Tell that to loyal employees and their families. If St.Paul/Travelers provide a faction of the severance pay given executives, then we might think they care. Wayne, believe you may have forgotten it’s the People [employees] that has made St. Paul/Travelers and their Stockholders, millions upon millions.
HealthCare and Job searches are not cheap and we all realize St. Paul/Travelers is a for Profit Operation, but their is NO Danger of their closing the doors by seeing that each individual laid off is taken care up financially for at least ONE FULL YEAR.
How many top executives to you believe will be included in this 3,000 and what severance package do you think they already have sealed up.
Typical. And don’t you love Jay Fishman’s reponse? “We certainly feel very good about that.” He says this in response to being asked about the 3,000 jobs he is eliminating. Too bad one of those jobs is not his. One can only hope that one of the disgruntled employees takes matters into his own hands and ensures that there will be 3,001 jobs gone. With the CEO position in need of replacement.
I would like to echo Reagan’s comment.The employee’s at St.Paul/Traveler’s, and their families,must appreciate not knowing if they are going to be one of the 3,000 who will soon be un-employed, but also to know the joy it will give their esteemed leader to deliver their pink slips.What an embarrassment to our industry!
It’s interesting how cutting 3,000 jobs saves $350 million when cutting Jay Fishman’s job might save them $20 million alone (based upon $10 million in salary and another $10 million in contractual incentives for these type of positions). What a joke – next he will be transferring claims handling to an office in India.
Typical. Guess “Greed is good” is still the catchphrase in our industry.
Chief executive Jay Fishman told securities analysts the company expects to reduce its 30,200-member work force by 10 percent  and save more than $350 million. “We certainly feel very good about that,” Fishman said.
So this is what it comes down to. Laying people off so that Mr. Fishman can use the corporate jet one more day, Mrs. Fishman can get one more Botox treatment, and Teenage Daughter Fishman can get that boob job she was promised for graduation. (Which would certainly explain why Mr. Fishman “feels good about” the massive layoffs in store for him employees.)
This is what greed is leading up to, folks. Gotta make that 1 cent profit on the stock!
If memory serves me right both of these companies prided themselves on the caliber of employee and the extensive and comprehensive training they received. While I am certainly not of the same brilliant caliber of Fishman it would seem that jettisoning a large group of highly trained employees would not only increase expenses down the road (i.e. training) but also would act as an incentive to have competitors locate and aggressively go after current business.
Maybe I am oversimplifying this but a 10% layoff would not seem to be a prudent business decision over any period greater than 12 months.
Years ago this industry prided itself on the tenure of it’s employees. Now, again, it’s the almighty dollar that prevails. It’s not the front line underwriters or marketing people who start soft markets or “cash flow underwriting”, it’s the CEO’s and CFO’s. Could the time be right for mass jettisoning of CFOs and CEOs? These people have no idea how to run a company profitably, and probably never will. Their profits are on the backs of their employees. After 35 years in this business (both company and broker sides), I have come to the conclusion that the current crop of executives (I use the term loosely) have not learned from the past and are doomed to repeat it. Maybe we should outsource the CFO and CEO jobs to India!
Didn’t everyone see this coming??
If you thought that they were going to keep everyone you are out of touch as to why companies merge. 10% I think is good, that number is usually much higher.
The large posting of reserves only goes to ensure that this company will continue to be around and be financially strong for many many years. I may be a little upset as a shareholder only if I were going to cash in soon, but if I planned to keep the stock for the next 5-10 years, it is still a great investment.
How interesting that Mr. Fishman was the same one quoted in December of 01 in another on line service regarding St. Paul dropping medical malpractice, that the company is driven “to produce a business that is clearly shareholder focused”. And that the company would be “less focused on relationship building with the notion that we will make it back in the future.”
How sad that the noble profession of insurance has been reduced to a financial vehicle for the upper echelon executives and Wall Street!
This was inevitable, and I would agree that–for now–10% is a decent number….”if” it stops there, which it probably won’t.
I worked for the former USF&G (remember them?) who (after Norm Blake streamlined us to be “ripe for the picking”)was bought and blended in (dismantled) by the St. Paul companies. Having been downsized (twice)it’s no picnic, but I think the worst was knowing the numbers to get laid off but not having details on where/when/who for great lengths of time.
Working daily with the “Sword of Damocles” suspended over your head is a real stress inducer. The decisions made also takes quite a toll on those left behind. Good luck to those of you at St.Paul Travelers during this.
When you take two behemoth companies (already over-staffed) and merge them this is the initial outcome. They got more layers of middle management than a premium mattress. Jay Fishman as you may recall came from Travelers, knew their issues and problems so this isn’t unexpected. As a 32 year veteran of the insurance industry this does’nt surprise me at all. Hopefully a better company will emerge.
It just another day in Insurance Executive Kingdom, Ruled by uncaring, passion-less, ethically challenge, individuals who frequently go home at night and kick the dog for
.01cent drop in STOCK Pricing. They serve with Ice Cool Conviction and Count every BEAN while paying awe to their All Mighty Stockholders God. JUST REMEMBER “The Meek shall inherit the earth and those with the Gold shall inherit the furnace, which overflows with Hot Burning Gold covering everything in its path.
Why is it that Corporate America continues to show profits to their stockholders by cutting jobs? Seems this is the only way they know how to make a profit………. What ever happened to the old way of working for it?
I’ve been through a merger, and a layoff, and I certainly understand the bitter feelings expressed in most of your comments. BUT, I also understand that this is a FOR-PROFIT business. Which means that ultimately it IS about the shareholders. Travelers can cut 3,000 now and improve their results, or they can cut EVERYONE’S job when they have to shut the door because of poor expense management. It’s a business decision, period. It’s unfortunate, and no one is disputing that fact. It is, however, a necessary measure that needs to be taken to remain profitable.
I left St. Paul last year due to some of the practices, which I felt, were implemented to save expenses at the expense of employee salaries (e.g., do more with fewer claims adjusters, unfortunately they are many other examples). I told other employess that the reason Jay Fishman came over from Traveler’s was to some day merge St. Paul with Traveler’s operation. Of course, no one believed me, and I was cast as an employee who was not loyal to the company. It seems ironic that the writing on the wall, as I saw it over a year ago, seems to be coming to pass. One thing that employees have to keep in mind, that in todays economic environment, the only one that is going to look out for #1 is you. Loyalty has nothing to do with it. I feel bad for St. Paul as the company used to look out for its employees, but those days are a thing of the past.
The merger pointed towards job cuts right from the start. What concerns me is the huge deposit into reserve account. What a great way to not only hide the profits being made, but take a loss! They’re get a tax break and still reap income on the huge reserve accounts.
Never fear, John Kerry is riding in on his white horse to create millions of new jobs!
He will fix it, he has a plan. Just tune in the next few days and you will hear all about it. I’m sure Hillary has a few new ideas also.
Echo the comment of only two of the most comments I’ve seen – Fishman feels good about 3,000 losing their jobs??
Not a slip of the tongue that – cutting staff was his forte at Travelers – the answer to any and all problems.
How about $1.5 Billion in under-reserves – some due diligence that was!! Perhaps Fishman saw he could pick off Travelers because his semi-retired buddy Lipp would agree to anything, Fishman’s financials not withstanding.
I remember USF&G’s Norm Blake. His slogan was “watch us win” After playing a 5 year shell game, he took a $30 million golden parachute. I guess it was Norm who won! Funny, it wasn’t too long before I saw him broadcast on C-Span. Seems he was one of the crook directors who were called to testify before congress in the Enron scandal. Is there justice? I wrote him right before the sale and told him he and his business school cohorts were the Robber-Barons of the modern age; and I agreed with point stated by “God is Watching”: Hell is waiting.
Fishman learned well at the hand of his mentor Shady, I mean Sandy – Weill on how to squeeze the juice out of the fruit, and piggyback on the next acquisition. Travelers was a lag on Sandy’s bonus, so thousands had to pay with their jobs.
I’m a die hard Republican, but these guys are plutocrats. They don’t care about creating value in the marketplace, only market value as part of their 5 year plan.
I hope you’re kidding! 20 years of continous pomposity, Kerry stands for nothing, and protests everything. Show me he knows something! As for John Boy Edwards, he is an infant that has suckled the nipples of the insurance industry his entire career. He and his ilk are the reason there is a trade deficit!
I too was a long time alumnus of USF&G. It is a shame that insurance carriers are truly just becoming financial vehicles and lose sight of the fact that insurance is truly a business of years, not just until the next quarterly stock anaylst meeting. They might win the quarter but lose their companies in the process.
So now the other foot falls! Who would not have expected a significant layoff from this merger? I guess they just had to wait to count the number of [early] retirees.
You gotta be crazy, you gotta have a real need.
You gotta sleep on your toes, and when you’re on the street,
You gotta be able to pick out the easy meat with your eyes closed.
And then moving in silently, down wind and out of sight,
You gotta strike when the moment is right without thinking.
And after a while, you can work on points for style.
Like the club tie, and the firm handshake,
A certain look in the eye and an easy smile.
You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to,
So that when they turn their backs on you,
You’ll get the chance to put the knife in.
You gotta keep one eye looking over your shoulder.
You know it’s going to get harder, and harder, and harder as you
get older.
And in the end you’ll pack up and fly down south,
Hide your head in the sand,
Just another sad old man,
All alone and dying of cancer.
– As a 35 year veteran of the P&C industry, I can affirm what Jimbo has shared and while I currently work for neither carrier, I have done so in the past.
– The haughty and elitist mantel worn by inept, officious, overpaid and unaccountable senior management at these carriers is the real problem, that is left unidentified. The nuts and bolts of the business of insurance is something alien to them, as they only address the financial instrument aspects of the capital held in trust for claims.
As such, they are so far removed from what it takes in goodwill created by the experience of the employees that actually run the company, that the consequences of continued culpable uninformed decisions erode the value of the company, both in shareholder value and quality of retained employees, that customer no service is the hidden mantra.
In other words, this same senior management could not adequately perform any class of subordinated technical job and having not been required to, are so far from reality, as to be deemed personally responsible. If they were held personally responsible for the treasure held in trust for claims as the fiduciaries they are, then perhaps the current equations for downsizing
for the apparent benefit of economies of scale would be allocated much differently.
– The current system supported by the unknowing Wall Street shills, identified as analysts, who only read the propaganda produced by this same senior management that autonomously writes the history is perhaps best examplified by the ENRON and other greed recently surfaced. So when you see a carrier’ senior management publish that they were under reserved, the truth is they have routinely over paid losses
as a consequence of inadequate staff, with the majority of it also being inexperienced, as experience cost more and most of those with it have been cast out over the past two decades. So metaphorically, such carriers rationalization in writing the unchallenged history is that: “they are not overweight, they are under height.”
– In closing, it will not be the meek that will inherit the benefits, but the plaintiff’s bar that currently is and will continue to consume an insurance industry, and like the current diminishiong accessability to medical benefits, that most will not be able to afford, so too with the appearance of a promise to pay by the P&C entities, that will be late, if at all.
– Until government does its job to protect the public from the ethically dishonest, expect to pay more and receive less, with a heavy dose of propaganda.
Mergers are common place these days. Most of the time it equals survival. The insurance industry is in a load of trouble now because they aren’t getting enough money in premium. 3000 jobs in a 30000+ company is nothing. For most people who get laid off anyway, you out to take the pay, go on vacation and then apply within a month or so, you’d get the job, vacation and come back to the same sorry job you had before. Only in America.
If you think this will end at 3000 jobs you are sadly mistaken, this is only the beginning. If the bottom line does not look good enough to the powers that be, then more workers will be cut. It doesn’t matter that the cuts will be in all the wrong places, ie clerical, claims assistants, examiners, adjusters, probably some supervisors. It only matters that the bottom line will look good enough for one quarter to satisfy wall street. It is probably true that the merged companies are now over staffed, but we should be looking to trim at the top before we cut out the real workers. The bloated executive ranks should be cut by at least 10%, then take a look at the bottom line and see how good it will look.
– Rodney is either a kid or has reverted to one intellectually having evidenced by his remarks that he has no real world corporate experience.
– The financial conditions are due 100%, as a consequence of unskilled management that does not understand the business they are in. They are trying to wag the dog by tail of the results of the business performance. So the tail attempting to perform as the head will always have the fecal results.
I doubt they will get it right. At upper level the decisions will be made on political alliances. At the worker level it will be made based on the orginazational chart and location consolidations. There will most likely still be a far share of hard workers and sand baggers. In a perfect world the ones that would get laid off would be the ones that don’t work much anyway – that would be too logical.
250 years of history, and they lose it with the aid of computer models! Under-reserving, cash-flow underwriting, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul; I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today: Greed is Good!
No one has common sense, no one cares about the business they are in and how to make it better. All that is cared about now is how to extract money from a customer’s pocket, and the insurance policy is simply the vehicle that is used, and hold on tight and pray there are no claims, because most carriers don’t know what to do with it. Until our industry stops hiring Wharton-indoctrinated 5-year plan robber-barons, we will continue to see “consolidation”, which is simply another name for a shell game and slight of hand.
If you think the Democrats along with Mr Kerry are going to fix everything regarding jobs, think again! The democrats are to blame for the situation we are experiencing. Remember if your position within a company can be outsourced YOUR at risk.Our congress of the Clinton years has also contributed to this dilemma.
An area that needs to be looked at is the amount an officer of a company can receive as a bonus. If that bonus were reduced to a realistic amount and reinvested in a company it would create jobs.
We are currently facing overworked employees which in turn sacrifices customer service which in turn creates loss of jobs due to lack of client retention which in turn increases share holder(because of job elimination) gain which increases the bonus’ our company executives receive all off the backs of the worker that gets the job done!
So if you think Mr Kerry is going to correct the current economic conditions who do you think will pick up the tab for that?
Yes, can agree with Mr.Vandelay and Mr.Wilsker. Mr. Fishman feels good about it, so good he’s going to personally give each and every one of those three thousand employees their pink slip-what a great personal touch! And, don’t be surprised about transferring claims handling in India: many companies already use their cheaper labor to man the customer service lines (read AOL for one) Moral: if you want loyalty, get a dog, as corporate America is losing (or has already lost) it!!
“For most people who get laid off anyway, you out to take the pay, go on vacation and then apply within a month or so, you’d get the job, vacation and come back to the same sorry job you had before. Only in America.”
You’ve apparently never been laid off. I have twice; both times it took 7 months plus to land a new job, neither of which was with the previous employer. My income still has not recovered from the first layoff. I wish the experience was as pleasant as you described.
I knew when St. Paul and Travelers announced their merger that the deal would be a loser for everyone except top management and stockholders (and maybe not even the stockholders).
I am appalled that Mr Fishman could even get the words out of his mouth that he is pleased to be laying off 3000 people not matter what the bottom line. As a former Travelers employee I am not however surprised. They are known for their compassionate treatment of employees.
I can’t imagine how corporations in America who constantly lay off, and treat their employees so disposibly can possibly expect that at the end of the day that they will be left with the best and the brightest and motivated employees. A company with a fresh idea such as reducing the grossly padded salaries deferred payments and stock options to top management instead of laying off workers who make fraction of their salaries, would suddenly find itself in the position of having a staff of loyal workers – not a group who is terrified, demorlaized depressed, and resentfully doing the work of four people. No wonder the class action suit regarding mandatory unpaid overtime in insurance was ruled in favor of the workers. Do it again is what they are begging for.
I’m inclined to agree with this summation. Expertise is in short supply and what there is consists primarily of those who didn’t challenge the false assumptions made by some in senior management. A senior management whose lack of comprehension of the value of customer service and deserved loyalty was equaled or exceeded only by their lack of comprehension of the underpinnings of insurance: sound, consistent underwriting and fair and prompt handling of claims presented as a consequence of those risks assumed.
History repeats again, one needs to look at Fremont Ins and the loss its loyal employees suffered….. tragedy, nevermind the owners as a new company is up n about. I could not agree more, the situation screams Union for the scapegoats. Where is the The Insurance Commissioner????
I’m not surprised that St. Paul Travelers is cutting jobs, to look good to their shareholders. I’ve been in this business circa 25 years, and know the pain the 3,000 will be going through. My prior job was with a Fireman’s Fund affiliated company that reinvented itself more times than Madonna. Each time, more and more people got cut. All the while, the Fund’s parent, Allianz, was throwing sponsorship money at Juan Montoya’s Formula One race car.
Some of you have said that jobs will be eventually outsourced to India, or Thailand, or wherever. The first ones to go will be the computer or I.T. jobs. Next will be clerical, and then claims. Underwriting will follow after that. But the suits will be safe.
I was a former employee of both St Paul (usf*G) and Travelers..
I can say withour reservations that
both compaines deserve each other. I have no respect for either.
Fishman – Another corporate fat cat that makes his money off the backs of his employees. Employees have been laid off to send their jobs overseas and front line workers salaries increases have been non existent due to “Large claim Losses” but yet his salary keeps going up. Employee benefit cost go up each year but they want more weekend, holiday and late nights worked to increase the companies bottom line. Greed is ugly!!!!
Wayne Schlagle:
Tell that to loyal employees and their families. If St.Paul/Travelers provide a faction of the severance pay given executives, then we might think they care. Wayne, believe you may have forgotten it’s the People [employees] that has made St. Paul/Travelers and their Stockholders, millions upon millions.
HealthCare and Job searches are not cheap and we all realize St. Paul/Travelers is a for Profit Operation, but their is NO Danger of their closing the doors by seeing that each individual laid off is taken care up financially for at least ONE FULL YEAR.
How many top executives to you believe will be included in this 3,000 and what severance package do you think they already have sealed up.
LG
Typical. And don’t you love Jay Fishman’s reponse? “We certainly feel very good about that.” He says this in response to being asked about the 3,000 jobs he is eliminating. Too bad one of those jobs is not his. One can only hope that one of the disgruntled employees takes matters into his own hands and ensures that there will be 3,001 jobs gone. With the CEO position in need of replacement.
I would like to echo Reagan’s comment.The employee’s at St.Paul/Traveler’s, and their families,must appreciate not knowing if they are going to be one of the 3,000 who will soon be un-employed, but also to know the joy it will give their esteemed leader to deliver their pink slips.What an embarrassment to our industry!
It’s interesting how cutting 3,000 jobs saves $350 million when cutting Jay Fishman’s job might save them $20 million alone (based upon $10 million in salary and another $10 million in contractual incentives for these type of positions). What a joke – next he will be transferring claims handling to an office in India.
Typical. Guess “Greed is good” is still the catchphrase in our industry.
Chief executive Jay Fishman told securities analysts the company expects to reduce its 30,200-member work force by 10 percent  and save more than $350 million. “We certainly feel very good about that,” Fishman said.
So this is what it comes down to. Laying people off so that Mr. Fishman can use the corporate jet one more day, Mrs. Fishman can get one more Botox treatment, and Teenage Daughter Fishman can get that boob job she was promised for graduation. (Which would certainly explain why Mr. Fishman “feels good about” the massive layoffs in store for him employees.)
This is what greed is leading up to, folks. Gotta make that 1 cent profit on the stock!
What a disgrace. I hope these corp folks sleep well at night.
If memory serves me right both of these companies prided themselves on the caliber of employee and the extensive and comprehensive training they received. While I am certainly not of the same brilliant caliber of Fishman it would seem that jettisoning a large group of highly trained employees would not only increase expenses down the road (i.e. training) but also would act as an incentive to have competitors locate and aggressively go after current business.
Maybe I am oversimplifying this but a 10% layoff would not seem to be a prudent business decision over any period greater than 12 months.
Years ago this industry prided itself on the tenure of it’s employees. Now, again, it’s the almighty dollar that prevails. It’s not the front line underwriters or marketing people who start soft markets or “cash flow underwriting”, it’s the CEO’s and CFO’s. Could the time be right for mass jettisoning of CFOs and CEOs? These people have no idea how to run a company profitably, and probably never will. Their profits are on the backs of their employees. After 35 years in this business (both company and broker sides), I have come to the conclusion that the current crop of executives (I use the term loosely) have not learned from the past and are doomed to repeat it. Maybe we should outsource the CFO and CEO jobs to India!
Didn’t everyone see this coming??
If you thought that they were going to keep everyone you are out of touch as to why companies merge. 10% I think is good, that number is usually much higher.
The large posting of reserves only goes to ensure that this company will continue to be around and be financially strong for many many years. I may be a little upset as a shareholder only if I were going to cash in soon, but if I planned to keep the stock for the next 5-10 years, it is still a great investment.
How interesting that Mr. Fishman was the same one quoted in December of 01 in another on line service regarding St. Paul dropping medical malpractice, that the company is driven “to produce a business that is clearly shareholder focused”. And that the company would be “less focused on relationship building with the notion that we will make it back in the future.”
How sad that the noble profession of insurance has been reduced to a financial vehicle for the upper echelon executives and Wall Street!
This was inevitable, and I would agree that–for now–10% is a decent number….”if” it stops there, which it probably won’t.
I worked for the former USF&G (remember them?) who (after Norm Blake streamlined us to be “ripe for the picking”)was bought and blended in (dismantled) by the St. Paul companies. Having been downsized (twice)it’s no picnic, but I think the worst was knowing the numbers to get laid off but not having details on where/when/who for great lengths of time.
Working daily with the “Sword of Damocles” suspended over your head is a real stress inducer. The decisions made also takes quite a toll on those left behind. Good luck to those of you at St.Paul Travelers during this.
When you take two behemoth companies (already over-staffed) and merge them this is the initial outcome. They got more layers of middle management than a premium mattress. Jay Fishman as you may recall came from Travelers, knew their issues and problems so this isn’t unexpected. As a 32 year veteran of the insurance industry this does’nt surprise me at all. Hopefully a better company will emerge.
It just another day in Insurance Executive Kingdom, Ruled by uncaring, passion-less, ethically challenge, individuals who frequently go home at night and kick the dog for
.01cent drop in STOCK Pricing. They serve with Ice Cool Conviction and Count every BEAN while paying awe to their All Mighty Stockholders God. JUST REMEMBER “The Meek shall inherit the earth and those with the Gold shall inherit the furnace, which overflows with Hot Burning Gold covering everything in its path.
Compassionate Insurance Professional
Why is it that Corporate America continues to show profits to their stockholders by cutting jobs? Seems this is the only way they know how to make a profit………. What ever happened to the old way of working for it?
Why not cut premiums so the Agents can maintain a living without loosing to the direct writers?
Amen! And amen!
I’ve been through a merger, and a layoff, and I certainly understand the bitter feelings expressed in most of your comments. BUT, I also understand that this is a FOR-PROFIT business. Which means that ultimately it IS about the shareholders. Travelers can cut 3,000 now and improve their results, or they can cut EVERYONE’S job when they have to shut the door because of poor expense management. It’s a business decision, period. It’s unfortunate, and no one is disputing that fact. It is, however, a necessary measure that needs to be taken to remain profitable.
I left St. Paul last year due to some of the practices, which I felt, were implemented to save expenses at the expense of employee salaries (e.g., do more with fewer claims adjusters, unfortunately they are many other examples). I told other employess that the reason Jay Fishman came over from Traveler’s was to some day merge St. Paul with Traveler’s operation. Of course, no one believed me, and I was cast as an employee who was not loyal to the company. It seems ironic that the writing on the wall, as I saw it over a year ago, seems to be coming to pass. One thing that employees have to keep in mind, that in todays economic environment, the only one that is going to look out for #1 is you. Loyalty has nothing to do with it. I feel bad for St. Paul as the company used to look out for its employees, but those days are a thing of the past.
I hope Jay stocked up on some of that worthless management liability & D & O product they’re always pushing.
The merger pointed towards job cuts right from the start. What concerns me is the huge deposit into reserve account. What a great way to not only hide the profits being made, but take a loss! They’re get a tax break and still reap income on the huge reserve accounts.
Never fear, John Kerry is riding in on his white horse to create millions of new jobs!
He will fix it, he has a plan. Just tune in the next few days and you will hear all about it. I’m sure Hillary has a few new ideas also.
Echo the comment of only two of the most comments I’ve seen – Fishman feels good about 3,000 losing their jobs??
Not a slip of the tongue that – cutting staff was his forte at Travelers – the answer to any and all problems.
How about $1.5 Billion in under-reserves – some due diligence that was!! Perhaps Fishman saw he could pick off Travelers because his semi-retired buddy Lipp would agree to anything, Fishman’s financials not withstanding.
I hope you enjoy your new government job under President Kerry!!!
I remember USF&G’s Norm Blake. His slogan was “watch us win” After playing a 5 year shell game, he took a $30 million golden parachute. I guess it was Norm who won! Funny, it wasn’t too long before I saw him broadcast on C-Span. Seems he was one of the crook directors who were called to testify before congress in the Enron scandal. Is there justice? I wrote him right before the sale and told him he and his business school cohorts were the Robber-Barons of the modern age; and I agreed with point stated by “God is Watching”: Hell is waiting.
Fishman learned well at the hand of his mentor Shady, I mean Sandy – Weill on how to squeeze the juice out of the fruit, and piggyback on the next acquisition. Travelers was a lag on Sandy’s bonus, so thousands had to pay with their jobs.
I’m a die hard Republican, but these guys are plutocrats. They don’t care about creating value in the marketplace, only market value as part of their 5 year plan.
Hey Sara,
I hope you’re kidding! 20 years of continous pomposity, Kerry stands for nothing, and protests everything. Show me he knows something! As for John Boy Edwards, he is an infant that has suckled the nipples of the insurance industry his entire career. He and his ilk are the reason there is a trade deficit!
I too was a long time alumnus of USF&G. It is a shame that insurance carriers are truly just becoming financial vehicles and lose sight of the fact that insurance is truly a business of years, not just until the next quarterly stock anaylst meeting. They might win the quarter but lose their companies in the process.
So now the other foot falls! Who would not have expected a significant layoff from this merger? I guess they just had to wait to count the number of [early] retirees.
You gotta be crazy, you gotta have a real need.
You gotta sleep on your toes, and when you’re on the street,
You gotta be able to pick out the easy meat with your eyes closed.
And then moving in silently, down wind and out of sight,
You gotta strike when the moment is right without thinking.
And after a while, you can work on points for style.
Like the club tie, and the firm handshake,
A certain look in the eye and an easy smile.
You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to,
So that when they turn their backs on you,
You’ll get the chance to put the knife in.
You gotta keep one eye looking over your shoulder.
You know it’s going to get harder, and harder, and harder as you
get older.
And in the end you’ll pack up and fly down south,
Hide your head in the sand,
Just another sad old man,
All alone and dying of cancer.
– As a 35 year veteran of the P&C industry, I can affirm what Jimbo has shared and while I currently work for neither carrier, I have done so in the past.
– The haughty and elitist mantel worn by inept, officious, overpaid and unaccountable senior management at these carriers is the real problem, that is left unidentified. The nuts and bolts of the business of insurance is something alien to them, as they only address the financial instrument aspects of the capital held in trust for claims.
As such, they are so far removed from what it takes in goodwill created by the experience of the employees that actually run the company, that the consequences of continued culpable uninformed decisions erode the value of the company, both in shareholder value and quality of retained employees, that customer no service is the hidden mantra.
In other words, this same senior management could not adequately perform any class of subordinated technical job and having not been required to, are so far from reality, as to be deemed personally responsible. If they were held personally responsible for the treasure held in trust for claims as the fiduciaries they are, then perhaps the current equations for downsizing
for the apparent benefit of economies of scale would be allocated much differently.
– The current system supported by the unknowing Wall Street shills, identified as analysts, who only read the propaganda produced by this same senior management that autonomously writes the history is perhaps best examplified by the ENRON and other greed recently surfaced. So when you see a carrier’ senior management publish that they were under reserved, the truth is they have routinely over paid losses
as a consequence of inadequate staff, with the majority of it also being inexperienced, as experience cost more and most of those with it have been cast out over the past two decades. So metaphorically, such carriers rationalization in writing the unchallenged history is that: “they are not overweight, they are under height.”
– In closing, it will not be the meek that will inherit the benefits, but the plaintiff’s bar that currently is and will continue to consume an insurance industry, and like the current diminishiong accessability to medical benefits, that most will not be able to afford, so too with the appearance of a promise to pay by the P&C entities, that will be late, if at all.
– Until government does its job to protect the public from the ethically dishonest, expect to pay more and receive less, with a heavy dose of propaganda.
End…
Mergers are common place these days. Most of the time it equals survival. The insurance industry is in a load of trouble now because they aren’t getting enough money in premium. 3000 jobs in a 30000+ company is nothing. For most people who get laid off anyway, you out to take the pay, go on vacation and then apply within a month or so, you’d get the job, vacation and come back to the same sorry job you had before. Only in America.
If you think this will end at 3000 jobs you are sadly mistaken, this is only the beginning. If the bottom line does not look good enough to the powers that be, then more workers will be cut. It doesn’t matter that the cuts will be in all the wrong places, ie clerical, claims assistants, examiners, adjusters, probably some supervisors. It only matters that the bottom line will look good enough for one quarter to satisfy wall street. It is probably true that the merged companies are now over staffed, but we should be looking to trim at the top before we cut out the real workers. The bloated executive ranks should be cut by at least 10%, then take a look at the bottom line and see how good it will look.
Thats why years ago there should have been a union for all adjusters, and for any other claims people
– Rodney is either a kid or has reverted to one intellectually having evidenced by his remarks that he has no real world corporate experience.
– The financial conditions are due 100%, as a consequence of unskilled management that does not understand the business they are in. They are trying to wag the dog by tail of the results of the business performance. So the tail attempting to perform as the head will always have the fecal results.
I doubt they will get it right. At upper level the decisions will be made on political alliances. At the worker level it will be made based on the orginazational chart and location consolidations. There will most likely still be a far share of hard workers and sand baggers. In a perfect world the ones that would get laid off would be the ones that don’t work much anyway – that would be too logical.
250 years of history, and they lose it with the aid of computer models! Under-reserving, cash-flow underwriting, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul; I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today: Greed is Good!
No one has common sense, no one cares about the business they are in and how to make it better. All that is cared about now is how to extract money from a customer’s pocket, and the insurance policy is simply the vehicle that is used, and hold on tight and pray there are no claims, because most carriers don’t know what to do with it. Until our industry stops hiring Wharton-indoctrinated 5-year plan robber-barons, we will continue to see “consolidation”, which is simply another name for a shell game and slight of hand.
If you think the Democrats along with Mr Kerry are going to fix everything regarding jobs, think again! The democrats are to blame for the situation we are experiencing. Remember if your position within a company can be outsourced YOUR at risk.Our congress of the Clinton years has also contributed to this dilemma.
An area that needs to be looked at is the amount an officer of a company can receive as a bonus. If that bonus were reduced to a realistic amount and reinvested in a company it would create jobs.
We are currently facing overworked employees which in turn sacrifices customer service which in turn creates loss of jobs due to lack of client retention which in turn increases share holder(because of job elimination) gain which increases the bonus’ our company executives receive all off the backs of the worker that gets the job done!
So if you think Mr Kerry is going to correct the current economic conditions who do you think will pick up the tab for that?
Yes, can agree with Mr.Vandelay and Mr.Wilsker. Mr. Fishman feels good about it, so good he’s going to personally give each and every one of those three thousand employees their pink slip-what a great personal touch! And, don’t be surprised about transferring claims handling in India: many companies already use their cheaper labor to man the customer service lines (read AOL for one) Moral: if you want loyalty, get a dog, as corporate America is losing (or has already lost) it!!
“For most people who get laid off anyway, you out to take the pay, go on vacation and then apply within a month or so, you’d get the job, vacation and come back to the same sorry job you had before. Only in America.”
You’ve apparently never been laid off. I have twice; both times it took 7 months plus to land a new job, neither of which was with the previous employer. My income still has not recovered from the first layoff. I wish the experience was as pleasant as you described.
I knew when St. Paul and Travelers announced their merger that the deal would be a loser for everyone except top management and stockholders (and maybe not even the stockholders).
Contrary to your statement that “The insurance industry is in a load of trouble now because they aren’t getting enough money in premium,” the truth is that the P&C industry has a record amount of surplus (see http://www3.ambest.com/Frames/Frameserver.asp?site=press&Tab=1&altsrc=2&RefNum=6556465577484649). Let’s shed no tears for the “struggling” insurance companies.
I am appalled that Mr Fishman could even get the words out of his mouth that he is pleased to be laying off 3000 people not matter what the bottom line. As a former Travelers employee I am not however surprised. They are known for their compassionate treatment of employees.
I can’t imagine how corporations in America who constantly lay off, and treat their employees so disposibly can possibly expect that at the end of the day that they will be left with the best and the brightest and motivated employees. A company with a fresh idea such as reducing the grossly padded salaries deferred payments and stock options to top management instead of laying off workers who make fraction of their salaries, would suddenly find itself in the position of having a staff of loyal workers – not a group who is terrified, demorlaized depressed, and resentfully doing the work of four people. No wonder the class action suit regarding mandatory unpaid overtime in insurance was ruled in favor of the workers. Do it again is what they are begging for.
I’m inclined to agree with this summation. Expertise is in short supply and what there is consists primarily of those who didn’t challenge the false assumptions made by some in senior management. A senior management whose lack of comprehension of the value of customer service and deserved loyalty was equaled or exceeded only by their lack of comprehension of the underpinnings of insurance: sound, consistent underwriting and fair and prompt handling of claims presented as a consequence of those risks assumed.
History repeats again, one needs to look at Fremont Ins and the loss its loyal employees suffered….. tragedy, nevermind the owners as a new company is up n about. I could not agree more, the situation screams Union for the scapegoats. Where is the The Insurance Commissioner????
I’m not surprised that St. Paul Travelers is cutting jobs, to look good to their shareholders. I’ve been in this business circa 25 years, and know the pain the 3,000 will be going through. My prior job was with a Fireman’s Fund affiliated company that reinvented itself more times than Madonna. Each time, more and more people got cut. All the while, the Fund’s parent, Allianz, was throwing sponsorship money at Juan Montoya’s Formula One race car.
Some of you have said that jobs will be eventually outsourced to India, or Thailand, or wherever. The first ones to go will be the computer or I.T. jobs. Next will be clerical, and then claims. Underwriting will follow after that. But the suits will be safe.
I was a former employee of both St Paul (usf*G) and Travelers..
I can say withour reservations that
both compaines deserve each other. I have no respect for either.
Fishman – Another corporate fat cat that makes his money off the backs of his employees. Employees have been laid off to send their jobs overseas and front line workers salaries increases have been non existent due to “Large claim Losses” but yet his salary keeps going up. Employee benefit cost go up each year but they want more weekend, holiday and late nights worked to increase the companies bottom line. Greed is ugly!!!!