What’s wrong is that Progressive offended the sensibilities and potential for profit for these two people and their attorney if they had in fact been enacting a fraud against the insurance company and its insureds.
The razmataz about privacy is a cover-up for being discovered.
This seems like typical sub-rosa tactics. Okay maybe being in the churhc was bad but if you catch a liar, you catch a liar regardless of where they were at the time. This second lawsuit by the couple appears to be total b.s and hopefully either thrown out of the courts or barred by the statute of limitations and/or repose.
From what I understand in another article about this, the meetings were confessional meetings where people would go to confess sins. This is why the investigators went their, hoping to catch the insureds in a confession. They were taping these sessions. This is wrong because they would have also been recording other people’s transgressions as well. These are things that people did not intend to have known outside of this meeting and it is irresponsible to covertly record events at meetings like this. There are also potential confidentiality issues as well.
Meetings like this need to be private without the trheat of recording devices in order for people to be open and honest with the group. Otherwise, support groups would cease to be effective.
IS HE THE SAME PROGRESSIVE CEO WHO GOT BUSTED FOR MARIJUANA POSSESSION LAST YEAR?
THAT WHOLE OPEARTION IS FOR-THE-BIRDS !
ANYWAY, IT ISN’T AN INSURANCE OPERATION
IT’S A PRICING HOUSE
THEY GET AS MUCH AS THE TRAFFIC WILL BEAR
LIKE GEICO, THEY ARE THE ARMPIT OF THE INDUSTRY
are regarded as sanctuaries, safe places to worship, share grief and pain, joys and hope.
Dirty trick Progressive! How would you investigators like it if one of your children were in a support group and the police were there undercover to try to make a bust.
Buy a dictionary, find your CapsLock, and keep up with news.
The former CEO of Progressive, Peter Lewis, was arrested on drug charges and donates heavily to NORML and several liberal political action groups as well as many philanthopic organizations (using his own, private funds). Mr. Renwick, the current President/CEO is a different person.
While houses of worship may be “regarded” as sanctuaries, there is no basis for that in US law. A confessional is different, because of the expectations of privacy between a cleric and the sinner. I don’t know if group sessions that are not psychiatric in nature have the same protections.
Obviously; Progressive now needs a cute animal to make things right. How about a talking, singing, dancing Progressive Panda. I think this would really work; at least until someone climbs into the Panda Pit at the Zoo and gets eaten.
so progressive folks were trying to discredit folks! um….is that because they did not want to payout? was the initial case a possible fraud? — so the story is not completely told…if in fact it was a discredit vs a fraud, then shame on them….
What’s wrong? Are you insane? Steve, what’s wrong is that big insurance companies are incentivizing their claims, adjusters, chop shops, and attorneys to reduce payouts on claims at any cost. And, these employees are getting creative (wink/wink) in pursuit of big bonuses, when instead they should be pursuing a strategy of handling claims quickly, and efficiently and most importantly, fairly.
What’s wrong? Your question and your attitude are what is wrong!
Only about 42% of customers are satisfied with their current insurance company. And, only 44% would recommend their current insurance company to friends and family. Only 42% that have had a claim think that they got a “fair” settlement.
survey?! wonder why that survey says 42%…geico has done research and found that 97% of it’s policyholders are satisfied with them…so wonder if that survey is actually accurate…
and it was so easy a caveman can do the research?!
TMcitizen64 — you are hilarious and extrmemely stupid but i still have pity for you. When you grow up and maybe pass university, you will understand my question.
And as a prior claims adjuster “my poll” states that 72% of my insured’s and claimants were lying frauds tryingto obtain money at any cost. Nothing wrong with a little sub-rosa to catch the cheaters and fraudsters in action.
While I always prefer to go after those who may cheat the system, I find this particuar investigative tactic disgraceful.
When I go to church, it is supposed be a conversation with my god thru an intermediary (being the priest).
If Progressive wants to use other legimate means (and there many other ways), I’ll all for it but not this type.
This issue isn’t about what’s constitually
or statutorily protected, it’s about fair sense and sensabilities or at least having a modicum of respect of a persons chosen religion.
I would like to ask the sub-rosa investigators this question: if you did hear, during this ‘confessional meeting’ that the insured lied, then what? What kind of jury, or judge for that matter, is going to admit this as evidence. The public perception would outweigh the evidence and Progressive loses either way. It does not take a mental giant to realize that information obtained in this manner is horribly wrong, if only from a public relations standpoint. The blogs on this site show that.
I have been in the business over 19 years. I am all for stamping out fraud, and using investigators/sub-rosa to find the fraudulent claims and bring them to light. That being said, I find the means this firm used to conduct surveillance disgusting!
I have an extremely hard time accepting the notion that 72% of claimants are trying to committ fraud. If that were true, roughly more than 2 out of 3 Americans are cheats and liars.
So question …Where do we draw the line when it comes to privacy? Should an investigator be able to follow you into a public bathroom stall to make sure that you are not committing fraud? Where does it end?
What is more distasteful than fraud? Going into a house of worship to get evidence of the fraud. Perception, perception, perception. We are the bad guys enough times. Why would we want to go into a church sponsored function to get evidence to deny a claim. It is good to have morals, scruples and all that goes with it but play by the rules. Everyone saw what happened when we tortured prisoners to get much needed information. Perception, perception, perception.
Where does it end? A real fight ends when you win or lose. If the bad guy runs into the bathroom, Nice, the fight continues there. Otherwise you just surrender to the bad guy and announce “attention bad guys, go into the bathroom and get away with any fraud”.
Steve is either lying (like his insureds/claimants) or just doesn’t know what he is talking about. There is no legitimate study out there that concludes that 72% of insureds/claimants lie about their claim. As a former claims adjuster, claims manager and now insurance defense attorney, I have at least as much knowledge about this subject as Steve and am willing to guarantee the numbers are not that high.
I don’t condone the methods of Progressive. Here some facts about fraud:
Industry Estimates of Fraud To understand the pervasiveness and impact of insurance fraud, consider the following:
• If insurance fraud were a legitimate business, it would be a TOP Fortune 500 Company
• Insurance fraud is the second largest white-collar crime in the United States, second only to income tax evasion
• Property/casualty insurance fraud cost insurers an estimated $30 billion in both 2004 and 2005, according to the Insurance Information Institute.
• The Property & Casualty industry estimates that 10 to 25 percent of all claims are fraudulent.
Source: Insurance Information Institute
Motivations of Fraud Perpetrators People commit fraud for many reasons. According to a 2003 Accenture Ltd. survey, 49% of people commit fraud because they can get away with it and 30% do it because they need the money.
Many people don’t think of insurance fraud as “stealing.” Of the people surveyed in a 2000 Insurance Research Council Poll, 25% believed that it is acceptable to overstate a claim to cover past premiums and 40% believed that it is acceptable to pad a claim to cover a deductible.
If the sub rosa was conducted in a public place with people openly volunteering confessions of wrong doing then I believe any evidence gained would be admissible. However, I gather from the article that the sub rosa in this case was done in a private setting where people had gathered for private confession. I don’t believe a Court would allow evidence gained in this way to be admitted.
Also, there is a creditable school of thought (and not just my cynicism) which says that there is an element, no matter how inconsequential, of fraud in 100% of all claims. Keep in mind, statistically only one tenth of 1% of all fraud is actually even brought to light by the insurance industry because of the fear of defamation suits by those investigated against insurance companies. You practically have to catch a fraud red-handed in order to even begin to have a case that will be heard.
Interesting stats. If they are right, 25% of your premiums are for fraud.
This means that the victims – honest insureds – should either be content with their roll as victims or help the insurance companies get convictions.
either way u look at it…fraud is fraud and that costs the insurance company lots of money (as in the stats per a prev entry)…the idea, is we need to have those that commit fraud to start paying back restitution w/interests….these folks know full well that they are doing it illegal and have no care, so why not make it sting!…have them work it off some how to the insurance company and the courts for having to bring them to justice due to the amount of money that is lost…
Thank you for your educated response. At least, with my graduate degree in economics, I can spell extremely and not have to work as a claims adjuster that is rewarded for low balling claims and bullying insureds.
tmcitizen64: What? You’re not in the claim business? How do you deal with your aggressive tendencies without bullying and low-balling people who present claims? Life must be really empty for you. Good thing you can post to sites like this one.
Thanks for clearifying, Wudchuck. However I expect companies to treat the cost of fraud the same as a store treats shoplifting. It’s overhead and it must move downline to the sales price.
Well for that matter, so does mandatory auto liability insurance.
When I got into this crazy biz the yearly price for basic limits in Texas was $72. Note that was for a year.
The increase in auto premiums since then is way more than inflation. The increased required limits since 1973 as been almost nothing.
On a procedural note: Don’t you agree that the CEO’s written mea culpa is a clear admission against interest which literally hands the case over to those who were quick to file lawsuits? Seems the only real question in the case after he published his apology is how much money are the greedheads going to get? It may not matter (or be admissible) whether or not the spying revealed any confessions on the part of your plaintiffs. They stand to get a larger quantity of cash with this suit than they ever could in the underlying case. Too bad…wonder if there was fraud in there?
Do you remember the case of the expensive cigar collection? The collection owner insured them with Lloyd’s, London.
Then he smoked the cigars and turned in a claim for fire damage to the stogies.
Lloyd’s contested but then paid the claim after the guy admitted in court that he’s smoked the cigars.
They gave him the claim check. They were prepared with police at hand. They presented him with arson charges, followed by a fraud charge. Both charges stuck.
He got a new tax-paid residence.
Why don’t we as agents begin the Polygraph application process test. PAP Test for short. When you come in to sign your application we will have to connect some wires to you and begin asking you the questions, if you fail to answer correctly we will have to deny you coverage. Also we will draw blood and ask for hair follicles to test you for Drugs and Alcohol. Most liars would be caught in the PAP Test which could report to a new underwriting tool. Credit Score, CLUE, MVR and PAP Test will determine your new auto rates based on these 4 factors. We have found if you have BAD Credit, Bad CLUE, Bad MVR and a Bad PAP Test your rates WILL be higher so call Geico they will take you!!!!! Thank You and good day…..
What I don’t understand is how an insurance company will pay $25,000 in attorney fees and litigation costs on a claim that would settle for $15,000. Doesn’t seem like sound economics to me.
the insurance industry sucks. they cheat, rob and steal from shops and employees to boost their bottom line profits. they enslave their employees and break their balls without mercy.
i beg to differ that the industry is out to take money out of your pocket. in the first place, it is a business. secondly it is there for your protection pending how much you want to be protected for. i work in the industry, and for the most part that i have seen, majority of the industry is not sold to make a major profit. the issue we deal with more often is how well do you drive and how many folks are driving without insurance! far too many folks that drive think because they have just tickets and no accidents, they should be lest costly. in reality, they can be more of a risk than the person whom just recently had an accident. the other issue, is why are we gladly handing out driver’s licenses to folks whom may never get insurance for a vehicle they may or may not own. i am glad that north carolina makes it mandatory just to have a license you have to show proof of insurance. but then again, many get the insurance and shortly after getting their license they drop the insurance. but, they don’t realize, that the state suspends licenses for no insurance with a license. yet most folks think they are ok! i think we need to make all drivers show proof of insurance before they get a license or PERMIT! if we get that, we will find rates getting better.
I recently had a car accident going 20 mph and hit a light pole. The Progresssive adjustor is intentionally raising the prices on the damages on my car to total it out instead of just repairing my car. How on earth can you be going 20 mph approaching a red light with foot on break, hit a lightpole and total out a car? This is fraud and I want the Pesident of Progressive to know what kind of people he has working for him. We pay $291.00 per month for full coverage and this si the kind of treaatment we get? Is there anyone who can help me, please?
I never had a chance to tell my side of the story so, here it goes.
I NEVER recorded anyone else but Mrs. and Mr. Pitts. Only when Mrs. Pitts spoke did I hit the record button on the digital recorder that was hidden in my bra and shut it off when she stop speaking. I only needed to obtain a recording of her talking without studdering which she claims started when she was in a car accident and suffered a brain injury. I caught her talking like there was NO problem. Busted!
I video taped her WALKING WITHOUT HELP from the back of the church to the front of the church, get a “laying of hands” (forgot what it’s actually called), lay down on the floor, get up WITHOUT help and walk all the way back to the church.
She would stand in prayer or when we were asked to stand and sometimes that was up to 5 – 10 minutes.
So, basically, she faked it. She showed up at the attorney’s office acting all “broken” and when the lawyer showed the Pitts and their lawyer the tape and then played the audio clip of her talking, both lawyers went into the hall and settled for a very small portion of what they were wanting.
That really upset the Pitts. Tough teets. So, then they threw a net out to catch anyone they could, that was involved, to sue them. When I got served, they claimed that what my instructor (I was NOT licensed at the time) and I did what I was to TOLD/INSTRUCTED DO to obtain evidence that she was committing insurance fraud caused her not to be able to have sexual relations with her husband and other ridiculous things. Calling what we did “immoral” and “unethical.” You’d have to read it to believe it.
Now, let’s look at this from another angle.
They played on the CHURCH’S kindness and generosity.
Faked injuries to get a big cash settlement.
When people, like the Pitts, do things like that; it drives up insurance premiums.
They lied to the church for personal gain.
We didn’t and we even gave a donation to the church.
She played on peoples emotions.
So, exactly was conducting themselves in an “unethical” and “immoral” way? My conscience is clean on this matter. I can’t seem to find anyone who thinks that what Private Investigators or what the company I worked for was good and just.
I only did what I was told to do, by my Instructor, AS PART OF MY TRAINING.
I want this to go away. I followed my heart and my passion and if she got busted for lying and faking her injuries…poor baby.
They think that hiding in a church is going to save them. Guess what! God is everywhere and sees everything and He knows that what I did was the RIGHT thing.
Sue me for busting con-artists. They deserve it. (Stand in line. I’m no longer a P. I.)
Our Heavenly Father knows what I did and it all comes out in the wash.
No regrets, no regrets. None at all when it comes to this case.
Yes there was fraud on the Pitts part. Now, their lawyer is suing my former employer for 20 MILLION dollars on the PREACHER’S (Kings) behalf. My former boss let my license lapse and told me NOT to get served in the Progessive case. I did anyway. I have nothing to hide. I did as I was INSTRUCTED during training. They (my former boss and his lawyer) are trying to pin all this on me. My boss’s lawyer said, “When I went into the Bible Study group, that I was a free agent.” I was covered under Merlin’s umbrella. My lawyer friend says, “They are trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. Don’t answer any questions and if you do, tell the truth and that is EXACTLY what everyone is afraid of.
I am not afraid. I, personally, do not think I did anything wrong. I was doing the right things for the right reasons.
i am glad you did your job. i am an insurance agent. it behooves me to think that everyone thinks that big brothers have money.
QUESTION: did they or did they not commit fraud? YES! apparently, they lied and got a smaller settlement.
i am suprised that they have not gone back after them for the fraud or at least by the state. fraud does cost and increases the premiums. i think they decided to sue for the extra stuff because they did not get what they wanted to begin with. i also think that the lawyer was probably upset the he did not get as much money as expected. he figures now, that he can recover one way or another even if they win or lose. this kind of lawsuit is frivilous and should be punished.
Just two days ago, a lawfirm called my father and the man said he worked as a Private Investigator and wanted to know if I was at my father’s home. I have not called them back. The Pitt’s and all their crap is like a booger you can’t get off of your finger. Why are they after me? My former boss has to be insured by law. He was the one that gave me the order to do what I did so, what do you think they want? What do you think I should do? Flip on my former boss who wants to hang all of this on me?
This is another example of “criminals” having rights to waste taxpayers’ money for financial gain.
Dealing with the system during a civil fraud suit inspired me to get a degree in criminal justice with the possibility of a career in fraud investigation.
Look out Pitts, Kings, Brookshires, and all the other sorry citizens who try to take from others illegally. What goes around comes around, and you will get yours.
Our textbook cited a frivilous lawsuit filed by an inmate. This inmate pretended to believe he could get pregnant by having sex with a homosexual. He was suing because the doctor wouldn’t give him birth control pills.
“Only about 2,000 petitions were filed per year in the courts concerning inmate problems (1961). By 1975 that number had risen to approximately 17,000; and in 1996 prisoners filed 68,235 civil rights lawsuits in federal courts nationwide.”
Laurie Asseo, “Inmate Lawsuits,” Associated Press wire service, May 24, 1996; and Bureau of Justice Stastics, “State and Federal Prisoners Filed 68,235 Petitions in U.S. Courts in 1996,” press release, October 29, 1997.
Other petitions were filed because an inmate got only one roll with his dinner; another because he didn’t get a luncheon salad; and a third time because prison- provided TV dinners didn’t come with a drink (Schmalleger, 2007).
Law-abiding citizens need to speak out about such ridiculous actions.
What do any of you think you could do legally to publicize this attempt to “get rich quick”.
Restorative justice in Australia has a good idea that SHAMING offenders produces positive results. We have freedom of speech! Research the law, and legally show the preacher and the Pitts what others think of their greed and alleged dishonesty!
A Philadelphia resident was charged with 62 counts of Insurance Fraud and 22 counts of Identity Theft in his effort to out-smart seven different insurance companies.
The man obtained four automobile insurance policies with Progressive Insurance Company. Days later, the gentleman filed four separate damage claims reporting that all four vehicles had been vandalized. After realizing that the man never even paid for the insurance policies, Progressive denied all claims. Subsequently, Progressive reported all four matters to the District Attorney’s Insurance Fraud Unit.
Investigators uncovered 70 additional insurance claims involving AIG, Allstate, Geico, Progressive, Safe Auto, Safeco and Unitrin Direct. Further investigations revealed that 60 of those claims were denied due to insufficient payment. In addition, 22 of the claims were filed under the identity of an innocent victim.
The man had no shame when repeatedly identifying himself as a police officer, an accountant, a bounty hunter, a soldier and other various professions in order to expedite his claims. The “phantom” was denied over $120,000 in 45 different claims, but received over $29,000 in settlement on 17 fraudulent claims.
What’s wrong is that Progressive offended the sensibilities and potential for profit for these two people and their attorney if they had in fact been enacting a fraud against the insurance company and its insureds.
The razmataz about privacy is a cover-up for being discovered.
This seems like typical sub-rosa tactics. Okay maybe being in the churhc was bad but if you catch a liar, you catch a liar regardless of where they were at the time. This second lawsuit by the couple appears to be total b.s and hopefully either thrown out of the courts or barred by the statute of limitations and/or repose.
From what I understand in another article about this, the meetings were confessional meetings where people would go to confess sins. This is why the investigators went their, hoping to catch the insureds in a confession. They were taping these sessions. This is wrong because they would have also been recording other people’s transgressions as well. These are things that people did not intend to have known outside of this meeting and it is irresponsible to covertly record events at meetings like this. There are also potential confidentiality issues as well.
Meetings like this need to be private without the trheat of recording devices in order for people to be open and honest with the group. Otherwise, support groups would cease to be effective.
IS HE THE SAME PROGRESSIVE CEO WHO GOT BUSTED FOR MARIJUANA POSSESSION LAST YEAR?
THAT WHOLE OPEARTION IS FOR-THE-BIRDS !
ANYWAY, IT ISN’T AN INSURANCE OPERATION
IT’S A PRICING HOUSE
THEY GET AS MUCH AS THE TRAFFIC WILL BEAR
LIKE GEICO, THEY ARE THE ARMPIT OF THE INDUSTRY
are regarded as sanctuaries, safe places to worship, share grief and pain, joys and hope.
Dirty trick Progressive! How would you investigators like it if one of your children were in a support group and the police were there undercover to try to make a bust.
Joe –
You can’t spell and why are you YELLING?
I suspect you are yelling because you don’t know what you are talking about.
Buy a dictionary, find your CapsLock, and keep up with news.
The former CEO of Progressive, Peter Lewis, was arrested on drug charges and donates heavily to NORML and several liberal political action groups as well as many philanthopic organizations (using his own, private funds). Mr. Renwick, the current President/CEO is a different person.
While houses of worship may be “regarded” as sanctuaries, there is no basis for that in US law. A confessional is different, because of the expectations of privacy between a cleric and the sinner. I don’t know if group sessions that are not psychiatric in nature have the same protections.
Obviously; Progressive now needs a cute animal to make things right. How about a talking, singing, dancing Progressive Panda. I think this would really work; at least until someone climbs into the Panda Pit at the Zoo and gets eaten.
so progressive folks were trying to discredit folks! um….is that because they did not want to payout? was the initial case a possible fraud? — so the story is not completely told…if in fact it was a discredit vs a fraud, then shame on them….
What’s wrong? Are you insane? Steve, what’s wrong is that big insurance companies are incentivizing their claims, adjusters, chop shops, and attorneys to reduce payouts on claims at any cost. And, these employees are getting creative (wink/wink) in pursuit of big bonuses, when instead they should be pursuing a strategy of handling claims quickly, and efficiently and most importantly, fairly.
What’s wrong? Your question and your attitude are what is wrong!
Only about 42% of customers are satisfied with their current insurance company. And, only 44% would recommend their current insurance company to friends and family. Only 42% that have had a claim think that they got a “fair” settlement.
That’s what’s wrong with the insurance companies.
http://insurance.freeadvice.com/survey_result.php
survey?! wonder why that survey says 42%…geico has done research and found that 97% of it’s policyholders are satisfied with them…so wonder if that survey is actually accurate…
and it was so easy a caveman can do the research?!
….and less than a half of 1% of policyholders make a complaint to the insurance dept. Why does the math not add up?
TMcitizen64 — you are hilarious and extrmemely stupid but i still have pity for you. When you grow up and maybe pass university, you will understand my question.
And as a prior claims adjuster “my poll” states that 72% of my insured’s and claimants were lying frauds tryingto obtain money at any cost. Nothing wrong with a little sub-rosa to catch the cheaters and fraudsters in action.
While I always prefer to go after those who may cheat the system, I find this particuar investigative tactic disgraceful.
When I go to church, it is supposed be a conversation with my god thru an intermediary (being the priest).
If Progressive wants to use other legimate means (and there many other ways), I’ll all for it but not this type.
This issue isn’t about what’s constitually
or statutorily protected, it’s about fair sense and sensabilities or at least having a modicum of respect of a persons chosen religion.
The writing is on the wall regarding this one folks!
I would like to ask the sub-rosa investigators this question: if you did hear, during this ‘confessional meeting’ that the insured lied, then what? What kind of jury, or judge for that matter, is going to admit this as evidence. The public perception would outweigh the evidence and Progressive loses either way. It does not take a mental giant to realize that information obtained in this manner is horribly wrong, if only from a public relations standpoint. The blogs on this site show that.
What is more distasteful and unsettling than outright fraud?
I have been in the business over 19 years. I am all for stamping out fraud, and using investigators/sub-rosa to find the fraudulent claims and bring them to light. That being said, I find the means this firm used to conduct surveillance disgusting!
I have an extremely hard time accepting the notion that 72% of claimants are trying to committ fraud. If that were true, roughly more than 2 out of 3 Americans are cheats and liars.
Please, try to be real…
So question …Where do we draw the line when it comes to privacy? Should an investigator be able to follow you into a public bathroom stall to make sure that you are not committing fraud? Where does it end?
What is more distasteful than fraud? Going into a house of worship to get evidence of the fraud. Perception, perception, perception. We are the bad guys enough times. Why would we want to go into a church sponsored function to get evidence to deny a claim. It is good to have morals, scruples and all that goes with it but play by the rules. Everyone saw what happened when we tortured prisoners to get much needed information. Perception, perception, perception.
Would a judge have given police a search warrant on someones hunch. Who is committing the fraud here.
Where does it end? A real fight ends when you win or lose. If the bad guy runs into the bathroom, Nice, the fight continues there. Otherwise you just surrender to the bad guy and announce “attention bad guys, go into the bathroom and get away with any fraud”.
Steve is either lying (like his insureds/claimants) or just doesn’t know what he is talking about. There is no legitimate study out there that concludes that 72% of insureds/claimants lie about their claim. As a former claims adjuster, claims manager and now insurance defense attorney, I have at least as much knowledge about this subject as Steve and am willing to guarantee the numbers are not that high.
I could be wrong, but I think Steve was being sarcastic. He basically says in his note that this is made up information. Lighten up.
I don’t condone the methods of Progressive. Here some facts about fraud:
Industry Estimates of Fraud To understand the pervasiveness and impact of insurance fraud, consider the following:
• If insurance fraud were a legitimate business, it would be a TOP Fortune 500 Company
• Insurance fraud is the second largest white-collar crime in the United States, second only to income tax evasion
• Property/casualty insurance fraud cost insurers an estimated $30 billion in both 2004 and 2005, according to the Insurance Information Institute.
• The Property & Casualty industry estimates that 10 to 25 percent of all claims are fraudulent.
Source: Insurance Information Institute
Motivations of Fraud Perpetrators People commit fraud for many reasons. According to a 2003 Accenture Ltd. survey, 49% of people commit fraud because they can get away with it and 30% do it because they need the money.
Other motivations include:
• Financial stress
• Marital problems
• Bankruptcy
• Opportunity
Many people don’t think of insurance fraud as “stealing.” Of the people surveyed in a 2000 Insurance Research Council Poll, 25% believed that it is acceptable to overstate a claim to cover past premiums and 40% believed that it is acceptable to pad a claim to cover a deductible.
If the sub rosa was conducted in a public place with people openly volunteering confessions of wrong doing then I believe any evidence gained would be admissible. However, I gather from the article that the sub rosa in this case was done in a private setting where people had gathered for private confession. I don’t believe a Court would allow evidence gained in this way to be admitted.
Also, there is a creditable school of thought (and not just my cynicism) which says that there is an element, no matter how inconsequential, of fraud in 100% of all claims. Keep in mind, statistically only one tenth of 1% of all fraud is actually even brought to light by the insurance industry because of the fear of defamation suits by those investigated against insurance companies. You practically have to catch a fraud red-handed in order to even begin to have a case that will be heard.
Interesting stats. If they are right, 25% of your premiums are for fraud.
This means that the victims – honest insureds – should either be content with their roll as victims or help the insurance companies get convictions.
P&C Industry Claims Dollars Fraud amounts to about 10-15% of every claim dollar
either way u look at it…fraud is fraud and that costs the insurance company lots of money (as in the stats per a prev entry)…the idea, is we need to have those that commit fraud to start paying back restitution w/interests….these folks know full well that they are doing it illegal and have no care, so why not make it sting!…have them work it off some how to the insurance company and the courts for having to bring them to justice due to the amount of money that is lost…
Steve,
Thank you for your educated response. At least, with my graduate degree in economics, I can spell extremely and not have to work as a claims adjuster that is rewarded for low balling claims and bullying insureds.
Do you still think I’m hilarious?
tmcitizen64: What? You’re not in the claim business? How do you deal with your aggressive tendencies without bullying and low-balling people who present claims? Life must be really empty for you. Good thing you can post to sites like this one.
Sounds like Wudchuck needs this release. Musta just lost a case.
i actually sell insurance for a major company. fraud hurts companies profit! and the costs to find thost that fraud companies is HIGH!
Thanks for clearifying, Wudchuck. However I expect companies to treat the cost of fraud the same as a store treats shoplifting. It’s overhead and it must move downline to the sales price.
true, but so does UM CVG!!!
Well for that matter, so does mandatory auto liability insurance.
When I got into this crazy biz the yearly price for basic limits in Texas was $72. Note that was for a year.
The increase in auto premiums since then is way more than inflation. The increased required limits since 1973 as been almost nothing.
On a procedural note: Don’t you agree that the CEO’s written mea culpa is a clear admission against interest which literally hands the case over to those who were quick to file lawsuits? Seems the only real question in the case after he published his apology is how much money are the greedheads going to get? It may not matter (or be admissible) whether or not the spying revealed any confessions on the part of your plaintiffs. They stand to get a larger quantity of cash with this suit than they ever could in the underlying case. Too bad…wonder if there was fraud in there?
Do you remember the case of the expensive cigar collection? The collection owner insured them with Lloyd’s, London.
Then he smoked the cigars and turned in a claim for fire damage to the stogies.
Lloyd’s contested but then paid the claim after the guy admitted in court that he’s smoked the cigars.
They gave him the claim check. They were prepared with police at hand. They presented him with arson charges, followed by a fraud charge. Both charges stuck.
He got a new tax-paid residence.
OMG Floridian – it was sarcasm / tongue in cheek so to speak. Don’t be such an @ss!
Wow, N.I. you can read and comprehend, I knew I liked you. Now for the other ‘tards on this post….
No tmcitizen64, everyone here still thinks you are a loser.
Why don’t we as agents begin the Polygraph application process test. PAP Test for short. When you come in to sign your application we will have to connect some wires to you and begin asking you the questions, if you fail to answer correctly we will have to deny you coverage. Also we will draw blood and ask for hair follicles to test you for Drugs and Alcohol. Most liars would be caught in the PAP Test which could report to a new underwriting tool. Credit Score, CLUE, MVR and PAP Test will determine your new auto rates based on these 4 factors. We have found if you have BAD Credit, Bad CLUE, Bad MVR and a Bad PAP Test your rates WILL be higher so call Geico they will take you!!!!! Thank You and good day…..
What I don’t understand is how an insurance company will pay $25,000 in attorney fees and litigation costs on a claim that would settle for $15,000. Doesn’t seem like sound economics to me.
the insurance industry sucks. they cheat, rob and steal from shops and employees to boost their bottom line profits. they enslave their employees and break their balls without mercy.
i beg to differ that the industry is out to take money out of your pocket. in the first place, it is a business. secondly it is there for your protection pending how much you want to be protected for. i work in the industry, and for the most part that i have seen, majority of the industry is not sold to make a major profit. the issue we deal with more often is how well do you drive and how many folks are driving without insurance! far too many folks that drive think because they have just tickets and no accidents, they should be lest costly. in reality, they can be more of a risk than the person whom just recently had an accident. the other issue, is why are we gladly handing out driver’s licenses to folks whom may never get insurance for a vehicle they may or may not own. i am glad that north carolina makes it mandatory just to have a license you have to show proof of insurance. but then again, many get the insurance and shortly after getting their license they drop the insurance. but, they don’t realize, that the state suspends licenses for no insurance with a license. yet most folks think they are ok! i think we need to make all drivers show proof of insurance before they get a license or PERMIT! if we get that, we will find rates getting better.
I recently had a car accident going 20 mph and hit a light pole. The Progresssive adjustor is intentionally raising the prices on the damages on my car to total it out instead of just repairing my car. How on earth can you be going 20 mph approaching a red light with foot on break, hit a lightpole and total out a car? This is fraud and I want the Pesident of Progressive to know what kind of people he has working for him. We pay $291.00 per month for full coverage and this si the kind of treaatment we get? Is there anyone who can help me, please?
I am the one mentioned in this blog.
I’m still concerned about what people think about the CASE – NOT ABOUT ME.
http://peter-wallace.blogspot.com/2007/08/private-eyes-sneak-into-church-group.html
http://www.waynegrant.com/AtlantaJournal082207.pdf
http://consumerist.com/consumer/douchebags/progressive-insurance-lies-its-way-into-church-support-group-to-dig-up-lawsuit-dirt-293110.php
I never had a chance to tell my side of the story so, here it goes.
I NEVER recorded anyone else but Mrs. and Mr. Pitts. Only when Mrs. Pitts spoke did I hit the record button on the digital recorder that was hidden in my bra and shut it off when she stop speaking. I only needed to obtain a recording of her talking without studdering which she claims started when she was in a car accident and suffered a brain injury. I caught her talking like there was NO problem. Busted!
I video taped her WALKING WITHOUT HELP from the back of the church to the front of the church, get a “laying of hands” (forgot what it’s actually called), lay down on the floor, get up WITHOUT help and walk all the way back to the church.
She would stand in prayer or when we were asked to stand and sometimes that was up to 5 – 10 minutes.
So, basically, she faked it. She showed up at the attorney’s office acting all “broken” and when the lawyer showed the Pitts and their lawyer the tape and then played the audio clip of her talking, both lawyers went into the hall and settled for a very small portion of what they were wanting.
That really upset the Pitts. Tough teets. So, then they threw a net out to catch anyone they could, that was involved, to sue them. When I got served, they claimed that what my instructor (I was NOT licensed at the time) and I did what I was to TOLD/INSTRUCTED DO to obtain evidence that she was committing insurance fraud caused her not to be able to have sexual relations with her husband and other ridiculous things. Calling what we did “immoral” and “unethical.” You’d have to read it to believe it.
Now, let’s look at this from another angle.
They played on the CHURCH’S kindness and generosity.
Faked injuries to get a big cash settlement.
When people, like the Pitts, do things like that; it drives up insurance premiums.
They lied to the church for personal gain.
We didn’t and we even gave a donation to the church.
She played on peoples emotions.
So, exactly was conducting themselves in an “unethical” and “immoral” way? My conscience is clean on this matter. I can’t seem to find anyone who thinks that what Private Investigators or what the company I worked for was good and just.
I only did what I was told to do, by my Instructor, AS PART OF MY TRAINING.
I want this to go away. I followed my heart and my passion and if she got busted for lying and faking her injuries…poor baby.
They think that hiding in a church is going to save them. Guess what! God is everywhere and sees everything and He knows that what I did was the RIGHT thing.
Sue me for busting con-artists. They deserve it. (Stand in line. I’m no longer a P. I.)
Our Heavenly Father knows what I did and it all comes out in the wash.
No regrets, no regrets. None at all when it comes to this case.
Peace to everyone.
clm mgr,
Yes there was fraud on the Pitts part. Now, their lawyer is suing my former employer for 20 MILLION dollars on the PREACHER’S (Kings) behalf. My former boss let my license lapse and told me NOT to get served in the Progessive case. I did anyway. I have nothing to hide. I did as I was INSTRUCTED during training. They (my former boss and his lawyer) are trying to pin all this on me. My boss’s lawyer said, “When I went into the Bible Study group, that I was a free agent.” I was covered under Merlin’s umbrella. My lawyer friend says, “They are trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. Don’t answer any questions and if you do, tell the truth and that is EXACTLY what everyone is afraid of.
I am not afraid. I, personally, do not think I did anything wrong. I was doing the right things for the right reasons.
Peace to everyone!
i am glad you did your job. i am an insurance agent. it behooves me to think that everyone thinks that big brothers have money.
QUESTION: did they or did they not commit fraud? YES! apparently, they lied and got a smaller settlement.
i am suprised that they have not gone back after them for the fraud or at least by the state. fraud does cost and increases the premiums. i think they decided to sue for the extra stuff because they did not get what they wanted to begin with. i also think that the lawyer was probably upset the he did not get as much money as expected. he figures now, that he can recover one way or another even if they win or lose. this kind of lawsuit is frivilous and should be punished.
WudChuck,
Just two days ago, a lawfirm called my father and the man said he worked as a Private Investigator and wanted to know if I was at my father’s home. I have not called them back. The Pitt’s and all their crap is like a booger you can’t get off of your finger. Why are they after me? My former boss has to be insured by law. He was the one that gave me the order to do what I did so, what do you think they want? What do you think I should do? Flip on my former boss who wants to hang all of this on me?
Anyone else have ideas?
Peace,
Paige
This is another example of “criminals” having rights to waste taxpayers’ money for financial gain.
Dealing with the system during a civil fraud suit inspired me to get a degree in criminal justice with the possibility of a career in fraud investigation.
Look out Pitts, Kings, Brookshires, and all the other sorry citizens who try to take from others illegally. What goes around comes around, and you will get yours.
Our textbook cited a frivilous lawsuit filed by an inmate. This inmate pretended to believe he could get pregnant by having sex with a homosexual. He was suing because the doctor wouldn’t give him birth control pills.
“Only about 2,000 petitions were filed per year in the courts concerning inmate problems (1961). By 1975 that number had risen to approximately 17,000; and in 1996 prisoners filed 68,235 civil rights lawsuits in federal courts nationwide.”
Laurie Asseo, “Inmate Lawsuits,” Associated Press wire service, May 24, 1996; and Bureau of Justice Stastics, “State and Federal Prisoners Filed 68,235 Petitions in U.S. Courts in 1996,” press release, October 29, 1997.
Other petitions were filed because an inmate got only one roll with his dinner; another because he didn’t get a luncheon salad; and a third time because prison- provided TV dinners didn’t come with a drink (Schmalleger, 2007).
Law-abiding citizens need to speak out about such ridiculous actions.
What do any of you think you could do legally to publicize this attempt to “get rich quick”.
Restorative justice in Australia has a good idea that SHAMING offenders produces positive results. We have freedom of speech! Research the law, and legally show the preacher and the Pitts what others think of their greed and alleged dishonesty!
A Philadelphia resident was charged with 62 counts of Insurance Fraud and 22 counts of Identity Theft in his effort to out-smart seven different insurance companies.
The man obtained four automobile insurance policies with Progressive Insurance Company. Days later, the gentleman filed four separate damage claims reporting that all four vehicles had been vandalized. After realizing that the man never even paid for the insurance policies, Progressive denied all claims. Subsequently, Progressive reported all four matters to the District Attorney’s Insurance Fraud Unit.
Investigators uncovered 70 additional insurance claims involving AIG, Allstate, Geico, Progressive, Safe Auto, Safeco and Unitrin Direct. Further investigations revealed that 60 of those claims were denied due to insufficient payment. In addition, 22 of the claims were filed under the identity of an innocent victim.
The man had no shame when repeatedly identifying himself as a police officer, an accountant, a bounty hunter, a soldier and other various professions in order to expedite his claims. The “phantom” was denied over $120,000 in 45 different claims, but received over $29,000 in settlement on 17 fraudulent claims.
The criminal case is pending.
(Philadelphia District Attorney’s Office)
http://www.helpstopfraud.org/content/?/effects/cases&item=4962