, then the press would have been screaming from the rooftops with yet another opportunity to rip into Bush. Let’s not forget, too, that the Patriot Act was passed overwhelmingly by both parties. Just like both parties (as well as previous administrations) agreed on weapons of mass destruction and authorized the war in Iraq.
It’s like this, Allan. If I fraternize with seedy individuals, especially people suspected of having terrorist ties, then I should not get all worked up if I’m in the cross hairs of the authorities. Too bad, so sad.
I also think it is rather ironic that those supporting liberal / progressive polices are so concerned about the Patriot Act. Is there anything more oppressive than liberal / progressive policies? Oppressive confiscatory tax polices? Job-killing regulation? Political correctness? Limits on free speech? Gun control?
And for the record, the views of “right wingers” or conservatives are based on freedom and liberty. Left wingers are all about central command, government control and oppression. All of the notorious dictators and ruthless facists (Hitler, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hussein, Chavez, Jong-il to name a few) were / are leftists. So all you so-called compassionate liberals out there, face the facts and get over it.
I agree with Allen on how the Patriot Act is a shame. How many terrorists were caught with the Patriot Act? How many plots were stopped because of it?
That might very well be something we will never know. And probably something we do not need to know.
The fact we have not had additional successful attacks since 9/11 might suggest it has worked. Or the fact that we took the fight to the terrorists on their turf might be another reason.
I, personally, do not need a blow by blow update on all the gory details of military and intelligence operations. Actually, I think many of these things should be kept secret.
Admittedly, I get very annoyed at this penchant we now have to talk in great detail about military operations, especially our plans and strategy for the future. Wouldn’t military operations have a better chance of success if we avoid telegraphing our plays?
If the Patriot Act has, in fact, been less effective than planned, then it might stand to reason it could have been caused by leaking of its details by liberals and their friends in the press. I think the enemy could take counter measures if they know our surveillance strategy.
And the reason Gitmo is being closed isn’t because it is ineffective. It has proven to be a very well-run institution for keeping terrorists off the streets and battlefield (that is as long as our weak leaders don’t release them back to terroist backing governments). It is being closed since it is supposedly bad for our image.
It appears to me that virtually all of the bad image stems from baseless and fabricated accounts of mistreatment of those in custody. Liberals were so bent on spewing hatred for Bush and winning an election that they lied about Gitmo. Now we have a real dilemma on our hands.
And, by the way, how’s that Obama thing working out for those of you who are so horrified about Gitmo? We have and will continue to release these animals or try them in our US criminal courts or move them to prison facilities on our soil.
And we’re still not sure if Obama will follow through with his pledge to the left and our enemies to close Gitmo. Is anyone really surprised, though, that he seems to have once again uttered words with a forked tongue? And we thought Bill Clinton took politics and slickness to new heights. Well, I think the chosen one is in a league all his own in that regard.
Whenever I think about the Patriot Act, I think back to the Ben Franklin quote “those who choose safety over freedom deserve neither”.
You want 100% safety, declare martial law. I rather not have the Patriot Act, and have more of my freedoms back.
I do find it funny that people that are against the healthcare bill (which I am hard core against) are saying its a grab for power by the government, but somehow do not see the Patriot Act as a similer grab for power.
I don’t disagree with you one bit relative to your thoughts, which were stated so well by Ben Franklin.
My only point is that I am not buying into the hysteria over the Patriot Act. No one has provide what I believe an accurate account of the liberties our citizens have sacrificed in the name of safety and security.
Can my phone be tapped for any reason? Can my financial records be monitored and confiscated for any reason? I don’t have reason to believe the answer to either one of these questions is “yes.” I’m all ears, though, if someone can convince me to the contrary.
Whether it is Gitmo, health care or the Patriot Act, liberals and progressives appear bent on creating crisis or shamelessly taking advantage of legitimate problems in order to advance their agenda. Even when we have a real problem, they seem to always propose “solutions” that will likely only exacerbate the problem.
What I am thoroughly convinced of is liberals / progressives will never let reality, truth or the facts get in the way of really taking away our freedom so we can let them (the elites, those purporting to do things for us via the government, the supposed do-gooders) direct our lives. We are bombarded by pathetic falsehoods and revisionist history almost daily in their tireless effort to dupe us into letting it happen.
Another thing I’m sure about is once government programs are in place we will never get rid of them regardless of how miserably they fail. The thought of taking care of our less fortunate and elderly is a wonderful idea that makes many of feel very good about ourselves.
However, are we willing to bankrupt the country and ruin it for our kids in the process? It appears we are very willing.
It stands to reason that we have already proven government is not the answer. They have made promises to the American people that we simply cannot keep. We have more and more people on the receiving end of government “assistance” with fewer and fewer of us paying the freight. And we think Madoff ran a big ticket Ponzi scheme? He’s got nothing on the clowns we keep sending back to Washington DC.
http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/the_end_of_america/
Here ya go.
I think most of you are missing the point. The point I’m trying to make is regarding our freedoms. After the Bush policies and 9-11 I never gave it a second thought. That is until I saw this documentary and seeing where Obama is going with some of his policies. As hard as it is for me to admit.
Look at history and look what Bush implemented and see where our future government is going.
It’s not only the Patriot Act it’s also the Military Commission Act that was passed in 2006. That’s scary!
The thing here I don’t understand is why is it ok for Bush to do what he did and not ok for Obama? They are both messed up.
I’m sorry, Allan. I’m not seeing it and not buying it. I think the documentary is full of hype. Like Bush or not, I have a hard time with anyone who actually thinks there is a remote similarity between Bush and Hitler.
We are going to have to agree to disagree.
Hype??? What hype? This happend! So again, you don’t mind if Bush tramples on our rights for what was deemed as a good cause, but if Obama does it he’s Hitler?
This does not make sense. By the way, Obama has not reinstate Habeus Corpus or undon any of the legislation Bush put in effect either. So, that means Obama or anyone in the future can abuse their power agains ANY american citizen and get away with it.
I get your point, Allan. I simply don’t see the evidence to support your intense concern with the Patriot Act or contention that Bush trampled on rights.
A documentary does not a position make. One man’s damning evidence can be another man’s propaganda. I’m in the latter category on this one relative to the documentary. I simply view it as hype and am not buying into the hysteria. An Inconvenient Truth comes to mind.
I respect your concern, but, again, let’s just agree to disagree.
Really? So you never hear of other advocay groups here in America that were spyed on? And when the government found out they were of no threat at all they still continued to spy on them even further? How about last year when the government was dropping in on our serviceman overseas phone calls? What was with that?
How about some of the journalist that were mentioned that were arrested, detained and then let go with no charges filed? How about that serviceman who faught in Vietnam, served our country honorably then when he spoke out about the war in Iraq he (not to mention other journalists) ended up on the TSA terror watchlist. Not only him, but his whole entire family. Really, his family too????? I know of another list that was used in 1930’s Germany.
Then the other interviews with former government employees? It’s all just made up? All books and documentaries that you do not agree with are just hype? Well I guess that goes with Dick Morris, Glen Beck, Mark Levin and the rest of them. It’s just all hype with no facts. Do you see where I’m going?
It’s not only the Patriot Act, it’s also the Military Commissions Act of 2006 which suspends Habeus Corpus. That was a slap in the face to our founding fathers.
So basically what you are telling me and the folks reading this is that you are ok with our freedoms being infringed on by Bush regarding the war on terror and the war in Iraq but, not Obama and what he’s doing with Health Care?
The health care deal isn’t really that intrusive. A bit unconstitutional yes, but not nearly as intrusive as what Bush has implemented.
You need to open your mind a bit more.
Did you see the whole documentary? This is just one that I’ve the few that I’ve seen.
What I think, Allan, is you need to let it go, man. I don’t agree…plain and simple.
Don’t forget, too, that this was not just Bush. I realize it is still chic to hammer the guy, but there was a body 535 who overwhelmingly supported the Patriot Act and all of these other supposed heinous matters you reference. And many of them are still in office. Bush is gone, Allan….completely out of power.
By the way, is “a bit unconsitutional” the same as being a little bit pregnant. Just curious.
Exactly! It was ok for the previous administration to infringe on our rights but not this one.
Maybe because he’s a Democrat?
Belive me, I don’t mind that we have the Patriot Act. We don’t use the intelligence it supplies anyways. I’m just pointing out the difference of what the previous administration did and what this current administration is doing with health care. Both aren’t good but the Conservative/Republican base does not acknowlege the two. Same as you.
Care to comment on the Military Commissions Act of 2006 where you and I can be named as an enemy combatent just because the president says we are? No one in the future may even exercies their power to use it. But it’s there and they very well could. So, be careful of who’s in office at the time and if you decide to speak out against the government.
Keep in mind the person who wrote the book and made the documentary was during Bush’s last term in office so, there was nothing political she could have gotten from it.
The only thing I’m finding unconstitutional with the Health Bills is that’s mandated that everyone purchase the insurance and how it will tax others to pay for it.
The policy recsisions, pre-existing condition exclusions and non-profits is what I’m happy with.
So, yeah, it’s a BIT unconstitutional.
Once again, Allan, let’s agree to disagree. Let it go, dude.
And I will sleep easy tonight with complete confidence I will not be named an enemy combatant and yanked from my bed. It’s OK if you want to sleep with one eye open, but I will choose not to.
Sweet!
Then LET’S GO HEALH CARE. (With a Public Option).
Ciao.
You can not believe what you say? There is a thing called logic and reason.
Patriot act kept you safe for the last eight years from muslim kids flying to the US with a bomb in his underwear and his dad calling the state department who put him on the wrong list.
I have no problem with anyone who can justify why they have suspissions of someone who might want to kill 3000 people in airplanes or someone who is calling pakistan everynight to discuss Jihad.
Come on man!
I am alot more scared of the white house establishing and requesting liberals to report anyone who disagrees with their desire for Government controled healthcare. They had and still do as far as we know have a list of emails with IP addresses on anyone who disagrees with their position. I guess I can expect a worm virus from the government someday soon.
That scares me more than Bush actually protecting us.
Allan, you got to be kidden dude!
Are you looking to have someone pay for your healthcare? Are you looking to pay for someone elses?
The government is “We the People”
You are an idiot Allan
The only “rights” that appear to have been violated appear to be overseas terrorists. Name one citizen who had there rights violated by GW. Other than in the airport where I am willing to sacrifice a little personal dignity for safety. Name one, troll. Whose phone was tapped, who was placed in jail without access to the courts? Where were all of these citizen rights violated?
Allen is an idiot, surveys of citizens of the U.S. agree.
i am just happy that Allan and Buckeye both got off work Friday at 4:30 PM. Who knows how long that snoozefest conversation about the Patriot Act would have lasted if they weren’t on the clock.
Admittedly, probably not very interesting or much of a conversation in the grand scheme of things. Not sure, then, why you devoted your obviously invaluable time to read it. Just curious.
Who says I was on the clock anyway?
James Yee – Army Chaplin assigned to GITMO spoke out against the treatment that the detainees were getting. He had enrolled in a masters program and was doing research on Syria and Islam. When he was found in possesion of articles that were printed off the internet, he was charged with sedition, aiding the enemy, spying, espionage and failure to obey a general order; he faced a possible death sentence. And yet no evidence against him was ever presented. In 2004 all the criminal charges were dropped. Yee spent 76 days in solitary confinement in a U.S. Navy brig in Charleston, S.C., before being charged. This is in violation of the 6th amendment of the US constitution.
Maher Arar – a telecommunications engineer with dual Syrian and Canadian citizenship who resides in Canada. Arar was detained during a layover at John F. Kennedy International Airport in September 2002 on his way home to Canada from a family vacation in Tunis. He was held in solitary confinement in the United States for nearly two weeks, questioned, and denied meaningful access to a lawyer. The US government suspected him of being a member of Al Qaeda and deported him, not to Canada, his current home, but to his native Syria, even though its government is known to use torture. He was detained in Syria for almost a year, during which time he was tortured, according to the findings of the Arar Commission, until his release to Canada. This is in violation of the 6th amendment of the US constitution.
Bilal Hussein – Associated Press photojournalist based in Fallujah, Iraq, won the 2005 Pulitzer Prize for Breaking News Photography. Hussein had been detained by U.S. forces, suspected of aiding insurgents in Iraq. He faced charges in the Iraqi Central Court based on scrutiny over the circumstances of his photos and evidence supplied by the U.S. military, which were directed by be ceased. Basically, he took photos of dead children that were killed by American fire and reporting it.
On September 17, 2006, it was reported that Hussein has been imprisoned by the United States military since April 2006 without publicly known charges or hearings for 2 years. All charges were dropped and Hussein was free to go. This was in violation of amendment 6 of the US Constitution and in disregard to the Geneva Conventions.
Josh Wolf – an American journalist who was jailed by a Federal district court on August 1, 2006 for refusing to turn over a collection of videotapes he recorded during a July 2005 demonstration in San Francisco, California. Wolf served 226 days in prison at the Federal Correctional Institution, Dublin, California, longer than any other journalist in U.S. history has served for protecting source materials. He eventually was released and charges dropped. This is restricting the free press and in line with violation for the 1st amendment to the US Constitution.
Amy Goodman – reporter for Democracy Now was arrested and detained while covering the protests during the RNC Convention in St. Paul, MN in 2008. She was booked, detained and released with no charges. This violates the right to assembly and free press under the US Constitution.
So, there are 5 people who’s rights have been violated under W. Not to mention David Antoon who was a decorated vet who served in Vietnam. He and his whole family ended up on the TSA watch list after he publicaly spoke out against the war in Iraq. Really? His whole family???? What does this echo?
David Zirin – sports writer and activist against the death penalty. Undercover spy from Homeland Security sat in the meetings for a campaign to end the death penalty. Well within David and other activists rights and no violence. Yet still after it was determined that this group was not a threat, they were still spied on. It makes you think where all your tax money goes for the Homeland Security Office.
Try looking up H.R.1955 Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007. It was so loosely worded that it made any assembly that was protesting against the government illegal. It almost passed and had it did, the Tea Party peeps would have all been thrown in jail.
Try looking up the Signing Statements that Bush signed durring his presidency. 110 of them. The most out of every president. President Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws enacted since he took office, asserting that he has the power to set aside any statute passed by Congress when it conflicts with his interpretation of the Constitution.
Would you like to dispute any of these facts?
I was mostly curious if you would go this far back to make sure you had the last word on this and any other posting. Your vulgar and idiotic response to a reasonable posting is an indication you aren’t the smartest kid on your block or any other. By the way, this is an opinion posting site, not a doctoral thesis. Grow up a little in your vulgar responses. It’s childish and if you are actually in the insurance industry, a bit embarrasing to those of us who actually are professional in our demeanor. Also, study history a little, you might understand my reponse. Gee Allen, is your mommy calling you? Now, post again, I don’t have to prove my superiority by posting answers to every response.
Oh, yes you do or you wouldn’t be coming back here on this older post. Just like me:)
Yes, these post are for opinions or debate. But if one has an opinion, it should come from some sort of fact and base that opion from that fact or facts. Which, I lay down plenty. You??????
My persistance in responding to most of the verbal vomit coming out of these posts is the very reason I do so. I’m able to stand on my own two feet and think for myself and recieve credible information that backs it up. Unlike the likes of you and the others on here who just repeat what everyone else says. It’s like a bandwagon. I guess that’s why you refer to yourself as “nobody important.”
You said it yourself….you didn’t care about the facts. Now who sounds like the smarter kid on the block?
Oh, by the way, how would I be getting these headlines each day from Insurance Journal if I wasn’t in the business? Super Genius.
Sorry Allen, I don’t care to respond to your “facts,” true or not. I could spend time researching the illegal acts of any number of well loved Presidents in wartime, Wilson, FDR, Lincoln, but who cares. You may have time to spend hours a day trolling for “fact” on moveon.org or other sites, I don’t. I mearly state my opinions. By the way, I have no sympathy for any reporter. They seem to think that because of the freedom of the press that they give up their citizenship when they become a reporter. If only.
1.None of them were illegal acts.
2. I’ve never been on or seen moveon.org.
3. Opionions are like a$$holes. Everyone has one.
4. Your quote ” By the way, I have no sympathy for any reporter. They seem to think that because of the freedom of the press that they give up their citizenship when they become a reporter.” WTF??? Help me make sense of this?
5. You don’t care about the facts true or not? Then I’m sorry to say you are just f*cking stupid!
6. Are you able to find the bathroom so you don’t crap yourself?
Allen, who cares what you think? Isn’t that what you are telling me, I’m not entitled to an opinion without proof? Are you the boss here? Grow up child and learn that it’s ok for us to disagree without your childish vulgar and paranoid taunts. You are not smarter or better informed, live with it.
I forgot to include this. Let me write this down now Allen. I’m not allowed to state my opinion without proving it to your satisfaction with posts from other sources. This must satisfy you as the king of the internet or I must bow to your superior intelligence and judgment. Right. To pararphrase your posts, you are an arrogant A$$.
No, no. Please keep posting your ignorant opions that do not have any merit. It makes you look stupid and is entertaining picking you apart as you what say is not in the realm of reality and I’ve backed it up. So far, all you’ve done is given me is more opions after I’ve supplied facts. The least you could do is prove me wrong to support what you say is credible.
You’ve got NOTHING! A$$ clown.
I’m having a great time laughing at your posts Allan. In well over 30 years in the business I have seen idiots like you come and go. You really are a joke. Nothing to see. Move along now.
You’re laughing at factual subject matter? Um, ok, you are a bit wierd.
Oh, by the way, the only thing you’ve said so far that has been accurate is that you’ve been in the biz longer. You old fart.
If that’s the only fact I have posted I’m one up on you. I don’t really care about this line, but I just want to see if you will keep trying to get the last word on every posting. Blah blah blah
Everyone should remember that you cannot argue with a liberal without them eventually turning to a factless emotional outburst of ridicule. It is a basic tenate of the Saul Alinski approach to being a liberal radical, (lol) or idiot I am not sure which.
Just remember try not to argue with an idiot for some will not know the difference. I think this was one of Poor Richards quotes. (Ben Franklin) or should have been.
But it’s so much fun Sarah. They take themselves so seriously and they are so wrong about almost everything.
Oh, exactly. If no one agrees with you, then your automatically wrong and are liberal.
Now, that’s some logic.
Allan, I know its hard for you stay on subject and mention any facts that are relevant to any discussion. But, hey you can not help it, you are a Liberal. You just have to admit it, Then you can realize that you are incapable of any level of reason or accountability and just blame conservatives for everthing bad that happens.
Right, because you know me so well.
You’re correct though, the ultra right wing conservatives poop doesn’t stink. They are flawless.
I’m curious, do you ever process any thought before typing? Or, does it just come naturally for you rush in and post you’re thoughtless remarks?
If you’ve read any of what I’ve written, you would have noticed that I’m liberal in some areas and conservative in others. Yes, maybe I do lean a little to the liberal side of things, but there are plenty things conservative I agree with.
The main thing I can’t stand is stupid people. Both conservative and liberal.