70,000 page tax code, Did I hear that right? Huh! That is a good defense for tax evasion. How about one page, 0 deductions and everyone pay 15%, hows that? and if government can not live on that, shrink government!
This article properly details the underlying problem with our tax code. All I ever hear from the people at the top is..”How can I get out of paying taxes so the middle class bear the brunt of funding the nation?”
The people at the top generally talk about how it will effect creation of wealth. Businesses create wealth, governments spend it. For every dollar you tax you take away potentially $100 from growth of capital. Lower taxes do create more jobs. Compare the top 70% tax rate to the 39.6 in Clinton’ presidency. We aren’t going to be having this stupid argument anymore Seriously. You can’t argue lower taxes are good in some cases, when it’s a democrat (Clinton and JFK) and then bad when it’s a republican (Reagan or Bush) especially Bush considering it only changed the top rates 2-3%. Re-think that a moment, your claim to fame is that 2-3 percent is worth debating over, when lowering the rate from 70% to 39.6 actually brought up revenues to 20% of GDP instead of the prior 16-18%. That’s what the rich complain about, idiotic debates on tax rates which both JFK and Clinton agreed needed to be lowered
The rich also talk about the fact that 50% of Americans pay no income tax. Don’t hit back with the liberal ridiculous comment that property taxes etc still count. What percent of the 50% lower Americans own a house? Only about 60% of Americans own a house, so only 10% of the bottom 50% can own a house. Social security they basically get back. I do not count that tax. Same with medicare.
Also the rich often state you can’t expect to be taxed one dollar in the middle class with social security and medicare and be paid 10 or more at retirement by taxing the rich and then yell at the rich for not paying enough of your bills stating they are trying to “make the middle class bear the brunt of funding the nation” while disregarding that statement literally states the rich should just pay all the middle class’s bills, which is wrong. I would call that being selfish. Which nation’s bills go to the rich from our tax bill? The middle class are not bearing the “nation’s” bills. They are bearing their own. Moreover, lower tax rates actually increase revenues and lower the cost to produce (AKA living costs are lowered), so they aren’t bearing more weight of living. They would be bearing less.
That has been my exact position for a long time. Flat tax, 15% and No deductions, none including home mortgage interest and property taxes. However, there will be some that think 15% is not fair and that they are letting the “rich” off the hook. That would be the same 50% who pay 0 taxes today. So my question is- If 50% of the people pay -0- taxes and the top 4-5% pay 75 to 80% of the tax income, who is not paying their fair share?
I always thought the Tax Code was 2,000-2,500 pages which is roughly the size of Obamacare. That is about 4 feet thick. 70,000 pages is hard to believe. If my math is right, that would be 112 ft high. Does anyone not believe we need serious tax reform in this country? Scrap the whole code, simplify it with a flat or fair tax and get rid of all the loopholes. Also, make it where everyone has some skin in the game instead of just half. Us on the paying side are tired of paying for the useless freeloaders.
That is a problem when you use taxes and the government to create wealth distribution-the corporations and the rich can hire accountants and attorneys and don’t pay taxes. The poor don’t pay taxes, so who is left?
There is no real party of the middle class so we get hosed in the end. How sad.
The time to stop talking about tax reform and doing something about it has come. It may take a taxpayer revolt to get it going and politicians had better watch out. We are serious about fiscal responsibility and the government to live within their means. Enough is enough. The lobbyists for big business & lawyers all want the gravy train to continue. I wonder what all these tax attorneys would do if they weren’t on retainer to help the big boys avoid paying taxes. Accountants may have a tough time as well if the returns were simplified and the average Joe could figure his own taxes. We could also cut the IRS in half for a big savings.
I hate to burst your bubble Caldude, but the Tea Party was all about fiscal responsibility, tax reduction and stopping the big spending agenda of the Federal Government. TEA stands for Taxed Enough Already. Get it? You have been reading too many Progressive blogs man. Wake up!
“but the Tea Party was all about fiscal responsibility, tax reduction and stopping the big spending agenda of the Federal Government.”
Emphasis on was….my point stands.
For the record: The Tea Party name is in reference to the “Boston Tea Party” of 1773 when colonist dumped tea in protest over taxation without representation (6th grade history) not an acronymn.
What concerns me the most about the movement is the absolute no compromise plank. How is that governing? Interesting that collaboration skills are considered a necessary means to survivie and succeed in business, but not in politics.
September 12, 2012 at 2:38 pm
Agent says:
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Cal, The Tea Party is still for fiscal responsibility and opposition of the taxation and big spending ways of the federal government. As far as compromise goes, there are a lot of people in this country that are tired of compromising with liberal progressives. They never compromise on anything. Everytime a conservative reaches across the aisle, another big spending bill is passed. Whenever liberals are agreeable to big spending cuts and not increasing taxes, we will have some compromise. Don’t hold your breath on that happening.
September 10, 2012 at 11:26 am
JB says:
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Amen to a simplified tax code and a flat tax — it’s rational, it’s reasonable and it’s FAIR!
It could work as follows: the first “X” amount of income for an individual (let’s say $30,000 exemption per person, and perhaps a $5,000 exemption for each dependent child) is “no tax” status. Everything above that, regardless of source, is taxed at 20%. All corporations; companies; LLC’s or whatever, taxed at a flat 5% of gross income. No write-offs, no depreciation, no loopholes.
It would result in something like this:
Citizen A income $40,000 – tax owed 20% of $10,000 = $2,000
(Citizen A with one child – tax owed 20% of $5,000 = $1,000)
Citizen B income $130,000 – tax owed 20% of $100,000 = $20,00
(Citizen B with one child – tax owed 20% of $95,000 = $18,000)
Corp/Company A gross revenue $100,000 – tax owed $5,000
Corp/Company B gross revenue $1,000,000 – tax owed $50,000
All individuals and companies would have a known and predictable tax rate, free from preferential or non-preferential treatment. The tax return could be a single piece of paper.
Companies would know that whatever they take in they’ve got 95% of it to operate with. The tax code could no longer be used to pick winners or losers, reward or punish special interests. Add to this a uniform import tariff on ALL goods coming into the country – regardless of whether the business is organized in the U.S. or not. Foreign businesses would have to pay to enter our marketplace (kind of like ante in a poker game) U.S. companies would have some incentive to keep jobs here, or “ante up” the same as any foreign business if they choose not to. U.S. companies would no longer be at a competitive disadvantage with countries engaging in the modern equivalent of slave labor (dictatorships, command economies, etc)
Bottom line: the U.S. government would have more tax revenue coming in the more successful you are, less coming when you’re not. U.S. businesses would enjoy a more level playing field with foreign businesses. The U.S. government would have a vested interest in seeing greater profits and success of ALL U.S. based individuals and businesses. The U.S.A. could be, and should be, the “Switzerland” and “Cayman Islands” of the world!
JB, your post makes too much sense for some of the simpleton Progressive who think the only way to increase revenue is to increase the marginal rates on the wealthy. The reality is that everytime this is done, revenue to the government falls off because of layoffs and less taxpayers. They will never “get it” and think government spending (Keynsian Economics) is the way to stimulate the economy. They are an abysmal failure which has been shown in spades for years.
Flat tax and tort reform are a pipe dream. I remember it (flat tax) being dicussed all the way back in Community College. Instructor said its on its way. 25 + years later.
Hearing the term Tort Reform out of a Politician is like hearing the F word out of the pope.
FFA, As long as we have Attorneys running for office and getting elected, we will not have Tort Reform. They will not allow their gravy train to be interrupted. They also like the tax code as it exists since many are tax attorney’s. What would they do in real life if they couldn’t sue someone or advise a rich person on how to avoid paying taxes. Prominent rich Liberals are determined to keep from paying their fair share. John Kerry couln’t even bring himself to pay his yacht taxes in Massachusetts so he moved it to Rhode Island. Kerry and wife are worth in excess of $300 million and are very good at sheltering their money from the IRS.
I also wonder how many of the high earners don’t have health insurance anyway? Some of the very weathliest probably do not carry insurance, but wouldn’t that work out much cheaper than a percentage of their income? Why are they looking for loopholes when just purchasing insurance would be simpler and cheaper?
They aren’t looking for ways to get out of buying insurance. There were tax increases on high earners in the PPACA bill, regardless of whether or not they have health insurance.
This is nothing more than peple acting rationally. Where there is a tax, people will find ways to legally avoid it, as long as the cost of avoidance is less than the tax.
Who says government cannot create employment?
70,000 page tax code, Did I hear that right? Huh! That is a good defense for tax evasion. How about one page, 0 deductions and everyone pay 15%, hows that? and if government can not live on that, shrink government!
This article properly details the underlying problem with our tax code. All I ever hear from the people at the top is..”How can I get out of paying taxes so the middle class bear the brunt of funding the nation?”
I’ve never heard this phrase.
The people at the top generally talk about how it will effect creation of wealth. Businesses create wealth, governments spend it. For every dollar you tax you take away potentially $100 from growth of capital. Lower taxes do create more jobs. Compare the top 70% tax rate to the 39.6 in Clinton’ presidency. We aren’t going to be having this stupid argument anymore Seriously. You can’t argue lower taxes are good in some cases, when it’s a democrat (Clinton and JFK) and then bad when it’s a republican (Reagan or Bush) especially Bush considering it only changed the top rates 2-3%. Re-think that a moment, your claim to fame is that 2-3 percent is worth debating over, when lowering the rate from 70% to 39.6 actually brought up revenues to 20% of GDP instead of the prior 16-18%. That’s what the rich complain about, idiotic debates on tax rates which both JFK and Clinton agreed needed to be lowered
The rich also talk about the fact that 50% of Americans pay no income tax. Don’t hit back with the liberal ridiculous comment that property taxes etc still count. What percent of the 50% lower Americans own a house? Only about 60% of Americans own a house, so only 10% of the bottom 50% can own a house. Social security they basically get back. I do not count that tax. Same with medicare.
Also the rich often state you can’t expect to be taxed one dollar in the middle class with social security and medicare and be paid 10 or more at retirement by taxing the rich and then yell at the rich for not paying enough of your bills stating they are trying to “make the middle class bear the brunt of funding the nation” while disregarding that statement literally states the rich should just pay all the middle class’s bills, which is wrong. I would call that being selfish. Which nation’s bills go to the rich from our tax bill? The middle class are not bearing the “nation’s” bills. They are bearing their own. Moreover, lower tax rates actually increase revenues and lower the cost to produce (AKA living costs are lowered), so they aren’t bearing more weight of living. They would be bearing less.
Sarah
That has been my exact position for a long time. Flat tax, 15% and No deductions, none including home mortgage interest and property taxes. However, there will be some that think 15% is not fair and that they are letting the “rich” off the hook. That would be the same 50% who pay 0 taxes today. So my question is- If 50% of the people pay -0- taxes and the top 4-5% pay 75 to 80% of the tax income, who is not paying their fair share?
I always thought the Tax Code was 2,000-2,500 pages which is roughly the size of Obamacare. That is about 4 feet thick. 70,000 pages is hard to believe. If my math is right, that would be 112 ft high. Does anyone not believe we need serious tax reform in this country? Scrap the whole code, simplify it with a flat or fair tax and get rid of all the loopholes. Also, make it where everyone has some skin in the game instead of just half. Us on the paying side are tired of paying for the useless freeloaders.
That is a problem when you use taxes and the government to create wealth distribution-the corporations and the rich can hire accountants and attorneys and don’t pay taxes. The poor don’t pay taxes, so who is left?
There is no real party of the middle class so we get hosed in the end. How sad.
The time to stop talking about tax reform and doing something about it has come. It may take a taxpayer revolt to get it going and politicians had better watch out. We are serious about fiscal responsibility and the government to live within their means. Enough is enough. The lobbyists for big business & lawyers all want the gravy train to continue. I wonder what all these tax attorneys would do if they weren’t on retainer to help the big boys avoid paying taxes. Accountants may have a tough time as well if the returns were simplified and the average Joe could figure his own taxes. We could also cut the IRS in half for a big savings.
Sadly, the Tea Party may have had a true impact on tax reform if they focused on fiscal responsibility and not on party and religious affiliation.
I hate to burst your bubble Caldude, but the Tea Party was all about fiscal responsibility, tax reduction and stopping the big spending agenda of the Federal Government. TEA stands for Taxed Enough Already. Get it? You have been reading too many Progressive blogs man. Wake up!
“but the Tea Party was all about fiscal responsibility, tax reduction and stopping the big spending agenda of the Federal Government.”
Emphasis on was….my point stands.
For the record: The Tea Party name is in reference to the “Boston Tea Party” of 1773 when colonist dumped tea in protest over taxation without representation (6th grade history) not an acronymn.
What concerns me the most about the movement is the absolute no compromise plank. How is that governing? Interesting that collaboration skills are considered a necessary means to survivie and succeed in business, but not in politics.
Cal, The Tea Party is still for fiscal responsibility and opposition of the taxation and big spending ways of the federal government. As far as compromise goes, there are a lot of people in this country that are tired of compromising with liberal progressives. They never compromise on anything. Everytime a conservative reaches across the aisle, another big spending bill is passed. Whenever liberals are agreeable to big spending cuts and not increasing taxes, we will have some compromise. Don’t hold your breath on that happening.
Amen to a simplified tax code and a flat tax — it’s rational, it’s reasonable and it’s FAIR!
It could work as follows: the first “X” amount of income for an individual (let’s say $30,000 exemption per person, and perhaps a $5,000 exemption for each dependent child) is “no tax” status. Everything above that, regardless of source, is taxed at 20%. All corporations; companies; LLC’s or whatever, taxed at a flat 5% of gross income. No write-offs, no depreciation, no loopholes.
It would result in something like this:
Citizen A income $40,000 – tax owed 20% of $10,000 = $2,000
(Citizen A with one child – tax owed 20% of $5,000 = $1,000)
Citizen B income $130,000 – tax owed 20% of $100,000 = $20,00
(Citizen B with one child – tax owed 20% of $95,000 = $18,000)
Corp/Company A gross revenue $100,000 – tax owed $5,000
Corp/Company B gross revenue $1,000,000 – tax owed $50,000
All individuals and companies would have a known and predictable tax rate, free from preferential or non-preferential treatment. The tax return could be a single piece of paper.
Companies would know that whatever they take in they’ve got 95% of it to operate with. The tax code could no longer be used to pick winners or losers, reward or punish special interests. Add to this a uniform import tariff on ALL goods coming into the country – regardless of whether the business is organized in the U.S. or not. Foreign businesses would have to pay to enter our marketplace (kind of like ante in a poker game) U.S. companies would have some incentive to keep jobs here, or “ante up” the same as any foreign business if they choose not to. U.S. companies would no longer be at a competitive disadvantage with countries engaging in the modern equivalent of slave labor (dictatorships, command economies, etc)
Bottom line: the U.S. government would have more tax revenue coming in the more successful you are, less coming when you’re not. U.S. businesses would enjoy a more level playing field with foreign businesses. The U.S. government would have a vested interest in seeing greater profits and success of ALL U.S. based individuals and businesses. The U.S.A. could be, and should be, the “Switzerland” and “Cayman Islands” of the world!
JB, your post makes too much sense for some of the simpleton Progressive who think the only way to increase revenue is to increase the marginal rates on the wealthy. The reality is that everytime this is done, revenue to the government falls off because of layoffs and less taxpayers. They will never “get it” and think government spending (Keynsian Economics) is the way to stimulate the economy. They are an abysmal failure which has been shown in spades for years.
Flat tax and tort reform are a pipe dream. I remember it (flat tax) being dicussed all the way back in Community College. Instructor said its on its way. 25 + years later.
Hearing the term Tort Reform out of a Politician is like hearing the F word out of the pope.
FFA, As long as we have Attorneys running for office and getting elected, we will not have Tort Reform. They will not allow their gravy train to be interrupted. They also like the tax code as it exists since many are tax attorney’s. What would they do in real life if they couldn’t sue someone or advise a rich person on how to avoid paying taxes. Prominent rich Liberals are determined to keep from paying their fair share. John Kerry couln’t even bring himself to pay his yacht taxes in Massachusetts so he moved it to Rhode Island. Kerry and wife are worth in excess of $300 million and are very good at sheltering their money from the IRS.
I also wonder how many of the high earners don’t have health insurance anyway? Some of the very weathliest probably do not carry insurance, but wouldn’t that work out much cheaper than a percentage of their income? Why are they looking for loopholes when just purchasing insurance would be simpler and cheaper?
They aren’t looking for ways to get out of buying insurance. There were tax increases on high earners in the PPACA bill, regardless of whether or not they have health insurance.
This is nothing more than peple acting rationally. Where there is a tax, people will find ways to legally avoid it, as long as the cost of avoidance is less than the tax.