We can all be patting ourselves on the back and criticizing TARP now because the world financial system did NOT totally crash. Can any of you say that had TARP not existed we would not have sunk into a Depression a la 1930’s? Can you prove it?
The error was in not tacking enough conditions on the GoldmanSachs, who took our tax money via the AIG bailout and paid off debts to foreign creditors dollar for dollar, but yet were left free to pat themselves on the back at how successful they were. The govt should have been hovering a their shoulder leveraging those monies but did not. Goldman Sachs can pat themsleves about their profitis because we DID bail them out. The Bush and subsequently, the Obama admin should have gotten a LOT more leverage than what they got for all our money spent there. You tell me I am not allowed to engage in conspiracy theories, but I do have my opinions of why this occurred…(and the rich ARE different, my dears).
As for GM and Chrysler, do you all have any concept of how many jobs would have been lost had those two tanked? What the hell is wrong with you people…the Chinese subsidize their industry as do the Japanese and certainly the Europeans. Yeah, they blew it but we could not afford to let them fail either. Can you prove that the consequences of failure would not have caused another Great Depression?
How do you know? You are all Monday morning quarterbacking.
As for the economy, frankly, before this recession, I got tired of hearing that I had to CONSUME so as to stimulate the world’s economy…wasn’t that what we were doing? Weren’t we exhorted to spend, spend, spend by even President Bush? Maybe now we have wised up. Maybe now we all have to learn to do with less.
The deficit we have now is a result of two costly wars that may have well INCREASED our threat of terrorist attack. Iraq was a flat out mistake(admit it, it REALLY was). Afghanistan is a tar pit and will not end well (yes, call me Cassandra). Have we learned nothing from Viet Nam?
It is also caused by the Tax cuts on the upper classes. We have facts to prove the eroding income of the middle class. We allow every fool with a screed to be a not for profit. We allow every special interest group to have a tax loophole. We extract no consequence for domestic companies exporting our jobs. We extract no meaningful fines for businesses importing workers or hiring illegals.
We say we are “transitioning” into a service economy, but what does that really mean…low paying jobs for the majority with no benefits? No healthcare? No opportunity for higher education being priced out of the arena? All our necessary and strategic manufacturing outsourced to China? Our airlines purchasing european made planes that receive government subsidy so they can compete? If the economy is becoming global, what is to be our role in it…mere consumers..or adders of value? If so, where and how? How will we provide a better life for our children…or will we become resolved not to?
Where are the debates on the dwindling of the middle class? Of the increase in poverty? Of the impact of immigration? I would think that the Reagan/Bush tax cuts contribute to this erosion by stacking the deck. I predict that the country will continue to separate economically more and more if these trends are allowed to continue. And we fiddle while Topeka burns.
Where are the serious debates on these issues among our Congressmen if not ourselves?
No..better we call each other hateful names and label each other…another form of bread and circuses.
The economy is getting better! I know that people are still out of work, but many indicators are pointing in the right direction. It takes time to turn around an economy of this size. Hell, it takes time to turn around ‘your economy’ as a person.
Everyone is so mad right now due to the politics on both sides, they don’t want to hear anything but doom and gloom. Things are turning around.
YEs we are moving in the right direction and until the majority of our population, the back bone of our economy, can start to purhcase job growth and continued economy growth will be slow. Why would a small business borrow mony and hire if there is no one to purchase their goods?
We need to figure out how to increase the avergae income of our majority, it has decrease by 5% since 2000, that is a large part of our problem.
Agreed. We do need to get more money in the hands of the people who spend it. On movies, restaurants, cars, etc. The money will always head to the top, but starting more of it at the bottom is going to help tremendously.
Are you kidding me? There is a simple way to get money in the hands of people who will spend it. Reduce taxes! In additon to growing the economy tax revenue increses also. But that will never happen with liberal as that is how they get their power and fortune.
Great article! Umm… but too bad unemployment is still high.
All of this could have been avoided if the gov’t stayed out of it. Forcing banks to provide loans/mortgages to people who can’t afford it! Brilliant!!! (You can blame Carter for that). But it won’t help us to dwell on the past…
I think, in order for the gov’t to really pull us out of this recession, they need to lower taxes on the middle and lower income classes as well as small businesses, and scrap the health care bill (and start over with a new bill).
Maybe they could cut the gov’t emp salaries in half and then stay out of our business.
Create opportunity as opposed to creating welfare. Sounds good to me!
Geitner and the Fed congratulate themselves and pronounce a an A grade on the program, a program that lost between 50-100 Billion (projected). All while Goldman Sachs, which paid back their “loan” reported a 12 Billion dollar profit last year and are looking at 7 Billion this year. The recession, already the second longest in history, drags on despite that fact that the Feds state is was over last summer. And the improvement we are seeing is not the normal V shape that follows significant downturns. We are in a long U recovery which is partially the fault of TARP helping to extend the misery. And let’s not forget that Chrysler and GM still have a long way to go. The economy would have recovered, as it always does, Count me as skeptical, but the timing of this self congratulating announcement is more than a little politically suspect.
It’s the equivalent of Bush’s declaration of victory in Iraq aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln.
We all know how well that worked out for him.
The Obama and the Bush administration aren’t so different (for all you Bush bashers out there).
The only difference is that Bush accomplished what he set out to do (no more terrorist attacks on our soil). Obama still has a couple years left though… I am pulling for him! I hope he comes through on something!
NSS, my take is that he is a very nice man who had no experience doing anything and he has lived up to that resume. I wish him no ill will but his policies are destructive, both short term and long term. He may resemble a mis mash charictature of several President’s, that is why I see him morphing into Barack W. O’Carter. 2 years has been waaay to much and more than 4 years will put everyone on the waiting list for Prozac.
Lol!!! That is awesome. I agree with your analysis.
I think we are due for a great president… it has been too long.
If you are out there, please run in 2012. No one will be donating to your campaign because we are all broke… so please become friends with Bill Gates or any of the gov’t officials – they gotz tons of dough!
And what exactly is the current unemployment rate? I know the numbers that are reported every Thursday morning, the problem is, the large numbers of people who have exhausted their unemployment benefits are no longer counted.
I expect that a survey of everyone whose benefits expired within the past year would yield a significantly higher number than the current figure.
And then we can look at the lost home values attributable to short sales. The banks don’t lose because the government bails them out. The individual homeowners lose a significant portion of their net worth and now the towns and counties will lose because of a flood of assessment appeals driven by declining market values.
As much as you may hate Bush (probably because CNN/NBC told you to), he did keep us safe from further attacks.
I’m not a big fan of Bush… but that is the one thing he got right.
If you want to blame the real culpret… blame Carter. He signed the bill requiring banks to provide sub prime mortgages. This was the seed that started it all.
Sarah, it is political silly season where the politicos think we are all too dumb to get it. Want proof, look only to Calif where the debate is focused on an admitted illegal who is playing the emotional martyr role for having falsely obtained a job which paid $23 an hour, and who when challenged about her immig status is fired and then sues for back pay and MILEAGE. This is occupying Californians political attention all while Rome is burning. I guess they are used to the sight of flames and the smell of smoke so it seems the Santa Ana winds of change will be ignored and Calif will become Greece, redux.
Yeah this economy is getting better, RIGHT?
I dont know about you but I drive around and see empty commercial buildings with for lease signs and business still laying off workers. 3M just yesterday stated they were stoping payments for retired workers health coverage in 2012 due directly to the new healthcare law passed.
Watching the media this outlet included or Obama and Biden tell us that the stimulas is working is like the man who gets caught with another woman and says,”Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes”. After a while you stop believing anything they say because they statements in the past have been so unbelievable.
Really, the very people who screamed the house is on fire and told only half truths are now saying this!!!! This is about as funny as when the Russians said they were a truly free society!!! Idiots!
The Dems forgot that the American dream is to try and get rich. Aspirations help drive all classes. If they make it a social stigma to chase that dream, then we are all left with only the incentive they seek, to work mindlessly to fill the government coffers so they can distribute to those “in need”.
As of unemployment, this Friday will be the last report before the election and the projections are that it will rise by 1.2.tenths. This means that unemployment will be around 9.8%, with the real rate, including those who dropped off the roles and quit looking at around 16%. Now is that the “change” that we were looking for???
-Reinstate Glass-Steagall and put an end to speculation in the energy markets. Watch the price of oil/gas/consumer goods drop, putting more income in peoples pockets (providing they are employed)
-Quit it with this BS Quantitative easing. Helicopter Ben is only making things worse by flooding the market with more “liquidity” All its doing is making the uber rich, richer while decreasing the purchasing power of the dollar and spiking commodities prices. Besides…i thought the recession ended in 2009? If that were the case, why do we need QE2?
-Do not let any bush tax cuts expire. The last thing anyone needs at this stage of the game (and I used game intentionally b/c that’s exactly how this admin views this economy)is tax increases.
-Cut the size of the federal govt in half, then when you’re done, do it again.
-Want unemployment benefits or welfare? Pass a drug test first.
-Quit rewarding failure and punishing success. Get the damn government out of our lives PERIOD!
-Vote out all incumbents. Its the first and likely most important step to taking back our country and getting back on the road to recovery.
-Throw that fruit Bwaney Fwank in prison along with Dodd and 90% of the current idiots in washington. That goes for both parties. Let the housing market correct on its own. It will be painful but its better than the govt propping it up and delaying the inevitable.
Lets face it. The Tarp was a complete and total failure. It was a massive fraud/bailout of the same idiots that got us into this mess to begin with. It hurt main street and will for years to come. I don’t believe for one minute that the cost of this will be anywhere near where they estimate. Furthmore, if it cost taxpayers one penny, it was too much.
I could go on and on about this.
The Joker….not a fan of the government or liberals who are too ignorant to learn from history.
Please list and briefly describe Obama actions and policies with which you disagree. Be specific in your response. No points will be awarded for generalities about his beliefs, or comparison with historical scourges. Unsubstantiated claims about his heritage or religion may result in disqualification of your answer.
You should go take a look at the IRS website’s tax figures about the people who are paying the taxes in this country. As of 2008, the top 3.2% of the population paid more than 50% of the tax bill. The top 12.9% paid over 75%. (http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html)
The issue has nothing to do with reducing the taxes on the lower and middle classes as they have no responsibility for taxes anyways. Claiming the reduction in taxes for a portion of society that pays very little to begin with is the wrong approach. It’s an elitist point of view but the best approach might be reduction in the taxes of the income band of $250k – $1M as these are typically the small business owners and these are typically the people that drive economic growth.
If you choke the small business owners you run the risk of choking out job creation.
1) Socialization of the Student Loan program.
2) Bailing out UAW pensions at the expense of bondholders.
3) Doubling medicaid from a current 500,000,000,000 to over 1,000,000,000,000 by 2017.
That is just my top three.
Kindly state any piece of legislation that Obama has put into effect since taking office that has had any sort of positive effect on the economy. No blaming bush, no generic answers like “healthcare reform” Please be specific and cite reputable sources for your information.
What has he done that I disagree with?
-promised total transparency in his administration and healthcare debate to be broadcast on cspan. Backroom deals galore..and on christmas eve?? Promises broken.
-jammed healthcare down our throats depsite an overwhelming majority against it. If that’s not bad enough, he flat out lied about the costs of said program all while himself and the senate conveniently legislated themselves EXEMPT FROM IT.
-Fin reg….really? Do i really need to explain what a travesty this bill is and why it will have the exact opposite effect as those stated by this administration? Please see my previous post about reforming the economy and refer to the first point about reinstating glass-steagall.
-Appointing a bunch of tax cheats and con men to his cabinet along with a bunch of uber liberals who will no doubt help to carry out his agenda. These people should be in prison, not in public offices.
-Destroyed any hopes of job creation in this country by gridlocking the system w/ uncertainty over taxes and healthcare costs. Who’s going to hire in this environment when they don’t know the future costs of staying in business.
-his policies have essentially divided this country and pitted both sides against each other.
Eliminate all Cabinet departments that were created since 1970. Those would be the thre Big E cabinet posts, Energy (1977-Carter), EPA )1970-Nixon), and Education (1979-Carter, again). There may be others but these three wood ticks are sucking the life out of the US and contribute very little in return.
Combine Agriculture and Interior departments, and reduce the combined staff by 1/3 to 1/2.
Devolve the public sector unions, including the postal workers union.
Libs will think this radical but re-evaluating everything that the Fed gov is doing is now in order so that we can avoid the debt crisis that is coming.
“Thanks to the coordinated and forceful actions of Congress, the Obama Administration, the Federal Reserve, the FDIC (Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation), and other regulatory agencies, the U.S. financial system is much stronger today than it was in the fall of 2008 and early 2009,” the report concluded.
Did they take a look at the time line on when the money was handed out and on what investments the profits were turned?
Yes, we can all agree that AIG was a bad idea in terms of the investment, but both the Bush and Obama administration are at fault on that one. However, if you look at the TARP program as a whole, the money was made by forcing the large financial institutions (JPM and Goldman) to take money while also extending money to those that needed it (CITI and BoA). These companies, larger FIs, have either fully repaid TARP plus interest or are in the process of paying the Government back via stock sell off (CITI). The decisions to given these institutions were made in the waning hours of the Bush administration.
The decisions to loan money to small banks and auto makers was done by the current administration. As it stands, the Federal Housing Refinancing Program and Auto maker bail outs are expected to lose some $60B collectively. Let us not forget that the current administration’s exit plan from AIG also includes a $22B loan from the Treasury to the FRBNY to buy out the FRBNY remaining in AIG, that if sold could paydown that $22B – let’s hope that Asia IPO goes well.
The only reason TARP will cost less than the $50B is because of the interest and equity positions established with the Big Financials. Yes they might be evil, but they are also making the government money and bailing out the TARP blunders of the current administration. Also, lets keep in mind, that these numbers also include a speculated $16B in profits coming from the sale of the Treasury’s 1.66B shares of AIG stock…
Sure, this element of the Wealth Redistribution plan of Obama/Reid/Pelosi has shown some positive results. But remember, an ‘element’ is but an infinitesimal part of any magnitude. That “magnitude” in the grand scheme is wealth redistribution and includes reduction of one of the foundations of the American primary tenets – Private Ownership of Property.
People like you haven’t a clue of real life but yet judge others cloaked in your veil of ignorance. The 5500 personnel of the USS Abraham Lincoln were at sea for 9 (nine) months straight and their mission WAS ACCOMPLISHED (they launched aircraft). It was the ship’s banner, not GWB’s but he had too much class and respect to comment. Real men know, though, the media doesn’t, nor do you.
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” – George Orwell
Whoa there… No one here is disrespecting the military or the crew of the AL.
However, that whole thing was spun off as “mission accomplished” for the whole Iraq war (a free Iraq). Which at the time wasn’t correct (since we are still there).
You are right though that media spun it a different way… the president mentioned that the war on TERROR wasn’t over – which was correct. Most of the media neglected that.
I have no doubt that the 5,500 crew accomplished their specific mission. It was the politicians that were spinning it a different way. Go to this website and see for yourself. I voted for G.W. but there is no doubt he was saying Iraq was a victory.
I was just using it as a comparison in my prior post… I also mentioned that Bush accomplished what he set out to do…
Also I served and I do consider myself a real man.
that reduced taxes stimulate hiring and economic growth is the grandest farce the aristocracy has drop on us.
Cut taxes on the rich and all the rich will do is pocket the difference.
Cut taxes on the lower/middle class, and spending will increase as they will either purchase the necessities that have been neglected (lower), or increase spending to improve living standards (middle).
Personally, I think that it is important to move away from a consumption based economy to a savings based economy – that would be the better way to get money into financial institutions (through saving instruments) and corporation (through stock purchases via 401K and IRAs etc.) so they can expand and invest in R&D).
Cass, my your are on a leftist roll. Your comments do confirm the undercurrent of the debate, government v the private sector.
As for TARP, there is no proving or disproving what would have occurred, but critical analysis is warranted. The fact that the “big boys” bounced back so quickly and repaid their loans should make everyone very very suspicious.
I was a bit amused by your tirade on consumer spending. The silence was deafening regarding gov spending. By the way, for those who think that savings over spending is the way to go, you might want to look at the bedrock Keynesian principle that gov MUST step in when the consumer quits spending and SPEND, SPEND, SPEND to balance things out.
The war defict is overblown. No one ever nets out what we would pay for the military absent the war. Its as if the military wouldn’t have existed without the war. And, the TRILLION dollar health bill and TRILLION dollar stimulus with TRILLION dollar deficits for as far as the eye can see are this admins responsibility. We jumped from BILLIONs in annual deficts to TRILLIONs and you can’t blame that jump on Bush.
Your notions on tax policy are all slanted by what appears to be a belief that wealth is static and the “pie” never grows or shrinks. That feeds your analysis that if one person gets rich, its at the expense of some other person. That is just not real world but it fits the class warfare paradigm and feeds the emotion of those who think they are trapped by dark forces in he proletariat class.
The tax cut issue is resolving itself and your position is losing, even among the class warriors in the Dem party who now have to sheepishly admit that money is needed in the private sector to spur job growth and grow their tax revenue pie. It is a left handed admission that the private sector feeds the public sector and that all money is not the property of the government to be dolled out as they see fit. And, please spare me the rhetoric of “tax cuts must be paid for”. That simply reinforces the idea that the government owns all the money in the first place. Deficts aren’t caused by the money you never received, unless, of course, again, you think it was the gov money to begin with.
Trade is something to look at and we are starting to bring jobs back. You might want to look into the new “onshoring” push that is happening. That is a good thing. We have learned that outsourcing leads to toxic toys and drywall along with a myriad of other health and service issues.
As for the wars, if you believe in protectionism and fortress America, then say so. If you believe we should disengage from the world and let people suffer endlessly under dictatorial rule, then have the backbone to admit it. If you use Viet Nam as the prism you view everything through then I want you to explain that to the 2,000,000 Cambodians and Vietnamese who lost their lives after the war ended. My perspective is that we must be engaged in the world to ensure that we don’t have to defend the fortress. I follow the Churchillian philosphy of “never feeding the alligator, hoping he’ll eat you last” philosophy of taking things head on and not waiting until death walks up your sidewalk.
And lastly, if you really want to affect the growing economic divide in this country, look to the failures of our education system as a prine causation factor. It needs to be fixed but not by succumbing to the cries for more money so the “children” won’t suffer. Accountability needs to be restore and decertifing the teacher’s unions is in order. By the way, why do we have public sector unions whose purpose is to negotiate with other government (politicians) workers at at the expense of the public (mostly private sector). That’s a debate for the future.
Keynes theorized out of a a different economic framework, and a new one is needed. Not that Keynes needs to be completely overthrown, but is in need of adjustment for a global economy (China and India weren’t much of a factor when he, or Galbraith, wrote; Africa could not be considered as the factor that it is now either).
Regarding government spending – depends on the spending. Domestic infrastructure spending should always be the priority. You know what happened to Rome when they let the roads and aqueducts decay.
I think that it is funny that while the prior administration plunged in to deficit spending, the right wrote off concerns of the deficit as a liberal stalking horse, but now with a different administration, it is a defining issue and being portrayed as a result of the current administration’s policies.
Make no mistake, government mis-spends. The military budget is a joke and the involvement in middle eastern wars is devasting with little benefit to come from them. It is laughable to think that those wars are responsible for the lack of terrorist attacks.
Karl, this is an old tactic of everybody does it, deficit spending that is. Well, its the magnitude, the economic times and the glaring example of the Euro collapse that has given this issue the attention it deserves.
You can’t resucitate the need to spend by bootstrapping it to the stimulus. You surely know by now that the spending on infrastruture was minimal and that the stimuli was to help prop us state and local gov deficts, aka, jobs along with a host of pork for academic grants (study of grapes etc) and other “pet” projects. Please recall that several months ago that this Pres rolled out yet another “shover ready” spending proposal for road, rail and airport construction, a tacit admission that the first one really lacked that aspect.
I find your foreign policy analysis a bit muddled. Why is it that we haven’t been attacked-its because we are ineffective in attacking those who would attack us. For my own edification, please correct my syllogistic analysis if you feel it misses the mark.
Lastly, your Roman analogy may need a bit of tweaking after you revisit the Roman’s loss of interest in its military strength and the consequences that resulted. I know well the lib montra is that we should get rid of the military so we can spend that money on US, but libs never think of the consequences of that philosophy until as I have stated before death walks up their sidewalk and knocks on THEIR door.
First off, please don’t elevate these comments as analysis or rigorous scholarship. This is just an interesting discussion that I am jumping into while doing insurance work.
Yes, I agree, intrastructure spending has been minimal and a great disappointment. But lay some of the blame on the current political climate and the obstructionist minority party.
Never suggested that we remove the military. Have a daughter in the army myself and I am very proud of her and all soldiers in all branches who have selflessly volunteered. But there is no question that the military budget is bloated and goes to profiteers more so than the soldiers (c’mon, isn’t it a disgrace that the soldiers can’t even get the armory they need to better protect themselves). Strategically speaking – there is no focus, and no clear objective to these missions. Money would have been better spent on intelligence and terrorist interdiction strategies. While it has been generally acknowledged that the military involvement has stimulated terrorist.
The middle eastern involvement has been a visceral response to hoffiric act. A tact that Obama has continued despite his campaign platform. I am willing to vote him out for that alone.
I appreciate your moderation and commententary. I do, however, want to point out that the USS Cole, the African Embassy bombings, the Khobar Towers, and, for that matter, the Beirut suicide bombing of the Marine barracks, are all antecedent to 911 and the numerous failed attacks since then. I think you may have missed the fact that this conflagration is far larger than just a few kooky misguided religious zealots. This is a clash of civilizations, not just a cultural dust up between a small group of people who don’t understand each other. This is the 21st Century reality coming to terms with 13th Century beliefs, with all the force of a tectonic shift. This is not a simple matter to be dispatched by a world wide police action. That is why we are engaged and why a strong military response and force is required. The whisltling sound of many likeminded people as they walk by the grave yards of past such mistakes is too loud for my confort.
Point two, the Repubs can’t currently obstruct anything as the Dems enjoy healthy majorities in both houses of Congress. It is a flight of fancy to believe otherwise, or maybe just pure rationalization to help soothe the hurt that this admins policies have inflicted.
I hope and pray your daughter remains safe and well. God speed to her and all her fellow service men and women. Now, back to work!
The prior terrorist attacks did not result in a similar US military response, and using your own examples, the lack of military response did not result in a deluge of terrorist attacks on US (some 15 years between Beirut and the Cole).
I did not miss the fact that this is not just some kooky extremist, but a clash of cultures. It is, in fact, a kooky, but dangerous minority. Casting this as a clash of cultures is part of the problem. So what would the resolution be in those terms: only one culture left standing when it is all done?
The beauty of the USA is its designed ability to incorporate and assimilate the varying cultures. being in the NYC area, I have known Muslims most of my adult life. They are not the enemy, terrorists are. I’ll even say that any county with theocratic aspirations or practice (Iran) is a potential threat as they are anathemic to the American way, and not very tolerant of governments based on a different system.
Republicans can, and have obstructed, initatives and reforms. Can’t just point to majorities in congress, as votes seldom go according to pary lines. And we know that members of either party can and do sell their votes (so to speak)
Karl, I can hear you whistling. You missed my nuanced point between culture and civilization. I agree there is a vast majority of Muslims in this country who are culturally assimulated but please don’t take that to mean that is sign that all is well between civilizations. This problem is pandemic and not easily brushed aside by anecdotal americanized examples of moderate Muslims.
This is far beyond a skirmish between the US and some terrorists.
I am sorry, but I can’t buy into the lack of response helped. The escalation and frequency of attacks argues against that strain of logic.
My last post-the call to work must be answered. Good Luck.
How truly refreshing to see a civilized exchange of ideas in these blogs. you two are to be congratulated.
Tom, despite the fact that your posts are so very well written, you seem to miss some of the points that both Karl and I sought to make.
In fact, I believe the costs of the two Middle Eastern wars were not put into the budget under the Bush admin. I think they are now being allocated (but I could be wrong) so your billions to trillions doesn’t necessarily hold water. Couple that with a world wide recession, begun under the former administration…and of course, Obama inherited trillions in deficit.
I agree totally that a lot of the ‘stimulus” that “trickled down” went to to shore up state governments so they could pay teachers and firemen. I disagree with spending this money as such because it only postponed the inevitable which is going to be ultimately confrontation with the public sector unions as the costs of the pensions and benefits are untenable, unwarranted, and unaffordable. I agree; I do not see why public service unions actually exist…especially for teachers who are allegedly “professionals” and therefore would not seem ripe material for unions.
I could not agree more about our educational system for which we get poor payback for the money spent. Ultimately, we will ruin ourselves over it.
Obviously, you and I look at the meaning of certain statistics very differently. The earning power of the middle class is being eroded. the deficits and conti nuing tax burden are part of it, so what is the big deal over continuing the middle class cuts while increasing the rates on those that make more? do you seriously think that Mrs. Walmart and her relatives, who are four or five out of the top ten wealthiest Anmericans are CREATING jobs? Her father’s company is creating jobs…she is sitting on her billions and clipping coupons…and at a capital gains rate of what…15%? I have to totally agree with Karl…cuts for the lower and middle classes get spent. To say the rich “create” jobs is just not correct per se. This is truly an “urban” myth. If you want to make allowances for self employed small business owners who file as Sub S or whatever it is, go ahead, but PLEASE let the wealthier start bearing more of the burden.
As for the military incursions, if, as you say…and which I believe, the current troubles with the middle east are civilizations clashing, 13 vs. 21st century, shouldn’t we look at the lessons of history? The contemporary civilization usually won by annihilating the older one either passively or actively. Unless you are willing to go for annihilation (which i am not) we are sending good lives after bad, as it were, because we will not be victorious. When the oppression is too grave, those affected will rise up or not… we cannot change this with limited military force we are willing to use. So, I see no reason to squander our treasure or children’s lives for no payback. And yeah, Viet Nam IS still relevant. I find it interesting that you are willing to spend tax money to be Big Bro\ther to the World, yet seem to draw a line at being your own fellow citizen’s “brothers keeper” in many ways.
Yeah, Tom, I DID read all about onshoring. Know why they call me Cassandra? Because I said this would happen five years ago when the managers got tired of traveling to Beijing and Hong Kong for maybe not so many happy endings, when WalMart recalled the toys loaded with heavy metal, when the food was tainted with melamine. Too bad some peoples lives were wrecked while the corporate wonks worked this one through. I have nothing but the greatest respect for the Chinese; they are an old and ancient civilization and they were playing the game before we even knew there was one. We will not be victorious now that the sleeping tiger has awakened.
Best we get our own house in order before we take on cleaning the houses of others.
Cass, at least your honest about waiting until the last minute to address a growing problem as it gives us time to devote to ourselves.
As far as wealth, the “paper” value of the Waltons is not liquid and sitting in a bank somewhere. Risk takers do create jobs with their money and one has to have money to take risks that lead to jobs, ask Bill Gates. The Waltons may be sitting on stock but a whole lot of other stockholders are also benefiting including those hundreds of thousands that are employed in this enterprise.
As far as the “middle” class fading to black, it only happens if you use statistical brackets and funny numbers. One would expect that the middle class has suffered in this great recession but I suspect that like the last recession, the number of people who slipped for the “upper class” down to the middle class is greater or equal to those who slid from middle to lower class. Some of the reasons for the erosion are” single unwed mothers, too many educated people seeking safe harbor jobs, like teaching, to try and avoid the stresses of a transitional economy etc etc. There are a plethora of reasons, nearly all of which have nothing to do with a vindictive and greedy “upper class”.
You might also check the IRS tables for how much of the income tax the top 1% and 5% pay and then tell me that it is fair. Just how much of the income tax should they pay? I think we would all be better off if we abided by the 10th commandment-“Thou shallt not covet thy neighbors goods” and spent our limited time working oon more critical social and economic issues.
If you really want to see a disolution of the middle class, wait for any hint of inflation to begin. The rate at which this gov spent money by printing it as fast as they can will have a deleterious effect on savings and erode middle class wealth more quickly than a California rainstorm after a brush fire. It is a pernicious monster that must not be let loose. However, some politicians see inflation as “good” since it allows them to pay back debt with dollars that are valued less than those they borrowed. Thus, another reason to be skeptical of the current political class.
Lastly, the great leveler in the clash is nuclear weapons and the desire, or lack thereof, to use them. That, and the quest for regional hegemony by the Persians, is what the Iranian bruhaha is all about. I guess we could ignore it, but we do so at grave risk.
I guess we do see the world through different lenses. It remains to be seen, who is right but since I lean a little to the right, I believe I am right and write they will in the future that he was right.
Yup, you are right…13th century social rules but 21st century weapons. So, as I see it, the problem is not really Afghanistan or Iraq, but in reality lour targets should have been Iran and Pakistan…
If they unleash, then we will go for annihilation, I suppose.
Looks like Nostradamas may have been a couple of decades off…
We can all be patting ourselves on the back and criticizing TARP now because the world financial system did NOT totally crash. Can any of you say that had TARP not existed we would not have sunk into a Depression a la 1930’s? Can you prove it?
The error was in not tacking enough conditions on the GoldmanSachs, who took our tax money via the AIG bailout and paid off debts to foreign creditors dollar for dollar, but yet were left free to pat themselves on the back at how successful they were. The govt should have been hovering a their shoulder leveraging those monies but did not. Goldman Sachs can pat themsleves about their profitis because we DID bail them out. The Bush and subsequently, the Obama admin should have gotten a LOT more leverage than what they got for all our money spent there. You tell me I am not allowed to engage in conspiracy theories, but I do have my opinions of why this occurred…(and the rich ARE different, my dears).
As for GM and Chrysler, do you all have any concept of how many jobs would have been lost had those two tanked? What the hell is wrong with you people…the Chinese subsidize their industry as do the Japanese and certainly the Europeans. Yeah, they blew it but we could not afford to let them fail either. Can you prove that the consequences of failure would not have caused another Great Depression?
How do you know? You are all Monday morning quarterbacking.
As for the economy, frankly, before this recession, I got tired of hearing that I had to CONSUME so as to stimulate the world’s economy…wasn’t that what we were doing? Weren’t we exhorted to spend, spend, spend by even President Bush? Maybe now we have wised up. Maybe now we all have to learn to do with less.
The deficit we have now is a result of two costly wars that may have well INCREASED our threat of terrorist attack. Iraq was a flat out mistake(admit it, it REALLY was). Afghanistan is a tar pit and will not end well (yes, call me Cassandra). Have we learned nothing from Viet Nam?
It is also caused by the Tax cuts on the upper classes. We have facts to prove the eroding income of the middle class. We allow every fool with a screed to be a not for profit. We allow every special interest group to have a tax loophole. We extract no consequence for domestic companies exporting our jobs. We extract no meaningful fines for businesses importing workers or hiring illegals.
We say we are “transitioning” into a service economy, but what does that really mean…low paying jobs for the majority with no benefits? No healthcare? No opportunity for higher education being priced out of the arena? All our necessary and strategic manufacturing outsourced to China? Our airlines purchasing european made planes that receive government subsidy so they can compete? If the economy is becoming global, what is to be our role in it…mere consumers..or adders of value? If so, where and how? How will we provide a better life for our children…or will we become resolved not to?
Where are the debates on the dwindling of the middle class? Of the increase in poverty? Of the impact of immigration? I would think that the Reagan/Bush tax cuts contribute to this erosion by stacking the deck. I predict that the country will continue to separate economically more and more if these trends are allowed to continue. And we fiddle while Topeka burns.
Where are the serious debates on these issues among our Congressmen if not ourselves?
No..better we call each other hateful names and label each other…another form of bread and circuses.
And the band played on…
\
What a bunch of worthless drivel. In the future, don’t call a blatant political talking point a report. It cheapens your profession.
Don’t you just hear the economy humming? What is wrong with you?
The economy is getting better! I know that people are still out of work, but many indicators are pointing in the right direction. It takes time to turn around an economy of this size. Hell, it takes time to turn around ‘your economy’ as a person.
Everyone is so mad right now due to the politics on both sides, they don’t want to hear anything but doom and gloom. Things are turning around.
YEs we are moving in the right direction and until the majority of our population, the back bone of our economy, can start to purhcase job growth and continued economy growth will be slow. Why would a small business borrow mony and hire if there is no one to purchase their goods?
We need to figure out how to increase the avergae income of our majority, it has decrease by 5% since 2000, that is a large part of our problem.
Kevin,
Agreed. We do need to get more money in the hands of the people who spend it. On movies, restaurants, cars, etc. The money will always head to the top, but starting more of it at the bottom is going to help tremendously.
Are you kidding me? There is a simple way to get money in the hands of people who will spend it. Reduce taxes! In additon to growing the economy tax revenue increses also. But that will never happen with liberal as that is how they get their power and fortune.
Great article! Umm… but too bad unemployment is still high.
All of this could have been avoided if the gov’t stayed out of it. Forcing banks to provide loans/mortgages to people who can’t afford it! Brilliant!!! (You can blame Carter for that). But it won’t help us to dwell on the past…
I think, in order for the gov’t to really pull us out of this recession, they need to lower taxes on the middle and lower income classes as well as small businesses, and scrap the health care bill (and start over with a new bill).
Maybe they could cut the gov’t emp salaries in half and then stay out of our business.
Create opportunity as opposed to creating welfare. Sounds good to me!
Geitner and the Fed congratulate themselves and pronounce a an A grade on the program, a program that lost between 50-100 Billion (projected). All while Goldman Sachs, which paid back their “loan” reported a 12 Billion dollar profit last year and are looking at 7 Billion this year. The recession, already the second longest in history, drags on despite that fact that the Feds state is was over last summer. And the improvement we are seeing is not the normal V shape that follows significant downturns. We are in a long U recovery which is partially the fault of TARP helping to extend the misery. And let’s not forget that Chrysler and GM still have a long way to go. The economy would have recovered, as it always does, Count me as skeptical, but the timing of this self congratulating announcement is more than a little politically suspect.
It’s the equivalent of Bush’s declaration of victory in Iraq aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln.
We all know how well that worked out for him.
The Obama and the Bush administration aren’t so different (for all you Bush bashers out there).
The only difference is that Bush accomplished what he set out to do (no more terrorist attacks on our soil). Obama still has a couple years left though… I am pulling for him! I hope he comes through on something!
NSS, my take is that he is a very nice man who had no experience doing anything and he has lived up to that resume. I wish him no ill will but his policies are destructive, both short term and long term. He may resemble a mis mash charictature of several President’s, that is why I see him morphing into Barack W. O’Carter. 2 years has been waaay to much and more than 4 years will put everyone on the waiting list for Prozac.
Lol!!! That is awesome. I agree with your analysis.
I think we are due for a great president… it has been too long.
If you are out there, please run in 2012. No one will be donating to your campaign because we are all broke… so please become friends with Bill Gates or any of the gov’t officials – they gotz tons of dough!
And what exactly is the current unemployment rate? I know the numbers that are reported every Thursday morning, the problem is, the large numbers of people who have exhausted their unemployment benefits are no longer counted.
I expect that a survey of everyone whose benefits expired within the past year would yield a significantly higher number than the current figure.
And then we can look at the lost home values attributable to short sales. The banks don’t lose because the government bails them out. The individual homeowners lose a significant portion of their net worth and now the towns and counties will lose because of a flood of assessment appeals driven by declining market values.
Ok so if Bush’s TARP was so great why is the media praising it, and Obama Administration taking so much credit for it?
I am confussed by the media, why don’t they give credit to Bush? Oh! thats right, everything that Bush did was bad.
Sarah… yes Bush is to blame. But so is Obama.
As much as you may hate Bush (probably because CNN/NBC told you to), he did keep us safe from further attacks.
I’m not a big fan of Bush… but that is the one thing he got right.
If you want to blame the real culpret… blame Carter. He signed the bill requiring banks to provide sub prime mortgages. This was the seed that started it all.
Sarah, it is political silly season where the politicos think we are all too dumb to get it. Want proof, look only to Calif where the debate is focused on an admitted illegal who is playing the emotional martyr role for having falsely obtained a job which paid $23 an hour, and who when challenged about her immig status is fired and then sues for back pay and MILEAGE. This is occupying Californians political attention all while Rome is burning. I guess they are used to the sight of flames and the smell of smoke so it seems the Santa Ana winds of change will be ignored and Calif will become Greece, redux.
Yeah this economy is getting better, RIGHT?
I dont know about you but I drive around and see empty commercial buildings with for lease signs and business still laying off workers. 3M just yesterday stated they were stoping payments for retired workers health coverage in 2012 due directly to the new healthcare law passed.
Watching the media this outlet included or Obama and Biden tell us that the stimulas is working is like the man who gets caught with another woman and says,”Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes”. After a while you stop believing anything they say because they statements in the past have been so unbelievable.
When the congress comes back into session to take up tax policy. No matter who is debating, This one item is fact and not debateable.
RICH PEOPLE HIRE PEOPLE! THE MIDDLE CLASS AND POOR PEOPLE DO NOT HIRE ANYONE!
Remember that, when they talk about taxing the rich. IT COULD MEAN YOUR JOB!
Really, the very people who screamed the house is on fire and told only half truths are now saying this!!!! This is about as funny as when the Russians said they were a truly free society!!! Idiots!
The Dems forgot that the American dream is to try and get rich. Aspirations help drive all classes. If they make it a social stigma to chase that dream, then we are all left with only the incentive they seek, to work mindlessly to fill the government coffers so they can distribute to those “in need”.
As of unemployment, this Friday will be the last report before the election and the projections are that it will rise by 1.2.tenths. This means that unemployment will be around 9.8%, with the real rate, including those who dropped off the roles and quit looking at around 16%. Now is that the “change” that we were looking for???
-Reinstate Glass-Steagall and put an end to speculation in the energy markets. Watch the price of oil/gas/consumer goods drop, putting more income in peoples pockets (providing they are employed)
-Quit it with this BS Quantitative easing. Helicopter Ben is only making things worse by flooding the market with more “liquidity” All its doing is making the uber rich, richer while decreasing the purchasing power of the dollar and spiking commodities prices. Besides…i thought the recession ended in 2009? If that were the case, why do we need QE2?
-Do not let any bush tax cuts expire. The last thing anyone needs at this stage of the game (and I used game intentionally b/c that’s exactly how this admin views this economy)is tax increases.
-Cut the size of the federal govt in half, then when you’re done, do it again.
-Want unemployment benefits or welfare? Pass a drug test first.
-Quit rewarding failure and punishing success. Get the damn government out of our lives PERIOD!
-Vote out all incumbents. Its the first and likely most important step to taking back our country and getting back on the road to recovery.
-Throw that fruit Bwaney Fwank in prison along with Dodd and 90% of the current idiots in washington. That goes for both parties. Let the housing market correct on its own. It will be painful but its better than the govt propping it up and delaying the inevitable.
Lets face it. The Tarp was a complete and total failure. It was a massive fraud/bailout of the same idiots that got us into this mess to begin with. It hurt main street and will for years to come. I don’t believe for one minute that the cost of this will be anywhere near where they estimate. Furthmore, if it cost taxpayers one penny, it was too much.
I could go on and on about this.
The Joker….not a fan of the government or liberals who are too ignorant to learn from history.
Please list and briefly describe Obama actions and policies with which you disagree. Be specific in your response. No points will be awarded for generalities about his beliefs, or comparison with historical scourges. Unsubstantiated claims about his heritage or religion may result in disqualification of your answer.
Not So Sure –
You should go take a look at the IRS website’s tax figures about the people who are paying the taxes in this country. As of 2008, the top 3.2% of the population paid more than 50% of the tax bill. The top 12.9% paid over 75%. (http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html)
The issue has nothing to do with reducing the taxes on the lower and middle classes as they have no responsibility for taxes anyways. Claiming the reduction in taxes for a portion of society that pays very little to begin with is the wrong approach. It’s an elitist point of view but the best approach might be reduction in the taxes of the income band of $250k – $1M as these are typically the small business owners and these are typically the people that drive economic growth.
If you choke the small business owners you run the risk of choking out job creation.
1) Socialization of the Student Loan program.
2) Bailing out UAW pensions at the expense of bondholders.
3) Doubling medicaid from a current 500,000,000,000 to over 1,000,000,000,000 by 2017.
That is just my top three.
Dear “youngin”
Kindly state any piece of legislation that Obama has put into effect since taking office that has had any sort of positive effect on the economy. No blaming bush, no generic answers like “healthcare reform” Please be specific and cite reputable sources for your information.
What has he done that I disagree with?
-promised total transparency in his administration and healthcare debate to be broadcast on cspan. Backroom deals galore..and on christmas eve?? Promises broken.
-jammed healthcare down our throats depsite an overwhelming majority against it. If that’s not bad enough, he flat out lied about the costs of said program all while himself and the senate conveniently legislated themselves EXEMPT FROM IT.
-Fin reg….really? Do i really need to explain what a travesty this bill is and why it will have the exact opposite effect as those stated by this administration? Please see my previous post about reforming the economy and refer to the first point about reinstating glass-steagall.
-Appointing a bunch of tax cheats and con men to his cabinet along with a bunch of uber liberals who will no doubt help to carry out his agenda. These people should be in prison, not in public offices.
-Destroyed any hopes of job creation in this country by gridlocking the system w/ uncertainty over taxes and healthcare costs. Who’s going to hire in this environment when they don’t know the future costs of staying in business.
-his policies have essentially divided this country and pitted both sides against each other.
Care to address my question now?
I agree with you… do more for the small business owners and reduce taxes for all including the rich.
Thank you for the facts… you are right.
(I was just trying to give the left a little something)
Here are a couple other idess.
Freeze government spending at 2006 levels
Pass a balanced budget amendment
Eliminate all Cabinet departments that were created since 1970. Those would be the thre Big E cabinet posts, Energy (1977-Carter), EPA )1970-Nixon), and Education (1979-Carter, again). There may be others but these three wood ticks are sucking the life out of the US and contribute very little in return.
Combine Agriculture and Interior departments, and reduce the combined staff by 1/3 to 1/2.
Devolve the public sector unions, including the postal workers union.
Libs will think this radical but re-evaluating everything that the Fed gov is doing is now in order so that we can avoid the debt crisis that is coming.
Tom:
Some great ideas. Do you get the feeling the comments section of this site is more qualified to run the country that the current empty suit?
“Thanks to the coordinated and forceful actions of Congress, the Obama Administration, the Federal Reserve, the FDIC (Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation), and other regulatory agencies, the U.S. financial system is much stronger today than it was in the fall of 2008 and early 2009,” the report concluded.
Did they take a look at the time line on when the money was handed out and on what investments the profits were turned?
Yes, we can all agree that AIG was a bad idea in terms of the investment, but both the Bush and Obama administration are at fault on that one. However, if you look at the TARP program as a whole, the money was made by forcing the large financial institutions (JPM and Goldman) to take money while also extending money to those that needed it (CITI and BoA). These companies, larger FIs, have either fully repaid TARP plus interest or are in the process of paying the Government back via stock sell off (CITI). The decisions to given these institutions were made in the waning hours of the Bush administration.
The decisions to loan money to small banks and auto makers was done by the current administration. As it stands, the Federal Housing Refinancing Program and Auto maker bail outs are expected to lose some $60B collectively. Let us not forget that the current administration’s exit plan from AIG also includes a $22B loan from the Treasury to the FRBNY to buy out the FRBNY remaining in AIG, that if sold could paydown that $22B – let’s hope that Asia IPO goes well.
The only reason TARP will cost less than the $50B is because of the interest and equity positions established with the Big Financials. Yes they might be evil, but they are also making the government money and bailing out the TARP blunders of the current administration. Also, lets keep in mind, that these numbers also include a speculated $16B in profits coming from the sale of the Treasury’s 1.66B shares of AIG stock…
IJ thanks for the political spin.
Sure, this element of the Wealth Redistribution plan of Obama/Reid/Pelosi has shown some positive results. But remember, an ‘element’ is but an infinitesimal part of any magnitude. That “magnitude” in the grand scheme is wealth redistribution and includes reduction of one of the foundations of the American primary tenets – Private Ownership of Property.
Joker, Vlad, thank you.
Anon, no points are awarded for conspiracy theories.
People like you haven’t a clue of real life but yet judge others cloaked in your veil of ignorance. The 5500 personnel of the USS Abraham Lincoln were at sea for 9 (nine) months straight and their mission WAS ACCOMPLISHED (they launched aircraft). It was the ship’s banner, not GWB’s but he had too much class and respect to comment. Real men know, though, the media doesn’t, nor do you.
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” – George Orwell
Whoa there… No one here is disrespecting the military or the crew of the AL.
However, that whole thing was spun off as “mission accomplished” for the whole Iraq war (a free Iraq). Which at the time wasn’t correct (since we are still there).
You are right though that media spun it a different way… the president mentioned that the war on TERROR wasn’t over – which was correct. Most of the media neglected that.
I have no doubt that the 5,500 crew accomplished their specific mission. It was the politicians that were spinning it a different way. Go to this website and see for yourself. I voted for G.W. but there is no doubt he was saying Iraq was a victory.
I was just using it as a comparison in my prior post… I also mentioned that Bush accomplished what he set out to do…
Also I served and I do consider myself a real man.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A2627-2003May1
that reduced taxes stimulate hiring and economic growth is the grandest farce the aristocracy has drop on us.
Cut taxes on the rich and all the rich will do is pocket the difference.
Cut taxes on the lower/middle class, and spending will increase as they will either purchase the necessities that have been neglected (lower), or increase spending to improve living standards (middle).
Personally, I think that it is important to move away from a consumption based economy to a savings based economy – that would be the better way to get money into financial institutions (through saving instruments) and corporation (through stock purchases via 401K and IRAs etc.) so they can expand and invest in R&D).
Cass, my your are on a leftist roll. Your comments do confirm the undercurrent of the debate, government v the private sector.
As for TARP, there is no proving or disproving what would have occurred, but critical analysis is warranted. The fact that the “big boys” bounced back so quickly and repaid their loans should make everyone very very suspicious.
I was a bit amused by your tirade on consumer spending. The silence was deafening regarding gov spending. By the way, for those who think that savings over spending is the way to go, you might want to look at the bedrock Keynesian principle that gov MUST step in when the consumer quits spending and SPEND, SPEND, SPEND to balance things out.
The war defict is overblown. No one ever nets out what we would pay for the military absent the war. Its as if the military wouldn’t have existed without the war. And, the TRILLION dollar health bill and TRILLION dollar stimulus with TRILLION dollar deficits for as far as the eye can see are this admins responsibility. We jumped from BILLIONs in annual deficts to TRILLIONs and you can’t blame that jump on Bush.
Your notions on tax policy are all slanted by what appears to be a belief that wealth is static and the “pie” never grows or shrinks. That feeds your analysis that if one person gets rich, its at the expense of some other person. That is just not real world but it fits the class warfare paradigm and feeds the emotion of those who think they are trapped by dark forces in he proletariat class.
The tax cut issue is resolving itself and your position is losing, even among the class warriors in the Dem party who now have to sheepishly admit that money is needed in the private sector to spur job growth and grow their tax revenue pie. It is a left handed admission that the private sector feeds the public sector and that all money is not the property of the government to be dolled out as they see fit. And, please spare me the rhetoric of “tax cuts must be paid for”. That simply reinforces the idea that the government owns all the money in the first place. Deficts aren’t caused by the money you never received, unless, of course, again, you think it was the gov money to begin with.
Trade is something to look at and we are starting to bring jobs back. You might want to look into the new “onshoring” push that is happening. That is a good thing. We have learned that outsourcing leads to toxic toys and drywall along with a myriad of other health and service issues.
As for the wars, if you believe in protectionism and fortress America, then say so. If you believe we should disengage from the world and let people suffer endlessly under dictatorial rule, then have the backbone to admit it. If you use Viet Nam as the prism you view everything through then I want you to explain that to the 2,000,000 Cambodians and Vietnamese who lost their lives after the war ended. My perspective is that we must be engaged in the world to ensure that we don’t have to defend the fortress. I follow the Churchillian philosphy of “never feeding the alligator, hoping he’ll eat you last” philosophy of taking things head on and not waiting until death walks up your sidewalk.
And lastly, if you really want to affect the growing economic divide in this country, look to the failures of our education system as a prine causation factor. It needs to be fixed but not by succumbing to the cries for more money so the “children” won’t suffer. Accountability needs to be restore and decertifing the teacher’s unions is in order. By the way, why do we have public sector unions whose purpose is to negotiate with other government (politicians) workers at at the expense of the public (mostly private sector). That’s a debate for the future.
Keynes theorized out of a a different economic framework, and a new one is needed. Not that Keynes needs to be completely overthrown, but is in need of adjustment for a global economy (China and India weren’t much of a factor when he, or Galbraith, wrote; Africa could not be considered as the factor that it is now either).
Regarding government spending – depends on the spending. Domestic infrastructure spending should always be the priority. You know what happened to Rome when they let the roads and aqueducts decay.
I think that it is funny that while the prior administration plunged in to deficit spending, the right wrote off concerns of the deficit as a liberal stalking horse, but now with a different administration, it is a defining issue and being portrayed as a result of the current administration’s policies.
Make no mistake, government mis-spends. The military budget is a joke and the involvement in middle eastern wars is devasting with little benefit to come from them. It is laughable to think that those wars are responsible for the lack of terrorist attacks.
Karl, this is an old tactic of everybody does it, deficit spending that is. Well, its the magnitude, the economic times and the glaring example of the Euro collapse that has given this issue the attention it deserves.
You can’t resucitate the need to spend by bootstrapping it to the stimulus. You surely know by now that the spending on infrastruture was minimal and that the stimuli was to help prop us state and local gov deficts, aka, jobs along with a host of pork for academic grants (study of grapes etc) and other “pet” projects. Please recall that several months ago that this Pres rolled out yet another “shover ready” spending proposal for road, rail and airport construction, a tacit admission that the first one really lacked that aspect.
I find your foreign policy analysis a bit muddled. Why is it that we haven’t been attacked-its because we are ineffective in attacking those who would attack us. For my own edification, please correct my syllogistic analysis if you feel it misses the mark.
Lastly, your Roman analogy may need a bit of tweaking after you revisit the Roman’s loss of interest in its military strength and the consequences that resulted. I know well the lib montra is that we should get rid of the military so we can spend that money on US, but libs never think of the consequences of that philosophy until as I have stated before death walks up their sidewalk and knocks on THEIR door.
First off, please don’t elevate these comments as analysis or rigorous scholarship. This is just an interesting discussion that I am jumping into while doing insurance work.
Yes, I agree, intrastructure spending has been minimal and a great disappointment. But lay some of the blame on the current political climate and the obstructionist minority party.
Never suggested that we remove the military. Have a daughter in the army myself and I am very proud of her and all soldiers in all branches who have selflessly volunteered. But there is no question that the military budget is bloated and goes to profiteers more so than the soldiers (c’mon, isn’t it a disgrace that the soldiers can’t even get the armory they need to better protect themselves). Strategically speaking – there is no focus, and no clear objective to these missions. Money would have been better spent on intelligence and terrorist interdiction strategies. While it has been generally acknowledged that the military involvement has stimulated terrorist.
The middle eastern involvement has been a visceral response to hoffiric act. A tact that Obama has continued despite his campaign platform. I am willing to vote him out for that alone.
Karl, same here, working that is.
I appreciate your moderation and commententary. I do, however, want to point out that the USS Cole, the African Embassy bombings, the Khobar Towers, and, for that matter, the Beirut suicide bombing of the Marine barracks, are all antecedent to 911 and the numerous failed attacks since then. I think you may have missed the fact that this conflagration is far larger than just a few kooky misguided religious zealots. This is a clash of civilizations, not just a cultural dust up between a small group of people who don’t understand each other. This is the 21st Century reality coming to terms with 13th Century beliefs, with all the force of a tectonic shift. This is not a simple matter to be dispatched by a world wide police action. That is why we are engaged and why a strong military response and force is required. The whisltling sound of many likeminded people as they walk by the grave yards of past such mistakes is too loud for my confort.
Point two, the Repubs can’t currently obstruct anything as the Dems enjoy healthy majorities in both houses of Congress. It is a flight of fancy to believe otherwise, or maybe just pure rationalization to help soothe the hurt that this admins policies have inflicted.
I hope and pray your daughter remains safe and well. God speed to her and all her fellow service men and women. Now, back to work!
Last comments:
The prior terrorist attacks did not result in a similar US military response, and using your own examples, the lack of military response did not result in a deluge of terrorist attacks on US (some 15 years between Beirut and the Cole).
I did not miss the fact that this is not just some kooky extremist, but a clash of cultures. It is, in fact, a kooky, but dangerous minority. Casting this as a clash of cultures is part of the problem. So what would the resolution be in those terms: only one culture left standing when it is all done?
The beauty of the USA is its designed ability to incorporate and assimilate the varying cultures. being in the NYC area, I have known Muslims most of my adult life. They are not the enemy, terrorists are. I’ll even say that any county with theocratic aspirations or practice (Iran) is a potential threat as they are anathemic to the American way, and not very tolerant of governments based on a different system.
Republicans can, and have obstructed, initatives and reforms. Can’t just point to majorities in congress, as votes seldom go according to pary lines. And we know that members of either party can and do sell their votes (so to speak)
Thanks for the well wishes.
Now back to work
Karl, I can hear you whistling. You missed my nuanced point between culture and civilization. I agree there is a vast majority of Muslims in this country who are culturally assimulated but please don’t take that to mean that is sign that all is well between civilizations. This problem is pandemic and not easily brushed aside by anecdotal americanized examples of moderate Muslims.
This is far beyond a skirmish between the US and some terrorists.
I am sorry, but I can’t buy into the lack of response helped. The escalation and frequency of attacks argues against that strain of logic.
My last post-the call to work must be answered. Good Luck.
How truly refreshing to see a civilized exchange of ideas in these blogs. you two are to be congratulated.
Tom, despite the fact that your posts are so very well written, you seem to miss some of the points that both Karl and I sought to make.
In fact, I believe the costs of the two Middle Eastern wars were not put into the budget under the Bush admin. I think they are now being allocated (but I could be wrong) so your billions to trillions doesn’t necessarily hold water. Couple that with a world wide recession, begun under the former administration…and of course, Obama inherited trillions in deficit.
I agree totally that a lot of the ‘stimulus” that “trickled down” went to to shore up state governments so they could pay teachers and firemen. I disagree with spending this money as such because it only postponed the inevitable which is going to be ultimately confrontation with the public sector unions as the costs of the pensions and benefits are untenable, unwarranted, and unaffordable. I agree; I do not see why public service unions actually exist…especially for teachers who are allegedly “professionals” and therefore would not seem ripe material for unions.
I could not agree more about our educational system for which we get poor payback for the money spent. Ultimately, we will ruin ourselves over it.
Obviously, you and I look at the meaning of certain statistics very differently. The earning power of the middle class is being eroded. the deficits and conti nuing tax burden are part of it, so what is the big deal over continuing the middle class cuts while increasing the rates on those that make more? do you seriously think that Mrs. Walmart and her relatives, who are four or five out of the top ten wealthiest Anmericans are CREATING jobs? Her father’s company is creating jobs…she is sitting on her billions and clipping coupons…and at a capital gains rate of what…15%? I have to totally agree with Karl…cuts for the lower and middle classes get spent. To say the rich “create” jobs is just not correct per se. This is truly an “urban” myth. If you want to make allowances for self employed small business owners who file as Sub S or whatever it is, go ahead, but PLEASE let the wealthier start bearing more of the burden.
As for the military incursions, if, as you say…and which I believe, the current troubles with the middle east are civilizations clashing, 13 vs. 21st century, shouldn’t we look at the lessons of history? The contemporary civilization usually won by annihilating the older one either passively or actively. Unless you are willing to go for annihilation (which i am not) we are sending good lives after bad, as it were, because we will not be victorious. When the oppression is too grave, those affected will rise up or not… we cannot change this with limited military force we are willing to use. So, I see no reason to squander our treasure or children’s lives for no payback. And yeah, Viet Nam IS still relevant. I find it interesting that you are willing to spend tax money to be Big Bro\ther to the World, yet seem to draw a line at being your own fellow citizen’s “brothers keeper” in many ways.
Yeah, Tom, I DID read all about onshoring. Know why they call me Cassandra? Because I said this would happen five years ago when the managers got tired of traveling to Beijing and Hong Kong for maybe not so many happy endings, when WalMart recalled the toys loaded with heavy metal, when the food was tainted with melamine. Too bad some peoples lives were wrecked while the corporate wonks worked this one through. I have nothing but the greatest respect for the Chinese; they are an old and ancient civilization and they were playing the game before we even knew there was one. We will not be victorious now that the sleeping tiger has awakened.
Best we get our own house in order before we take on cleaning the houses of others.
Cass, at least your honest about waiting until the last minute to address a growing problem as it gives us time to devote to ourselves.
As far as wealth, the “paper” value of the Waltons is not liquid and sitting in a bank somewhere. Risk takers do create jobs with their money and one has to have money to take risks that lead to jobs, ask Bill Gates. The Waltons may be sitting on stock but a whole lot of other stockholders are also benefiting including those hundreds of thousands that are employed in this enterprise.
As far as the “middle” class fading to black, it only happens if you use statistical brackets and funny numbers. One would expect that the middle class has suffered in this great recession but I suspect that like the last recession, the number of people who slipped for the “upper class” down to the middle class is greater or equal to those who slid from middle to lower class. Some of the reasons for the erosion are” single unwed mothers, too many educated people seeking safe harbor jobs, like teaching, to try and avoid the stresses of a transitional economy etc etc. There are a plethora of reasons, nearly all of which have nothing to do with a vindictive and greedy “upper class”.
You might also check the IRS tables for how much of the income tax the top 1% and 5% pay and then tell me that it is fair. Just how much of the income tax should they pay? I think we would all be better off if we abided by the 10th commandment-“Thou shallt not covet thy neighbors goods” and spent our limited time working oon more critical social and economic issues.
If you really want to see a disolution of the middle class, wait for any hint of inflation to begin. The rate at which this gov spent money by printing it as fast as they can will have a deleterious effect on savings and erode middle class wealth more quickly than a California rainstorm after a brush fire. It is a pernicious monster that must not be let loose. However, some politicians see inflation as “good” since it allows them to pay back debt with dollars that are valued less than those they borrowed. Thus, another reason to be skeptical of the current political class.
Lastly, the great leveler in the clash is nuclear weapons and the desire, or lack thereof, to use them. That, and the quest for regional hegemony by the Persians, is what the Iranian bruhaha is all about. I guess we could ignore it, but we do so at grave risk.
I guess we do see the world through different lenses. It remains to be seen, who is right but since I lean a little to the right, I believe I am right and write they will in the future that he was right.
Thanks for the point-counter point.
Yup, you are right…13th century social rules but 21st century weapons. So, as I see it, the problem is not really Afghanistan or Iraq, but in reality lour targets should have been Iran and Pakistan…
If they unleash, then we will go for annihilation, I suppose.
Looks like Nostradamas may have been a couple of decades off…