Anon, my jaw dropped when I read this…how can you force someone to have insurance that doesn’t want it? I thought we lived in a free society…
Personally, she lost my interest when she started running a “dirty” campaign with her husband. I’m tired of her telling me what’s wrong with everyone else. I could care less what she thinks about Obama, President Bush, etc…
It’s pretty sad when you have to tear someone else down to make yourself look good.
I’m not saying I’m voting for Obama now, but Hilary has certainly lost my vote.
I agree that this is not the way to “improve” on our health care system. Does it need some improvement? Sure. I don’t know of anything that is perfect that couldn’t use some tweaking. Personally, one way to get health insurance affordable is to reduce the med mal lawsuits, which drive up the premiums of the doctors. While I understand it goes much deeper than this, it is at least a start. There are certainly other ways to bring the price of health insurance down, but I don’t like her approach.
Quite frankly, I am surprised at the lack of uproar this has received on this site today. Everyone must be working. :)
I’m not saying I agree with her plan, but it seems to me our “free” society has created part of the problem – people expect “free” health care – and they get it
at our (govt & others who have ins) expense. How would Nebraskan suggest we handle the person who “didn’t want” health insurance when they are sick or injured and can’t pay for the services ? other than lawsuits, which costs the govt and plaintiff, and considering they probably don’t have assets to collect anyway. Maybe we should start allowing health providers to turn them away ?
Also, Nebraskan, the correct term is “couldn’t care less” if you “could care less” it means that you do care to some degree. Not trying to tear you down to make me look good :) just commenting
Not sure how Billary will handle this, but I have seen that Obama has proposed a penalty or surcharge of around 50%. Not sure how I feel about that yet, but the problem you bring up is one to think about.
Isn’t instituing a program like this just another name for socialism? We will take your hard earned wages and use them for something we feel that everyone needs to have, regardless of your personal needs.
Yes, Social Security is socialism, so this isn’t the first time we have traveled this route, but I am very surprised their has not been more backlash for her plan. Who determines if a person “can afford to buy health insurance but doesn’t”?
Years ago when she first started talking about her universal health care plan it was socialist.
I don’t like being forced to have coverage if I don’t want it, but I see both sides of the coin.
I pay for other dead-beats to have coverage via my tax dollars, so why not pay for it out of my own paycheck for myself? Why not take it out of the dead-beats’ paychecks, too? It’s not a pleasant solution, but it’s more fair that what we have now.
It’s like asking – do you want to be totally screwed or just sorta screwed? Totally ripped off or just sorta ripped off? Bad or worse?
I voted this morning, but I wasn’t overjoyed at my choices. After spending months reading about the candidates and trying to make an informed decision, I still feel like those in the running don’t know the first thing about middle-class life in the United States.
So I picked the candidate I felt had the most potential for being open-minded, reasonable, willing to compromise or make changes. Notice I didn’t list ‘honest’. Unfortunately, I’m way too jaded to think that’s a possibility. Guess we will see how it goes in November.
Kudos to all of you who have posted so far and refrained from the tired-***, empty, nonsensical “All Liberals Are Idiots vs. All Conservatives Are Stupid” argument. That is SO worn out.
Since when is a$$ is swear word? I typed ‘tired-a$$’ and they censored me. Good grief!
Helloooo, IJ… I’m what you call a “Grown Up”. If I want to say ‘a$$’, I’m going to say ‘a$$’. You don’t have to show it as ‘***’ like some Sunday school teacher’s hands over our eyes and ears. -groan-
Anon Y Mous….forgive me for typing incorrectly…not trying to tear YOU down, but it must be nice to be perfect 100% of the time (i bet you never have sex do you because your too busy correcting grammar)
and you don’t fix a problem by just forcing EVERYONE to have health insurance, that’s putting a bandaid on something that needs stitches. and how do you decide who can afford insurance and who can’t based off their gross income? What if Joe Schmoe and I make $50k a year, but Joe has to pay child support for 3 kids, has a car payment, student loans, a mortgage and credit card debt…..i hate to tell you this, but that stretches $50k pretty far and then to have Hillary come in and tell him he needs to pay for insurance on top of that because she wants to be able to say she “gave” everyone health insurance.
my first suggestion is to stop giving free health insurance to illegal aliens. and the other suggestion is what someone else already said….stop all of these law suits against doctors that result in frivolous amounts of money being awarded (or maybe they could just hire you, Anon Y Mous, to stand over their shoulder and correct all of their mistakes)
and furthermore….people need to realize that insurance isn’t free….it should be affordable, but shouldn’t necessarily be free.
Ok so I read it. Let’s take the control and payment of care away from the large corporations and evil insurance companies and let/force the people pay.
Say health care cost $4k per person per year ( that’s on the cheap side of todays managed care corporate prices) X 303M people = $1.2 Trillion.
Obviously the kids can’t pay. We have 180M people from 20-65 years in age who could pay. That’s $6,600 for each person over 20 and under 65.
Yes, we need to cover medicare ages as this, contrary to the government belief, is not already funded.
But hold on… there are 35M making less than $30k per year and there is no way the dems (left or center) will make them pay. (#s derived from US Census website)
So we the people will pay for the youth, elderly and the poor. Ahhh … What a nice federal ringing sound that brings to heart.
Back to math. We the 145M people paying for the $1.2T cost = $8,200 per person over 20. I am willing to commit to $16k per year for health care for my part (including wife) to have everyone covered with one caveat. “Everyone must agree and put in this amount or go to jail as a deadbeat.”
Good luck on getting this through once you explain the cost to the working class.
So that idea didn’t work… Lets try the next political shell game. Let the rich pay. Yeah… that’s the ticket! If we structure the payments according to income tax brackets then it could be spread more evenly.
Do you realize in 2006 the total individual federal income tax received was $1.2Trillion? (Wikipedia)
So, we need to collect from the people the same amount as we collected last year in federal income tax.
Double the federal income tax for individuals to get everyone healthcare.
Uh I dunno… small guess… I don’t think that will pass either.
So unless the care becomes significantly cheaper than it is today… stop….wait…. I must repost this statement I read earlier;
“People believe they have a right to health care. After all, Hillary said so, didn’t she? But you cannot receive health care unless some doctor or health practitioner surrenders some of his time – his life – to you. He may be willing to do this for compensation, but that’s his choice. You have no “right” to his time or property. You have no right to his or any other person’s life or to any portion thereof.”
I therefore believe good health care is something you must pay for personally through work and strive to make good buying decisions just like any other product .
If you have extra time/money help the poor.
Yes, even sitting here in lovely liberal Berkeleyville.. I said it.
The failure of their employers?! Yeah, that’s why people start gas stations, so they can buy health care for their employees. And if they don’t like it, Hillary will just garnishee everyone’s wages. That’s what Amerika is all about.
OMG!! Who is going to decide who can afford it? Will they go through your budget and determine what other obligations you have, what family you’re supporting or maybe she’ll get your mortgage/rent payment reduced so that you can afford health care. I believe that there should be healthcare coverage for every American but this is a bit too Big Brother for me.
Anyone who needs “free” health care should submit a budget and personal finance plan. My guess is that once you cut out the cigarettes, lottery tickets, booze, paying premiums for groceries at 7 Eleven, unneccesary cell phone, cable bill, etc you could find enough to pay for healthcare. Then we would only have a small problem.
Of all the candidates running for president — both Republicans and Democrats — the one who has raised the most in campaign contributions from the insurance industry is Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.). http://www.pianet.com/NewsCenter/BizPolitics/1-8-08-6.htm
Libby, I love your point, but if you can’t force people to have health ins…you can’t force them to be healthy and make good decisions regarding their lives either. :)
Oh brother. The problem is that adding 40+ million to the roles of the insured – people who often DON’T WANT insurance and pay for health care out of pocket, will increase the price for all because of the increase in demand. Therefore, most people will only be able to afford the govt subsidized plan. Therefore, people who now can afford their own insurance will be forced into the govt plan.
Don’t think for a minute that she and her cohorts don’t realize this. They are trying to control a huge part of our economy – not to mention a huge part of your life. Grow up people!
I went for Obama who is calling for requiring parents to get insurance for their kids so they can go to the doctor. That’s something not too expensive as most kids are relatively healthy and I think his plan calls for some help for the people working and who’s income puts them between Medicaid and being able to afford insurance.
Clinton does raise a real issue (same one Romney before he became a conservative raised) which is what do you do with the guy who can afford health care but figures he will take a chance and if anything major comes along he can stick the government or hospital with the bill. I don’t support mandatory coverage for all but do see there is a real problem here.
Before debating if the solution is correct, perhaps we can see if we’ve identified the correct problem in the first place. My view is that all citizens not having health insurance is NOT a problem… it is merely a choice.
The response will most likely be that prohibitive cost removes the idea of choice. Nonsense. One can afford health insurance by giving up smoking, drinking, or sharing one car instead of having two. Tens of thousands of low-income families do this every year. Because their choice to protect their children with health insurance is more important to them that the status of that 2nd car, or a fancier house that they also cannot afford.
My view is that the problems with health care are not being discussed. Med Mal premiums, folks, are not the driving force, by the way. I agree there are needs to improve the court issues and verdict nonsense – but that will not impact the scales as you hope they will.
The greater cost savings throughout the health industry is waste, pure and simple. Every analysis of any such system has proven that lack of use, duplicate equipment sitting idle, expired materials, etc are by far the largest area for improvement. There are all kinds of facilities with very expensive gear that are not getting used — while there are other places trying to use the same materials 3 times intended capacity.
The ugliest problem has been cited, but isn’t popular to talk about – health providers being openly allowed to turn away patients (by the way, they figure out how to do some of this on their own). Why this is so unpleasant for people I don’t understand… but it is needed in a world that uses money to buy things.
If a homeless person is hungry or needs a blanket, they cannot go to Safeway and take the food… but they can go to a hospital, who is forced to treat them. How silly is that?… we don’t address the front problem, but we cry over the end result?
Illegal aliens are one of our greatest financial sins on this subject. They walk into any hospital and get any service they need. This is a GREAT encouragement for any sick foreigner to come here… if your child was sick, and this was how to get them treated, you would move mountains to do it. And so we pay for this… while not feeding that homeless American at the Safeway. Not very clever, are we?
Let people that want health insurance buy a basic policy with a large deductible if they want to. Get health insurance out of the employers offices — the tax issues are what screws that up — your employer has no business picking your health plan in the first place. Then if people don’t want to buy their own policy, they don’t have to.
Then merely tell the health providers that they do not have to treat patients, other than to the level of immediate first aid ONLY. No beds, no rooms, no specialists… just a first aid station style for ABC basics.
For the waste, that will come only when there are less interference issues by government in the first place. If you want to see how government costs layer each step, just review the method of Medicaid and Medicare billing auditing that are already in place. That’s more than a 15% cost kick all by itself, just in auditors and billing clerks.
While I realize the emotional issues are the ones that get talked about… the politicians are playing you on a field they’ve set up where they can beat you. If they address the ACTUAL problems, then they have to be accountable. Instead, you need to focus on the root causes, and not the symptoms, or the complications that have developed because of the errors at the beginning. Go back to the basics.
“…what do you do with the guy who can afford health care but figures he will take a chance and if anything major comes along he can stick the government or hospital with the bill?”
I like how everyone reacts negatively to this. What is the difference if the communists take my money via taxes and then spend it on things I don’t approve of, or if they force me to spend my money on something? Either way, they have taken my money.
This will happen someday. Remember, the UNITED STATES was founded as a REPUBLIC, and NOT a DEMOCRACY, as we now have.
As a wise man once said:
“A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage. ”
KLS, I agree with you on principle. But, they won’t take any tax dollars from the deadbeats. They never do. She’ll make sure that there are all kinds of loopholes for “low income” translate no income, no working, breeding out of wedlock like rabbits, scumbags, who are referred to as the “poor families” by the drive by media. You and I will be taxed to the hilt and get NOTHING, just like always
This country has for over 50 years ran the darn near perfect socialized medicine. The agency who runs it is The V.A. (Veterans Affairs) If you are eligabale for veterans medical you can be treated in Ca. on Friday, go visiting in Fla on the next Tuesday get sick and ALL of yourr records including your last visint is part of a nationwide data bank that ANY physican or hospital can access.
If it can work for the V.A. why can’t we make it work for ALL Americans?
As far as this not getting a larger posting, let’s not forget the parade for the NY Giants. It goes to show how many are still involved in Superbowl.
Clinton vs Obama, I don’t think either is the best for America. Mr. Obama keeps saying he never voted for the war. Of course not, he wan’t in the senate and wasn’t allowed to. Dah. Sen. Clinton says if she would have been given the truth about the situation and not lied to by Pres. Bush she would not have voted for it. The bottom line is the entire country was lied to. She should have voted her own conscience and not use a crutch now.
The dem’s better start looking for some better qualified candidates, it appears the field is getting mighty slim
Willy-I have no problem with a collection agency but the problem comes when you have someone go in for something major. We can be talking about big bucks. I know someone who had a baby in neonatal care for 4-5 months and the bill was way over $100,000. Luckily they had insurance but is it realistic to expect to get real money from someone making $40-50k? You would be lucky to get enough to pay the interest running up on the judgment.
Hmm, let’s see. We have a group of individual men & women that calls themselves government. They derive their revenue through violence or the threat thereof. So why is anyone surprised when some lowlife, scum sucking, parasite-er, I mean politician (with apologies to all lowlife, scum sucking parasites)-proposes something like this?
O.K. I’ll save everyone’s time and list the cliche, zombie mind, statist responses that are inevitable to anyone who even dares to think that governments can possibly do anything wrong: but what about (the children, health care, the roads, ad nauseam)? What are you, an anarchist? If you don’t like it here why don’t you leave? What would happen if…? Well, we’ve got the best system in the world here.
So, now on to Hillary’s Plan. Would like to know how she would propose to monitor it. For example, say I am divorced. My ex provides the health insurance for me and my children via his health ins. plan. Or, I opt to reject cover offered by my employer and purchase my own. How does she suggest these and other options be monitored and kept current-? PLEASE, don’t suggest that we monitor it like we do uninsured auto drivers. THAT works well-NOT!!
Also, no one has mentioned COBRA option. For the majority of folks, if they are unemployed, paying the exorbitant COBRA premiums is a joke. Just paying for food/shelter is a challenge.
RE: the homeless. There, but by the grace of GOD go many of us. Your livelihood can disappear in a millisecond. Unless we’ve been there, not to judge. All homeless folks don’t drink/smoke, etc. away their funds.
I say we drill down on the ambulance chaser attornies and take a look at our legal system and the awards that being handed out. Insurance companies get the bad rap, but they have to pay what our courts say to pay. Somebody has to pay premiums for those huge judgments. Maybe if our judicial system would be addressed/corrected, health insurance premiums would go down to where MOST could afford it.
There’s no perfect answer, but Billary’s suggestion bites!
Hospitals used to be run by churches. When health care was a charity, the costs were manageable. Now the govt regulates it to death and runs hospitals, so it’s all screwed up.
Used to be that schools were all private or church-run. Now the govt runs most of them and Johnny can’t read. Why’s that? Do you detect a pattern?
UPS and FedEx do a marvelous job of delivering mail. Why does the USPS still deserve a monopoly on letters?
I guess health care is in the same emanation of penubras in the Constitution as abortion.
Oh, and Hillary Pantsuit Clinton’s plan is very similar to the one Romney foisted on Mass, and now Mass has the highest health insurance costs in the nation. The health insurance companies have made her the #1 recipient of their campaign contributions for a reason.
Ok Hilary how about you fix ( or even come up with a plan to attempt to fix) the Social Security pothole before you go dig another one.
I know you can’t talk about Social Security because the “Press” will kill you. Your husband as President and you as Senator ignored fixing Social Security for the last 16 years. HElloooo its bankrupt!
Maybe if you and Bill had fixed one social economic problem the public would be inclined to let you try out health care.
It just appears to the rest of us, you want more control over more of our money.
The greatest measure of a societies success is the extent to which it is able to take care of it’s most vulnerable citizens! It seems to me that in the USA today, we collectively take our overall affluence as a right, and exhibit little empathy for those less fortunate then us. Imagine what we could accomplish as a society if everyone (rich and poor) colletively said “what can I do for you”, instead of “what can you do for me”. It has to start somewhere.
Now, I don’t know if the answer to the question of how to provide quality health care to more or our citizens is what Sen Clinton suggested, but all I hear on these posts is a lot of complaining about why should I pay to help others. How about some realistic ideas on how we can help the uninsured!
Remember you already garnish my wages, its called taxes, this is no different than a tax. You already waste my tax money on things I dont need or want, like the war in Iraq.
So I know if we didnt spend all that money in Iraq we would have more than enough already for universal health care AND a tax cut!!
The real problem is that the pharm companies own the politicians and therefore we pay 10 times what we should to line their pockets.
I guanrantee I could get elected If I just promised to make Martin Luther King Day a mandatory day off for all Americnas to be celebrated the day after the Superbowl.
Also, if you want a war, you better go after China now, before they get any stronger, and before they call in the massive debt we owe them…..
Your point is well taken: governments are totally incompetent, dishonest and despicable at any task they undertake. No, I take that back; governments excel at three things. In fact they are the best of any entity in the world at these three: 1)Lying with every word they speak; 2) Stealing people’s property; & 3) Killing extremely large numbers of people (over 100 million in the 20th century alone killed by governments).
Of course we all know that if governments ceased to exist (sarcasm ahead), you and everyone you know would instantly start eating babies, burning down your neighbors houses, raping everyone in sight, poisoning food supplies, create instant monopolies, destroy the roads, not take care of your health, and every other harmful act.
Ok, I am going to play devil’s advocate here. Wouldn’t it be better to have EVERYONE pay a small percentage of their paycheck for affordable insurance rather than have private insurance companies increase their rates and reduce coverage
(a result from which I am suffering now).
I am a firm beleiver of “what goes around, comes around”. Who do you think is paying for uninsured patients? Why do you think medical costs keep rising? Wouldn’t it be better if we all could benefit from better health care at an affordable price? I would like to hear Clinton elaborate on her plan and I know that this is something that won’t happen overnight. Does anyone else have any better ideas? Anything is worth a try if we are all to benefit from health care coverage. There are too many people who couldn’t care less about John Doe next door, but shouldn’t we start getting away from the “me, me, me” attitude? How about “all for one and one for all”?
Nice name, first off. Other than that I have to disagree with you. I don’t think we take our affluence as a right. In fact, I think that people who don’t have anything feel entitled to have something. They feel they have the right to be affluent, and that it should be handed to them! Perfect example: subprime meltdown! I don’t have a “right” to everything I have, but I sure as hell worked to get it and feel I deserve it because of that work. I also don’t think anyone else has the right to take away from me to give to someone else who won’t help themselves. I do understand that some people on welfare need it; however, it should be a temporary fix. Unfortunately, it has become like a drug that once on you are hooked. I like McCain’s idea that anyone on welfare be required to work 40 hours a week. That is great! Make people work their way out of their troubles. I don’t have an entitlement attitude, as I feel most of the people here do not. They have simply worked too hard to have their money taken away for some slack. I would also wager the true success of a nation is seen through its people’s ability to provide for themselves. Now I am off my soapbox. Carry on.
I agree as to Clinton being a good buddy with the Health Insurance Industry. You won’t see them fighting her this time around if she gets back to the White House like they did last time.
Again, I don’t see no easy answers. Crack down on the malpractice suits and eliminate defensive medicine along with improvements in administrative costs and health care will still be very expensive. We could have 1980 or 1960 health care costs but does anyone want 1980 or 1960 health care? Remember when cancer always was a death sentence? Or no annual physicals covered by insurance to catch heart problems and cancers early on? I will pass on going back to the good old days.It gets more expensive and complicated each year because it gets it gets better each year.
We can tweak the system some but it never is going to be cheap and we need to start from that point.
I have no problem paying for health care. I pay for it now. What I want is the same health care the President and the congress get. Make the playing field level. Trust me, if Congress has to have the same as everyone else, the coverage would be good for everyone. It follows suit with Social Security. Take away their government pensions and make put them under the same system as the rest of us and the SS problem would be fixed right quick!
That’s funny, this is what I hear when I walk into any store WHERE PROFIT RULES. When I go into a govt agency I’m told where to sit, where to stand, what to give to whom, etc. Yes, let’s let the IRS run the hospitals!
Sounds good but one of the basic flaws in governmental health care can’t be ignored. Anyone that works in insurance knows that once the profit motive is removed, the incentives to remove waste and combat fraud are removed. Under that scenario, escalating medical costs will continue to increase.
I had learned once that in a capitalistic society a free market is most efficient. Government should only become involved in situations of market failure. The fact that 1 in 7 do not have health insurance needs to be addressed; however, the converse fact that 6 in 7 do hardly suggests market failure.
And, what happens to the people that work in the health insurance industry currently? Have the dems addressed the impact socialized medicine will have on the economy if these people lose their livelihoods?
Easy Hilary answer: Health insurance industry employees will become government employees and will work dilegently like those in the post office, DMV and Departments of Insurance.
Liberals have no idea of property rights or basic economics: Supply and demand. The below quote explains why this “universal” health care idea is doomed and will only raise costs. Also, hypothetically, what is she going to do when health insurance carriers either (a) have enormous losses and have to raise prices or (b) have enourmous profits (she wants to implement a windfall tax on big oil)?
I love this quote:
People belive they have a right to health care. After all, Hillary said so, didn’t she? But you cannot receive health care unless some doctor or health practitioner surrenders some of his time – his life – to you. He may be willing to do this for compensation, but that’s his choice. You have no “right” to his time or property. You have no right to his or any other person’s life or to any portion thereof.
You’re absolutely right. Everyone has the right to his own body and that which his body produces. Now the reason that government claims this “right” is simple: they have guns and various other means to kill people who don’t do what they say.
Speaking of that, has anyone heard the one about the government admitting countless numbers of times over the past two centuries that it has absolutely no obligation or duty to provide anything to anyone? Don’t believe it? Google Bowers v DeVito to find out for yourself.
Do not waste anymore time debating Hillary & the plans she has been passing off as big ideas! I agree that it would be nice if there was a fixx in the works for some of the problems we have as a nation, however Hillary is not the answer, but merely a talking head with PMS & just enough of an education to talk in the big circles & sound like she might understand what she just said! She may have some good points, but so do all of us at times. I just hate to think that she might be the front runner & hope that the American public is not convinced that she is the man for the job! OBama isn’t the one either, VOTE REPUBLICAN!
Just a thought…but, for example, there was a situation where my fiance thought he had lost his health insurance due to an administrative error at the HR office at his company….so he and i looked at a couple of options including taking the risk of going without health insurance for a year…
i called our auto/renters insurance agent and he could offer major medical ins for a monthly premium that is roughly the same amount as a cable/internet bill or a cell phone bill….he could have easily rebudgeted, gotten rid of cable/internet as that isn’t a necessity and not seen his budget be greatly affected. (luckily his HR dept corrected the error and he has his ins back)
i think it was libby who said this earlier…people need to prioritize.
i disagree with Demos…i think most people on this site are giving logical solutions…stop giving free coverage to illegals, ask people to put down the remotes/cigarettes and go for a walk, quit suing doctors for outrageous amounts of money, and quit acting like everything should be a hand out….
It’s a beautiful sentiment. Let’s have everyone give up a small portion of their paycheck so that we can all have socialized medical coverage. Of course we already are all giving up just a tiny portion of our paychecks so that we can keep throwing money into a broken education system. And let’s not forget about the extremely diminutive portion of our paycheck that goes to social security, and this and that and everything else.
Bottom line, and yes I am a hard axx… I’ve worked hard for what I’ve got, just like all of you. I am tired of giving everything I make away. At some point and time we have to understand that we do not live in an entitlement society. If you want something, you have to work for it.
It is absolutely no suprise you have this “group” think opinion, expecially coming from San Fran – liberal capital of the world. But here is a portion of a good read explaining that GROUP theory:
(The below is quoted from an article)
On the Left you hear talk of group rights; on the Right, individual rights. That about sums it up, really: Liberals feel. Liberals care. They are pack animals whose identity is tied up in group dynamics. Conservatives and Libertarians think — and, setting aside the theocracy crowd, their identity is centered on the individual.
Liberals feel that their favored groups, have enforceable rights to the property and services of productive individuals. Conservatives think that individuals have the right to protect their lives and their property from the plunder of the masses.
In college you are taught to develope a group mentality, but if you look closely at your diploma, you will see that they have your individual names on them. Not the name of your school mascot, or of your fraternity or sorority, but your name. Liberals have been taught that the real value of any group of people – be it a social group, an employee group, a management group, whatever – is based on diversity. This is a favored liberal ideal because diversity is based not on an individual’s abilities or character, but on a person’s identity and status as a member of a group. Yes — it’s that liberal group identity thing again.
Within the great diversity movement group identification – be it racial, gender based, or some other minority status – means more than the individual’s integrity, character or other qualifications.
The political and social atmosphere now is where diversity rules, and a culture where individual achievement and excellence don’t count.
I am curious exactly where the article came from. I only think it is fair you reveal your source so we can scrutinize as you so freely scrutinize SFO based on her locality.
There’s an old story that sufaces almost every election about a liberal thinking son/daughter of a very conservative thinking business man.
On spring break the daughter comes home and lights into the father about his conservative thinking. She tells him that only by being a more liberal, caring society will we ever manage to survive and improve ourselves.
To this the father smiles and asks about the son/daughters room mate at school.
The son/daughter answers that the roommate will probably not be there next quarter as their grades are less than stellar.
To this the father again smiles and suggests… Well you have a 4.0 GPA. Why don’t you offer to give your roommate some of your grades so they can stay in school.
This enraged the son/daughter. I’ve worked hard for those grades. Unlike XXX who parties all of the time, I have studied hard to earn those. There’s no way that I am going to give them up.
The father smiled again. So you’re not all that liberal afterall.
Pointless? Maybe, but most all of us here have worked hard for what we have. If someone really needs help, we would surely give it. But for people to expect that they will get a free ride… BS
Thanks for posting that. Seriously. I have already printed this to read periodically. The more and more I read of the libertarian principles, the more and more they seem to make sense.
Wow,
I was just playing the Devil’s advocate. Not trying to solve the nation’ problem.
Yes, I understand that SFO is the “liberal” capital of the world,(I was born & raised here – I wouldn’t live anywhere else) but there are some of us who are “middle of the road” and would like to see some change…it’s just not working with the way it is now – let’s get rid of bipartisan politics and all work towards one common goal. I’m quite the dreamer :)
Let’s get one thing straight- neither Obama or Clinton is talking about have a universal government plan. Anyone with health insurance through work will see no changes. Anyone without insurance will be eligible for the same type of insurance your mail carrier and other federal employees have which is to say health coverage from private for-profit companies competing against each other. Drive around Washington, DC during the enrollment period and you will see billboards trying to get federal employees to change carriers from one company to another. We are not talking about a Canadian or UK system and all this talk about socialized medicine is a lot of hot air. You can bet the health insurance companies wouldn’t be giving money to Clinton if they thought she was going to put them out of business.
Clinton and Obama do differ as to whether to make getting insurance mandatory and that is what the article is about but rest assured no one is talking about doing away with private insurance. Also, the proposed plans were first put forth in the 1970’s by a left wing pinko radical named Richard Nixon.
In his 1974 State of the Union address, Nixon called for comprehensive health insurance with the following remarks:
“Turning now to the rest of the agenda for 1974, the time is at hand this year to bring comprehensive, high quality health care within the reach of every American. I shall propose a sweeping new program that will assure comprehensive health insurance protection to millions of Americans who cannot now obtain it or afford it, with vastly improved protection against catastrophic illnesses. This will be a plan that maintains the high standards of quality in America’s health care. And it will not require additional taxes.”
On February 6, 1974, he introduced the Comprehensive Health Insurance Act. Nixon’s plan would have mandated employers to purchase health insurance for their employees, and in addition provided a federal health plan like Medicaid that any American could join by paying on a sliding scale based on income.
well, first of all, you can’t mandate we contribute to a national health care plan. similar to the social security – your going to find it bankrupt and no way out, continuing to put us in more DEBT. there will not be enough money. we already have enough of my money going to the IRS for taxes (state and federal).
1) do we need a national health care? possibly, but not to a demand that it has to be taken. like any other benefit, it should be an offer on the table without any strings attached.
2) child care – um… in many states it would be child abuse if you did not attempt to take care of any medical problems your kids have. just like you do you pets, you are responsible. now, if you look at some of these kids, where’s the child support for them? remember that this issue should be covered by both parties (mother and father). there are deadbeats on both sides of this fence.
3) true the statement someone said earlier, if the clintons having been in office, why did they not address/correct the social security issue? what makes you think she will now? our parents are in need of help – and these are the folks who have paid more into social security than anyone else.
so how much more can we take as a society of the deliquent leaders in our congress TODAY. we need a change of leadership; stop re-electing folks back into congress if they are not getting the job done!
Of course, and he also gave us OSHA and the EPA, threw Taiwan overboard in favor of the Communist butchers in Peking, ended fixed echange rates between the dollar and gold and implemented wage and price controls, let the communists off the hook in Vietnam, signed the ABM Treaty, implemented the Philadelphia Plan that required strict quotas for minorities on govt projects, increased capital gains taxes, and probably ten other things that have escaped me.
So having Nixon on her side does not enhance her reputation, it just figures.
Pantsuit has not announced any differences between the plan that she tried to foist on us while her trailer trash husband was president and this plan. Her former plan would make it a felony to pay or receive cash for medical care, would tell med students where they had to go to school and what specialization they would have to enter, and other wonderful limitations of our freedom and strictures upon the marketplace.
She worked for a communist law firm in San Francisco defending the Black Panthers when she got out of college. She has never expressed regret for that poor judgment and continues to advocate socialistic solutions to problems caused in the first place by govt interference in the market.
SOFLady, I think you bring out some good points. I think we need to hear more re the plan before we start to put it down. Sounds like most of you would rather cover the medical cost for the uninsured, which is what happens. I am tired of paying high prices for health insurance so I can help the uninsured.
Who would be most in favor of getting this passed? Seems to me she’s pandering to the non-workers or the workers with minimal wages. If I were in that segment, I guess I would vote for her (NOT EVER).
As far as the VA, it’s not all that. My Dad fought in WWII and came back with a Purple Heart. It was an assemblyline hospital. He had several health problems, and never saw the same doctor twice. You went to clinics where you had to wait for hours on end to be seen. It may have changed, but it sure sucked then for him and my Mother.
I heard an estimate on illegal aliens in the US, that there were 30 Million. If we kicked their sorry bums out of the country, wouldn’t that reduce the uninsured to something more managable? Maybe that much smaller number could be analyzed and solutions better than Heil Clinton’s can be worked out.
I think those of us who are putting it down without knowing the details are just being realistic….these over promising, all encompasing campaign statements are as tired as jokes about “no new taxes.” it’s played out…i wish these presidential candidates would live by the 80/20 rule…if they can get 80% of the country to be able to obtain affordable healthcare…then we’re on the right track.
and i still stand by my statement that if we stop giving free insurance and medical treatment to illegal aliens….a good chunk of the problem would be solved.
I LIKE MY STEAK RED AND JUCY, NOT PINK OR OVER COOKED. WE HAVE A CHOICE WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT WE EAT. I DON’T LIKE ANYTHING CRAMED DOWN MY THROAT. MABY IT’S BECAUSE I WORK HARD, HAVE A BRAIN, AND CAN MAKE MY OWN CHOICE TO EAT THE WAY I CHOOSE. I DON’T NEED A LIBERAL BILLERY TO TELL ME I HAVE TO EAT IT PINK AND SLICE IT UP FOR EVERYONE ELSE IN LINE TO PARTAKE EVENLY. I KNOW PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO LIKE THEIR STEAK WELL DONE AND OTHERS WHO THINK EATING MEAT IS JUST WRONG. WHO EVER SAID HEALTH CARE IS AN ENTITLEMENT SHOULD READ THE CONSTITUDION AGAIN, BECAUSE, I DON’T REMEMBER IS SAYING ANY ONE SPECIAL INTEREST / INDUSTRY SHOULD BE GURANTEED A ENLTITEMENT / PROFIT.
I AM GOING TO LUNCH NOW TO DIGEST THIS ISSUE, AND I THINK YOU KNOW HOW I’LL PLACE MY ORDER NOW AND IN NOVEMBER.
Good point on the VA. It is not a great example of what medical care should be.
Her plan may appeal, from a voting perspective, to the low wage earners who don’t have medical care however many of these people, if faced with giving up part of their income for health care, will not choose to do so. It happens everyday now. There are people who cannot afford to make the employee contributions to a company provided health care plan and they choose to go uncovered. There is a segment of the people that will take risks, go without medical care, and have little regard for their long term health. Our government cannot change the way these people live their lives. We try and try to implement more laws & regulation to make people act responsibly and they don’t do it.
YOU CAN CHOOSE TO EAT IT RED AND JUCY, PINKO, OR NOT AT ALL. DO YOU REALLY THINK LIBERAL BILLERY HAS A CHANCE IN NOVEMBER? SERVE IT UP ON A PLATE AND SEE HOW AMERICA SWALLOWS IT. YOU HAVE A BRAIN & CAN CHOOSE TO HAVE YOUR’S WELL DONE, IF YOU WANT. I DON’T LIKE IT THAT WAY, BUT THIS IS STILL AMERICA AND WE HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO CHOOSE WEATHER TO EAT OR NOT TO EAT. BILLERY WILL MAKE YOU EAT IT “HER WAY” IF ELECTED AND BIG INSURANCE PLANS OUR MENU. I PROMISE YOU, NO MATTER HOW YOU LIKE YOUR STEAK; IT’S NOT ON THE MENU.
Concerned, I totally agree with you..I also believe that if the gov. keeps trying to manage our health care that it is going to wind up the same as our legal system. Those with money get off scott free of criminal charges. I wonder how that will parallel to health costs?
in the past several elections, have we not heard the words “I promise” or “I will”. has any candidate done the job they were supposed to do when they were elected into office. Reagan, is one president, who achieved greatness because he did achieve what we asked for. Others would start and then give up on the ship. the problem i have that the steerage of the ship is not from the oval office but from the capital building. the change is needed in that building more than the change of the president. remember, that all bills have to be passed by the congress before the president signs it into law. so, remember, the blame is on congress for not taking action. for example how long did it take them to raise the minimum wage? if hillary can get away from playing dirty tactics, maybe folks might listen. we do need a change its a matter of where to start and sometimes at the top is not an answer.
Read Hillary’s words: “I “might” be willing”. She is just saying enough to show that she is open minded. Hillary is going to tuck to the small business guy and the working people of this country. You start garnishing the wages of those individuals who do not have insurance, they will get cash paying jobs. Not all of them of course, but they will circumvent the system and those of us honest, hard working individuals end up paying for them as well.
Socialism may be fine in Russia and China not here in the United States of America!Government does not need to take care of everyone. We have done fine for 230+ years.
She “might”? Maybe she wwill, maybe she won’t? Is that proof that she has an open mind or is a fascist lacking only the power to implement her statist agenda? No one born and raised in this country should ever have such a thought cross her mind, let alone pass her lips.
Thank God that she is apparently going down the tubes, and that the Dems’ hopes are being pinned on another socialist with even less chance of getting elected than she had. Thank God that maybe now the Arkansas Trailer Trash Circus just might be ready to leave the stage.
If she doesn’t get the nomination she and Billy Jeff will divorce, and neither of them will remarry: both for the same reason.
OK – you’re right on! Wudchuck – Our parents need help? They’ve paid more into Social Security than anyone else? I’ll guarantee that is not true. If they’ve retired anytime in the last 10 years, it certainly is NOT true. They’re repaided far more than they’ve put into the system in as little as 30 months!
Health Insurance costs what it does primarily because of MEDICARE and MEDICAID. The government controls (and underpays) for services to those populations and guess where the providers shift the cost? This has been worsened by the growing 65+ age group and the expansion of medicaid. Now add all of the illegals and uninsured. Those WITH insurance truly support the system. If we go to a national health insurance plan, controlled by the government, the quality and accessability of care will plummit, over time. The best and the brightest will simply NOT GO INTO MEDICINE (to work for the government!). They’ll become attorneys instead – GRAB YOUR WALLETS!
AND, don’t expect it (National Health Insurance) to be any cheaper! Look at what’s happening in Massachusetts! The cost is certainly NOT going down!
Exactly. Plus, it is illegal for doctors to charge people less than they charge Medicare.
What would happen to the price of TV’s if the govt gave everyone $2,000 to go out and buy the TV of their choice? You wouldn’t be able to find one under $2,000, that’s what.
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t my employer offer “Major Medical” coverage a few decades back and I was responsible for the cost of routine annual physicals and minor ailments? As a percent of my wages the cost of healthcare was minimal. Again, my memory be have failed me but I thought that a major portion of annual health care cost was the annual physical. Perhaps we should go back to “Major Medical” coverage and pay for the little stuff ourselves.
Al you are correct. You can go back to Hillary’s college days to see how far left she is. Her socialist/communist thinking does not fit in with America’s values. However, her friends on the left are repeating the mantra so often that some Americans believe in this entitlement unfortunately true American History is not taught in our schools any longer and the willing accomplises in the media also believe that Liberal/Progressive or whatever else they want to call themselves, crap.
Hussein Obama has no health plan. He is relying on his oratory skills, which he says nothing during his campaign speeches. All he says he is the candidate of change. The problem also means we need a change in the House and Senate, as they are gumming up the process. What’s scary is the democraticly controlled Congress does not want to work with a Republican, they would rather increase taxes, adopt a socialize medicine plan to make Americans more reliant upon government, thereby growing government and increase spending. So the more money that Rangel, Dingel and Murtha can get out of ALL Americans the better.
Bush naively has tried since day 1 to work with the democrats and they continue to burn him. So where is the change needed. With Pelosi and Reid leadership this country is headed down the wrong road.
I’m wondering when, prior to them achieving a majority in Congress, Bush tried to work with Democrats. And even since then he’s just threatened to veto anything he doesn’t like, or vetoed it in a couple of cases, because the Dems don’t have a super-majority.
All politicians do is increase spending. And quite frankly, since they all increase spending I’d rather have people who fund it in charge than those who try to hide it. Bush erased a record budget surplus that could have kept Social Security solvent and worked on the national debt and turned it into a debt so huge that we can barely pay the interest, let alone pay it off. Give me a “tax and spend” any day over a “borrow and spend”. I say that only because I don’t expect to ever see a “live within our means”.
Hey Dick, don’t be one now. By no means am I was giving Bush a pass on the spending issue. I think I’m a pretty good republican. Bush has certainly been a disappointment in his spending like a drunken sailor and his appeasement of the democrats thinking they will work with him (ala Ted Kennedy and Education Bill in 2002) Kennedy and Crats stabbed Bush right in the back after he passed the Education Bill. No Bush has been no fiscal conservative and that is quite disappointing. However, at this time I will take any Republican over a Clinton or Hussein. Especially with the two of them proposing more government takeover of the Free Enterprise System and our lives. And I will take a war wage in a crap hole like Iraq than in the streets of America (like NY, Boston or LA). This economy would be in the tank if we did not go on the offensive and fight terrorism over there. So stop your whining and take your head out of your a**. This country needs a real fiscal conservative in the White House and some misers in Congressional Chairs – we don’t need the Rangel types who are salivating to raise taxes and give us some kind of mantra about just taxing the “rich”. They are playing class warfare, you know that and I know that. But who ends up paying in the end? The upper middle and middle classes, since they make up the majority of the taxpayers. Heck, even good ole Charlie Rangel wants to re-define who’s a millionaire – if you make over $200K a year you’re now a millionaire. Why don’t they drop it to $161k a year, oh know than Congressman will be taxed more.
So nice try Dickie Baby, I’ll take a conservative Republican who really wants to cut spending and believes in smaller government than your liberal buddies who want more control over our lives and higher taxes so we can be indentured to government! But no one has the gonads to stand up and tell it like it is, the money flowing into Washington DC and local and state governments has perverted the system and those in control of the almighty dollar. Thanks for caring!
Crap economy? Unemployment rate and inflation lower than under Bubba.
Deficit? There’s a war on, remember?
Expensive, useless war? Are you saying he should have ordered a cheaper one? What’s your idea of a useful war, bombing Bosnia?
Are you serious, you think that Bush hasn’t worked with the Democommies? The tax cuts passed congress, meaning it was a bipartisan effort. He let Teddy Chappaquidick Kennedy write his education bill No Child Left Behind. He became a democommie and supported amnesty for illegals aliens. He’s working with the democommies to hand out money to stimulate the economy.
Even more concerning is the types of Supreme Court Justices a liberal/Dem will put in. I’d wager that the Fairness Doctrine would become reactivated. This should concern you whether you’re a flipping liberal, a conservative, and anywhere in between. A Democrat President will be sure you never know what the thieves in Washington are doing, unless the controlling powers let you, meaning you’ll only know what the Republicans are doing. God help us all.
Has a republican president really run a transparent washington either? Generally, all politicians hide what they are doing. Even more so under this admin.
“Bush erased a record budget surplus that could have kept Social Security solvent and worked on the national debt and turned it into a debt so huge that we can barely pay the interest, let alone pay it off.”
Hmmm… maybe you’ll recall that the 9/11 attacks and subsequent stock market slide erased trillions of dollars in wealth, and greased the skids for the recession that began in Jan. 2000 – when Bubba was president. Maybe this had something to do with reduced tax receipts, ya think?
And when was SS ever solvent? There’s no money in anyone’s account because the dems under LBJ began pumping its receipts into the general fund (AND taxing SS benefits). It is at best a ponzie scheme.
WOW! I can’t believe the resistance this article brings to attention.
We are forced to buy auto insurance but when it comes to health ins looks like people don’t like that idea.
My feeling is that government shouldn’t be allowed to force anyone to buy any kind of insurance!
Clinton is like a fish of water right now.She has her millions that both she and her husband stole from the american people and she stands to loose and I hope she does.
Hillary is just as much if not more a hypocrit as her husband.
That reminds me who is running for president Hillary or Bill?
My question is what happens to those of us with private health care? If the government takes over health care and mandates it for everyone, does that mean those of us who are currently covered would have to switch to government health care?
(I apologize if that’s a dumb question…but one of my biggest fears is if the government takes over health care, the conservatives will leap at the chance to diminish the services directed at women…)
Off the top of my head I can’t think of a single administration (democratic or republican) that has kept its hands of Social Security. Since, up until recently, that budget usually ran into surplus it was ripe for raiding.
And that whole “if we don’t fight them there we’ll fight them here” thing is a crock. Fighting a preemptive war in Iraq does nothing to stop people from commiting heinous acts on American soil. If somebody truly wanted to hurt us here they still could. What we’ve done in Iraq is breed more terrorists – al Quaida was not in Iraq before we invaded.
And you can’t blame budgeting that increases spending while decreasing income on a stock market slide. It is impossible to balance a budget while spending more and taking in less. That’s why just about every other war in history has come with a tax hike – to pay for the thing.
One should also not connect the recession from the dot.com bubble bursting and the recession from post-9/11 fears. They are not connected. Clinton did not cause the recession after 9/11, people’s fears caused that recession.
If you recall the only time in the past few decades the budget was balanced was under a democrat – Clinton. It wasn’t balanced under Reagan, or Bush I, just under Clinton. I don’t say I agree with all of Clinton’s fiscal policies, but I do agree with a balanced budget. It allows us to see what we are spending our money on, and if we don’t like how much is being spent we know exactly where to cut. You can’t do that when you always run in the red. You don’t have the same options.
As for “No Child Left Behind” that was a campaign promise. If we remember our recent history Bush ran partially as the “Education President”.
The recent economic stimulus is also being touted by Bush. Both sides have taken it up, but Bush isn’t conceding anything on this one; he wants to give people money.
And the tax cuts were passed under a Congress controlled by Republicans – remember. There didn’t have to be any Democrats voting for it as the Republicans had a larger majority then than the Democrats have now.
If you recall the last president to give amnesty to illegals was Reagan – a Republican. Conservatives everywhere are looking at how they’ll get cheap labor if we truly crack down on illegals.
Sorry Al, there’s not much difference between Democrats and Republicans. But it takes people who are not party-fanatics to see it.
Nebraskan, I haven’t heard anyone talking about a single-payer system in a while. The plans I’ve heard about lately have all been about creating a government run backdrop; meaning if you’re currently insured you wouldn’t be affected (supposedly) but if you aren’t insured you’d have coverage through the government.
My take is we need to go one way or the other. We either need to completely socialize medicine or we need to make it a capitalistic market. From what I know, as little as that may be, the biggest problem with healthcare right now is that it is a partially socialized system. We have not allowed the market to determine the cost of healthcare in decades. Socialized medicine works as has been proven in many countries; and it doesn’t cost more than privatized medicine. I think we could drive costs even lower, and stimulate some advancements, by letting the market do its job.
I don’t think any plan put forth in recent memory (the last 10 years or so) has a chance of doing anything more than messing up the system. The plans I have heard simply introduce more government meddling in ways almost guaranteed to mess up the system. How many problems are caused by the government interfering in certain areas of healthcare? It’s one thing to regulate the industry for safety and health, and another to regulate pricing – however indirectly.
So, yes and no. I support government meddling if they want to go to a completely socialized system. Otherwise they need to get out.
You can do more research too. There’s a lot of information out there debunking your theory.
I read recently that the Brits skip treating people that are obese (who determines this), that drink too much, are too old (who determines), etc., because they cannot treat them. Not enough resources. They cannot get enough doctors. Dental care is almost non-existent (and this is very important in good health). I will try to locate this recent, enlightening article.
All socialized medicine does is gives good care to the very wealthy. This is only if doctors are motivated, which they won’t be for lack of income/reward for their hard work in medical school.
Ah, but ask almost any Canadian or Frenchman and they wouldn’t trade their system for ours. Socialized medicine has been proven to work. I don’t prefer it over a completely capitalistic system, but I’d take it over what we have now if a compeletely capitalistic system were not an option.
I doubt socialized medicine in France and Canada and France is worth a wooden nickle. I will do more research because I believe you are wrong.
That being said, why do you personally want it changed? Do you have health insurance? If not, why? Aren’t you in the insurance industry? If so, why do you not place this as important, and YOUR RESPONSIBILITY?
Do you know anyone who has gone to the emergency room with an emergency and not been treated?
I’ve got so much more to write, but I’m heading home. It’s going on 6:00 pm here. I will put more information on line tomorrow, if I have the time. I have no doubt you are wrong. You’ve not given any supporting information to your theory that France and Canada are living in happy socialized medicine land.
ad, I do have insurance thank you for caring. I have insurance of all types – home, auto, health, dental (I cancelled my life insurance for now, but will probably have it in the future). And if you paid attention to my posts you would understand that I prefer capitalism. As is pointed out by most people on this board (to my understanding), and by my own reckoning, the majority of the problems with our system are caused by too much government interference.
The government can run things, though not as efficiently as private industry in most (if not all) cases. The big problems seem to occur when the government tries to half-arse the thing. I say let private industry have a true go at this and see what happens. We’ll be somewhat messed up for a couple years while people go for some profit-grabbing and then the market will settle down. It will be a little painful, but better in the long run.
I hate to say it, but your arguments against socialized medicine are falling on deaf ears, because I don’t want socialized medicine. I truly don’t. I just think it’s the lesser of two evils if I can’t have my preference. You can find more information to support your position if you want, but that won’t change my desire to have a purely capitalistic healthcare system.
In my last post I did not mean to make it sound like ad is for socialized medicine, as he or she obviously is not. I meant only to make clear that I don’t need to be convinced that capitalism is better.
ad, you can save yourself some time and stop researching now.
“Fighting a preemptive war in Iraq does nothing to stop people from commiting heinous acts on American soil.”
It has so far.
“If somebody truly wanted to hurt us here they still could. What we’ve done in Iraq is breed more terrorists – al Quaida was not in Iraq before we invaded.”
Really?! So they were in 20-30 countries but not in Iraq? They were here, in Spain, Saudi Arabia, Chechnya, but not in the country of a state sponsor of terrorism.
How did you find out that they were not in Iraq? Did you go there and conduct surveys?
If you want more govt revenue, you cut taxes to generate economic activity. If you want to lower tax revenues you raise taxes to stifle economic activity. So since Repubs tout tax cuts and democommies tout tax hikes, who has a better chance of ending deficits?
Al Bro, you need an education. You think the war in Iraq has prevented terrorists from coming to the US??
YOU STUPID PEICE OF TRASH. Right after 911 – That was the perfect time to strike. They did nothing, and we were NOT any where near attacking Iraq yet. So how do you explain that?
And if there are terrorists in Iraq, why would they sit back and fight the strongest army the world has ever known?
By definition they wouldnt be terrorists any more now would they!
If they have all these millions of dollars, they would just fly in to Mexico and walk across the border with the Mexicans. It would be increcibly easy! Then they would just become suicide bombers.
And didnt Bush try to scare us with sleeper cells?!!!
Wow, they are DEEP Sleepers arent they??
You people are SOO DAM STUPID, you believe whatever crap the governement will feed you.
You are all stupid useless tax paying slaves.
You are all brainwashed by the government, while people like bush make millions off the war. You are all pawns, and the ellitists all laugh at you for being fooled so easily.
The US govt and every other govt has a history of lieing to the people. But you folks dont read books, so what do you know?
Opperation paperclip and op Northwoods, and a million other ways the govt has lied to its people to control them countless times over the past 50 to 100 years.
Wow Dick is taking it personal. Typical liberal who only knows how to chat by assaulting when you disagree. Dick that’s your opinion, many of us believe otherwise. Many of us believe that Clinton 1 had 7 chances to strike at Islamofacism and did nothing. Many of us think that terrorist were embolden by Clinton 1 inaction. Bush had the balls to take the fight to them. This does not make us any more ignorant than you. That’s America man, the freedom to think. America was founded by men who did not back down and believed in freedom. Many of us believe you are wrong Dick and your thought process is skewed, especially given Clinton 1 had the same intellegence the Bush Administration had, heck even Hillary voted for the war, but Bush right or wrong took action. America should never give in to Islamofacism!
Now Hillary wants to be President and she brings her socialistic mentality to the campaign. Well America does not need to take the further left road, including establishing a National Health Plan, administered by the government. Government cannot keep social security solvent. So Dick don’t be an ***, express your views no matter how wrong you are and let the readers decide.
God Bless America!!!
Once again, stupid assumption to assume I support Clinton and the Democrats. But it was the Republicans that sold weapons to Sadaam and befriended Bin Lady right?
Oh thats right, you dont read the news.
Once again, its pure simple logic.
A terrorist is a coward who usually blows himself up to kill defenseless noncombatants in order to scare a population.
So if you were a terrorist, would you:
A. Fight the strongest richest most technologically advanced army the world has ever known, knowing you could not win?
OR
B. Talk to your terrorist leader, and say hmm, why dont we just spend some of our millions on a trip to Mexico. Talk to some migrant workers and sneak over the border to the USA? We even have the same skin color. Then when we get over there, we shock the US by blowing our selves up in a Walmart! Do this 100 times and weaken the resolve of the American people. Not to mention the economy.
Ok folks, I know you are very slow, but give it a shot. But remember, if there are tens of thousands of terrorists, they cant all be stupid, right? It would only take 1 to do this.
SO dont tell me the terrorists are too stupid to figure this out.
So why resort to name calling Dick? You made a somewhat rational viewpoint. I believe many of us really do understand the threat of Islamofacism in the United States and how it relates to illegal immigration. But remember we cannot profile, was it Ted Kennedy who said this was dispicable, ACLU claims it’s racism. So the brown skin analogy is tough to overcome in an age of poltical correctness. Also I understand how Bush has had a love feast with Saudi’s, how Bill and Hillary Clinton were paid somewhere to the tune of $25m in the past year by the Saudi’s. Why else would Hillary not want to release her tax return, she just loaned her campaign $5million, if the money is thought to come from the Saudi payment she could be in a heap of trouble (Yet another campaign finance law breaking). But that’s the typical Clinton operation. How the Saudi’s have deposited up to $500 million into the coifers of CAIR for legal defense use here in the United STates and Canada. Notice how CAIR claims racism in staged muslim events, then files suit. Muslim is not a race it’s a religion. While the war is not popular, it still makes better sense to fight the Iranian, Syrian and Al Queda terrorists in Iraq. This economy was very fragile after 9/11, it could not take another hit to the airline and transportation industry. Florida tourism fell dramatically. So killing terrorists in Iraq is better than trying to wage a war in the streets of LA, Boston or NY. Our thought process does not make us stupid, it’s our opinion, the freedom to express, so we will agree to disagree.
Hiillary is dangerous, she is dishonest and disingenuous. Her plan to takeover America’s healthcare is wrong in my opinion, radical and socialistic. Demonizing the health care industry is wrong, but it gets politicians votes. Getting them to the table to come up with a nationwide health plan and improve the delivery system in an affordable fashion should be a goal.
Actually, Lastbat, when the tax cuts were passed in early 2001, the Senate was evenly split 50-50. The Republicans were the majority party in the Senate ONLY because of the VP’s tie-breaking vote. This meant that the tax cut program had to be at least acceptable to the Democrats or the Senate wouldn’t bring it to a vote, since it takes three-fifths of the Senate to invoke cloture.
I know I am late to the arguement but regarding the Canadian healthcare system you couldn’t be more wrong. I have listened to several CBC broadcasts regarding how terible their system is. Waiting months for needed surgeries is a big problem. Those who can afford it are coming to the US for treatment.
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t it illegal for a provider to turn away people who need treatment, regardless of their ability to pay? That’s why the lines in emergency room are so long, people there for routine treatment.
YOU CAN CHOOSE TO EAT IT RED AND JUCY, PINKO, OR NOT AT ALL. DO YOU REALLY THINK LIBERAL BILLARY HAS A CHANCE IN NOVEMBER? SERVE IT UP ON A PLATE AND SEE HOW AMERICA SWALLOWS IT. SOME AMERICANS HAVE BRAINS & CAN CHOOSE TO HAVE WELL DONE, IF THEY WANT. I DON’T LIKE IT THAT WAY, BUT THIS IS STILL AMERICA AND WE HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO CHOOSE WEATHER TO EAT OR NOT TO EAT. BILLARY WILL MAKE YOU EAT IT “HER WAY” IF ELECTED AND BIG INSURANCE PLANS OUR MENU. I PROMISE YOU, NO MATTER HOW YOU LIKE YOUR STEAK; IT’S NOT ON THE MENU. I LIKE MY STEAK RED AND JUCY, NOT PINK OR OVER COOKED. WE HAVE A CHOICE WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT WE EAT. I DON’T LIKE ANYTHING CRAMED DOWN MY THROAT. MABY IT’S BECAUSE I WORK HARD, HAVE A BRAIN, AND CAN MAKE MY OWN CHOICE TO EAT THE WAY I CHOOSE. I DON’T NEED A LIBERAL BILLARY TO TELL ME I HAVE TO EAT IT PINK AND SLICE IT UP FOR EVERYONE ELSE IN LINE TO PARTAKE EVENLY. I KNOW PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO LIKE THEIR STEAK WELL DONE AND OTHERS WHO THINK EATING MEAT IS JUST WRONG. WHO EVER SAID HEALTH CARE IS AN ENTITLEMENT SHOULD READ THE CONSTITUDION AGAIN, BECAUSE, I DON’T REMEMBER IS SAYING ANY ONE SPECIAL INTEREST / INDUSTRY SHOULD BE GURANTEED A ENTITEMENT / PROFIT.
I AM GOING TO LUNCH NOW TO DIGEST THIS ISSUE, AND I THINK YOU KNOW HOW I’LL PLACE MY ORDER NOW AND IN NOVEMBER.
Hussein? So what if that is his middle name? I didn’t realize that your name discounted you from being elected. Oh right, this is America. Attack him on his policies and stances, not his middle name. BTW I am not a registered Democrat or Republican. I am simply making an observation that those who focus on Obama’s name are ignorant (note I didn’t say stupid, there is a distinction there). I guess you believe he is a muslim, too. If so I have a email I can send you where you can make 1 million dollars by simply sending me your account info and ssn.
Al, it was CIA reports heard on Fox News that told me Al-Quaida was not in Iraq prior to us invading. Hussein was not a religious person, he had no truck with bin Laden so kept his group out of his country (easy to do when you’re a brutal dictator with few scruples).
And there is no proof that fighting in Iraq has kept American soil safe. I may be missing a couple things, but I believe I have the big ones: 1940 – Pearl Harbor (not terrorism, but an attack on US soil); 1993 – WTC; 2001 – WTC. Feel free to add in overseas attacks, but be fair and count them all because not all attacks on US interests happened during the Clinton era.
Both Bush and Clinton took money from Saudis. The US has been kissing the Kingdom’s rear for decades.
Clinton had a few opportunities to take out bin Laden and should have.
What radicals on both sides need to recognize is that we have not had a great president for decades. Neither Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Johnson, Nixon . . . our last great that most people can agree on was FDR (too much controversy over JFK). Bush is not the savior the far right lauds him to be. Bush is simply connected. Hillary would not be a great savior either. Nor would Obama. Nor would McCain. Nor would anybody else running currently. None of them has the guts and the nation doesn’t seem to want to hear the truth.
Vilifying Clinton only makes you sound narrow-minded. Recognize that Bush has made mistakes too, and you will garner greater respect.
“United Nations imposed a number of requirements on Iraq, among them disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction, stocks used to make such weapons, and laboratories necessary to do the work. Saddam Hussein agreed, and an inspection system was set up to ensure compliance. And though he repeatedly lied, delayed, and obstructed the inspections work, the inspectors found and destroyed far more weapons of mass destruction capability than were destroyed in the Gulf War, including thousands of chemical weapons, large volumes of chemical and biological stocks, a number of missiles and warheads, a major lab equipped to produce anthrax and other bio-weapons, as well as substantial nuclear facilities.
“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.” -Hillary Clinton http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html
And, of course, Republicans NEVER say things do make a good sound-bite or to get people off their backs. Never. Doesn’t happen.
Get real. They are all politicians. Give me an outsider. He acted crazy toward the end but I love Perot. He wasn’t a politician and wasn’t afraid to say what he meant. Give me another crazy sum-gun like that and then I’ll start listening. Until then they all sound too similar to me. There is no difference between Democrats and Republicans. Not any difference that makes a difference.
Obama isn’t even waiting to be elected before he shows his real colors.
AIM Says Media Cover-Up Obama’s Socialist-Oriented Global Tax Bill
Press Release | February 13, 2008
WASHINGTON, February 13, 2008 — Accuracy in Media editor Cliff Kincaid disclosed today that a hugely expensive bill called the “Global Poverty Act,” sponsored by Democratic Senator Barack Obama, was quickly passed by the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Wednesday and could result in the imposition of a global tax on the United States. Kincaid said that the major media’s cover-up of the bill, which makes levels of U.S. foreign aid spending subservient to the dictates of the United Nations, demonstrates the media’s desire to see Senator Obama elected to the presidency.
In a column posted on the AIM web site, Kincaid noted that Senator Joe Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, was trying to rush Obama’s “Global Poverty Act” (S. 2433) through his committee without hearings. The legislation would commit the U.S. to spending 0.7 percent of gross national product on foreign aid, which amounts to a phenomenal 13-year total of $845 billion over and above what the U.S. already spends. It was scheduled for a Thursday vote but was moved up a day, to Wednesday, and rushed through by voice vote. Kincaid learned, however, that conservative Senators have now put a “hold” on the legislation, in order to prevent it from being rushed to the floor for a full Senate vote.
Don’t sweat the BS!!!
Clinton is not going to be in a position to initiate a program such as this anyway so spend your time on something productive & stop pipe dreaming or whatever it is!
Hillary / Edwards / Barack
The wench is gonna get stopped
Obama’s the one that will be in the run
but Thank God a Republicans’ on top!
I hope you are right, Me. Osama and Hillary are successfully dumbing down Americans ingraining that government will take care of us. We don’t need those two socialists in power (we already have Pelosi and Reid) and certainly not government to take over the administering of healthcare.
I do have a serious question here. I am not a registered democrat, either. Why do people feel the need to call Obama Osama, or to draw an unusual amount of attention to his middle name that is Hussein? If you go to factcheck.org (non-partisan site) you can see where the whole muslim thing has been debunked. I don’t care if people don’t like his policies, but to use these types of racist undertones just make me shut out your opinion (one that could be valid, but will now be ignored because of your idiotic statement). Tar, if you simply misspelled, then I don’t direct this at you. I have seen this ignorant behavior more than a few times on IJ.
Dustin, it is not ignorance not did I mistakenly mispell Osama’s name. I, personally, am very concerned about the Islamofacism movement within the United States. Concerned that the democratic party is the majority supported by radical islam organizations like CAIR, MSA and ISNA. Whether you agree or disagree, Obama was raised by under the wahabbi religion of islam, the most radical of all islam. Yes his mother did raise him later on,know all that. The Unitarian Church which he is a member, back in October awarded and hailed Louis Farrakhan for his leadership and character or something of that nature, Obama did not denounce this. However he lauded his pastor and made it a point to say the pastor of his church is a confidant. I spelled Obama as Osama to get reaction. Americans do need to be aware that there is a stealth movement within the United States by islam to incorporate their Sharia law into our society. CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) board members like Nihad Awad have made it clear more than once, he wants Sharia Law to govern the U.S. The democratic party in this country has opened up the U.S. House to allow these people to address Congress. The Sergant at Arms of the Capitol had to deny access to one speaker (in October 2007) because he was on the terror watch list and our illustrious Speaker was unaware.
The Saudi’s have given $500 million to CAIR to use for legal defense in the U.S. and Canada for Civil Rights violations.
So I do not trust Hussein Obama, nor do I trust Hillary as she and Bill have received over $20 million from the Saudi’s. We have these politicians (including Bush) selling out the United States of America and doing it such a way that our Founding Fathers are rolling over in their graves.
So it was not out of ignorance I spelled Osama. It’s out of ignorance the American people are asleep and muslim/islamists are stealthly moving into our society and demanding we tolerate their customs and laws and using our Constitution to advance their cause. Look at the hole Great Britian has dug themselves not fighting the muslim movement.
Does anyone know what Obama stands for? Just curious, because he has become a media darling without anyone knowing what his plans are as President (Heaven forbid).
An excerpt of an article I read yesterday should be of interest to anyone who has concerns if the politician of their choice has more interest outside the US than inside:
“A torrent of secret money is flooding into the leading presidential campaigns, with more than $118 million, or one-quarter of the total raised in this cycle, banked without disclosure of who gave the funds or where the donations originated.
The money is coming from hundreds of thousands of donations of $200 or less, which have been widely praised for democratizing the system for funding White House bids. However, the surge in low-dollar gifts has come at the cost of transparency, since federal law only requires campaigns to itemize donations when a donor gives more than $200.
According to an analysis being released today by a Washington think tank, the Campaign Finance Institute, Senator Obama of Illinois led the pack with such small and secret donations, pulling in about $31 million during 2007. Rep. Ron Paul ran second in small gifts, raking in more than $17 million. At the end of the year, Senator Clinton and John Edwards, who has since dropped out, were essentially tied for third in unitemized, small contributions, with each candidate raising about $11 million.”
Dustin, I don’t know who is using TAR to post the tinfoil hat or are you with me or against me. I did post the Obama and CAIR reference. Just wanted to clear that up.
It is pretty easy to google it or even check out his website. It is pretty much a democratic platform. I am curious where the interest outside the US comes from. I don’t see anything in there other than the donations are less than $200 and don’t have to be itemized. Are you suggesting something here? I don’t see where your inference is supported.
You’re right! In an attempt not to send too big a post, I excluded my point.
“According to an analysis being released today by a Washington think tank, the Campaign Finance Institute, Senator Obama of Illinois led the pack with such small and secret donations, pulling in about $31 million during 2007. Rep. Ron Paul ran second in small gifts, raking in more than $17 million. At the end of the year, Senator Clinton and John Edwards, who has since dropped out, were essentially tied for third in unitemized, small contributions, with each candidate raising about $11 million.
Advocates of tighter campaign finance controls said the notion behind excusing donations of under $200 from the reporting requirements was that the sums were insignificant from an ethical perspective. “The idea is, it is too small an amount to worry about in terms of you’re not going to buy significant influence or access for $200,” a spokeswoman for Common Cause, Mary Boyle, said.
However, one area of concern with the flood of donations, particularly those made online, is that foreigners could be weighing in illegally in an American election. Mr. Obama’s Web site allows donors to choose an address in one of 227 possible countries or territories, including Iran, Iraq, Zimbabwe, and Yemen.
Mr. Paul’s site is even more embracing, permitting addresses in Syria and the “Occupied Palestinian Territories.” Michael Huckabee’s Web site seems to require an American address to make a gift. Donors to Senator McCain need to put in a ZIP code of some sort, but not a state.”
Dicky, not necessarily. Whether you like Hussein Obama or not, he has charisma and is a very good orator, while pretty much saying nothing.
We do now know that the Clinton campaign is in serious trouble and disarray. Obama is the alternative to another Clinton and really Black Americans feel they have an alternative to Hillary and the voting turn out amongst Black Americans for Obama is very high. CAIR is staying below the radar and is trying to build a grassroots movement. That certainly can be very effective.
So we shouldn’t vote for them because someone will try and assassinate them? I would assume terrorists wouldn’t care if the president is rep or dem. Just a thought…
I would hope America is not ignorant enough to get that upset over either of them being president because one is a woman and everyone thinks the other is Islamic and wants to save Africa. Although, that one email about Obama was spread by enough people, so there are plenty of ignorant people out there to think that way. I like Obama for some reason, but I do find myself being more fiscally conservative, thus Rep leaning. I have yet to decide though. And the save Africa thing comes from his church, which consequently identifies itself as black people in history, not black objects. The congregation, while mostly black, is not exclusively black as some would have people to think. There was a bow-tie wearing white theologian who has been there numerous times and was welcoming with open arms.
Me,to be honest it sounds like you are the type who would like to pull the trigger.
Ive got news for you though – Times have changed. And that goes for security too. It aint as easy to pull it off as it used to be. Even JFK had to be killed by the CIA. Some Hick like you could never get the job done.
No problem if there is a white guy at Obamas church – there are black, hispanic, oriental & pakistani folks at lots of churches, that’s not the point…
He can’t even put his hand on his heart to say the pledge to the flag… but he is charismatic & smooth at saying nothing & so far that’s all I have noticed… Do you know of anything he really wants to stand up for in AMERICA? Me neither…
I just don’t see him lasting, not that I am a prophet or anything close, just something about the man that I believe someone will try to take him out & will either succeed or not…
Please do yourself a favor and go to the non-partisan factcheck.org. Check out Obama. That whole, hand over heart thing was not for the pledge of allegiance. There is even a video showing him do the pledge with his hand over his heart.
FYI, I am not the trigger person, nor could I be. I’m not even a good deer hunter (I jumped up & yelled for the deer to run so it didn’t get shot), but one thing I am aware of is the Americans…
Those that have been breeding families for over 200 years right here in this USA. They are not going to be very happy if the public votes in a Muslim, especially after all that has been happening since the early morning of 9/11/01.
If you think because times have changed that deep roots are now cut, you might want to re-think it…
I’ve been blown by better & as far as out of the water, that must have been you & you must have been standing in a puddle, because that was no where near what getting blown out of the water looks like!
Besides all that, ya’ll can finish up here, I gotta get back to work. You have your opinion, others have theirs & thank God we are all entitled to our own!
It’s not just about Islam and you can discount Obama’s church issue, but others have been held to higher standards regarding personal decisions. Because Mitt was a Mormon he was part of a cult. How many times can you repeat right wing conspiracy and plead ignorant about constant breaking of campaign finance laws? Obama cannot have it both ways, not being outraged over racism spewed by Farrakhan and yet his church awards this guy and Obama is silent. Is it because Farrakhan is black and that’s acceptable. As president you must remain in higher esteem than allowing race as an excuse to reward that type of radicalism. He had a chance to set an example over and over. He refuses to wear something as patriotic as an American Flag lapel pin or place his hand over his heart and say the plegde of Allegiance. The United States of America is still the land of opportunity for ALL people. There are issues we may all disagree with, but first and foremost we are Americans! Our Brothers, Fathers and Grandfathers fought to save our rights, protect freedoms we enjoy today. Our Founding Fathers were so far reaching that they envisioned a country that espoused freedom for all. This country has made great advances in the past 230 years, it took some pain along the way, but damn we should be proud to be an American! I do not get that from Obama.
Words have no meaning for democrats, that quote made for a great sound bite. Why associate with a church and pastor who’s prodigal son is running for president. I forgot it’s diversity. Yet Romney is crucified for being a Mormon, successful businessman and governor and for having one wife for over 30 years. Obama hyprocrisy at it’s best. Words over action is the democrat’s platform.
I always said if a woman ran I would vote for her! Hillary will not have my vote, We need RON PAUL. Check him out he is the only HOPE there is. http://www.RONPAUL2008.com
I believe we are only the minority because the media doesnt want anyone to realize whats going on with our country! As time goes on more light will come to about the other canidates and people will wake up!
I have been supporting Ron Paul since last August. I have seen the statistics grow in leaps and bounds! There was 11 now there are 3. All it takes are people like me to open their mouth and start talking! http://www.ronpaul2008.com (o:
So you’re going to fine people for making a decision to not have health insurance just to bump the numbers?
What about people who work for companies that do not offer health insurance? What about part timers?
No wonder she’s struggling in the polls… most Americans don’t want this kind of heavy handed government involvement in their lives.
Anon, my jaw dropped when I read this…how can you force someone to have insurance that doesn’t want it? I thought we lived in a free society…
Personally, she lost my interest when she started running a “dirty” campaign with her husband. I’m tired of her telling me what’s wrong with everyone else. I could care less what she thinks about Obama, President Bush, etc…
It’s pretty sad when you have to tear someone else down to make yourself look good.
I’m not saying I’m voting for Obama now, but Hilary has certainly lost my vote.
I agree that this is not the way to “improve” on our health care system. Does it need some improvement? Sure. I don’t know of anything that is perfect that couldn’t use some tweaking. Personally, one way to get health insurance affordable is to reduce the med mal lawsuits, which drive up the premiums of the doctors. While I understand it goes much deeper than this, it is at least a start. There are certainly other ways to bring the price of health insurance down, but I don’t like her approach.
Quite frankly, I am surprised at the lack of uproar this has received on this site today. Everyone must be working. :)
I’m not saying I agree with her plan, but it seems to me our “free” society has created part of the problem – people expect “free” health care – and they get it
at our (govt & others who have ins) expense. How would Nebraskan suggest we handle the person who “didn’t want” health insurance when they are sick or injured and can’t pay for the services ? other than lawsuits, which costs the govt and plaintiff, and considering they probably don’t have assets to collect anyway. Maybe we should start allowing health providers to turn them away ?
Also, Nebraskan, the correct term is “couldn’t care less” if you “could care less” it means that you do care to some degree. Not trying to tear you down to make me look good :) just commenting
Not sure how Billary will handle this, but I have seen that Obama has proposed a penalty or surcharge of around 50%. Not sure how I feel about that yet, but the problem you bring up is one to think about.
Isn’t instituing a program like this just another name for socialism? We will take your hard earned wages and use them for something we feel that everyone needs to have, regardless of your personal needs.
Yes, Social Security is socialism, so this isn’t the first time we have traveled this route, but I am very surprised their has not been more backlash for her plan. Who determines if a person “can afford to buy health insurance but doesn’t”?
Years ago when she first started talking about her universal health care plan it was socialist.
I don’t like being forced to have coverage if I don’t want it, but I see both sides of the coin.
I pay for other dead-beats to have coverage via my tax dollars, so why not pay for it out of my own paycheck for myself? Why not take it out of the dead-beats’ paychecks, too? It’s not a pleasant solution, but it’s more fair that what we have now.
It’s like asking – do you want to be totally screwed or just sorta screwed? Totally ripped off or just sorta ripped off? Bad or worse?
I voted this morning, but I wasn’t overjoyed at my choices. After spending months reading about the candidates and trying to make an informed decision, I still feel like those in the running don’t know the first thing about middle-class life in the United States.
So I picked the candidate I felt had the most potential for being open-minded, reasonable, willing to compromise or make changes. Notice I didn’t list ‘honest’. Unfortunately, I’m way too jaded to think that’s a possibility. Guess we will see how it goes in November.
Kudos to all of you who have posted so far and refrained from the tired-***, empty, nonsensical “All Liberals Are Idiots vs. All Conservatives Are Stupid” argument. That is SO worn out.
KLS,
I didn’t bring it up because it has been used so many times I thought it was common sense now. :) j/k
Since when is a$$ is swear word? I typed ‘tired-a$$’ and they censored me. Good grief!
Helloooo, IJ… I’m what you call a “Grown Up”. If I want to say ‘a$$’, I’m going to say ‘a$$’. You don’t have to show it as ‘***’ like some Sunday school teacher’s hands over our eyes and ears. -groan-
Sorry… that was off-topic. Moving right along.
Anon Y Mous….forgive me for typing incorrectly…not trying to tear YOU down, but it must be nice to be perfect 100% of the time (i bet you never have sex do you because your too busy correcting grammar)
and you don’t fix a problem by just forcing EVERYONE to have health insurance, that’s putting a bandaid on something that needs stitches. and how do you decide who can afford insurance and who can’t based off their gross income? What if Joe Schmoe and I make $50k a year, but Joe has to pay child support for 3 kids, has a car payment, student loans, a mortgage and credit card debt…..i hate to tell you this, but that stretches $50k pretty far and then to have Hillary come in and tell him he needs to pay for insurance on top of that because she wants to be able to say she “gave” everyone health insurance.
my first suggestion is to stop giving free health insurance to illegal aliens. and the other suggestion is what someone else already said….stop all of these law suits against doctors that result in frivolous amounts of money being awarded (or maybe they could just hire you, Anon Y Mous, to stand over their shoulder and correct all of their mistakes)
and furthermore….people need to realize that insurance isn’t free….it should be affordable, but shouldn’t necessarily be free.
“Clinton said such measures would apply only to workers who can afford health coverage but refuse to buy it.”
What a line of BS and it is surprising just how many people are falling for it!
Just one question… who is going to define “who can afford it”?
Ok so I read it. Let’s take the control and payment of care away from the large corporations and evil insurance companies and let/force the people pay.
Say health care cost $4k per person per year ( that’s on the cheap side of todays managed care corporate prices) X 303M people = $1.2 Trillion.
Obviously the kids can’t pay. We have 180M people from 20-65 years in age who could pay. That’s $6,600 for each person over 20 and under 65.
Yes, we need to cover medicare ages as this, contrary to the government belief, is not already funded.
But hold on… there are 35M making less than $30k per year and there is no way the dems (left or center) will make them pay. (#s derived from US Census website)
So we the people will pay for the youth, elderly and the poor. Ahhh … What a nice federal ringing sound that brings to heart.
Back to math. We the 145M people paying for the $1.2T cost = $8,200 per person over 20. I am willing to commit to $16k per year for health care for my part (including wife) to have everyone covered with one caveat. “Everyone must agree and put in this amount or go to jail as a deadbeat.”
Good luck on getting this through once you explain the cost to the working class.
So that idea didn’t work… Lets try the next political shell game. Let the rich pay. Yeah… that’s the ticket! If we structure the payments according to income tax brackets then it could be spread more evenly.
Do you realize in 2006 the total individual federal income tax received was $1.2Trillion? (Wikipedia)
So, we need to collect from the people the same amount as we collected last year in federal income tax.
Double the federal income tax for individuals to get everyone healthcare.
Uh I dunno… small guess… I don’t think that will pass either.
So unless the care becomes significantly cheaper than it is today… stop….wait…. I must repost this statement I read earlier;
“People believe they have a right to health care. After all, Hillary said so, didn’t she? But you cannot receive health care unless some doctor or health practitioner surrenders some of his time – his life – to you. He may be willing to do this for compensation, but that’s his choice. You have no “right” to his time or property. You have no right to his or any other person’s life or to any portion thereof.”
I therefore believe good health care is something you must pay for personally through work and strive to make good buying decisions just like any other product .
If you have extra time/money help the poor.
Yes, even sitting here in lovely liberal Berkeleyville.. I said it.
Of all the stupid comments! Yes, let’s punish the uninsured for the failure of their employers to provide them with coverage.
The failure of their employers?! Yeah, that’s why people start gas stations, so they can buy health care for their employees. And if they don’t like it, Hillary will just garnishee everyone’s wages. That’s what Amerika is all about.
I have always been worried about “Big Brother” only to find I should have been worried about “Big Mother!” Mamma Mia!
OMG!! Who is going to decide who can afford it? Will they go through your budget and determine what other obligations you have, what family you’re supporting or maybe she’ll get your mortgage/rent payment reduced so that you can afford health care. I believe that there should be healthcare coverage for every American but this is a bit too Big Brother for me.
Anyone who needs “free” health care should submit a budget and personal finance plan. My guess is that once you cut out the cigarettes, lottery tickets, booze, paying premiums for groceries at 7 Eleven, unneccesary cell phone, cable bill, etc you could find enough to pay for healthcare. Then we would only have a small problem.
Of all the candidates running for president — both Republicans and Democrats — the one who has raised the most in campaign contributions from the insurance industry is Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.).
http://www.pianet.com/NewsCenter/BizPolitics/1-8-08-6.htm
She just cares soooo much.
Libby, I love your point, but if you can’t force people to have health ins…you can’t force them to be healthy and make good decisions regarding their lives either. :)
“Then we would only have a small problem.”
Oh brother. The problem is that adding 40+ million to the roles of the insured – people who often DON’T WANT insurance and pay for health care out of pocket, will increase the price for all because of the increase in demand. Therefore, most people will only be able to afford the govt subsidized plan. Therefore, people who now can afford their own insurance will be forced into the govt plan.
Don’t think for a minute that she and her cohorts don’t realize this. They are trying to control a huge part of our economy – not to mention a huge part of your life. Grow up people!
I went for Obama who is calling for requiring parents to get insurance for their kids so they can go to the doctor. That’s something not too expensive as most kids are relatively healthy and I think his plan calls for some help for the people working and who’s income puts them between Medicaid and being able to afford insurance.
Clinton does raise a real issue (same one Romney before he became a conservative raised) which is what do you do with the guy who can afford health care but figures he will take a chance and if anything major comes along he can stick the government or hospital with the bill. I don’t support mandatory coverage for all but do see there is a real problem here.
Before debating if the solution is correct, perhaps we can see if we’ve identified the correct problem in the first place. My view is that all citizens not having health insurance is NOT a problem… it is merely a choice.
The response will most likely be that prohibitive cost removes the idea of choice. Nonsense. One can afford health insurance by giving up smoking, drinking, or sharing one car instead of having two. Tens of thousands of low-income families do this every year. Because their choice to protect their children with health insurance is more important to them that the status of that 2nd car, or a fancier house that they also cannot afford.
My view is that the problems with health care are not being discussed. Med Mal premiums, folks, are not the driving force, by the way. I agree there are needs to improve the court issues and verdict nonsense – but that will not impact the scales as you hope they will.
The greater cost savings throughout the health industry is waste, pure and simple. Every analysis of any such system has proven that lack of use, duplicate equipment sitting idle, expired materials, etc are by far the largest area for improvement. There are all kinds of facilities with very expensive gear that are not getting used — while there are other places trying to use the same materials 3 times intended capacity.
The ugliest problem has been cited, but isn’t popular to talk about – health providers being openly allowed to turn away patients (by the way, they figure out how to do some of this on their own). Why this is so unpleasant for people I don’t understand… but it is needed in a world that uses money to buy things.
If a homeless person is hungry or needs a blanket, they cannot go to Safeway and take the food… but they can go to a hospital, who is forced to treat them. How silly is that?… we don’t address the front problem, but we cry over the end result?
Illegal aliens are one of our greatest financial sins on this subject. They walk into any hospital and get any service they need. This is a GREAT encouragement for any sick foreigner to come here… if your child was sick, and this was how to get them treated, you would move mountains to do it. And so we pay for this… while not feeding that homeless American at the Safeway. Not very clever, are we?
Let people that want health insurance buy a basic policy with a large deductible if they want to. Get health insurance out of the employers offices — the tax issues are what screws that up — your employer has no business picking your health plan in the first place. Then if people don’t want to buy their own policy, they don’t have to.
Then merely tell the health providers that they do not have to treat patients, other than to the level of immediate first aid ONLY. No beds, no rooms, no specialists… just a first aid station style for ABC basics.
For the waste, that will come only when there are less interference issues by government in the first place. If you want to see how government costs layer each step, just review the method of Medicaid and Medicare billing auditing that are already in place. That’s more than a 15% cost kick all by itself, just in auditors and billing clerks.
While I realize the emotional issues are the ones that get talked about… the politicians are playing you on a field they’ve set up where they can beat you. If they address the ACTUAL problems, then they have to be accountable. Instead, you need to focus on the root causes, and not the symptoms, or the complications that have developed because of the errors at the beginning. Go back to the basics.
“…what do you do with the guy who can afford health care but figures he will take a chance and if anything major comes along he can stick the government or hospital with the bill?”
It’s called a collection agency.
I like how everyone reacts negatively to this. What is the difference if the communists take my money via taxes and then spend it on things I don’t approve of, or if they force me to spend my money on something? Either way, they have taken my money.
This will happen someday. Remember, the UNITED STATES was founded as a REPUBLIC, and NOT a DEMOCRACY, as we now have.
As a wise man once said:
“A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage. ”
Please remember this when you vote.
Good ones, both of you.
KLS, I agree with you on principle. But, they won’t take any tax dollars from the deadbeats. They never do. She’ll make sure that there are all kinds of loopholes for “low income” translate no income, no working, breeding out of wedlock like rabbits, scumbags, who are referred to as the “poor families” by the drive by media. You and I will be taxed to the hilt and get NOTHING, just like always
This country has for over 50 years ran the darn near perfect socialized medicine. The agency who runs it is The V.A. (Veterans Affairs) If you are eligabale for veterans medical you can be treated in Ca. on Friday, go visiting in Fla on the next Tuesday get sick and ALL of yourr records including your last visint is part of a nationwide data bank that ANY physican or hospital can access.
If it can work for the V.A. why can’t we make it work for ALL Americans?
As far as this not getting a larger posting, let’s not forget the parade for the NY Giants. It goes to show how many are still involved in Superbowl.
Clinton vs Obama, I don’t think either is the best for America. Mr. Obama keeps saying he never voted for the war. Of course not, he wan’t in the senate and wasn’t allowed to. Dah. Sen. Clinton says if she would have been given the truth about the situation and not lied to by Pres. Bush she would not have voted for it. The bottom line is the entire country was lied to. She should have voted her own conscience and not use a crutch now.
The dem’s better start looking for some better qualified candidates, it appears the field is getting mighty slim
Willy-I have no problem with a collection agency but the problem comes when you have someone go in for something major. We can be talking about big bucks. I know someone who had a baby in neonatal care for 4-5 months and the bill was way over $100,000. Luckily they had insurance but is it realistic to expect to get real money from someone making $40-50k? You would be lucky to get enough to pay the interest running up on the judgment.
Hmm, let’s see. We have a group of individual men & women that calls themselves government. They derive their revenue through violence or the threat thereof. So why is anyone surprised when some lowlife, scum sucking, parasite-er, I mean politician (with apologies to all lowlife, scum sucking parasites)-proposes something like this?
O.K. I’ll save everyone’s time and list the cliche, zombie mind, statist responses that are inevitable to anyone who even dares to think that governments can possibly do anything wrong: but what about (the children, health care, the roads, ad nauseam)? What are you, an anarchist? If you don’t like it here why don’t you leave? What would happen if…? Well, we’ve got the best system in the world here.
TO OK: What a great post! much food for thought.
So, now on to Hillary’s Plan. Would like to know how she would propose to monitor it. For example, say I am divorced. My ex provides the health insurance for me and my children via his health ins. plan. Or, I opt to reject cover offered by my employer and purchase my own. How does she suggest these and other options be monitored and kept current-? PLEASE, don’t suggest that we monitor it like we do uninsured auto drivers. THAT works well-NOT!!
Also, no one has mentioned COBRA option. For the majority of folks, if they are unemployed, paying the exorbitant COBRA premiums is a joke. Just paying for food/shelter is a challenge.
RE: the homeless. There, but by the grace of GOD go many of us. Your livelihood can disappear in a millisecond. Unless we’ve been there, not to judge. All homeless folks don’t drink/smoke, etc. away their funds.
I say we drill down on the ambulance chaser attornies and take a look at our legal system and the awards that being handed out. Insurance companies get the bad rap, but they have to pay what our courts say to pay. Somebody has to pay premiums for those huge judgments. Maybe if our judicial system would be addressed/corrected, health insurance premiums would go down to where MOST could afford it.
There’s no perfect answer, but Billary’s suggestion bites!
Hospitals used to be run by churches. When health care was a charity, the costs were manageable. Now the govt regulates it to death and runs hospitals, so it’s all screwed up.
Used to be that schools were all private or church-run. Now the govt runs most of them and Johnny can’t read. Why’s that? Do you detect a pattern?
UPS and FedEx do a marvelous job of delivering mail. Why does the USPS still deserve a monopoly on letters?
I guess health care is in the same emanation of penubras in the Constitution as abortion.
Oh, and Hillary Pantsuit Clinton’s plan is very similar to the one Romney foisted on Mass, and now Mass has the highest health insurance costs in the nation. The health insurance companies have made her the #1 recipient of their campaign contributions for a reason.
Ok Hilary how about you fix ( or even come up with a plan to attempt to fix) the Social Security pothole before you go dig another one.
I know you can’t talk about Social Security because the “Press” will kill you. Your husband as President and you as Senator ignored fixing Social Security for the last 16 years. HElloooo its bankrupt!
Maybe if you and Bill had fixed one social economic problem the public would be inclined to let you try out health care.
It just appears to the rest of us, you want more control over more of our money.
The greatest measure of a societies success is the extent to which it is able to take care of it’s most vulnerable citizens! It seems to me that in the USA today, we collectively take our overall affluence as a right, and exhibit little empathy for those less fortunate then us. Imagine what we could accomplish as a society if everyone (rich and poor) colletively said “what can I do for you”, instead of “what can you do for me”. It has to start somewhere.
Now, I don’t know if the answer to the question of how to provide quality health care to more or our citizens is what Sen Clinton suggested, but all I hear on these posts is a lot of complaining about why should I pay to help others. How about some realistic ideas on how we can help the uninsured!
Remember you already garnish my wages, its called taxes, this is no different than a tax. You already waste my tax money on things I dont need or want, like the war in Iraq.
So I know if we didnt spend all that money in Iraq we would have more than enough already for universal health care AND a tax cut!!
The real problem is that the pharm companies own the politicians and therefore we pay 10 times what we should to line their pockets.
I guanrantee I could get elected If I just promised to make Martin Luther King Day a mandatory day off for all Americnas to be celebrated the day after the Superbowl.
Also, if you want a war, you better go after China now, before they get any stronger, and before they call in the massive debt we owe them…..
Willy,
Your point is well taken: governments are totally incompetent, dishonest and despicable at any task they undertake. No, I take that back; governments excel at three things. In fact they are the best of any entity in the world at these three: 1)Lying with every word they speak; 2) Stealing people’s property; & 3) Killing extremely large numbers of people (over 100 million in the 20th century alone killed by governments).
Of course we all know that if governments ceased to exist (sarcasm ahead), you and everyone you know would instantly start eating babies, burning down your neighbors houses, raping everyone in sight, poisoning food supplies, create instant monopolies, destroy the roads, not take care of your health, and every other harmful act.
Gee..I’m…sure…glad…we…have…
governments.
Ok, I am going to play devil’s advocate here. Wouldn’t it be better to have EVERYONE pay a small percentage of their paycheck for affordable insurance rather than have private insurance companies increase their rates and reduce coverage
(a result from which I am suffering now).
I am a firm beleiver of “what goes around, comes around”. Who do you think is paying for uninsured patients? Why do you think medical costs keep rising? Wouldn’t it be better if we all could benefit from better health care at an affordable price? I would like to hear Clinton elaborate on her plan and I know that this is something that won’t happen overnight. Does anyone else have any better ideas? Anything is worth a try if we are all to benefit from health care coverage. There are too many people who couldn’t care less about John Doe next door, but shouldn’t we start getting away from the “me, me, me” attitude? How about “all for one and one for all”?
Demos,
Nice name, first off. Other than that I have to disagree with you. I don’t think we take our affluence as a right. In fact, I think that people who don’t have anything feel entitled to have something. They feel they have the right to be affluent, and that it should be handed to them! Perfect example: subprime meltdown! I don’t have a “right” to everything I have, but I sure as hell worked to get it and feel I deserve it because of that work. I also don’t think anyone else has the right to take away from me to give to someone else who won’t help themselves. I do understand that some people on welfare need it; however, it should be a temporary fix. Unfortunately, it has become like a drug that once on you are hooked. I like McCain’s idea that anyone on welfare be required to work 40 hours a week. That is great! Make people work their way out of their troubles. I don’t have an entitlement attitude, as I feel most of the people here do not. They have simply worked too hard to have their money taken away for some slack. I would also wager the true success of a nation is seen through its people’s ability to provide for themselves. Now I am off my soapbox. Carry on.
I agree as to Clinton being a good buddy with the Health Insurance Industry. You won’t see them fighting her this time around if she gets back to the White House like they did last time.
Again, I don’t see no easy answers. Crack down on the malpractice suits and eliminate defensive medicine along with improvements in administrative costs and health care will still be very expensive. We could have 1980 or 1960 health care costs but does anyone want 1980 or 1960 health care? Remember when cancer always was a death sentence? Or no annual physicals covered by insurance to catch heart problems and cancers early on? I will pass on going back to the good old days.It gets more expensive and complicated each year because it gets it gets better each year.
We can tweak the system some but it never is going to be cheap and we need to start from that point.
I have no problem paying for health care. I pay for it now. What I want is the same health care the President and the congress get. Make the playing field level. Trust me, if Congress has to have the same as everyone else, the coverage would be good for everyone. It follows suit with Social Security. Take away their government pensions and make put them under the same system as the rest of us and the SS problem would be fixed right quick!
“what can I do for you”
That’s funny, this is what I hear when I walk into any store WHERE PROFIT RULES. When I go into a govt agency I’m told where to sit, where to stand, what to give to whom, etc. Yes, let’s let the IRS run the hospitals!
Willy let someone else speak and go back to work. I think we know where you stand at this point.
Sounds good but one of the basic flaws in governmental health care can’t be ignored. Anyone that works in insurance knows that once the profit motive is removed, the incentives to remove waste and combat fraud are removed. Under that scenario, escalating medical costs will continue to increase.
I had learned once that in a capitalistic society a free market is most efficient. Government should only become involved in situations of market failure. The fact that 1 in 7 do not have health insurance needs to be addressed; however, the converse fact that 6 in 7 do hardly suggests market failure.
And, what happens to the people that work in the health insurance industry currently? Have the dems addressed the impact socialized medicine will have on the economy if these people lose their livelihoods?
Easy Hilary answer: Health insurance industry employees will become government employees and will work dilegently like those in the post office, DMV and Departments of Insurance.
Guaranteed union jobs for all!
I can see the cost savings allready
Liberals have no idea of property rights or basic economics: Supply and demand. The below quote explains why this “universal” health care idea is doomed and will only raise costs. Also, hypothetically, what is she going to do when health insurance carriers either (a) have enormous losses and have to raise prices or (b) have enourmous profits (she wants to implement a windfall tax on big oil)?
I love this quote:
People belive they have a right to health care. After all, Hillary said so, didn’t she? But you cannot receive health care unless some doctor or health practitioner surrenders some of his time – his life – to you. He may be willing to do this for compensation, but that’s his choice. You have no “right” to his time or property. You have no right to his or any other person’s life or to any portion thereof.
Alan,
You’re absolutely right. Everyone has the right to his own body and that which his body produces. Now the reason that government claims this “right” is simple: they have guns and various other means to kill people who don’t do what they say.
Speaking of that, has anyone heard the one about the government admitting countless numbers of times over the past two centuries that it has absolutely no obligation or duty to provide anything to anyone? Don’t believe it? Google Bowers v DeVito to find out for yourself.
Do not waste anymore time debating Hillary & the plans she has been passing off as big ideas! I agree that it would be nice if there was a fixx in the works for some of the problems we have as a nation, however Hillary is not the answer, but merely a talking head with PMS & just enough of an education to talk in the big circles & sound like she might understand what she just said! She may have some good points, but so do all of us at times. I just hate to think that she might be the front runner & hope that the American public is not convinced that she is the man for the job! OBama isn’t the one either, VOTE REPUBLICAN!
Just a thought…but, for example, there was a situation where my fiance thought he had lost his health insurance due to an administrative error at the HR office at his company….so he and i looked at a couple of options including taking the risk of going without health insurance for a year…
i called our auto/renters insurance agent and he could offer major medical ins for a monthly premium that is roughly the same amount as a cable/internet bill or a cell phone bill….he could have easily rebudgeted, gotten rid of cable/internet as that isn’t a necessity and not seen his budget be greatly affected. (luckily his HR dept corrected the error and he has his ins back)
i think it was libby who said this earlier…people need to prioritize.
i disagree with Demos…i think most people on this site are giving logical solutions…stop giving free coverage to illegals, ask people to put down the remotes/cigarettes and go for a walk, quit suing doctors for outrageous amounts of money, and quit acting like everything should be a hand out….
but….the operative word is logical….lol
It’s a beautiful sentiment. Let’s have everyone give up a small portion of their paycheck so that we can all have socialized medical coverage. Of course we already are all giving up just a tiny portion of our paychecks so that we can keep throwing money into a broken education system. And let’s not forget about the extremely diminutive portion of our paycheck that goes to social security, and this and that and everything else.
Bottom line, and yes I am a hard axx… I’ve worked hard for what I’ve got, just like all of you. I am tired of giving everything I make away. At some point and time we have to understand that we do not live in an entitlement society. If you want something, you have to work for it.
SFOInsuranceLady..
It is absolutely no suprise you have this “group” think opinion, expecially coming from San Fran – liberal capital of the world. But here is a portion of a good read explaining that GROUP theory:
(The below is quoted from an article)
On the Left you hear talk of group rights; on the Right, individual rights. That about sums it up, really: Liberals feel. Liberals care. They are pack animals whose identity is tied up in group dynamics. Conservatives and Libertarians think — and, setting aside the theocracy crowd, their identity is centered on the individual.
Liberals feel that their favored groups, have enforceable rights to the property and services of productive individuals. Conservatives think that individuals have the right to protect their lives and their property from the plunder of the masses.
In college you are taught to develope a group mentality, but if you look closely at your diploma, you will see that they have your individual names on them. Not the name of your school mascot, or of your fraternity or sorority, but your name. Liberals have been taught that the real value of any group of people – be it a social group, an employee group, a management group, whatever – is based on diversity. This is a favored liberal ideal because diversity is based not on an individual’s abilities or character, but on a person’s identity and status as a member of a group. Yes — it’s that liberal group identity thing again.
Within the great diversity movement group identification – be it racial, gender based, or some other minority status – means more than the individual’s integrity, character or other qualifications.
The political and social atmosphere now is where diversity rules, and a culture where individual achievement and excellence don’t count.
Alan,
I am curious exactly where the article came from. I only think it is fair you reveal your source so we can scrutinize as you so freely scrutinize SFO based on her locality.
There’s an old story that sufaces almost every election about a liberal thinking son/daughter of a very conservative thinking business man.
On spring break the daughter comes home and lights into the father about his conservative thinking. She tells him that only by being a more liberal, caring society will we ever manage to survive and improve ourselves.
To this the father smiles and asks about the son/daughters room mate at school.
The son/daughter answers that the roommate will probably not be there next quarter as their grades are less than stellar.
To this the father again smiles and suggests… Well you have a 4.0 GPA. Why don’t you offer to give your roommate some of your grades so they can stay in school.
This enraged the son/daughter. I’ve worked hard for those grades. Unlike XXX who parties all of the time, I have studied hard to earn those. There’s no way that I am going to give them up.
The father smiled again. So you’re not all that liberal afterall.
Pointless? Maybe, but most all of us here have worked hard for what we have. If someone really needs help, we would surely give it. But for people to expect that they will get a free ride… BS
Remember:
If you are not a liberal by age 18, you don’t have a heart.
If you are not a conservative by age 40, you don’t have a brain.
Alan,
Thanks for posting that. Seriously. I have already printed this to read periodically. The more and more I read of the libertarian principles, the more and more they seem to make sense.
Wow,
I was just playing the Devil’s advocate. Not trying to solve the nation’ problem.
Yes, I understand that SFO is the “liberal” capital of the world,(I was born & raised here – I wouldn’t live anywhere else) but there are some of us who are “middle of the road” and would like to see some change…it’s just not working with the way it is now – let’s get rid of bipartisan politics and all work towards one common goal. I’m quite the dreamer :)
Let’s get one thing straight- neither Obama or Clinton is talking about have a universal government plan. Anyone with health insurance through work will see no changes. Anyone without insurance will be eligible for the same type of insurance your mail carrier and other federal employees have which is to say health coverage from private for-profit companies competing against each other. Drive around Washington, DC during the enrollment period and you will see billboards trying to get federal employees to change carriers from one company to another. We are not talking about a Canadian or UK system and all this talk about socialized medicine is a lot of hot air. You can bet the health insurance companies wouldn’t be giving money to Clinton if they thought she was going to put them out of business.
Clinton and Obama do differ as to whether to make getting insurance mandatory and that is what the article is about but rest assured no one is talking about doing away with private insurance. Also, the proposed plans were first put forth in the 1970’s by a left wing pinko radical named Richard Nixon.
In his 1974 State of the Union address, Nixon called for comprehensive health insurance with the following remarks:
“Turning now to the rest of the agenda for 1974, the time is at hand this year to bring comprehensive, high quality health care within the reach of every American. I shall propose a sweeping new program that will assure comprehensive health insurance protection to millions of Americans who cannot now obtain it or afford it, with vastly improved protection against catastrophic illnesses. This will be a plan that maintains the high standards of quality in America’s health care. And it will not require additional taxes.”
On February 6, 1974, he introduced the Comprehensive Health Insurance Act. Nixon’s plan would have mandated employers to purchase health insurance for their employees, and in addition provided a federal health plan like Medicaid that any American could join by paying on a sliding scale based on income.
well, first of all, you can’t mandate we contribute to a national health care plan. similar to the social security – your going to find it bankrupt and no way out, continuing to put us in more DEBT. there will not be enough money. we already have enough of my money going to the IRS for taxes (state and federal).
1) do we need a national health care? possibly, but not to a demand that it has to be taken. like any other benefit, it should be an offer on the table without any strings attached.
2) child care – um… in many states it would be child abuse if you did not attempt to take care of any medical problems your kids have. just like you do you pets, you are responsible. now, if you look at some of these kids, where’s the child support for them? remember that this issue should be covered by both parties (mother and father). there are deadbeats on both sides of this fence.
3) true the statement someone said earlier, if the clintons having been in office, why did they not address/correct the social security issue? what makes you think she will now? our parents are in need of help – and these are the folks who have paid more into social security than anyone else.
so how much more can we take as a society of the deliquent leaders in our congress TODAY. we need a change of leadership; stop re-electing folks back into congress if they are not getting the job done!
GREAT EXPLAINATION BANG!!! When you start analyzing the math of making this idea happen, it all now looks like “Billary” is just trying to get votes.
Of course, and he also gave us OSHA and the EPA, threw Taiwan overboard in favor of the Communist butchers in Peking, ended fixed echange rates between the dollar and gold and implemented wage and price controls, let the communists off the hook in Vietnam, signed the ABM Treaty, implemented the Philadelphia Plan that required strict quotas for minorities on govt projects, increased capital gains taxes, and probably ten other things that have escaped me.
So having Nixon on her side does not enhance her reputation, it just figures.
Pantsuit has not announced any differences between the plan that she tried to foist on us while her trailer trash husband was president and this plan. Her former plan would make it a felony to pay or receive cash for medical care, would tell med students where they had to go to school and what specialization they would have to enter, and other wonderful limitations of our freedom and strictures upon the marketplace.
She worked for a communist law firm in San Francisco defending the Black Panthers when she got out of college. She has never expressed regret for that poor judgment and continues to advocate socialistic solutions to problems caused in the first place by govt interference in the market.
I was absent that day in history class.
Don’t judge.
=)
“Pinko” is a deragatory term for a Communist (since red was/is the favored color or communism it seems).
SOFLady, I think you bring out some good points. I think we need to hear more re the plan before we start to put it down. Sounds like most of you would rather cover the medical cost for the uninsured, which is what happens. I am tired of paying high prices for health insurance so I can help the uninsured.
Who would be most in favor of getting this passed? Seems to me she’s pandering to the non-workers or the workers with minimal wages. If I were in that segment, I guess I would vote for her (NOT EVER).
As far as the VA, it’s not all that. My Dad fought in WWII and came back with a Purple Heart. It was an assemblyline hospital. He had several health problems, and never saw the same doctor twice. You went to clinics where you had to wait for hours on end to be seen. It may have changed, but it sure sucked then for him and my Mother.
I heard an estimate on illegal aliens in the US, that there were 30 Million. If we kicked their sorry bums out of the country, wouldn’t that reduce the uninsured to something more managable? Maybe that much smaller number could be analyzed and solutions better than Heil Clinton’s can be worked out.
I think those of us who are putting it down without knowing the details are just being realistic….these over promising, all encompasing campaign statements are as tired as jokes about “no new taxes.” it’s played out…i wish these presidential candidates would live by the 80/20 rule…if they can get 80% of the country to be able to obtain affordable healthcare…then we’re on the right track.
and i still stand by my statement that if we stop giving free insurance and medical treatment to illegal aliens….a good chunk of the problem would be solved.
I LIKE MY STEAK RED AND JUCY, NOT PINK OR OVER COOKED. WE HAVE A CHOICE WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT WE EAT. I DON’T LIKE ANYTHING CRAMED DOWN MY THROAT. MABY IT’S BECAUSE I WORK HARD, HAVE A BRAIN, AND CAN MAKE MY OWN CHOICE TO EAT THE WAY I CHOOSE. I DON’T NEED A LIBERAL BILLERY TO TELL ME I HAVE TO EAT IT PINK AND SLICE IT UP FOR EVERYONE ELSE IN LINE TO PARTAKE EVENLY. I KNOW PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO LIKE THEIR STEAK WELL DONE AND OTHERS WHO THINK EATING MEAT IS JUST WRONG. WHO EVER SAID HEALTH CARE IS AN ENTITLEMENT SHOULD READ THE CONSTITUDION AGAIN, BECAUSE, I DON’T REMEMBER IS SAYING ANY ONE SPECIAL INTEREST / INDUSTRY SHOULD BE GURANTEED A ENLTITEMENT / PROFIT.
I AM GOING TO LUNCH NOW TO DIGEST THIS ISSUE, AND I THINK YOU KNOW HOW I’LL PLACE MY ORDER NOW AND IN NOVEMBER.
Ohhhhh. Yeah, I probably should have been able to guess that. But better to ask than to assume. Thanks for the info.
Good point on the VA. It is not a great example of what medical care should be.
Her plan may appeal, from a voting perspective, to the low wage earners who don’t have medical care however many of these people, if faced with giving up part of their income for health care, will not choose to do so. It happens everyday now. There are people who cannot afford to make the employee contributions to a company provided health care plan and they choose to go uncovered. There is a segment of the people that will take risks, go without medical care, and have little regard for their long term health. Our government cannot change the way these people live their lives. We try and try to implement more laws & regulation to make people act responsibly and they don’t do it.
A pinko is someone who is partly Red, like Obama or Hillary. In other words, a Democrat.
YOU CAN CHOOSE TO EAT IT RED AND JUCY, PINKO, OR NOT AT ALL. DO YOU REALLY THINK LIBERAL BILLERY HAS A CHANCE IN NOVEMBER? SERVE IT UP ON A PLATE AND SEE HOW AMERICA SWALLOWS IT. YOU HAVE A BRAIN & CAN CHOOSE TO HAVE YOUR’S WELL DONE, IF YOU WANT. I DON’T LIKE IT THAT WAY, BUT THIS IS STILL AMERICA AND WE HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO CHOOSE WEATHER TO EAT OR NOT TO EAT. BILLERY WILL MAKE YOU EAT IT “HER WAY” IF ELECTED AND BIG INSURANCE PLANS OUR MENU. I PROMISE YOU, NO MATTER HOW YOU LIKE YOUR STEAK; IT’S NOT ON THE MENU.
Concerned, I totally agree with you..I also believe that if the gov. keeps trying to manage our health care that it is going to wind up the same as our legal system. Those with money get off scott free of criminal charges. I wonder how that will parallel to health costs?
So, the greatest measure of a societies [sic] success is the extent to which it is able to take care of it’s most vulnerable citizens, eh?
Let’s see…maybe we can rephrase it this way:
from each according to his ability…to each according to his need.
How’s that sound?
About the same when Karl Marx said it?
DEMOCRAT,eh?
in the past several elections, have we not heard the words “I promise” or “I will”. has any candidate done the job they were supposed to do when they were elected into office. Reagan, is one president, who achieved greatness because he did achieve what we asked for. Others would start and then give up on the ship. the problem i have that the steerage of the ship is not from the oval office but from the capital building. the change is needed in that building more than the change of the president. remember, that all bills have to be passed by the congress before the president signs it into law. so, remember, the blame is on congress for not taking action. for example how long did it take them to raise the minimum wage? if hillary can get away from playing dirty tactics, maybe folks might listen. we do need a change its a matter of where to start and sometimes at the top is not an answer.
Read Hillary’s words: “I “might” be willing”. She is just saying enough to show that she is open minded. Hillary is going to tuck to the small business guy and the working people of this country. You start garnishing the wages of those individuals who do not have insurance, they will get cash paying jobs. Not all of them of course, but they will circumvent the system and those of us honest, hard working individuals end up paying for them as well.
Socialism may be fine in Russia and China not here in the United States of America!Government does not need to take care of everyone. We have done fine for 230+ years.
She “might”? Maybe she wwill, maybe she won’t? Is that proof that she has an open mind or is a fascist lacking only the power to implement her statist agenda? No one born and raised in this country should ever have such a thought cross her mind, let alone pass her lips.
Thank God that she is apparently going down the tubes, and that the Dems’ hopes are being pinned on another socialist with even less chance of getting elected than she had. Thank God that maybe now the Arkansas Trailer Trash Circus just might be ready to leave the stage.
If she doesn’t get the nomination she and Billy Jeff will divorce, and neither of them will remarry: both for the same reason.
OK – you’re right on! Wudchuck – Our parents need help? They’ve paid more into Social Security than anyone else? I’ll guarantee that is not true. If they’ve retired anytime in the last 10 years, it certainly is NOT true. They’re repaided far more than they’ve put into the system in as little as 30 months!
Health Insurance costs what it does primarily because of MEDICARE and MEDICAID. The government controls (and underpays) for services to those populations and guess where the providers shift the cost? This has been worsened by the growing 65+ age group and the expansion of medicaid. Now add all of the illegals and uninsured. Those WITH insurance truly support the system. If we go to a national health insurance plan, controlled by the government, the quality and accessability of care will plummit, over time. The best and the brightest will simply NOT GO INTO MEDICINE (to work for the government!). They’ll become attorneys instead – GRAB YOUR WALLETS!
AND, don’t expect it (National Health Insurance) to be any cheaper! Look at what’s happening in Massachusetts! The cost is certainly NOT going down!
Exactly. Plus, it is illegal for doctors to charge people less than they charge Medicare.
What would happen to the price of TV’s if the govt gave everyone $2,000 to go out and buy the TV of their choice? You wouldn’t be able to find one under $2,000, that’s what.
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t my employer offer “Major Medical” coverage a few decades back and I was responsible for the cost of routine annual physicals and minor ailments? As a percent of my wages the cost of healthcare was minimal. Again, my memory be have failed me but I thought that a major portion of annual health care cost was the annual physical. Perhaps we should go back to “Major Medical” coverage and pay for the little stuff ourselves.
Al you are correct. You can go back to Hillary’s college days to see how far left she is. Her socialist/communist thinking does not fit in with America’s values. However, her friends on the left are repeating the mantra so often that some Americans believe in this entitlement unfortunately true American History is not taught in our schools any longer and the willing accomplises in the media also believe that Liberal/Progressive or whatever else they want to call themselves, crap.
The scary thing is that Obama is the #1 most liberal member of the senate according to National Journal, while Hillary is only 16th.
Hussein Obama has no health plan. He is relying on his oratory skills, which he says nothing during his campaign speeches. All he says he is the candidate of change. The problem also means we need a change in the House and Senate, as they are gumming up the process. What’s scary is the democraticly controlled Congress does not want to work with a Republican, they would rather increase taxes, adopt a socialize medicine plan to make Americans more reliant upon government, thereby growing government and increase spending. So the more money that Rangel, Dingel and Murtha can get out of ALL Americans the better.
Bush naively has tried since day 1 to work with the democrats and they continue to burn him. So where is the change needed. With Pelosi and Reid leadership this country is headed down the wrong road.
Hey Tar Baby, spending has increased under Bush more than any other president. Huge deficite, crap economy, expensive useless war/
You are the most dim witted republican weve seen yet.
And you think Bush tried to work with the Democrats from day one? Read the news you fool.
I’m wondering when, prior to them achieving a majority in Congress, Bush tried to work with Democrats. And even since then he’s just threatened to veto anything he doesn’t like, or vetoed it in a couple of cases, because the Dems don’t have a super-majority.
All politicians do is increase spending. And quite frankly, since they all increase spending I’d rather have people who fund it in charge than those who try to hide it. Bush erased a record budget surplus that could have kept Social Security solvent and worked on the national debt and turned it into a debt so huge that we can barely pay the interest, let alone pay it off. Give me a “tax and spend” any day over a “borrow and spend”. I say that only because I don’t expect to ever see a “live within our means”.
Hey Dick, don’t be one now. By no means am I was giving Bush a pass on the spending issue. I think I’m a pretty good republican. Bush has certainly been a disappointment in his spending like a drunken sailor and his appeasement of the democrats thinking they will work with him (ala Ted Kennedy and Education Bill in 2002) Kennedy and Crats stabbed Bush right in the back after he passed the Education Bill. No Bush has been no fiscal conservative and that is quite disappointing. However, at this time I will take any Republican over a Clinton or Hussein. Especially with the two of them proposing more government takeover of the Free Enterprise System and our lives. And I will take a war wage in a crap hole like Iraq than in the streets of America (like NY, Boston or LA). This economy would be in the tank if we did not go on the offensive and fight terrorism over there. So stop your whining and take your head out of your a**. This country needs a real fiscal conservative in the White House and some misers in Congressional Chairs – we don’t need the Rangel types who are salivating to raise taxes and give us some kind of mantra about just taxing the “rich”. They are playing class warfare, you know that and I know that. But who ends up paying in the end? The upper middle and middle classes, since they make up the majority of the taxpayers. Heck, even good ole Charlie Rangel wants to re-define who’s a millionaire – if you make over $200K a year you’re now a millionaire. Why don’t they drop it to $161k a year, oh know than Congressman will be taxed more.
So nice try Dickie Baby, I’ll take a conservative Republican who really wants to cut spending and believes in smaller government than your liberal buddies who want more control over our lives and higher taxes so we can be indentured to government! But no one has the gonads to stand up and tell it like it is, the money flowing into Washington DC and local and state governments has perverted the system and those in control of the almighty dollar. Thanks for caring!
I didn’t realize Saddam was running for president. Where have I been?
Crap economy? Unemployment rate and inflation lower than under Bubba.
Deficit? There’s a war on, remember?
Expensive, useless war? Are you saying he should have ordered a cheaper one? What’s your idea of a useful war, bombing Bosnia?
Are you serious, you think that Bush hasn’t worked with the Democommies? The tax cuts passed congress, meaning it was a bipartisan effort. He let Teddy Chappaquidick Kennedy write his education bill No Child Left Behind. He became a democommie and supported amnesty for illegals aliens. He’s working with the democommies to hand out money to stimulate the economy.
You are aptly named, Dick.
Even more concerning is the types of Supreme Court Justices a liberal/Dem will put in. I’d wager that the Fairness Doctrine would become reactivated. This should concern you whether you’re a flipping liberal, a conservative, and anywhere in between. A Democrat President will be sure you never know what the thieves in Washington are doing, unless the controlling powers let you, meaning you’ll only know what the Republicans are doing. God help us all.
Has a republican president really run a transparent washington either? Generally, all politicians hide what they are doing. Even more so under this admin.
“Bush erased a record budget surplus that could have kept Social Security solvent and worked on the national debt and turned it into a debt so huge that we can barely pay the interest, let alone pay it off.”
Hmmm… maybe you’ll recall that the 9/11 attacks and subsequent stock market slide erased trillions of dollars in wealth, and greased the skids for the recession that began in Jan. 2000 – when Bubba was president. Maybe this had something to do with reduced tax receipts, ya think?
And when was SS ever solvent? There’s no money in anyone’s account because the dems under LBJ began pumping its receipts into the general fund (AND taxing SS benefits). It is at best a ponzie scheme.
WOW! I can’t believe the resistance this article brings to attention.
We are forced to buy auto insurance but when it comes to health ins looks like people don’t like that idea.
My feeling is that government shouldn’t be allowed to force anyone to buy any kind of insurance!
Clinton is like a fish of water right now.She has her millions that both she and her husband stole from the american people and she stands to loose and I hope she does.
Hillary is just as much if not more a hypocrit as her husband.
That reminds me who is running for president Hillary or Bill?
My question is what happens to those of us with private health care? If the government takes over health care and mandates it for everyone, does that mean those of us who are currently covered would have to switch to government health care?
(I apologize if that’s a dumb question…but one of my biggest fears is if the government takes over health care, the conservatives will leap at the chance to diminish the services directed at women…)
Off the top of my head I can’t think of a single administration (democratic or republican) that has kept its hands of Social Security. Since, up until recently, that budget usually ran into surplus it was ripe for raiding.
And that whole “if we don’t fight them there we’ll fight them here” thing is a crock. Fighting a preemptive war in Iraq does nothing to stop people from commiting heinous acts on American soil. If somebody truly wanted to hurt us here they still could. What we’ve done in Iraq is breed more terrorists – al Quaida was not in Iraq before we invaded.
And you can’t blame budgeting that increases spending while decreasing income on a stock market slide. It is impossible to balance a budget while spending more and taking in less. That’s why just about every other war in history has come with a tax hike – to pay for the thing.
One should also not connect the recession from the dot.com bubble bursting and the recession from post-9/11 fears. They are not connected. Clinton did not cause the recession after 9/11, people’s fears caused that recession.
If you recall the only time in the past few decades the budget was balanced was under a democrat – Clinton. It wasn’t balanced under Reagan, or Bush I, just under Clinton. I don’t say I agree with all of Clinton’s fiscal policies, but I do agree with a balanced budget. It allows us to see what we are spending our money on, and if we don’t like how much is being spent we know exactly where to cut. You can’t do that when you always run in the red. You don’t have the same options.
As for “No Child Left Behind” that was a campaign promise. If we remember our recent history Bush ran partially as the “Education President”.
The recent economic stimulus is also being touted by Bush. Both sides have taken it up, but Bush isn’t conceding anything on this one; he wants to give people money.
And the tax cuts were passed under a Congress controlled by Republicans – remember. There didn’t have to be any Democrats voting for it as the Republicans had a larger majority then than the Democrats have now.
If you recall the last president to give amnesty to illegals was Reagan – a Republican. Conservatives everywhere are looking at how they’ll get cheap labor if we truly crack down on illegals.
Sorry Al, there’s not much difference between Democrats and Republicans. But it takes people who are not party-fanatics to see it.
Nebraskan, I haven’t heard anyone talking about a single-payer system in a while. The plans I’ve heard about lately have all been about creating a government run backdrop; meaning if you’re currently insured you wouldn’t be affected (supposedly) but if you aren’t insured you’d have coverage through the government.
Just curious, are you supporting the feds meddle into the private healthcare system?
My take is we need to go one way or the other. We either need to completely socialize medicine or we need to make it a capitalistic market. From what I know, as little as that may be, the biggest problem with healthcare right now is that it is a partially socialized system. We have not allowed the market to determine the cost of healthcare in decades. Socialized medicine works as has been proven in many countries; and it doesn’t cost more than privatized medicine. I think we could drive costs even lower, and stimulate some advancements, by letting the market do its job.
I don’t think any plan put forth in recent memory (the last 10 years or so) has a chance of doing anything more than messing up the system. The plans I have heard simply introduce more government meddling in ways almost guaranteed to mess up the system. How many problems are caused by the government interfering in certain areas of healthcare? It’s one thing to regulate the industry for safety and health, and another to regulate pricing – however indirectly.
So, yes and no. I support government meddling if they want to go to a completely socialized system. Otherwise they need to get out.
And I’d prefer they get out.
Re, your statement: “Socialized medicine works as has been proven in many countries;…”
You might want to do a little research. You are soooooo…. wrong here.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/catosletter/catosletterv3n1.pdf
http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/13/Hernando/Socialized_medicine_i.shtml
You can do more research too. There’s a lot of information out there debunking your theory.
I read recently that the Brits skip treating people that are obese (who determines this), that drink too much, are too old (who determines), etc., because they cannot treat them. Not enough resources. They cannot get enough doctors. Dental care is almost non-existent (and this is very important in good health). I will try to locate this recent, enlightening article.
All socialized medicine does is gives good care to the very wealthy. This is only if doctors are motivated, which they won’t be for lack of income/reward for their hard work in medical school.
You are way off the mark on this.
Ah, but ask almost any Canadian or Frenchman and they wouldn’t trade their system for ours. Socialized medicine has been proven to work. I don’t prefer it over a completely capitalistic system, but I’d take it over what we have now if a compeletely capitalistic system were not an option.
I doubt socialized medicine in France and Canada and France is worth a wooden nickle. I will do more research because I believe you are wrong.
That being said, why do you personally want it changed? Do you have health insurance? If not, why? Aren’t you in the insurance industry? If so, why do you not place this as important, and YOUR RESPONSIBILITY?
Do you know anyone who has gone to the emergency room with an emergency and not been treated?
I’ve got so much more to write, but I’m heading home. It’s going on 6:00 pm here. I will put more information on line tomorrow, if I have the time. I have no doubt you are wrong. You’ve not given any supporting information to your theory that France and Canada are living in happy socialized medicine land.
http://www.galen.org/component,8/action,show_content/id,13/category_id,10/blog_id,994/type,33/
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8498
ad, I do have insurance thank you for caring. I have insurance of all types – home, auto, health, dental (I cancelled my life insurance for now, but will probably have it in the future). And if you paid attention to my posts you would understand that I prefer capitalism. As is pointed out by most people on this board (to my understanding), and by my own reckoning, the majority of the problems with our system are caused by too much government interference.
The government can run things, though not as efficiently as private industry in most (if not all) cases. The big problems seem to occur when the government tries to half-arse the thing. I say let private industry have a true go at this and see what happens. We’ll be somewhat messed up for a couple years while people go for some profit-grabbing and then the market will settle down. It will be a little painful, but better in the long run.
I hate to say it, but your arguments against socialized medicine are falling on deaf ears, because I don’t want socialized medicine. I truly don’t. I just think it’s the lesser of two evils if I can’t have my preference. You can find more information to support your position if you want, but that won’t change my desire to have a purely capitalistic healthcare system.
In my last post I did not mean to make it sound like ad is for socialized medicine, as he or she obviously is not. I meant only to make clear that I don’t need to be convinced that capitalism is better.
ad, you can save yourself some time and stop researching now.
“…directed at women”? Hey, aboriton is a (vile) man’s best friend.
“Fighting a preemptive war in Iraq does nothing to stop people from commiting heinous acts on American soil.”
It has so far.
“If somebody truly wanted to hurt us here they still could. What we’ve done in Iraq is breed more terrorists – al Quaida was not in Iraq before we invaded.”
Really?! So they were in 20-30 countries but not in Iraq? They were here, in Spain, Saudi Arabia, Chechnya, but not in the country of a state sponsor of terrorism.
How did you find out that they were not in Iraq? Did you go there and conduct surveys?
If you want more govt revenue, you cut taxes to generate economic activity. If you want to lower tax revenues you raise taxes to stifle economic activity. So since Repubs tout tax cuts and democommies tout tax hikes, who has a better chance of ending deficits?
Al Bro, you need an education. You think the war in Iraq has prevented terrorists from coming to the US??
YOU STUPID PEICE OF TRASH. Right after 911 – That was the perfect time to strike. They did nothing, and we were NOT any where near attacking Iraq yet. So how do you explain that?
And if there are terrorists in Iraq, why would they sit back and fight the strongest army the world has ever known?
By definition they wouldnt be terrorists any more now would they!
If they have all these millions of dollars, they would just fly in to Mexico and walk across the border with the Mexicans. It would be increcibly easy! Then they would just become suicide bombers.
And didnt Bush try to scare us with sleeper cells?!!!
Wow, they are DEEP Sleepers arent they??
You people are SOO DAM STUPID, you believe whatever crap the governement will feed you.
You are all stupid useless tax paying slaves.
You are all brainwashed by the government, while people like bush make millions off the war. You are all pawns, and the ellitists all laugh at you for being fooled so easily.
The US govt and every other govt has a history of lieing to the people. But you folks dont read books, so what do you know?
Opperation paperclip and op Northwoods, and a million other ways the govt has lied to its people to control them countless times over the past 50 to 100 years.
Wow Dick is taking it personal. Typical liberal who only knows how to chat by assaulting when you disagree. Dick that’s your opinion, many of us believe otherwise. Many of us believe that Clinton 1 had 7 chances to strike at Islamofacism and did nothing. Many of us think that terrorist were embolden by Clinton 1 inaction. Bush had the balls to take the fight to them. This does not make us any more ignorant than you. That’s America man, the freedom to think. America was founded by men who did not back down and believed in freedom. Many of us believe you are wrong Dick and your thought process is skewed, especially given Clinton 1 had the same intellegence the Bush Administration had, heck even Hillary voted for the war, but Bush right or wrong took action. America should never give in to Islamofacism!
Now Hillary wants to be President and she brings her socialistic mentality to the campaign. Well America does not need to take the further left road, including establishing a National Health Plan, administered by the government. Government cannot keep social security solvent. So Dick don’t be an ***, express your views no matter how wrong you are and let the readers decide.
God Bless America!!!
Once again, stupid assumption to assume I support Clinton and the Democrats. But it was the Republicans that sold weapons to Sadaam and befriended Bin Lady right?
Oh thats right, you dont read the news.
Once again, its pure simple logic.
A terrorist is a coward who usually blows himself up to kill defenseless noncombatants in order to scare a population.
So if you were a terrorist, would you:
A. Fight the strongest richest most technologically advanced army the world has ever known, knowing you could not win?
OR
B. Talk to your terrorist leader, and say hmm, why dont we just spend some of our millions on a trip to Mexico. Talk to some migrant workers and sneak over the border to the USA? We even have the same skin color. Then when we get over there, we shock the US by blowing our selves up in a Walmart! Do this 100 times and weaken the resolve of the American people. Not to mention the economy.
Ok folks, I know you are very slow, but give it a shot. But remember, if there are tens of thousands of terrorists, they cant all be stupid, right? It would only take 1 to do this.
SO dont tell me the terrorists are too stupid to figure this out.
Dick,
I have no idea what you’re getting at, Dick. Are you saying that the 9/11 hijackers were not terrorists, Dick?
You can’t make this stuff up —
http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=5700252&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1
Barak HUSSEIN 0bama campaign workers with his photo next to a Cuban flag with murdering commie Che’s Guevara’s photo on it.
Dick, did you know that the Clinton White House saw Saddam-Osama connection? Of course you didn’t, but you do now.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/7/11/154020.shtml
Stay off of http://www.dailykook.com today and google Clinton Saddam and you’ll get a real education.
Vote Commiecrat!
So why resort to name calling Dick? You made a somewhat rational viewpoint. I believe many of us really do understand the threat of Islamofacism in the United States and how it relates to illegal immigration. But remember we cannot profile, was it Ted Kennedy who said this was dispicable, ACLU claims it’s racism. So the brown skin analogy is tough to overcome in an age of poltical correctness. Also I understand how Bush has had a love feast with Saudi’s, how Bill and Hillary Clinton were paid somewhere to the tune of $25m in the past year by the Saudi’s. Why else would Hillary not want to release her tax return, she just loaned her campaign $5million, if the money is thought to come from the Saudi payment she could be in a heap of trouble (Yet another campaign finance law breaking). But that’s the typical Clinton operation. How the Saudi’s have deposited up to $500 million into the coifers of CAIR for legal defense use here in the United STates and Canada. Notice how CAIR claims racism in staged muslim events, then files suit. Muslim is not a race it’s a religion. While the war is not popular, it still makes better sense to fight the Iranian, Syrian and Al Queda terrorists in Iraq. This economy was very fragile after 9/11, it could not take another hit to the airline and transportation industry. Florida tourism fell dramatically. So killing terrorists in Iraq is better than trying to wage a war in the streets of LA, Boston or NY. Our thought process does not make us stupid, it’s our opinion, the freedom to express, so we will agree to disagree.
Hiillary is dangerous, she is dishonest and disingenuous. Her plan to takeover America’s healthcare is wrong in my opinion, radical and socialistic. Demonizing the health care industry is wrong, but it gets politicians votes. Getting them to the table to come up with a nationwide health plan and improve the delivery system in an affordable fashion should be a goal.
Actually, Lastbat, when the tax cuts were passed in early 2001, the Senate was evenly split 50-50. The Republicans were the majority party in the Senate ONLY because of the VP’s tie-breaking vote. This meant that the tax cut program had to be at least acceptable to the Democrats or the Senate wouldn’t bring it to a vote, since it takes three-fifths of the Senate to invoke cloture.
I know I am late to the arguement but regarding the Canadian healthcare system you couldn’t be more wrong. I have listened to several CBC broadcasts regarding how terible their system is. Waiting months for needed surgeries is a big problem. Those who can afford it are coming to the US for treatment.
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t it illegal for a provider to turn away people who need treatment, regardless of their ability to pay? That’s why the lines in emergency room are so long, people there for routine treatment.
YOU CAN CHOOSE TO EAT IT RED AND JUCY, PINKO, OR NOT AT ALL. DO YOU REALLY THINK LIBERAL BILLARY HAS A CHANCE IN NOVEMBER? SERVE IT UP ON A PLATE AND SEE HOW AMERICA SWALLOWS IT. SOME AMERICANS HAVE BRAINS & CAN CHOOSE TO HAVE WELL DONE, IF THEY WANT. I DON’T LIKE IT THAT WAY, BUT THIS IS STILL AMERICA AND WE HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO CHOOSE WEATHER TO EAT OR NOT TO EAT. BILLARY WILL MAKE YOU EAT IT “HER WAY” IF ELECTED AND BIG INSURANCE PLANS OUR MENU. I PROMISE YOU, NO MATTER HOW YOU LIKE YOUR STEAK; IT’S NOT ON THE MENU. I LIKE MY STEAK RED AND JUCY, NOT PINK OR OVER COOKED. WE HAVE A CHOICE WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT WE EAT. I DON’T LIKE ANYTHING CRAMED DOWN MY THROAT. MABY IT’S BECAUSE I WORK HARD, HAVE A BRAIN, AND CAN MAKE MY OWN CHOICE TO EAT THE WAY I CHOOSE. I DON’T NEED A LIBERAL BILLARY TO TELL ME I HAVE TO EAT IT PINK AND SLICE IT UP FOR EVERYONE ELSE IN LINE TO PARTAKE EVENLY. I KNOW PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO LIKE THEIR STEAK WELL DONE AND OTHERS WHO THINK EATING MEAT IS JUST WRONG. WHO EVER SAID HEALTH CARE IS AN ENTITLEMENT SHOULD READ THE CONSTITUDION AGAIN, BECAUSE, I DON’T REMEMBER IS SAYING ANY ONE SPECIAL INTEREST / INDUSTRY SHOULD BE GURANTEED A ENTITEMENT / PROFIT.
I AM GOING TO LUNCH NOW TO DIGEST THIS ISSUE, AND I THINK YOU KNOW HOW I’LL PLACE MY ORDER NOW AND IN NOVEMBER.
Hussein? So what if that is his middle name? I didn’t realize that your name discounted you from being elected. Oh right, this is America. Attack him on his policies and stances, not his middle name. BTW I am not a registered Democrat or Republican. I am simply making an observation that those who focus on Obama’s name are ignorant (note I didn’t say stupid, there is a distinction there). I guess you believe he is a muslim, too. If so I have a email I can send you where you can make 1 million dollars by simply sending me your account info and ssn.
Al, it was CIA reports heard on Fox News that told me Al-Quaida was not in Iraq prior to us invading. Hussein was not a religious person, he had no truck with bin Laden so kept his group out of his country (easy to do when you’re a brutal dictator with few scruples).
And there is no proof that fighting in Iraq has kept American soil safe. I may be missing a couple things, but I believe I have the big ones: 1940 – Pearl Harbor (not terrorism, but an attack on US soil); 1993 – WTC; 2001 – WTC. Feel free to add in overseas attacks, but be fair and count them all because not all attacks on US interests happened during the Clinton era.
Both Bush and Clinton took money from Saudis. The US has been kissing the Kingdom’s rear for decades.
Clinton had a few opportunities to take out bin Laden and should have.
What radicals on both sides need to recognize is that we have not had a great president for decades. Neither Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Johnson, Nixon . . . our last great that most people can agree on was FDR (too much controversy over JFK). Bush is not the savior the far right lauds him to be. Bush is simply connected. Hillary would not be a great savior either. Nor would Obama. Nor would McCain. Nor would anybody else running currently. None of them has the guts and the nation doesn’t seem to want to hear the truth.
Vilifying Clinton only makes you sound narrow-minded. Recognize that Bush has made mistakes too, and you will garner greater respect.
“United Nations imposed a number of requirements on Iraq, among them disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction, stocks used to make such weapons, and laboratories necessary to do the work. Saddam Hussein agreed, and an inspection system was set up to ensure compliance. And though he repeatedly lied, delayed, and obstructed the inspections work, the inspectors found and destroyed far more weapons of mass destruction capability than were destroyed in the Gulf War, including thousands of chemical weapons, large volumes of chemical and biological stocks, a number of missiles and warheads, a major lab equipped to produce anthrax and other bio-weapons, as well as substantial nuclear facilities.
“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.” -Hillary Clinton
http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html
So, Hillary disagrees with you too.
Al, you mean I can’t trust the “fair and balanced” news network either? If I can’t trust conservative reporters, who can I trust? Dang it!
Can someone enlighten me as to what rederick is? And can discussing it or using it be off topic? Thanks.
I searched Google for “rederick” but all I could determine is that it may be a surname.
I can tell you what “rhetoric” is though… but I’m not sure if it would be considered “Off Topic”.
~shrugs~
Capitalization and correct spelling would be a start. A high school degree to post would also help.
So the IJ staff states says that the war in Iraq was a bad idea and everybody knows it. Journalism is supposed to be neutral and unbiased.
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but for whatever reason, I don’t believe you’re actually a member of the “Insurance Journal Staff”.
Your spelling and punctuation aren’t exactly on par with a professional journalist.
But, if by chance you really are, how would your editor in chief like to know you just referred to the readers as “children” who need to “shut up”?
Since you’re on the “Staff” and all, why don’t you just lock the thread? Then we “children” would have no choice but to “shut up”.
GOOD BY DUSTIN…..
It’s like having Mama Clinton here to make sure we read only the things she wants us to!
I pity the person just starting to read this thread.
And Dustin, you’re still here! So glad to see you beat “the man”.
But there is some strange black car circling the parking lot. Very ominous….
Guys, there is a great new thread on Global Warming today!
Lets go wreck that thread with off topic posts bashing Al Gore and the CLintons, that will really piss off the 2 Democrats that read the IJ!!
And, of course, Republicans NEVER say things do make a good sound-bite or to get people off their backs. Never. Doesn’t happen.
Get real. They are all politicians. Give me an outsider. He acted crazy toward the end but I love Perot. He wasn’t a politician and wasn’t afraid to say what he meant. Give me another crazy sum-gun like that and then I’ll start listening. Until then they all sound too similar to me. There is no difference between Democrats and Republicans. Not any difference that makes a difference.
Obama isn’t even waiting to be elected before he shows his real colors.
AIM Says Media Cover-Up Obama’s Socialist-Oriented Global Tax Bill
Press Release | February 13, 2008
WASHINGTON, February 13, 2008 — Accuracy in Media editor Cliff Kincaid disclosed today that a hugely expensive bill called the “Global Poverty Act,” sponsored by Democratic Senator Barack Obama, was quickly passed by the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Wednesday and could result in the imposition of a global tax on the United States. Kincaid said that the major media’s cover-up of the bill, which makes levels of U.S. foreign aid spending subservient to the dictates of the United Nations, demonstrates the media’s desire to see Senator Obama elected to the presidency.
In a column posted on the AIM web site, Kincaid noted that Senator Joe Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, was trying to rush Obama’s “Global Poverty Act” (S. 2433) through his committee without hearings. The legislation would commit the U.S. to spending 0.7 percent of gross national product on foreign aid, which amounts to a phenomenal 13-year total of $845 billion over and above what the U.S. already spends. It was scheduled for a Thursday vote but was moved up a day, to Wednesday, and rushed through by voice vote. Kincaid learned, however, that conservative Senators have now put a “hold” on the legislation, in order to prevent it from being rushed to the floor for a full Senate vote.
Don’t sweat the BS!!!
Clinton is not going to be in a position to initiate a program such as this anyway so spend your time on something productive & stop pipe dreaming or whatever it is!
Hillary / Edwards / Barack
The wench is gonna get stopped
Obama’s the one that will be in the run
but Thank God a Republicans’ on top!
I hope you are right, Me. Osama and Hillary are successfully dumbing down Americans ingraining that government will take care of us. We don’t need those two socialists in power (we already have Pelosi and Reid) and certainly not government to take over the administering of healthcare.
I do have a serious question here. I am not a registered democrat, either. Why do people feel the need to call Obama Osama, or to draw an unusual amount of attention to his middle name that is Hussein? If you go to factcheck.org (non-partisan site) you can see where the whole muslim thing has been debunked. I don’t care if people don’t like his policies, but to use these types of racist undertones just make me shut out your opinion (one that could be valid, but will now be ignored because of your idiotic statement). Tar, if you simply misspelled, then I don’t direct this at you. I have seen this ignorant behavior more than a few times on IJ.
Dustin, it is not ignorance not did I mistakenly mispell Osama’s name. I, personally, am very concerned about the Islamofacism movement within the United States. Concerned that the democratic party is the majority supported by radical islam organizations like CAIR, MSA and ISNA. Whether you agree or disagree, Obama was raised by under the wahabbi religion of islam, the most radical of all islam. Yes his mother did raise him later on,know all that. The Unitarian Church which he is a member, back in October awarded and hailed Louis Farrakhan for his leadership and character or something of that nature, Obama did not denounce this. However he lauded his pastor and made it a point to say the pastor of his church is a confidant. I spelled Obama as Osama to get reaction. Americans do need to be aware that there is a stealth movement within the United States by islam to incorporate their Sharia law into our society. CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) board members like Nihad Awad have made it clear more than once, he wants Sharia Law to govern the U.S. The democratic party in this country has opened up the U.S. House to allow these people to address Congress. The Sergant at Arms of the Capitol had to deny access to one speaker (in October 2007) because he was on the terror watch list and our illustrious Speaker was unaware.
The Saudi’s have given $500 million to CAIR to use for legal defense in the U.S. and Canada for Civil Rights violations.
So I do not trust Hussein Obama, nor do I trust Hillary as she and Bill have received over $20 million from the Saudi’s. We have these politicians (including Bush) selling out the United States of America and doing it such a way that our Founding Fathers are rolling over in their graves.
So it was not out of ignorance I spelled Osama. It’s out of ignorance the American people are asleep and muslim/islamists are stealthly moving into our society and demanding we tolerate their customs and laws and using our Constitution to advance their cause. Look at the hole Great Britian has dug themselves not fighting the muslim movement.
And oh yea Dustin, if you want I could get you a tin foil hat to wear along with me.
I hate muslims, and I hope you do too. Remember, Obama is also part black.
What exactly is your point? Does it matter if he is white, black, hispanic, or heaven forbid gay?
I hate terrosists, whatever their ethnicity.
Dustin, you are either with me or against me. Will you wear the tin foil hat, or not?
Does anyone know what Obama stands for? Just curious, because he has become a media darling without anyone knowing what his plans are as President (Heaven forbid).
An excerpt of an article I read yesterday should be of interest to anyone who has concerns if the politician of their choice has more interest outside the US than inside:
“A torrent of secret money is flooding into the leading presidential campaigns, with more than $118 million, or one-quarter of the total raised in this cycle, banked without disclosure of who gave the funds or where the donations originated.
The money is coming from hundreds of thousands of donations of $200 or less, which have been widely praised for democratizing the system for funding White House bids. However, the surge in low-dollar gifts has come at the cost of transparency, since federal law only requires campaigns to itemize donations when a donor gives more than $200.
According to an analysis being released today by a Washington think tank, the Campaign Finance Institute, Senator Obama of Illinois led the pack with such small and secret donations, pulling in about $31 million during 2007. Rep. Ron Paul ran second in small gifts, raking in more than $17 million. At the end of the year, Senator Clinton and John Edwards, who has since dropped out, were essentially tied for third in unitemized, small contributions, with each candidate raising about $11 million.”
Ad, so now you are saying Ron Paul is a terrorist too??
Thats crazy, hes a great american in my opinion.
Black OBama is the real problem here.
Dustin, I don’t know who is using TAR to post the tinfoil hat or are you with me or against me. I did post the Obama and CAIR reference. Just wanted to clear that up.
It is pretty easy to google it or even check out his website. It is pretty much a democratic platform. I am curious where the interest outside the US comes from. I don’t see anything in there other than the donations are less than $200 and don’t have to be itemized. Are you suggesting something here? I don’t see where your inference is supported.
If the Muslims wanted to infiltrate the US political system, wouldnt it make more sense to do it with someone NOT named
Barack Hoosein Obama??
Duh, these people arent stupid, its amazing hes made it this far with that name.
You’re right! In an attempt not to send too big a post, I excluded my point.
“According to an analysis being released today by a Washington think tank, the Campaign Finance Institute, Senator Obama of Illinois led the pack with such small and secret donations, pulling in about $31 million during 2007. Rep. Ron Paul ran second in small gifts, raking in more than $17 million. At the end of the year, Senator Clinton and John Edwards, who has since dropped out, were essentially tied for third in unitemized, small contributions, with each candidate raising about $11 million.
Advocates of tighter campaign finance controls said the notion behind excusing donations of under $200 from the reporting requirements was that the sums were insignificant from an ethical perspective. “The idea is, it is too small an amount to worry about in terms of you’re not going to buy significant influence or access for $200,” a spokeswoman for Common Cause, Mary Boyle, said.
However, one area of concern with the flood of donations, particularly those made online, is that foreigners could be weighing in illegally in an American election. Mr. Obama’s Web site allows donors to choose an address in one of 227 possible countries or territories, including Iran, Iraq, Zimbabwe, and Yemen.
Mr. Paul’s site is even more embracing, permitting addresses in Syria and the “Occupied Palestinian Territories.” Michael Huckabee’s Web site seems to require an American address to make a gift. Donors to Senator McCain need to put in a ZIP code of some sort, but not a state.”
Dicky, not necessarily. Whether you like Hussein Obama or not, he has charisma and is a very good orator, while pretty much saying nothing.
We do now know that the Clinton campaign is in serious trouble and disarray. Obama is the alternative to another Clinton and really Black Americans feel they have an alternative to Hillary and the voting turn out amongst Black Americans for Obama is very high. CAIR is staying below the radar and is trying to build a grassroots movement. That certainly can be very effective.
So we shouldn’t vote for them because someone will try and assassinate them? I would assume terrorists wouldn’t care if the president is rep or dem. Just a thought…
I would hope America is not ignorant enough to get that upset over either of them being president because one is a woman and everyone thinks the other is Islamic and wants to save Africa. Although, that one email about Obama was spread by enough people, so there are plenty of ignorant people out there to think that way. I like Obama for some reason, but I do find myself being more fiscally conservative, thus Rep leaning. I have yet to decide though. And the save Africa thing comes from his church, which consequently identifies itself as black people in history, not black objects. The congregation, while mostly black, is not exclusively black as some would have people to think. There was a bow-tie wearing white theologian who has been there numerous times and was welcoming with open arms.
Me,to be honest it sounds like you are the type who would like to pull the trigger.
Ive got news for you though – Times have changed. And that goes for security too. It aint as easy to pull it off as it used to be. Even JFK had to be killed by the CIA. Some Hick like you could never get the job done.
No problem if there is a white guy at Obamas church – there are black, hispanic, oriental & pakistani folks at lots of churches, that’s not the point…
He can’t even put his hand on his heart to say the pledge to the flag… but he is charismatic & smooth at saying nothing & so far that’s all I have noticed… Do you know of anything he really wants to stand up for in AMERICA? Me neither…
I just don’t see him lasting, not that I am a prophet or anything close, just something about the man that I believe someone will try to take him out & will either succeed or not…
Dustin, the most fiscally conservative thing we could do right now is end the war and save billions of $$, RIGHT??
Me,
Please do yourself a favor and go to the non-partisan factcheck.org. Check out Obama. That whole, hand over heart thing was not for the pledge of allegiance. There is even a video showing him do the pledge with his hand over his heart.
FYI, I am not the trigger person, nor could I be. I’m not even a good deer hunter (I jumped up & yelled for the deer to run so it didn’t get shot), but one thing I am aware of is the Americans…
Those that have been breeding families for over 200 years right here in this USA. They are not going to be very happy if the public votes in a Muslim, especially after all that has been happening since the early morning of 9/11/01.
If you think because times have changed that deep roots are now cut, you might want to re-think it…
Me, oHHHHH
Dustin just blew you out of the water, beter get your facts str8 next time. HAHA!!
I’ve been blown by better & as far as out of the water, that must have been you & you must have been standing in a puddle, because that was no where near what getting blown out of the water looks like!
Besides all that, ya’ll can finish up here, I gotta get back to work. You have your opinion, others have theirs & thank God we are all entitled to our own!
Have a great day!
It’s not just about Islam and you can discount Obama’s church issue, but others have been held to higher standards regarding personal decisions. Because Mitt was a Mormon he was part of a cult. How many times can you repeat right wing conspiracy and plead ignorant about constant breaking of campaign finance laws? Obama cannot have it both ways, not being outraged over racism spewed by Farrakhan and yet his church awards this guy and Obama is silent. Is it because Farrakhan is black and that’s acceptable. As president you must remain in higher esteem than allowing race as an excuse to reward that type of radicalism. He had a chance to set an example over and over. He refuses to wear something as patriotic as an American Flag lapel pin or place his hand over his heart and say the plegde of Allegiance. The United States of America is still the land of opportunity for ALL people. There are issues we may all disagree with, but first and foremost we are Americans! Our Brothers, Fathers and Grandfathers fought to save our rights, protect freedoms we enjoy today. Our Founding Fathers were so far reaching that they envisioned a country that espoused freedom for all. This country has made great advances in the past 230 years, it took some pain along the way, but damn we should be proud to be an American! I do not get that from Obama.
Obama wasn’t silent. Unfortunately, some people just didn’t listen.
From Obama:
“I decry racism and anti-Semitism in every for and strongly condemn the anti-Semitic statements made by Minister Farrakhan.”
Words have no meaning for democrats, that quote made for a great sound bite. Why associate with a church and pastor who’s prodigal son is running for president. I forgot it’s diversity. Yet Romney is crucified for being a Mormon, successful businessman and governor and for having one wife for over 30 years. Obama hyprocrisy at it’s best. Words over action is the democrat’s platform.
JUST THINK, 9 MORE MONTHS OF REAL FUN.
ALMOST AS FUN AS “THROWING OUT THE BABY IN THE BATH WATER” (BEFORE IT’S BORN…….)
I always said if a woman ran I would vote for her! Hillary will not have my vote, We need RON PAUL. Check him out he is the only HOPE there is. http://www.RONPAUL2008.com
Dana, I agree, but unfortunately we are in the minority! I don’t think people really want a change!
I believe we are only the minority because the media doesnt want anyone to realize whats going on with our country! As time goes on more light will come to about the other canidates and people will wake up!
I have been supporting Ron Paul since last August. I have seen the statistics grow in leaps and bounds! There was 11 now there are 3. All it takes are people like me to open their mouth and start talking! http://www.ronpaul2008.com (o: