Obamacare is the biggest lie in the history of the United States. A bill that was written behind closed doors that wants to destroy one sixth of the U.S. economy and put more people out of work. Last week the Obama administration announced the new surprise that Obamacare was funded behind closed doors and was placed into the bill with $105 BILLION that we don’t have to fund this law.
Obama should be IMPEACHED ! We impeach Bill Clinton who just had sex with a willing, unattractive female aid and look at all the nonsense he went through. But you let this idiot Obama ruin our country.
The one concrete fact I know is wrong is that we impeached Bill Clinton. He got voted out of office by Bush, and we all know how wonderfully he left this counrty.
The rest of your closed-door figures are now suspect, good job. Like Abraham Lincoln once said “90% of all statistics you read on the internet are false”.
Gee Tom. I guess the gist of the article, millions of your fellow Americans have to go without decent healthcare and coverage for medical necessities, made no impact on you. Instead you jump right into attack mode. I would say the big lie occured when Republicans controlled the house, senate, and the Presidency. The healthcare system was not addressed back then. Maybe not as much a lie as it was a sin of omission. Your Michelle Bachman $105 billion secret is also a farce. First of all, how does one keep such a sum a secret? But the truth is that much, if not all, of that money was well known before Congress voted on the bill — a fact that drew the wrath of Bachmann’s colleagues, including Sen. Thad Cochran, the ranking REPUBLICAN on the Senate Appropriations Committee. Tom, nobody in Washington wants to destroy the economy. True, many are dictated by special interests. But, there are some, like Bachman, who continue to toot their own agenda without getting the facts. Meanwhile, good people like those discussed in this article suffer.
D, you accuse Tom of jumping into attack mode, but you were quick to get defensive. Just pointing that out.
Personally, I believe you are spot on (I agree) when you said that the health care system was not addressed by the former administration, but should have been (that was implied I assume).
However, doing something regardless of if it wrong or right does not win browny points. What this administrative is doing is not noble or helping the problem (I belive). I am not going to give Barry and his congress a good ol pat on the back just because he is “trying”. I pay taxes so that my gov’t does what is right.
This blame game doesn’t get us anywhere though. It would just really be nice to see politicians put us first for once (that goes for both sides of the aisle).
I agree with what you say. Another thing that should occur is that the people (Rep and Dem alike) in Washington need to be on Health plans and wages like the rest of us…. If you are no longer working in Congress, House, Senate…whatever, you no longer get a paycheck and if you want to stay on the health plan, you buy COBRA like the rest of us.
D, do you really think that something can’t be hidden in a 2,700 page bill. Think about the parlimentary rules used to pass it and all the other issues, including the 1,000 waivers HHS has granted to unions, favorred corps, and insurers.
I will grant you that nobody in DC may want to destroy the economy but whether it is by design or incompetence, the result is still the same.
I have no problem with rating insurance premiums based on family size, age, weight, smoking history, etc., but would forbid the stupidity of grouping people based on where they work. I am guessing that the insurance folks have all kinds of studies that show dramatic differences by size of “rating group”, etc. but my take is that it is merely a way to compensate a salesman or brokerage for bringing in the business.
Choose any demographic you want to decide the premium, but employment of if employed should be off limits in ANY decision regarding insurance. This type of blatant abuse has given us a complex and government-run health insurance system now — I guess you could say that the private insurance companies who will be driven out of business stubbornly committed suicide. Hope you insurance company shareholders like your investment going to zero along with the insult of stunningly massive golden parachutes for those executives who destroyed your companies with greed.
Thanks for making it easy for the government to put you out of business.
This just in… Apparently the recently unemployed who lost their health insurance still seem to have auto and homeowners/renters insurance. It seems that when insurance is not provided via employers, that they are able to purchase said insurance on a free-market with after-tax dollars at a competitive price, AND, keep said insurance even if they change jobs.
In an even new shocking story, Obama has just indicated he is going to force all insurance, including auto, homeowners, rental, life, etc. to only be available via an employer, AND, the government is also going to begin providing the same insurance for those people that do not have a job and cannot obtain insurance since it is only offered via employers. As America’s evaluate this new regulation, they decide to follow along like lemmings with the assumption that the government who regulates the insurance industry does not have a conflict of interest with a government that provides all insurance.
Annual auto premium one car: $1600.
Annual homeowner’s premium one house: $900.
Annual premium 50 somethings’ health insurance: $12,000.
Thank heavens for the Susan G. Komen Foundation who provides grants at various community hospitals for mammograms for those without access to affordable health insurance.
The Title of the Article is mis-leading. It implies unemployment as the reason for a decline, or an up-rating.
The new health law has increased premiums, and made child-only policies almost non-existent. I’m curious as to why insurancejournal.com published this with the given title?
Okay I know this is making me sound like a broken record but… what about the cost of healthcare??? When the heck is the gov’t going to tackle the actual issue?
Insurance is so expensive because health care is so expensive. I am sick of hearing that it is all the fault of the insurance industry – that is BULL!!!
Until we can find a way to stop doctors from over charging if someone has insurance or until we can find a way to cap damages on medical malpractice claims (among other issues) the problem will persist – regardless of who controls the insurance market (private or gov’t).
The current administration is misleading you… don’t be fooled!
You don’t understand how healthcare in America works (irony, huh). Doctors don’t get to overcharge patients who have insurance. They don’t even get to determine how much they charge for office visits, tests, etc. How it works in the system we are in is the insurance companies tell the doctor how much they are willing to reimburse them for an office visit, tests, etc.
You cannot gouge (overcharge) health insurance companies. That’s not how the system works.
I think you are confused. Doctors do not dictate to insurance companies what they get paid. Insurance companies dictate what the doctors will be reimbursed.
The article you linked to said it plain as can be:
“I was astounded weeks later when I got the bill: $534 (reduced to $363 under the doctor’s negotiated insurance rate).”
The doctor tried to bill the insurance company; the insurance company said “We only pay $363 for that procedure.”
Doctors don’t have the ability to set their compensation from insurance companies. Insurance companies tell doctors what they will reimburse them.
Correct… they don’t set their compensation for a particular procedure.
But how are we to know what they are and aren’t doing? After I go in for check up I get to see the bill that is sent to the insurance company. The doctor included a ton of stuff I could barely even understand – shouldn’t they just put on there “check up” $50?
They could say they did these 5 procedures when they really just did one. There is no accountability. It happens every day. I was just using that article as an example. There are a ton more – just google it.
March 16, 2011 at 1:58 pm
Observer says:
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The bigger the pot of money the bigger the grab for it. Medical costs are going to rise even further now that Obama-care is in place. Boutique practices are springing up now where a doctor’s practice will only accept new patients with an annual retainer fee and still charge their patient’s health insurance plan. Not long from now we will have the same two tier system that Europe has now – those that will be forced into clinics and poor medical service and those that can pay for the retainer and ‘luxury’ medical service. Good job everyone – it’s time that the industry take a hard look at itself and the result of PAC’s and lobbiest’s influence on this issue. You got what you paid for and the American public is going to have to dig deeper to pay for less than acceptable treatment.
The only reform that should have occurred but was blocked by the industry was to allow a consumer to purchase insurance from any insurer and anywhere in the country. The archaic method of insurance sold only “in” state should have been only thing pre-empted by the federal government. Competition would have leveled the pot of money and the cost of insurance.
If you want to check these claims out for your self go try to get health insurance and increase your weight and few other negative health hitory items…..”Denied”. Its fine with me but I’m healthy and have a job.
Scott, in the state where I live, as there is in most other states, there is aguaranteed insurer of last resort created by the state. So insurance is available to most people regardless of prior medical problems etc. The policy is not free and that may be where some of use see the divide.
If you don’t have a job, then paying for anything may be a problem. We can debate whether unemployment insurance should include a medical policy coverage but what employee would be willing to pay for that contigency and surely, no employer would.
I can’t say I agree with how health insurance companies are run, but they are run that way because they’re allowed to run that way. I think there are many industries that take advantage of people to the extent they’re allowed to, by regulation or competition.
I agree with many of you on both sides of the argument, but I think we can all agree, if underwriting profit is desired, this must happen. People in higher risk classes must be denied coverage. There just is no way to collect enough premium to offset the risk, and after all, one of the fundamentals of providing insurance at a PROFIT, is to know when to walk away from a losing proposition.
Maybe we should be asking the bigger questions… like do people have the RIGHT to purchase insurance? Or can a company deny coverage for any reason they see fit? ANY REASON THEY SEE FIT? After all it is their money…
There is enough blame to go around between hospitals, doctors, vendors, insurance companies and our wonderful Federal Government/Congress who has rammed this piece of terrible legislation upon us. Costs are skyrocketing with the uncertainty brought about by the legislation. Doctors are ordering numerous expensive tests for fear of being sued for malpractice due to improper treatment. This country is in a giant vortex and the taxpayers are being sucked into it. This is corruption personified.
D, the uninured cost about an additional 1.7% in insurance premiums due to cost shifting. Most catastrophic “uninsureds” have access to charity hospitals, chartibale foundations and other charitable entities who make up $40-$50 BILLION dollars per year, a figure which is left out of most analysis.
This country’s system of providing healthcare through insurance, charity, government has worked, maybe not ideally, but there was no reason to toss it out. It is a complex matter that needed focused change not 2,700 pages of bureaucratic nonsens.
When I was unemployed, I bought a catastrophic policy to protect my family with a $5,000 deductible. I found a policy that provided coverage and was affordable. Had I wanted to keep my low to no co-pay, high end policy, it would have been unaffordable based on my lack of a job.
I suspect this article takes the simple view using replacement of identical coverage which helps give this article the best possible negative spin.
I assume many of the “studied” subjects are overweight with medical conditions, and they CAN’T get coverage. Maybe our gov should do a better job of helping our citizens stay healthy so they don’t need doctors or medication for high blood pressure, diabetes etc..
Good thing you and your family were all healthy. Had you had any pre-existing conditions that were excludable, you might have been shocked to find that had you had a claim, it very well might have been denied, even with a catastrophic policy.
Pre-existing means a known condition, so why would I buy catastrophic “insurance” for a known condition. Most pre-ex policies exclude known conditions, I wanted coverage for those I didn’t know about. I am afrain you are mixing insurance and social policy together. I don’t buy insurance when my house is burning, since no one in their right mind would sell it to me.
States have mollified this concept health insurance but still allow insurers to charge premiums commensurate with risk.
Question – Why do we as a country continue to support an employers based private health insurance monopoly? Answer the question and you’ll understand in large part why we pay twice what the rest of the world pays for health care. Other countries that use private insurance heavily regulate the industry similar to how we regulate utilities.
I am frankly sick of hearing the strident yells about COSTS and impeachment, and the BIG LIE. the fact remains that many cannot afford or are excldued out of private health insurance, and thus, affordable and decent healthcare.
The Grand Old other party has had all the time in the world to come up with solutions, but the only solutions they have is to slash spending on programs that benefit the middle and working class. It is so much more gratifying to spread the poison, instigate class warfare, polarize the populace than man up and work for a solution…the Rove playbook still.
Where are the suggestions to close the tax loop holes for agribusiness? for the oil companies? for Wall Street protections? while the US may have a high corporate tax rate on the books, the incessant and egregious special interest loopholes make the effective tax rate ridiculously low.
And that is my answer; THAT is how we pay to extend healthcare/insurance to our many, many deserving and uninsured brethren.
Why do all we hear from the GOP is slassh, cut, repeal? Where is the flip side of this equation….more taxes from those that can and deserve to pay more? Why are millionaires protected by the very party platform, while the middle and working class gets things chipped away, and slashed, and repealed?
If there is to be class warfare in this country, I will tell you who started it; the true mean spiritedness and just plain snake meanness of some of the GOP and the Tea party candidates is now surfacing. We will see what happens to your “mandate” in 2012!
Bottom line… both parties are 100% at fault. To blame one over the other doesn’t make sense.
For us, the people, it is a battle of ideals.
However, the current administration is in the hot seat… so they are the ones to take the blame now. You can’t blame the former administration for Barry and the Senate’s mistakes.
Don’t forget Pelosi America. After all, she said they had to pass it so we could see what was in it. Now we see and we hate it more. D says how could we miss the 105 Billion in this bill for self funding? The way you do it is hide it among thousands of provisions. Legal scholars can’t understand this bill. The Demwit Progressives did this on purpose and behind closed doors in the middle of the night and forced a vote before anyone knew what was going on. The Blue Dogs walked the plank for her and Reid and now they are regretting it.
Watcher, you never cease to amaze me. The same rhetoric has propelled you into a religious trance.
I want you to look at the “green” susidies along with all the others you mentioned. Grants of billions of dollars for electric cars, windmills etc. Look at how much GE is slated to get from this. Look at a company like Whirlpool who now has so many “energy star” (appliance credits) tax credits that it will not pay 1 cent in taxes for at least the next 5 years. You really need to look at Demos and “crony capitalism” before you castigate repubs
And as usual, you want all this social spending done without regard to cost. You have never answered what % the “rich” should pay, just nebulous cries for more. I suspect the reason is that the rich should “give back” what they “don’t need”, a figure you will adjust later.
Face it, America has come to the realization that we can’t afford liberals anymore, and that reality is what drives you to the irrational assumption that we should provide covrage for all while also paying whatever it takes.
Watcher, I understand what you are saying but look at the political platform we have today? We have to do something even if it is the GOP!!! Or we all will have to learn how to speak Chinese!!
Watcher,
There is so much waste in our budget it is unbelievable. To say that the GOP proposed cuts are only to hurt the middle and working class is ridiculous. There is so much we don’t need. Do we need to spend billions on ethanol subsidies? NO! If the stuff won”t sell itself, get rid of it, it’s driving food prices higher, but the heck with the poor in theh world eating, just cut our greenhouse gases. Do we need to continue to finance the Arts when we are trillions in debt and millions can’t get health insurance, NO! Do we need to spend billions on trains when the trains in our country lose money and have to be subsidized like Amtrak? NO! Do we need to spend money on keeping NPR afloat? NO! I could go on and on. It all adds up Watcher. We are out of money, we need cuts and popular or unpopular, someone or some party has to propose real spending cuts. The Repubs propose 60 billion and get vilified by you. The Dems offer 6 billion, that is a drop in the bucket, take that and then pile on a lot more spending cuts on top and we will finally get somewhere.You can’t just do that 6 billion, though. It’s that plus the Repub cuts, plus more. No matter what, someone loses something, you can’t change that. We just need to get down to what we need to have versus what is a nice to have.
What Watcher/Cassandra will never get is that there is no more money to fund all the Progressive agenda they want to implement. The money is not there for school districts, cities, counties, states and the Federal Government. The era of big spending is over but wild eyed liberals are kicking and screaming. They are not very good with numbers. Our Federal Deficit is 1,600 Billion and they object to a measley $61 Bil off the non-budget of 2010. This government needs to be cut in half right away. We just cannot afford Progressive Liberalism.
It is a misrepresentation to say that many cannot afford or are excldued out of private health insurance, and thus, affordable and decent healthcare.
As a healthcare agent I found that each individual States provided decent, affordable sometimes free, programs for people in this category, usually in conjunction with Medicaid or through kids programs and/or spend down requirements.
The people who don’t have coverage are those unwilling to do what it takes to become insured including just filling out the paperwork. I really believe the healthcare bill is designed primary to get more people to pay for what we already have. Just like the governments plan to hire more IRS agents – get the deadbeat tax dodgers to start paying their share of existing government programs and share our pain.
This is just plain wrong. The idea that people are just too lazy to fill out paperwork is not just wrong, it’s disingenuous, and ignorant. Most of these free programs are nothing more than clinics and discount programs. For long-term care and catastrophic illness these programs are the equivalent of taking an aspirin for cancer. So to suggest that these programs are a viable alternative to full health coverage is deceptive, ignorant, and and just plain wrong.
You are right that there are a lot of deadbeats out there who are not paying into the system, but want all the benefits like free healthcare. The public unions want us to fund all their healtcare/pensions and don’t want to put any skin in the game. What they don’t get is the till is empty. School districts are laying off teachers and other employees. Cities, counties, state government is having to do the same thing because of budget problems. Our Federal Government certainly doesn’t get it that they have to do serious belt tightening. These Progressive Liberals in charge currently should be drummed out of office for the damage they have caused to our economy.
First, 43 million people did not lose their health insurance because of their job loss, the insured population in 2008 was 46 million people based on a study by the OMB. Oh, by the way that study was during the previous administration. Just like the national budget, the greatest costs in healthcare are the salaries of the people who are caring for you when in the hospital or clinic. Wages are a supply and demand problem and will continue to increase or decrease like the remaining naitional paycheck. More people going into healthcare jobs may reduce the cost, but people are over 55% of the budgets in hospitals and clinics. Now, after leaving the healthcare industry several years ago and having had a couple of health issues, I don’t really want the cheapest surgeon on the block nor do you. Generally, healthcare has attracted some of the brightest people in the country and I know them personally…I don’t want the doctor or nurse who is unable to read and write opening my chest for a little surgey. Heathcare is about 16% of our GDP and it may be at that level for a while. The reality is that what dems and pubs are arguing about more than anything is the method of payment. Everyday whether you pay for your healthcare or your employer pays your healthcare you are subsidizing both Medicare and Medicaid with your healthcare premiums. Medicare & Medicaid do not cover their actual costs, they are paying only about 50 cents on a dollar of service. The cost of your health insurance is covering much of the cost of these entitlement programs and will continue to do so. I look at it as a reverse tax that is hidden in the cost of all good and services provided in this country. Your premium dollars wherever they come from pay parts of all of the healthcare. Oh…by the way, that “free care” you are talking about is also about 3% of the bill as well. The insurance companies can only pay what is approved by Medicare. If a service is not covered by medicare, 99% of all health insurance polices will decline payment until medicare is paying for the same services. Until there is a control over compensation of the smart people who are your doctors and clinicians and nurses and technicians the cost of healthcare will be higher. If the incomes of these people begin to drop, your income will already have suffered. We are all part of the problem and need to get real. We cannot have the level of care we get without expecting to pay something significant for it. It appears to me that for now it is somewhere near about 16% of every dollar earned in America. Level the playing field and have everyone pay a percentage of the total income and then select which payment system you want. Competition will eliminate the systems are are ill prepared for the competition. Employer pays 7% of your total compensation and you pay 7% of total compensation and you pick your poison. The government (you & me) can pick up the other 2% and it will be taken care of. The illegals and others will also be paying their fair share as well. Each of us would scramble to find the smart guys first wouldn’t we. Today I have people in my office daily wanting to buy health insurance after they are already ill. The didn’t need insurance until they got sick. 95% of them are declined as they should be. Should they pay one month of premiums and have you support their chemo for lung cancer. On umemployment? You will pay your 7% and the government (you and me) will pay the difference. Where does the rubber hit the road. Until we all learn to control our use of the system and often excessive use the costs will continue to rise in any system. It is our problem, not the dems and pubs. Do you want the smart ones or dumbs ones serving you.
“The silver lining is that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act has already begun to bring relief to families,” Karen Davis added.
Obamacare is going to save us consumers…Yeah, right. I’ve never had an employer pay for any of my healthcare coverage over the years. I pay it all myself. And my insurance company just sent me a premium increase notice letter this week that plainly stated “due to the PPACA….”
I’ve got an idea: Let’s pass this bill so we can read it and understand what’s in it!
The insurance mechanism with its underwriters and brokers play a purely parasitic role in health insurance. The only sustainable model, one that will deliver healthcare without the parasitic 40% markup for non-healthcare expenses(taxes, fees, risk charges, unnecessary administrative overheads, corporate profits and lobbying expenses), is single-payer.
Spoken like a true Progressive Liberal believer Mr. V. Do you really think our wonderful Federal Government can administer Health Insurance efficiently? Name a Federal Program which they do well. There is so much waste, fraud, duplication, corruption that it ends up costing the taxpayer double or triple the original estimate. Why do you think this country is running a deficit of 1,600 Billion this year? It is because politicians have created massive spending bills and bureaucracy including Ocare/Cronycare which is totally unsustainable. It is also going to lead to rationing of care which will deny services to millions of Americans. What should have happened is the creation of Pools for the Citizens who have had trouble finding coverage, real tort reform and allowing insurance to be sold across state lines to create more competition. That would have kept the costs down and been much less expensive to the nation as a whole.
Rising health premiums…the blame goes round and round. Yet the answer is perfectly clear to anyone who can leave politics and/or old paradigm thinking out of the equation. The risk pools are shrinking. That’s what happens when 25 million people leave/are forced from/can no longer afford private insurance.
The less people in the risk pool the higher the premium. Period. Those that believe health insurance should be private will reap what you sow…..the cycle will continue until no one but the wealthiest in society can afford health care insurance. What will middle-class private insurance advocates do then?
Mr. V. I suppose you think that there isn’t 40% of waste in a single payer. Let me think, just this week CMS admitted that a “software error” caused them to overpay for Viagra by nearly $4 Million dollars. You might want to pour yourself a stiff one.
My friend just had four ultra-sounds done; one on each hand, one on each foot. Total cost: $19,000!
Crazy!
Thank heavens for health insurance provided by the former employer!
MP, again, health provider costs need to be addressed and Ocare does not of that. It’s just that simple. The cost of insurance is just the tip of the iceberg but it has wipped up the frothing libs as it invokes the image of a “big corporation”. We all know how that mention produces the Pavlovian response.
This gravy train must stop. Medicare, medicaid fraud and abuse is symptomatic of what has gone on for years. Politicians don’t have the courage or smarts to take on the fraud & abuse problem. Hospitals, doctors and vendors have been and are continuing to game the system. The crooks need to be caught, prosecuted and put in prison for what they are doing. Many estimates are between 5-100 Bil per year is pure waste and fraud.
The republicans answer for Health Insurance was to have HSA accounts and keep paying high premiums which most unemployed or even employeed families have difficuly paying. All they care about is business making money or union busting and destroying the middle class.
There answer is only the rich can afford good quality medical care and the middle class and poor are thier own for being poor.
Good medical care should be right to all US citizens regardless of income.
Now the next step is to take away social security and medicare from the Tea Party members since thier main idea is too cut spending.
I am not sure I agree that all insurers need to be non-profit. They do need to have competition with one another and be able to sell across state lines like the P&C industry works. We do need extreme scrutiny with fraud and abuse, particularly with Medicare and Medicaid which is a current joke. You say they should pool together to lower administrative cost. How is that going to promote competition if there is only a few there? The fewer in the game would create a monopoly and tell them they could charge whatever they want and the consumer has no where to go.
This country has 41 million on Food Stamps, less than half pay income tax. Do you think they will be the new paying customers or are these the ones who want “free” healthcare at the expense of us taxpayers? These are the Medicaid people, including illegals who plague the system. Real reform would have included Tort Reform which wasn’t addressed with Ocare. Personally, I think the Feds are too big for their britches now and creating another monstrous bureaucracy will not serve America well.
Ken, don’t you ever get tired of thinking that all conservatives are evil rich people. It is nice to set up that strawman so you can keep your hate going. The truth is that conservatives view liberals as being misguided and naive but not without intellect. Liberals have to view conservatives as the face of pure evil to justify their emotional need to think their position is so righteous as to allow any action (means) to justify their end.
And as far as the goal of destroyin the middle class, do you see any Armani “suits” at a Tea Party rally? Get real, liberals are not the vox populi of the middle class.
We have good medical care in this country but yes, the cost is higher than maybe it should be. Ocare, as has mentioned a hundred times, does nothing to help the cost as it only addresses insurance costs.
Sheltowee, Non profits are great but let’s keep the other insurers in play. After all, if a for profit can produce rates that are cheaper than a non profit for the same coverage, shouldn’t we be able to chose to pay the lower premium. As Agent says, its all about competition.
apparently only democrates are without insurance! good to see republicans have coverage.
God bless Europe.
Obamacare is the biggest lie in the history of the United States. A bill that was written behind closed doors that wants to destroy one sixth of the U.S. economy and put more people out of work. Last week the Obama administration announced the new surprise that Obamacare was funded behind closed doors and was placed into the bill with $105 BILLION that we don’t have to fund this law.
Obama should be IMPEACHED ! We impeach Bill Clinton who just had sex with a willing, unattractive female aid and look at all the nonsense he went through. But you let this idiot Obama ruin our country.
The one concrete fact I know is wrong is that we impeached Bill Clinton. He got voted out of office by Bush, and we all know how wonderfully he left this counrty.
The rest of your closed-door figures are now suspect, good job. Like Abraham Lincoln once said “90% of all statistics you read on the internet are false”.
Gee Tom. I guess the gist of the article, millions of your fellow Americans have to go without decent healthcare and coverage for medical necessities, made no impact on you. Instead you jump right into attack mode. I would say the big lie occured when Republicans controlled the house, senate, and the Presidency. The healthcare system was not addressed back then. Maybe not as much a lie as it was a sin of omission. Your Michelle Bachman $105 billion secret is also a farce. First of all, how does one keep such a sum a secret? But the truth is that much, if not all, of that money was well known before Congress voted on the bill — a fact that drew the wrath of Bachmann’s colleagues, including Sen. Thad Cochran, the ranking REPUBLICAN on the Senate Appropriations Committee. Tom, nobody in Washington wants to destroy the economy. True, many are dictated by special interests. But, there are some, like Bachman, who continue to toot their own agenda without getting the facts. Meanwhile, good people like those discussed in this article suffer.
D, you accuse Tom of jumping into attack mode, but you were quick to get defensive. Just pointing that out.
Personally, I believe you are spot on (I agree) when you said that the health care system was not addressed by the former administration, but should have been (that was implied I assume).
However, doing something regardless of if it wrong or right does not win browny points. What this administrative is doing is not noble or helping the problem (I belive). I am not going to give Barry and his congress a good ol pat on the back just because he is “trying”. I pay taxes so that my gov’t does what is right.
This blame game doesn’t get us anywhere though. It would just really be nice to see politicians put us first for once (that goes for both sides of the aisle).
America,
I agree with what you say. Another thing that should occur is that the people (Rep and Dem alike) in Washington need to be on Health plans and wages like the rest of us…. If you are no longer working in Congress, House, Senate…whatever, you no longer get a paycheck and if you want to stay on the health plan, you buy COBRA like the rest of us.
D, do you really think that something can’t be hidden in a 2,700 page bill. Think about the parlimentary rules used to pass it and all the other issues, including the 1,000 waivers HHS has granted to unions, favorred corps, and insurers.
I will grant you that nobody in DC may want to destroy the economy but whether it is by design or incompetence, the result is still the same.
I suspect that tom is a strawman
I have no problem with rating insurance premiums based on family size, age, weight, smoking history, etc., but would forbid the stupidity of grouping people based on where they work. I am guessing that the insurance folks have all kinds of studies that show dramatic differences by size of “rating group”, etc. but my take is that it is merely a way to compensate a salesman or brokerage for bringing in the business.
Choose any demographic you want to decide the premium, but employment of if employed should be off limits in ANY decision regarding insurance. This type of blatant abuse has given us a complex and government-run health insurance system now — I guess you could say that the private insurance companies who will be driven out of business stubbornly committed suicide. Hope you insurance company shareholders like your investment going to zero along with the insult of stunningly massive golden parachutes for those executives who destroyed your companies with greed.
Thanks for making it easy for the government to put you out of business.
This just in… Apparently the recently unemployed who lost their health insurance still seem to have auto and homeowners/renters insurance. It seems that when insurance is not provided via employers, that they are able to purchase said insurance on a free-market with after-tax dollars at a competitive price, AND, keep said insurance even if they change jobs.
In an even new shocking story, Obama has just indicated he is going to force all insurance, including auto, homeowners, rental, life, etc. to only be available via an employer, AND, the government is also going to begin providing the same insurance for those people that do not have a job and cannot obtain insurance since it is only offered via employers. As America’s evaluate this new regulation, they decide to follow along like lemmings with the assumption that the government who regulates the insurance industry does not have a conflict of interest with a government that provides all insurance.
Annual auto premium one car: $1600.
Annual homeowner’s premium one house: $900.
Annual premium 50 somethings’ health insurance: $12,000.
Thank heavens for the Susan G. Komen Foundation who provides grants at various community hospitals for mammograms for those without access to affordable health insurance.
The Title of the Article is mis-leading. It implies unemployment as the reason for a decline, or an up-rating.
The new health law has increased premiums, and made child-only policies almost non-existent. I’m curious as to why insurancejournal.com published this with the given title?
Okay I know this is making me sound like a broken record but… what about the cost of healthcare??? When the heck is the gov’t going to tackle the actual issue?
Insurance is so expensive because health care is so expensive. I am sick of hearing that it is all the fault of the insurance industry – that is BULL!!!
Until we can find a way to stop doctors from over charging if someone has insurance or until we can find a way to cap damages on medical malpractice claims (among other issues) the problem will persist – regardless of who controls the insurance market (private or gov’t).
The current administration is misleading you… don’t be fooled!
America,
You don’t understand how healthcare in America works (irony, huh). Doctors don’t get to overcharge patients who have insurance. They don’t even get to determine how much they charge for office visits, tests, etc. How it works in the system we are in is the insurance companies tell the doctor how much they are willing to reimburse them for an office visit, tests, etc.
You cannot gouge (overcharge) health insurance companies. That’s not how the system works.
Where are you getting your information?
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/money/2010/09/medical-billing-error-cost-consumer-286-dollars-insurance-doctor-cpt-code.html
There are tons of articles and examples of how doctors overcharge.
They can definitly overcharge.
I think you are confused. Doctors do not dictate to insurance companies what they get paid. Insurance companies dictate what the doctors will be reimbursed.
The article you linked to said it plain as can be:
“I was astounded weeks later when I got the bill: $534 (reduced to $363 under the doctor’s negotiated insurance rate).”
The doctor tried to bill the insurance company; the insurance company said “We only pay $363 for that procedure.”
Doctors don’t have the ability to set their compensation from insurance companies. Insurance companies tell doctors what they will reimburse them.
Correct… they don’t set their compensation for a particular procedure.
But how are we to know what they are and aren’t doing? After I go in for check up I get to see the bill that is sent to the insurance company. The doctor included a ton of stuff I could barely even understand – shouldn’t they just put on there “check up” $50?
They could say they did these 5 procedures when they really just did one. There is no accountability. It happens every day. I was just using that article as an example. There are a ton more – just google it.
The bigger the pot of money the bigger the grab for it. Medical costs are going to rise even further now that Obama-care is in place. Boutique practices are springing up now where a doctor’s practice will only accept new patients with an annual retainer fee and still charge their patient’s health insurance plan. Not long from now we will have the same two tier system that Europe has now – those that will be forced into clinics and poor medical service and those that can pay for the retainer and ‘luxury’ medical service. Good job everyone – it’s time that the industry take a hard look at itself and the result of PAC’s and lobbiest’s influence on this issue. You got what you paid for and the American public is going to have to dig deeper to pay for less than acceptable treatment.
The only reform that should have occurred but was blocked by the industry was to allow a consumer to purchase insurance from any insurer and anywhere in the country. The archaic method of insurance sold only “in” state should have been only thing pre-empted by the federal government. Competition would have leveled the pot of money and the cost of insurance.
If you want to check these claims out for your self go try to get health insurance and increase your weight and few other negative health hitory items…..”Denied”. Its fine with me but I’m healthy and have a job.
Scott, in the state where I live, as there is in most other states, there is aguaranteed insurer of last resort created by the state. So insurance is available to most people regardless of prior medical problems etc. The policy is not free and that may be where some of use see the divide.
If you don’t have a job, then paying for anything may be a problem. We can debate whether unemployment insurance should include a medical policy coverage but what employee would be willing to pay for that contigency and surely, no employer would.
It is what it is, as they say.
I can’t say I agree with how health insurance companies are run, but they are run that way because they’re allowed to run that way. I think there are many industries that take advantage of people to the extent they’re allowed to, by regulation or competition.
I agree with many of you on both sides of the argument, but I think we can all agree, if underwriting profit is desired, this must happen. People in higher risk classes must be denied coverage. There just is no way to collect enough premium to offset the risk, and after all, one of the fundamentals of providing insurance at a PROFIT, is to know when to walk away from a losing proposition.
Maybe we should be asking the bigger questions… like do people have the RIGHT to purchase insurance? Or can a company deny coverage for any reason they see fit? ANY REASON THEY SEE FIT? After all it is their money…
There is enough blame to go around between hospitals, doctors, vendors, insurance companies and our wonderful Federal Government/Congress who has rammed this piece of terrible legislation upon us. Costs are skyrocketing with the uncertainty brought about by the legislation. Doctors are ordering numerous expensive tests for fear of being sued for malpractice due to improper treatment. This country is in a giant vortex and the taxpayers are being sucked into it. This is corruption personified.
Maybe we should just do nothing and continue to allow the uninsured to flood our Emergency Rooms. There’s no cost in that, right?
By uninsured do you also mean illegal residents? Because taking them out of the equation would greatly help our problem.
Of course that makes conservatives sound like heartless “warmongers”. At some point the feds will have to take action on this issue.
D, the uninured cost about an additional 1.7% in insurance premiums due to cost shifting. Most catastrophic “uninsureds” have access to charity hospitals, chartibale foundations and other charitable entities who make up $40-$50 BILLION dollars per year, a figure which is left out of most analysis.
This country’s system of providing healthcare through insurance, charity, government has worked, maybe not ideally, but there was no reason to toss it out. It is a complex matter that needed focused change not 2,700 pages of bureaucratic nonsens.
When I was unemployed, I bought a catastrophic policy to protect my family with a $5,000 deductible. I found a policy that provided coverage and was affordable. Had I wanted to keep my low to no co-pay, high end policy, it would have been unaffordable based on my lack of a job.
I suspect this article takes the simple view using replacement of identical coverage which helps give this article the best possible negative spin.
I assume many of the “studied” subjects are overweight with medical conditions, and they CAN’T get coverage. Maybe our gov should do a better job of helping our citizens stay healthy so they don’t need doctors or medication for high blood pressure, diabetes etc..
Good thing you and your family were all healthy. Had you had any pre-existing conditions that were excludable, you might have been shocked to find that had you had a claim, it very well might have been denied, even with a catastrophic policy.
Pre-existing means a known condition, so why would I buy catastrophic “insurance” for a known condition. Most pre-ex policies exclude known conditions, I wanted coverage for those I didn’t know about. I am afrain you are mixing insurance and social policy together. I don’t buy insurance when my house is burning, since no one in their right mind would sell it to me.
States have mollified this concept health insurance but still allow insurers to charge premiums commensurate with risk.
Question – Why do we as a country continue to support an employers based private health insurance monopoly? Answer the question and you’ll understand in large part why we pay twice what the rest of the world pays for health care. Other countries that use private insurance heavily regulate the industry similar to how we regulate utilities.
I wish I could click “like” a few more times! You make a lot of sense!
Because our care is twice as good!
If you don’t think insurance is heavily regulated, you aren’t paying attention.
I am frankly sick of hearing the strident yells about COSTS and impeachment, and the BIG LIE. the fact remains that many cannot afford or are excldued out of private health insurance, and thus, affordable and decent healthcare.
The Grand Old other party has had all the time in the world to come up with solutions, but the only solutions they have is to slash spending on programs that benefit the middle and working class. It is so much more gratifying to spread the poison, instigate class warfare, polarize the populace than man up and work for a solution…the Rove playbook still.
Where are the suggestions to close the tax loop holes for agribusiness? for the oil companies? for Wall Street protections? while the US may have a high corporate tax rate on the books, the incessant and egregious special interest loopholes make the effective tax rate ridiculously low.
And that is my answer; THAT is how we pay to extend healthcare/insurance to our many, many deserving and uninsured brethren.
Why do all we hear from the GOP is slassh, cut, repeal? Where is the flip side of this equation….more taxes from those that can and deserve to pay more? Why are millionaires protected by the very party platform, while the middle and working class gets things chipped away, and slashed, and repealed?
If there is to be class warfare in this country, I will tell you who started it; the true mean spiritedness and just plain snake meanness of some of the GOP and the Tea party candidates is now surfacing. We will see what happens to your “mandate” in 2012!
Bottom line… both parties are 100% at fault. To blame one over the other doesn’t make sense.
For us, the people, it is a battle of ideals.
However, the current administration is in the hot seat… so they are the ones to take the blame now. You can’t blame the former administration for Barry and the Senate’s mistakes.
Don’t forget Pelosi America. After all, she said they had to pass it so we could see what was in it. Now we see and we hate it more. D says how could we miss the 105 Billion in this bill for self funding? The way you do it is hide it among thousands of provisions. Legal scholars can’t understand this bill. The Demwit Progressives did this on purpose and behind closed doors in the middle of the night and forced a vote before anyone knew what was going on. The Blue Dogs walked the plank for her and Reid and now they are regretting it.
Watcher, you never cease to amaze me. The same rhetoric has propelled you into a religious trance.
I want you to look at the “green” susidies along with all the others you mentioned. Grants of billions of dollars for electric cars, windmills etc. Look at how much GE is slated to get from this. Look at a company like Whirlpool who now has so many “energy star” (appliance credits) tax credits that it will not pay 1 cent in taxes for at least the next 5 years. You really need to look at Demos and “crony capitalism” before you castigate repubs
And as usual, you want all this social spending done without regard to cost. You have never answered what % the “rich” should pay, just nebulous cries for more. I suspect the reason is that the rich should “give back” what they “don’t need”, a figure you will adjust later.
Face it, America has come to the realization that we can’t afford liberals anymore, and that reality is what drives you to the irrational assumption that we should provide covrage for all while also paying whatever it takes.
Watcher, I understand what you are saying but look at the political platform we have today? We have to do something even if it is the GOP!!! Or we all will have to learn how to speak Chinese!!
Watcher,
There is so much waste in our budget it is unbelievable. To say that the GOP proposed cuts are only to hurt the middle and working class is ridiculous. There is so much we don’t need. Do we need to spend billions on ethanol subsidies? NO! If the stuff won”t sell itself, get rid of it, it’s driving food prices higher, but the heck with the poor in theh world eating, just cut our greenhouse gases. Do we need to continue to finance the Arts when we are trillions in debt and millions can’t get health insurance, NO! Do we need to spend billions on trains when the trains in our country lose money and have to be subsidized like Amtrak? NO! Do we need to spend money on keeping NPR afloat? NO! I could go on and on. It all adds up Watcher. We are out of money, we need cuts and popular or unpopular, someone or some party has to propose real spending cuts. The Repubs propose 60 billion and get vilified by you. The Dems offer 6 billion, that is a drop in the bucket, take that and then pile on a lot more spending cuts on top and we will finally get somewhere.You can’t just do that 6 billion, though. It’s that plus the Repub cuts, plus more. No matter what, someone loses something, you can’t change that. We just need to get down to what we need to have versus what is a nice to have.
What Watcher/Cassandra will never get is that there is no more money to fund all the Progressive agenda they want to implement. The money is not there for school districts, cities, counties, states and the Federal Government. The era of big spending is over but wild eyed liberals are kicking and screaming. They are not very good with numbers. Our Federal Deficit is 1,600 Billion and they object to a measley $61 Bil off the non-budget of 2010. This government needs to be cut in half right away. We just cannot afford Progressive Liberalism.
It is a misrepresentation to say that many cannot afford or are excldued out of private health insurance, and thus, affordable and decent healthcare.
As a healthcare agent I found that each individual States provided decent, affordable sometimes free, programs for people in this category, usually in conjunction with Medicaid or through kids programs and/or spend down requirements.
The people who don’t have coverage are those unwilling to do what it takes to become insured including just filling out the paperwork. I really believe the healthcare bill is designed primary to get more people to pay for what we already have. Just like the governments plan to hire more IRS agents – get the deadbeat tax dodgers to start paying their share of existing government programs and share our pain.
This is just plain wrong. The idea that people are just too lazy to fill out paperwork is not just wrong, it’s disingenuous, and ignorant. Most of these free programs are nothing more than clinics and discount programs. For long-term care and catastrophic illness these programs are the equivalent of taking an aspirin for cancer. So to suggest that these programs are a viable alternative to full health coverage is deceptive, ignorant, and and just plain wrong.
You are right that there are a lot of deadbeats out there who are not paying into the system, but want all the benefits like free healthcare. The public unions want us to fund all their healtcare/pensions and don’t want to put any skin in the game. What they don’t get is the till is empty. School districts are laying off teachers and other employees. Cities, counties, state government is having to do the same thing because of budget problems. Our Federal Government certainly doesn’t get it that they have to do serious belt tightening. These Progressive Liberals in charge currently should be drummed out of office for the damage they have caused to our economy.
Of course! it’s the unions fault. But try raising taxes to pay down state federal debt? impossible
health insurance as a for-profit enterprise is simply wrong. when are you going to get it.
First, 43 million people did not lose their health insurance because of their job loss, the insured population in 2008 was 46 million people based on a study by the OMB. Oh, by the way that study was during the previous administration. Just like the national budget, the greatest costs in healthcare are the salaries of the people who are caring for you when in the hospital or clinic. Wages are a supply and demand problem and will continue to increase or decrease like the remaining naitional paycheck. More people going into healthcare jobs may reduce the cost, but people are over 55% of the budgets in hospitals and clinics. Now, after leaving the healthcare industry several years ago and having had a couple of health issues, I don’t really want the cheapest surgeon on the block nor do you. Generally, healthcare has attracted some of the brightest people in the country and I know them personally…I don’t want the doctor or nurse who is unable to read and write opening my chest for a little surgey. Heathcare is about 16% of our GDP and it may be at that level for a while. The reality is that what dems and pubs are arguing about more than anything is the method of payment. Everyday whether you pay for your healthcare or your employer pays your healthcare you are subsidizing both Medicare and Medicaid with your healthcare premiums. Medicare & Medicaid do not cover their actual costs, they are paying only about 50 cents on a dollar of service. The cost of your health insurance is covering much of the cost of these entitlement programs and will continue to do so. I look at it as a reverse tax that is hidden in the cost of all good and services provided in this country. Your premium dollars wherever they come from pay parts of all of the healthcare. Oh…by the way, that “free care” you are talking about is also about 3% of the bill as well. The insurance companies can only pay what is approved by Medicare. If a service is not covered by medicare, 99% of all health insurance polices will decline payment until medicare is paying for the same services. Until there is a control over compensation of the smart people who are your doctors and clinicians and nurses and technicians the cost of healthcare will be higher. If the incomes of these people begin to drop, your income will already have suffered. We are all part of the problem and need to get real. We cannot have the level of care we get without expecting to pay something significant for it. It appears to me that for now it is somewhere near about 16% of every dollar earned in America. Level the playing field and have everyone pay a percentage of the total income and then select which payment system you want. Competition will eliminate the systems are are ill prepared for the competition. Employer pays 7% of your total compensation and you pay 7% of total compensation and you pick your poison. The government (you & me) can pick up the other 2% and it will be taken care of. The illegals and others will also be paying their fair share as well. Each of us would scramble to find the smart guys first wouldn’t we. Today I have people in my office daily wanting to buy health insurance after they are already ill. The didn’t need insurance until they got sick. 95% of them are declined as they should be. Should they pay one month of premiums and have you support their chemo for lung cancer. On umemployment? You will pay your 7% and the government (you and me) will pay the difference. Where does the rubber hit the road. Until we all learn to control our use of the system and often excessive use the costs will continue to rise in any system. It is our problem, not the dems and pubs. Do you want the smart ones or dumbs ones serving you.
“The silver lining is that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act has already begun to bring relief to families,” Karen Davis added.
Obamacare is going to save us consumers…Yeah, right. I’ve never had an employer pay for any of my healthcare coverage over the years. I pay it all myself. And my insurance company just sent me a premium increase notice letter this week that plainly stated “due to the PPACA….”
I’ve got an idea: Let’s pass this bill so we can read it and understand what’s in it!
The insurance mechanism with its underwriters and brokers play a purely parasitic role in health insurance. The only sustainable model, one that will deliver healthcare without the parasitic 40% markup for non-healthcare expenses(taxes, fees, risk charges, unnecessary administrative overheads, corporate profits and lobbying expenses), is single-payer.
Spoken like a true Progressive Liberal believer Mr. V. Do you really think our wonderful Federal Government can administer Health Insurance efficiently? Name a Federal Program which they do well. There is so much waste, fraud, duplication, corruption that it ends up costing the taxpayer double or triple the original estimate. Why do you think this country is running a deficit of 1,600 Billion this year? It is because politicians have created massive spending bills and bureaucracy including Ocare/Cronycare which is totally unsustainable. It is also going to lead to rationing of care which will deny services to millions of Americans. What should have happened is the creation of Pools for the Citizens who have had trouble finding coverage, real tort reform and allowing insurance to be sold across state lines to create more competition. That would have kept the costs down and been much less expensive to the nation as a whole.
Rising health premiums…the blame goes round and round. Yet the answer is perfectly clear to anyone who can leave politics and/or old paradigm thinking out of the equation. The risk pools are shrinking. That’s what happens when 25 million people leave/are forced from/can no longer afford private insurance.
The less people in the risk pool the higher the premium. Period. Those that believe health insurance should be private will reap what you sow…..the cycle will continue until no one but the wealthiest in society can afford health care insurance. What will middle-class private insurance advocates do then?
Mr. V. I suppose you think that there isn’t 40% of waste in a single payer. Let me think, just this week CMS admitted that a “software error” caused them to overpay for Viagra by nearly $4 Million dollars. You might want to pour yourself a stiff one.
My friend just had four ultra-sounds done; one on each hand, one on each foot. Total cost: $19,000!
Crazy!
Thank heavens for health insurance provided by the former employer!
MP, again, health provider costs need to be addressed and Ocare does not of that. It’s just that simple. The cost of insurance is just the tip of the iceberg but it has wipped up the frothing libs as it invokes the image of a “big corporation”. We all know how that mention produces the Pavlovian response.
This gravy train must stop. Medicare, medicaid fraud and abuse is symptomatic of what has gone on for years. Politicians don’t have the courage or smarts to take on the fraud & abuse problem. Hospitals, doctors and vendors have been and are continuing to game the system. The crooks need to be caught, prosecuted and put in prison for what they are doing. Many estimates are between 5-100 Bil per year is pure waste and fraud.
The republicans answer for Health Insurance was to have HSA accounts and keep paying high premiums which most unemployed or even employeed families have difficuly paying. All they care about is business making money or union busting and destroying the middle class.
There answer is only the rich can afford good quality medical care and the middle class and poor are thier own for being poor.
Good medical care should be right to all US citizens regardless of income.
Now the next step is to take away social security and medicare from the Tea Party members since thier main idea is too cut spending.
1. Insurers need to be NON-PROFIT.
2. Hospitals, Pharmacies, other medical facilities, Doctors and Insurers should renegotiate the fees, rates with FED OVERSIGHT.
3. Keep scrutinizing and funding MEDICARE AND MEDICAID FRAUD. IT SAVES BILLIONS.
4. COMPANIES SHOULD CONSIDER MERGING WITH OTHER COMPANIES INORDER TO POOL MORE MONEY TOGETHER AND LOWER ADMINISTRATIVE COST.
There will be plenty of paying customers.
The more people that can afford insurance the less people on medicaid.
ALSO THE FEDS NEED RATE CONTROLS AND OVERSIGHT OVER THE INDUSTRY.
I am not sure I agree that all insurers need to be non-profit. They do need to have competition with one another and be able to sell across state lines like the P&C industry works. We do need extreme scrutiny with fraud and abuse, particularly with Medicare and Medicaid which is a current joke. You say they should pool together to lower administrative cost. How is that going to promote competition if there is only a few there? The fewer in the game would create a monopoly and tell them they could charge whatever they want and the consumer has no where to go.
This country has 41 million on Food Stamps, less than half pay income tax. Do you think they will be the new paying customers or are these the ones who want “free” healthcare at the expense of us taxpayers? These are the Medicaid people, including illegals who plague the system. Real reform would have included Tort Reform which wasn’t addressed with Ocare. Personally, I think the Feds are too big for their britches now and creating another monstrous bureaucracy will not serve America well.
Ken, don’t you ever get tired of thinking that all conservatives are evil rich people. It is nice to set up that strawman so you can keep your hate going. The truth is that conservatives view liberals as being misguided and naive but not without intellect. Liberals have to view conservatives as the face of pure evil to justify their emotional need to think their position is so righteous as to allow any action (means) to justify their end.
And as far as the goal of destroyin the middle class, do you see any Armani “suits” at a Tea Party rally? Get real, liberals are not the vox populi of the middle class.
We have good medical care in this country but yes, the cost is higher than maybe it should be. Ocare, as has mentioned a hundred times, does nothing to help the cost as it only addresses insurance costs.
Sheltowee, Non profits are great but let’s keep the other insurers in play. After all, if a for profit can produce rates that are cheaper than a non profit for the same coverage, shouldn’t we be able to chose to pay the lower premium. As Agent says, its all about competition.