LIU is as sensitive as a kick in the balls. They should just show their clients why it pays to keep their business there. I am sure Aspen is going Non-Admitted on this product thus adding additional taxes and fees to the insured’s premiums. Why doesn’t LIU dig their heels in and have an old fashioned insurance battle? Have they heard of AIG vs Ironshore, Torus, CV Starr, etc? Happens all the time. AIG isn’t suing anyone, well not anymore…
LIU is full of underwriters and claims people who have ripped off their previous employers,lie cheat and sue their agents. They all deserve each other.
Yep, and if the allegations are true, you are crooks, too. Wait until you find out must how much your attorney fees will be in defending your stupid actions. Deceitful actions like this should not be tolerated, and theft (that’s what this is!) should be prosecuted, every time!
Wow… a group of Managers leaving in mass for a better deal across the street…I have only ever heard of this…..about 15 times. Crazy thing is the individuals get a good deal and neither company writes any more business. Unethical…maybe. Good long term move for any of the individuals..doubtful.
Teams move. Business moves. Free trade. No company “owns” a client’s business. If the clients didn’t want to move, they wouldn’t. If Liberty had provided a good enough employment package for these individuals, they wouldn’t have left. I have no respect for Liberty.
This is so incredible, as I always remember Bruce being such a friendly, sociable person, who never had a chip on his shoulder or considered himself better than every single one of the other underwriters at LIU. Maybe Gary’s wholesale promotion of lots of folks to SVP didn’t quite have the effect he intended.
There have been laws against this type of activity forever. At both companies and brokers. When will people realize that you cannot take a salary obtain training and confidential information from a company, then stab them in the back and get away with it. It is illegal and those that facilitate this activity are breaking the law as well.
Dean, are you really that ignorant? Do you not know about laws governing intellectual property and privledged information and the ownership of such information? Give us a break. Where are your morals? Your values? Or do you think you are above the law, too?
I can understand why Liberty has there panties crawling…. however I also get a little tickle because this is the way that have done business for years. Karma
Millions will be spent by all parties and if the allegations are true Liberty should be compensated mightily. but ALL of the lawyers will make boat loads of dough. Bad people making bad decisions to steal from one employer to move to another, would do the same thing to the new employer. Aspen will get what is due in the end. You can not defend stupid
Dean should one of us point out that no laws need be broken to bring a civil suit?
While headhunting does not seem like grounds for a suit, if trade secrets were taken that would be.
I think the question is what is being alleged here? Did they take in-force lists with them? Or is the mantle of “intellectual property” being used as a punitive cudgel to retaliate against a successful recruitment of key personnel?
It makes no difference what one may think of either company. The elephant in the room is betrayal of trust. Betrayal of trust is the lowest, most comtemptible and inexcusable action a person can take. I hope those employees involved ponder this for the rest of their lives. A man not true to his word is useless to himself and others.
The article says the lawsuit says that “When he resigned from Liberty on Jan. 14, Eisler “said he was taking at least five other employees with him” and turned in resignation letters for Cunningham, Camara, Goodman, Herlands and Sifert, according to the complaint.”
Now, it may be common industry practice to go elsewhere for greener pastures. It may be common to “work” your old contact at the new company. It may be common to take a few people here, and there, and there, and here, after a time. To do so, um, valiantly.
But c’mon. This way? This just shoves it in the face, in my opinion. I wonder why it was done like this, if the allegations are true. I’ll wait to see more as the suit progresses.It’s a shame about some of the folks involved, though. Some.
Like many of you, I’m been a proud member of this industry. I’ve worked both the company side and agency side for over 40 years. When I first became involved, I was impressed with the concept of “utmost fidelity” and the integrity of the members of our business. It’s sad to see that some believe integrity is not important. I believe integrity is THE most important character trait we must possess, and without it we should look for other types of employment more to our personal natures. Too bad the few can make it so difficult for the rest.
I am truly disappointed in my fellow brothers in insurance. To have something in common with people of such amoral ethics and values sickens me to the point of nausea. Those that left, taking with them that which benefits the new employer at the expense of the old employer should be drummed out of the industry, tarred and feathered, shamed to work in the tanning and hide business for all eternity. I’m disappointed in you all. Where is your honor? Oh yes, you’re sitting on it. Were I your client I would never take your call. Future employers once they exercise due diligence in your background checks will never hire you. Neighbors will never invite you to eat with them. No one will ever trust you as you are without honor, unworthy of trust. You people disgust me with your greed and avarice.
When some of the larger companies treat employees as disposable, replaceable parts I think it destroys the value of loyalty.
How loyal is it when a company out of the blue announces a buyout/merger then lays off half the staff (usually the older, tenured, higher paid staff most of us would call “loyal”)?
At my previous employer they fired half of the staff, then when they found out they couldn’t do all that work with half capacity they offered re-hires.
At that same employer they brought on trainees (apparently during a time when due diligence was likely occurring behind the scenes) and then laid them off once the sale was announced.
Or what about the company that has given a successful employee nothing but inflationay raises for ten years, while at the same time continuing to recruit and hire ship-jumpers at much higher salaries. How fair is it that loyalty is, from a compensation standpoint, used to punish workers? Or the company that knows they can get away with not giving John Doe a raise because he’s 50 and has nowhere else to go, even though he’s been a valued team member for 15 years?
Loyalty is indeed a valuable trait but it must be reciprocated.
Matt: That’s why I left the company side many, many years ago. But, loyalty is different than ethics. This specific situation is not about loyalty, but about ethics and the employees taking something that does not belong to them, namely: private, confidential, proprietary, intellectual information. This is an illegal act and an immoral act and just should not be condoned in any industry, much less ours.
Matt, it’s all well and good to talk about a lack of loyalty on the company part, but show me where LIU has not been loyal on any kind of significant basis?
After a good year, it appears Aspen has taken a very aggressive approach in the marketplace, under-cutting even AIG and NYMarine in many cases. Should be interesting to see what happens to Aspen in another 5 years after the claims hit.
LIU is as sensitive as a kick in the balls. They should just show their clients why it pays to keep their business there. I am sure Aspen is going Non-Admitted on this product thus adding additional taxes and fees to the insured’s premiums. Why doesn’t LIU dig their heels in and have an old fashioned insurance battle? Have they heard of AIG vs Ironshore, Torus, CV Starr, etc? Happens all the time. AIG isn’t suing anyone, well not anymore…
LIU is full of underwriters and claims people who have ripped off their previous employers,lie cheat and sue their agents. They all deserve each other.
….ha ha crud!
-nelson
What about all the AIG guys that the Liberty units hired???
Just coincidence that they targeted ex AIg accounts after they arrived there.
LOSERS!!!
Yep, and if the allegations are true, you are crooks, too. Wait until you find out must how much your attorney fees will be in defending your stupid actions. Deceitful actions like this should not be tolerated, and theft (that’s what this is!) should be prosecuted, every time!
Wow… a group of Managers leaving in mass for a better deal across the street…I have only ever heard of this…..about 15 times. Crazy thing is the individuals get a good deal and neither company writes any more business. Unethical…maybe. Good long term move for any of the individuals..doubtful.
I hope Liberty breaks their backs financially, and these 9 individuals are barred from the insurance/financial business for life.
Teams move. Business moves. Free trade. No company “owns” a client’s business. If the clients didn’t want to move, they wouldn’t. If Liberty had provided a good enough employment package for these individuals, they wouldn’t have left. I have no respect for Liberty.
This is so incredible, as I always remember Bruce being such a friendly, sociable person, who never had a chip on his shoulder or considered himself better than every single one of the other underwriters at LIU. Maybe Gary’s wholesale promotion of lots of folks to SVP didn’t quite have the effect he intended.
after the Valiant defections.
There have been laws against this type of activity forever. At both companies and brokers. When will people realize that you cannot take a salary obtain training and confidential information from a company, then stab them in the back and get away with it. It is illegal and those that facilitate this activity are breaking the law as well.
What laws have been broken? Have criminal charges been filed?
Dean, are you really that ignorant? Do you not know about laws governing intellectual property and privledged information and the ownership of such information? Give us a break. Where are your morals? Your values? Or do you think you are above the law, too?
I was hoping for intelligent and thoughtful dialogue on this matter but with folks like “old pro” around, that’s not possible.
I can understand why Liberty has there panties crawling…. however I also get a little tickle because this is the way that have done business for years. Karma
Millions will be spent by all parties and if the allegations are true Liberty should be compensated mightily. but ALL of the lawyers will make boat loads of dough. Bad people making bad decisions to steal from one employer to move to another, would do the same thing to the new employer. Aspen will get what is due in the end. You can not defend stupid
I think these are the same guys who did the same thing to that little Arrowhead MGA in California. At that time, Liberty benefited.
I guess it might be interesting to see if Arrowhead reacts if Liberty wins.
I believe in justice so let them fight. Interest to know the reaction from the clients. Would they move?
Dean should one of us point out that no laws need be broken to bring a civil suit?
While headhunting does not seem like grounds for a suit, if trade secrets were taken that would be.
I think the question is what is being alleged here? Did they take in-force lists with them? Or is the mantle of “intellectual property” being used as a punitive cudgel to retaliate against a successful recruitment of key personnel?
It makes no difference what one may think of either company. The elephant in the room is betrayal of trust. Betrayal of trust is the lowest, most comtemptible and inexcusable action a person can take. I hope those employees involved ponder this for the rest of their lives. A man not true to his word is useless to himself and others.
The article says the lawsuit says that “When he resigned from Liberty on Jan. 14, Eisler “said he was taking at least five other employees with him” and turned in resignation letters for Cunningham, Camara, Goodman, Herlands and Sifert, according to the complaint.”
Now, it may be common industry practice to go elsewhere for greener pastures. It may be common to “work” your old contact at the new company. It may be common to take a few people here, and there, and there, and here, after a time. To do so, um, valiantly.
But c’mon. This way? This just shoves it in the face, in my opinion. I wonder why it was done like this, if the allegations are true. I’ll wait to see more as the suit progresses.It’s a shame about some of the folks involved, though. Some.
AMEN! GK.
By the way. Yes, laws are broken when this is done.
Like many of you, I’m been a proud member of this industry. I’ve worked both the company side and agency side for over 40 years. When I first became involved, I was impressed with the concept of “utmost fidelity” and the integrity of the members of our business. It’s sad to see that some believe integrity is not important. I believe integrity is THE most important character trait we must possess, and without it we should look for other types of employment more to our personal natures. Too bad the few can make it so difficult for the rest.
I am truly disappointed in my fellow brothers in insurance. To have something in common with people of such amoral ethics and values sickens me to the point of nausea. Those that left, taking with them that which benefits the new employer at the expense of the old employer should be drummed out of the industry, tarred and feathered, shamed to work in the tanning and hide business for all eternity. I’m disappointed in you all. Where is your honor? Oh yes, you’re sitting on it. Were I your client I would never take your call. Future employers once they exercise due diligence in your background checks will never hire you. Neighbors will never invite you to eat with them. No one will ever trust you as you are without honor, unworthy of trust. You people disgust me with your greed and avarice.
When some of the larger companies treat employees as disposable, replaceable parts I think it destroys the value of loyalty.
How loyal is it when a company out of the blue announces a buyout/merger then lays off half the staff (usually the older, tenured, higher paid staff most of us would call “loyal”)?
At my previous employer they fired half of the staff, then when they found out they couldn’t do all that work with half capacity they offered re-hires.
At that same employer they brought on trainees (apparently during a time when due diligence was likely occurring behind the scenes) and then laid them off once the sale was announced.
Or what about the company that has given a successful employee nothing but inflationay raises for ten years, while at the same time continuing to recruit and hire ship-jumpers at much higher salaries. How fair is it that loyalty is, from a compensation standpoint, used to punish workers? Or the company that knows they can get away with not giving John Doe a raise because he’s 50 and has nowhere else to go, even though he’s been a valued team member for 15 years?
Loyalty is indeed a valuable trait but it must be reciprocated.
Matt: That’s why I left the company side many, many years ago. But, loyalty is different than ethics. This specific situation is not about loyalty, but about ethics and the employees taking something that does not belong to them, namely: private, confidential, proprietary, intellectual information. This is an illegal act and an immoral act and just should not be condoned in any industry, much less ours.
Matt, it’s all well and good to talk about a lack of loyalty on the company part, but show me where LIU has not been loyal on any kind of significant basis?
Come on Dan, “show me where LIU has not been loyal on any kind of significant basis” is the same as saying we are disloyal but just not all the time.
After a good year, it appears Aspen has taken a very aggressive approach in the marketplace, under-cutting even AIG and NYMarine in many cases. Should be interesting to see what happens to Aspen in another 5 years after the claims hit.