I can’t speak for FFA, Libby, but I still feel the same way about Obamacare. They are all a bunch of lying, cheating, under-handed thieves. How’s that for how I feel about it? Can you honestly defend this administration?? Take Obamacare out of the mix for a minute. How do you really feel about this POTUS and his crooked band of thieves?
I am disappointed by many of Obama’s decisions and his inability to unite Congress and the country. But that doesn’t mean I would have liked the alternative any better. Mitt Romney is as two-faced as they come. Says and does one thing in Massachusetts and a totally different thing when running for President. He was pandering to the right and it made him untrustworthy in my eyes.
As for Obama being a crook, I do not recall any convictions for that to date – only hopeful republicans slinging around accusations with little to no proof. Again, not the American way. Innocent until proven guilty, even if you are from Chicago.
As for Obama being a crook, I do not recall any convictions for that to date – only hopeful republicans slinging around accusations with little to no proof. Again, not the American way. Innocent until proven guilty, even if you are from Chicago.
Are your ears and eyes closed Libby? Do you not listen to the news? It is not the hopeful republicans slinging around accusations, it is the truth! Benghazi, the IRS, the AP. With all that you still deny he is a liar? Oh that’s right, he didn’t know about any of it till he saw it on the news which is even worse.
May 30, 2013 at 1:53 pm
Celtica says:
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from draetish: It is not the hopeful republicans slinging around accusations, it is the truth! Benghazi, the IRS, the AP. With all that you still deny he is a liar? Oh that’s right, he didn’t know about any of it till he saw it on the news which is even worse.
Tish — Benghazi will never go away because you feel that it is to your political advantage to keep it in the news because of the threat of Hillary running in 2016. Did you not learn anything from Hannity’s “Stop Hillary Express.” You fought so hard to keep Hillary out of the White House in 2008 that Obama had a cakewalk into it. Twice Get a clue.
Give credit to the majority of the American people for seeing Benghazi for what it is — a political ploy and nothing more. Why do you cry for those 4 people when Bush sent US soldiers home in body bags by the thousands?
The AP story does not have legs, even by the AP.
The IRS will be kept alive by the tea party. No one likes the IRS and no one likes the tea party. No sympathy for either party there.
May 30, 2013 at 2:28 pm
Libby says:
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draetish – how come the media is on your side and the defender of truth as long as it is spouting negative publicity about Obama, but as soon as it’s the other way around you discount it as liberal propogada? I repeat, Obama has not been formally accused, charged, or convicted of any crime. THAT is the truth. You wishing it were not so does not make it so. Grow up.
May 28, 2013 at 12:25 pm
bob says:
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FFA:
Pay attention to the fine details here. Whoever wrote this article did a bang up job:
“The exchange will also offer what it calls platinum plans, in which co-payments are very low or non-existent. These plans would cost $500 for those who do not qualify for subsidies, but as little as $300 per month for low-wage earners.”
$300 a month with someone who has subsidies $500 for someone who does not.
This is not more affordable without the subsidy than the current average. The current average in 2012 was $5,615. $6,000 is in fact an increase of almost 6%. From 2010 to 2012 (2 years) the increase was 4%. The increase in premiums has gone at a more rapid rate, not lesser. While one can argue this changes year to year, which it does, we can definitely state that this is not on the downward trend. Further to the point: These rates have not been approved yet.
Let’s try to see what happens when it happens.
If it were going down to $300 without subsidy, it would be quite a feat.
Has anyone seen your head since it floated into the clouds?
You are the most anti-realist person I’ve ever seen.
God forbid you would ever do any research. That settles it, obama care is great!
What did you say from day one? Obama care is GREAT!
You never questioned it, you never researched it in terms of costs and premiums. Clearly, as you followed this article as methodlogy to show it is more affordable, while it is in fact, not.
Do your research and get off your frat boyism attitude. Ooo rah go cougs!!
Dear Bob, I never said Obamacare was great. I just didn’t see the sky falling when it passed.
You seem to be predisposed ti intensely dislike any that is driven by Democrats — even if Obamacare followed the Republican healthcare blueprint.
It addressed a huge need in this country – especially for those schlumps like us who depend on healthcare from our employers .
“Dear Bob, I never said Obamacare was great. I just didn’t see the sky falling when it passed.”
The bill is passing in parts. That was intentional. The effect of the plan has yet to come. More to the point: It’s a bad and invasive plan, provable to anyone who looks at CBO numbers, deficit numbers, and what the plan aims to due. It addresses insurance. If forces people to buy insurance. The parts of the bill that were republican tend to be talking points for democrats (exchanges, pre existing conditions covered). This does not healthcare. If all Obama could think of was to force the insurance to be bought, limit investments on insurance companies (which builds capital to pay for claims, this was just a talking point, nothing more) and a subsidy, then even you have to admit his plan to change “health care” was a failure. There were no modifications to healthcare. “It addressed a huge need in this country – especially for those schlumps like us who depend on healthcare from our employers”
Wrong. Raising the costs of premiums for everyone, while forcing people who don’t have insurance to buy insurance at a higher cost is not helping anyone. List to me one benefit. If you say more people are covered that is not a benefit. Before they received treatment and the hospital absorbed the cost. Even with the hospital absorbing the cost the cost of insurance for people clearly was not at risk, as now that they are all buying insurance, the cost of insurance is not going down. Forcing someone to buy insurance is not a benefit. The pre existing conditions was also covered in the GOP plan. Exchanges were in the Gop plan. The GOP plan was rated to lower insurance rates 9% by CBO the democrat plan was set to raise it by 9%. Having more people buy insurance is not a benefit when they get no new benefit.
All republicans have said, is not that the sky is falling, it is that this administration is over stepping their bounds, will people on the left gladly accept the restraints and violations (the mandate) and ignore the CBO’s ratings (lower costs, pre x conditions, exchanges) plans that the republicans present.
“You seem to be predisposed ti intensely dislike any that is driven by Democrats — even if Obamacare followed the Republican healthcare blueprint.”
Something that follows a blue print while violating rights, increasing costs by at least 9%, and forces people to buy insurance is NOT republican. I do not accept crap like that.
Also: I mentioned the democrat plan to make an opt out 401k plan as being something I approved.
List one thing you approved of for bush. GO!
Oh before you start, did you know he had 3 retirment new versions of 401ks that were not only tax deferred, and would give a tax credit on your return, they were also tax exempt at withdrawal? You’ve never heard of it. Other than me. Why? Because the left controls this country. It was the best plan for the middle class in the history of our nation for retirement. I got $1,200 dollars back in 2007 when I filed my taxes because I invested. I only made $38,000. I invested it. That gives me $1,200 more to invest per year, and also makes my investments not taxed as normal income when I remove them at retirement. That would be something I would expect democrats to agree with.
But they didn’t. The cut off was just over $80,000 a year. They said it “benefited the upper class more than the lower”.
My problem is not with plans that are democrat in nature, my problem is that since 2000 your party has become so filled with followers, that democrats don’t know about the plan I just said above. How do I know? Well, tell me what I just explained, what it is called. I left the name out on purpose. State the name of that retirement type of 401k. Your party just passed something that helps no one, and cannot even explain how it is a benefit. Go ahead, explain to me the benefit to obamacare that would not be a benefit in the bill originally put forth by republicans. Tell me the title of the bill put forth by republicans, and the date.
Don’t know it?
Didn’t research? Oh look, a democrat who doesn’t know better….what are the odds?
My anger with your party comes with the arrogance, and the following, as well as the lack of research becaues you believe you’re the “good guy” for the middle class and republicans are “corporate” people…
Despite the fact that comcast has building code here put in place by democrats favoring them, despite the fact that the Ohio guy passed flight codes favoring fed ex, despite the fact that green energy is favored in the tax code due to democrats, despite all that actual cronyism, no no, it’s the republicans because they want to decrease tax rates.
The reason us on the right are mad right now is your party is acting like a bunch of morons. My discontent with obamacare is not some disagree with everything the left does kind of mentality.
I’m specific. Call me captain specific. You don’t list specifics. I’m mad about real issues, real bills, real corruption.
Why did I go on a tangent? To show examples. Everything I just listed I doubt you know.
What is the name of the Republican healthcare plan? I couldn’t find anything on a formal plan except for a few bullet/talking points without any specifics (similar to Romney’s plan he posted on-line.) I found this:
But neither confirm there was an actual formal plan presented to Congress. Can you help me find it?
And what is the name of the 401(k) plan you refer to above? I haven’t heard of any plan that is tax-free at withdrawal.
May 29, 2013 at 4:24 pm
Patti Cake in the East says:
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God Bless You, Bob..your post is SPOT ON!
May 30, 2013 at 11:01 am
Celtica says:
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Bob – aka Captain Specific, I do understand where you are coming from as we lived under the Bush reign for 8 years with 2 unnecessary wars funded by tax cuts (seriously, tax cuts at a time of war???), body bags each week at Dover AFB, terrorist attacks on our soil that Bush didn’t lift a finger to prevent, and his own personal FUBARing of the economy. Is that specific enough for you, captain?
Do you know how 401k’s started? It wasn’t to help the middle class, it was for large corporations (and I work for one), to help their highest earners excape taxes through the use of a tax deferred account. They only opened up 401k to our hoi poi, not out of largesse of their heart, but because they had to offer it to a broader spectrum of employees (not not all) if they offered to to the senior staff. Want interesting reading? Read “Retirement Heist” and how these corporations raided the retirement funds to pad their own books for their own bonuses and the declared that pension funds were unsustainable. Pension funds were NEVER unsustainable. In fact they were so over funded that corporations found a legal way to rob them blind, leaving us with squat.
Do I trust Republicans with money? Hell, no.
I can only thank God that Bush didn’t get his hands on our social security accounts. That would have been FUBAR’ed too.
Do I trust that Obamacare will improve access for the general population for basic medical care? Yes. Why? Because the Republicans don’t want it.
May 30, 2013 at 11:07 am
Celtica says:
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Bob, you asked for one thing that Bush did for which I approved his actions. Bush sent massive aid to Africa to prevent the spread of AIDS. I applauded his actions then as I do now.
May 30, 2013 at 11:27 am
Celtica says:
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PS: Retirement Heist was written by a financial reporter for the Wall Street Journal who followed this development for years.
May 28, 2013 at 1:43 pm
wvagt says:
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“…taxes would go up to pay for the subsidies, forcing other prices to rise.”
Didn’t you read this line of the article, or just the parts you like?
“This is like a shell game to me,” said Republic Congressional Assemblyman Dan Logue, co-chair of the assembly health committee, who predicted that taxes would go up to pay for the subsidies, forcing other prices to rise.”
Hardly a credible source to quote, WV. Or did you just pick out the parts you liked and ignored the rest?
I think the State of CA unveiled these preliminary rates and they are the only thing that is relevant. Not what pundits on either side say.
May 29, 2013 at 8:00 am
jw says:
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WV, a politician (of ANY party) is never a good source. It is in their best interest to tell you what they think you want to hear. Doesn’t mean they believe it or that it is true.
May 29, 2013 at 8:56 am
wvagt says:
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Agreed, a politician is generally not a good source. Neither can the executive director of an advocacy group be depended upon to give an unbiased view of his or her organization and its goals.
May 30, 2013 at 7:20 am
jw says:
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wvagt, I agree, advocacy groups are not going to present an unbiased view. For that matter, they will most likely present opinion as fact.
May 29, 2013 at 1:46 pm
Patti Cake in the East says:
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I will bet you any money that you are a Rachel Maddow fan.
Your reply is under my post. Not paranoid, just attentive to detail PC. Something you might want to work on. And I’m sure you feel the same way about me as you do Celtica. We are after all one person (in spirit anyway…)
May 29, 2013 at 4:26 pm
Patti Cake in the East says:
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Sorry, Libby..I hit ‘reply’ under Celtica’s post but it posted under yours..it really wasn’t meant for you.
May 29, 2013 at 4:52 pm
Libby says:
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No biggie. I respectively withdraw my response.
May 30, 2013 at 11:13 am
Celtica says:
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Dear Patti Cakes:
As a matter of fact, I do like Rachel Maddow as much as I like Joe Scarborough (yes, have a go at MSNBC). I also listen to Rush Limbaugh on the radio when I happen to be in the car during his broadcasts. Don’t confuse this with liking Rush Limbaugh — but it helps to know when big windbag thoughts come from in open forums. Same with Hannity on Fox.
Rachel and Joe lay it to form your own conclusions out but Rush and Hannity tell you what to think.
You are so right Bob, this is why Obama got re-elected. It all sounds good and of course it must be the truth since Obama said it. The low information voters are going to kill what is left of this country, if they only had a clue.
Don’t assume all those pro-healthcare are uninformed and unintelligent, draetish. That only highlights the ignorant bias you have of fellow Americans. Not nice.
What is “un-nice” about being a liberal? At least I don’t lump all conservatives into a group as uninformed or “low information” like you did with liberals (aka pro-healthcare.)
You have lumped Conservatives into categories in other posts of yours in other threads. You only pop in when something “praising” Obama arises. Otherwise, you are silent. That’s what I call a typical sheep. I’ve never met anyone who has the time you seem to have to troll the online forums in defense of Obama ALL DAY long. There isn’t a new thread here that praises Obama or something he’s done that you aren’t a part of. Things that make you go hmmmm….
May 29, 2013 at 11:26 am
Libby says:
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Another country, I mean conservative, heard from. Thank you for your in-depth insight, uct. As far as having all day to troll, I manage my time very well. Maybe you should take a time management course.
And I do not “praise” Obama. I state my opinions on healthcare, birth control, and other liberal values I hold dear. If they don’t agree with you, feel free to thumb me down. Or better yet, don’t bother to read them all together. Believe me, you will not hurt my feelings by doing so. I really could care less what you think of me, as I too remember dealing with you on other posts and it was a most unpleasant experience.
May 29, 2013 at 1:37 pm
jw says:
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Uh, uct, you might want to refrain from throwing stones from that glass house of yours. In order to know all the articles that include posts by Libby, you must be wandering IJ quite often. I’m on here frequently, and I don’t even see all Libby’s posts.
May 29, 2013 at 12:57 pm
Captain Planet says:
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If what CA is discovering is actually true, why is it a bad thing? Do you want it to not be true and if so, why? Just so President Obama fails? I personally believe it is not American to wish ill on The President. I didn’t wish ill on President Bush. I just disagreed with him. Wasn’t hopeful he would fail.
Captain: We really didn’t have to hope he’d fail. He was a miserable failure from the git. But don’t get me started on him. I’ll have Agent and Bob jumping up and down on my head.
And you’re right. If it’s true it’s a good thing for the country. It’s sort of unpatriotic not to hope it is. But what do I know. I’m just a uninformed liberal…
Child tax credit expanded: Middle class still benefits, Obama kept it in play. Thank you George Bush is due from the middle class.
Tax credit for investments. Obama is scaling back the income it cuts off at, but he’s keeping it. Thank you George Bush is due from the middle class.
Plans to make investments not only apply for a tax credit, but are tax deferred and tax exempt at withdrawal: Thank you George Bush was due. However, you democrats considered it helped the wealthy too much.
Expansion of medicare: For some reason you democrats insult it and try to make things about the deficit in that area. Go figure, it helps someone and is republican we shouldn’t do it because it costs money. Thank you George Bush due from the middle class.
Economic issues: The tax cuts were passed, and everyone at the time agreed, were passed to deal with the start of a recession after the dot com boom (what recession? it didn’t blow up like the housing one despite being a large bubble burst) Thank you George Bush for stopping that recession. Another round was passed in 2003 after the twin towers destruction had managed to also hinder growth. Thank you George W Bush for stopping that recession. And by 2007 we were in fact growing at a good rate. The second bubble was not related to the tax cuts. Even liberal sites agree.
Moving on: Housing Crises: NY Times called George W’s plan to revise the housing industry the most expansive regulations since FDR in 2003. Thank you George W for trying to lead the spearhead for change before the bubble burst. Thank you Barney Frank for stating there were no issues of “soundness and financial security”.
List one bill that George W passed that destroyed the economy, or harmed the middle class.
I just listed the child tax credit, medicare expansion, the investment tax credit, and the 401k plans he attempted to pass to allow middle class americans to have their full 401k balance available to them rather than the government taxing it as regular income.
Please tie George W Bush to the economic collapse through a law or name specific regulations he removed. He was not a deregulator. Please cite the deregulation.
The reason I get on you about Bush, is you know nothing about him and love to blame him for everything.
Bush W was more a liberal than a conservative, which is why I get confused about you guys hating him.
By the by: I actually did not like his child tax credits. But clearly you do as Obama passed those parts of the tax plan.
A Look Back at Bush’s Economic Missteps
Two terms, eight years — and eight significant economic mistakes
•Bush’s Budget Blunders
•The Return to Deficits
•Iraq
•Tax Cuts for the Rich
•Financial Regulation
•Telling Us to Go Shopping
•Energy Policy
•A State of Denial
•The Muddled Bailout
U.S. economic performance was its weakest since Herbert Hoover’s presidency – Bush inherited the largest surplus in American history and left office with the largest deficit (since surpassed by Barack Obama). His overall record of job creation, personal income and stock market performance is the worst since the Hoover presidency, though Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter are down there with him.
The Republican Party suffered major setbacks in Bush’s second term – Bush was sworn in as president with a Republican House and a Republican Senate. By the time he turned the Oval Office over to Barack Obama, Democrats were in control of both houses of Congress. And while Republicans have regained control of the House, its conservative leaders have used Bush’s record as a case study in what they don’t want: out-of-control federal spending (domestic and military), new federal entitlements (Medicare drug benefit), government bailouts (financial industry, auto industry) and unfunded federal mandates (education reform).
And his tax cuts are now being called a miserable failure, even by the economist that spearheaded them.
California, like the federal government, can predict what the cost will be but we all know it never ends up that way. Let’s see how it looks one year from now. We saw what happened with the costs for implementing Obamacare. They weren’t even close. Why would this be any different.
Uhhh, the plan calls for more development than a year. Do you really think our old healthcare problems can be fixed in a year? We all need to be thinking long term and American fellowship. This isn’t a short term correction.
How can this be????
Take something that cost about $2K a month down to. $300.00???
How much are taxxes going up to cover the subsidized plans?
Well, this is a group rate negotiated by state regulators. Good old capitalistic competition.
Hate to say I told you so, FFA, but….
NOW how do you feel about Obamacare???
I can’t speak for FFA, Libby, but I still feel the same way about Obamacare. They are all a bunch of lying, cheating, under-handed thieves. How’s that for how I feel about it? Can you honestly defend this administration?? Take Obamacare out of the mix for a minute. How do you really feel about this POTUS and his crooked band of thieves?
I am disappointed by many of Obama’s decisions and his inability to unite Congress and the country. But that doesn’t mean I would have liked the alternative any better. Mitt Romney is as two-faced as they come. Says and does one thing in Massachusetts and a totally different thing when running for President. He was pandering to the right and it made him untrustworthy in my eyes.
As for Obama being a crook, I do not recall any convictions for that to date – only hopeful republicans slinging around accusations with little to no proof. Again, not the American way. Innocent until proven guilty, even if you are from Chicago.
As for Obama being a crook, I do not recall any convictions for that to date – only hopeful republicans slinging around accusations with little to no proof. Again, not the American way. Innocent until proven guilty, even if you are from Chicago.
Are your ears and eyes closed Libby? Do you not listen to the news? It is not the hopeful republicans slinging around accusations, it is the truth! Benghazi, the IRS, the AP. With all that you still deny he is a liar? Oh that’s right, he didn’t know about any of it till he saw it on the news which is even worse.
from draetish: It is not the hopeful republicans slinging around accusations, it is the truth! Benghazi, the IRS, the AP. With all that you still deny he is a liar? Oh that’s right, he didn’t know about any of it till he saw it on the news which is even worse.
Tish — Benghazi will never go away because you feel that it is to your political advantage to keep it in the news because of the threat of Hillary running in 2016. Did you not learn anything from Hannity’s “Stop Hillary Express.” You fought so hard to keep Hillary out of the White House in 2008 that Obama had a cakewalk into it. Twice Get a clue.
Give credit to the majority of the American people for seeing Benghazi for what it is — a political ploy and nothing more. Why do you cry for those 4 people when Bush sent US soldiers home in body bags by the thousands?
The AP story does not have legs, even by the AP.
The IRS will be kept alive by the tea party. No one likes the IRS and no one likes the tea party. No sympathy for either party there.
draetish – how come the media is on your side and the defender of truth as long as it is spouting negative publicity about Obama, but as soon as it’s the other way around you discount it as liberal propogada? I repeat, Obama has not been formally accused, charged, or convicted of any crime. THAT is the truth. You wishing it were not so does not make it so. Grow up.
FFA:
Pay attention to the fine details here. Whoever wrote this article did a bang up job:
“The exchange will also offer what it calls platinum plans, in which co-payments are very low or non-existent. These plans would cost $500 for those who do not qualify for subsidies, but as little as $300 per month for low-wage earners.”
$300 a month with someone who has subsidies $500 for someone who does not.
This is not more affordable without the subsidy than the current average. The current average in 2012 was $5,615. $6,000 is in fact an increase of almost 6%. From 2010 to 2012 (2 years) the increase was 4%. The increase in premiums has gone at a more rapid rate, not lesser. While one can argue this changes year to year, which it does, we can definitely state that this is not on the downward trend. Further to the point: These rates have not been approved yet.
Let’s try to see what happens when it happens.
If it were going down to $300 without subsidy, it would be quite a feat.
http://m.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/health-insurance-premiums.aspx
Ohmigoodness, this is terrible! You mean it’s MORE AFFORDABLE?
Has anyone seen the sky since it fell? This will cause the world to spin off its axis.
Has anyone seen your head since it floated into the clouds?
You are the most anti-realist person I’ve ever seen.
God forbid you would ever do any research. That settles it, obama care is great!
What did you say from day one? Obama care is GREAT!
You never questioned it, you never researched it in terms of costs and premiums. Clearly, as you followed this article as methodlogy to show it is more affordable, while it is in fact, not.
Do your research and get off your frat boyism attitude. Ooo rah go cougs!!
Were you one of those in college?
Dear Bob, I never said Obamacare was great. I just didn’t see the sky falling when it passed.
You seem to be predisposed ti intensely dislike any that is driven by Democrats — even if Obamacare followed the Republican healthcare blueprint.
It addressed a huge need in this country – especially for those schlumps like us who depend on healthcare from our employers .
Celitica,
“Dear Bob, I never said Obamacare was great. I just didn’t see the sky falling when it passed.”
The bill is passing in parts. That was intentional. The effect of the plan has yet to come. More to the point: It’s a bad and invasive plan, provable to anyone who looks at CBO numbers, deficit numbers, and what the plan aims to due. It addresses insurance. If forces people to buy insurance. The parts of the bill that were republican tend to be talking points for democrats (exchanges, pre existing conditions covered). This does not healthcare. If all Obama could think of was to force the insurance to be bought, limit investments on insurance companies (which builds capital to pay for claims, this was just a talking point, nothing more) and a subsidy, then even you have to admit his plan to change “health care” was a failure. There were no modifications to healthcare. “It addressed a huge need in this country – especially for those schlumps like us who depend on healthcare from our employers”
Wrong. Raising the costs of premiums for everyone, while forcing people who don’t have insurance to buy insurance at a higher cost is not helping anyone. List to me one benefit. If you say more people are covered that is not a benefit. Before they received treatment and the hospital absorbed the cost. Even with the hospital absorbing the cost the cost of insurance for people clearly was not at risk, as now that they are all buying insurance, the cost of insurance is not going down. Forcing someone to buy insurance is not a benefit. The pre existing conditions was also covered in the GOP plan. Exchanges were in the Gop plan. The GOP plan was rated to lower insurance rates 9% by CBO the democrat plan was set to raise it by 9%. Having more people buy insurance is not a benefit when they get no new benefit.
All republicans have said, is not that the sky is falling, it is that this administration is over stepping their bounds, will people on the left gladly accept the restraints and violations (the mandate) and ignore the CBO’s ratings (lower costs, pre x conditions, exchanges) plans that the republicans present.
Celitica,
“You seem to be predisposed ti intensely dislike any that is driven by Democrats — even if Obamacare followed the Republican healthcare blueprint.”
Something that follows a blue print while violating rights, increasing costs by at least 9%, and forces people to buy insurance is NOT republican. I do not accept crap like that.
Also: I mentioned the democrat plan to make an opt out 401k plan as being something I approved.
List one thing you approved of for bush. GO!
Oh before you start, did you know he had 3 retirment new versions of 401ks that were not only tax deferred, and would give a tax credit on your return, they were also tax exempt at withdrawal? You’ve never heard of it. Other than me. Why? Because the left controls this country. It was the best plan for the middle class in the history of our nation for retirement. I got $1,200 dollars back in 2007 when I filed my taxes because I invested. I only made $38,000. I invested it. That gives me $1,200 more to invest per year, and also makes my investments not taxed as normal income when I remove them at retirement. That would be something I would expect democrats to agree with.
But they didn’t. The cut off was just over $80,000 a year. They said it “benefited the upper class more than the lower”.
My problem is not with plans that are democrat in nature, my problem is that since 2000 your party has become so filled with followers, that democrats don’t know about the plan I just said above. How do I know? Well, tell me what I just explained, what it is called. I left the name out on purpose. State the name of that retirement type of 401k. Your party just passed something that helps no one, and cannot even explain how it is a benefit. Go ahead, explain to me the benefit to obamacare that would not be a benefit in the bill originally put forth by republicans. Tell me the title of the bill put forth by republicans, and the date.
Don’t know it?
Didn’t research? Oh look, a democrat who doesn’t know better….what are the odds?
My anger with your party comes with the arrogance, and the following, as well as the lack of research becaues you believe you’re the “good guy” for the middle class and republicans are “corporate” people…
Despite the fact that comcast has building code here put in place by democrats favoring them, despite the fact that the Ohio guy passed flight codes favoring fed ex, despite the fact that green energy is favored in the tax code due to democrats, despite all that actual cronyism, no no, it’s the republicans because they want to decrease tax rates.
The reason us on the right are mad right now is your party is acting like a bunch of morons. My discontent with obamacare is not some disagree with everything the left does kind of mentality.
I’m specific. Call me captain specific. You don’t list specifics. I’m mad about real issues, real bills, real corruption.
Why did I go on a tangent? To show examples. Everything I just listed I doubt you know.
Bob:
What is the name of the Republican healthcare plan? I couldn’t find anything on a formal plan except for a few bullet/talking points without any specifics (similar to Romney’s plan he posted on-line.) I found this:
http://www.gop.gov/indepth/pledge/healthcare
And this:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/05/republicans-on-plans-to-replace-obama-health-care-law/
But neither confirm there was an actual formal plan presented to Congress. Can you help me find it?
And what is the name of the 401(k) plan you refer to above? I haven’t heard of any plan that is tax-free at withdrawal.
God Bless You, Bob..your post is SPOT ON!
Bob – aka Captain Specific, I do understand where you are coming from as we lived under the Bush reign for 8 years with 2 unnecessary wars funded by tax cuts (seriously, tax cuts at a time of war???), body bags each week at Dover AFB, terrorist attacks on our soil that Bush didn’t lift a finger to prevent, and his own personal FUBARing of the economy. Is that specific enough for you, captain?
Do you know how 401k’s started? It wasn’t to help the middle class, it was for large corporations (and I work for one), to help their highest earners excape taxes through the use of a tax deferred account. They only opened up 401k to our hoi poi, not out of largesse of their heart, but because they had to offer it to a broader spectrum of employees (not not all) if they offered to to the senior staff. Want interesting reading? Read “Retirement Heist” and how these corporations raided the retirement funds to pad their own books for their own bonuses and the declared that pension funds were unsustainable. Pension funds were NEVER unsustainable. In fact they were so over funded that corporations found a legal way to rob them blind, leaving us with squat.
Do I trust Republicans with money? Hell, no.
I can only thank God that Bush didn’t get his hands on our social security accounts. That would have been FUBAR’ed too.
Do I trust that Obamacare will improve access for the general population for basic medical care? Yes. Why? Because the Republicans don’t want it.
Bob, you asked for one thing that Bush did for which I approved his actions. Bush sent massive aid to Africa to prevent the spread of AIDS. I applauded his actions then as I do now.
PS: Retirement Heist was written by a financial reporter for the Wall Street Journal who followed this development for years.
“…taxes would go up to pay for the subsidies, forcing other prices to rise.”
Didn’t you read this line of the article, or just the parts you like?
“This is like a shell game to me,” said Republic Congressional Assemblyman Dan Logue, co-chair of the assembly health committee, who predicted that taxes would go up to pay for the subsidies, forcing other prices to rise.”
Hardly a credible source to quote, WV. Or did you just pick out the parts you liked and ignored the rest?
An Assemblyman is just as credible a source as the executive director of an advocacy group, don’t you agree? Do you think Mr. Wright isn’t biased?
I think the State of CA unveiled these preliminary rates and they are the only thing that is relevant. Not what pundits on either side say.
WV, a politician (of ANY party) is never a good source. It is in their best interest to tell you what they think you want to hear. Doesn’t mean they believe it or that it is true.
Agreed, a politician is generally not a good source. Neither can the executive director of an advocacy group be depended upon to give an unbiased view of his or her organization and its goals.
wvagt, I agree, advocacy groups are not going to present an unbiased view. For that matter, they will most likely present opinion as fact.
I will bet you any money that you are a Rachel Maddow fan.
You’d lose. Any other bets you’d like to take?
was referring to Celtica, Libby…paranoid much?
Your reply is under my post. Not paranoid, just attentive to detail PC. Something you might want to work on. And I’m sure you feel the same way about me as you do Celtica. We are after all one person (in spirit anyway…)
Sorry, Libby..I hit ‘reply’ under Celtica’s post but it posted under yours..it really wasn’t meant for you.
No biggie. I respectively withdraw my response.
Dear Patti Cakes:
As a matter of fact, I do like Rachel Maddow as much as I like Joe Scarborough (yes, have a go at MSNBC). I also listen to Rush Limbaugh on the radio when I happen to be in the car during his broadcasts. Don’t confuse this with liking Rush Limbaugh — but it helps to know when big windbag thoughts come from in open forums. Same with Hannity on Fox.
Rachel and Joe lay it to form your own conclusions out but Rush and Hannity tell you what to think.
You are so right Bob, this is why Obama got re-elected. It all sounds good and of course it must be the truth since Obama said it. The low information voters are going to kill what is left of this country, if they only had a clue.
Don’t assume all those pro-healthcare are uninformed and unintelligent, draetish. That only highlights the ignorant bias you have of fellow Americans. Not nice.
Oh and Libby you are really one to talk about being nice, your liberalism shows everytime you post.
What is “un-nice” about being a liberal? At least I don’t lump all conservatives into a group as uninformed or “low information” like you did with liberals (aka pro-healthcare.)
Libby,
You have lumped Conservatives into categories in other posts of yours in other threads. You only pop in when something “praising” Obama arises. Otherwise, you are silent. That’s what I call a typical sheep. I’ve never met anyone who has the time you seem to have to troll the online forums in defense of Obama ALL DAY long. There isn’t a new thread here that praises Obama or something he’s done that you aren’t a part of. Things that make you go hmmmm….
Another country, I mean conservative, heard from. Thank you for your in-depth insight, uct. As far as having all day to troll, I manage my time very well. Maybe you should take a time management course.
And I do not “praise” Obama. I state my opinions on healthcare, birth control, and other liberal values I hold dear. If they don’t agree with you, feel free to thumb me down. Or better yet, don’t bother to read them all together. Believe me, you will not hurt my feelings by doing so. I really could care less what you think of me, as I too remember dealing with you on other posts and it was a most unpleasant experience.
Uh, uct, you might want to refrain from throwing stones from that glass house of yours. In order to know all the articles that include posts by Libby, you must be wandering IJ quite often. I’m on here frequently, and I don’t even see all Libby’s posts.
If what CA is discovering is actually true, why is it a bad thing? Do you want it to not be true and if so, why? Just so President Obama fails? I personally believe it is not American to wish ill on The President. I didn’t wish ill on President Bush. I just disagreed with him. Wasn’t hopeful he would fail.
How absolutely politically correct of you, Captain.
Captain: We really didn’t have to hope he’d fail. He was a miserable failure from the git. But don’t get me started on him. I’ll have Agent and Bob jumping up and down on my head.
And you’re right. If it’s true it’s a good thing for the country. It’s sort of unpatriotic not to hope it is. But what do I know. I’m just a uninformed liberal…
Well, thanks for FINALLY admitting it, Libby. Me, Bob, Agent…we’ve all been waiting for you to see the light.
Whatever it takes to appease you, Patti. I know how testy and grouchy you republicans are.
I wasn’t hopeful he’d fail, I’m just upset that he did and in such a horrific way.
Child tax credit expanded: Middle class still benefits, Obama kept it in play. Thank you George Bush is due from the middle class.
Tax credit for investments. Obama is scaling back the income it cuts off at, but he’s keeping it. Thank you George Bush is due from the middle class.
Plans to make investments not only apply for a tax credit, but are tax deferred and tax exempt at withdrawal: Thank you George Bush was due. However, you democrats considered it helped the wealthy too much.
Expansion of medicare: For some reason you democrats insult it and try to make things about the deficit in that area. Go figure, it helps someone and is republican we shouldn’t do it because it costs money. Thank you George Bush due from the middle class.
Economic issues: The tax cuts were passed, and everyone at the time agreed, were passed to deal with the start of a recession after the dot com boom (what recession? it didn’t blow up like the housing one despite being a large bubble burst) Thank you George Bush for stopping that recession. Another round was passed in 2003 after the twin towers destruction had managed to also hinder growth. Thank you George W Bush for stopping that recession. And by 2007 we were in fact growing at a good rate. The second bubble was not related to the tax cuts. Even liberal sites agree.
Moving on: Housing Crises: NY Times called George W’s plan to revise the housing industry the most expansive regulations since FDR in 2003. Thank you George W for trying to lead the spearhead for change before the bubble burst. Thank you Barney Frank for stating there were no issues of “soundness and financial security”.
List one bill that George W passed that destroyed the economy, or harmed the middle class.
I just listed the child tax credit, medicare expansion, the investment tax credit, and the 401k plans he attempted to pass to allow middle class americans to have their full 401k balance available to them rather than the government taxing it as regular income.
Please tie George W Bush to the economic collapse through a law or name specific regulations he removed. He was not a deregulator. Please cite the deregulation.
The reason I get on you about Bush, is you know nothing about him and love to blame him for everything.
Bush W was more a liberal than a conservative, which is why I get confused about you guys hating him.
By the by: I actually did not like his child tax credits. But clearly you do as Obama passed those parts of the tax plan.
A Look Back at Bush’s Economic Missteps
Two terms, eight years — and eight significant economic mistakes
•Bush’s Budget Blunders
•The Return to Deficits
•Iraq
•Tax Cuts for the Rich
•Financial Regulation
•Telling Us to Go Shopping
•Energy Policy
•A State of Denial
•The Muddled Bailout
U.S. economic performance was its weakest since Herbert Hoover’s presidency – Bush inherited the largest surplus in American history and left office with the largest deficit (since surpassed by Barack Obama). His overall record of job creation, personal income and stock market performance is the worst since the Hoover presidency, though Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter are down there with him.
The Republican Party suffered major setbacks in Bush’s second term – Bush was sworn in as president with a Republican House and a Republican Senate. By the time he turned the Oval Office over to Barack Obama, Democrats were in control of both houses of Congress. And while Republicans have regained control of the House, its conservative leaders have used Bush’s record as a case study in what they don’t want: out-of-control federal spending (domestic and military), new federal entitlements (Medicare drug benefit), government bailouts (financial industry, auto industry) and unfunded federal mandates (education reform).
And his tax cuts are now being called a miserable failure, even by the economist that spearheaded them.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/the-bush-tax-cut-failure/
I don’t think I owe Mr. Bush any thank you except thank him for finally leaving office.
California, like the federal government, can predict what the cost will be but we all know it never ends up that way. Let’s see how it looks one year from now. We saw what happened with the costs for implementing Obamacare. They weren’t even close. Why would this be any different.
Uhhh, the plan calls for more development than a year. Do you really think our old healthcare problems can be fixed in a year? We all need to be thinking long term and American fellowship. This isn’t a short term correction.
I THINK the rates quoted in the article are from a rate filing submitted to the California DOI.