…many independent agents join others in an association, alliance or cluster, but while small businesses in other industries may do this to bolster their limited resources or to network with peers, insurance agents’ goals are principally to enhance access to carriers and to increase their commission.
Bingo. Customers need to ask their agent, “How do you get paid? Do you accept gifts from your carriers like fancy trips or outings? Do your CSRs accept cash bounties from carriers for policies written?” If any of the answers are “yes” then the customer needs to look elsewhere.
Sure the agents get a commission, they need to be paid for their services, but these other “payoffs” are not above-board and can slant an “independent” agent unfairly toward another company — not necessarily the best company for the customer’s needs.
Agents have been in bed with Progressive and other direct digital companies for years. They are willing to lie down with the enemy when it suits them, but then complain about competition. Really?
Gifts, trips & outings can be offered by vendors & suppliers to just about any business type. This isn’t exclusive to insurance. Happens in many industries from autos to swimming pool supplies. If consumers asked this question for all products, the would have a pretty short list of places to shop.
The local pool guy or car dealer is not in a fiduciary relationship with the customer. Insurance is a different type of product that can’t be compared to the retail sale of widgets. I seriously doubt that the sales clerk at Walmart or Best Buy gets sent on trips to Spain or Hawaii by the company’s vendors.
Agents can continue to follow these “old school” practices at their own peril. Contingent commissions have already come under attack and it’s likely some of these “off book” inducements will be looked at carefully by regulators and consumer advocates in the future.
Eventually, customers will lose faith in the impartiality of the “independent” agent and will seek advice and service elsewhere — including online.
If independent agents want to be seen as true professionals, they should implement a code of ethics and refuse any gifts or payoffs from their carriers outside of the normal commission structure. Exceptions could be made for nominal items like company branded items or the occasional lunch or local golf outing. But high-value trips, cash payments, and other hidden (from the customer) inducements should be refused by the agency to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.
Certainly if a CSR or producer is getting a $50 cash payment from a carrier for each new policy, this should be disclosed to the customer at the very least!
Such ethics policies are commonplace in businesses these days — for a good reason.
If the carrier offering the $50 incentive is the best fit for the customer, why would you disclose the incentive? That would very possibly cause the customer to question their new coverage to their detriment.
I don’t think you’ve thought this through very well.
I think I’ve thought it through quite thoroughly and I’m having trouble understanding why you are arguing that it’s okay to conceal these types of incentives from your customers. I would disclose the $50 incentive because I am honest.
To quote your response, “That would very possibly cause the customer to question their new coverage to their detriment.”
EXACTLY! Why accept such gifts if for no other reason than to avoid even the appearance of impropriety? Why not let the customer feel you are being open and honest with them at all times, not hiding compensation that could reasonably be expected to cloud your or your CSR’s judgment? Is that $50 gift card or that golf vacation or that trip to Spain soooo important to you that you won’t refuse it? If it is, then I’d say your judgment IS impacted by it!
Why is everyone here arguing against openness and honesty with their customers? Kind of scary from my (the customer) point of view. I guess agents really don’t understand what the customer is thinking after all. I guess that’s one reason online sales are such a major threat…
January 12, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Libby says:
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Nobody here has an issue with transparency and honesty, but just how far do you go? I get a box of chocolates at Christmas time from one of my carriers. Do I disclose this? That’s absurd.
Personally, I have no financial incentive to direct business anywhere, as I am compensated based on retention and the size of my book. I do what I do with my clients best interests in mind – ALWAYS. It’s sad that you seem to think that is the exception instead of the rule.
January 12, 2015 at 2:26 pm
Don Quixote says:
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@ Libby, I’m glad you don’t have an issue with transparency, but I don’t think you can say “nobody here” does either. It seems quite a number of folks really do have an issue with it. Big time. I really seem to have hit a nerve! Kind of amazing and much worse than I expected. It’s a shame, really.
BTW: Again, I stated that there is no issue IMHO regarding nominal gifts such as your hypothetical box of chocolates. Your box of chocolates at Christmas time was not tied to giving that carrier any specific policy was it? It was an annual thank you for the relationship, right? Well, that’s okay.
On the other hand, if they promise you a $25 box of chocolate to your CSR for every policy you send them, then I have a problem with it. Just like I have a problem with any payoff that is tied to individual transactions/customers. I really hope you and the others posting here can see the difference.
It sounds like you have a fair and reasonable incentive plan that has little or no conflict of interest with the interests of your clients and I think that’s great. I wish everyone would be on the same page. It would serve our industry’s reputation well to be as honest and above board as you in all our dealings with clients and carriers.
January 12, 2015 at 4:46 pm
Libby says:
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I, too, disagree with tying a cash bonus to the number of policies written. I have heard of carriers tying a bonus for number of apps or policies quoted. I’m on the fence with that, as it is not tied to placing business. But my fear would be the CSR would quote only that carrier and would steer business by default so I am against it.
January 12, 2015 at 11:25 am
Libby says:
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Many times these “trips” are actually management meetings where company executives hear from their top agents on pertinent issues and topics. In addition, it is usually the agency principal that particiates in these trips and rarely are they the top producers in the office.
Having a large volume with a carrier, and thereby being eligible for gifts and trips, can work in a client’s best interest when negotiating pricing &/or claim problems.
Not everyone is “on the take” as you insinuate. We wouldn’t stay in business if that was our motivation and it’s insulting that you even hint at it. Let me guess. You’re not an independent agent.
Yeah, because it’s necessary to have a “management meeting” in Spain.
Hey, maybe I’m wrong about this. I can admit that. If it’s really above board, just disclose it to your customers and I’m fine with it. Problem solved.
However, if you’re unwilling or afraid to disclose it to the customer then you ought to take a look in the mirror because you really are “on the take” even if you won’t admit it.
If you are an independent agent, I’m guessing you are over the age of 50, white and male… Old school to the end.
I wouldn’t disagree that some incentives are not well conceived. Example –Company marketing rep provides per policy incentive to CSR without owner knowledge. On the other hand, I am not sure how a contingent commission that encourages the design & implementation of creative/aggressive marketing practices that results in extraordinary premium growth is a violation of the fiduciary responsibility. The presence of a contingent commission doesn’t necessarily mean the price is higher.
Not sure what the white male over 50 has to do with this discussion. Do you feel inadequate because you’re not a white male over 50?
I don’t know about you SWFL, but I frequently end up with a lot of carriers that have very similar premiums. Incentive and commission rate are meaningless even in those instances. How do you pay claims? Do I know management on a first name basis? Can I fix any issues with a simple phone call? Those are the questions I ask.
January 12, 2015 at 2:00 pm
Don Quixote says:
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If you’ll note my comments, I did not take issue with contingent commissions or any standard commission structure. The state of New York took issue, not me.
I think a commission structure that provides incentive to the overall agency for sales and profitability makes perfect sense. Gifts and payola to influence individuals to direct individual policies to a certain carrier is a lousy way to do business. Accepting those types of gifts is a lousy way to do business.
If a carrier is that desperate that it has to pay fifty bucks for a quote or a policy, then I’d question why the agency is placing the business there in the first place.
Any ethical agency principal should have a policy for his/her agency that prohibits accepting gifts, other than those of nominal value, from any carrier. All gifts should be disclosed to agency management.
Mr. Solvent has some excellent points. The carrier’s claims handling, their ability/willingness to take care of problems when they arise, their responsiveness to submissions, etc. should be the basis for the agency’s decision to place business there. Not “oh they sent me to Disney so I’ll give them the business”.
If you don’t see the difference, I’d say you’re part of the problem.
January 12, 2015 at 1:56 pm
Libby says:
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I am in the habit of, and have been for the last 10+ years, of disclosing compensation in my proposals to all clients including the possibility of contingent income. I am not obligated to let them know of trips taken by my agency principals, as I wouldn’t even know about them. No-one has ever directed me to place business with one carrier over another for financial gain and I wouldn’t do it if they did. Have I been to a ballgame or nice dinner as a thank you from my carriers for writing profitable business and to improve our working relationships? Yes. Does that have any effect on where I place business? No.
The $50 CSR incentive is just wrong and no agency I’ve ever worked in has allowed them to be paid.
And yes, I am white and over 50, but certainly not male. And I take it I was correct in my assumption that you are NOT an independent agent. Maybe you have an issue with your ethics since you seem to worry about others so much.
I have an ethical issue because I want others to be ethical as well? Really? That’s your comeback? I want everyone to be ethical, above-board and honest so that makes me a bad person.
LOL! That’s hysterical.
I want people to be ethical because it’s the right thing to do! Again, please read before you rant. I did not object to items of nominal value such as the occasional meal or minor gift — when it’s not tied to a specific transaction. If a company says, “hey, you give me a policy and I’ll give you tickets to the Orioles”, that’s a problem! Those same tickets when not tied to a specific transaction may be just fine.
If you can’t differentiate between a trip to Spain and a lunch or dinner or understand why the former might be a bit of a problem, there is something seriously wrong with your moral compass. At least you, Libby, seem to agree that cash payoffs tied to policy transactions are a no-no. I’m glad to hear no agency you’ve worked with would have allowed them. Unfortunately, not all agencies are that ethical.
What if I told you I was an independent agent for 28 years. I never accepted anything from my carriers except the occasional lunch or golf outing invitation. I never allowed anyone in my office to accept cash payments from any carrier. Does that make any difference? Does my being an agent or not change the ethical construct?
Maybe you’re objecting to my comment because it hits a little too close to home.
January 12, 2015 at 4:51 pm
Libby says:
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It hits nowhere near home for me, Don. I said I have no incentive to steer business and wouldn’t even if I did. If my agency principal goes on a trip to Spain, I really don’t care. It doesn’t affect my marketing decisions in the least.
As far as meals and games are concerned, I usually consider them part of the job. I’d rather be home with my family than entertaining some underwriter at night.
January 12, 2015 at 5:42 pm
Don Quixote says:
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Libby, you are missing the point. I am not disparaging agents in general. I am simply pointing out that ethical behavior is an important part of the profession. Do you agree?
If agents want to be respected in the marketplace, it is imperative they act in such a way as to avoid conflicts of interest.
You already stated the $50 incentive is wrong. Are you reversing that position or are you agreeing with me?
If you’re agreeing with me, which is what you said in your comment, “The $50 CSR incentive is just wrong and no agency I’ve ever worked in has allowed them to be paid.” then are you “disparaging” all agents???
No, you’re agreeing that a particular behavior between some carriers and some agents is wrong and should be stopped.
Your principal taking a trip is not a conflict for YOU it is a conflict for HIM/HER. Suppose your principal went to Spain and subsequently told you that you needed to direct more policies over to that carrier? How would you feel about that? Would you think it’s right or wrong?
Again, my comments are not an indictment of every agency. They are an indictment of certain unethical behaviors or behaviors that create an appearance of impropriety that I believe should be avoided by every ethical agency.
The insurance industry in general has a tough time upholding a favorable image in the marketplace. We don’t need practices like these out there. We need to do better.
January 13, 2015 at 5:20 pm
Libby says:
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Don – you were disparaging agents and it’s insulting. I’ve been in this business for 36 years and have met many people and worked in number of agencies. NONE of them participated in these practices, so I fail to see that there is a widespread problem. Are there unethical people in the insurance industry? Yes. Are they the majority? Absolutely not!
January 12, 2015 at 2:31 pm
Agent says:
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Don, you sound a lot like a NY know it all. Our agency does not place business or renew business just in the hopes of winning a trip nor do we accept cash bonuses to place business with any given carrier. Our customers are first and foremost with us and we pledge to do the best we can for them. Sometimes, we have to go elsewhere if the carrier goes up on their rates. It is a good thing we represent several. I have gone on trips with carriers on several occasions. Yes, they are nice, but there are business meetings with the carrier on important topics which are mandatory to attend. I make no apologies for doing this and I also make no apologies to accepting nice contingency checks from carriers since they are based on growth and loss ratio of the agency. As far as I am concerned, you can stick your opinion where the sun doesn’t shine.
When logic fails just tell ’em to stick it. Very professional.
January 12, 2015 at 4:54 pm
Libby says:
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It surprises me that you were an independent agent and speak so disparagingly of your compatriots. Where did you get this warped view of other agents?
January 12, 2015 at 1:32 pm
Carrier Guy says:
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I think to satisfy all parties the independent P&C agency side may need to go the way of stock brokerage/financial advisors. Particularly on the personal lines end many consumers WANT advice but few are willing to pay for it or the standalone risk managers would all be rich. If a regular home/auto consumer had to pay a per hour fee for advice outside of premium/commission they’d have a better argument to make concerning how the agent is paid.
15% on a measly $750 homeowners policy is only $112.50. How much advice do you suggest we give them for that paltry sum? More large, sophisticated commercial accounts are likely to request a fee, as the commission on millions of dollars in premium can quite a hefty amount. You have to sell your service, not an insurance policy. They can buy that anywhere.
Independent agents store fronts will be a thing of the past within the next five years. The death of the independent started five years ago and every year they lose more and more market share.
Dan, I understand your point, but I think there is a valuable place for the Independent Agent in the marketplace. Most agents add a great deal of value to the insurance transaction including advice and personal service.
Interestingly, the online carriers have been opening local offices in recent years (Geico & Progressive for example) so even they seem to recognize the value of a local, human, presence.
Online carriers spend so much on their silly ads that their pricing really isn’t any better than what can be obtained from Independent Agency carriers. So, basically for the same price you get professional advice and service from an Agent. Good luck getting that from a computer. Also, agents not only deal with the big national carriers, many also have access to local and regional insurers which may provide more locally relevant products and more personal service.
I’ll grant you, agents have an uphill battle when it comes to auto insurance, which is prolific online. However, try to buy a commercial policy from the lizard. Good luck. And remember, if you buy the wrong coverage it’s too darn bad. You have no recourse. You’re on the hook. That’s when you’ll wish you had consulted a professional Agent.
Dan, you seem to be the purveyor of doom. The predictions of the death of the Independent Agency system have been around for the last 30 years at least. The IA system is flexible and adjustments are made all the time. The small mom and pops are fading away except in small towns. Larger agents like myself bring them in and combine resources with more markets, better IT systems and we are doing just fine, thank you.
“Larger agens like myself…” You’re hilarious Agent. Back in the day, my book of business was bigger than your entire agency! About 2-1/2 times if I recall correctly.
A couple of observations. One is that these agents who are worried are locking the barn door after the horse is gone. Online shopping for car insurance has actually DROPPED the past 2 years as people find out they are not getting anything different by shopping online every 6 months.
Second, the type of people who DO shop every 6 months are not the right market for Independent Agents. We ‘train’ our customers that if they see a better deal, to let US know and we will see what we can do, because they don’t want to lose our service. and we have great success with that.
As far as Erik Sandquist’s quote about us being in danger of losing our dominance, we have not ‘dominated’ the personal lines market in about 30 years. We need to select the best clients we can, service the daylights out of them, and find ways to reach the good ones through whatever marketing makes us most comfortable.
Selecting in such a way that we control loss ratio can MORE than make up for possible slightly lower costs of the direct distribution channel. And i say possible because i’m not convinced that their expenses are really that much lower than our carriers. they may not have to pay agents commission, but billions of advertising dollars make up for a good part of that.
Oh and by the way, if the agents want something to actually worry about, be concerned that autonomous vehicles, which are in the pipeline for 4-5 years from now, and semi-autonomous vehicles (those capable of things like automatic braking and keeping you in lane) which are already here, have been shown to reduce accidents up to 97%.
That, plus the fact that if your vehicle is driving itself so the driver can’t really be considered negligent, are likely to make car insurance go completely away as far as the agent OR the online direct carriers are concerned.
Watch warren buffet, who is mostly these days taking GEICO cash flow and investing in railroads.
I bet ole Don has an attorney on speed dial or is an attorney. The problem with insurance today is lawyers have convinced people insurance agents only care about themselves when that is the furthest thing from the truth. The reason I am against online direct competition from carriers is a simple one- it encourages consumers to shop by price only and then when or if they have a problem they will just sue everyone. We offer our clients at a minimum of 3 or 4 different choices with each quote and let them decide the importance of claims handling, customer service or price. And I would say we are seeing about 70-80% of them always choose price over coverage, service and claims. It’s sad, but in today’s society of I want the government to take care of me like ole Don this is what you get. How about lawyers and accoutants disclosing how they get paid? You for or against that?
i agree choosing by price is not a good trend, but unfortunately the middle class feels (and probably rightfully so) that they have to trim expenses whenever and wherever they can because of the constantly increasing ‘great divide’ between the wealthy and the poor. Most people would not like to shop at Walmart if they really had the choice, but walmart has basically succeeded in lowering their prices by shafting their employees and in general being a bad corporate citizen. it’s a vicious circle and the whole economy is in trouble if we don’t break it. it doesn’t matter how many cool new things in invent and manufacturer if the broad masses of people can’t afford to buy it.
Walmart lowering their prices by shafting employees? Do you realize that Walmart is the largest employer in this country and probably the world? Your class warfare rhetoric is not making it on this forum. Bad corporate citizen????? Wow, what planet are you from?
You said, “The small mom and pops are fading away except in small towns. Larger agents like myself bring them in and combine resources with more markets, better IT systems and we are doing just fine, thank you.” Sounds like you are the Walmart of the insurance agency business. Bigger = better.
So you like to continue to insult me Ron? You aren’t even an agency principal, just a desk jockey at a brokerage. Your incite to the real business world is shockingly inadequate.
January 19, 2015 at 7:38 am
Ron says:
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Agent,
Where was the insult? Is comparing you to the largest, most successful retailer in the world an insult to you? I thought you would be flattered.
In addition, how did you come up with, “You aren’t even an agency principal, just a desk jockey at a brokerage. Your incite to the real business world is shockingly inadequate.” from my post? Please stay on topic, if you are capable.
January 12, 2015 at 5:28 pm
Don Quixote says:
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First of all, it was the author of the article who mentioned that insurance agents’ goals in joining cluster groups are, “principally to enhance access to carriers and to increase their commission.” That is what sparked my original comment. I think agencies need to do it better and cleaner now more than ever given the competition in the marketplace, which is the subject of this article.
I did not ask anyone to disclose how much they are paid and nobody mentioned suing anybody. I am NOT against contingent commissions or bonus programs that reward sales or profitability of an agency, in the aggregate. However, I do not believe in direct cash payoffs to CSRs or Producers for quotes or polices. I also question the practice of individuals accepting high value items such as trips, which could easily be perceived by the public as unduly influencing the individual. At the very least there is an appearance of impropriety in those situations and it should be avoided by the ethical agency.
This type of ethics policy is in place in much of corporate America today. The only reason I can see to argue against it is that you like getting these benefits and the only reason not to disclose them to your clients is that you know it will make your clients worry about your impartiality. Why be in that position in the first place? Why not refuse these gifts? If they mean that much to you then maybe they are affecting your judgment.
I’m not sure where a simple ethics comment became a discussion about lawyers and big government, but, for the record, I am not an attorney nor do I play one on TV. I think tort reform is way overdue and the legal system in this country is badly broken. We should implement a loser-pays system (the English Rule) like other nations. But, that’s another topic for another day…
Cotyre: I agree with you regarding the direct writers. Most of their so-called savings seem to evaporate after 6 months and I have heard the claim service is not up to par. They typically seem to sell minimal limits that potentially leave their clients exposed to excess verdicts. Carriers have also used their website “default” coverage settings to hoodwink clients and have been fined for it. However, like it or not, they are here to stay and they will capture more and more of the market as the younger generations take over.
I think that the way for Independent Agents to compete is to act as true professionals in every aspect of the business, which should include having in place a strong ethics policy. Only agents that provide valuable advice, world class service, and who are truly working in the best interests of their clients, not just to enhance their bonus or qualify for gifts, will be successful in the long term.
I also 100% agree that shopping by price alone is foolhardy. You are exactly on point that the client should look at a combination of coverage, service, claims handling, and price with price being the lowest on the scorecard. It may not be easy, but it’s the agent’s job to sell that philosophy to the client.
To sum this up, if someone is taking a payment that they would be embarrassed or afraid to tell their client about, they shouldn’t take it. I would not be embarrassed to disclose I receive a commission on the sale of the policy or that I potentially receive a bonus from my carriers if my book is profitable with good retention, etc. I would be embarrassed to say I’m getting fifty bucks cash from carrier X if I write your policy with them. I would also be embarrassed to even try to excuse my all-expense-paid trip to Vegas as a “business meeting” when my carrier’s office is in Ohio and I’m in Maryland. Nobody in their right mind would buy that excuse.
Perhaps I’m misguided, but I believe strongly in avoiding conflicts of interest and upholding the highest possible ethical standards. I seem to have really touched a nerve on this page, which is disturbing since I would hope most insurance professionals would agree that ethics are a critical element of our business and that conflicts of interest – even apparent ones – should be avoided or at the very least cured by full disclosure to the client.
You may not agree with my specific examples, but I would surely hope you would at least agree in principal. In any case, base name-calling is unwarranted and unprofessional.
Interestingly, a quick Google search revealed a multitude of articles that seem to agree with my points. Here are a couple of examples:
An agent placing business based on compensation is an individual ethics issue, not an industry or marketing channel issue, so why it was brought up regarding online insurance sales I’m not sure. There are people at online and direct sales insurers that talk to and advise prospects and policyholders, and they get paid, and I’ll bet there’s some sort of bonus structure/incentive pay available to them.
Online sales are a threat, and will take a certain share of the market, but if insurance company service centers are any indication, insurers are incapable of replacing the service a local agent provides. I use the service centers (both personal and commercial) of several companies. While they’re generally okay for routine things like issuing a cert or a change of car, they’ve failed completely with more complicated situations, not asking questions that for me are routine, resulting in big gaps in coverage. Part of their problem is lack of experience, which can be overcome, but another part is lack of familiarity with the policyholder, and I don’t know if that can be mastered in a call center/online environment.
Consumers might like the perceived cost savings of buying online, but if that leads to an uncovered claim they’ll be running back to the services of a professional. Now, whether that professional will be a traditional insurance agent or some sort of online, or local, paid insurance advisor, that I don’t know.
IL Agent, I have had a few companies making a pitch about turning over business to their call centers for servicing. They say it will free us up to write new business. I have resisted that because I don’t want to lose business if the call center screws something up. We don’t have a problem servicing our clients. The customer knows we have their back and will do the best we can for them. How do you think a call center geek would respond to a customer who is receiving one of those 25% rate increases and is jumping up and down about it? Would they contact the agent in time to save the account or would they just let it go? Then, the agent finds out the customer moved their business due to dissatisfaction. Sorry, I am not a fan of a company taking over the servicing of accounts. Now, Ron can call me an idiot again.
I’m not sure I’d use the call centers if I had a bigger agency, but I’m a one man office and they give my clients a bigger service window. You do have to keep an eye on them, client service can’t be abandoned to the call center. To be fair, if a client calls about a rate increase or tells the call center rep they’re shopping, or if the rep can’t seem to satisfy the caller for whatever reason, the caller usually get transferred to me.
IL, how much does the call center company charge you in reduced commission for servicing your business? For the one I am thinking of, I believe they take about 3% of the commission.
Depends on the company, but it’s typically 2.5% or 3% of the premium, not the commission. In other words, the commission is reduced by 3 percentage points. It’s less than a CSR would cost, even part-time. Is it worth it? I think so, not so much for my workload but for the extended hours they’re open. And for billing questions. Especially for billing questions.
January 13, 2015 at 5:16 pm
Agent says:
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Well IL, each agent must do whatever they think best for their business. We have about 2,000 Personal Lines customers spread out between 5 Standard Markets. We just haven’t had that much trouble servicing our clients. It certainly helps to have a great operating system that can pull info on a customer or go into a company site to get billing info. We have customers coming through the front door saying they want to pay their premium and many do not have their billing statement. We pull it in less than 30 seconds, see what it is, accept the payment and sweep the payment to the company which posts immediately. Works like a charm every time, especially if the customer is a bit late on the payment. USPS is not very reliable at getting a payment there in time so the sweep is great.
January 13, 2015 at 5:49 pm
ILAgent says:
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Accepting payments is easy. It’s the question around renewal time with multiple changes pending and the premium on some sort of plan that the insured can’t seem to stick to, so they get into late/cancel status and then pay more than the min due thinking that’ll solve everything, but they don’t like the late pay being charged that the company might remove for the right reason like there’s a full moon or it’s the billing reps b-day, or they won’t because this is the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th time the policy has been in cancel status this term, so not only is the late pay sticking but the company wants the balance by end of day along with a signed no loss statement. I prefer this to be a policyholder/company interaction.
January 14, 2015 at 11:37 am
ILAgent says:
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I was mistaken as to the cost. It depends on the company, but is less than 2% of premium. One personal lines company is at 1.5% and another is charging 1.3%. The CL companies charge a similar %.
January 12, 2015 at 3:35 pm
Bill says:
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In my experience, those who use a similar terminology to “old white male” have a political agenda, not a business one. I’m a carrier rep and we do offer one incentive to write more business annually, but no cash bonuses “tied to individual transactions/customers”. These incentives are rather popular and are not unethical, because management meetings allow company execs to hear from their top agents on pertinent issues and topics, which in turn allows us to improve our products and services. It’s called a “win/win”.
Bill, Don may be Ron is disguise. As a former “actuary”, he said companies don’t listen to agents in meetings on relevant topics to improve their products and services. They just put their algorithms together and do their thing. A company that doesn’t listen to their agents about the market is one who will ultimately fail.
Agent, good point. I have agents tell me all the time about meeting our company president and what they got from the conversation, no matter the setting. That said, I appreciate what he said in his 5:28 pm post. There are a lot of companies that have the APPEARANCE of ethics, like Allstate, but when their claims adjuster scrws your customer, you realize it’s just talk.
You really are just an idiot, aren’t you? Don’s point has zero to do with anyhting I have ever mentioned. And I have never been an “actuary”. In addition, I did not say companies do not listen to their agents. What I said was that companies do not make decisions based on whet their agents say.
Couldn’t you just go tothe carrieer’s home ioffice for your management meetings? Why does it need to be somewhere nice?
It seems like the agents on here disputing what he is saying do not understand his point. He has no problem with you going on trips and receiving contingency checks or any other significant compensation about your commission. He just believes they should be disclosed to your customers who are indirectly paying for those trips and contingency checks.
If he has struck a nerve, you either need to work on your reading comprehension or rethink your ethics.
I wish we could start a “we passed reading comprehension 101” group here and have our own comment section. That would resolve a TON of the semi-regular pointless back-and-forth that happens on this forum when Person A keeps trying to bring Person B back to the actual point which was made in the first place. End mini-rant.
January 13, 2015 at 9:59 am
Agent says:
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Ron, I happen to be a successful idiot who has been in this business for many years. Tell me how an idiot succeeds. Give me some of your Algorithms and predict how long an idiot succeeds in this business. Your failure to understand how business works is now legendary. Just for your information, we go to plenty of meetings that are not trips. Agents meet in regional settings every year to go over their plans and address concerns of agents.
By the way, these trips are not handed out to all agents, just the ones who grow and meet the requirements for production with good loss ratios. I know that is a difficult concept for your pea sized brain. By the way, your spelling and typing skills need a lot of work. My ethics are just fine, thank you.
I would venture to say you think President Obama is an idiot in addition to Senator Reid and representative Pelosi and they are all very successful.
Knowing how to run a successful agency does not, in and of itself, speak to one’s overall intrelligence. There are successful ididots in nearly all industries.
I would much prefer to have solid reading comprehnsion over typing skills. Apparently you prefer the opposite.
Nobody said the trips are not earned. Do you advise your clients that you go on trips paid for by the company based on growth and profitability goals that you meet, in part, due to where you place their policies?
Who questioned YOUR ethics. Boy are you defensive.
January 13, 2015 at 11:36 am
SWFL Agent says:
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Ron/Don/Agent,
Guess I’ll jump back into this. Neither one of you are “idiots” based on the dictionary definition. Everyone has their own talents. We’re getting bogged down in the weeds on the “ do you tell your clients” and the ethics issues. I would bet that most of us know that it’s not good business or ethical to promote the wrong product to a customer just in order to make more money or earn a trip. On the other hand, if I have a market that says: If you can figure out a way to reach more customers that fit our product and you can achieve certain volume goals, you earn “X”. Then there is no reason to inform a client of “X” if the policy is the best option for the client and the price cannot be modified for the client (ie personal lines ).
January 21, 2015 at 2:00 pm
Insurance Nerd says:
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Dear God, Agent – let the whole ‘algorithms’ response to ‘all things Ron’ go!
January 14, 2015 at 12:19 pm
Agent says:
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Il, we also try to put as many of EFT as possible for bank draft. It works pretty well, but there can be some issues when the rates go up and they start having a higher draft taken out. Some of the customers take more stroking than others. I don’t know how a call center explains these things to people, but I would imagine they have a tough time explaining higher premiums to a customer.
Actually Ron, you hit the nail on the head about the incompetence of this President, Pelosi & Reid. Why do you think the nation rejected their agenda in the mid terms? It wasn’t because they are successful in recovering America. They are all serial liars of the first magnitude.
Really Ron? Please provide me an example of successful idiots in nearly all industries. Your reading comprehension and typing skills are abysmal. Perhaps you should sign up for two more years of free education at community colleges that Obama is proposing. Take some courses on typing and reading. Stan should be excited now. He can get in on the ground floor and not have to worry about getting a job with his three degrees. By the way, it will only cost $60 Billion, but who is counting?
Are you the appointed IJ police Rosenblatt? Are either you or Ron agents or just broker/agent employees who think they are smarter than Independent Agents? Have either of you ever started a business, made payroll, paid taxes on it, hired or fired employees, got appointed with a company to sell their insurance products, paid all bills for doing business and sold all forms of Personal, Business & Life Insurance. I even sold Individual & Group Health until Obama came along and screwed up the whole health insurance business. What are your accomplishments outside of posting on IJ and bragging about your links?
I will concede that there are some things in which you are more experienced and intelligent than me.
Have you ever worked as a product manager, actuary or company executive?
My accomplishments are tied to making money for agents like you through improved product offerings, establishing underwriting guidelines and pricing that increased PIF and written premium, lowered loss ratios and increased profits for companies who then pay your commissions and contingency bonuses so you can make payroll and pay taxes, and send you on nice trips.
YOU’RE WELCOME!!
Now I broker business which makes lots of money for agents who do not have access to certain markets and several companies. You make a couple of employees happy. I make thousands of people happy.
Bob demanded I point out EVERYONE’S insults on here, or else I’m not being fair. You previously told me I don’t call out the left-leaning people on this site by name when they insult you, and I need to play fair.
So yes – I am the official IJ comment police as both you and Bob have told me that’s what I need to do. This is on you two.
Maybe – JUST MAYBE – people will stop insulting each other.
That’s be great, then I wouldn’t have to do this anymore!
Rosenblatt, It wasn’t me asking you to be the IJ Police Monitor. Perhaps Bob said it, but I didn’t see the post. You have some serious work to do with Libby and others who insult me with every post. I don’t let her get away with it by the way. She, booger, Ins102, Planet, have all been reported to IJ for their recent actions. When are you going to call them out for their rabid liberal rants and insults. You have also insulted my intelligence as well. Those who live in glass houses should not throw rocks.
Having said that, I apologize if I have offended anyone on this blog. What is the penalty for speaking the truth as I know it? As the monitor, are you saying that I am not allowed to give the Conservative viewpoint?
January 13, 2015 at 5:11 pm
Rosenblatt says:
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Agent – you have specifically told me in the past that I need to call out BY NAME those people who insulted you. Agreed?
The only thing I’m calling people out on are PERSONAL insults. There are way too many comments to catch each group generalization in near-real time.
“You have also insulted my intelligence as well.”
True. However, I gave you numerous opportunities to prove me wrong, and before settling on “hypocritical troll”, I backed up the validity of my insults using your own **EXACT** words to show you why I believed that to be true.
AS LONG AS YOU CAN SUPPORT YOUR STATEMENTS WITH FACTUAL EVIDENCE IF REQUESTED, THERE IS NO PENALTY FOR THE TRUTH. Saying “I read this” or “I think you once said” doesn’t count as evidence. Also, exaggerating someone’s statement to make a point is punishable by penalty too (all penalties are a reduction of one I.J. comment credit, which is totally made up and I’m not keeping score)
“As the monitor, are you saying that I am not allowed to give the Conservative viewpoint?”
Of course you can, I just suggest leaving out any personal attacks or insults when you’re expressing your viewpoint.
January 14, 2015 at 12:41 pm
Agent says:
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Rosenblatt, please explain to an idiot agent what “That’d” means. Is that common language where you come from and what was your point. Inquiring minds want to know.
January 14, 2015 at 1:10 pm
Rosenblatt says:
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Okay Agent – here it goes. I posted “That’s be great…”
“That’s” is a typo as it reads “That is be great…”
There’s no edit button here, so I replied to my post and amended “That’s” to “That’d” making it “That would be great…”
The * denotes an edit was made.
So the line went from “That is be great” to “That would be great” and I accomplished the edit with my “*That’d” post.
Got it?
January 14, 2015 at 1:32 pm
Libby says:
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He’s trying to mock you saying that’d is not a word. But, newsflash Agent, it’s in the dictionary!
Translations
that’d
(ˈðӕtəd) that’ll (ˈðӕtl) , that’s (ðӕts)
short for that had / that would, that will, that is.
January 14, 2015 at 5:29 pm
Agent says:
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Thank you for explaining your one word post Rosenblatt. I am just a stupid agent and I am used to 8-10 paragraphs from you on about every subject under discussion. I think that is the first time I have ever seen “That’d” as a post. How hard would “That would” be to post followed by a completed sentence? This is not an insult by the way.
January 15, 2015 at 8:41 am
Libby says:
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The hell it’s not.
January 13, 2015 at 5:46 pm
Libby says:
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Agent – any person that obtains an insurance license and a carrier appointment is an Agent. You are an agency principal who employs agents and other employees. Got it?
Libby, yes I am the agency principal and the one who pays the bills, makes the payroll, makes company appointments and pays commission to the “licensed agents” in my office. The licensed agents also include my CSR’s, but they do not make the decisions of the business, got it?
January 14, 2015 at 12:46 pm
Libby says:
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I’ve always had it, Agent. It’s you that seems confused by the title “Agent.” I am an Agent, just like you.
And you have payroll and all the bills that go with running an agency because you choose to. I do not choose to. It doesn’t make you better than me, so quit acting like it does.
January 13, 2015 at 3:47 pm
Ron says:
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Rosenblatt,
I humbly accept my penalty and would like to extend my apologies to Agent and anyone in the IJ community who was offended.
Ron – Let me check with Bob & Agent to see if it’s acceptable to rescind an insult and get your IJ comment credit back. You’re the first person to try and I didn’t write the rules.
FWIW – seriously – I do not care one bit if people insult each other on this site. It’s a freaking internet comment section after all! This stemmed from other discussions in different articles (not worth rehashing here).
I am not requesting my credit back. Unlike some of the Conservatives on this blog I will accept my penalty, repent and try to learn from my mistakes.
Thank you for your efforts and optimism.
January 13, 2015 at 4:42 pm
Rosenblatt says:
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It takes a big man to accept a penalty and try to improve themselves by looking at the situation as a learning experience. Many people on this site, myself included, can learn a lot from the way you handled this (totally absurd “policing” of comments :).
January 13, 2015 at 4:44 pm
Rosenblatt says:
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…and yes, I sadly realize the irony of me previously stating we should have a “I passed reading comp 101” group here, and then failing to use those skills and thinking you wanted me to give you the IJ credit back. Derp-a-derp on myself.
January 13, 2015 at 5:26 pm
Agent says:
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Rosenblatt, I am still awaiting you calling out Libby and seeking her apology and showing contrition for her way out of control comments and insults. Do you think she will abide with your rules or not?
By the way, I will not pull up your links anymore than Libby’s. I don’t want any cookies or viruses to clean out. The one exception will be her furnishing Obama’s education records and that will not happen because they are probably in a vault somewhere and will never see the light of day.
Agent – I am not retroactively reviewing articles or comments looking for offenders.
“Do you think she will abide with your rules or not?”
She hasn’t insulted anyone in this thread, correct? If Libby has insulted you in this article, please show me where I’m wrong.
However, I have already called out Libby for personal attacks on others at least once today in a different article.
The IJ police did not start until today and it doesn’t have a time machine. The past is the past – the police are looking for offenders in the present and future.
Please note the IJ Police credo: We WILL call out PERSONAL ATTACKS & those who exaggerate someone’s statement to twist their words around and give them false meaning. If someone attacks a group of people, the IJ police are not responsible.
We just opened today, after all. Others should feel free to call out those attacking a group of people for making ‘short-sighted generalizations’ and provide evidence to support their arguments.
PS – I find your refusal to only open a specific link very short-sighted and not conducive to having open and honest discussions. REGARDLESS OF MY BELIEF – IT’S YOUR RIGHT TO DO THAT.
The IJ police would like to ask Agent, in good faith, that when you include links as reference, you do not expect or demand people open them since you are not showing the same courtesy.
The IJ police will click your links, and others might too, but you should not get upset if you post a link and people (e.g. Libby) refuse to click it since that are the rules by which you’re playing.
Getting upset at someone for not opening your link when you refuse to open links yourself would be hypocritical, yes?
Now…if Libby asked you for a link, you included it, and THEN she said she wasn’t going to click it, that WILL draw the ire of the IJ comment police due to the hypocrisy.
January 14, 2015 at 11:49 am
Libby says:
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Rosenblatt – Agent doesn’t know how to cut and paste a link. That’s why he says “I read an article” or “I heard blah, blah, blah.” I tried to teach him how to post a link, but he’s too lazy to do it.
January 14, 2015 at 11:59 am
Rosenblatt says:
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Libby: “Agent doesn’t know how to cut and paste a link…he’s too lazy to do it.”
You are penalized one IJ credit for calling Agent lazy and one IJ credit for exaggerating that he doesn’t know how to post a link (I’ve seen him do it before).
-The sole & founding member of the IJ comment police
January 14, 2015 at 12:48 pm
Libby says:
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OK. Can you give my total number of current IJ credits? I want to be sure I have enough to keep insulting Agent.
January 14, 2015 at 12:48 pm
Agent says:
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Rosenblatt, you don’t have to go back very far to find the insults. Try about the last three articles where there has been heavy comment. The reason why I don’t post links is that several commenters said many of the links have cookies or viruses attached. I am not going to post them or click on any others. I will direct where I have seen the information and people that want to Google them can view them or go onto a website to see the article. The problem I have with Liberals is that they never believe anything from the Conservative viewpoint since they are married to the Liberal agenda.
January 14, 2015 at 12:50 pm
Libby says:
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But I will add, if he can tell you the title and source of a particular article, but will not post the link when he knows how to, that would also make him lazy. I am going to appeal your decision to call that an insult and deduct an IJ point. Can you explain the appeals process to me? I couldn’t find it in the IJ rulebook.
January 14, 2015 at 12:53 pm
Libby says:
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Agent – if you viewed the article yourself, then a cookie was already saved in your computer. You don’t get cookies by posting a link. You get them from visiting a website. Have you considered taking an internet class?
January 14, 2015 at 12:54 pm
Libby says:
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I am abiding by the rules. The rules are if I personally insult you, I am called out by name and one IJ credit is deducted from my account. I’m cool with that.
January 14, 2015 at 1:32 pm
Rosenblatt says:
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Agent – care to answer my question? In the future — “Getting upset at someone for not opening your link when you refuse to open links yourself would be hypocritical, yes?” Please advise if you agree or not.
Agent – Like I said before in all capital letters, REGARDLESS OF MY BELIEF – IT’S YOUR RIGHT TO DO THAT with not opening or providing links. I understand your points, but I don’t agree at all. And that’s okay. We live in America. You’re entitled to your opinion, and I’m entitled to tell you I think your logic is faulty and I completely disagree.
Agent – “Rosenblatt, you don’t have to go back very far to find the insults.” I’m not going back AT ALL. I’m leaving the past in the past and am dealing with personal insults starting with yesterday’s columns.
Libby – Everyone’s IJ credits are kept in a secret vault under lock-and-key. I’m sorry, but I can’t tell you how many credits you have left only because I just don’t have that information to share!
Libby – there is no formal appeals process. Just voicing your disagreement and laying out your argument logically and hopefully with evidence is all that’s needed.
Libby – Although it’s borderline, I will give you back one IJ credit for calling Agent lazy. As you so eloquently stated “if he can tell you the title and source of a particular article, but will not post the link when he knows how to, that would also make him lazy.” That is a valid point since it will take him longer to type out ‘This is from Fox News, Jan 14, 2014 and “This is the title of the article”‘ than it would be to highlight the URL, hit copy, then hit paste. Upon appeal, the original penalty has been rescinded.
January 14, 2015 at 1:36 pm
Rosenblatt says:
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Agent “The problem I have with Liberals is that they never believe anything from the Conservative viewpoint since they are married to the Liberal agenda.”
FYI, Agent, I intentionally didn’t write anything about that line since I stand by my prior comment that the IJ police are not getting involved when someone generalizes about a group of people.
January 14, 2015 at 1:39 pm
Libby says:
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Rosenblatt – thank you for your careful consideration of my appeal. I feel I have been vindicated.
As far as the IJ police responding to generalizations, I agree wholeheartedly. However, that would not prevent an individual from commenting on said generalization if they felt compelled to do so. That came from a recent update to the IJ manual.
January 14, 2015 at 1:50 pm
Rosenblatt says:
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I agree, Libby – those who make sweeping generalizations about groups of people can certainly be called out by others about them.
Like anything, though, it’s HOW the response is done that matters.
“You’re an idiot if you really think _____, you moron” = punishable by the IJ police
“I can’t believe you really think _____ is true. That’s so short-sighted”, or something like that = not punishable by the IJ police
January 14, 2015 at 2:12 pm
Libby says:
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LOL! I understand Rosenblatt. Since Agent and bob tend to make my blood boil, I respond more likely with scenario #1 to them. But I try to take the #2 approach with most others.
January 15, 2015 at 12:45 pm
Agent says:
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Just curious Rosenblatt, but did you get this idea of IJ monitor/fines from the movie “Demolition Man” starring Sylvester Stallone? He got fined by the future society he was in for his insults and language. The machine nearly ran out of fines on him and Wesley Snipes, his foe. “Be well Rosenblatt”.
January 15, 2015 at 12:53 pm
Libby says:
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Agent – the idea came from you and Bob. You demanded that he call out other posters for insulting.
January 15, 2015 at 1:17 pm
Rosenblatt says:
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Agent – I’m impressed you figured out how to post a reply in-thread when the post you’re responding to didn’t have a “reply” button on it. You’re learning! :D
Agent says: Just curious Rosenblatt, but did you get this idea of IJ monitor/fines from the movie “Demolition Man”….
Libby says: Agent – the idea came from you and Bob. You demanded that he call out other posters for insulting.
Here’s an instance where the BOTH of you are correct! Yes, Agent, the phrasing I’m using when I ‘fine’ people was totally stolen from Demolition Man (do not ask me how to use the 3 seashells though!), but the idea of being the IJ comment police and calling out – by name – those who insult others came from you and Bob.
January 13, 2015 at 1:52 pm
blu lightning says:
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This has turned into an interesting conversation regarding income transparancy, but there are several other things which should be mentioned.
1. There is a whole generation of consumers who, by their actions trust shopping for insurance by computer or smartphone more than trusting either an IA or an EA. In part, agents still have a negative connotation right in there with car salesmen.
2. This is already being born out by the decrease in the numbers of IAs as well as the ever increasing average age of the “typical” agent.
3. As mentioned in IJ as well as other sources, Google among others is getting into the insurance business. What makes this powerful is that they already collect and store a huge amount of buying data every keystroke on each of us. THat can be a game changer if they either want to act as a carrier or as an agent or both.
4. There are as many ads-and not merely “flo” where the consumer is being led to the carrier who will provide them with a great customer experience(and if you use the term service, then you are stuck in the 90’s). Regardless if its an IA or EA carrier, you NEVER hear about how the agent can help solve your insurance problem. I can’t tell you the last time I saw a Big I ad-its been years. And I go back to when Raymond Burr was the voice of the Big I-and because of that extended ad campaign agents immediately had a brand identification that they don’t have today.
I’m an old guy-on the company side and I hope to be retired before the looming changes on the carrier side make me as useful as an IBM Selectric III, but I can see that there are beaucoup changes coming on both sides of the ball.
For the agents out there, you might want to think about how you can be vital-not to just the clients you’ve had for 20 years, but how you can make a difference to the prospective buyers who right now don’t see the IA or EA as being someone who can not only provide them with help or advice on what policy to buy, but also how you and only you can help them with a claim and not some adjuster sitting in an office 1000 miles away.
Compensation-and transparency is something to consider but is not the only thing to take a new look at because doing business the same way you’ve done it over the last 20 years will not be a successful business model to follow.
Rosenblatt, I believe you missed two more Libby insults, but I will let it go since you are a busy monitor. You may have to hire someone to stay up with the veiled insults and have a committee to decide to penalize a commenter.
By the way, I will not give up my Conservative viewpoint under any circumstances to get in the good graces of liberals on this site. They are what they are and I am what I am.
“Rosenblatt, I believe you missed two more Libby insults”
That’s entirely possible. Please tell me EXACTLY where those insults are located – the name of the article and the date & time of her post – and I’ll check it out.
…many independent agents join others in an association, alliance or cluster, but while small businesses in other industries may do this to bolster their limited resources or to network with peers, insurance agents’ goals are principally to enhance access to carriers and to increase their commission.
Bingo. Customers need to ask their agent, “How do you get paid? Do you accept gifts from your carriers like fancy trips or outings? Do your CSRs accept cash bounties from carriers for policies written?” If any of the answers are “yes” then the customer needs to look elsewhere.
Sure the agents get a commission, they need to be paid for their services, but these other “payoffs” are not above-board and can slant an “independent” agent unfairly toward another company — not necessarily the best company for the customer’s needs.
Agents have been in bed with Progressive and other direct digital companies for years. They are willing to lie down with the enemy when it suits them, but then complain about competition. Really?
Gifts, trips & outings can be offered by vendors & suppliers to just about any business type. This isn’t exclusive to insurance. Happens in many industries from autos to swimming pool supplies. If consumers asked this question for all products, the would have a pretty short list of places to shop.
The local pool guy or car dealer is not in a fiduciary relationship with the customer. Insurance is a different type of product that can’t be compared to the retail sale of widgets. I seriously doubt that the sales clerk at Walmart or Best Buy gets sent on trips to Spain or Hawaii by the company’s vendors.
Agents can continue to follow these “old school” practices at their own peril. Contingent commissions have already come under attack and it’s likely some of these “off book” inducements will be looked at carefully by regulators and consumer advocates in the future.
Eventually, customers will lose faith in the impartiality of the “independent” agent and will seek advice and service elsewhere — including online.
If independent agents want to be seen as true professionals, they should implement a code of ethics and refuse any gifts or payoffs from their carriers outside of the normal commission structure. Exceptions could be made for nominal items like company branded items or the occasional lunch or local golf outing. But high-value trips, cash payments, and other hidden (from the customer) inducements should be refused by the agency to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.
Certainly if a CSR or producer is getting a $50 cash payment from a carrier for each new policy, this should be disclosed to the customer at the very least!
Such ethics policies are commonplace in businesses these days — for a good reason.
http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/about/services/integrity/coi/gifts/upload/HCCA-Gifts-Survey.pdf
If the carrier offering the $50 incentive is the best fit for the customer, why would you disclose the incentive? That would very possibly cause the customer to question their new coverage to their detriment.
I don’t think you’ve thought this through very well.
I think I’ve thought it through quite thoroughly and I’m having trouble understanding why you are arguing that it’s okay to conceal these types of incentives from your customers. I would disclose the $50 incentive because I am honest.
To quote your response, “That would very possibly cause the customer to question their new coverage to their detriment.”
EXACTLY! Why accept such gifts if for no other reason than to avoid even the appearance of impropriety? Why not let the customer feel you are being open and honest with them at all times, not hiding compensation that could reasonably be expected to cloud your or your CSR’s judgment? Is that $50 gift card or that golf vacation or that trip to Spain soooo important to you that you won’t refuse it? If it is, then I’d say your judgment IS impacted by it!
Why is everyone here arguing against openness and honesty with their customers? Kind of scary from my (the customer) point of view. I guess agents really don’t understand what the customer is thinking after all. I guess that’s one reason online sales are such a major threat…
Nobody here has an issue with transparency and honesty, but just how far do you go? I get a box of chocolates at Christmas time from one of my carriers. Do I disclose this? That’s absurd.
Personally, I have no financial incentive to direct business anywhere, as I am compensated based on retention and the size of my book. I do what I do with my clients best interests in mind – ALWAYS. It’s sad that you seem to think that is the exception instead of the rule.
@ Libby, I’m glad you don’t have an issue with transparency, but I don’t think you can say “nobody here” does either. It seems quite a number of folks really do have an issue with it. Big time. I really seem to have hit a nerve! Kind of amazing and much worse than I expected. It’s a shame, really.
BTW: Again, I stated that there is no issue IMHO regarding nominal gifts such as your hypothetical box of chocolates. Your box of chocolates at Christmas time was not tied to giving that carrier any specific policy was it? It was an annual thank you for the relationship, right? Well, that’s okay.
On the other hand, if they promise you a $25 box of chocolate to your CSR for every policy you send them, then I have a problem with it. Just like I have a problem with any payoff that is tied to individual transactions/customers. I really hope you and the others posting here can see the difference.
It sounds like you have a fair and reasonable incentive plan that has little or no conflict of interest with the interests of your clients and I think that’s great. I wish everyone would be on the same page. It would serve our industry’s reputation well to be as honest and above board as you in all our dealings with clients and carriers.
I, too, disagree with tying a cash bonus to the number of policies written. I have heard of carriers tying a bonus for number of apps or policies quoted. I’m on the fence with that, as it is not tied to placing business. But my fear would be the CSR would quote only that carrier and would steer business by default so I am against it.
Many times these “trips” are actually management meetings where company executives hear from their top agents on pertinent issues and topics. In addition, it is usually the agency principal that particiates in these trips and rarely are they the top producers in the office.
Having a large volume with a carrier, and thereby being eligible for gifts and trips, can work in a client’s best interest when negotiating pricing &/or claim problems.
Not everyone is “on the take” as you insinuate. We wouldn’t stay in business if that was our motivation and it’s insulting that you even hint at it. Let me guess. You’re not an independent agent.
Yeah, because it’s necessary to have a “management meeting” in Spain.
Hey, maybe I’m wrong about this. I can admit that. If it’s really above board, just disclose it to your customers and I’m fine with it. Problem solved.
However, if you’re unwilling or afraid to disclose it to the customer then you ought to take a look in the mirror because you really are “on the take” even if you won’t admit it.
If you are an independent agent, I’m guessing you are over the age of 50, white and male… Old school to the end.
I wouldn’t disagree that some incentives are not well conceived. Example –Company marketing rep provides per policy incentive to CSR without owner knowledge. On the other hand, I am not sure how a contingent commission that encourages the design & implementation of creative/aggressive marketing practices that results in extraordinary premium growth is a violation of the fiduciary responsibility. The presence of a contingent commission doesn’t necessarily mean the price is higher.
Not sure what the white male over 50 has to do with this discussion. Do you feel inadequate because you’re not a white male over 50?
I don’t know about you SWFL, but I frequently end up with a lot of carriers that have very similar premiums. Incentive and commission rate are meaningless even in those instances. How do you pay claims? Do I know management on a first name basis? Can I fix any issues with a simple phone call? Those are the questions I ask.
If you’ll note my comments, I did not take issue with contingent commissions or any standard commission structure. The state of New York took issue, not me.
I think a commission structure that provides incentive to the overall agency for sales and profitability makes perfect sense. Gifts and payola to influence individuals to direct individual policies to a certain carrier is a lousy way to do business. Accepting those types of gifts is a lousy way to do business.
If a carrier is that desperate that it has to pay fifty bucks for a quote or a policy, then I’d question why the agency is placing the business there in the first place.
Any ethical agency principal should have a policy for his/her agency that prohibits accepting gifts, other than those of nominal value, from any carrier. All gifts should be disclosed to agency management.
Mr. Solvent has some excellent points. The carrier’s claims handling, their ability/willingness to take care of problems when they arise, their responsiveness to submissions, etc. should be the basis for the agency’s decision to place business there. Not “oh they sent me to Disney so I’ll give them the business”.
If you don’t see the difference, I’d say you’re part of the problem.
I am in the habit of, and have been for the last 10+ years, of disclosing compensation in my proposals to all clients including the possibility of contingent income. I am not obligated to let them know of trips taken by my agency principals, as I wouldn’t even know about them. No-one has ever directed me to place business with one carrier over another for financial gain and I wouldn’t do it if they did. Have I been to a ballgame or nice dinner as a thank you from my carriers for writing profitable business and to improve our working relationships? Yes. Does that have any effect on where I place business? No.
The $50 CSR incentive is just wrong and no agency I’ve ever worked in has allowed them to be paid.
And yes, I am white and over 50, but certainly not male. And I take it I was correct in my assumption that you are NOT an independent agent. Maybe you have an issue with your ethics since you seem to worry about others so much.
I have an ethical issue because I want others to be ethical as well? Really? That’s your comeback? I want everyone to be ethical, above-board and honest so that makes me a bad person.
LOL! That’s hysterical.
I want people to be ethical because it’s the right thing to do! Again, please read before you rant. I did not object to items of nominal value such as the occasional meal or minor gift — when it’s not tied to a specific transaction. If a company says, “hey, you give me a policy and I’ll give you tickets to the Orioles”, that’s a problem! Those same tickets when not tied to a specific transaction may be just fine.
If you can’t differentiate between a trip to Spain and a lunch or dinner or understand why the former might be a bit of a problem, there is something seriously wrong with your moral compass. At least you, Libby, seem to agree that cash payoffs tied to policy transactions are a no-no. I’m glad to hear no agency you’ve worked with would have allowed them. Unfortunately, not all agencies are that ethical.
What if I told you I was an independent agent for 28 years. I never accepted anything from my carriers except the occasional lunch or golf outing invitation. I never allowed anyone in my office to accept cash payments from any carrier. Does that make any difference? Does my being an agent or not change the ethical construct?
Maybe you’re objecting to my comment because it hits a little too close to home.
It hits nowhere near home for me, Don. I said I have no incentive to steer business and wouldn’t even if I did. If my agency principal goes on a trip to Spain, I really don’t care. It doesn’t affect my marketing decisions in the least.
As far as meals and games are concerned, I usually consider them part of the job. I’d rather be home with my family than entertaining some underwriter at night.
Libby, you are missing the point. I am not disparaging agents in general. I am simply pointing out that ethical behavior is an important part of the profession. Do you agree?
If agents want to be respected in the marketplace, it is imperative they act in such a way as to avoid conflicts of interest.
You already stated the $50 incentive is wrong. Are you reversing that position or are you agreeing with me?
If you’re agreeing with me, which is what you said in your comment, “The $50 CSR incentive is just wrong and no agency I’ve ever worked in has allowed them to be paid.” then are you “disparaging” all agents???
No, you’re agreeing that a particular behavior between some carriers and some agents is wrong and should be stopped.
Your principal taking a trip is not a conflict for YOU it is a conflict for HIM/HER. Suppose your principal went to Spain and subsequently told you that you needed to direct more policies over to that carrier? How would you feel about that? Would you think it’s right or wrong?
Again, my comments are not an indictment of every agency. They are an indictment of certain unethical behaviors or behaviors that create an appearance of impropriety that I believe should be avoided by every ethical agency.
The insurance industry in general has a tough time upholding a favorable image in the marketplace. We don’t need practices like these out there. We need to do better.
Don – you were disparaging agents and it’s insulting. I’ve been in this business for 36 years and have met many people and worked in number of agencies. NONE of them participated in these practices, so I fail to see that there is a widespread problem. Are there unethical people in the insurance industry? Yes. Are they the majority? Absolutely not!
Don, you sound a lot like a NY know it all. Our agency does not place business or renew business just in the hopes of winning a trip nor do we accept cash bonuses to place business with any given carrier. Our customers are first and foremost with us and we pledge to do the best we can for them. Sometimes, we have to go elsewhere if the carrier goes up on their rates. It is a good thing we represent several. I have gone on trips with carriers on several occasions. Yes, they are nice, but there are business meetings with the carrier on important topics which are mandatory to attend. I make no apologies for doing this and I also make no apologies to accepting nice contingency checks from carriers since they are based on growth and loss ratio of the agency. As far as I am concerned, you can stick your opinion where the sun doesn’t shine.
When logic fails just tell ’em to stick it. Very professional.
It surprises me that you were an independent agent and speak so disparagingly of your compatriots. Where did you get this warped view of other agents?
I think to satisfy all parties the independent P&C agency side may need to go the way of stock brokerage/financial advisors. Particularly on the personal lines end many consumers WANT advice but few are willing to pay for it or the standalone risk managers would all be rich. If a regular home/auto consumer had to pay a per hour fee for advice outside of premium/commission they’d have a better argument to make concerning how the agent is paid.
15% on a measly $750 homeowners policy is only $112.50. How much advice do you suggest we give them for that paltry sum? More large, sophisticated commercial accounts are likely to request a fee, as the commission on millions of dollars in premium can quite a hefty amount. You have to sell your service, not an insurance policy. They can buy that anywhere.
Independent agents store fronts will be a thing of the past within the next five years. The death of the independent started five years ago and every year they lose more and more market share.
Dan, I understand your point, but I think there is a valuable place for the Independent Agent in the marketplace. Most agents add a great deal of value to the insurance transaction including advice and personal service.
Interestingly, the online carriers have been opening local offices in recent years (Geico & Progressive for example) so even they seem to recognize the value of a local, human, presence.
Online carriers spend so much on their silly ads that their pricing really isn’t any better than what can be obtained from Independent Agency carriers. So, basically for the same price you get professional advice and service from an Agent. Good luck getting that from a computer. Also, agents not only deal with the big national carriers, many also have access to local and regional insurers which may provide more locally relevant products and more personal service.
I’ll grant you, agents have an uphill battle when it comes to auto insurance, which is prolific online. However, try to buy a commercial policy from the lizard. Good luck. And remember, if you buy the wrong coverage it’s too darn bad. You have no recourse. You’re on the hook. That’s when you’ll wish you had consulted a professional Agent.
Dan, you seem to be the purveyor of doom. The predictions of the death of the Independent Agency system have been around for the last 30 years at least. The IA system is flexible and adjustments are made all the time. The small mom and pops are fading away except in small towns. Larger agents like myself bring them in and combine resources with more markets, better IT systems and we are doing just fine, thank you.
“Larger agens like myself…” You’re hilarious Agent. Back in the day, my book of business was bigger than your entire agency! About 2-1/2 times if I recall correctly.
Wrong again Libby. You are the hilarious one. Rosenblatt, she just insulted me again. Deduct IJ credits. She should be about bankrupt by now.
A couple of observations. One is that these agents who are worried are locking the barn door after the horse is gone. Online shopping for car insurance has actually DROPPED the past 2 years as people find out they are not getting anything different by shopping online every 6 months.
Second, the type of people who DO shop every 6 months are not the right market for Independent Agents. We ‘train’ our customers that if they see a better deal, to let US know and we will see what we can do, because they don’t want to lose our service. and we have great success with that.
As far as Erik Sandquist’s quote about us being in danger of losing our dominance, we have not ‘dominated’ the personal lines market in about 30 years. We need to select the best clients we can, service the daylights out of them, and find ways to reach the good ones through whatever marketing makes us most comfortable.
Selecting in such a way that we control loss ratio can MORE than make up for possible slightly lower costs of the direct distribution channel. And i say possible because i’m not convinced that their expenses are really that much lower than our carriers. they may not have to pay agents commission, but billions of advertising dollars make up for a good part of that.
Oh and by the way, if the agents want something to actually worry about, be concerned that autonomous vehicles, which are in the pipeline for 4-5 years from now, and semi-autonomous vehicles (those capable of things like automatic braking and keeping you in lane) which are already here, have been shown to reduce accidents up to 97%.
That, plus the fact that if your vehicle is driving itself so the driver can’t really be considered negligent, are likely to make car insurance go completely away as far as the agent OR the online direct carriers are concerned.
Watch warren buffet, who is mostly these days taking GEICO cash flow and investing in railroads.
I bet ole Don has an attorney on speed dial or is an attorney. The problem with insurance today is lawyers have convinced people insurance agents only care about themselves when that is the furthest thing from the truth. The reason I am against online direct competition from carriers is a simple one- it encourages consumers to shop by price only and then when or if they have a problem they will just sue everyone. We offer our clients at a minimum of 3 or 4 different choices with each quote and let them decide the importance of claims handling, customer service or price. And I would say we are seeing about 70-80% of them always choose price over coverage, service and claims. It’s sad, but in today’s society of I want the government to take care of me like ole Don this is what you get. How about lawyers and accoutants disclosing how they get paid? You for or against that?
i agree choosing by price is not a good trend, but unfortunately the middle class feels (and probably rightfully so) that they have to trim expenses whenever and wherever they can because of the constantly increasing ‘great divide’ between the wealthy and the poor. Most people would not like to shop at Walmart if they really had the choice, but walmart has basically succeeded in lowering their prices by shafting their employees and in general being a bad corporate citizen. it’s a vicious circle and the whole economy is in trouble if we don’t break it. it doesn’t matter how many cool new things in invent and manufacturer if the broad masses of people can’t afford to buy it.
wish there was an edit feature on these posts as i keep spotting small errors right after i post
Walmart lowering their prices by shafting employees? Do you realize that Walmart is the largest employer in this country and probably the world? Your class warfare rhetoric is not making it on this forum. Bad corporate citizen????? Wow, what planet are you from?
Agent,
You said, “The small mom and pops are fading away except in small towns. Larger agents like myself bring them in and combine resources with more markets, better IT systems and we are doing just fine, thank you.” Sounds like you are the Walmart of the insurance agency business. Bigger = better.
So you like to continue to insult me Ron? You aren’t even an agency principal, just a desk jockey at a brokerage. Your incite to the real business world is shockingly inadequate.
Agent,
Where was the insult? Is comparing you to the largest, most successful retailer in the world an insult to you? I thought you would be flattered.
In addition, how did you come up with, “You aren’t even an agency principal, just a desk jockey at a brokerage. Your incite to the real business world is shockingly inadequate.” from my post? Please stay on topic, if you are capable.
First of all, it was the author of the article who mentioned that insurance agents’ goals in joining cluster groups are, “principally to enhance access to carriers and to increase their commission.” That is what sparked my original comment. I think agencies need to do it better and cleaner now more than ever given the competition in the marketplace, which is the subject of this article.
I did not ask anyone to disclose how much they are paid and nobody mentioned suing anybody. I am NOT against contingent commissions or bonus programs that reward sales or profitability of an agency, in the aggregate. However, I do not believe in direct cash payoffs to CSRs or Producers for quotes or polices. I also question the practice of individuals accepting high value items such as trips, which could easily be perceived by the public as unduly influencing the individual. At the very least there is an appearance of impropriety in those situations and it should be avoided by the ethical agency.
This type of ethics policy is in place in much of corporate America today. The only reason I can see to argue against it is that you like getting these benefits and the only reason not to disclose them to your clients is that you know it will make your clients worry about your impartiality. Why be in that position in the first place? Why not refuse these gifts? If they mean that much to you then maybe they are affecting your judgment.
I’m not sure where a simple ethics comment became a discussion about lawyers and big government, but, for the record, I am not an attorney nor do I play one on TV. I think tort reform is way overdue and the legal system in this country is badly broken. We should implement a loser-pays system (the English Rule) like other nations. But, that’s another topic for another day…
Cotyre: I agree with you regarding the direct writers. Most of their so-called savings seem to evaporate after 6 months and I have heard the claim service is not up to par. They typically seem to sell minimal limits that potentially leave their clients exposed to excess verdicts. Carriers have also used their website “default” coverage settings to hoodwink clients and have been fined for it. However, like it or not, they are here to stay and they will capture more and more of the market as the younger generations take over.
I think that the way for Independent Agents to compete is to act as true professionals in every aspect of the business, which should include having in place a strong ethics policy. Only agents that provide valuable advice, world class service, and who are truly working in the best interests of their clients, not just to enhance their bonus or qualify for gifts, will be successful in the long term.
I also 100% agree that shopping by price alone is foolhardy. You are exactly on point that the client should look at a combination of coverage, service, claims handling, and price with price being the lowest on the scorecard. It may not be easy, but it’s the agent’s job to sell that philosophy to the client.
To sum this up, if someone is taking a payment that they would be embarrassed or afraid to tell their client about, they shouldn’t take it. I would not be embarrassed to disclose I receive a commission on the sale of the policy or that I potentially receive a bonus from my carriers if my book is profitable with good retention, etc. I would be embarrassed to say I’m getting fifty bucks cash from carrier X if I write your policy with them. I would also be embarrassed to even try to excuse my all-expense-paid trip to Vegas as a “business meeting” when my carrier’s office is in Ohio and I’m in Maryland. Nobody in their right mind would buy that excuse.
Perhaps I’m misguided, but I believe strongly in avoiding conflicts of interest and upholding the highest possible ethical standards. I seem to have really touched a nerve on this page, which is disturbing since I would hope most insurance professionals would agree that ethics are a critical element of our business and that conflicts of interest – even apparent ones – should be avoided or at the very least cured by full disclosure to the client.
You may not agree with my specific examples, but I would surely hope you would at least agree in principal. In any case, base name-calling is unwarranted and unprofessional.
Interestingly, a quick Google search revealed a multitude of articles that seem to agree with my points. Here are a couple of examples:
http://www.cpcusociety.org/sites/dev.aicpcu.org/files/imported/EthicsConsiderationsforP$26CProfessionals.pdf
http://www.insurancejournal.com/magazines/features/2006/09/25/73123.htm
http://www.naifa.org/about-naifa/code-of-ethics
Cheers.
An agent placing business based on compensation is an individual ethics issue, not an industry or marketing channel issue, so why it was brought up regarding online insurance sales I’m not sure. There are people at online and direct sales insurers that talk to and advise prospects and policyholders, and they get paid, and I’ll bet there’s some sort of bonus structure/incentive pay available to them.
Online sales are a threat, and will take a certain share of the market, but if insurance company service centers are any indication, insurers are incapable of replacing the service a local agent provides. I use the service centers (both personal and commercial) of several companies. While they’re generally okay for routine things like issuing a cert or a change of car, they’ve failed completely with more complicated situations, not asking questions that for me are routine, resulting in big gaps in coverage. Part of their problem is lack of experience, which can be overcome, but another part is lack of familiarity with the policyholder, and I don’t know if that can be mastered in a call center/online environment.
Consumers might like the perceived cost savings of buying online, but if that leads to an uncovered claim they’ll be running back to the services of a professional. Now, whether that professional will be a traditional insurance agent or some sort of online, or local, paid insurance advisor, that I don’t know.
IL Agent, I have had a few companies making a pitch about turning over business to their call centers for servicing. They say it will free us up to write new business. I have resisted that because I don’t want to lose business if the call center screws something up. We don’t have a problem servicing our clients. The customer knows we have their back and will do the best we can for them. How do you think a call center geek would respond to a customer who is receiving one of those 25% rate increases and is jumping up and down about it? Would they contact the agent in time to save the account or would they just let it go? Then, the agent finds out the customer moved their business due to dissatisfaction. Sorry, I am not a fan of a company taking over the servicing of accounts. Now, Ron can call me an idiot again.
I’m not sure I’d use the call centers if I had a bigger agency, but I’m a one man office and they give my clients a bigger service window. You do have to keep an eye on them, client service can’t be abandoned to the call center. To be fair, if a client calls about a rate increase or tells the call center rep they’re shopping, or if the rep can’t seem to satisfy the caller for whatever reason, the caller usually get transferred to me.
IL, how much does the call center company charge you in reduced commission for servicing your business? For the one I am thinking of, I believe they take about 3% of the commission.
Depends on the company, but it’s typically 2.5% or 3% of the premium, not the commission. In other words, the commission is reduced by 3 percentage points. It’s less than a CSR would cost, even part-time. Is it worth it? I think so, not so much for my workload but for the extended hours they’re open. And for billing questions. Especially for billing questions.
Well IL, each agent must do whatever they think best for their business. We have about 2,000 Personal Lines customers spread out between 5 Standard Markets. We just haven’t had that much trouble servicing our clients. It certainly helps to have a great operating system that can pull info on a customer or go into a company site to get billing info. We have customers coming through the front door saying they want to pay their premium and many do not have their billing statement. We pull it in less than 30 seconds, see what it is, accept the payment and sweep the payment to the company which posts immediately. Works like a charm every time, especially if the customer is a bit late on the payment. USPS is not very reliable at getting a payment there in time so the sweep is great.
Accepting payments is easy. It’s the question around renewal time with multiple changes pending and the premium on some sort of plan that the insured can’t seem to stick to, so they get into late/cancel status and then pay more than the min due thinking that’ll solve everything, but they don’t like the late pay being charged that the company might remove for the right reason like there’s a full moon or it’s the billing reps b-day, or they won’t because this is the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th time the policy has been in cancel status this term, so not only is the late pay sticking but the company wants the balance by end of day along with a signed no loss statement. I prefer this to be a policyholder/company interaction.
I was mistaken as to the cost. It depends on the company, but is less than 2% of premium. One personal lines company is at 1.5% and another is charging 1.3%. The CL companies charge a similar %.
In my experience, those who use a similar terminology to “old white male” have a political agenda, not a business one. I’m a carrier rep and we do offer one incentive to write more business annually, but no cash bonuses “tied to individual transactions/customers”. These incentives are rather popular and are not unethical, because management meetings allow company execs to hear from their top agents on pertinent issues and topics, which in turn allows us to improve our products and services. It’s called a “win/win”.
Bill, Don may be Ron is disguise. As a former “actuary”, he said companies don’t listen to agents in meetings on relevant topics to improve their products and services. They just put their algorithms together and do their thing. A company that doesn’t listen to their agents about the market is one who will ultimately fail.
Agent, good point. I have agents tell me all the time about meeting our company president and what they got from the conversation, no matter the setting. That said, I appreciate what he said in his 5:28 pm post. There are a lot of companies that have the APPEARANCE of ethics, like Allstate, but when their claims adjuster scrws your customer, you realize it’s just talk.
Agent,
You really are just an idiot, aren’t you? Don’s point has zero to do with anyhting I have ever mentioned. And I have never been an “actuary”. In addition, I did not say companies do not listen to their agents. What I said was that companies do not make decisions based on whet their agents say.
Couldn’t you just go tothe carrieer’s home ioffice for your management meetings? Why does it need to be somewhere nice?
It seems like the agents on here disputing what he is saying do not understand his point. He has no problem with you going on trips and receiving contingency checks or any other significant compensation about your commission. He just believes they should be disclosed to your customers who are indirectly paying for those trips and contingency checks.
If he has struck a nerve, you either need to work on your reading comprehension or rethink your ethics.
Finally, someone who didn’t fail reading comprehension 101!
I wish we could start a “we passed reading comprehension 101” group here and have our own comment section. That would resolve a TON of the semi-regular pointless back-and-forth that happens on this forum when Person A keeps trying to bring Person B back to the actual point which was made in the first place. End mini-rant.
Ron, I happen to be a successful idiot who has been in this business for many years. Tell me how an idiot succeeds. Give me some of your Algorithms and predict how long an idiot succeeds in this business. Your failure to understand how business works is now legendary. Just for your information, we go to plenty of meetings that are not trips. Agents meet in regional settings every year to go over their plans and address concerns of agents.
By the way, these trips are not handed out to all agents, just the ones who grow and meet the requirements for production with good loss ratios. I know that is a difficult concept for your pea sized brain. By the way, your spelling and typing skills need a lot of work. My ethics are just fine, thank you.
Agent,
I would venture to say you think President Obama is an idiot in addition to Senator Reid and representative Pelosi and they are all very successful.
Knowing how to run a successful agency does not, in and of itself, speak to one’s overall intrelligence. There are successful ididots in nearly all industries.
I would much prefer to have solid reading comprehnsion over typing skills. Apparently you prefer the opposite.
Nobody said the trips are not earned. Do you advise your clients that you go on trips paid for by the company based on growth and profitability goals that you meet, in part, due to where you place their policies?
Who questioned YOUR ethics. Boy are you defensive.
Ron/Don/Agent,
Guess I’ll jump back into this. Neither one of you are “idiots” based on the dictionary definition. Everyone has their own talents. We’re getting bogged down in the weeds on the “ do you tell your clients” and the ethics issues. I would bet that most of us know that it’s not good business or ethical to promote the wrong product to a customer just in order to make more money or earn a trip. On the other hand, if I have a market that says: If you can figure out a way to reach more customers that fit our product and you can achieve certain volume goals, you earn “X”. Then there is no reason to inform a client of “X” if the policy is the best option for the client and the price cannot be modified for the client (ie personal lines ).
Dear God, Agent – let the whole ‘algorithms’ response to ‘all things Ron’ go!
Il, we also try to put as many of EFT as possible for bank draft. It works pretty well, but there can be some issues when the rates go up and they start having a higher draft taken out. Some of the customers take more stroking than others. I don’t know how a call center explains these things to people, but I would imagine they have a tough time explaining higher premiums to a customer.
Actually Ron, you hit the nail on the head about the incompetence of this President, Pelosi & Reid. Why do you think the nation rejected their agenda in the mid terms? It wasn’t because they are successful in recovering America. They are all serial liars of the first magnitude.
Really Ron? Please provide me an example of successful idiots in nearly all industries. Your reading comprehension and typing skills are abysmal. Perhaps you should sign up for two more years of free education at community colleges that Obama is proposing. Take some courses on typing and reading. Stan should be excited now. He can get in on the ground floor and not have to worry about getting a job with his three degrees. By the way, it will only cost $60 Billion, but who is counting?
Ron & Agent – you are both docked one IJ credit for insulting each other.
-The sole and founding member of the IJ comment police
Are you the appointed IJ police Rosenblatt? Are either you or Ron agents or just broker/agent employees who think they are smarter than Independent Agents? Have either of you ever started a business, made payroll, paid taxes on it, hired or fired employees, got appointed with a company to sell their insurance products, paid all bills for doing business and sold all forms of Personal, Business & Life Insurance. I even sold Individual & Group Health until Obama came along and screwed up the whole health insurance business. What are your accomplishments outside of posting on IJ and bragging about your links?
Agent,
I will concede that there are some things in which you are more experienced and intelligent than me.
Have you ever worked as a product manager, actuary or company executive?
My accomplishments are tied to making money for agents like you through improved product offerings, establishing underwriting guidelines and pricing that increased PIF and written premium, lowered loss ratios and increased profits for companies who then pay your commissions and contingency bonuses so you can make payroll and pay taxes, and send you on nice trips.
YOU’RE WELCOME!!
Now I broker business which makes lots of money for agents who do not have access to certain markets and several companies. You make a couple of employees happy. I make thousands of people happy.
I WIN!!
“Are you the appointed IJ police Rosenblatt?”
Yes, yes I am!
Bob demanded I point out EVERYONE’S insults on here, or else I’m not being fair. You previously told me I don’t call out the left-leaning people on this site by name when they insult you, and I need to play fair.
So yes – I am the official IJ comment police as both you and Bob have told me that’s what I need to do. This is on you two.
Maybe – JUST MAYBE – people will stop insulting each other.
That’s be great, then I wouldn’t have to do this anymore!
*That’d
Rosenblatt, It wasn’t me asking you to be the IJ Police Monitor. Perhaps Bob said it, but I didn’t see the post. You have some serious work to do with Libby and others who insult me with every post. I don’t let her get away with it by the way. She, booger, Ins102, Planet, have all been reported to IJ for their recent actions. When are you going to call them out for their rabid liberal rants and insults. You have also insulted my intelligence as well. Those who live in glass houses should not throw rocks.
Having said that, I apologize if I have offended anyone on this blog. What is the penalty for speaking the truth as I know it? As the monitor, are you saying that I am not allowed to give the Conservative viewpoint?
Agent – you have specifically told me in the past that I need to call out BY NAME those people who insulted you. Agreed?
The only thing I’m calling people out on are PERSONAL insults. There are way too many comments to catch each group generalization in near-real time.
“You have also insulted my intelligence as well.”
True. However, I gave you numerous opportunities to prove me wrong, and before settling on “hypocritical troll”, I backed up the validity of my insults using your own **EXACT** words to show you why I believed that to be true.
AS LONG AS YOU CAN SUPPORT YOUR STATEMENTS WITH FACTUAL EVIDENCE IF REQUESTED, THERE IS NO PENALTY FOR THE TRUTH. Saying “I read this” or “I think you once said” doesn’t count as evidence. Also, exaggerating someone’s statement to make a point is punishable by penalty too (all penalties are a reduction of one I.J. comment credit, which is totally made up and I’m not keeping score)
“As the monitor, are you saying that I am not allowed to give the Conservative viewpoint?”
Of course you can, I just suggest leaving out any personal attacks or insults when you’re expressing your viewpoint.
Rosenblatt, please explain to an idiot agent what “That’d” means. Is that common language where you come from and what was your point. Inquiring minds want to know.
Okay Agent – here it goes. I posted “That’s be great…”
“That’s” is a typo as it reads “That is be great…”
There’s no edit button here, so I replied to my post and amended “That’s” to “That’d” making it “That would be great…”
The * denotes an edit was made.
So the line went from “That is be great” to “That would be great” and I accomplished the edit with my “*That’d” post.
Got it?
He’s trying to mock you saying that’d is not a word. But, newsflash Agent, it’s in the dictionary!
Translations
that’d
(ˈðӕtəd) that’ll (ˈðӕtl) , that’s (ðӕts)
short for that had / that would, that will, that is.
Thank you for explaining your one word post Rosenblatt. I am just a stupid agent and I am used to 8-10 paragraphs from you on about every subject under discussion. I think that is the first time I have ever seen “That’d” as a post. How hard would “That would” be to post followed by a completed sentence? This is not an insult by the way.
The hell it’s not.
Agent – any person that obtains an insurance license and a carrier appointment is an Agent. You are an agency principal who employs agents and other employees. Got it?
Libby, yes I am the agency principal and the one who pays the bills, makes the payroll, makes company appointments and pays commission to the “licensed agents” in my office. The licensed agents also include my CSR’s, but they do not make the decisions of the business, got it?
I’ve always had it, Agent. It’s you that seems confused by the title “Agent.” I am an Agent, just like you.
And you have payroll and all the bills that go with running an agency because you choose to. I do not choose to. It doesn’t make you better than me, so quit acting like it does.
Rosenblatt,
I humbly accept my penalty and would like to extend my apologies to Agent and anyone in the IJ community who was offended.
Ron – Let me check with Bob & Agent to see if it’s acceptable to rescind an insult and get your IJ comment credit back. You’re the first person to try and I didn’t write the rules.
FWIW – seriously – I do not care one bit if people insult each other on this site. It’s a freaking internet comment section after all! This stemmed from other discussions in different articles (not worth rehashing here).
Rosenblatt,
I am not requesting my credit back. Unlike some of the Conservatives on this blog I will accept my penalty, repent and try to learn from my mistakes.
Thank you for your efforts and optimism.
It takes a big man to accept a penalty and try to improve themselves by looking at the situation as a learning experience. Many people on this site, myself included, can learn a lot from the way you handled this (totally absurd “policing” of comments :).
…and yes, I sadly realize the irony of me previously stating we should have a “I passed reading comp 101” group here, and then failing to use those skills and thinking you wanted me to give you the IJ credit back. Derp-a-derp on myself.
Rosenblatt, I am still awaiting you calling out Libby and seeking her apology and showing contrition for her way out of control comments and insults. Do you think she will abide with your rules or not?
By the way, I will not pull up your links anymore than Libby’s. I don’t want any cookies or viruses to clean out. The one exception will be her furnishing Obama’s education records and that will not happen because they are probably in a vault somewhere and will never see the light of day.
Agent – I am not retroactively reviewing articles or comments looking for offenders.
“Do you think she will abide with your rules or not?”
She hasn’t insulted anyone in this thread, correct? If Libby has insulted you in this article, please show me where I’m wrong.
However, I have already called out Libby for personal attacks on others at least once today in a different article.
The IJ police did not start until today and it doesn’t have a time machine. The past is the past – the police are looking for offenders in the present and future.
Please note the IJ Police credo: We WILL call out PERSONAL ATTACKS & those who exaggerate someone’s statement to twist their words around and give them false meaning. If someone attacks a group of people, the IJ police are not responsible.
We just opened today, after all. Others should feel free to call out those attacking a group of people for making ‘short-sighted generalizations’ and provide evidence to support their arguments.
PS – I find your refusal to only open a specific link very short-sighted and not conducive to having open and honest discussions. REGARDLESS OF MY BELIEF – IT’S YOUR RIGHT TO DO THAT.
The IJ police would like to ask Agent, in good faith, that when you include links as reference, you do not expect or demand people open them since you are not showing the same courtesy.
The IJ police will click your links, and others might too, but you should not get upset if you post a link and people (e.g. Libby) refuse to click it since that are the rules by which you’re playing.
Getting upset at someone for not opening your link when you refuse to open links yourself would be hypocritical, yes?
Now…if Libby asked you for a link, you included it, and THEN she said she wasn’t going to click it, that WILL draw the ire of the IJ comment police due to the hypocrisy.
Rosenblatt – Agent doesn’t know how to cut and paste a link. That’s why he says “I read an article” or “I heard blah, blah, blah.” I tried to teach him how to post a link, but he’s too lazy to do it.
Libby: “Agent doesn’t know how to cut and paste a link…he’s too lazy to do it.”
You are penalized one IJ credit for calling Agent lazy and one IJ credit for exaggerating that he doesn’t know how to post a link (I’ve seen him do it before).
-The sole & founding member of the IJ comment police
OK. Can you give my total number of current IJ credits? I want to be sure I have enough to keep insulting Agent.
Rosenblatt, you don’t have to go back very far to find the insults. Try about the last three articles where there has been heavy comment. The reason why I don’t post links is that several commenters said many of the links have cookies or viruses attached. I am not going to post them or click on any others. I will direct where I have seen the information and people that want to Google them can view them or go onto a website to see the article. The problem I have with Liberals is that they never believe anything from the Conservative viewpoint since they are married to the Liberal agenda.
But I will add, if he can tell you the title and source of a particular article, but will not post the link when he knows how to, that would also make him lazy. I am going to appeal your decision to call that an insult and deduct an IJ point. Can you explain the appeals process to me? I couldn’t find it in the IJ rulebook.
Agent – if you viewed the article yourself, then a cookie was already saved in your computer. You don’t get cookies by posting a link. You get them from visiting a website. Have you considered taking an internet class?
I am abiding by the rules. The rules are if I personally insult you, I am called out by name and one IJ credit is deducted from my account. I’m cool with that.
Agent – care to answer my question? In the future — “Getting upset at someone for not opening your link when you refuse to open links yourself would be hypocritical, yes?” Please advise if you agree or not.
Agent – Like I said before in all capital letters, REGARDLESS OF MY BELIEF – IT’S YOUR RIGHT TO DO THAT with not opening or providing links. I understand your points, but I don’t agree at all. And that’s okay. We live in America. You’re entitled to your opinion, and I’m entitled to tell you I think your logic is faulty and I completely disagree.
Agent – “Rosenblatt, you don’t have to go back very far to find the insults.” I’m not going back AT ALL. I’m leaving the past in the past and am dealing with personal insults starting with yesterday’s columns.
Libby – Everyone’s IJ credits are kept in a secret vault under lock-and-key. I’m sorry, but I can’t tell you how many credits you have left only because I just don’t have that information to share!
Libby – there is no formal appeals process. Just voicing your disagreement and laying out your argument logically and hopefully with evidence is all that’s needed.
Libby – Although it’s borderline, I will give you back one IJ credit for calling Agent lazy. As you so eloquently stated “if he can tell you the title and source of a particular article, but will not post the link when he knows how to, that would also make him lazy.” That is a valid point since it will take him longer to type out ‘This is from Fox News, Jan 14, 2014 and “This is the title of the article”‘ than it would be to highlight the URL, hit copy, then hit paste. Upon appeal, the original penalty has been rescinded.
Agent “The problem I have with Liberals is that they never believe anything from the Conservative viewpoint since they are married to the Liberal agenda.”
FYI, Agent, I intentionally didn’t write anything about that line since I stand by my prior comment that the IJ police are not getting involved when someone generalizes about a group of people.
Rosenblatt – thank you for your careful consideration of my appeal. I feel I have been vindicated.
As far as the IJ police responding to generalizations, I agree wholeheartedly. However, that would not prevent an individual from commenting on said generalization if they felt compelled to do so. That came from a recent update to the IJ manual.
I agree, Libby – those who make sweeping generalizations about groups of people can certainly be called out by others about them.
Like anything, though, it’s HOW the response is done that matters.
“You’re an idiot if you really think _____, you moron” = punishable by the IJ police
“I can’t believe you really think _____ is true. That’s so short-sighted”, or something like that = not punishable by the IJ police
LOL! I understand Rosenblatt. Since Agent and bob tend to make my blood boil, I respond more likely with scenario #1 to them. But I try to take the #2 approach with most others.
Just curious Rosenblatt, but did you get this idea of IJ monitor/fines from the movie “Demolition Man” starring Sylvester Stallone? He got fined by the future society he was in for his insults and language. The machine nearly ran out of fines on him and Wesley Snipes, his foe. “Be well Rosenblatt”.
Agent – the idea came from you and Bob. You demanded that he call out other posters for insulting.
Agent – I’m impressed you figured out how to post a reply in-thread when the post you’re responding to didn’t have a “reply” button on it. You’re learning! :D
Agent says: Just curious Rosenblatt, but did you get this idea of IJ monitor/fines from the movie “Demolition Man”….
Libby says: Agent – the idea came from you and Bob. You demanded that he call out other posters for insulting.
Here’s an instance where the BOTH of you are correct! Yes, Agent, the phrasing I’m using when I ‘fine’ people was totally stolen from Demolition Man (do not ask me how to use the 3 seashells though!), but the idea of being the IJ comment police and calling out – by name – those who insult others came from you and Bob.
This has turned into an interesting conversation regarding income transparancy, but there are several other things which should be mentioned.
1. There is a whole generation of consumers who, by their actions trust shopping for insurance by computer or smartphone more than trusting either an IA or an EA. In part, agents still have a negative connotation right in there with car salesmen.
2. This is already being born out by the decrease in the numbers of IAs as well as the ever increasing average age of the “typical” agent.
3. As mentioned in IJ as well as other sources, Google among others is getting into the insurance business. What makes this powerful is that they already collect and store a huge amount of buying data every keystroke on each of us. THat can be a game changer if they either want to act as a carrier or as an agent or both.
4. There are as many ads-and not merely “flo” where the consumer is being led to the carrier who will provide them with a great customer experience(and if you use the term service, then you are stuck in the 90’s). Regardless if its an IA or EA carrier, you NEVER hear about how the agent can help solve your insurance problem. I can’t tell you the last time I saw a Big I ad-its been years. And I go back to when Raymond Burr was the voice of the Big I-and because of that extended ad campaign agents immediately had a brand identification that they don’t have today.
I’m an old guy-on the company side and I hope to be retired before the looming changes on the carrier side make me as useful as an IBM Selectric III, but I can see that there are beaucoup changes coming on both sides of the ball.
For the agents out there, you might want to think about how you can be vital-not to just the clients you’ve had for 20 years, but how you can make a difference to the prospective buyers who right now don’t see the IA or EA as being someone who can not only provide them with help or advice on what policy to buy, but also how you and only you can help them with a claim and not some adjuster sitting in an office 1000 miles away.
Compensation-and transparency is something to consider but is not the only thing to take a new look at because doing business the same way you’ve done it over the last 20 years will not be a successful business model to follow.
Rosenblatt, I believe you missed two more Libby insults, but I will let it go since you are a busy monitor. You may have to hire someone to stay up with the veiled insults and have a committee to decide to penalize a commenter.
By the way, I will not give up my Conservative viewpoint under any circumstances to get in the good graces of liberals on this site. They are what they are and I am what I am.
“Rosenblatt, I believe you missed two more Libby insults”
That’s entirely possible. Please tell me EXACTLY where those insults are located – the name of the article and the date & time of her post – and I’ll check it out.
I probably did, Rosenblatt. To save yourself some time, just deduct 2 more credits.
Your honesty is much appreciated. 2 IJ credits have been taken off Libby’s account for likely insulting someone twice.
Yes, Rosenblatt, those pesky sea shells were hard to use for Stallone, so he used his fine tickets to do the job.
Illuminate….
De-luminate….
“Live long and prosper Rosenblatt” – Mr. Spock
It is Friday and I am going home and watching Professional Golf from Hawaii on GC.