Other than it’s broke and you want to increase those costs? Don’t give me that about decreasing costs. Governments never reduce costs. Doesn’t happen. Never. Why take the entire health system down for the benefit of a small percentage of the population? Provide coverage for them without trying to shut down the health insurance industry in favor of government. Government more efficient and cost effective? Are you serious, when? The money tree is bare. We are no longer competitive in the world. We can’t just keep borrowing and killing the future of this country. Liberals and unfortunately many Republicans refuse to understand that this spending is killing us.
You don’t get to pay $17.50 for a $20 ticket to the zoo and say “I don’t like giraffes.”
I sure don’t want my tax dollars going to pay for two stupid wars against peasants in the desert across the world. I’d sure rather pay for healthcare than pay to blow up natives with “beast of Kandahar” classified unmanned drones.
Nowhere is the US Constitution does the governemet have the authority to force the people to buy anything. Just another step towards Obama stupidity known as their version of Utopia.
Actually, none of the hijackers were from Iraq or Afghanistan. In fact most of them were from countries we are allied with and who supply much of our oil. Easy mix-up, though, not your fault, you’ve only had 8 years to learn the facts.
Right, yeah I forgot about how Saudi Arabian hijackers took down the towers on 9/11 so we declared war against Iraq and Afghanistan (but somehow we didn’t stop the military aid to Saudi Arabia).
And the clauses in the Constitution are the Interstate Commerce Clause and the General Welfare clause.
The definition of welfare is “Exemption from misfortune, sickness, calamity or evil; the enjoyment of health and the common blessings of life; prosperity; happiness; applied to persons.”
A recent Harvard study notes 45,000 Americans a year, every year, needlessly die due to lack of health insurance.
Comparing American deaths from lack of health insurance to American civilian deaths from terrorism, I figure I am 99% more likely to be killed by the Republicans than by Al Qaeda.
I love how they always spout that. Question, how many of those uninsured people are here legally? How many just don’t WANT to buy the insurance? How many just waited too long to get the insurance and now can’t because of the pre-exisiting condition? If you have to go to the ER, they can not turn you away if it is a life threating illness. Everyone is bashing insurance companies for excluding coverage for pre-ex conditions, but my question to those people is “Why didn’t you have insurance BEFORE you got sick?” Adverse selection at its finest. If pre-ex was not excluded, no one would buy insurance until they had some expensive bills coming up.
Sorry, the interstate commerce clause does grant Congress authority to regulate private industry. It pertains to cross state line sales of goods and services without prejudice created by the individual states, not companies.
The General Welfare clause is part of the Taxing and Spending clause within the constitution for the payment of National Debts to benefir the Union as a whole not indvidually.
Best check the actual wording before you broad brush the intent.
Matt, why blame the lack of health insurance for the so called “45,000” deaths. Why not blame the doctors and hospitals for not doing the work pro bono?
Statistics are great. Between 35,000 and 40,000 people die each year while driving vehicles. Perhaps we should all stop driving. You are throwing statistics that were developed in a partisan political process onto this forum. Please explain how the 45,000 die from lack of health care. Hospitals and clinics in my area treat those without coverage. Stastically, how do you show that not having healthcare was the cause? Perhaps you can tell us how many people die every year that have healthcare?
A: The bill would significantly change the 2.5 trillion U.S. healthcare system that almost everyone agrees costs too much and leaves too many people without medical coverage. For the first time in U.S. history, citizens and legal residents will be required to purchase a health insurance policy.
“Federal subsidies will be available to help them afford coverage. The subsidies will be available for people with incomes up to 400 percent of the poverty level, about $88,200 for a family of four. The poverty levels for 2009 is $22,050 a year for a family of four and $10,830 for an individual.
GIVE ME A BREAK! WHAT IT MEANS IS YOU AND I WILL GO BROKE PAYING FOR YOUR NEIGHBORS HEALTH INSURANCE AND YOU AND I WILL PAY TWICE AS MUCH FOR HEALTH INSURANCE IF WE HAVE ANY MONEY LEFT OVER AFTER PAYING FOR THESE IDIOTS SPENDING BINGE.
Read the constitution. “Promote the general welfare”. You will notice our founding fathers did not use the word “provide” If they wanted us to pay for your health insurance they would have said PROVIDE for the general welfare. Liberal always try to twist the constitution to fit their agenda which at its essence is against everything our founding fathers wanted when they drew up our constitution and our bill of rights.
Quote: “Comparing American deaths from lack of health insurance to American civilian deaths from terrorism, I figure I am 99% more likely to be killed by the Republicans than by Al Qaeda.”
Many people use statistics pulled from a dark damp place. However, if you stipulate that the “Allahu Akbar” yell is indicative of Al Qaeda which is given equivalency to the Muslim Murderer yell, then you are much more likely to be killed by Al Qaeda. Just ask the Fort Hood guys who were killed in their “gun free zone”.
On the subject of being killed by a person of any given political persuasion, I postulate that you are much more likely to be killed by a Democrat than a Republican, since the Democrats seem to have this moral equivalency thing going on and are more likely to be interested in illegal drugs (note who wants to legalize them).
Since a Democrat is therefore 92% more likely to be on drugs, there is a greater possibility that you will be killed by a Democrat than Al Qaeda. Your statement as quoted at the beginning includes an error because of the party that you selected to compare, but otherwise (as ammended to read “Democrat”), you could be correct.
As other readers have noted, US hospitals treat anyone who walks in, including illegals. We have universal health care in the US now, and it is better than the socialized healthcare in many foreign countries. Note the survival rate statistics for the top 20 countries. I leave as an exercise for the intelligent reader to find authoritative data sources.
When you go to the UK, they stamp your passport with a warning that you have no access to government healthcare. That should answer many questions and clear up many misconceptions about the superiority of government healthcare. After a few years on the inevitable socialized medicine that we will get, there will be many more deaths. Start taking notes.
Hey TX Agent… so for the 8 states that consider being beaten by your spouse a pre-exisitng condition, you agree with this? And for the rest, saying our government shouldn’t require us to buy anything is ridiculous, so basically we shouldn’t be required to pay taxes, or required to license drivers, or require us to register our cars.. and yes the list goes on. So if they require us to pay taxes to better the country, yes they should require us to take care of ourselves as well… which in turn will better our country… Yes your correct in that we should promote and not provide, but you can’t pick and choose where you do this, either promote taxes and health care… or provide it… If you don’t like paying for the country you live in and to better the american population which will in turn save you money, then why don’t YOU go to the countries that offer this… I for one am fine paying for what our country offers… I am not a liberal dumb@ss, a conservative dumb@ss or have any affiliation to any such erroneous partyline… I am an American. d!psh!ts
The 45000 Americans didn’t die because of lack of health care, 45,000 Working Insured Americans died providing health care to uninsured, welfare recipients and illegal immigrants-because we could not afford to feed ourselves after we pay for everyone else.
Me, lets look closer at what you are saying and whether requiring to purchase a private product is constitutional.
Car insurance, you dont have to own a car.
Drivers license – again you are not required to own a car or get a license. It is not a right it is a priveledge.
Pay taxes, you are only required to pay taxes if you make “enough” money. actually almost 35% of the population pays NO federal income tax after their return is filed and the top 10% of earners pay 78% of all taxes collected. NO it is not my words in the US Constitution it is our founding fathers who used the words PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE OF THE CITIZENS” They did not use the work PROVIDE!.
“If you don’t like paying for the country you live in and to better the american population which will in turn save you money, then why don’t YOU go to the countries that offer this… I for one am fine paying for what our country offers… I am not a liberal dumb@ss”
I am sorry but this statement above makes you very well sound like a liberal dumb@ss. Res ipsa loquitur!
This is not healthcare, its liberal takeover by the far left political class. None of us are exempt or will improve from including those that can’t afford health care. For those that follow like puppies and audacious enough to support it (online), it’ll be a sad day when you are told I told you so!
Some quick facts from our left leaning Congressional efforts.
Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for elective funds transfer.
Page 203 Line 14-15 HC: “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.”
Page 341 Lines 3-9: The Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc.
Page 425 Lines22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: The Govt provides an “approved” list of end-of-life resources;
Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to individuals’ finances & a ‘National ID Health card’ will be issued!
Health insurance is the beginning. Once the left has us, companies will fail, the dollar will fail and this country will fail.
Journal your daily activities so your kids and grandkids will have a concept of what a GREAT COUNTRY this used to be…
So it’s my privledge to own a car, yet I am required to register it you say… Therefore the logic is sound when I say, it is your priviledge to have a child in america, yet you are require to insure it… I’m not saying these things are cut and dry, all I’m saying is that there is alot of work to do in every sector and if nothing gets done because there are “sides” that are mongering over how much money “they” personally will lose then we all lose. If we don’t require everyone to get insurance to save countless lives, please let us know how to save these lives and run for a seat and I will vote for you.
I JUST LOVE IT WHEN YOU CHILDREN FIGHT!!!!
AS A SMALL BUSNESS OWNER-32 YEARS- AT TIMES I COULD NOT AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE FOR ALL MY EMPLOYEES. THEY DID NOT NOR DO THEY THINK IT IS THEIR “RIGHT” THAT I PROVIDE FOR THEM FOR HEALTH INSURANCE. I THINK THAT IF SMALL BUSINESSES MUST PROVIDE HEALTH INSURANCE FOR EMPLOYEES THEN HAVE THE EMPLOYEE PAY THE LARGEST AMOUNT OF SAY 80-90% OF THE PREMIUM AND LET’S SEE WHO TAKES THIS INSURANCE!!!!
I THINK ILLEGALS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED HEALTH INSURANCE UNLESS, IT IS LIFE THREATENING. OH, WAIT, ILLEGALS CAN GET FREE HEALTH COVERAGE NOW IN OUR STATE BY GOING TO THE ER. SILLY ME, I’M, BAD!!!
Ok Me. Let me try again to explain the problem there is with the mandated purchase of health insurance with the US Constitution!
You are not required to register your car, because the Government does not require you to purchase a car. (get it)
The Government does not require you to have a child. But if you do you must provide for it. (NOT ME)
Right now you have what you are after, universal health care. Get sick and go into a hospital and see if you get treated. No one is dieing because of lack of healthcare. That is just liberal propaganda. The liberals say that illegal alliens will not get the healthcare. But right now they are, So who is the heartless people. Conservatives who promote the current health care system with changes that save money or the Liberals who dont want to provide for illegal alliens but want you and I to pay for everyone else.
Hopefully you understand now why I say the US Constitution does not allow this plan to happen. It is unconstitutional, and the law should be overturned if passed the way it is.
Seriously, go to France if you want healthcare and welfare for everyone. The rest of us will stay in America and enjoy the benefits of our freedom along with all the risks (including paying for my health) that freedom brings as well.
I think it’s hilarious that quite a few people on here feel that they shouldn’t be paying for ‘someone else’s healthcare’, yet they already are. Anyone on here who thinks they don’t need any help with their medical coverage has their head up their @ss. They’ll be the FIRST one in line for this government healthcare when they are DROPPED from their current coverage as soon as they are diagnosed with a major medical condition. Then, we’ll see a lot of those same people packing their bags heading for Europe to get some much needed coverage they aren’t going to get over here.
You have used a word that many people have no love of or respect for…freedom.
Freedom. That quickly eroding circumstance that formerly set the United State of America apart from the rest of the world.
Freedom. That quality of life that tyrants hate.
It is sad. My grandson will not know the freedom to make his own choices, good or bad.
True compassion will cease to exist. Without freedom, that human condition will vanish. No longer will one do the right thing because you want to do it. Instead, you will be fined or taxed if you don’t do the “socially approved right thing.”
The US Constitution does say “promote” not “provide” the general welfare. But,how can we expect the meanings of the words to be understood when we have reduced education from learning to feeling?
At least we know the price for selling a Senator’s soul – $100 million for Nelson; $300 million for Landreau.
FYI my profession is an insurance agency owner for 25yrs. This is a obviously a very emotional subject. But I would like to post a few thoughts. First, all of who pay for insuance currently pay for the uninsured. The uninsured access health care now mainly through ER at hospitals. This by the way is the most expensive way to obtain treatment and also indicates that these individual’s medical condition is advanced. Preventative care is much cheaper.Remember our taxes already pay for 65> and Federal employees. The uninsured also create an unsafe enviroment in relation to contagious diseases which again effect all of our healyh and is very expensive to our economy in lost work time. There is much more negatives and cost that is not being discussed as result of not having access to healthcare causes.
So, I’ve come to the conclusion that our government is completely dumb and inept at getting anything right…….well, most things.
So other than a government run health plan option and higher taxes, what should be done about our current system? Right now our admin costs are hovering around 30% and GDP is aournd 16-17%. Other rich, industrialized, FREE countries are at 8% GDP and less while their admin costs are at 5% or less.
I understand that Tort reform and the ability to purchas across state lines is a start but, this alone will not stop the costs to increas over time.
Please note that you do not get a lot of coverage over in Europe, nor is it “free”. No where is care as good as it is here. Ever ask yourself why Canadians and others come here for medical care? The US sucks according to many, but “they” never explain whey everyone wants to come here.
If people get cancelled it will be because of the taxes that they put on the insurance companies to pay for the free health care here.
Just wait and see what happens when the new law goes into effect. There will be lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth… but alas, too late. Until they see the gates of hell, very few believe.
OK, I understand the unconstitutional aspect of this.. and actually agree on that side of things.. problem I have is not necessarily the legalality, it’s that nothing in this country is getting done, people are choosing sides and are not looking at every angle, only the one that benefits them most.
illegal aliens, yes they should receive care, but they should also receive penalty by coming to america illegally after their care where we work a treaty out with the country to put them behind bars no less then 1 year in their home country all the while they are doing labor to pay their hospital fees. When they pay the bill and their transportation costs, they go free in their country.
healthcare should either be required for every parent to hold on their child until they have a plan of their own or at the age of 21 at the least or don’t have children, simple. pre-existing conditions should not be cause for no coverage.. if our courts can judge a person to be put to death allow them to judge on these as well before denial, additionally.. let’s really regulate the hospitals. Every part of the totem pole of our government is regulated by another… why should american’s health be any different. Our money is regulated but yet our health pretty much is not, makes no sense to me.
These are the types of things we should be working on
Rod, I could not agree more with you. Wasnt it funny how in the middle of the night it changed from “Healthcare reform” to “Health Insurance Reform”. We really need to focus on reducing cost, not creating a new government program destined to fail and drive us into the poor house. The current legislation being proposed does little if anything to reduce costs. How about tort reform, how about alowing us to get the drugs at the same cost as any other country can get it. How about a set fee schedule for services, how about providing a standardized policy that is required like we have in homeowners and auto insurance. Prexisting conditions should be covered but within a period of time to prevent someone from waiting until they get sick to purchase a policy. How about doing away with cobra and allow you to purchase the coverage for the same price you were paying with your employer before you got sick. There are numerous issues with the current system but it is still better than what they are proposing, a socialist government with a over bearing powerful central government dictating and taxing us into poverty. If we are not careful we will become a 3rd world country, a banana republic soon.
Here is a start and I am sure everyone else could come up with something else.
REAL Health Care Reform:
Insurance companies need standardized policies, coverage A B or C. like homeowners policies now are standardized in all states. They need an excess profit law which states they are entitiled to raise their rates only to the point of a 5% profit. Like Workers comp in many states.
Doctors need not make over a million dollars a year. They should be required to not own a physical therapy clinic or medical testing lab in conjunction with their medical practice. They should be required to accept a fee schedule by Health and Human Services average. If they chose to be exempt which they should be able to, they can not collect from an insurance company.
Drug makers, should be required to sell us their drugs for the same amount they sell in other countries. They should not be allowed to make billions on any one drug and not be allowed to contribute to the AMA or provide any incentive to a doctor for the prescriptions they write.
Way to strawman. I am of the belief that the Fed government should only be in charge of two things. National Defense and making currency. Let the states make the other rules. I mind paying my taxes, but I do not want the government to tax me to death. I don’t want the government to take my whole paycheck because “We will provide everything for you” No, I work hard, so I want my money so I can deside how I am going to live.
We may pay for the uninsured. We don’t pay for the 100’s of additional overpaid government employees required to manage socialized medicine. That will come at a much greater cost.
Once this is implemented, large businesses push the cost to the customer, small businesses try, but fewer are buying. Small businesses go bankrupt and more people are out of a job.
This creates less money in circulation, less taxes and less available money for states and federal government.
The govt steps in and pics up the pieces because capitalism does not work…. (by the leftist point of view)
Once that occurs, you are completely supported by the govt.
This is basic economics. You are adults and should know these things.
Remember this article in a few years so you can tell yourself, He was right – or better yet -The Right was Right!
Bottom line, this bill takes away more of our FREEDOM. Without FREEDOM who cares about health care? PLEASE REMEMBER THIS BILL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HEATHCARE. SO STOP DEBATING IT. IT HAS TO DO WITH TAKING OVER 1/6 OF OUR ECONOMY AND INSTALLING SOCIALISM. It does nothing to decrease the cost of healthcare (tort reform, etc.) which is the real problem.
This bill has nothing to do with healthcare. How can anyone say it is with a straight face? It’s about power and control. 45% of doctors will quit if this bill passes, and we already have a doctor shortage in many areas. We will pay more, yes, and not for better coverage, helping the poor, or even insuring the illegals… we will be paying more for red tape, hassels, and health panels that will decide if you should go to a specialist or stay home with antibiotics.
My son has downs syndrome… numerous items in this bill scares me, but no amount of money scares me as much as the health panel made up of bureaucrats (not doctors) who will be deciding if my son gets treatment. They don’t know him or watch him grow – how do they know what he needs? How will they know a sign something’s wrong? How do they put a value on his life?
This is a nightmare! I am neither rep or dem – I am a conservative constitutionalist. This bill is neither fair or just. I never thought I would see the day – every day I wake up and realize my beloved America decays a little every day.
Nice! Good to see someone coming up with ways or ideas other than just name calling or saying ring wing this or left wing that. (Even though I’m guilty of that on here). I think we need to move past that and identify what our current problems are in our health care/insurance system and find alternatives other than what has failed in the house and senate votes.
What do you think if we took what you said and also have a legislative body just step in as a negotiator between the health insurance companies and the medical service providers? There could only be one fixed price for all services and procedures and there couldn’t be large motivation for profit. The unemployed would be on a system something like Medicaid until they found employment and even that would run out in a year while someone unemployed is looking for a job.
Anyone would be able to pick and choose their doctors as they see fit through an exchange. No waiting for anything. Medical and insurance costs go down and then America’s cost to GDP is around 8% or better and admin costs are about 12% or so.
Only problem with this is whole thing is there would be to be some sort of mandate to purhase insurance to help pool the cost and make it AFFORDABLE FOR EVERYONE. Besides, everyone is either going to purchase health insurance through their employer or on their own at some point or another.
Would this work and does anyone think this is still too much government?
I have made this comment once before but I will say it again, the government does not do insurance well. Here are some examples:
West Virginia WC – Bagged it because they never charged adequate rates and almost went bankrupt.
TennPlan- Healthcare plan similar to the public option. Almost bankrupted the state and all its providers because everyone opted for the TennPlan which paid its providers below cost.
Mass health – initial budget 3 years ago, 100mm. Now – 700mm.
CA WC plan – ticking time bomb of underreserved liabilities and not enough surplus.
FL insurance Guarantee Assc.- Property Insurer of last resort – significantly low premiums that can not cover the cost of the next big cat loss. Enables people to build house where they don’t belong.
National Flood Insurance Plan – same as above. Rates too low and the next big cat will ruin it. Legislation is now up to have other state pay for Florida’s poor choice of building in bad places and not paying adequate rates.
Social Security – do I need to say anything?
So what makes people feel think government is the solution? they are consistently irresponsible when it comes to adequate rate making. The heart is in the right place (I hope) but we can’t insure all risk away. We should all no that better than any other reaadership.
They can help us find a solution but a major overhaul?
Also Demonizing, liberals, conservatives, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, medical device makers…… is not helpful. Although I am tempted at times, when I step back and think about it, it does not help anything but make for an interesting pi$$ contest.
I am afraid for people like you and your son. There is alot wrong with the status quo and alot we could be doing to get it right. The new law they are passing does nothing to reduce costs and everything to do with a take over of our freedoms. I am so very afraid of what our new president and congress is doing to our Country. I cannot wait until next November to get out and support any republican I can against my Democrat Senator here in Florida. I am going to give money and my time to anyone who runs against him! I am fed up!
Mandate to purchase health insurance is unconstitutional. The government is to “promote the general welfare” of the Citizens. not “Provide the general welfare”. Everything else is moving in the right direction which is cost reductions. That is what we need, reduce the cost and you reduce the premium. Just look at Florida’s WC system. in 2004 we inacted legislation reducing attorney involvement and our rates have been reduced 64% since 2004. Killing my pocket book but good for the citizens of Florida.
One important debate is over reimportation of drugs. Here is a novel idea that i can’t beleive our leaders have thought of. How about making it illegal for any pharmaceutical company to sell their medication less than the lowest price offered anywhere else in the world?
It seems to me Americans are paying for the rest of the world to get all the medicine we develop here. That should even the playing field.
GL Guru, Oh that would mean the cost of drugs to Africa would go up a little. Cant you see the liberals saying that we have to pay for the poor people of the worlds drugs that means (THE ENTIRE WORLDS MEDICIE WE ARE SUBSIDIZING). When are we going to understand we are supporting the whole world, last week we agreed to pay 100 billion a year for our green house gas emmissions. So lets get this right, where is that money going? huh. The UN or the World bank? My God, would someone please impeech our president and congress. This “change” is just way too much for a logical person to take.
As far as requiring individuals to purchase health insurance, absolutely we should require them to purchase it. We have had mandatory auto insurance for years because the risk to others of injury is likely when driving an automobile.
The risk is GIVEN, it’s just a matter of “when” you’ll need medical treatment….if you don’t require people to have it, and then the insurers can’t deny for preexisting conditions, everyone would just wait until they got sick to purchase coverage.
The need for medical care at some point in your life, for accident, injury or illness, is a given. Those that don’t purchase it, and then soak off the system, cost us insurance consumers money, when we have to pay for their uncompensated care.
One problem it is unconstitutional to require someone to purchase a product from a private company. Let me explain.
You do not have to own a car, not required so you dont have to buy and pay a registration tax. Owning a car is a priviledge not a right.
The risk is a given, but not to you if you purchase your own coverage. It is a free country still even with our new president, whether he wants it to be or not.
Our Constitution is the only thing standing in the way of Communism right now. The legislative branch and the Executive Branch of our government right now would vote to become socialist or communist today if they could. The Judicial Branch and our Constitution is the only thing standing in their way.
It’s obvious that Reverend Obama has found sufficient payoff/bribery for all of the Democrats vote. Democrats have been stealing candy from the candy store since January 20, and they just can’t control themselves.
I am rejoicing in the fact that they are signing the health legislation so quickly. It will give Americans 10 months between now and November to learn what the bill will really do, and by then Dems will have signed their own Death Certificate.
As to the Democrats who support Obama, and who actually have employer provided healthcare (and a job)who support this legislation, I say “give it time”…..when you have to open your wallet to pay for this, you’ll wonder why you voted for this Community Organizer, who knows nothing but how to avail himself of government benefits.
Women who are 9 months pregnant standing outside in the winter for a swine flu shot? Billions of dollars thrown at Big Pharma to produce a vaccine that they so far have failed miserably at providing. Already recalled by one manufacturer for the mercury free version given to kids: they said “don’t worry, it wasn’t as effective as we thought” but it turns out “we didn’t need it to be that effective?”….another manufacturer has recalled in Canada after an alarming number of anaphalactic allergic reactions in one batch….
We don’t need Pap smears or mammograms anymore either, remember? Think it’s a coincidence? I think not. That’s the government deciding what is best for you.
Bill, I agree that the Constitution is but a nuisance to the current president and congress, and I agree that they are moving away from personal freedoms and desiring greater reliance upon the government. But fortunately, these personality types will be but a distance memory soon, due to their extreme views.
I can see that if you choose to own a vehicle, you are agreeing to purchase everything that goes along with that….maintenance, taxes, insurance. But the origin of Motor Vehicle Financial Responsibility laws was to hold the negligent driver financially responsible for property damage and bodily injury.
Every citizen and non citizen alike bears the risk of medical expenses. The logical result, based on physician’s Hippocratic Oath, is that the non purchasers of insurance shove their lack of responsibility off onto the responsible citizen, AND NOW THE TAXPAYER, as they go about seeking the freebies that they didn’t want to pay for.
Uninsured citizens and non citizens are now subjecting the taxpayer to increased taxes, and that’s where I draw the line. Where’s the protection for the tax payer? Why are you sticking up for the irresponsible here???
If you don’t want to require the purchase of insurance, call it an Uninsurance Surtax, and require them to pay more in Federal Tax, as a downpayment on their future needs.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/RaiseKids/1-in-4-must-fight-for-jobless-checks.aspx
Everyone complaining about
excessive government intervention: how fast will you run to your state rep. to complain and ask for help when you or a family member is officially laid off and the boss tells unemployment you were fired for wrongful misconduct. You will have no money coming in until your case can be heard in front of a mediator. Then you could lose if the mediator believes the boss and not you! As an added bonus,you do not qualify for COBRA if the boss says you were fired for misconduct. Try paying $500 – $1000 a month for health insurance on your own, on top of all your usual bills, with not one red cent coming in.
The ends don’t justify the means. We could move forward with tort reform,sales of insurance across state lines and actually improve insurance while lowering costs. The current bills in the House and Senate do exactly the opposite. They increase costs over and reduce coverage to the individual.
This is not health care reform. It is a political power grab.
Bill – I agree that mandating someone to purchase coverage is not constitutional but, some of what you proposed like “Doctors need not make over a million dollars a year. They should be required to not own a physical therapy clinic or medical testing lab in conjunction with their medical practice.”
To a point, this is unconstitutional as well. Or at the least, government involvement and thus lead many to believe it could be a government take over.
So, if a mandate were in place and it did drive down costs and keep costs in check, how is that a bad thing?
What do you think if we took what you said and also have a legislative body just step in as a negotiator between the health insurance companies and the medical service providers? There could only be one fixed price for all services and procedures and there couldn’t be large motivation for profit. The unemployed would be on a system something like Medicaid until they found employment and even that would run out in a year while someone unemployed is looking for a job.
Anyone would be able to pick and choose their doctors as they see fit through an exchange. No waiting for anything. Medical and insurance costs go down and then America’s cost to GDP is around 8% or better and admin costs are about 12% or so.
Only problem with this is whole thing is there would be to be some sort of mandate to purhase insurance to help pool the cost and make it AFFORDABLE FOR EVERYONE. Besides, everyone is either going to purchase health insurance through their employer or on their own at some point or another.
Would this work and does anyone think this is still too much government?
What do you mean, ‘have to open your wallet and pay’?? Really? Since when do you think that this is something new? It has been going on for quite some time and I’m shocked that you haven’t noticed. There are so many things incorrect with the statements you’ve made. I feel for you and the sources you have.
I agree whole heartedly except you stress the words United States and not the citizens, which I agree with you is problematic, I think the word “Promote” the general wellfare, used in the Preamble of the Constitution does not rise to the same level as “Provide” for the general wellfare which it states in Article 1, section 8. of the Constitution. I think this is certainly going and should go to our Supreme Court.
The preamble to the Constitution states:
“We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Article 1, Section 8 states:
“The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.”
Interpretation
The author of this article has split the “Taxing and Spending Clause” into two parts instead of treating it as one, as some people do, taking no issue per se with the power to spend. Separate treatment is being given in this series to the troubling items within the larger clause, spending for the “general welfare,” and “taxing.”
This article has a Libertarian take on the meaning of “general welfare.” Some grounds for this interpretation can be found in history, but the argument boils down to the danger to liberty in government actions intended to help people through redistribution and projects that the private sector could very well accomplish
I stress the words “United States” as this is the clause often stated as giving the Congress authority to reform healthcare for the people (as well as the Commerce clause). The Preamble is just that, a preamble; stating the purpose for the Constitution.
My interpretation of “general welfare of the United States” is as a strict constructionist; for the good of the country as a whole, not specific individuals. By applying this clause to individuals, the Duties, Imposts and Excises would not be uniform throughout the United States, as each individual has unique circumstances and needs.
Mark, I agree that the United States is not the citizens but believe that the high court would rule more specifically that the premeble is extremely important and as you state define the purpose of the Constitution and actually trumps Section 8 article 1. in that the purpose is to promote the general welfare and not provide for it as Section 8 states.
Either way I think you will see this thing go to the high court within a year.
Mark, I would also note that the Louisiana purchase and the Nebraska, lets make a deal part of the legislation, is without a doubt flying in the face of Section 8 article one where it states that the taxes imposed for the general welfare are to be uniform in all areas of the United States. So how do claim medicaid is for the purpose of the General wellfare and give tax dollars to Louisiana and Nebraska but not to all states.
Is this really the change you veoted for??? I hope you are going to do something the Senators did not. READ THE BILL. I can guarantee you, it will scare you to death. The devil is always in the details and NO ONE has read the details. When do we all wake up and realize where we are headed?
Regarding opening your wallet and paying, I’m not aware of any time in the past in which my Federal Tax Dollars went to support my neighbors health insurance premiums and medical bills (with the exception of Medicare and Medicaid of course) If this has been going on, please fill me in.
Is everyone happy that we as a nation spend twice as much as other leading, rich, free, industrialized countries and get less? We’re a laughing stock right now and it’s because of all the fear mongering going on that your hear in the media from the right. They want to get paid. Don’t you see it?
You want to tell me that predjudice against pre-existing conditions, policy recisions and high costs are just fine for this country?
You want to tell me that when your insurance policy fails to cover an ailment for yourself or loved one it’s ok to get a divorce so your ex-spouse can go on Medicaid to recieve care? This is what makes our country great?
I’m sorry. But if your in favor of what we have now and do not like reform, you are just plain stupid.
Laughing stock???? NO!!! We are not a laughing stock exept for the idiot we voted into office! Most of our allies feel sorry for us – no one ever believed America would lose its freedoms! Many British have seen the road we are travelling because they already did!
Stupid to not give up freedom????? Have you even read the bill – or are you another politician????
As far as pre-existing conditions go, I see both sides. What else would motivate a healthy person to buy health insurance??
The high costs come from friends of the left – lawyers and unions (who by the way will be even richer after this deal). Obama wants to stop the bad insurance companies… guess their worse than the drug companies because he formed an alliance with them. This is a power grab!! You still believe it about healthcare and all the fake stories you’ve heard!!
We are a laughing stock because other FREE, RICH, IDUSTRIALIZED nations make their helth work and it costs half as much as ours. EVERYONE is covered even if you loose your job.
There is no both sides to pre-existing conditions. You can already have had insurance for years, loose your job and try to get a individual plan that is better than COBRA while your looking for a new job. Guess what? It’ll never happen.
Of all our social programs in place now – police, fire, public schools, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, what freedoms have we EVER lost?
Yes, I suppose they do spend half as much and cover everyone… just takes six months to see a doctor or a year for a MRI. America has the best healthcare in the world. There is no crisis.
And yes, there are two side to the pre-existing condition part (which I know all to well):
1 side is if they cover them, what motivates healthy people to buy insurance?
Other side is if they don’t, they are seen as heartless and cruel.
We are losing bits and pieces of our freedom every day. The assult on capitalism and the free market the last few years proves that more are yet to come. This healthcare grab is a way to get their foot in the door. One of the healthcare bills released when the public option was strong actually wanted to make it illegal to buy private health insurance after 2012. Wake up AMERICA – your freedoms are being taken little by little every day. All the things the government is getting its hand into (i.e. caps on bonuses, taking over car companies, requiring gun licensing, cap and tax, healthcare, etc. etc.) is just a way to get a foot in the door.
Everything you said is false. Where is it in the bill that it will be illegal to buy private health insurance after 2012? I’m curious to see where you heard this from.
If you do a bit of research you’ll find that in Taiwan, Germany, Switzerland and Japan who all have universal health care, there is no waiting for anything. The UK has gate keepers for specialist but the wait time now is the same as ours. It used to be worse but Parliment imposed measures and marketing techniques to improve it.
The liberals think only the government can do this and all the other takeover items on the agenda right now. I see no evidence that the government in place now or for the past any number of years has this capability. Get real.
Since I don’t see anyone offering an alternative I’ll give you one.
What do you think we have a legislative body just step in as a negotiator between the health insurance companies and the medical service providers? There could only be one fixed price for all services and procedures and there couldn’t be large motivation for profit or any profit of all. The unemployed would be on a system something like Medicaid until they found employment and even that would run out in a year while someone unemployed is looking for a job.
Anyone would be able to pick and choose their doctors as they see fit through an exchange. No waiting for anything. Medical and insurance costs go down and then America’s cost to GDP is around 8% or better and admin costs are about 12% or so.
This is something similar to what other FREE, RICH, INDUSTRIALIZED nations do and it works for government spending and patients recieving the care.
Allan, have you been paying attention to all the left wing programs, taxes, fees and regulations being promulgated by Congress and the Administration. It’s not paranoia if they really are after you. We will end up with Great Britain tax burden levels if all of the or even part of them pass. It frightens me and I don’t scare that easily.
I don’t agree with taxing the richest 1% and tax on cadillac plans. I think they could have thought harder on how to do it. I don’t mind tax on plastic surgies that include boob jobs, botox, tanning or any of those. Who cares.
However, I do agree with going back to the tax schedule of what we were paying during the Clinton administration. It didn’t hurt that much.
So, again is there one person that can tell me what or where we have lost our freedom?
What about the right to prosper??? Between taxes and bonus/salary caps that right is being taken too. I have news for you. The doctors have a right to make profit. Why else would anyone go through at least 8yrs of extra schooling? The mean old insurance companies have the right to make money too. There are already laws in place about the profit ratio vs number of insureds. Some companies charge too much for the coverage and get fined. I believe those fines should be steeper to avoid gauging the consumers. Enforce the laws we already have.
The part about the private insurance being illegal after 2012 was something I read in the bill itself. It was one line in a 1000 pg+ monstrosity that probably went unnoticed. I’m sorry I do not remember if it was the house or senate version. It was the first one released. There have been so many closed door revisions, no one knows what’s in it anymore.
Anytime you start to get ahead, the government slaps another tax on you and thinks it’s time to redistribute the wealth. I just started my own business. I’ve struggled my entire life. I just start to make it and the government is going to tax me out of business. I gave you many instances of freedoms we’re slowly losing. You just want to spew the leftist talking points and call me a rightwinger!
So you want to have a middle man between the insurance company and the doctor??? For what purpose? Remember that even this legislation purports to control administrative functions and you’re wanting to add another layer of administrative function. What’s the benefit. The doctor’s and insurers now the reasonable cost of medical services and no government official is needed to intervene.
As to “one fixed price” for a medical service, a kidney transplant isn’t a kidney transplant. And an open reduction internal fixation isn’t always exactly the same. Which is why we don’t want to “flat rate” medical procedures…because if you need 8 screws in your ankle, and the government only pays for four, you’re going to get four.
As to turning the medical profession into a “low profit” or “non profit”, I’m wondering exactly who you think is going to be willing to pay big bucks to attend Harvard Medical School? Afterall, if there’s no profit in it, and you have to go several hundred thousands of dollars into debt for the degree, you’re probably going to choose another profession.
Which is the problem with this legislation……we will dumb down the medical profession, which is exactly what makes our country’s health system one of the best in the world.
Oh, so you just started your own business huh? How’s the pricing and exclusions on your health inurance plan?
The bonus and salary caps are regarding the health insurance companies. Not businesses like yourself.
The doctors, nurses, EMT’s and everyone else deserves to make and exceptional living and be able to afford a nice Benz. You can do all of that at the hospital level, make money, not suffer care and not make a huge amount of profit doing it. Other countries already do this. Except Germany. But their overhead costs are lower, malpractice insurance runs about $1,100 a year and they go to med school for free.
Not EVERYTHING has to make a profit ya know. What would you say if the Red Cross went public so they can profit off of their services? Something is wrong with that picture.
And the part about the private insurance being illegal after 2012 would have been picked up by Fox News, Ann Coulter, Rush, Mark Levine and everyone else on the right. Why wasn’t it? Maybe because you misinterpret it wrong or it never existed.
Alan, I am sure you are decent fellow, I have read a few of your posts, I can tell you lean left with regards to healthcare and your political positions. I would love to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, but all of his actions tell a different story with regards to his motives on healthcare, his economic plan or lack thereof. He has proven through his appointments and political posturing that a bipartisan healthcare reform, the one in which you are calling for which I commend you on is never going to happen and never was the plan. What scares me is that we cannot afford to give someone democrat or republican the benefit of the doubt when it comes to what is constitutional or not. Every leader of our great nation must not be allowed to “change” the structure of our great nation. Every action by Obama and our current congress has shown me that they care nothing as to what is constitutional but quite the opposite. They want a very strong central Government that provides for all citizens and will provide “social economic justice”, their words not mine.
All I ask is you google Cloward-Piven. These were Harvard professors who Obama has studied in the past in college and who he has quoted many times in the past. I know you will as many liberals will discount this as conspiracy theory.
UNFORTUNATELY WE DONT HAVE THE LUXURY TO BE WRONG WITH PLACING OUR FAITH IN OBAMA NOT BEING A MOVEON.ORG COMMUNIST OR SOCIALIST. WE CANNOT RISK OUR NATION AND OUR CONSTITUTION TO SOMEONE WHO WILL NOT TELL US THEIR ULTIMATE PLAN FOR BANKRUPTING OUR COUNTRY AND CREATING A VISION OF SOMETHING WE DID NOT AS A COUNTRY SIGN ON FOR.
BE CAREFUL AS TO DISMISSING FACTS PRESENTED AS WE ALL KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT THIS COMMUNITY ORGANIZER WITH ONE TERM IN THE SENATE WITH VERY LITTLE HISTORY AND EXPERIENCE IN LEADERSHIP.
Hey, I thought I’d add this little tid bit about the AMA ENDORSING the Health Bill. It seems that Doctors are also fed up with the way the health care system is working… ahem, NOT!
Why is not agreeing with someone conservative immediately referred too as left or liberal? Is there anything considered rational anymore?
I’ll check out your Cloward-Piven person as I have an open mind.
I don’t agree with everything that Obama or politicians in office have done or how they went about doing it or getting it done. I’ll even vote against Obama if there is someone better qualified.
Correction: Columbia University professors, not Harvard.
Obama has studied this strategy for years and was obsessed with it in college from what some have said. The strategy is to overwelm the country with wellfare and social programs to the point that it falls into a socialist system by a majority demand of the population. In order to do this you need the establishment of major social programs that overwelm the financial systems and our tax structure as well as subvert the US constitution which calls for a small central government and states rights. Google it to find out more.
Cloward and Piven Strategy – Obama studied and has called it a great example of how we can establish “social economic justice”.
I could agree with that statement. After seeing how this whole bill went down I’m starting to think that our government is inepet and not very capable of doing just about anything anymore.
Perhaps you shouldn’t quote stats that are nearly 10 years old and which were never entirely accurate to being with.
Taken DIRECTLY from WHO website:
“The World Health Organization’s ranking of the world’s health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task”
Any other worthless stats you’d like to grace us with?
We need to demand they start over and REDUCE OUR COSTS of healthcare. Congress is now out in the open, for sale, Nebraska and Louisiana we just purchased with our tax money.
Alan, your right Congress is enept and we are all going to suffer the consequences of this poorly constructed and not well thought out bill. Now it is just pass any bill no matter what.
This legislation represents 1/6 our total economy. I think we need to get it right for us, not big pharma, health Insurers, AARP or any other special interest group.
The only one who loses in the current legislation is all of us!
UK: Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 8.4
Japan: Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 7.9
Switzerland: Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 11.3
Germany: Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 10.4
Taiwan: Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 8
USA:Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 15.3
These are the top richest, FREE western democracies in the world. And almost everyone with the exception of Germany & Switerland beats us almost by half in cost to GDP on health care. They cover everyone regardless of what situation, pre-existing condition or whatever and you can’t loose your health care if you loose your job.
Bobbie–
is it a waste of money to keep our country safe? If someone is willing to strap a bomb to their child and send them into a crowd of innocent people, is it a waste of money to try to stop them? are people that will fly planes into buildings worth fighting? is removing a dictatorship built on terrorizing, raping, gasing, and executing its own citizens a waste of money? Is fighting an organization which bars women from attending schools and harbors known terrorists a waste of money?
Absolutely it is NOT a waste of money. Just next time have a plane when doing it. The plan W. had sucked @***.
During WWII the Allies I think spent around 2 years planning on what to do with Germany afterwards. W. spent what? 2 or 3 months planning what to do with Iraq. Then the people he sent in to clean up weren’t even qualified.
IF the stats were correct on percent of gdp spent on healthcare, perhaps the reason why the US is higher, is because we have better healthcare?????? Perhaps spending the smallest amt on healthcare means it isn’t a very big priority to that country. After all, four screws in your ankle are cheaper than 8.
Do you still want to convert 1/6 of our economy into a non profit?????
“all of who pay for insuance (sic) currently pay for the uninsured”… true enough, but it would be more correct to say all taxpayers currently pay for the uninsured.
“The uninsured access health care now mainly through ER at hospitals. This by the way is the most expensive way to obtain treatment”… “Many uninsured have primary care doctors which they see for non-emergency care. Just because someone is not insured does not mean they cannot afford doctor’s fees for basic care. Some who are insured also use the ER as their primary physician, seeking treatment for stomach aches, and low fevers, etc., thus increasing all our premiums. After some patient evaluation, ERs should be able to turn away non-emergency patients, if there is a local 24-hour clinic available.
“and also indicates that these individual’s medical condition is advanced”… Pure speculation; as I said above, some insureds go to the ER for treatment of stomach aches, and low fevers, etc.
“Remember our taxes already pay for 65>”… true, but not necessarily Constitutional.
“and Federal employees”… Also true, but they are employees; our taxes also pay their salaries. Would you prefer they work for free?
“The uninsured also create an unsafe enviroment (sic) in relation to contagious diseases which again effect all of our healyh(sic)”… Uninsured does not equate to walking around with communicable disease, anymore than insured equates to completely disease free.
The key issue with the healthcare bills is one of Constitutionality, and States’ Rights. Just because prior, unconstitutional programs have been created in the past, does not justify creating more. You know, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.”
Additionally, there is no Constitutional authority for the Federal government to regulate, legislate or mandate health insurance for individuals. The General Welfare clause states “The Congress shall have Power To… provide for the common Defence (sic) and general Welfare of the United States”. Notice it reads “of the United States”, not of the citizens.
Now, since there is no Constitutional authority for the Federal government to regulate health insurance, and taking into consideration the Tenth Amendment, which states “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”, it is my humble opinion that the Federal government is usurping Constitutionally protected State powers, and should therefore immediately cease and desist this action.
“And the part about the private insurance being illegal after 2012 would have been picked up by Fox News, Ann Coulter, Rush, Mark Levine and everyone else on the right. Why wasn’t it? Maybe because you misinterpret it wrong or it never existed.”
No, it definitely did exist, and all of them, including Rush, Hannity, Levine, ALL of them, were livid and ranting about it on a daily basis. I know because I listen to them all every day, and I was livid about it too. So yes, it did exist, in one of the early incarnations of this monstrosity of a bill.
“all of who pay for insuance (sic) currently pay for the uninsured”… true enough, but it would be more correct to say all taxpayers currently pay for the uninsured.
“The uninsured access health care now mainly through ER at hospitals. This by the way is the most expensive way to obtain treatment”… “Many uninsured have primary care doctors which they see for non-emergency care. Just because someone is not insured does not mean they cannot afford doctor’s fees for basic care. Some who are insured also use the ER as their primary physician, seeking treatment for stomach aches, and low fevers, etc., thus increasing all our premiums. After some patient evaluation, ERs should be able to turn away non-emergency patients, if there is a local 24-hour clinic available.
“and also indicates that these individual’s medical condition is advanced”… Pure speculation; as I said above, some insureds go to the ER for treatment of stomach aches, and low fevers, etc.
“Remember our taxes already pay for 65>”… true, but not necessarily Constitutional.
“and Federal employees”… Also true, but they are employees; our taxes also pay their salaries. Would you prefer they work for free?
“The uninsured also create an unsafe enviroment (sic) in relation to contagious diseases which again effect all of our healyh(sic)”… Uninsured does not equate to walking around with communicable disease, anymore than insured equates to completely disease free.
The key issue with the healthcare bills is one of Constitutionality, and States’ Rights. Just because prior, unconstitutional programs have been created in the past, does not justify creating more. You know, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.”
Additionally, there is no Constitutional authority for the Federal government to regulate, legislate or mandate health insurance for individuals. The General Welfare clause states “The Congress shall have Power To… provide for the common Defence (sic) and general Welfare of the United States”. Notice it reads “of the United States”, not of the citizens.
Now, since there is no Constitutional authority for the Federal government to regulate health insurance, and taking into consideration the Tenth Amendment, Which states “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”, it is my humble opinion that the Federal government is usurping Constitutionally protected State powers, and should therefore immediately cease and desist this action.
I watch and listen to them as well. Probably more than the rest of the channels. And I never heard of that. And why are they advocating it now or even before Sunday’s vote? One thing that the conservative base knows how to do better than anyone else is organize and yell loud.
Maybe they drummed it up and then let it go like a lot of their made up “stories” for ratings.
Facts please, Whats your financial plan to get our country financialy solvent again?
NO EMOTIONAL OUTBURST OF FACTLESS STATEMENTS BASED ON FEELINGS. ADULTS UNDERSTAND THAT THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM DOES NOT HAVE FEELING, BUT IS A SYSTEM BASED ON MONETARY POLICY.
“Of all our social programs in place now – police, fire, public schools, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, what freedoms have we EVER lost?”
police, fire, public schools…
State and Local programs, paid for by taxes authorized by Constitutions of the individual States. Federal involvement is unconstitutional, although that’s never stopped the Federal government from spending your tax money for other states’ poor education systems.
Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security…
Here’s where you have lost rights. Take a look at your paystub at the amount the Federal government takes from you for OASDI (Social Security) and MED (Medicare/Medicaid). You have lost the right to spend that money as you see fit. You can not tell the Federal government that you have a better plan for your retirement and would rather invest that on your own, because they’re spending your money on current retirees, people drawing disability, and those who cannot afford to pay for medical care. It’s not sitting in an investment account, waiting on you to retire so you can come claim your money when your 65. Keep in mind that your employer matches those funds, which reduces their ability to reinvest in their business and possibly hire additional workers.
If you could have that money to spend as you see fit; for insurance, retirement, etc., AND if market based health insurance reforms and reasonable regulations were in place (with NO coverage mandates), you could purchase a health insurance policy as an young individual, hopefully right before your coverage on your parents’ policy expired, and maintain it for life. Your premiums would be reasonable, your employer could (but would not have to) pay a portion of your premiums, you would not lose your policy if you changed jobs, and you would not have pre-existing conditions because you’ve maintained health insurance coverage.
Mark H certainly has it right. What have we lost? How about the people who have been paying into Medicare for all these years and now the pols are gutting it to the tune of 500+ Billion dollars? These older citizens have paid for years but now will get nothing. Bernie Madoff would be proud.
Bernie would also like Social Security, but he liked it so much that he mad up his own program that was patterned after it. Too bad they don’t put these guys that are taking the 500+ Billion out of it. Bernie got a tiny amount in comparison, but he is in jail.
Bernie would just love this health care scam, too, but he is in the slammer. Does anyone want to guess why the meetings were held at night behind closed doors? Maybe Bernie was in on the deal after all?
It seems that you pay for years and years and then they change the rules when it is too late. If it is a private company you can sue them, but good luck trying to get your money back from the government.
Apparently you are free to pay and pay and pay. That counts as three freedoms that we still have, and soon will be the only ones left.
What was widely reported, and what I heard on all the radio and TV conservative talk shows, was that if you change your coverage, you would be automatically dumped into the government program. If you left your employer to start your own business, you would not be able to purchase your own insurance, but would have to go into the government program. If your employer was no longer able to afford to offer insurance, or made changes to the insurance they offer, you would not be able to buy your own insurance – you would be dumped into the government program. “Investor’s Business Daily” reported this as well, and you can find it if you Google it.
“that if you change your coverage, you would be automatically dumped into the government program”
Not true – never was.
“If you left your employer to start your own business, you would not be able to purchase your own insurance, but would have to go into the government program”
Not true. You would have a choice between a private carrier or opting into the Public Option and pay a surcharge. See, it’s optional hence where it got it’s name.
“If your employer was no longer able to afford to offer insurance, or made changes to the insurance they offer, you would not be able to buy your own insurance – you would be dumped into the government program.”
Almost true. The employer would have to pay an 8% of payroll tax to have their employees enrolled in the government run program.
Hey Billo – I agreed with your health care ideas. I guess that makes you and idiot as well?
The thing with ultra right wing conservatives is that they think with there pocket books and not about what’s rational or what is the right thing to do, they don’t listen and believe only what they want to believe. No matter what the facts are.
You are completely wrong about right wing conservatives… we think with our brains, and believe in the United States Constitution. The Constitution is the guiding document of this great nation, and was developed on conservative, free market principals.
Ehhh….wrong again Marko. Its’ one thing to be conservative and it’s another to be super, ultra right wing crazy conservative. The same goes with being liberal and far left.
I see myself is middle of the road and rational. I have conservative principals and liberal principals. It all depends on the topic. For health care, I believe that no one should get denied for pre-existing conditions, have the insurance companies practice policy rescinding once coverage is purchased for ticky tack things in the past or jacked up rates. I also believe EVERYONE should pay there fair share for the services.
I also believe in God, the right to bear arms and in the constitution.
That’s exactly right! Obama is not King of the World, and this is one of those things he doesn’t understand…….doctors and medical providers are in charge!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can try controlling them via insurers, but it ain’t gonna work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reminds me of when he tried to “talk some sense into North Korea”. Oh wait, that didn’t work.
Alan, Conservatives do think about financial matters with our pocketbooks. Doesnt that make since.
Conservatives use logic and reason and come to a decission on financial matters. Liberals talk about the poor and why cant we just print the money to pay for them. Their answer for every concern, is spend more money. Has anyone on the left ever figured out that you can not just print money to solve your problems.
Here are some statistics on Democrats vs Republican Mayors in our habitual cities that top the poverty level.
What do top ten cities with the highest poverty rate all have in common?
Detroit, MI (1st on the poverty rate list) hasn’t elected a Republican mayor since 1961;
Buffalo, NY (2nd) hasn’t elected one since 1954;
Cincinnati, OH (3rd)…since 1984;
Cleveland, OH (4th)…since 1989;
Miami, FL (5th) has never had a Republican mayor;
St. Louis, MO (6th)….since 1949;
El Paso, TX (7th) has never had a Republican mayor;
Milwaukee, WI (8th)…since 1908;
Philadelphia, PA (9th)…since 1952;
Newark, NJ (10th)…since 1907.
Einstein once said, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.”
It is the so-called disadvantaged who habitually elect liberal Democrats, yet they are still “disadvantaged.”
Mark again, you shouldnt argue with anyone who would continue to do this over and over and over and not learn anything from it and who also support unions, Accorn and the likes and not know they are communist or socialist at best.
Allan is a doofus. Has anyone ever met a DemonRat, communist, socialist, or other lefty, such as a union official, who’s in power and is poor or even middle class? Of course not.
Matt,
You’re really Alan Grayson. With the comment Republicans will kill more than Al-Queda. Unfortunately, the dems suppressed any measures the GOP may have wanted to put forth and not allowed in teh Obama backroom debates (great transparency wasn’t it). This is a Sheik Obama, Pelosi and Reid bill. If you weren’t Steny Hoyer or Baucus you had no say what went into the bill. If you were labeled a fence sitter you were rewarded handsomely with taxpayer funds diverted to your district or state by Reid, hop off that fence and sign onto the bill. Much like Jack Abramhoff paid off congressmen/women, except Jacks in Jail!
So don’t going spewing the liberal jargon especially the venom spewed from our insane congressman the illustrious nut Alan Grayson.
YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS BEING A POWER GRAB FOR OBAMA…CAPITALISM WILL GO AWAY IF WE DO NOT GET RID OF THE DEMOS WHO VOTED FOR THIS HEALTH BILL. ER, FREE HEALTH CAR FOR EVERYONE BUT THE WORKING PEOPLE!!!!!!!
LET’S START NOW GIVING $$ TO REPUBLICIANS AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT CAPTIALISM.
I THINK THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD WASTE OUR TAXPAYERS DOLLARS ON “TERRORISM” AND CATCHING BOMBERS ON PLANES AND OSAMA, NOT DICTATE SOCIALISM AND IDIOT GOVERMENT-RUN HEALTH PROGRAMS TO US.
The other argument (which you will probably try to refute) is that pretty soon the public “option” will be the only “option” left as insurance companies will be unable to compete with the federal government and everyone will eventually HAVE to go into the so-called “optional” public “option.” In that case, it wouldn’t be an option, now would it? (Think hard now.)
If we become more like the french will we have to stop useing deodorant and teach our army to surrender? I think the federal government should be completely out of the health care business. Let the states do whatever they want to, as per the 10th amendement. “That government governs best that governs least”. Our Federal Government spending is totally out of control.
Oh come on…For one thing, I may lose my job someday, but it won’t be because I did something wrong. And I’ll admit that if the benifit is there, I’ll probably use it if I must. However, I don’t want it available, even if one day I “might” benefit from it. If I lose my job tomorrow, you can bet your butt that I’ll be out there pounding the pavement for what ever period of time it might take to get a new job. I’ve been there before. Most of us have been. And if there is an emergency and I or someone in my family needs healthcare, I’ll show up at the hospital emergency room and be treated, just like anyone in this country can right now. The system isn’t broke. Could it be improved? Probably, but there is no reason to rush this bad bill into law. Figure out a way to make healthcare more affordable for everyone, without getting the government involved.
The problem is the government is already too involved, that is what is distorting the system. In a true free market system the prices will fall as companies compete. In non government areas of healthcare, like corrective eye surgery and plastic surgery, prices have fallen. If we let this federal government continue with it’s welfare/warfare spending they will be successful at only thing. That is the destruction of the dollar by hyper inflation.
Sarah, good point, and i agree. However I have not seen spending go down or government reduced during any of the last Republican administrations. Seems no matter which party gets in, spending increases. We can’t even starve the monster, it just prints its own currency. I think Grover Norquist had right idea.
Allan, I have a question for you. You make the statement that you don’t think anyone should be turned down for preexisting conditions. Why? I know it is probably because your a nice guy and think that it just isn’t right for someone to be turned down for insurance and die because of the pre existing condition. I feel the same way. I feel sorry for the person, and hope it doesn’t happen to me, but it might. What your looking for is a guarantee that everyone is going to be nice and treat everyone else nice. And your wanting to make sure that everyone is going to be nice to you by trying to force everyone to pay excessive taxes to insure that you never get turned away. Sometimes things just aren’t fair in this world. Our constitution doesn’t guarantee that everyone is going to be treated fairly. It guarantees freedom. Someday, when you die and get to heaven, I assume that is where you are going, I’m pretty sure at that time you’ll get “fairness”… and it won’t cost you anything. Until then, you need to settle for freedom.
MY DOCTOR-WHO IS A GREAT ONE- HAS A P.A. WITH 9 OTHER DOCTORS AND HE SAYS THAT IF THE HOUSE AND SENATE PASS THIS BILL, HE AND THE OTHER 9 DOCTORS WILL JUST RETIRE. SO, WHO’S GOING TO TREAT ALL OF US???? THE GOVERNMENT????? BEND OVER AND KISS THE “FREE MARKET SYSTEM” GOOD-BYE!
You hit the nail on the head. Incrementally put together a worthless plan. When it’s clear it doesn’t work, continue to demonize insurance companies so the only option left is for the federal government to step in a be the saviour. First 30 million Americans are afforded coverage, which approximately 25% never did want. Then you look to incorporate another 17 to 20 million (remember the number was 41, then 47, then 51 million uninsured – now the number is 30 million??) into the system. When the delivery fails and insurance companies (private insurers) start losing money, there’s nowhere else to go except taxpayer funded federal government.
Sarah, The only thing I have seen happen during republican administrations is spending increases, the department of homeland horse manure (creeated by bush) is one of the biggest fiascos around.
Please show me where this so-called “smaller government” is under the republicans, I sure haven’t seen it. for other examples, “bridge to nowhere” ring a bell?
I think we can also do without spending money fighting wars against a country that never attacked us. (but hey, I’m sure those non-existant WMDs are in iraq somewhere, yea right)
Bobbie, from your posts it is quite obvious that you are against the war we waged in Iraq and probably against war in general. You have a right to your opinion, no matter how misguided it may be. I do agree with you that the Republicans have been just as spendy and in many cases more spendy than liberals. Unfortunately the republicans have lost their way and are trying to outspend the liberals in order to garner political favor among the voters that are easily bought by pork projects. I’m a conservative, not necessarily a Republican anymore. Unless the Republicans return to their conservative base, I’ll be voting for the constitution party candidates in the future.
Bobbie,
Here is your WMD that was discovered but not reported by the elite media. You would have found small paragraph about it on page A30 of your local newspaper. This was the yellowcake uranium Sadam had purchased from Africa, You know the same stuff that the outed Valerie Plames democratic operative husband said didnt exist.
From Brianna Keilar and Larry Shaughnessy
CNN
WASHINGTON (CNN) — The United States secretly shipped out of Iraq more than 500 tons of low-grade uranium dating back to the Saddam Hussein era, the Pentagon said Monday.
In this 2003 photo, UN inspectors work at the nuclear facility in Iraq.
The U.S. military spent $70 million ensuring the safe transportation of 550 metric tons of the uranium from Iraq to Canada, said Pentagon spokesman Brian Whitman.
The shipment, which until recently was kept secret, involved a U.S. truck convoy, 37 cargo flights out of Baghdad to a transitional location, and then a transoceanic voyage on board a U.S.-government-owned ship designed to carry troops to a war zone, he said.
YOU OWE BUSH AN APOLOGY!
By the way the Homeland security department is saving your life every day. Proof is the attempted plot of terrorism on the flight to Detroit. But because it didnt blow up by the grace of God, you will not think it was a terrorist action.
Facts please, Whats your FINANCIAL PLAN to get our country financialy solvent again?
I know as our idiot VP Biden stated. “We have to spend money to create a recovery” Try that with your credit card and see where it gets you!
NO EMOTIONAL OUTBURST OF FACTLESS STATEMENTS BASED ON FEELINGS. ADULTS UNDERSTAND THAT THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM DOES NOT HAVE FEELING, BUT IS A SYSTEM BASED ON MONETARY POLICY.
It is not the role of government to require its citizens to purchase anything.
Other than it’s broke and you want to increase those costs? Don’t give me that about decreasing costs. Governments never reduce costs. Doesn’t happen. Never. Why take the entire health system down for the benefit of a small percentage of the population? Provide coverage for them without trying to shut down the health insurance industry in favor of government. Government more efficient and cost effective? Are you serious, when? The money tree is bare. We are no longer competitive in the world. We can’t just keep borrowing and killing the future of this country. Liberals and unfortunately many Republicans refuse to understand that this spending is killing us.
You don’t get to pay $17.50 for a $20 ticket to the zoo and say “I don’t like giraffes.”
I sure don’t want my tax dollars going to pay for two stupid wars against peasants in the desert across the world. I’d sure rather pay for healthcare than pay to blow up natives with “beast of Kandahar” classified unmanned drones.
Matt:
Those “peasants” flew 2 planes into WTC.
Nowhere is the US Constitution does the governemet have the authority to force the people to buy anything. Just another step towards Obama stupidity known as their version of Utopia.
Actually, none of the hijackers were from Iraq or Afghanistan. In fact most of them were from countries we are allied with and who supply much of our oil. Easy mix-up, though, not your fault, you’ve only had 8 years to learn the facts.
Right, yeah I forgot about how Saudi Arabian hijackers took down the towers on 9/11 so we declared war against Iraq and Afghanistan (but somehow we didn’t stop the military aid to Saudi Arabia).
And the clauses in the Constitution are the Interstate Commerce Clause and the General Welfare clause.
The definition of welfare is “Exemption from misfortune, sickness, calamity or evil; the enjoyment of health and the common blessings of life; prosperity; happiness; applied to persons.”
A recent Harvard study notes 45,000 Americans a year, every year, needlessly die due to lack of health insurance.
Comparing American deaths from lack of health insurance to American civilian deaths from terrorism, I figure I am 99% more likely to be killed by the Republicans than by Al Qaeda.
I love how they always spout that. Question, how many of those uninsured people are here legally? How many just don’t WANT to buy the insurance? How many just waited too long to get the insurance and now can’t because of the pre-exisiting condition? If you have to go to the ER, they can not turn you away if it is a life threating illness. Everyone is bashing insurance companies for excluding coverage for pre-ex conditions, but my question to those people is “Why didn’t you have insurance BEFORE you got sick?” Adverse selection at its finest. If pre-ex was not excluded, no one would buy insurance until they had some expensive bills coming up.
I know the cost is an important issue and it will add huge defecits. I get it.
What I’m talking about is what the seniors receive as care from Medicare.
Is there a politcal issue with seniors recieving care from Medicare?
Matt:
Sorry, the interstate commerce clause does grant Congress authority to regulate private industry. It pertains to cross state line sales of goods and services without prejudice created by the individual states, not companies.
The General Welfare clause is part of the Taxing and Spending clause within the constitution for the payment of National Debts to benefir the Union as a whole not indvidually.
Best check the actual wording before you broad brush the intent.
Matt, why blame the lack of health insurance for the so called “45,000” deaths. Why not blame the doctors and hospitals for not doing the work pro bono?
Hey Youngin, WTF does the country of origin have to do with anything? – Dumb ***. Please tell me. I am curious to see if you have a clue.
Statistics are great. Between 35,000 and 40,000 people die each year while driving vehicles. Perhaps we should all stop driving. You are throwing statistics that were developed in a partisan political process onto this forum. Please explain how the 45,000 die from lack of health care. Hospitals and clinics in my area treat those without coverage. Stastically, how do you show that not having healthcare was the cause? Perhaps you can tell us how many people die every year that have healthcare?
A: The bill would significantly change the 2.5 trillion U.S. healthcare system that almost everyone agrees costs too much and leaves too many people without medical coverage. For the first time in U.S. history, citizens and legal residents will be required to purchase a health insurance policy.
“Federal subsidies will be available to help them afford coverage. The subsidies will be available for people with incomes up to 400 percent of the poverty level, about $88,200 for a family of four. The poverty levels for 2009 is $22,050 a year for a family of four and $10,830 for an individual.
GIVE ME A BREAK! WHAT IT MEANS IS YOU AND I WILL GO BROKE PAYING FOR YOUR NEIGHBORS HEALTH INSURANCE AND YOU AND I WILL PAY TWICE AS MUCH FOR HEALTH INSURANCE IF WE HAVE ANY MONEY LEFT OVER AFTER PAYING FOR THESE IDIOTS SPENDING BINGE.
Read the constitution. “Promote the general welfare”. You will notice our founding fathers did not use the word “provide” If they wanted us to pay for your health insurance they would have said PROVIDE for the general welfare. Liberal always try to twist the constitution to fit their agenda which at its essence is against everything our founding fathers wanted when they drew up our constitution and our bill of rights.
Matt go to France!
Quote: “Comparing American deaths from lack of health insurance to American civilian deaths from terrorism, I figure I am 99% more likely to be killed by the Republicans than by Al Qaeda.”
Many people use statistics pulled from a dark damp place. However, if you stipulate that the “Allahu Akbar” yell is indicative of Al Qaeda which is given equivalency to the Muslim Murderer yell, then you are much more likely to be killed by Al Qaeda. Just ask the Fort Hood guys who were killed in their “gun free zone”.
On the subject of being killed by a person of any given political persuasion, I postulate that you are much more likely to be killed by a Democrat than a Republican, since the Democrats seem to have this moral equivalency thing going on and are more likely to be interested in illegal drugs (note who wants to legalize them).
Since a Democrat is therefore 92% more likely to be on drugs, there is a greater possibility that you will be killed by a Democrat than Al Qaeda. Your statement as quoted at the beginning includes an error because of the party that you selected to compare, but otherwise (as ammended to read “Democrat”), you could be correct.
As other readers have noted, US hospitals treat anyone who walks in, including illegals. We have universal health care in the US now, and it is better than the socialized healthcare in many foreign countries. Note the survival rate statistics for the top 20 countries. I leave as an exercise for the intelligent reader to find authoritative data sources.
When you go to the UK, they stamp your passport with a warning that you have no access to government healthcare. That should answer many questions and clear up many misconceptions about the superiority of government healthcare. After a few years on the inevitable socialized medicine that we will get, there will be many more deaths. Start taking notes.
Hey TX Agent… so for the 8 states that consider being beaten by your spouse a pre-exisitng condition, you agree with this? And for the rest, saying our government shouldn’t require us to buy anything is ridiculous, so basically we shouldn’t be required to pay taxes, or required to license drivers, or require us to register our cars.. and yes the list goes on. So if they require us to pay taxes to better the country, yes they should require us to take care of ourselves as well… which in turn will better our country… Yes your correct in that we should promote and not provide, but you can’t pick and choose where you do this, either promote taxes and health care… or provide it… If you don’t like paying for the country you live in and to better the american population which will in turn save you money, then why don’t YOU go to the countries that offer this… I for one am fine paying for what our country offers… I am not a liberal dumb@ss, a conservative dumb@ss or have any affiliation to any such erroneous partyline… I am an American. d!psh!ts
The 45000 Americans didn’t die because of lack of health care, 45,000 Working Insured Americans died providing health care to uninsured, welfare recipients and illegal immigrants-because we could not afford to feed ourselves after we pay for everyone else.
Me, lets look closer at what you are saying and whether requiring to purchase a private product is constitutional.
Car insurance, you dont have to own a car.
Drivers license – again you are not required to own a car or get a license. It is not a right it is a priveledge.
Pay taxes, you are only required to pay taxes if you make “enough” money. actually almost 35% of the population pays NO federal income tax after their return is filed and the top 10% of earners pay 78% of all taxes collected. NO it is not my words in the US Constitution it is our founding fathers who used the words PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE OF THE CITIZENS” They did not use the work PROVIDE!.
“If you don’t like paying for the country you live in and to better the american population which will in turn save you money, then why don’t YOU go to the countries that offer this… I for one am fine paying for what our country offers… I am not a liberal dumb@ss”
I am sorry but this statement above makes you very well sound like a liberal dumb@ss. Res ipsa loquitur!
This is not healthcare, its liberal takeover by the far left political class. None of us are exempt or will improve from including those that can’t afford health care. For those that follow like puppies and audacious enough to support it (online), it’ll be a sad day when you are told I told you so!
Some quick facts from our left leaning Congressional efforts.
Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for elective funds transfer.
Page 203 Line 14-15 HC: “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.”
Page 341 Lines 3-9: The Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc.
Page 425 Lines22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: The Govt provides an “approved” list of end-of-life resources;
Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to individuals’ finances & a ‘National ID Health card’ will be issued!
Health insurance is the beginning. Once the left has us, companies will fail, the dollar will fail and this country will fail.
Journal your daily activities so your kids and grandkids will have a concept of what a GREAT COUNTRY this used to be…
So it’s my privledge to own a car, yet I am required to register it you say… Therefore the logic is sound when I say, it is your priviledge to have a child in america, yet you are require to insure it… I’m not saying these things are cut and dry, all I’m saying is that there is alot of work to do in every sector and if nothing gets done because there are “sides” that are mongering over how much money “they” personally will lose then we all lose. If we don’t require everyone to get insurance to save countless lives, please let us know how to save these lives and run for a seat and I will vote for you.
I JUST LOVE IT WHEN YOU CHILDREN FIGHT!!!!
AS A SMALL BUSNESS OWNER-32 YEARS- AT TIMES I COULD NOT AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE FOR ALL MY EMPLOYEES. THEY DID NOT NOR DO THEY THINK IT IS THEIR “RIGHT” THAT I PROVIDE FOR THEM FOR HEALTH INSURANCE. I THINK THAT IF SMALL BUSINESSES MUST PROVIDE HEALTH INSURANCE FOR EMPLOYEES THEN HAVE THE EMPLOYEE PAY THE LARGEST AMOUNT OF SAY 80-90% OF THE PREMIUM AND LET’S SEE WHO TAKES THIS INSURANCE!!!!
I THINK ILLEGALS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED HEALTH INSURANCE UNLESS, IT IS LIFE THREATENING. OH, WAIT, ILLEGALS CAN GET FREE HEALTH COVERAGE NOW IN OUR STATE BY GOING TO THE ER. SILLY ME, I’M, BAD!!!
Ok Me. Let me try again to explain the problem there is with the mandated purchase of health insurance with the US Constitution!
You are not required to register your car, because the Government does not require you to purchase a car. (get it)
The Government does not require you to have a child. But if you do you must provide for it. (NOT ME)
Right now you have what you are after, universal health care. Get sick and go into a hospital and see if you get treated. No one is dieing because of lack of healthcare. That is just liberal propaganda. The liberals say that illegal alliens will not get the healthcare. But right now they are, So who is the heartless people. Conservatives who promote the current health care system with changes that save money or the Liberals who dont want to provide for illegal alliens but want you and I to pay for everyone else.
Hopefully you understand now why I say the US Constitution does not allow this plan to happen. It is unconstitutional, and the law should be overturned if passed the way it is.
Seriously, go to France if you want healthcare and welfare for everyone. The rest of us will stay in America and enjoy the benefits of our freedom along with all the risks (including paying for my health) that freedom brings as well.
I think it’s hilarious that quite a few people on here feel that they shouldn’t be paying for ‘someone else’s healthcare’, yet they already are. Anyone on here who thinks they don’t need any help with their medical coverage has their head up their @ss. They’ll be the FIRST one in line for this government healthcare when they are DROPPED from their current coverage as soon as they are diagnosed with a major medical condition. Then, we’ll see a lot of those same people packing their bags heading for Europe to get some much needed coverage they aren’t going to get over here.
Nugget,
You have used a word that many people have no love of or respect for…freedom.
Freedom. That quickly eroding circumstance that formerly set the United State of America apart from the rest of the world.
Freedom. That quality of life that tyrants hate.
It is sad. My grandson will not know the freedom to make his own choices, good or bad.
True compassion will cease to exist. Without freedom, that human condition will vanish. No longer will one do the right thing because you want to do it. Instead, you will be fined or taxed if you don’t do the “socially approved right thing.”
The US Constitution does say “promote” not “provide” the general welfare. But,how can we expect the meanings of the words to be understood when we have reduced education from learning to feeling?
At least we know the price for selling a Senator’s soul – $100 million for Nelson; $300 million for Landreau.
FYI my profession is an insurance agency owner for 25yrs. This is a obviously a very emotional subject. But I would like to post a few thoughts. First, all of who pay for insuance currently pay for the uninsured. The uninsured access health care now mainly through ER at hospitals. This by the way is the most expensive way to obtain treatment and also indicates that these individual’s medical condition is advanced. Preventative care is much cheaper.Remember our taxes already pay for 65> and Federal employees. The uninsured also create an unsafe enviroment in relation to contagious diseases which again effect all of our healyh and is very expensive to our economy in lost work time. There is much more negatives and cost that is not being discussed as result of not having access to healthcare causes.
So, I’ve come to the conclusion that our government is completely dumb and inept at getting anything right…….well, most things.
So other than a government run health plan option and higher taxes, what should be done about our current system? Right now our admin costs are hovering around 30% and GDP is aournd 16-17%. Other rich, industrialized, FREE countries are at 8% GDP and less while their admin costs are at 5% or less.
I understand that Tort reform and the ability to purchas across state lines is a start but, this alone will not stop the costs to increas over time.
What else can be done?
Please note that you do not get a lot of coverage over in Europe, nor is it “free”. No where is care as good as it is here. Ever ask yourself why Canadians and others come here for medical care? The US sucks according to many, but “they” never explain whey everyone wants to come here.
If people get cancelled it will be because of the taxes that they put on the insurance companies to pay for the free health care here.
Just wait and see what happens when the new law goes into effect. There will be lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth… but alas, too late. Until they see the gates of hell, very few believe.
OK, I understand the unconstitutional aspect of this.. and actually agree on that side of things.. problem I have is not necessarily the legalality, it’s that nothing in this country is getting done, people are choosing sides and are not looking at every angle, only the one that benefits them most.
illegal aliens, yes they should receive care, but they should also receive penalty by coming to america illegally after their care where we work a treaty out with the country to put them behind bars no less then 1 year in their home country all the while they are doing labor to pay their hospital fees. When they pay the bill and their transportation costs, they go free in their country.
healthcare should either be required for every parent to hold on their child until they have a plan of their own or at the age of 21 at the least or don’t have children, simple. pre-existing conditions should not be cause for no coverage.. if our courts can judge a person to be put to death allow them to judge on these as well before denial, additionally.. let’s really regulate the hospitals. Every part of the totem pole of our government is regulated by another… why should american’s health be any different. Our money is regulated but yet our health pretty much is not, makes no sense to me.
These are the types of things we should be working on
Rod, I could not agree more with you. Wasnt it funny how in the middle of the night it changed from “Healthcare reform” to “Health Insurance Reform”. We really need to focus on reducing cost, not creating a new government program destined to fail and drive us into the poor house. The current legislation being proposed does little if anything to reduce costs. How about tort reform, how about alowing us to get the drugs at the same cost as any other country can get it. How about a set fee schedule for services, how about providing a standardized policy that is required like we have in homeowners and auto insurance. Prexisting conditions should be covered but within a period of time to prevent someone from waiting until they get sick to purchase a policy. How about doing away with cobra and allow you to purchase the coverage for the same price you were paying with your employer before you got sick. There are numerous issues with the current system but it is still better than what they are proposing, a socialist government with a over bearing powerful central government dictating and taxing us into poverty. If we are not careful we will become a 3rd world country, a banana republic soon.
Here is a start and I am sure everyone else could come up with something else.
REAL Health Care Reform:
Insurance companies need standardized policies, coverage A B or C. like homeowners policies now are standardized in all states. They need an excess profit law which states they are entitiled to raise their rates only to the point of a 5% profit. Like Workers comp in many states.
Doctors need not make over a million dollars a year. They should be required to not own a physical therapy clinic or medical testing lab in conjunction with their medical practice. They should be required to accept a fee schedule by Health and Human Services average. If they chose to be exempt which they should be able to, they can not collect from an insurance company.
Drug makers, should be required to sell us their drugs for the same amount they sell in other countries. They should not be allowed to make billions on any one drug and not be allowed to contribute to the AMA or provide any incentive to a doctor for the prescriptions they write.
Reform yes! Government takeover No!
Way to strawman. I am of the belief that the Fed government should only be in charge of two things. National Defense and making currency. Let the states make the other rules. I mind paying my taxes, but I do not want the government to tax me to death. I don’t want the government to take my whole paycheck because “We will provide everything for you” No, I work hard, so I want my money so I can deside how I am going to live.
We may pay for the uninsured. We don’t pay for the 100’s of additional overpaid government employees required to manage socialized medicine. That will come at a much greater cost.
Once this is implemented, large businesses push the cost to the customer, small businesses try, but fewer are buying. Small businesses go bankrupt and more people are out of a job.
This creates less money in circulation, less taxes and less available money for states and federal government.
The govt steps in and pics up the pieces because capitalism does not work…. (by the leftist point of view)
Once that occurs, you are completely supported by the govt.
This is basic economics. You are adults and should know these things.
Remember this article in a few years so you can tell yourself, He was right – or better yet -The Right was Right!
Bottom line, this bill takes away more of our FREEDOM. Without FREEDOM who cares about health care? PLEASE REMEMBER THIS BILL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HEATHCARE. SO STOP DEBATING IT. IT HAS TO DO WITH TAKING OVER 1/6 OF OUR ECONOMY AND INSTALLING SOCIALISM. It does nothing to decrease the cost of healthcare (tort reform, etc.) which is the real problem.
This bill has nothing to do with healthcare. How can anyone say it is with a straight face? It’s about power and control. 45% of doctors will quit if this bill passes, and we already have a doctor shortage in many areas. We will pay more, yes, and not for better coverage, helping the poor, or even insuring the illegals… we will be paying more for red tape, hassels, and health panels that will decide if you should go to a specialist or stay home with antibiotics.
My son has downs syndrome… numerous items in this bill scares me, but no amount of money scares me as much as the health panel made up of bureaucrats (not doctors) who will be deciding if my son gets treatment. They don’t know him or watch him grow – how do they know what he needs? How will they know a sign something’s wrong? How do they put a value on his life?
This is a nightmare! I am neither rep or dem – I am a conservative constitutionalist. This bill is neither fair or just. I never thought I would see the day – every day I wake up and realize my beloved America decays a little every day.
Nice! Good to see someone coming up with ways or ideas other than just name calling or saying ring wing this or left wing that. (Even though I’m guilty of that on here). I think we need to move past that and identify what our current problems are in our health care/insurance system and find alternatives other than what has failed in the house and senate votes.
What do you think if we took what you said and also have a legislative body just step in as a negotiator between the health insurance companies and the medical service providers? There could only be one fixed price for all services and procedures and there couldn’t be large motivation for profit. The unemployed would be on a system something like Medicaid until they found employment and even that would run out in a year while someone unemployed is looking for a job.
Anyone would be able to pick and choose their doctors as they see fit through an exchange. No waiting for anything. Medical and insurance costs go down and then America’s cost to GDP is around 8% or better and admin costs are about 12% or so.
Only problem with this is whole thing is there would be to be some sort of mandate to purhase insurance to help pool the cost and make it AFFORDABLE FOR EVERYONE. Besides, everyone is either going to purchase health insurance through their employer or on their own at some point or another.
Would this work and does anyone think this is still too much government?
I have made this comment once before but I will say it again, the government does not do insurance well. Here are some examples:
West Virginia WC – Bagged it because they never charged adequate rates and almost went bankrupt.
TennPlan- Healthcare plan similar to the public option. Almost bankrupted the state and all its providers because everyone opted for the TennPlan which paid its providers below cost.
Mass health – initial budget 3 years ago, 100mm. Now – 700mm.
CA WC plan – ticking time bomb of underreserved liabilities and not enough surplus.
FL insurance Guarantee Assc.- Property Insurer of last resort – significantly low premiums that can not cover the cost of the next big cat loss. Enables people to build house where they don’t belong.
National Flood Insurance Plan – same as above. Rates too low and the next big cat will ruin it. Legislation is now up to have other state pay for Florida’s poor choice of building in bad places and not paying adequate rates.
Social Security – do I need to say anything?
So what makes people feel think government is the solution? they are consistently irresponsible when it comes to adequate rate making. The heart is in the right place (I hope) but we can’t insure all risk away. We should all no that better than any other reaadership.
They can help us find a solution but a major overhaul?
Also Demonizing, liberals, conservatives, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, medical device makers…… is not helpful. Although I am tempted at times, when I step back and think about it, it does not help anything but make for an interesting pi$$ contest.
AMEN, SUSAN!
I am afraid for people like you and your son. There is alot wrong with the status quo and alot we could be doing to get it right. The new law they are passing does nothing to reduce costs and everything to do with a take over of our freedoms. I am so very afraid of what our new president and congress is doing to our Country. I cannot wait until next November to get out and support any republican I can against my Democrat Senator here in Florida. I am going to give money and my time to anyone who runs against him! I am fed up!
Mandate to purchase health insurance is unconstitutional. The government is to “promote the general welfare” of the Citizens. not “Provide the general welfare”. Everything else is moving in the right direction which is cost reductions. That is what we need, reduce the cost and you reduce the premium. Just look at Florida’s WC system. in 2004 we inacted legislation reducing attorney involvement and our rates have been reduced 64% since 2004. Killing my pocket book but good for the citizens of Florida.
One important debate is over reimportation of drugs. Here is a novel idea that i can’t beleive our leaders have thought of. How about making it illegal for any pharmaceutical company to sell their medication less than the lowest price offered anywhere else in the world?
It seems to me Americans are paying for the rest of the world to get all the medicine we develop here. That should even the playing field.
You are correct and they trained in Afganistan and the US. Take the story the whole way next time.
GL Guru, Oh that would mean the cost of drugs to Africa would go up a little. Cant you see the liberals saying that we have to pay for the poor people of the worlds drugs that means (THE ENTIRE WORLDS MEDICIE WE ARE SUBSIDIZING). When are we going to understand we are supporting the whole world, last week we agreed to pay 100 billion a year for our green house gas emmissions. So lets get this right, where is that money going? huh. The UN or the World bank? My God, would someone please impeech our president and congress. This “change” is just way too much for a logical person to take.
As far as requiring individuals to purchase health insurance, absolutely we should require them to purchase it. We have had mandatory auto insurance for years because the risk to others of injury is likely when driving an automobile.
The risk is GIVEN, it’s just a matter of “when” you’ll need medical treatment….if you don’t require people to have it, and then the insurers can’t deny for preexisting conditions, everyone would just wait until they got sick to purchase coverage.
The need for medical care at some point in your life, for accident, injury or illness, is a given. Those that don’t purchase it, and then soak off the system, cost us insurance consumers money, when we have to pay for their uncompensated care.
Hooray,
One problem it is unconstitutional to require someone to purchase a product from a private company. Let me explain.
You do not have to own a car, not required so you dont have to buy and pay a registration tax. Owning a car is a priviledge not a right.
The risk is a given, but not to you if you purchase your own coverage. It is a free country still even with our new president, whether he wants it to be or not.
Our Constitution is the only thing standing in the way of Communism right now. The legislative branch and the Executive Branch of our government right now would vote to become socialist or communist today if they could. The Judicial Branch and our Constitution is the only thing standing in their way.
It’s obvious that Reverend Obama has found sufficient payoff/bribery for all of the Democrats vote. Democrats have been stealing candy from the candy store since January 20, and they just can’t control themselves.
I am rejoicing in the fact that they are signing the health legislation so quickly. It will give Americans 10 months between now and November to learn what the bill will really do, and by then Dems will have signed their own Death Certificate.
As to the Democrats who support Obama, and who actually have employer provided healthcare (and a job)who support this legislation, I say “give it time”…..when you have to open your wallet to pay for this, you’ll wonder why you voted for this Community Organizer, who knows nothing but how to avail himself of government benefits.
Women who are 9 months pregnant standing outside in the winter for a swine flu shot? Billions of dollars thrown at Big Pharma to produce a vaccine that they so far have failed miserably at providing. Already recalled by one manufacturer for the mercury free version given to kids: they said “don’t worry, it wasn’t as effective as we thought” but it turns out “we didn’t need it to be that effective?”….another manufacturer has recalled in Canada after an alarming number of anaphalactic allergic reactions in one batch….
We don’t need Pap smears or mammograms anymore either, remember? Think it’s a coincidence? I think not. That’s the government deciding what is best for you.
Bill, I agree that the Constitution is but a nuisance to the current president and congress, and I agree that they are moving away from personal freedoms and desiring greater reliance upon the government. But fortunately, these personality types will be but a distance memory soon, due to their extreme views.
I can see that if you choose to own a vehicle, you are agreeing to purchase everything that goes along with that….maintenance, taxes, insurance. But the origin of Motor Vehicle Financial Responsibility laws was to hold the negligent driver financially responsible for property damage and bodily injury.
Every citizen and non citizen alike bears the risk of medical expenses. The logical result, based on physician’s Hippocratic Oath, is that the non purchasers of insurance shove their lack of responsibility off onto the responsible citizen, AND NOW THE TAXPAYER, as they go about seeking the freebies that they didn’t want to pay for.
Uninsured citizens and non citizens are now subjecting the taxpayer to increased taxes, and that’s where I draw the line. Where’s the protection for the tax payer? Why are you sticking up for the irresponsible here???
If you don’t want to require the purchase of insurance, call it an Uninsurance Surtax, and require them to pay more in Federal Tax, as a downpayment on their future needs.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/RaiseKids/1-in-4-must-fight-for-jobless-checks.aspx
Everyone complaining about
excessive government intervention: how fast will you run to your state rep. to complain and ask for help when you or a family member is officially laid off and the boss tells unemployment you were fired for wrongful misconduct. You will have no money coming in until your case can be heard in front of a mediator. Then you could lose if the mediator believes the boss and not you! As an added bonus,you do not qualify for COBRA if the boss says you were fired for misconduct. Try paying $500 – $1000 a month for health insurance on your own, on top of all your usual bills, with not one red cent coming in.
The ends don’t justify the means. We could move forward with tort reform,sales of insurance across state lines and actually improve insurance while lowering costs. The current bills in the House and Senate do exactly the opposite. They increase costs over and reduce coverage to the individual.
This is not health care reform. It is a political power grab.
Bill – I agree that mandating someone to purchase coverage is not constitutional but, some of what you proposed like “Doctors need not make over a million dollars a year. They should be required to not own a physical therapy clinic or medical testing lab in conjunction with their medical practice.”
To a point, this is unconstitutional as well. Or at the least, government involvement and thus lead many to believe it could be a government take over.
So, if a mandate were in place and it did drive down costs and keep costs in check, how is that a bad thing?
What do you think if we took what you said and also have a legislative body just step in as a negotiator between the health insurance companies and the medical service providers? There could only be one fixed price for all services and procedures and there couldn’t be large motivation for profit. The unemployed would be on a system something like Medicaid until they found employment and even that would run out in a year while someone unemployed is looking for a job.
Anyone would be able to pick and choose their doctors as they see fit through an exchange. No waiting for anything. Medical and insurance costs go down and then America’s cost to GDP is around 8% or better and admin costs are about 12% or so.
Only problem with this is whole thing is there would be to be some sort of mandate to purhase insurance to help pool the cost and make it AFFORDABLE FOR EVERYONE. Besides, everyone is either going to purchase health insurance through their employer or on their own at some point or another.
Would this work and does anyone think this is still too much government?
Allen,
Wake up. You are having a dream.
It’s not a dream. Taiwan, Germany and Japan already do this and it works.
What do you mean, ‘have to open your wallet and pay’?? Really? Since when do you think that this is something new? It has been going on for quite some time and I’m shocked that you haven’t noticed. There are so many things incorrect with the statements you’ve made. I feel for you and the sources you have.
Is there anyone here against Medicare? And I mean other than costs. I’m talking about the care that patients receive.
I agree whole heartedly except you stress the words United States and not the citizens, which I agree with you is problematic, I think the word “Promote” the general wellfare, used in the Preamble of the Constitution does not rise to the same level as “Provide” for the general wellfare which it states in Article 1, section 8. of the Constitution. I think this is certainly going and should go to our Supreme Court.
The preamble to the Constitution states:
“We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Article 1, Section 8 states:
“The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.”
Interpretation
The author of this article has split the “Taxing and Spending Clause” into two parts instead of treating it as one, as some people do, taking no issue per se with the power to spend. Separate treatment is being given in this series to the troubling items within the larger clause, spending for the “general welfare,” and “taxing.”
This article has a Libertarian take on the meaning of “general welfare.” Some grounds for this interpretation can be found in history, but the argument boils down to the danger to liberty in government actions intended to help people through redistribution and projects that the private sector could very well accomplish
Bill,
Thank you for your reply.
I stress the words “United States” as this is the clause often stated as giving the Congress authority to reform healthcare for the people (as well as the Commerce clause). The Preamble is just that, a preamble; stating the purpose for the Constitution.
My interpretation of “general welfare of the United States” is as a strict constructionist; for the good of the country as a whole, not specific individuals. By applying this clause to individuals, the Duties, Imposts and Excises would not be uniform throughout the United States, as each individual has unique circumstances and needs.
Mark, I agree that the United States is not the citizens but believe that the high court would rule more specifically that the premeble is extremely important and as you state define the purpose of the Constitution and actually trumps Section 8 article 1. in that the purpose is to promote the general welfare and not provide for it as Section 8 states.
Either way I think you will see this thing go to the high court within a year.
Mark, I would also note that the Louisiana purchase and the Nebraska, lets make a deal part of the legislation, is without a doubt flying in the face of Section 8 article one where it states that the taxes imposed for the general welfare are to be uniform in all areas of the United States. So how do claim medicaid is for the purpose of the General wellfare and give tax dollars to Louisiana and Nebraska but not to all states.
Is this really the change you veoted for??? I hope you are going to do something the Senators did not. READ THE BILL. I can guarantee you, it will scare you to death. The devil is always in the details and NO ONE has read the details. When do we all wake up and realize where we are headed?
Regarding opening your wallet and paying, I’m not aware of any time in the past in which my Federal Tax Dollars went to support my neighbors health insurance premiums and medical bills (with the exception of Medicare and Medicaid of course) If this has been going on, please fill me in.
Is everyone happy that we as a nation spend twice as much as other leading, rich, free, industrialized countries and get less? We’re a laughing stock right now and it’s because of all the fear mongering going on that your hear in the media from the right. They want to get paid. Don’t you see it?
You want to tell me that predjudice against pre-existing conditions, policy recisions and high costs are just fine for this country?
You want to tell me that when your insurance policy fails to cover an ailment for yourself or loved one it’s ok to get a divorce so your ex-spouse can go on Medicaid to recieve care? This is what makes our country great?
I’m sorry. But if your in favor of what we have now and do not like reform, you are just plain stupid.
Laughing stock???? NO!!! We are not a laughing stock exept for the idiot we voted into office! Most of our allies feel sorry for us – no one ever believed America would lose its freedoms! Many British have seen the road we are travelling because they already did!
Stupid to not give up freedom????? Have you even read the bill – or are you another politician????
As far as pre-existing conditions go, I see both sides. What else would motivate a healthy person to buy health insurance??
The high costs come from friends of the left – lawyers and unions (who by the way will be even richer after this deal). Obama wants to stop the bad insurance companies… guess their worse than the drug companies because he formed an alliance with them. This is a power grab!! You still believe it about healthcare and all the fake stories you’ve heard!!
We are a laughing stock because other FREE, RICH, IDUSTRIALIZED nations make their helth work and it costs half as much as ours. EVERYONE is covered even if you loose your job.
There is no both sides to pre-existing conditions. You can already have had insurance for years, loose your job and try to get a individual plan that is better than COBRA while your looking for a new job. Guess what? It’ll never happen.
Of all our social programs in place now – police, fire, public schools, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, what freedoms have we EVER lost?
Yes, I suppose they do spend half as much and cover everyone… just takes six months to see a doctor or a year for a MRI. America has the best healthcare in the world. There is no crisis.
And yes, there are two side to the pre-existing condition part (which I know all to well):
1 side is if they cover them, what motivates healthy people to buy insurance?
Other side is if they don’t, they are seen as heartless and cruel.
We are losing bits and pieces of our freedom every day. The assult on capitalism and the free market the last few years proves that more are yet to come. This healthcare grab is a way to get their foot in the door. One of the healthcare bills released when the public option was strong actually wanted to make it illegal to buy private health insurance after 2012. Wake up AMERICA – your freedoms are being taken little by little every day. All the things the government is getting its hand into (i.e. caps on bonuses, taking over car companies, requiring gun licensing, cap and tax, healthcare, etc. etc.) is just a way to get a foot in the door.
Everything you said is false. Where is it in the bill that it will be illegal to buy private health insurance after 2012? I’m curious to see where you heard this from.
If you do a bit of research you’ll find that in Taiwan, Germany, Switzerland and Japan who all have universal health care, there is no waiting for anything. The UK has gate keepers for specialist but the wait time now is the same as ours. It used to be worse but Parliment imposed measures and marketing techniques to improve it.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/
Now tell me again as I asked the first time where we’ve lost our freedoms? No one yet has told me. They just say we have.
The liberals think only the government can do this and all the other takeover items on the agenda right now. I see no evidence that the government in place now or for the past any number of years has this capability. Get real.
Ok, I’ll agree with you on that statement. Maybe it’s our government that is stupid and inept. I can see that.
But, all the fear mongering and government take over talk is B.S.
Since I don’t see anyone offering an alternative I’ll give you one.
What do you think we have a legislative body just step in as a negotiator between the health insurance companies and the medical service providers? There could only be one fixed price for all services and procedures and there couldn’t be large motivation for profit or any profit of all. The unemployed would be on a system something like Medicaid until they found employment and even that would run out in a year while someone unemployed is looking for a job.
Anyone would be able to pick and choose their doctors as they see fit through an exchange. No waiting for anything. Medical and insurance costs go down and then America’s cost to GDP is around 8% or better and admin costs are about 12% or so.
This is something similar to what other FREE, RICH, INDUSTRIALIZED nations do and it works for government spending and patients recieving the care.
Any objections?
Allan, have you been paying attention to all the left wing programs, taxes, fees and regulations being promulgated by Congress and the Administration. It’s not paranoia if they really are after you. We will end up with Great Britain tax burden levels if all of the or even part of them pass. It frightens me and I don’t scare that easily.
I don’t agree with taxing the richest 1% and tax on cadillac plans. I think they could have thought harder on how to do it. I don’t mind tax on plastic surgies that include boob jobs, botox, tanning or any of those. Who cares.
However, I do agree with going back to the tax schedule of what we were paying during the Clinton administration. It didn’t hurt that much.
So, again is there one person that can tell me what or where we have lost our freedom?
What about the right to prosper??? Between taxes and bonus/salary caps that right is being taken too. I have news for you. The doctors have a right to make profit. Why else would anyone go through at least 8yrs of extra schooling? The mean old insurance companies have the right to make money too. There are already laws in place about the profit ratio vs number of insureds. Some companies charge too much for the coverage and get fined. I believe those fines should be steeper to avoid gauging the consumers. Enforce the laws we already have.
The part about the private insurance being illegal after 2012 was something I read in the bill itself. It was one line in a 1000 pg+ monstrosity that probably went unnoticed. I’m sorry I do not remember if it was the house or senate version. It was the first one released. There have been so many closed door revisions, no one knows what’s in it anymore.
Anytime you start to get ahead, the government slaps another tax on you and thinks it’s time to redistribute the wealth. I just started my own business. I’ve struggled my entire life. I just start to make it and the government is going to tax me out of business. I gave you many instances of freedoms we’re slowly losing. You just want to spew the leftist talking points and call me a rightwinger!
So you want to have a middle man between the insurance company and the doctor??? For what purpose? Remember that even this legislation purports to control administrative functions and you’re wanting to add another layer of administrative function. What’s the benefit. The doctor’s and insurers now the reasonable cost of medical services and no government official is needed to intervene.
As to “one fixed price” for a medical service, a kidney transplant isn’t a kidney transplant. And an open reduction internal fixation isn’t always exactly the same. Which is why we don’t want to “flat rate” medical procedures…because if you need 8 screws in your ankle, and the government only pays for four, you’re going to get four.
As to turning the medical profession into a “low profit” or “non profit”, I’m wondering exactly who you think is going to be willing to pay big bucks to attend Harvard Medical School? Afterall, if there’s no profit in it, and you have to go several hundred thousands of dollars into debt for the degree, you’re probably going to choose another profession.
Which is the problem with this legislation……we will dumb down the medical profession, which is exactly what makes our country’s health system one of the best in the world.
Oh, so you just started your own business huh? How’s the pricing and exclusions on your health inurance plan?
The bonus and salary caps are regarding the health insurance companies. Not businesses like yourself.
The doctors, nurses, EMT’s and everyone else deserves to make and exceptional living and be able to afford a nice Benz. You can do all of that at the hospital level, make money, not suffer care and not make a huge amount of profit doing it. Other countries already do this. Except Germany. But their overhead costs are lower, malpractice insurance runs about $1,100 a year and they go to med school for free.
Not EVERYTHING has to make a profit ya know. What would you say if the Red Cross went public so they can profit off of their services? Something is wrong with that picture.
And the part about the private insurance being illegal after 2012 would have been picked up by Fox News, Ann Coulter, Rush, Mark Levine and everyone else on the right. Why wasn’t it? Maybe because you misinterpret it wrong or it never existed.
So, why are we ranked number 37 in the world? All other RICH, FREE, INDUSTRIALIZED nations are kicking our *** and cover everyone.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/
well, we can finally spend money on our sick and quit wasting money for wars against countries that never attacked us.
concerned about the costs?…okay, so, quit wasting money waging wars against countries that never attacked us.
neocons like to do that for some reason. neocons love throwing money away, especially if they get to kill people in the process.
I agree, time for another revolution in this country.
what can the idiots do if you don’t purchase health insurance? They can’t put everyone in jail.
Are the idiots going to kick out the millions of illegal aliens, or deny them health insurance?
Alan, I am sure you are decent fellow, I have read a few of your posts, I can tell you lean left with regards to healthcare and your political positions. I would love to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, but all of his actions tell a different story with regards to his motives on healthcare, his economic plan or lack thereof. He has proven through his appointments and political posturing that a bipartisan healthcare reform, the one in which you are calling for which I commend you on is never going to happen and never was the plan. What scares me is that we cannot afford to give someone democrat or republican the benefit of the doubt when it comes to what is constitutional or not. Every leader of our great nation must not be allowed to “change” the structure of our great nation. Every action by Obama and our current congress has shown me that they care nothing as to what is constitutional but quite the opposite. They want a very strong central Government that provides for all citizens and will provide “social economic justice”, their words not mine.
All I ask is you google Cloward-Piven. These were Harvard professors who Obama has studied in the past in college and who he has quoted many times in the past. I know you will as many liberals will discount this as conspiracy theory.
UNFORTUNATELY WE DONT HAVE THE LUXURY TO BE WRONG WITH PLACING OUR FAITH IN OBAMA NOT BEING A MOVEON.ORG COMMUNIST OR SOCIALIST. WE CANNOT RISK OUR NATION AND OUR CONSTITUTION TO SOMEONE WHO WILL NOT TELL US THEIR ULTIMATE PLAN FOR BANKRUPTING OUR COUNTRY AND CREATING A VISION OF SOMETHING WE DID NOT AS A COUNTRY SIGN ON FOR.
BE CAREFUL AS TO DISMISSING FACTS PRESENTED AS WE ALL KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT THIS COMMUNITY ORGANIZER WITH ONE TERM IN THE SENATE WITH VERY LITTLE HISTORY AND EXPERIENCE IN LEADERSHIP.
Hey, I thought I’d add this little tid bit about the AMA ENDORSING the Health Bill. It seems that Doctors are also fed up with the way the health care system is working… ahem, NOT!
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/12/ama_endorses_senate_health_bil.html
Why is not agreeing with someone conservative immediately referred too as left or liberal? Is there anything considered rational anymore?
I’ll check out your Cloward-Piven person as I have an open mind.
I don’t agree with everything that Obama or politicians in office have done or how they went about doing it or getting it done. I’ll even vote against Obama if there is someone better qualified.
In the world. Hello????
Please tell me you’re joking.
Ranked 37 IN THE WORLD, in what Allan????????????
Correction: Columbia University professors, not Harvard.
Obama has studied this strategy for years and was obsessed with it in college from what some have said. The strategy is to overwelm the country with wellfare and social programs to the point that it falls into a socialist system by a majority demand of the population. In order to do this you need the establishment of major social programs that overwelm the financial systems and our tax structure as well as subvert the US constitution which calls for a small central government and states rights. Google it to find out more.
Cloward and Piven Strategy – Obama studied and has called it a great example of how we can establish “social economic justice”.
In over all health care. And don’t say it’s flawed or out dated. Everyone looks to the W.H.O. for these stats.
There are so many things that we could do, but because of corrupt politics and special interest groups. Will never get done.
DOES THIS BILL REDUCE HEALTHCARE COSTS?
Then why are we doing it!
I could agree with that statement. After seeing how this whole bill went down I’m starting to think that our government is inepet and not very capable of doing just about anything anymore.
But we still have problems that need solving.
Allan:
Typical liberal “stat” w/ no merit.
Perhaps you shouldn’t quote stats that are nearly 10 years old and which were never entirely accurate to being with.
Taken DIRECTLY from WHO website:
“The World Health Organization’s ranking of the world’s health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task”
Any other worthless stats you’d like to grace us with?
We need to demand they start over and REDUCE OUR COSTS of healthcare. Congress is now out in the open, for sale, Nebraska and Louisiana we just purchased with our tax money.
Alan, your right Congress is enept and we are all going to suffer the consequences of this poorly constructed and not well thought out bill. Now it is just pass any bill no matter what.
This legislation represents 1/6 our total economy. I think we need to get it right for us, not big pharma, health Insurers, AARP or any other special interest group.
The only one who loses in the current legislation is all of us!
Ok Ron:
UK: Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 8.4
Japan: Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 7.9
Switzerland: Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 11.3
Germany: Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 10.4
Taiwan: Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 8
USA:Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 15.3
These are the top richest, FREE western democracies in the world. And almost everyone with the exception of Germany & Switerland beats us almost by half in cost to GDP on health care. They cover everyone regardless of what situation, pre-existing condition or whatever and you can’t loose your health care if you loose your job.
Want to dispute it? Try.
Bobbie–
is it a waste of money to keep our country safe? If someone is willing to strap a bomb to their child and send them into a crowd of innocent people, is it a waste of money to try to stop them? are people that will fly planes into buildings worth fighting? is removing a dictatorship built on terrorizing, raping, gasing, and executing its own citizens a waste of money? Is fighting an organization which bars women from attending schools and harbors known terrorists a waste of money?
Absolutely it is NOT a waste of money. Just next time have a plane when doing it. The plan W. had sucked @***.
During WWII the Allies I think spent around 2 years planning on what to do with Germany afterwards. W. spent what? 2 or 3 months planning what to do with Iraq. Then the people he sent in to clean up weren’t even qualified.
Mission Accomplished my @***.
IF the stats were correct on percent of gdp spent on healthcare, perhaps the reason why the US is higher, is because we have better healthcare?????? Perhaps spending the smallest amt on healthcare means it isn’t a very big priority to that country. After all, four screws in your ankle are cheaper than 8.
Do you still want to convert 1/6 of our economy into a non profit?????
The stats are correct and we get less outcome for what we spend.
Don’t get me wrong, our hospitals, doctors and nurses are top notch. Some of the best in the world.
Other countries have just as good hospitals, doctors and nurses and achieve better results. Mainly because there is no profit motivation.
Like I said before, what do think the outcome if the American Red Cross went public and became a for profit company? It doesn’t make sense.
You mean to tell me that you can post your sh*t talk and not even know if it is true or not?
Rod,
You make a lot of assumptions in your comments.
“all of who pay for insuance (sic) currently pay for the uninsured”… true enough, but it would be more correct to say all taxpayers currently pay for the uninsured.
“The uninsured access health care now mainly through ER at hospitals. This by the way is the most expensive way to obtain treatment”… “Many uninsured have primary care doctors which they see for non-emergency care. Just because someone is not insured does not mean they cannot afford doctor’s fees for basic care. Some who are insured also use the ER as their primary physician, seeking treatment for stomach aches, and low fevers, etc., thus increasing all our premiums. After some patient evaluation, ERs should be able to turn away non-emergency patients, if there is a local 24-hour clinic available.
“and also indicates that these individual’s medical condition is advanced”… Pure speculation; as I said above, some insureds go to the ER for treatment of stomach aches, and low fevers, etc.
“Remember our taxes already pay for 65>”… true, but not necessarily Constitutional.
“and Federal employees”… Also true, but they are employees; our taxes also pay their salaries. Would you prefer they work for free?
“The uninsured also create an unsafe enviroment (sic) in relation to contagious diseases which again effect all of our healyh(sic)”… Uninsured does not equate to walking around with communicable disease, anymore than insured equates to completely disease free.
The key issue with the healthcare bills is one of Constitutionality, and States’ Rights. Just because prior, unconstitutional programs have been created in the past, does not justify creating more. You know, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.”
Additionally, there is no Constitutional authority for the Federal government to regulate, legislate or mandate health insurance for individuals. The General Welfare clause states “The Congress shall have Power To… provide for the common Defence (sic) and general Welfare of the United States”. Notice it reads “of the United States”, not of the citizens.
Now, since there is no Constitutional authority for the Federal government to regulate health insurance, and taking into consideration the Tenth Amendment, which states “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”, it is my humble opinion that the Federal government is usurping Constitutionally protected State powers, and should therefore immediately cease and desist this action.
“And the part about the private insurance being illegal after 2012 would have been picked up by Fox News, Ann Coulter, Rush, Mark Levine and everyone else on the right. Why wasn’t it? Maybe because you misinterpret it wrong or it never existed.”
No, it definitely did exist, and all of them, including Rush, Hannity, Levine, ALL of them, were livid and ranting about it on a daily basis. I know because I listen to them all every day, and I was livid about it too. So yes, it did exist, in one of the early incarnations of this monstrosity of a bill.
Rod,
You make a lot of assumptions in your comments.
“all of who pay for insuance (sic) currently pay for the uninsured”… true enough, but it would be more correct to say all taxpayers currently pay for the uninsured.
“The uninsured access health care now mainly through ER at hospitals. This by the way is the most expensive way to obtain treatment”… “Many uninsured have primary care doctors which they see for non-emergency care. Just because someone is not insured does not mean they cannot afford doctor’s fees for basic care. Some who are insured also use the ER as their primary physician, seeking treatment for stomach aches, and low fevers, etc., thus increasing all our premiums. After some patient evaluation, ERs should be able to turn away non-emergency patients, if there is a local 24-hour clinic available.
“and also indicates that these individual’s medical condition is advanced”… Pure speculation; as I said above, some insureds go to the ER for treatment of stomach aches, and low fevers, etc.
“Remember our taxes already pay for 65>”… true, but not necessarily Constitutional.
“and Federal employees”… Also true, but they are employees; our taxes also pay their salaries. Would you prefer they work for free?
“The uninsured also create an unsafe enviroment (sic) in relation to contagious diseases which again effect all of our healyh(sic)”… Uninsured does not equate to walking around with communicable disease, anymore than insured equates to completely disease free.
The key issue with the healthcare bills is one of Constitutionality, and States’ Rights. Just because prior, unconstitutional programs have been created in the past, does not justify creating more. You know, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.”
Additionally, there is no Constitutional authority for the Federal government to regulate, legislate or mandate health insurance for individuals. The General Welfare clause states “The Congress shall have Power To… provide for the common Defence (sic) and general Welfare of the United States”. Notice it reads “of the United States”, not of the citizens.
Now, since there is no Constitutional authority for the Federal government to regulate health insurance, and taking into consideration the Tenth Amendment, Which states “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”, it is my humble opinion that the Federal government is usurping Constitutionally protected State powers, and should therefore immediately cease and desist this action.
I watch and listen to them as well. Probably more than the rest of the channels. And I never heard of that. And why are they advocating it now or even before Sunday’s vote? One thing that the conservative base knows how to do better than anyone else is organize and yell loud.
Maybe they drummed it up and then let it go like a lot of their made up “stories” for ratings.
I messed up. I meant to type: And why aren’t they advocating it now?
This question is to those who support Obamacare and his economic policies.
There is a day of reconning coming for our Country!
There is most definately a day when Social Security goes bankrupt!
There is most definately a day when Medicare goes completely broke!
There is a day when we will not be able to pay back China or they stop loaning us money!
WHAT DO YOU PROPPOSE THEN?
PLEASE ANSWER WITHOUT AN EMOTIONAL OUTBURST OF RIDICULE OR FACTLESS STATEMENTS OF FEELINGS. FACTS PLEASE!
I hear crickets….churp churp….
Nothing from the left?
Facts please, Whats your financial plan to get our country financialy solvent again?
NO EMOTIONAL OUTBURST OF FACTLESS STATEMENTS BASED ON FEELINGS. ADULTS UNDERSTAND THAT THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM DOES NOT HAVE FEELING, BUT IS A SYSTEM BASED ON MONETARY POLICY.
Liberals can only argue with a an emotional outburst of factless ridicule based solely on feeling and illogical opinion.
Mark you are way too smart to be discussing logic and reason with the likes of Allan. Ignorance is terminal.
“Of all our social programs in place now – police, fire, public schools, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, what freedoms have we EVER lost?”
police, fire, public schools…
State and Local programs, paid for by taxes authorized by Constitutions of the individual States. Federal involvement is unconstitutional, although that’s never stopped the Federal government from spending your tax money for other states’ poor education systems.
Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security…
Here’s where you have lost rights. Take a look at your paystub at the amount the Federal government takes from you for OASDI (Social Security) and MED (Medicare/Medicaid). You have lost the right to spend that money as you see fit. You can not tell the Federal government that you have a better plan for your retirement and would rather invest that on your own, because they’re spending your money on current retirees, people drawing disability, and those who cannot afford to pay for medical care. It’s not sitting in an investment account, waiting on you to retire so you can come claim your money when your 65. Keep in mind that your employer matches those funds, which reduces their ability to reinvest in their business and possibly hire additional workers.
If you could have that money to spend as you see fit; for insurance, retirement, etc., AND if market based health insurance reforms and reasonable regulations were in place (with NO coverage mandates), you could purchase a health insurance policy as an young individual, hopefully right before your coverage on your parents’ policy expired, and maintain it for life. Your premiums would be reasonable, your employer could (but would not have to) pay a portion of your premiums, you would not lose your policy if you changed jobs, and you would not have pre-existing conditions because you’ve maintained health insurance coverage.
Is that all you have?
Idiot…
Mark H certainly has it right. What have we lost? How about the people who have been paying into Medicare for all these years and now the pols are gutting it to the tune of 500+ Billion dollars? These older citizens have paid for years but now will get nothing. Bernie Madoff would be proud.
Bernie would also like Social Security, but he liked it so much that he mad up his own program that was patterned after it. Too bad they don’t put these guys that are taking the 500+ Billion out of it. Bernie got a tiny amount in comparison, but he is in jail.
Bernie would just love this health care scam, too, but he is in the slammer. Does anyone want to guess why the meetings were held at night behind closed doors? Maybe Bernie was in on the deal after all?
It seems that you pay for years and years and then they change the rules when it is too late. If it is a private company you can sue them, but good luck trying to get your money back from the government.
Apparently you are free to pay and pay and pay. That counts as three freedoms that we still have, and soon will be the only ones left.
We could be #1, if only we had price controls like those “free” countries.
Allan, you are a closet socialist…
What was widely reported, and what I heard on all the radio and TV conservative talk shows, was that if you change your coverage, you would be automatically dumped into the government program. If you left your employer to start your own business, you would not be able to purchase your own insurance, but would have to go into the government program. If your employer was no longer able to afford to offer insurance, or made changes to the insurance they offer, you would not be able to buy your own insurance – you would be dumped into the government program. “Investor’s Business Daily” reported this as well, and you can find it if you Google it.
Ok, good point on social security. That could make some sense.
That’s one.
Anything else D-bag?
“that if you change your coverage, you would be automatically dumped into the government program”
Not true – never was.
“If you left your employer to start your own business, you would not be able to purchase your own insurance, but would have to go into the government program”
Not true. You would have a choice between a private carrier or opting into the Public Option and pay a surcharge. See, it’s optional hence where it got it’s name.
“If your employer was no longer able to afford to offer insurance, or made changes to the insurance they offer, you would not be able to buy your own insurance – you would be dumped into the government program.”
Almost true. The employer would have to pay an 8% of payroll tax to have their employees enrolled in the government run program.
Googled it – never found what you were told.
Hey Billo – I agreed with your health care ideas. I guess that makes you and idiot as well?
The thing with ultra right wing conservatives is that they think with there pocket books and not about what’s rational or what is the right thing to do, they don’t listen and believe only what they want to believe. No matter what the facts are.
Allan,
You are completely wrong about right wing conservatives… we think with our brains, and believe in the United States Constitution. The Constitution is the guiding document of this great nation, and was developed on conservative, free market principals.
Arguing with idiots is fun!
Merry Christmas!
Ehhh….wrong again Marko. Its’ one thing to be conservative and it’s another to be super, ultra right wing crazy conservative. The same goes with being liberal and far left.
I see myself is middle of the road and rational. I have conservative principals and liberal principals. It all depends on the topic. For health care, I believe that no one should get denied for pre-existing conditions, have the insurance companies practice policy rescinding once coverage is purchased for ticky tack things in the past or jacked up rates. I also believe EVERYONE should pay there fair share for the services.
I also believe in God, the right to bear arms and in the constitution.
Merry Christmas to you as well and God Bless.
That’s exactly right! Obama is not King of the World, and this is one of those things he doesn’t understand…….doctors and medical providers are in charge!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can try controlling them via insurers, but it ain’t gonna work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reminds me of when he tried to “talk some sense into North Korea”. Oh wait, that didn’t work.
Alan, Conservatives do think about financial matters with our pocketbooks. Doesnt that make since.
Conservatives use logic and reason and come to a decission on financial matters. Liberals talk about the poor and why cant we just print the money to pay for them. Their answer for every concern, is spend more money. Has anyone on the left ever figured out that you can not just print money to solve your problems.
Here are some statistics on Democrats vs Republican Mayors in our habitual cities that top the poverty level.
What do top ten cities with the highest poverty rate all have in common?
Detroit, MI (1st on the poverty rate list) hasn’t elected a Republican mayor since 1961;
Buffalo, NY (2nd) hasn’t elected one since 1954;
Cincinnati, OH (3rd)…since 1984;
Cleveland, OH (4th)…since 1989;
Miami, FL (5th) has never had a Republican mayor;
St. Louis, MO (6th)….since 1949;
El Paso, TX (7th) has never had a Republican mayor;
Milwaukee, WI (8th)…since 1908;
Philadelphia, PA (9th)…since 1952;
Newark, NJ (10th)…since 1907.
Einstein once said, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.”
It is the so-called disadvantaged who habitually elect liberal Democrats, yet they are still “disadvantaged.”
Mark again, you shouldnt argue with anyone who would continue to do this over and over and over and not learn anything from it and who also support unions, Accorn and the likes and not know they are communist or socialist at best.
Bill,
Allan is a doofus. Has anyone ever met a DemonRat, communist, socialist, or other lefty, such as a union official, who’s in power and is poor or even middle class? Of course not.
Matt,
You’re really Alan Grayson. With the comment Republicans will kill more than Al-Queda. Unfortunately, the dems suppressed any measures the GOP may have wanted to put forth and not allowed in teh Obama backroom debates (great transparency wasn’t it). This is a Sheik Obama, Pelosi and Reid bill. If you weren’t Steny Hoyer or Baucus you had no say what went into the bill. If you were labeled a fence sitter you were rewarded handsomely with taxpayer funds diverted to your district or state by Reid, hop off that fence and sign onto the bill. Much like Jack Abramhoff paid off congressmen/women, except Jacks in Jail!
So don’t going spewing the liberal jargon especially the venom spewed from our insane congressman the illustrious nut Alan Grayson.
YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS BEING A POWER GRAB FOR OBAMA…CAPITALISM WILL GO AWAY IF WE DO NOT GET RID OF THE DEMOS WHO VOTED FOR THIS HEALTH BILL. ER, FREE HEALTH CAR FOR EVERYONE BUT THE WORKING PEOPLE!!!!!!!
LET’S START NOW GIVING $$ TO REPUBLICIANS AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT CAPTIALISM.
I THINK THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD WASTE OUR TAXPAYERS DOLLARS ON “TERRORISM” AND CATCHING BOMBERS ON PLANES AND OSAMA, NOT DICTATE SOCIALISM AND IDIOT GOVERMENT-RUN HEALTH PROGRAMS TO US.
The other argument (which you will probably try to refute) is that pretty soon the public “option” will be the only “option” left as insurance companies will be unable to compete with the federal government and everyone will eventually HAVE to go into the so-called “optional” public “option.” In that case, it wouldn’t be an option, now would it? (Think hard now.)
Here’s your link (I feel like saying “Here’s your sign”): http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=482329
If we become more like the french will we have to stop useing deodorant and teach our army to surrender? I think the federal government should be completely out of the health care business. Let the states do whatever they want to, as per the 10th amendement. “That government governs best that governs least”. Our Federal Government spending is totally out of control.
Oh come on…For one thing, I may lose my job someday, but it won’t be because I did something wrong. And I’ll admit that if the benifit is there, I’ll probably use it if I must. However, I don’t want it available, even if one day I “might” benefit from it. If I lose my job tomorrow, you can bet your butt that I’ll be out there pounding the pavement for what ever period of time it might take to get a new job. I’ve been there before. Most of us have been. And if there is an emergency and I or someone in my family needs healthcare, I’ll show up at the hospital emergency room and be treated, just like anyone in this country can right now. The system isn’t broke. Could it be improved? Probably, but there is no reason to rush this bad bill into law. Figure out a way to make healthcare more affordable for everyone, without getting the government involved.
The problem is the government is already too involved, that is what is distorting the system. In a true free market system the prices will fall as companies compete. In non government areas of healthcare, like corrective eye surgery and plastic surgery, prices have fallen. If we let this federal government continue with it’s welfare/warfare spending they will be successful at only thing. That is the destruction of the dollar by hyper inflation.
Sarah, good point, and i agree. However I have not seen spending go down or government reduced during any of the last Republican administrations. Seems no matter which party gets in, spending increases. We can’t even starve the monster, it just prints its own currency. I think Grover Norquist had right idea.
Allan, I have a question for you. You make the statement that you don’t think anyone should be turned down for preexisting conditions. Why? I know it is probably because your a nice guy and think that it just isn’t right for someone to be turned down for insurance and die because of the pre existing condition. I feel the same way. I feel sorry for the person, and hope it doesn’t happen to me, but it might. What your looking for is a guarantee that everyone is going to be nice and treat everyone else nice. And your wanting to make sure that everyone is going to be nice to you by trying to force everyone to pay excessive taxes to insure that you never get turned away. Sometimes things just aren’t fair in this world. Our constitution doesn’t guarantee that everyone is going to be treated fairly. It guarantees freedom. Someday, when you die and get to heaven, I assume that is where you are going, I’m pretty sure at that time you’ll get “fairness”… and it won’t cost you anything. Until then, you need to settle for freedom.
MY DOCTOR-WHO IS A GREAT ONE- HAS A P.A. WITH 9 OTHER DOCTORS AND HE SAYS THAT IF THE HOUSE AND SENATE PASS THIS BILL, HE AND THE OTHER 9 DOCTORS WILL JUST RETIRE. SO, WHO’S GOING TO TREAT ALL OF US???? THE GOVERNMENT????? BEND OVER AND KISS THE “FREE MARKET SYSTEM” GOOD-BYE!
You hit the nail on the head. Incrementally put together a worthless plan. When it’s clear it doesn’t work, continue to demonize insurance companies so the only option left is for the federal government to step in a be the saviour. First 30 million Americans are afforded coverage, which approximately 25% never did want. Then you look to incorporate another 17 to 20 million (remember the number was 41, then 47, then 51 million uninsured – now the number is 30 million??) into the system. When the delivery fails and insurance companies (private insurers) start losing money, there’s nowhere else to go except taxpayer funded federal government.
Sarah, The only thing I have seen happen during republican administrations is spending increases, the department of homeland horse manure (creeated by bush) is one of the biggest fiascos around.
Please show me where this so-called “smaller government” is under the republicans, I sure haven’t seen it. for other examples, “bridge to nowhere” ring a bell?
I think we can also do without spending money fighting wars against a country that never attacked us. (but hey, I’m sure those non-existant WMDs are in iraq somewhere, yea right)
Bobbie, from your posts it is quite obvious that you are against the war we waged in Iraq and probably against war in general. You have a right to your opinion, no matter how misguided it may be. I do agree with you that the Republicans have been just as spendy and in many cases more spendy than liberals. Unfortunately the republicans have lost their way and are trying to outspend the liberals in order to garner political favor among the voters that are easily bought by pork projects. I’m a conservative, not necessarily a Republican anymore. Unless the Republicans return to their conservative base, I’ll be voting for the constitution party candidates in the future.
Bobbie,
Here is your WMD that was discovered but not reported by the elite media. You would have found small paragraph about it on page A30 of your local newspaper. This was the yellowcake uranium Sadam had purchased from Africa, You know the same stuff that the outed Valerie Plames democratic operative husband said didnt exist.
From Brianna Keilar and Larry Shaughnessy
CNN
WASHINGTON (CNN) — The United States secretly shipped out of Iraq more than 500 tons of low-grade uranium dating back to the Saddam Hussein era, the Pentagon said Monday.
In this 2003 photo, UN inspectors work at the nuclear facility in Iraq.
The U.S. military spent $70 million ensuring the safe transportation of 550 metric tons of the uranium from Iraq to Canada, said Pentagon spokesman Brian Whitman.
The shipment, which until recently was kept secret, involved a U.S. truck convoy, 37 cargo flights out of Baghdad to a transitional location, and then a transoceanic voyage on board a U.S.-government-owned ship designed to carry troops to a war zone, he said.
YOU OWE BUSH AN APOLOGY!
By the way the Homeland security department is saving your life every day. Proof is the attempted plot of terrorism on the flight to Detroit. But because it didnt blow up by the grace of God, you will not think it was a terrorist action.
YOU LIBERALS ARE JUST OUT OF TOUCH!
I still hear crickets….churp churp….
Nothing from the left?
Facts please, Whats your FINANCIAL PLAN to get our country financialy solvent again?
I know as our idiot VP Biden stated. “We have to spend money to create a recovery” Try that with your credit card and see where it gets you!
NO EMOTIONAL OUTBURST OF FACTLESS STATEMENTS BASED ON FEELINGS. ADULTS UNDERSTAND THAT THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM DOES NOT HAVE FEELING, BUT IS A SYSTEM BASED ON MONETARY POLICY.