Sorry clergyman, sexual assault is no accident. “Oops, I accidentally raped this woman!” Nope, doesn’t happen that way. You assaulted her, you should pay – not State Farm.
Wait… this wasn’t a Catholic? You mean Methodist clergy can commit sex crimes too?
Of course, if this was a Catholic priest there wouldn’t even be a trial, he’d just be guilty and there’s be a few million dollar payout instead of a suspended sentance for probation.
and now we see him all over trying to get his wife elected, why can’t people remember what he did…what a lier he was…I didn’t have sex with her, oh ya sure Bill..
The Church has (recently) become quite open about child molestation cases… the percentage is rather low.
I’ve personally never known a priest who molested (or was accused of molesting) a child… but I do know, personally, of many lay-people in Catholic schools and teachers at public shchools that have slept with students (although many have gone non-reported).
What people need to realize is the Catholic Church is, for lack of a better term, the largest corporation in the world. If you’re looking to sue someone and make a mint, find something to sue The Church over and back up the Brinks truck.
They took my money so they should pay to defend me?? eventhough I pled guilty and did two years probation???
I cannot believe this idiot is preaching to anyone.
Golly gee Adrian, non-existent deities? I didn’t know that Methodists were polytheists. As for atheism, tell us please, having looked everywhere you can’t find God? Actually, you could not have looked everywhere, could you? Therefore, atheism is ridiculous, not theism.
Adrian – I agree that intentional acts are not covered by any form of liability policy that I know of and further that there is no way sexual assault is anything other than an intentional act.
The only issue I have with your comment is the remark about “hiding behing imaginary deities”. God (presumably the imaginary deity you refer to) has said in His Word (the Bible) not once, but twice, (Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1) “The fool has said in his heart there is no God” so where does that put you? You may want to rethink your comment.
Believer, Adrian will not be swayed by arguments from Scripture without divine intervention. He would just dismiss the Bible out of hand (probably having never read it). I was wondering what he would say to my implication that atheism is irrational, given that before one can declare that someone does not exist, when billions of people have and do insist exists, one must have looked for Him everywhere with certainty that He has not hidden Himself from him.
Since he probably hasn’t looked at the bottom of the ocean and certainly hasn’t looked on Io, and everywhere in between and beyond, and cannot be sure that God has not hidden Himself, he cannot rationally assert atheism. So he clams up.
He is content to feel superior to the cretin who was the subject of this news item, while leaving off the consideration of Pol Pot and other atheist notables.
Alright people, let the religion thing go. Adrian is allowed his beliefs just like you are allowed to believe in yours. Deal with it, move on and quit being so thin skinned. For the record Adrian, I agree with you.
As for the judge, great ruling. This pastor is a moron is he thinks sexual assult is not an intentional act. I am surprised that looney Kim David isn’t on here SCREAMING that state farm screwed this pastor out of coverage because of “hidden exclusions” in the policy, re: intentional acts.
Up until now, members of other religions had the decency to keep their mouths shut about sexual encounters with religious leaders. As a Catholic, I find it repugnant that so many people have said absolutely nothing about alleged abuse for decades. Suddenly, when the almighty smell of money came into play, they start with their pathetic public confessions. You have to know that the Catholic church doesn’t have a corner on the promiscuity market.
Yes he’s reformed. He used to molest Methodists, but now he’s going after non-denominational Protestants.
What sort of an attorney would take a case like this?
I’m sure that’s true, but how many hundreds of thousands of teachers are there vs the number of priests in America?
It is definitely true that the Catholic Church does not have the only molesters out there.
No Mary, Adrian started the attacks on religion for no reason. I am not a religious person, but just because I’m not is no reason for me to ridicule someone else’s beliefs. After all, none of us know who in reality is right. Some claim to, but they won’t know until its too late to post us and let us know for sure.
The article doesn’t say whether the church purchased separate coverage for abuse. It seems that would be a key issue in the lawsuit. If they don’t have it, State Farm should NOT pay.
And he should not be preaching anymore. Period.
If he had not admitted his ‘crime’ in criminal court State Farm would lack evidence to deny defense obligations. Sounds like the same attorney that represented him in the criminal aspect of this matter is representing him for the coverage aspect. He can probably secure compensation for the legal bills from the malpractice carrier for his attorney.
As opposed to our current president who hasn’t lied about anything while in office? Politician and liar are redundant.
Haven’t you figured that out yet?
My favorite bumper sticker is the the one that says “When Clinton Lied No One Died.”
Not that I condone Clinton’s actions while in office.
You can’t argue that slogan with the Bush haters. To them nothing else matters but their hate. I like to refer to them as yellow backed Democrats. Nice ring to it.
Now don’t go comparing apples to oranges. The Catholic church was sued for covering up the sexual misconducts of their priests and by so doing allowed the continued commission of those acts. In this case, this man is trying to have someone else pay for his deliberate misdeeds….no cover up by the church and once his misdeeds came to light, there were no additional, continued criminal acts. and if you listen to his comments about State Farm not being there when he needed them, you’ll recognize that he doesn’t understand insurance and the moral hazard he is trying to perpetrate. What a scumbag! The court got this right; but it is too bad for the woman because she won’t collect a nickle from him and now that State Farm is out of the picture, there is no one else with deep pockets.
81 Dems voted to go to war. John Kerry and Bill’s ol’ lade et al were all on board. Even Silky Pony Boy voted for it. Now it’s “Bush lied.” I don’t get it.
12 years of catholic education, 4 years o college, 50 years of searching, that’s my background. The Bible is based on several thousands of years of oral tradition for the old testament and a couple of centuries for the new testament. Not a word was written until the common era and in 325 AD, MEN decided what text to include and what to throw out. Now the coptic texts are coming back, as in the Da Vinci Code and the Gospel according to Judas. The point is that none of this is PROVEN but rather is faith based. A lack of proof does not mean that there isn’t a deity anymore than a lack of proof means that there is. What it probably does mean is that we just don’t know enough about a deity to be able to discern one. To paraphrase Pliny the Elder, if the deity is all powerful, all knowing, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, then the deity is unlike anything mankind has ever experienced or seen, how then can mankind understand, let alone know, what the deity is or know when or where to find it? I still search but I do know this, my mother warned me about quoting scripture and you should take heed: even the devil in your bible quoted scripture. It doesn’t support your position anymore than the Quran supports bin Laden…..
What? Were WMD found in Iraq? and Bin Laden didn’t sleep with Sadam? And Al Gonzalez didn’t fire attorneys for not prosecuting Dubya’s “enemies” or politicize the AG’s office? To say that none of these falsehoods amounts to a lie, is an even greater lie!
So there were no WMDs in Iraq at any time, terrorists never were in Iraq and the AG’s office has never been political, ever. Who is lying here? Just quote the liberal talking points and keep your head in the sand. I personally will let history do the talking. I don’t care why we are in Iraq now, we broke it and we better not leave before it’s fixed. If we do history will judge us all very poorly. You can see this as a liberal or in terms of reality. They aren’t the same thing.
Of course, non of this line of posts has anything to do with the subject as usual. Typical Friday afternoon baloney, including my end of the posts. I am way too busy to keep posting so goodbye for now.
> The Bible is based on several thousands of years of oral tradition for the old testament and a couple of centuries for the new testament. Not a word was written until the common era and in 325 AD, MEN decided what text to include and what to throw out.
Wow SG, that’s basically all wrong. (When did AD change to CE?) First, the Bible certainly was written down during the OT era. There are instances of prophets being told to write, and copies of the Scriptures are mentioned. The colophons (“these are the generations…”) in Genesis are in fact clear evidence that Genesis was a compilation of written documents. Plus, at the Council of Nicea THE CHURCH, represented by her bishops in council, canonized the Holy Scripture. However, Papias’s (unofficial) 1st century canon was essentially the same books give or take. If the Holy Spirit was guiding the undivided Church, maybe He was able to lead her to decide which books should have been included in the canon.
> Now the coptic texts are coming back, as in the Da Vinci Code and the Gospel according to Judas.
(I think that by “Coptic” you meant Gnostic.) Actually, only pagans, gnostics, ignoramuses and theological “liberals” give these Gnostic texts any credibility.
>The point is that none of this is PROVEN but rather is faith based.
What I have said above is factual beyond dispute.
>A lack of proof does not mean that there isn’t a deity anymore than a lack of proof means that there is. What it probably does mean is that we just don’t know enough about a deity to be able to discern one.
Hmmm… so men with no knowledge of God invented all kinds of things about a God they had no knowledge of. Not bloody likely. Maybe, just maybe, God was able to speak to His creatures and tell them what to write down. At least, that’s what billions of Christians believe and have believed.
>To paraphrase Pliny the Elder, if the deity is all powerful, all knowing, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, then the deity is unlike anything mankind has ever experienced or seen, how then can mankind understand, let alone know, what the deity is or know when or where to find it?
The aspects of His being that you mention are incommunicable. We can’t even begin to fathom what it means to possess these faculties and abilities. But we readily understand God’s communicable qualities likelove, patience, kindness, authority, mercy, justice/righteousness, friendship, jealousy for His property etc because, being made in His image means (among other things) possessing these qualities ourselves.
>I still search but I do know this, my mother warned me about quoting scripture and you should take heed: even the devil in your bible quoted scripture. It doesn’t support your position anymore than the Quran supports bin Laden…..
But the Koran does support bin Laden, because it tells Muslims repeatedly to kill infidels who will not convert or pay tribute to the caliphate. bin Laden and his followers are actually being good Muslims when they kill infidels.
You have a lot to learn my friend. A word to the wise is sufficient: A comely quality in a man on a journey is humility.
Didn’t scold just said to move on and get back on topic. Nothing wrong with that. Why are your panties in a bunch Al? I think perfectly and rationally. Grow a set of balls Al.
Yes. 400 tons of enriched uranium as found and reported by the NY Times. Also sarin and mustard gas, and missiles forbidden to the Baathist regime by the terms of the cease fire agreement at the end of the first war.
>and Bin Laden didn’t sleep with Sadam?
Zarqawi and Al Qaeda were in Iraq before our invasion, as were other terrorists like Abu Nidal.
>And Al Gonzalez didn’t fire attorneys for not prosecuting Dubya’s “enemies” or politicize the AG’s office?
Not that this happened at al, but if it had, who died? And Clinton fired 93 AG’s when he took office, including those investigating Democrats like Dan Rostenkowski. They serve at the pleasure of the POTUS and can be removed for any reason or no reason.
>To say that none of these falsehoods amounts to a lie, is an even greater lie!
I have proved you wrong in each isntance. I guess now you’re going to go to dailykook.com for some ammo.
We should be asking ourselves if the accused pastor’s agent knew that he did not have the coverage needed. I am not knocking State Farm as several local agents are friends of mine. However, State Farm typically sells a commerical policy that simply does not offer the most comprehensive coverages. A local State Farm agent had me write the policy on the business of one of his CSRs because he realized his policy was cutting coverages to make the price look good. I would like to see insurance regulators require replacement forms to be completed when commercial policies are replaced – same as whole life policies. If so, then insureds couldn’t come back crying foul years later when their policy doesn’t pay a liability claim but, they loved saving money on their premium. It may even reduce our E&O premiums.
I know buetter than to comment but I will “bite”. These are just stories told verbally for generations and then finally written down/ printed yet changed to fit that persons views, prejudices, agenda, etc. until the printing press came around and the bible was mass produced with formatted but still stories were changed. Doesn’t mean that any or all of your bible is true. Can I nail you to a cross and see if you will rise in a couple of days? Pretty please?
Don’t forget you are the one egging me on. Don’t like it then STFU.
Aw shucks, thanks Mr.Obvious, just something I whipped up off the top o’ me ‘ead. Actually I just googled true Bible facts or something and came up with it. But I do have an M. Div. too.
Gee Steve, what a lame-o response. You just make bald assertions and expect people to, well, to what? You don’t bother to site any authority to help with your charges. You get a big fat F in theology class today.
To inform your ignorance, the Bible was written over the course of many centuries. It’s integrity was jealously guarded by the Old Testament scribes and the New Testament apostles and the Church. Any changes in its content would have been recognized instantly. For instance, could someone remove the 2nd Amendment from the Constitution without ANYONE noticing or protesting? Or could some judge find abortion in the Constitution with no one protesting? No. So judges try to say that the Constitution doesn’t really mean what it says, or that some vague appeal to “a penumbra of rights” conjures up the “right” to abort a child.
In the same way, the Old Testament was well known by the Hebrews since it was basically the source of their entire culture. It was their law, their history, their poetry, they sang it and recitged it to their kids and heard it read on Sabbath etc. How could it have been changed without anyone noticing?
And the New Testament was written down and copied and sent around to all the churches with alacrity. Attempts to change its contents could be easily enough exposed by simply comparing texts from one church with texts in another.
The textual differences that are found in the Bible have to do with things like spelling and copyist’s errors, none of which affect any doctrines or historical facts.
The historical incidents that I provided are inarguably facts as corroborated by the sources that I provided. I would say that the veracity of the Bible actually substantiates the sources’ accuracy rather than the other way around, given that the Bible is proved true by all of these independent and disparate sources.
So please provide us with the original texts to which you refer, where these passages all said something different than what they now say in the Bible, or on the wall at Thebes for that matter. Actually, it can’t be done so don’t bother trying. And you don’t have to STFU as you so graciously invited me to do. Feel free to seek further instruction at your convenience.
I shouldn’t, but I’ll stick in the two-cents I learned in college.
Al – the bible has changed over the years, including during the time it was oral history. That’s what oral history does, it changes. It changes because people place differnent emphasis on different aspects during the telling. It changes because people forget. It changes because someone down the line didn’t like how a particular verse went. It changes because the language changes. It also changes because beliefs change. Look at Judaism before and after the exile to Babylon. Prior to exile they believed that good or bad everything came from God. There was no belief in the Devil until after the exile when they adopted the apocolyptic views of the Zoroastrians. That’s just one example.
The written history has changed because we do not have true and faithful copies of the written histories either. The language has changed and the meaning of words changed. The vernacular of 5,000 years ago, or even 1,000 years ago, is not the same as it is now. The languages these scripts were writ in are dead. We can attempt to translate them but the translation is open to interpretation. Once you interpret something the meaning has changed.
And that’s not counting that the most widely read bible – the King James version – was politically changed to suit King James. That is a well known fact taught in most theology 101 courses. I don’t dispute that most of the events in the bible happened, I just want to shed light on the discussion.
Thanks lastbat, again a tiny voice of reason in a vast sea of chaos. Of course Al is a religious zealot almost of the christian Taliban sort so he will not listen to or recognize a word of what you have to say. He prefers to live is life with blinders and ear-muffs on.
There are hundreds of educaitonal and scholarly books that explain how the bible and its stories have changed over the centuries to fit a particular persons agenda, point of view, bias, translation issues, etc.
I am amazed of how this article concerning pastorial liability can off-spring into a discussion of the validity of the Bible. Church accounts are some of the best accounts that I have in my agency. I would think that we would want to learn from this article in order to discuss the risks with our customers and prospects.
However, I must say that Al is ‘right on’!!! The International Linguistics Center is about a mile west of my office and many of my customers are professionals that have worked there for decades. Research done in the past 20 years is showing that the Bible has changed VERY little in its message. The few changes are insignificant in nature.
Many people state that some of the stories are impossibilities. One of my cousins is a double PhD research scientist for Exxon-Mobile with 40 years experience in geo-physics. He states that it is accepted among all of the worlds leading geologist (even the atheist) that the ‘great flood’ did happen. You can argue about Noah’s story but, the flood DID happen! Geologist extracting natural gas in the Barnett Shale area where I live ‘fool’ nature to speed up the process of evolution by 50,000 years to make the formation produce natural gas now. A leading geo-physicist has recently stated that if he had a a 1,000 years and an umlimited research budget that he could show us how God created the world in six days.
Physicist Stephen Hawkings (considered the world’s smartest atheist) has recently stated that given new data that even he admits that it is improbable that the universe was created in its brillance without the help of an ‘intelligent designer’.
In short, modern linguistic techniques are proving the Bible has changed little and science is proving that even the most miraculous stories are being shown as viable – just give us some more time to figure out how God did it.
I will close by reminding everyone that Jesus said that if we don’t recognize him in this world then, he will not recognize us in the world to come.
=Al – the bible has changed over the years, including during the time it was oral history.
As noted earlier lastbat, there is evidence in Genesis —the oldest book- that its various segments were written down before they were compiled into one book. Where it says, “these are the generations of Adam,” Gen. 5:1, it is referring to the previous text – the account of Adam’s life and immediate descendents. This goes on throughout the book.
=That’s what oral history does, it changes. It changes because people place differnent emphasis on different aspects during the telling. It changes because people forget.
It was not oral history. It’s a good ruse on your part though, because you get off scott free when I ask you to produce some proof of its non-graphical basis.
=It changes because someone down the line didn’t like how a particular verse went. It changes because the language changes. It also changes because beliefs change. Look at Judaism before and after the exile to Babylon. Prior to exile they believed that good or bad everything came from God. There was no belief in the Devil until after the exile when they adopted the apocolyptic views of the Zoroastrians. That’s just one example.
That’s the first time I’ve ever heard that notion. First, as noted, Genesis is a compilation of written accounts of history as evident by certain textual clues. Second, your premise that Israel developed a providential view of good and evil is at odds even with theological liberals who invented the notion of “ethical monotheism” to square the Jews’ exilic and post-exilic plight with God’s judgment of the nation =and= continuing covenant relation with His people. So you have it exactly backwards there. And the devil appears in Genesis 3. It would have been odd for the Babylonians to have conferred Zoroastrianism on the Jews since they were not Zoroastrians.
=The written history has changed because we do not have true and faithful copies of the written histories either.
Please direct me to your sources that track significant doctrinal changes in the text, rather than merely copyists errors.
=The language has changed and the meaning of words changed. The vernacular of 5,000 years ago, or even 1,000 years ago, is not the same as it is now. The languages these scripts were writ in are dead. We can attempt to translate them but the translation is open to interpretation. Once you interpret something the meaning has changed.
The Hebrew text is remarkably unchanged, in that various textual finds all compare favorably for instance with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Since it was a written text, as opposed to your insubstantial assertions, it remained a living part of the culture. Even the changeover to the Aramaic alphabet did not change the text since it was merely a phonetic rendering of the text’s verbal sounds. Hebrew has never been a dead language, and the Church has kept knowledge of the New Testament koine Greek alive from the beginning with its millions of copies of the New Testament and its textual scholarship, regardless of changes in the secular Greek language. As for interpretations changing meaning, how do nations conduct diplomacy?
=And that’s not counting that the most widely read bible – the King James version – was politically changed to suit King James.
Perhaps you can give us several examples of these changes.
=That is a well known fact taught in most theology 101 courses. I don’t dispute that most of the events in the bible happened, I just want to shed light on the discussion.
Sorry Al, I can’t oblige. I’m not a believer in any religion so the only exposure I have to the bible is some very (and I mean VERY) casual reading over the years and some college courses taken to fill out my elective requirements. I merely spewed back my college learning. You’ll have to blame my very Christian professor for any defects in my religious education. He’s the one who told me the Zoroastrians gave the Hebrew the apocolyptic view, he’s the one that told me most theology 101 courses give warnings of political changes in the King James bible, he’s the one that told me the bible conflicts itself in so many areas because it was mostly an oral history for thousands of years and the written histories were generally recorded hundreds of years after the event at the soonest. He’s also the one that reinforced to the class that Ancient Hebrew is different from Modern Hebrew is usage, vernacular and script. So while we can, after painstaking study, read Ancient Hebrew we still have to interpret it. The same goes with Ancient Greek and Aramaic.
Despite all the doubts, contradictions and so forth put to us during class, if you caught him outside of class he was a deacon in his church and a strong believer in the bible and his salvation in Christ. He just wanted to make sure his students were able to look at the bible with a critical eye and know that it can not be held up – as itself – as a true and accurate recording of history. You can never take one source as a true and accurate recording. And that just because one section of the bible is upheld by other sources you still must check everything with multiple sources before believing it. Especially when we’re talking about things thousands of years before our time.
Last bit. Pretty much all relgious texts sound the same to me. Perused through a great number of them and y’all who have religion need to get over yourselves. You’re all saying the same thing in the end.
Short response: Your prof didn’t know what he was talking about.
All religions are not the same. Christianity is the only religion that offers salvation by grace through faith, rather than salvation by merits. It is the only true faith, all others being manmade or worse.
The people who need to get over themselves are those who believe that they are good people who deserve a reward from God for their good deeds.
All religions are the same. They profess to be the only true religion. The turn their belivers into (non-thinking) zombies. The promote hatred, xenophobia, violence and war(s). This world would be in a much better state without the corrupt machine known as organized religion.
You are a total ignoramus. Religions are all different. Some worship thousands of gods, some one. Some have one sacred book, others have several.
It sounds like you are describing atheistic communism or Islam rather than any other religion with which I am familiar. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, three atheists, murdered over 100 million of their own citizens. How rational.
Ah, but Christians slaughtered millions of Muslims during the crusades because they refused to worship Christ. Christians also murdered millions of Jews during the Holocaust because they refused to worship Christ.
Jews, according to your and their holy book, slaughtered the entire land of Caanan because their god gave it to them and told them to kill everything there.
Muslims, actually one of the more tolerant of religions up until recently, have slaughtered many for offending their sensibilities.
The ones that don’t slaughter seem pretty much to be the non-Abrahamic religions. You don’t here of too many holy wars from shamanism, Buddism, Taoism, Confucionism, or even Satanism. When was the last time we saw any Satanists perpetrating holy war? Have we ever? The point is that all religions have some basic tenets: treat others as they deserve to be treated and recognize there is something out there bigger than you. I have no problems with those tenets – it’s the dogma that chases my karma away.
=Ah, but Christians slaughtered millions of Muslims during the crusades because they refused to worship Christ. Christians also murdered millions of Jews during the Holocaust because they refused to worship Christ.
Wrong on both counts. You are not just misinformed but apparently willfully so. The Crusades were defensive, in that the Eastern churches asked the pope for help defeating the Muslim hordes, w tenet of whose religion remains that Christians and Jews must be converted, subjugated, or killed. And Hitler was hardly a presiding over a Christian theocracy that was persecuting Jews!!! You are simply unqualified to have this discussion.
=Jews, according to your and their holy book, slaughtered the entire land of Caanan because their god gave it to them and told them to kill everything there.
Yes indeed. But there is no free standing order in the Bible to kill all unbelievers that won’t convert, as there is in the Koran. If God wanted a certain tribe killed because they were particularly rebellious, as was the case with the Canaanites, that’s his business. But the Bible does not say to kill non-Jews or non-Christians.
=Muslims, actually one of the more tolerant of religions up until recently, have slaughtered many for offending their sensibilities.
Another totally ignorant statement. Go here http://jihadwatch.org/islam101/. Everything you read will increase your knowledge of Islam, which is currently at zero.
=The ones that don’t slaughter seem pretty much to be the non-Abrahamic religions. You don’t here of too many holy wars from shamanism, Buddism, Taoism, Confucionism, or even Satanism. When was the last time we saw any Satanists perpetrating holy war?
Oh yes, those peace-loving satanists.
=Have we ever? The point is that all religions have some basic tenets: treat others as they deserve to be treated and recognize there is something out there bigger than you. I have no problems with those tenets – it’s the dogma that chases my karma away.
Buddhism is non-theistic. Buddhists invented Karate and Kung Fu etc. No violence there. Hindus were very warlike until the Brits tamed them, and made them stop burning widows alive. They still attack Christians, Muslims and Sikhs when the opportunity presents itself. Shamanism is whatever the shaman says it is, Confusionism is not a religion. As for Taoism, from the Tao Te Ching, Chapter LVII Verse 131: “Wage war by being crafty.” Taoism does not mean pacifism; and a Taoist war strategy, as described by Sun Tzu, is to avoid the enemy’s strength and instead undermine, like water, his weaknesses.
Uh catholics and christians have killed many thousands of people in the past, present and (most likely) in the future. Oh and don’t forget the fact that they love to rape little boys and girls.
If you could just see past your blinders, you would note that you proved my point about all religions being the same so thanks. They all worship a fake deity, be it 1, 2, 12 or 1000 deities. All use some type of false book for worship and to strike fear into people so they will follow that particular religion.
Sorry clergyman, sexual assault is no accident. “Oops, I accidentally raped this woman!” Nope, doesn’t happen that way. You assaulted her, you should pay – not State Farm.
Wait… this wasn’t a Catholic? You mean Methodist clergy can commit sex crimes too?
Of course, if this was a Catholic priest there wouldn’t even be a trial, he’d just be guilty and there’s be a few million dollar payout instead of a suspended sentance for probation.
and now we see him all over trying to get his wife elected, why can’t people remember what he did…what a lier he was…I didn’t have sex with her, oh ya sure Bill..
The Church has (recently) become quite open about child molestation cases… the percentage is rather low.
I’ve personally never known a priest who molested (or was accused of molesting) a child… but I do know, personally, of many lay-people in Catholic schools and teachers at public shchools that have slept with students (although many have gone non-reported).
What people need to realize is the Catholic Church is, for lack of a better term, the largest corporation in the world. If you’re looking to sue someone and make a mint, find something to sue The Church over and back up the Brinks truck.
Didn’t State Farm pay policy limits on a personal umbrella for the Paula Jones incident for Bill Clinton?????
Good for State Farm.
These creeps that hide behind their make believe non-existing deities and prey on their flock of mindless sheep are shameful.
They took my money so they should pay to defend me?? eventhough I pled guilty and did two years probation???
I cannot believe this idiot is preaching to anyone.
Golly gee Adrian, non-existent deities? I didn’t know that Methodists were polytheists. As for atheism, tell us please, having looked everywhere you can’t find God? Actually, you could not have looked everywhere, could you? Therefore, atheism is ridiculous, not theism.
how come nobody mention the fact this guy still has a job – in the same line of work!
what are people thinking? he has reformed?
I doubt it.
Adrian – I agree that intentional acts are not covered by any form of liability policy that I know of and further that there is no way sexual assault is anything other than an intentional act.
The only issue I have with your comment is the remark about “hiding behing imaginary deities”. God (presumably the imaginary deity you refer to) has said in His Word (the Bible) not once, but twice, (Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1) “The fool has said in his heart there is no God” so where does that put you? You may want to rethink your comment.
Nice tolerance of other peoples beliefs Adrian. Puts you right up there with the Bin Ladens of the world in terms of tolerance.
Believer, Adrian will not be swayed by arguments from Scripture without divine intervention. He would just dismiss the Bible out of hand (probably having never read it). I was wondering what he would say to my implication that atheism is irrational, given that before one can declare that someone does not exist, when billions of people have and do insist exists, one must have looked for Him everywhere with certainty that He has not hidden Himself from him.
Since he probably hasn’t looked at the bottom of the ocean and certainly hasn’t looked on Io, and everywhere in between and beyond, and cannot be sure that God has not hidden Himself, he cannot rationally assert atheism. So he clams up.
He is content to feel superior to the cretin who was the subject of this news item, while leaving off the consideration of Pol Pot and other atheist notables.
Alright people, let the religion thing go. Adrian is allowed his beliefs just like you are allowed to believe in yours. Deal with it, move on and quit being so thin skinned. For the record Adrian, I agree with you.
As for the judge, great ruling. This pastor is a moron is he thinks sexual assult is not an intentional act. I am surprised that looney Kim David isn’t on here SCREAMING that state farm screwed this pastor out of coverage because of “hidden exclusions” in the policy, re: intentional acts.
Wow, Mary scolds debaters then takes sides in an argument of which she pretends to disapprove. What a phony.
And some gals wonder why we watch so much football.
Up until now, members of other religions had the decency to keep their mouths shut about sexual encounters with religious leaders. As a Catholic, I find it repugnant that so many people have said absolutely nothing about alleged abuse for decades. Suddenly, when the almighty smell of money came into play, they start with their pathetic public confessions. You have to know that the Catholic church doesn’t have a corner on the promiscuity market.
Yes he’s reformed. He used to molest Methodists, but now he’s going after non-denominational Protestants.
What sort of an attorney would take a case like this?
Actually, public school teachers are much more frequently molesters of boys and small women than priests are.
I’m sure that’s true, but how many hundreds of thousands of teachers are there vs the number of priests in America?
It is definitely true that the Catholic Church does not have the only molesters out there.
No Mary, Adrian started the attacks on religion for no reason. I am not a religious person, but just because I’m not is no reason for me to ridicule someone else’s beliefs. After all, none of us know who in reality is right. Some claim to, but they won’t know until its too late to post us and let us know for sure.
Yeah but that was BILL CLINTON! And the real fight was over on top of limits.
Bill Clinton was defended for defamation of character of Paula Jones.
The article doesn’t say whether the church purchased separate coverage for abuse. It seems that would be a key issue in the lawsuit. If they don’t have it, State Farm should NOT pay.
And he should not be preaching anymore. Period.
If he had not admitted his ‘crime’ in criminal court State Farm would lack evidence to deny defense obligations. Sounds like the same attorney that represented him in the criminal aspect of this matter is representing him for the coverage aspect. He can probably secure compensation for the legal bills from the malpractice carrier for his attorney.
As opposed to our current president who hasn’t lied about anything while in office? Politician and liar are redundant.
Haven’t you figured that out yet?
My favorite bumper sticker is the the one that says “When Clinton Lied No One Died.”
Not that I condone Clinton’s actions while in office.
So, what lie did Bush tell that resulted in anyone’s death?
You can’t argue that slogan with the Bush haters. To them nothing else matters but their hate. I like to refer to them as yellow backed Democrats. Nice ring to it.
Now don’t go comparing apples to oranges. The Catholic church was sued for covering up the sexual misconducts of their priests and by so doing allowed the continued commission of those acts. In this case, this man is trying to have someone else pay for his deliberate misdeeds….no cover up by the church and once his misdeeds came to light, there were no additional, continued criminal acts. and if you listen to his comments about State Farm not being there when he needed them, you’ll recognize that he doesn’t understand insurance and the moral hazard he is trying to perpetrate. What a scumbag! The court got this right; but it is too bad for the woman because she won’t collect a nickle from him and now that State Farm is out of the picture, there is no one else with deep pockets.
81 Dems voted to go to war. John Kerry and Bill’s ol’ lade et al were all on board. Even Silky Pony Boy voted for it. Now it’s “Bush lied.” I don’t get it.
12 years of catholic education, 4 years o college, 50 years of searching, that’s my background. The Bible is based on several thousands of years of oral tradition for the old testament and a couple of centuries for the new testament. Not a word was written until the common era and in 325 AD, MEN decided what text to include and what to throw out. Now the coptic texts are coming back, as in the Da Vinci Code and the Gospel according to Judas. The point is that none of this is PROVEN but rather is faith based. A lack of proof does not mean that there isn’t a deity anymore than a lack of proof means that there is. What it probably does mean is that we just don’t know enough about a deity to be able to discern one. To paraphrase Pliny the Elder, if the deity is all powerful, all knowing, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, then the deity is unlike anything mankind has ever experienced or seen, how then can mankind understand, let alone know, what the deity is or know when or where to find it? I still search but I do know this, my mother warned me about quoting scripture and you should take heed: even the devil in your bible quoted scripture. It doesn’t support your position anymore than the Quran supports bin Laden…..
What? Were WMD found in Iraq? and Bin Laden didn’t sleep with Sadam? And Al Gonzalez didn’t fire attorneys for not prosecuting Dubya’s “enemies” or politicize the AG’s office? To say that none of these falsehoods amounts to a lie, is an even greater lie!
So there were no WMDs in Iraq at any time, terrorists never were in Iraq and the AG’s office has never been political, ever. Who is lying here? Just quote the liberal talking points and keep your head in the sand. I personally will let history do the talking. I don’t care why we are in Iraq now, we broke it and we better not leave before it’s fixed. If we do history will judge us all very poorly. You can see this as a liberal or in terms of reality. They aren’t the same thing.
Of course, non of this line of posts has anything to do with the subject as usual. Typical Friday afternoon baloney, including my end of the posts. I am way too busy to keep posting so goodbye for now.
> The Bible is based on several thousands of years of oral tradition for the old testament and a couple of centuries for the new testament. Not a word was written until the common era and in 325 AD, MEN decided what text to include and what to throw out.
Wow SG, that’s basically all wrong. (When did AD change to CE?) First, the Bible certainly was written down during the OT era. There are instances of prophets being told to write, and copies of the Scriptures are mentioned. The colophons (“these are the generations…”) in Genesis are in fact clear evidence that Genesis was a compilation of written documents. Plus, at the Council of Nicea THE CHURCH, represented by her bishops in council, canonized the Holy Scripture. However, Papias’s (unofficial) 1st century canon was essentially the same books give or take. If the Holy Spirit was guiding the undivided Church, maybe He was able to lead her to decide which books should have been included in the canon.
> Now the coptic texts are coming back, as in the Da Vinci Code and the Gospel according to Judas.
(I think that by “Coptic” you meant Gnostic.) Actually, only pagans, gnostics, ignoramuses and theological “liberals” give these Gnostic texts any credibility.
>The point is that none of this is PROVEN but rather is faith based.
What I have said above is factual beyond dispute.
>A lack of proof does not mean that there isn’t a deity anymore than a lack of proof means that there is. What it probably does mean is that we just don’t know enough about a deity to be able to discern one.
Hmmm… so men with no knowledge of God invented all kinds of things about a God they had no knowledge of. Not bloody likely. Maybe, just maybe, God was able to speak to His creatures and tell them what to write down. At least, that’s what billions of Christians believe and have believed.
>To paraphrase Pliny the Elder, if the deity is all powerful, all knowing, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, then the deity is unlike anything mankind has ever experienced or seen, how then can mankind understand, let alone know, what the deity is or know when or where to find it?
The aspects of His being that you mention are incommunicable. We can’t even begin to fathom what it means to possess these faculties and abilities. But we readily understand God’s communicable qualities likelove, patience, kindness, authority, mercy, justice/righteousness, friendship, jealousy for His property etc because, being made in His image means (among other things) possessing these qualities ourselves.
>I still search but I do know this, my mother warned me about quoting scripture and you should take heed: even the devil in your bible quoted scripture. It doesn’t support your position anymore than the Quran supports bin Laden…..
But the Koran does support bin Laden, because it tells Muslims repeatedly to kill infidels who will not convert or pay tribute to the caliphate. bin Laden and his followers are actually being good Muslims when they kill infidels.
You have a lot to learn my friend. A word to the wise is sufficient: A comely quality in a man on a journey is humility.
Didn’t scold just said to move on and get back on topic. Nothing wrong with that. Why are your panties in a bunch Al? I think perfectly and rationally. Grow a set of balls Al.
yeah and the moon is made of cheese.
>What? Were WMD found in Iraq?
Yes. 400 tons of enriched uranium as found and reported by the NY Times. Also sarin and mustard gas, and missiles forbidden to the Baathist regime by the terms of the cease fire agreement at the end of the first war.
>and Bin Laden didn’t sleep with Sadam?
Zarqawi and Al Qaeda were in Iraq before our invasion, as were other terrorists like Abu Nidal.
>And Al Gonzalez didn’t fire attorneys for not prosecuting Dubya’s “enemies” or politicize the AG’s office?
Not that this happened at al, but if it had, who died? And Clinton fired 93 AG’s when he took office, including those investigating Democrats like Dan Rostenkowski. They serve at the pleasure of the POTUS and can be removed for any reason or no reason.
>To say that none of these falsehoods amounts to a lie, is an even greater lie!
I have proved you wrong in each isntance. I guess now you’re going to go to dailykook.com for some ammo.
Send me yours, Mare.
Topic, we don’t need no stinking topic.
The war you freaking retard.
the bible is a fantastic work of fiction. next….
Mine are too big for a little boy like you to handle but thanks for the laugh.
Now there is a disturbing thought.
“the bible is a fantastic work of fiction. next….”
Prove it. Which, book, event, miracle, or character etc can you prove is fictitious?
We should be asking ourselves if the accused pastor’s agent knew that he did not have the coverage needed. I am not knocking State Farm as several local agents are friends of mine. However, State Farm typically sells a commerical policy that simply does not offer the most comprehensive coverages. A local State Farm agent had me write the policy on the business of one of his CSRs because he realized his policy was cutting coverages to make the price look good. I would like to see insurance regulators require replacement forms to be completed when commercial policies are replaced – same as whole life policies. If so, then insureds couldn’t come back crying foul years later when their policy doesn’t pay a liability claim but, they loved saving money on their premium. It may even reduce our E&O premiums.
Prove to me that they (any of which you described) are real.
Sorry to gross you out N.I. Have a great day.
“Prove to me that they (any of which you described) are real.”
The campaign into Israel by Pharaoh Shishak (1 Kings 14:25-26) was recorded on the walls of the Temple of Amun in Thebes, Egypt.
The revolt of Moab against Israel (2 Kings 1:1; 3:4-27) was recorded on the Mesha Inscription.
The fall of Samaria (2 Kings 17:3-6, 24; 18:9-11) to Sargon II, king of Assyria was recorded on his palace walls.
The defeat of Ashdod by Sargon II (Isaiah 20:1) was as recorded on his palace walls.
The campaign of the Assyrian king Sennacherib against Judah (2 Kings 18:13-16) was recorded on the Taylor Prism.
The siege of Lachish by Sennacherib (2 Kings 18:14, 17) was as recorded on the Lachish reliefs.
The assassination of Sennacherib by his own sons (2 Kings 19:37) was recorded in the annals of his son Esarhaddon.
The fall of Nineveh as predicted by the prophets Nahum and Zephaniah (2:13-15) was recorded on the Tablet of Nabopolasar.
The fall of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (2 Kings 24:10-14), as recorded in the Babylonian Chronicles.
The captivity of Jehoiachin, king of Judah, in Babylon (2 Kings 24:15-16) was recorded on the Babylonian Ration Records.
The fall of Babylon to the Medes and Persians (Daniel 5:30-31) was recorded on the Cyrus Cylinder.
The freeing of captives in Babylon by Cyrus the Great (Ezra 1:1-4; 6:3-4) was recorded on the Cyrus Cylinder.
Jesus Christ was mentioned by Josephus, Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, the Talmud, and Lucian.
The Jews were forced to leave Rome during the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54) (Acts 18:2), as was recorded by Suetonius.
Now you know better. And whatever hypocrisy some minister has committed has changed none of these facts.
Amazing reply Al. Are you a professional Bible historian or is this just a hobby? I am impressed with your knowledge.
I know buetter than to comment but I will “bite”. These are just stories told verbally for generations and then finally written down/ printed yet changed to fit that persons views, prejudices, agenda, etc. until the printing press came around and the bible was mass produced with formatted but still stories were changed. Doesn’t mean that any or all of your bible is true. Can I nail you to a cross and see if you will rise in a couple of days? Pretty please?
Don’t forget you are the one egging me on. Don’t like it then STFU.
Aw shucks, thanks Mr.Obvious, just something I whipped up off the top o’ me ‘ead. Actually I just googled true Bible facts or something and came up with it. But I do have an M. Div. too.
Gee Steve, what a lame-o response. You just make bald assertions and expect people to, well, to what? You don’t bother to site any authority to help with your charges. You get a big fat F in theology class today.
To inform your ignorance, the Bible was written over the course of many centuries. It’s integrity was jealously guarded by the Old Testament scribes and the New Testament apostles and the Church. Any changes in its content would have been recognized instantly. For instance, could someone remove the 2nd Amendment from the Constitution without ANYONE noticing or protesting? Or could some judge find abortion in the Constitution with no one protesting? No. So judges try to say that the Constitution doesn’t really mean what it says, or that some vague appeal to “a penumbra of rights” conjures up the “right” to abort a child.
In the same way, the Old Testament was well known by the Hebrews since it was basically the source of their entire culture. It was their law, their history, their poetry, they sang it and recitged it to their kids and heard it read on Sabbath etc. How could it have been changed without anyone noticing?
And the New Testament was written down and copied and sent around to all the churches with alacrity. Attempts to change its contents could be easily enough exposed by simply comparing texts from one church with texts in another.
The textual differences that are found in the Bible have to do with things like spelling and copyist’s errors, none of which affect any doctrines or historical facts.
The historical incidents that I provided are inarguably facts as corroborated by the sources that I provided. I would say that the veracity of the Bible actually substantiates the sources’ accuracy rather than the other way around, given that the Bible is proved true by all of these independent and disparate sources.
So please provide us with the original texts to which you refer, where these passages all said something different than what they now say in the Bible, or on the wall at Thebes for that matter. Actually, it can’t be done so don’t bother trying. And you don’t have to STFU as you so graciously invited me to do. Feel free to seek further instruction at your convenience.
I shouldn’t, but I’ll stick in the two-cents I learned in college.
Al – the bible has changed over the years, including during the time it was oral history. That’s what oral history does, it changes. It changes because people place differnent emphasis on different aspects during the telling. It changes because people forget. It changes because someone down the line didn’t like how a particular verse went. It changes because the language changes. It also changes because beliefs change. Look at Judaism before and after the exile to Babylon. Prior to exile they believed that good or bad everything came from God. There was no belief in the Devil until after the exile when they adopted the apocolyptic views of the Zoroastrians. That’s just one example.
The written history has changed because we do not have true and faithful copies of the written histories either. The language has changed and the meaning of words changed. The vernacular of 5,000 years ago, or even 1,000 years ago, is not the same as it is now. The languages these scripts were writ in are dead. We can attempt to translate them but the translation is open to interpretation. Once you interpret something the meaning has changed.
And that’s not counting that the most widely read bible – the King James version – was politically changed to suit King James. That is a well known fact taught in most theology 101 courses. I don’t dispute that most of the events in the bible happened, I just want to shed light on the discussion.
Thanks lastbat, again a tiny voice of reason in a vast sea of chaos. Of course Al is a religious zealot almost of the christian Taliban sort so he will not listen to or recognize a word of what you have to say. He prefers to live is life with blinders and ear-muffs on.
There are hundreds of educaitonal and scholarly books that explain how the bible and its stories have changed over the centuries to fit a particular persons agenda, point of view, bias, translation issues, etc.
Ignorance is truly bliss for some.
Have a great day lastbat.
I am amazed of how this article concerning pastorial liability can off-spring into a discussion of the validity of the Bible. Church accounts are some of the best accounts that I have in my agency. I would think that we would want to learn from this article in order to discuss the risks with our customers and prospects.
However, I must say that Al is ‘right on’!!! The International Linguistics Center is about a mile west of my office and many of my customers are professionals that have worked there for decades. Research done in the past 20 years is showing that the Bible has changed VERY little in its message. The few changes are insignificant in nature.
Many people state that some of the stories are impossibilities. One of my cousins is a double PhD research scientist for Exxon-Mobile with 40 years experience in geo-physics. He states that it is accepted among all of the worlds leading geologist (even the atheist) that the ‘great flood’ did happen. You can argue about Noah’s story but, the flood DID happen! Geologist extracting natural gas in the Barnett Shale area where I live ‘fool’ nature to speed up the process of evolution by 50,000 years to make the formation produce natural gas now. A leading geo-physicist has recently stated that if he had a a 1,000 years and an umlimited research budget that he could show us how God created the world in six days.
Physicist Stephen Hawkings (considered the world’s smartest atheist) has recently stated that given new data that even he admits that it is improbable that the universe was created in its brillance without the help of an ‘intelligent designer’.
In short, modern linguistic techniques are proving the Bible has changed little and science is proving that even the most miraculous stories are being shown as viable – just give us some more time to figure out how God did it.
I will close by reminding everyone that Jesus said that if we don’t recognize him in this world then, he will not recognize us in the world to come.
=Al – the bible has changed over the years, including during the time it was oral history.
As noted earlier lastbat, there is evidence in Genesis —the oldest book- that its various segments were written down before they were compiled into one book. Where it says, “these are the generations of Adam,” Gen. 5:1, it is referring to the previous text – the account of Adam’s life and immediate descendents. This goes on throughout the book.
=That’s what oral history does, it changes. It changes because people place differnent emphasis on different aspects during the telling. It changes because people forget.
It was not oral history. It’s a good ruse on your part though, because you get off scott free when I ask you to produce some proof of its non-graphical basis.
=It changes because someone down the line didn’t like how a particular verse went. It changes because the language changes. It also changes because beliefs change. Look at Judaism before and after the exile to Babylon. Prior to exile they believed that good or bad everything came from God. There was no belief in the Devil until after the exile when they adopted the apocolyptic views of the Zoroastrians. That’s just one example.
That’s the first time I’ve ever heard that notion. First, as noted, Genesis is a compilation of written accounts of history as evident by certain textual clues. Second, your premise that Israel developed a providential view of good and evil is at odds even with theological liberals who invented the notion of “ethical monotheism” to square the Jews’ exilic and post-exilic plight with God’s judgment of the nation =and= continuing covenant relation with His people. So you have it exactly backwards there. And the devil appears in Genesis 3. It would have been odd for the Babylonians to have conferred Zoroastrianism on the Jews since they were not Zoroastrians.
=The written history has changed because we do not have true and faithful copies of the written histories either.
Please direct me to your sources that track significant doctrinal changes in the text, rather than merely copyists errors.
=The language has changed and the meaning of words changed. The vernacular of 5,000 years ago, or even 1,000 years ago, is not the same as it is now. The languages these scripts were writ in are dead. We can attempt to translate them but the translation is open to interpretation. Once you interpret something the meaning has changed.
The Hebrew text is remarkably unchanged, in that various textual finds all compare favorably for instance with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Since it was a written text, as opposed to your insubstantial assertions, it remained a living part of the culture. Even the changeover to the Aramaic alphabet did not change the text since it was merely a phonetic rendering of the text’s verbal sounds. Hebrew has never been a dead language, and the Church has kept knowledge of the New Testament koine Greek alive from the beginning with its millions of copies of the New Testament and its textual scholarship, regardless of changes in the secular Greek language. As for interpretations changing meaning, how do nations conduct diplomacy?
=And that’s not counting that the most widely read bible – the King James version – was politically changed to suit King James.
Perhaps you can give us several examples of these changes.
=That is a well known fact taught in most theology 101 courses. I don’t dispute that most of the events in the bible happened, I just want to shed light on the discussion.
Well you failed.
Sorry Al, I can’t oblige. I’m not a believer in any religion so the only exposure I have to the bible is some very (and I mean VERY) casual reading over the years and some college courses taken to fill out my elective requirements. I merely spewed back my college learning. You’ll have to blame my very Christian professor for any defects in my religious education. He’s the one who told me the Zoroastrians gave the Hebrew the apocolyptic view, he’s the one that told me most theology 101 courses give warnings of political changes in the King James bible, he’s the one that told me the bible conflicts itself in so many areas because it was mostly an oral history for thousands of years and the written histories were generally recorded hundreds of years after the event at the soonest. He’s also the one that reinforced to the class that Ancient Hebrew is different from Modern Hebrew is usage, vernacular and script. So while we can, after painstaking study, read Ancient Hebrew we still have to interpret it. The same goes with Ancient Greek and Aramaic.
Despite all the doubts, contradictions and so forth put to us during class, if you caught him outside of class he was a deacon in his church and a strong believer in the bible and his salvation in Christ. He just wanted to make sure his students were able to look at the bible with a critical eye and know that it can not be held up – as itself – as a true and accurate recording of history. You can never take one source as a true and accurate recording. And that just because one section of the bible is upheld by other sources you still must check everything with multiple sources before believing it. Especially when we’re talking about things thousands of years before our time.
Last bit. Pretty much all relgious texts sound the same to me. Perused through a great number of them and y’all who have religion need to get over yourselves. You’re all saying the same thing in the end.
Short response: Your prof didn’t know what he was talking about.
All religions are not the same. Christianity is the only religion that offers salvation by grace through faith, rather than salvation by merits. It is the only true faith, all others being manmade or worse.
The people who need to get over themselves are those who believe that they are good people who deserve a reward from God for their good deeds.
All religions are the same. They profess to be the only true religion. The turn their belivers into (non-thinking) zombies. The promote hatred, xenophobia, violence and war(s). This world would be in a much better state without the corrupt machine known as organized religion.
You are a total ignoramus. Religions are all different. Some worship thousands of gods, some one. Some have one sacred book, others have several.
It sounds like you are describing atheistic communism or Islam rather than any other religion with which I am familiar. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, three atheists, murdered over 100 million of their own citizens. How rational.
Ah, but Christians slaughtered millions of Muslims during the crusades because they refused to worship Christ. Christians also murdered millions of Jews during the Holocaust because they refused to worship Christ.
Jews, according to your and their holy book, slaughtered the entire land of Caanan because their god gave it to them and told them to kill everything there.
Muslims, actually one of the more tolerant of religions up until recently, have slaughtered many for offending their sensibilities.
The ones that don’t slaughter seem pretty much to be the non-Abrahamic religions. You don’t here of too many holy wars from shamanism, Buddism, Taoism, Confucionism, or even Satanism. When was the last time we saw any Satanists perpetrating holy war? Have we ever? The point is that all religions have some basic tenets: treat others as they deserve to be treated and recognize there is something out there bigger than you. I have no problems with those tenets – it’s the dogma that chases my karma away.
=Ah, but Christians slaughtered millions of Muslims during the crusades because they refused to worship Christ. Christians also murdered millions of Jews during the Holocaust because they refused to worship Christ.
Wrong on both counts. You are not just misinformed but apparently willfully so. The Crusades were defensive, in that the Eastern churches asked the pope for help defeating the Muslim hordes, w tenet of whose religion remains that Christians and Jews must be converted, subjugated, or killed. And Hitler was hardly a presiding over a Christian theocracy that was persecuting Jews!!! You are simply unqualified to have this discussion.
=Jews, according to your and their holy book, slaughtered the entire land of Caanan because their god gave it to them and told them to kill everything there.
Yes indeed. But there is no free standing order in the Bible to kill all unbelievers that won’t convert, as there is in the Koran. If God wanted a certain tribe killed because they were particularly rebellious, as was the case with the Canaanites, that’s his business. But the Bible does not say to kill non-Jews or non-Christians.
=Muslims, actually one of the more tolerant of religions up until recently, have slaughtered many for offending their sensibilities.
Another totally ignorant statement. Go here http://jihadwatch.org/islam101/. Everything you read will increase your knowledge of Islam, which is currently at zero.
=The ones that don’t slaughter seem pretty much to be the non-Abrahamic religions. You don’t here of too many holy wars from shamanism, Buddism, Taoism, Confucionism, or even Satanism. When was the last time we saw any Satanists perpetrating holy war?
Oh yes, those peace-loving satanists.
=Have we ever? The point is that all religions have some basic tenets: treat others as they deserve to be treated and recognize there is something out there bigger than you. I have no problems with those tenets – it’s the dogma that chases my karma away.
Buddhism is non-theistic. Buddhists invented Karate and Kung Fu etc. No violence there. Hindus were very warlike until the Brits tamed them, and made them stop burning widows alive. They still attack Christians, Muslims and Sikhs when the opportunity presents itself. Shamanism is whatever the shaman says it is, Confusionism is not a religion. As for Taoism, from the Tao Te Ching, Chapter LVII Verse 131: “Wage war by being crafty.” Taoism does not mean pacifism; and a Taoist war strategy, as described by Sun Tzu, is to avoid the enemy’s strength and instead undermine, like water, his weaknesses.
Just go away.
Okay, so we agree that satanists have never waged a holy war. At least we agree on something.
Git back to work.
Uh catholics and christians have killed many thousands of people in the past, present and (most likely) in the future. Oh and don’t forget the fact that they love to rape little boys and girls.
If you could just see past your blinders, you would note that you proved my point about all religions being the same so thanks. They all worship a fake deity, be it 1, 2, 12 or 1000 deities. All use some type of false book for worship and to strike fear into people so they will follow that particular religion.