Why would anyone listen to Obama at this point regarding healthcare? It was a well thought out plan. They didn’t think about adverse selection or that young people wouldn’t join. He didn’t think about the website that crashed. Now he wants people/businesses to listen to him on how to fix the future? The businesses are doing what they need to do to survive.
What happens to a busineses CEO who doesn’t do what’s best for the company: the CEO gets dragged out in front of democrat Lizzy Warren and gets reprimanded big time.
Everything is someone else’s fault.
The original plan was flawed intentionally from the beginning to force a single payer plan which is coming from the Govt.
He never wanted private enterprise involved, but had to go through this step. All large financial changes occurred AFTER his re-election because he knew it would fail. He wants Govt to provide healthcare.
Problem is, this will likely involve another payroll tax which will kill the employee.
As well, how can $11.1 million customers needing health insurance FORCE change upon the other 310 million???
Why not provide a govt plan for those who NEED healthcare and can’t obtain? We could have skipped this entire joke.
As having formerly worked at a state insurance department, I can tell you that there is and was in every state, a government plan for those that needed health insurance, but they were unaffordable. Obamacare, was and is, the first and only attempt to make it more affordable, which despite what people think, has actually worked as intended. But, until the hospital and doctor side are addressed, it can’t be fully fixed.
So you are familiar with “Adverse selection” and the “law of large numbers”… These issues were more than just a “Criticism” in 2009
It was MATH. This law is Emotionally created for an industry that relies on actuarial math. Now the Free money to the Insurance companies is gone and so are they. Sadly we have less choice and Competition in just a few short years following the Free money to pay for the losses.
That free money was paid for with a 30 year loan program that citizens of this USA now owe to Bond holders.
When they say “Its for the Children” often times its too the children…
Need I remind you that this legislation was passed “without a single Republican vote!” Now he blames the Republicans for not helping? This law was sold on false narratives and was very poorly written; in fact almost guaranteed to fail! You can gut the primary operating structure from the insurance industry and expect it to preform. We have gone from a competitive free market to variably no market. Here in MN we are looking at 50-65% rate increases and the commerce department had to approve them or the remaining 3 markets would have pulled out as well, they are all bleeding red ink.
There have been several pieces of legislation from the other side over the past 3-4 years, but the Democrats in the senate wouldn’t even hear the bill…However there is plenty of blame to go around the entire system. If you want lower cost and better outcome, you need to empower the consumer! They will drive performance and price.
My position all along has been to help the pre x folks out and leave the rest alone. My opposition to this has always been that OBama Care did not address the underlying issues – factors that forced the higher expenses on the Doc & Hospital side.
Cant fix everything over night and that is what was attempted.
A program that is unaffordable is useless. Now people are facing huge deductibles, co-pays, and premium increases. Paying doctors and hospitals less for services without tort reform will only result in fewer doctors and hospitals. Obamacare is a miserable failure and should be repealed.
Obama says, “he healthcare plan has real problems.” It had real problems before it was passed. Now the liar wants to blame it on politicians. Remember, “If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor, if you like your health plan you can keep your health plan?”
If Congress had done their jobs this past year, a lot of things would have gotten done. Don’t ignore the fact they sat on their haunches most of the year and disappointed a lot of Americans. Where there is an incumbent running – vote against them and maybe we can get the country working again….and I’m sorry but Donald Trump scares the heck out of a lot of people too.
I guess it is time for the GOP to step up to the plate and share their secret health care plan with the America public ahead of next month’s election. What??? You don’t have one? :-(
All in all, what Obamacare did was to guarantee that all pre-existing conditions would now be covered. That is a good thing.
Naturally, this will make the red boys on this board very, very angry.
I doubt it Celtica. My best guess is they are waiting for the rate hikes to hit the mail boxes.
“Minnesota’s commerce commissioner, Mike Rothman, said on Friday that he would allow insurers selling individual plans in the state to raise their prices by at least 50 percent next year after the near “collapse” of its market for individual coverage.”
Who in Min is not going to vote for Repeal and replace?
It speaks for itself.
BTW, States had Pre X Pools set up. So, no. oBama Care did not help them out as it was available.
FFA, the Progressive Socialists passed this piece of trash and forced it down the throat of Americans. They don’t own up to their huge mistakes and instead now call for the Republicans to fix it or call for single payer which is what they wanted to start with. Every Democrat that thought this was a good thing should be booted out of office to join the ones already booted out in the mid terms or the General. Even today, Hilliary’s husband said Obamacare was bad and ill conceived.
The distortions in your post as to regarding who has been called to fix it or what Hillary’s husband stated eliminates any credibility, you might have in your point.
Also, I’d like to suggest that you be a little more mature and stop the name-calling because it makes you actually sound like a deplorable human being, which I don’t believe you probably are.
David, Bravo, well said. I can guess the various screen names that Deplorables is hiding behind.
October 5, 2016 at 3:48 pm
Jax Agent says:
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Methinks that like most democrats, David doesn’t like the truth, especially when the truth is not very flattering and is directed at the people he voted for and support today.
Also, I’d like to suggest that you be a little more mature and stop the bedwetting, it makes you sound like a patsy, which you might very well be.
October 11, 2016 at 12:45 pm
Bob says:
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“The distortions in your post as to regarding who has been called to fix it or what Hillary’s husband stated eliminates any credibility, you might have in your point. ”
Context needed, or it is in fact you who are eliminating any point you are making. He doesn’t have to talk how you want. He’s passionately talking about a bad plan which is bad. It doesn’t become a good plan because he mentions that even Hillary didn’t like it. Remember how the democrats said “even republicans wanted a mandate!”. It’s the same deal. Were democrats ruining their credibility by saying that? For them it works, and for republicans it becomes a condemn-able action. This is a means to basically destroy a person’s words based on their phrasing. It is not appropriate.
“Also, I’d like to suggest that you be a little more mature and stop the name-calling because it makes you actually sound like a deplorable human being, which I don’t believe you probably are.”
Same thing as above, destroying someone based on the words they use. What the poster above said was mild at best. He called democrats socialists and called the plan a piece of trash. Ooooo!! Now he better watch it and start believing what you want, or he might be a deplorable human being!
These tactics are also out of line. Insults mixed into comments are fine. Insults mixed into comments designed to make someone’s credibility, are not. You still have to address someone’s argument, not their character as the means to your argument. A typical insult is not meant to make an argument, it’s meant to inform someone they are a jerk, or to make a consequence for acting like an idiot. Ridicule as much as you as a youngin’ may hate it, causes just as much growth when needed as positive commentary. The only difference is if you always hear the positive, you never question yourself.
October 4, 2016 at 3:38 pm
FFA says:
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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We will see in November who the American People want to fix it or to Repeal and Replace it. Another 4 years of the status quo is not acceptable.
FFA, I saw a bit of Megyn Kelley last night and she was interviewing the now infamous Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of Dead Fish, the wonderful mayor of Chicago, the main architect of Obamacare and true to his Progressive Socialist roots, he was blaming Republicans for the demise of this so called law. He also said that the big rate increases were a one time thing and only in a few parts of the country. I laughed and switched the channel since I was tire of it in a few minutes.
October 6, 2016 at 7:14 pm
DePolarBearables says:
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EE is doing the typical Commie thing; i.e. repeating a lie many times, assuming the liberal following lemmings will eventually believe it, despite those lies being refuted by facts and common sense.
October 4, 2016 at 4:17 pm
Celtica says:
Hot debate. What do you think?
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FFA, according to this article dated 9.1.16 from the Twin Cities:
“…These new proposed rates would affect only people who buy individual insurance plans. About 300,000 Minnesotans are in that category, of whom 70,000 buy their plan through the state-run MNsure exchange and 230,000 directly from insurers. People who get health insurance from providers or from government programs such as Medicare, Medical Assistance or MinnesotaCare won’t be directly affected. ..”
So in answer to your question, there are approximately 5.5 million people in Minnesota – so it would appear to impact about 5% of the healthcare policyholders. While this is not good for them, it really doesn’t call for a state wide vote to repeal the whole thing.
Also, Trump’s surrogate in Minnesota is calling for a total recall — that would include pre-existing conditions.
Who would be worse off? Nearly everyone, not just the 5%
FFA, no chance Trump will go into any detail — other than “something terrific” — because he cannot stick to a position for any period of time as it all depends on his audience at the moment.
According to this Trump Tweet: he will repeal the whole thing — which means pre-existing conditions will go with it.
Celtica, Bits and pieces have been made public. For instance, allowing people that pay their own individual premiums get to deduct it. All Hillary does is talk about increasing taxes.
What do low info voters hear? Tax Break. Tax Hike.
Everyone in the Insurance Biz knows the best course of action is to Repeal and Replace. Yes, even you and Cap know that when you take off your emotions hat and put on your biz hat.
October 5, 2016 at 12:23 pm
Ron says:
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FFA,
Everyone in the insurance business also knows that the free market does not have an affordable solution for the high risk insureds. Most of those people cannot afford actuarial sound health insurance premiums. If you advocate for subsidies for the high risk, why not just include them in the pool of all insureds? We are subsidizing them either way, by paying higher premiums or higher taxes.
If we are deducting health care premiums, which reduces revenue for the government, is that not the same as having the government pay for a portion of our health care insurance? Why not just have them do the whole job? Then every citizen would be covered, we would have less government administered healthcare (Medicare, Medicaid and VA), provide complete freedom to choose from whom you receive health care without networks, and we could reduce costs.
October 5, 2016 at 1:17 pm
FFA says:
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Because Ron, the govt will not get it right.
State Pools would fall to the states responsibility – a Local Solution because not all fit in the same box. Put it on the hands of Counties and states. The local market experts – not some jack ass sitting in DC.
October 5, 2016 at 2:01 pm
Ron says:
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FFA,
The government has proven to be able to collect taxes and pay private contractors, correct? That is all I am asking for them to do with health insurance. Collect taxes and pay the premiums.
Will the state pools charge actuarial sound rates or rely on subsidies from the government (taxpayers)?
October 5, 2016 at 3:51 pm
Jax Agent says:
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Celtica: “…..because he cannot stick to a position for any period of time as it all depends on his audience at the moment.” And that would make Trump different from Hillary……how exactly? Right, Celtica ! No difference at all ! Great answer.
October 5, 2016 at 4:14 pm
Ron says:
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Jax Agent,
Donald Trump is supposed to be the honest, unpolitician. That is the difference.
October 6, 2016 at 7:18 pm
DePolarBearables says:
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@Ron; the free market DOES have an affordable solution. The details of the plans in the works are not going to be revealed now so that the media can attack them with lies and distortions, as you and your liberal friends hope to do.
Time will reveal the solution that evaded the Harvard Elitists with arrogant attitudes. They will be mocked after the solution corrects almost all of the problems that exist today. But, again, it will take time to implement.
October 7, 2016 at 7:45 am
Ron says:
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DePolarBearables,
Anyone who has a basic knowledge of the insurance mechanism and pricing KNOWS that there cannot be an affordable, free market solution to health insurance, period. The free market has had decades to accomplish this feat, to no avail.
No one has ever explained why the Republicans never out their plan in writing, in the form of a bill, with any of there hopeless attempts to repeal the PPACA.
You cannot criticize Nancy Pelosi for saying, “We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it”, then say, “we have to vote for the Republicans to see what is in their plan”. That is called hypocrisy.
And you call Democrats and Liberals lemmings.
October 7, 2016 at 1:00 pm
DePolarBearables says:
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The free market hasn’t been as free as it will be under a TrumPresidency and Republican controlled Congress.
With that, the problems CAN be solved.
Ron; you are making statements about something you know little about. And you have NO knowledge about the (proprietary?) plan that will be revealed after Trump wins.
The reasons the free market didn’t solve the affordability problem is that it didn’t reach a crisis level until Democrats said it did. Of course, that is only their opinion, intended to be used to brainwash the public into agreeing with more government control. Now that the crisis has evolved into one more damaging, as a result of the ACA, intelligent insurance pros came up with several solutions to those problems. Further, chief execs of health insurers don’t want their salaries reduced by reducing the claim costs and expenses in premiums, so THEY had no incentive to improve (not fix) the affordability of health insurance.
Highly risky health insurance risks that were undesirable were previously handled by pools, which seemed to be working as intended. The ACA acted to dismantle some or all of those pools in favor of government subsidies that are miserable failures.
Lefties pointing to US citizens’ rights of “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness” does NOT give anyone the right to medical care because “Immortality” isn’t identical to “Life”.
October 7, 2016 at 1:22 pm
Ron says:
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DePolarBearables,
Nobody, including you, knows what their plans are because they will not let anyone know. How can you, in good conscience, vote for someone without knowing what they intend to do if elected? That is the definition of being a political lemming. They say, “trust us”, and you fall for it.
If releasing of the Republican health insurance plan is contingent on Donald Trump winning, I guess we will never know.
What happens if Donald Trump does not win, but the Republicans gain more seats in Congress. Will they at least bring forth a replacement bill just to prove they actually have a plan?
You said, “The reasons the free market didn’t solve the affordability problem is that it didn’t reach a crisis level until Democrats said it did.”
So, the fact that health care expenses have been the number one cause of bankruptcies for decades is not enough of a crisis for the free market or Republicans to respond? Nice.
October 10, 2016 at 2:11 pm
bob says:
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“If releasing of the Republican health insurance plan is contingent on Donald Trump winning, I guess we will never know.”
This has to do with how the 3 branches work. If a democrat vetoes and otherwise publicly destroys a republican replacement, it is not the fault of republicans.
“What happens if Donald Trump does not win, but the Republicans gain more seats in Congress. Will they at least bring forth a replacement bill just to prove they actually have a plan? ”
Yes. They have been for some time. However, you have constantly said when they try to pass bills that have no chance of going through, it wastes time and that is bad.
Now you have flipped the other way, and want them to bring forth plans even when they have no chance of passing?
Ron, this delusional flip flopping is out of hand with you.
Do you or do you not remember saying what I’m mentioning here? I’ve already given the 2016 most recent republican healthcare alternative.
They will as always put forth plans.
October 10, 2016 at 2:55 pm
DePolarBearables says:
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@Ron; No, the number one reason for personal bankruptcy isn’t health care expenses. It may be LACK of health insurance to cover those expenses, and low NET DISPOSABLE incomes due to high taxes. Many people have NOT gone bankrupt because they did the responsible thing and bought health insurance. Also, see ‘Medicaid’.
October 11, 2016 at 7:59 am
Ron says:
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Bob,
When I said, “If releasing of the Republican health insurance plan is contingent on Donald Trump winning, I guess we will never know.”, it was in response to DePolarBearables statement, “And you have NO knowledge about the (proprietary?) plan that will be revealed after Trump wins.”
It was not in reference to the passing of the Republicans’ plan, just laying out exactly what it will include.
Yous aid, “Yes. They have been for some time. However, you have constantly said when they try to pass bills that have no chance of going through, it wastes time and that is bad.
Now you have flipped the other way, and want them to bring forth plans even when they have no chance of passing?
Ron, this delusional flip flopping is out of hand with you.”
I have not flipped at all. My position has been and continues to be, why can the Republicans not put their replacement in any one of the repeal bills that also had zero chance of passing? My issue with their repeal efforts was that it was solely, 100% political posturing, not governing. If you are going to waste our time, at least provide a solution, do not just whine.
I read the alternative bill you cited, did you? It is not a replacement, only the elimination of the mandates within the PPACA. Is that the grand Republican plan? If that is all they have, they are more useless than I had originally thought.
October 11, 2016 at 9:01 am
DePolarBearables says:
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@Ron; your Oct 7 post stating “anyone in the insurance industry knows there cannot be a solution to the affordability problem…” (paraphrased) shows your ignorance.
Other lines of insurance faced affordability problems and solved them.
The distinction in HI is the Dictatorial control the Communist Dems want to exert over 1/6th of the US Economy. They AVOIDED the potential solutions in order to control your HI and health care decisions and robbed more of your Freedom in the process. They are Communists hiding under the less-despised veil of ‘Democrats’.
If your a Womanizer like he is, he is something to be admired. All that cheating and still talked his wife into not kicking his cheating ass to the curb. He could give seminars. Charge his $250,000 per hour rate…
FFA — so could Trump for that matter — excepts his cheating ass kicks his spouses to the curb and brags how much he don’t have to pay them — and admire sharia law on top of it. Can’t make this stuff up.
October 4, 2016 at 5:39 pm
Deplorables says:
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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FFA, Hilliary caught him many times, but her political ambitions outweighed the cheating factor. In fact, she went after and ruined all the women who had contact with him. She has a lot of nerve saying Trump treats women badly. Her husband was the worst serial cheater of all former Presidents combined. Of course one look at her might justify some of the wayward eyes. Did you notice her Botox eye treatments prior to the first debate? She must have borrowed Pelosi’s Botox doctor.
October 4, 2016 at 6:45 pm
Celtica says:
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Deplorables — Hillary has spent her life in public AND political service which is not to be confused with each other. Running for senate is political, running for president is political. Serving as First Lady and the Secretary of State is not.
So — to state that she stayed with him – and he with her — for political purposes is nonsense. I don’t know why they stayed together — and neither you. They appear to have a real affection for each other.
Unlike Trump and his 3 wives, unlike Guilani and his 3 wives and unlike Gingrich and his 3 wives. They keep trading in for younger versions after cheating on spouses 1 and 2. Will their be a 4th….yes, the trend is there. Probably a 5th too.
As for Hillary going after the women who slept with her husband, damn straight, she ought to go after them. They knew he was married. If you are talking about rape, then why have no rape charges ever been filed? Produce the evidence.
BTW, the press is waiting for the court to unseal Trump’s first divorce in which his wife charged him with rape. Guess you cannot rape your own wife. Nice.
And Trump lusts after his own daughters. Sicko.
October 4, 2016 at 2:11 pm
cm sense says:
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The GOP does have plans to replace obamacare, They tried a number of times to get a vote on them when Harry reid was in charge, and he shot them down every time. He would not even let a vote be taken on them. The media always say that the republicans are the obstructionists, but the truth is that it is the democrats the hold things up all the time.
Please cite the name and number of the bill the Republicans have put forth in Congress that actually has their replacement. All they have done, as far as the bills I have seen, is try to repeal a law that had 0% chance of being repealed.
Cite & name your sources. That should put an end to anyone else posting on this message board….not. Ron, if you aren’t careful, I’ll have Bob cite, name sources and empty the library of congress in your lap in the form of …..12 or 15 consecutive posts….38,262 words in total – all properly cited for your researching pleasure.
This is important. One cannot say, “The GOP does have plans to replace obamacare, They tried a number of times to get a vote on them when Harry Reid was in charge, and he shot them down every time. He would not even let a vote be taken on them.”, without proof. This is implying that the Republicans actually put their plans to paper in the form of a bill.
As long as Bob’s post includes at least one bill from Congress that had a replacement of the PPACA, I will take it. Unfortunately, he has failed in this every time I have asked.
October 6, 2016 at 7:20 pm
DePolarBearables says:
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@Ron; the Republicans will have to pass it for YOU to see what’s in it. :)
October 7, 2016 at 7:48 am
Ron says:
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DePolarBearables,
They have had control of Congress for over a year and a half. Since they have had their own plan since 2008, what is taking so long?
When will you open your eyes and see they are just playing you for your vote. They have no interest in governing or you.
October 7, 2016 at 1:03 pm
DePolarBearables says:
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@Ron; when will YOU face the FACTS that ACA is a failure and there are several ways to fix affordability of insurance, as was done in other lines of insurance?
October 7, 2016 at 1:57 pm
Confused says:
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Yogi – how can you sincerely tell Ron he hasn’t faced the facts that the ACA is a failure when (1) he’s admitted that multiple times and (2) he’s taken the time — dozens of times now — to lay out his solution for you, bob, Agent, and so many others? Do you just not remember those posts???
October 10, 2016 at 12:24 pm
DePolarBearables says:
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Oh, yeah; Republicans controlling Congress didn’t previously bother introducing as a new proposed bill their soon to be revealed alternative to ACA because Obama would immediately veto it.
October 10, 2016 at 1:09 pm
bob says:
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Ok, no you are mixing events. I gave you CBO rated plans, and the fact that they didn’t get past congress you blame on republicans. There are proposed bills. Then you switched back to when they had control of the senate and congress, and I mentioned they passed medicare part D, and gave you a link that showed every healthcare fix they tried. You keep on going from “well yeah, that’s true but they didn’t do anything during Bush!” to “show me the plans you never showed me!” and then back when I show the plans to “well yeah, they didn’t pass anything during Bush!” We’ve had this argument countless times and you have a selective memory.
What you are doing is ignoring links you don’t like.
I don’t have time to educate you any longer. It’s getting old. See my other posts regarding the lists of old plans attempted to be passed in the past.
Here is the CBO plan again which democrats blocked.
You keep saying there were no bills proposed. Not all bills get to the floor, and that would not be the fault of the side who proposed it, but rather the one who blocked it, or the media who reported it as a bad plan before it was voted on and disallowed it to go any further. This is how the one I just posted was stopped. They said it wouldn’t cover as many insureds, BY CHOICE.
It offered enough credits, enough similar to Obamacare for them to purchase the insurance, the only reason the number of insureds would be low would be if those people offered help did not accept the help and CHOSE to not be insured. So instead of reduce the premium by about 21% compared to Obamacare, the media instead said that people were too stupid to make up their minds about insurance and therefore a plan that FORCED more people to have insurance with a 20% higher cost was better.
Here are more plans, and recent ones. They keep on presenting these, and you say there are NONE. That is your issue. NONE??? What the heck Ron??????
I have given you this CBO rated plan in the past. I’ll assume that since you said I failed, you forgot about this plan or think it doesn’t count for some reason (whereas I have mentioned it repeatedly you are surely actually misleading people on purpose, that’s what I should assume but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt which I shouldn’t) I’m going to ask right now, why does that proposed plan not count?
How about the new plan proposed this year? It probably will go no where as well. Why does that plan not count?
October 10, 2016 at 4:39 pm
Bob says:
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“As long as Bob’s post includes at least one bill from Congress that had a replacement of the PPACA, I will take it. Unfortunately, he has failed in this every time I have asked.”
So you have two bills. Now take it.
You keep repeating this lie that I have failed “every” time. You also make this mistake to agent saying republicans have presented “no” options.
Is this selective memory, or are you repeating the tactics of your liberals in media? Repeat a lie enough and if the person doesn’t defend themselves it becomes true? And if that person does defend themselves then you label their personality and temperament?
Sound a bit like the current election with Hillary much?
These tactics are not new Ron. You are either very forgetful or extremely dishonest and will employ any tactic possible to push your agenda.
October 11, 2016 at 8:31 am
Ron says:
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DePolarBearables,
You said, “Oh, yeah; Republicans controlling Congress didn’t previously bother introducing as a new proposed bill their soon to be revealed alternative to ACA because Obama would immediately veto it.”
Then why so many bills to repeal the PPACA?
October 11, 2016 at 9:06 am
DePolarBearables says:
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@Ron; to PROVIDE PROOF to the American public that Obama wants to veto anything that stands in the way of robbing more freedom from its citizens. In the case of vetoing repeals of ACA, they show their willingness to continue a failed program in order to control the public that depends on it instead of more affordable, market driven solutions. Examples of the latter are repeal of one-state licensing of HI Cos., and implementation of tax credits for Health Savings Accounts with NO CANCELLATION provisions and the right to bind despite existing health problems.
October 4, 2016 at 2:05 pm
Mr. Pocket says:
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Communism has failed each and every time it’s been tried Barry. You weren’t taught that after you registered as a foreign student?
Obamacare has been a disaster from day one just like obama has been. There was no problem before obamacare. It was all made up. If you wanted to get insurance before obama care, all you had to do is shop around and get the policy that would fit your needs. I had one for 7 years that way. If I had to have my own 1 more year, it would have been canceled on me and I would have had to go to the obamacare crap for triple the price and less coverage. So, no it is not a good system at all.
Didnt the democrat Super majority pass it despite Republicans Concerns.
Now its the GOP fault? Sorry but that Political well was poisoned the day it passed. Look at the Signing event Video “We made History said the Democrats and their leaders Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Reid, Top 4 Democrats in 2009. Hope the 2 boxes of Commemorative pens are framed on all their walls.
It was a historic day but maybe not for the reasons they wanted it to be.
Note to Future legislators… If you go it alone it better not effect to many of those you snub. They will self level the Political waters in the USA Triad of Government.
Where is my $2500? Obama knew his program that produces huge losses for insurance companies would self-destruct and then Democrats could come to the rescue with true socialized medicine run by the government as he desired in the first place. Thank goodness for Democrats. They will save us again from their own self-inflicted failures and have the audacity to take credit for it. And one wonders why there is such lack of confidence in our elected leaders??
Chuck, the wrong leaders were elected for the past 2 terms. Their ideas, lies, distortions have painted themselves into a corner. You think Obama has been bad for the country? Hilliary is Obama on steroids on every issue imaginable.
How can Trump wreck an economy that has already been wrecked by the worst President in a century? I rather like him lowering taxes on everyone, bringing back the $3-4 Trillion from offshore, getting rid of bad trade deals, getting rid of NAFTA and not making the Trans Pacific trade deal that Hilliary thought was “golden” and of course getting rid of the worst legislation ever passed by Congress. Progressive Socialists are the worst.
Trump will be blamed for anything that doesn’t go perfectly when he is POTUS.
The blame Bush train stops here and now.
October 5, 2016 at 8:24 am
Ron says:
Hot debate. What do you think?
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DePolarBearables,
And you guys do not blame President Obama for anything that has not gone well in the past 7+ years?
Hypocrite!!
October 5, 2016 at 10:26 am
DePolarBearables says:
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Yes, and he deserves every bit of blame for the abject failures he initiated!
October 5, 2016 at 10:42 am
Ron says:
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DePolarBearables,
So, are you saying it is OK to blame whoever is the current president for anything that does not go well at that time? Or do you flip-flop based on their political affiliation?
October 6, 2016 at 12:01 pm
DePolarBearables says:
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I said what I said. Re-read it and stop trying to put words in my jaws.
October 6, 2016 at 12:10 pm
Ron says:
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DePolarBearables,
I did not put words into your jaws, I asked you questions. Is simple grammar too much for you?
October 10, 2016 at 1:32 pm
bob says:
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“DePolarBearables,
And you guys do not blame President Obama for anything that has not gone well in the past 7+ years?
Hypocrite!!”
Parity of blame is not mandated by default. Research as to who to blame is.
He’s a hypocrite for blaming Obama for what Obama has done in office because he hasn’t yet blamed Trump, and will consider if Trump is actually at fault…
You are such a child.
October 11, 2016 at 8:38 am
Ron says:
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Bob,
No. He is a hypocrite for saying that a President Trump would be blamed for anything that doesn’t go perfectly well.
Now that we know Donald Trump has a very, very, very small chance of winning, the point is moot.
October 11, 2016 at 9:11 am
DePolarBearables says:
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@Ron; please provide PROOF that Trump has a very, very, very small chance of winning.
I would like to see which polls you are relying on, and their underlying assumptions about voter mix by party, demo, and tendency to vote in national elections.
Ready, … steady, … GO!
October 11, 2016 at 9:36 am
Ron says:
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DePolarBearables,
You missed a significant portion of my post. I stated, “Anyone who has a basic knowledge of the insurance mechanism and pricing KNOWS that there cannot be an affordable, FREE MARKET solution to health insurance, period.”
If you need to alter my words and incorrectly paraphrase what I said, you lose.
How would the free market offer an actuarial sound, affordable premium to someone with a chronic, pre-existing condition?
October 11, 2016 at 9:46 am
Ron says:
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DePolarBearables,
First, let me apologize. I should have begun with, “In my opinion…”
Second, even though Donald Trump won the debate on Sunday, I believe, in my opinion, he swayed very few, undecided voters. Since he has been consistently trailing Hillary Clinton the polls, he needs to do more than just shore up his base. Unfortunately, that is all he accomplished on Sunday.
@Ron; the FREE MARKET fixed many other problems in several other lines of insurance.
But, you are FREE to voice your OPINION on their ability to do so in the area of Health Insurance.
I await the election, and the ACTUAL voter turnout by demo group, including the unemployed no longer counted in the U3 stats, etc. who are angry enough to vote, and who will invalidate the projected turnout percentage used in Reuters, CNN, NBC, etc. polls, the latter group of which are based on HISTORIC turnouts under different economic and social scenarios of past years and decades.
After the election, we can discuss the proposals for fixing the HI and healthcare problems with a specific pathway based on control of Congress and The White House.
Until then, share your OPINION as often as you like. No one will bet any heavy sum of money on it, unless it is someone else’s money; e.g. US citizen’s tax receipts.
October 11, 2016 at 10:20 am
Ron says:
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DePolarBearables,
Fair enough. You are obviously too stubborn to be convinced that Republicans either, a.) have absolutely no interest in solving our health care/insurance problems, or b.) know that their ideas will not solve our health care/insurance problems.
How much would you be willing to bet that Donald Trump wins? I would be willing to wager 10X that amount that he loses.
October 5, 2016 at 12:28 pm
FFA says:
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Chuck. I believe they took every ones $2500 and put it in a plane and flew it to the top sponsor nation of terrorism.
DePolar, it is interesting that Progressive Socialists passing terrible legislation don’t own up to their disasters which start at the top. Then, they blame the opposing party who didn’t vote their way. Pelosi said they had to pass it to see what was in it and virtually no one read what was in it before voting for it. Totally partisan and totally wrong and the country is feeling the full effect of it now. Even Slick Willy said it was a disaster just yesterday. Hmm!
Yes, of course, it’s the Republican’s fault because everything that Obama touches is good, natural and good for you. So it couldn’t possible be because the ACA was doomed to fail before it ever got off the ground. When the socialists passed (shoved this bill down America’s throat) this bill, most of them hadn’t read a word of it and unless they had also Federalized all the health insurance carriers it didn’t have a snow ball’s chance in hell of working. And, it isn’t/didn’t/ain’t. Socialized medicine like almost all other socialist programs, failed as soon as the private sector could measure what was happening to their loss results. One of two things had to happen: either prices go up, or, benefits and services go down……like falling off of a cliff. The ACA was doomed because the idiots that conceived this disaster didn’t have the foresight or courage to face the fact that adverse selection was going to rule the day.
ACA is a bust and the only fault lies with the democrats who wouldn’t listen to reason but instead took advantage of their majority and screwed the American people, but they don’t care because most of their voting base is far to stupid to understand any of that and blaming the Republicans is much easier to do and ‘understand’. LOL. Stupid democrats following their savior……right out of office.
Pay a small penalty in your income tax filing or pay hyuuuge insurance premiums made so by adverse selection against the CO-OPs and insurers.
Not much choice there, if you have common sense.
Doomed to failure by design. Nacny shouldn’t have said what she said, which will live forever in infamy in video and audio recordings and political comment boards.
Depolar, a friend sent me the following by email and highlights what Progressives think and do.
I used to think I was just a regular guy, but I was born white, which now, whether I like it or not makes me a racist.
I am a fiscal and moral conservative, which by today’s standards, makes me a fascist.
I am heterosexual, which according to gay folks, now makes me a homophobe.
I am mostly non-union, which makes me a traitor to the working class and an ally to big business.
I am a Christian, which now labels me as an infidel.
I believe in the 2nd Amendment, which now makes me a member of the vast gun lobby.
I think and I reason, therefore I doubt that the main stream media tells me, must make me a reactionary.
I am proud of my heritage and our inclusive American Culture, which makes me a xenophobe.
I value my safety and that of my family and I appreciate the Police and the legal system which makes me a right-wing extremist.
I believe in hard work, fair play, and fair compensation according to each individuals merits which makes me an anti-socialist.
I believe in the defense and protection of the Homeland for and by all citizens and served in the Armed Forces, which now makes me a right wing militant.
Funny … its all just taken place over the last 8 years. As if all this nonsense wasn’t enough to deal with… I’m not sure which restroom to use. Progressive Socialism is a disease with no apparent cure.
Well, okay, now I know. If that is how a Progressive thinks and acts, I’m obviously NOT a Progressive. It’s either that, or your friend’s email couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s kind of like when Rush, the pill popper, tells his audience how an entire group of people think. Broad brush much there, Pillbury Doughboy? Limbaugh, what a liar!
And, yes, I put this out there because Agent loves to call me Progressive all the time. Even though I’ve told him 100 times I’m registered Indie. I even voted for some local R’s here in my home state of Iowa. Bill Northey to name one.
October 9, 2016 at 6:34 am
DePolarBearables says:
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voter registration doesn’t bind anyone to a particular political philosophy or group of candidates.
October 6, 2016 at 12:12 pm
Deplorables says:
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Jax, good post. If you are in Jacksonville, Fl, I wish you well and hope it doesn’t get too bad from Matthew.
By the way, we have been calling Progressive Democrats “Lemmings” for years because they were jumping into the pit following Obama and his merry minions.
Let’ hope Hillary doesn’t get elected and implement Hillacatastrophe Coverage… free property insurance if you aren’t insured and a hurricane or other natural catastrophe hits your town.
Hillary Clinton will be the next president because the Republicans put forth another candidate who is even worse. Why can your party not give us someone reasonable?
I notice president Obama’s approval rating is now up to 55%. I cannot help but wonder how much of that is due to the 2 worst candidates that have ever been put forth.
He doesn’t have to state his opinion is an opinion, and with regards to proving that polls and the media eschew toward Obama, those will always be common sense opinions.
As for the Illegal immigrants, that one is common sense but you know darn well legal immigrants already lean to Obama, what makes you think that illegal ones wouldn’t?
October 10, 2016 at 2:34 pm
bob says:
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Ultimately I think why you don’t like Agent is the same basic thing that makes you not like republicans.
You don’t like that he’s pissed off, or how he talks.
Focus on the concepts, not how someone speaks. That is really rather elitist, and it certainly is not progressive.
October 7, 2016 at 4:29 pm
DePolarBearables says:
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20 M + Illegal Immigrants in the USA and no one taking polls check each polled person’s citizenship status when they make their calls. Hence, participation in favorability polls by those who are getting free stuff despite not being citizens.
I still don’t see how that PROVES illegal immigrants are influencing those polls. If nobody is checking citizenship status, how can you KNOW those folks are (or are not) included in the polling?
You could theoretically say Buddhists are influencing polling too because they live in America and nobody is asking people their religion when taking the poll.
Neither stance PROVES anything. It’s just unsubstantiated conjecture.
October 8, 2016 at 8:25 am
DePolarBearables says:
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No one can PROVE anything to a liberal that he/ she doesn’t WANT to believe.
October 8, 2016 at 1:04 pm
Confused says:
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I’ll believe anything anyone is able to PROVE with facts. I won’t believe things people spout off as truth, have no evidence to support it, and then insult those who ask for the source of said “facts.”
October 9, 2016 at 6:38 am
DePolarBearables says:
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You start by PROVING both Clintons should NOT be thrown in jail for the rest of their lives.
Ready, steady, go!
October 9, 2016 at 11:14 am
Confused says:
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I don’t think you get how conversation works, Agent.
If you claim a statistic is true and I ask you to support your claim, you have to support it or explain why you can’t.
It doesn’t work like this: If you claim a statistic is true and I ask you to support your claim, you insult me and then I have to prove something off-topic that I never said.
Let’s try again. Can you prove the statistic you posted with any source that could be double-checked and verified?
October 10, 2016 at 2:35 pm
bob says:
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“still don’t see how that PROVES illegal immigrants are influencing those polls. If nobody is checking citizenship status, how can you KNOW those folks are (or are not) included in the polling?”
Math? Statistics? Random polling should include the 20 million illegals at a ratio equal to their proportion of the population.
…
(many) Polls don’t check for citizenship.
October 11, 2016 at 1:11 pm
Deplorables says:
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DePolar, polls are a joke and many are left leaning and paid off by Democrats to favor their side.
October 11, 2016 at 1:34 pm
Ron says:
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Agent,
Polls are a joke except for when they support your narrative, right?
October 11, 2016 at 4:13 pm
Confused says:
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bob “Polls don’t check for citizenship.”
therefore nobody can honestly say “this poll is invalid because non-citizens were polled, or they weren’t polled at their proportionate share” because there’s no data to support that claim, right?
100% of those polled COULD be citizens, or 100% COULD be non-citizens, or any percent combination thereof, right? there’s no data to support either contention, right?
I asked agent to support his argument with source data to prove his argument that “BHO approval rating is artificially bolstered by…illegal immigrants voting in he polls” and he can’t.
I approached this using your “acceptable” way of debate, yet Agent insulted me in reply. When you saw this exchange, you defended him. Why? He made up some nonsense and insulted me when I asked him to support it. Why did you defend him?
Like I said, if nobody is checking citizenship status, how can you KNOW those folks are (or are not) included in the polling? You could theoretically say Buddhists are influencing polling too because they live in America and nobody is asking people their religion when taking the poll. Neither stance PROVES anything. It’s just unsubstantiated conjecture.
October 11, 2016 at 4:26 pm
Bob says:
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Confused,
Your level of ignorance is astounding.
“therefore nobody can honestly say “this poll is invalid because non-citizens were polled, or they weren’t polled at their proportionate share” because there’s no data to support that claim, right? ”
Ok, no. Do you use your brain at all? I already explained this. Yes, they can. If we know there are 20 million illegal immigrants, and we know legal immigrants lean toward Obama due to the aspect of immigration, we can assume the demographics will have the same rough percentages if not higher in support of Obama.
Then all you do, is use math. You will when calling run into these people representative of their proportion of the population.
You are trying to find reason to disregard logic and label based on behavior of saying a comment in itself, and I am NOT ok with this! You can’t just run around saying things like this to discredit anyone who doesn’t speak exactly how you demand.
The comment was reasonable. We aren’t going to have paragraphs to explain common speech, which if you have an issue with that you have a problem with common decency!
Stop with the smart butt comments for the love of God!
October 11, 2016 at 4:29 pm
Bob says:
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When we have to have an argument based on a simple comment confused the problem is your behavior. Not Agent’s sytle of speech.
I’m going to sound like a liberal for a moment, and I know you’re the age to KNOW this is a liberal comment and I KNOW you have heard it:
Stop being so up tight about how people talk, ZOMG.
If you’re going to engage in this controlling of behavior, to shadow over facts and discredit people, that is the problem with America.
Grow, the heck, up. Put on your big boy pants, act like an adult.
October 11, 2016 at 4:35 pm
Bob says:
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Ok, let’s end this. I hate it when people debate like this.
I deal in facts. The whole lot of you leftists here talk out of your butt and then you say Agent does. Every time he doesn’t talk how you want you throw your version of a tantrum to shut him down. This is immoral, it is immature, and it is totalitarian in nature. The first thing to go in totalitarian nations is free speech. Everything suddenly has to be worded a certain way. Go watch V for Vendetta, and compare yourself to those who controlled speech in that. Maybe a movie will make you think better, I’m sure you operate in logics like that as it is.
But to solve this, links forthcoming. 71%!!! 71!!!! And we have no reason to believe that 20 million illegal immigrants (6% of the population) at a rate of probably by now 80% considering how much Hispanics don’t like Trump (making now a 4.8% total increase for Obama and or Hillary) isn’t boosting their approval ratings? We don’t know that we are asking illegal immigrants? More like why are we assuming they won’t be represented in the polls. That’s my question. How stupid are you? Why are YOU assuming they won’t be represented in the polls in proportion to their relative proportion of the population? The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that, because by default, math dictates that we MUST include them representative to their portion of the population, which would go along with Deplorables comment. How baby talk do I have to break this down for your mind to understand it?
I even made a mistake there which made my numbers too low for the influence.
I used his Hispanics as a percentage of the overall population to determine their amount of the total vote. That doesn’t make sense to do.
Hispanics as a percentage of the overall actual votes makes more sense.
Hispanics were 10 percent of all voters in the 2012 election and they voted 71% Obama. This means they swayed the election by 7.1%, and we can assume they will help in the polls by a similar margin for Obama and Hillary.
DePolar, isn’t it interesting that Progressives have no life experience or common sense, don’t observe what is going on in the world? If we post anything, they always want a link and if we do that, they don’t believe it. Your comment of a liberal not believing anything they don’t want to believe is spot on.
October 10, 2016 at 12:30 pm
DePolarBearables says:
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Liberals need links because liberal teachers never provided them the truth when they were in liberal schools.
The current feud about Obama’s popularity rating is based on OPINIONS, yet liberals are asking for ‘proof’. Polls are what polls are, and no one stated the polls EXCLUDE illegal alien immigrants. So, without PROOF that the popularity / approval rating polls are unbiased, I can assume they include people who are dependent on Obama for food stamps, free cell phones, etc.
October 10, 2016 at 12:59 pm
Captain Planet says:
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First, Yogi, the phones didn’t start under President Obama. They started under George W. Who, was a candidate everyone wanted to have a beer with. The current Republican candidate is one some want to grab a (eh-hem) with. Who also told Howard Stern it was okay to call his daughter a piece of a_ _. Stay classy, Drumpf!
October 10, 2016 at 2:59 pm
DePolarBearables says:
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Wait until the ACA premium hikes hit the fan in November, and take Obama’s favorability ratings then.
October 10, 2016 at 4:01 pm
Deplorables says:
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Bob, I know you have made an attempt to play nice with Confused so he won’t rant at you so much. How many links have you provided to him on just Healthcare, but also on other subjects? Has he believed you even once or has he continued to argue for arguments sake? That is why I don’t provide links to him or the now infamous UW. Also, Ron has a bad habit of saying provide the links to support your position. He also discounts your links every single time. Actu seems to be the new actor in swearing on this site. He has been reported.
October 10, 2016 at 4:35 pm
Bob says:
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I’m not sure if he has said I’m right on anything. Sometimes people don’t do that at the time of the conversation yet they change their positions over time and don’t even know what the catalyst was. I may have an impact, I’m not sure.
In terms of me with him, I gave him the benefit of the doubt on the gun issue a while back if you recall and some others here said I probably should not do that.
Yet I’m sure I’m still considered the conservative Anti-Christ to many liberals here. I really don’t see how they consider I’m the most extreme conservative.
October 10, 2016 at 1:35 pm
bob says:
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By plans alone, Trump is better than Hillary. Only through the labels you throw at him is he worse.
McCain was better than Obama. Romney was better than Obama. You moderates are refusing to let republicans win. Everything they do you assign blame. When they try to fix things and remove bad plans you call them bad, even when trying to take known things out of the government that are bad.
The issue is not conservatives and people like Agent saying these guys have to go.
Bob, I respectfully disagree that Obama is worse than Hilliary. She is Obama on steroids and will make everything exponentially worse if elected. Both are terrible and criminal. I liked that Trump said he would put her in jail. Unfortunately, the pardon would save her from time.
If we are talking morally, Clinton is worse and will certainly be a politician in bad terms.
However, if we talk about the plans she will pass, we are talking QE, Stimulus, PPACA, the battle methods on the gun front which I don’t think Hillary will be adept enough to push more gun control and then lie and say republicans are bad on it, I think she will lose that battle, I think Obama is worse.
She doesn’t have a plan to prop up housing prices and all that jazz either.
You can’t get much worse than Obama’s passed plans. I think the public will put a stop to some of it, and she’s going to try and back off and make everyone else seem crazy but will be stuck from doing to much. She will never get as much as Obama did.
October 11, 2016 at 3:10 pm
Bob says:
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What really would have done us in is if Bernie won.
And the sad thing is my generation is clueless as to the damage it would have caused if Bernie managed to get any plans passed or converted the left to be more towards the socialism side of the spectrum.
That would have literally been the worst president in our history.
I think people are exaggerating in terms of Hillary. I view her as slightly worse than average. I view Obama as a lot worse than average. I view Carter as the same. I view Clinton as average. I view FDR as the worst democrat we have had in history. This is where many people gasp and say I’m clearly partisan. The only reason people like FDR is they are taught to in school. The only person who has plans to possibly out do him is Bernie. The last democrat I respect and think was good was JFK, as he finally admitted that tax reductions made sense.
That should give you some idea of my metric scale on the left.
Now here is where I get weird. Due to the plans Bush W tried to pass but didn’t get, and I have listed the ones I liked, I rank Bush W as average good. I rank Reagan is very good. I rank Bush HW as bad, possibly as bad as I do Hillary. And in an odd one, while paranoid and over the top, I rank Nixon as average for a republican president. Whitewater was a trivial case compared to today and since his presidency. He did pass some good plans, even some affirmative action which most people don’t realize. I rank Ford as invisible. Hah. I don’t care for or against him. I don’t even call that average. I just call it 4 years that was blank in my mind.
So to recap:
Democrats from worst to best:
Bernie
FDR
Obama
Carter
Hillary
Bill Clinton
Republicans worst to best:
George HW
Nixon
Ford
Eisenhower (tie with Bush W)
Bush W
Reagan
And combined worst to best
Bernie
FDR
Obama
Carter
George HW Bush (I really don’t like this guy which should show you how much I don’t like most politicians that he is still a ways in)
Hillary
Nixon
Ford
Bill Clinton (We have finally reached someone I am luke warm in, showing again how much I really don’t like most politicians)
Eisenhower (First politician I like)
Bush W
Reagan
October 11, 2016 at 3:13 pm
Bob says:
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Oops, I left out JFK:
Bernie
FDR
Obama
Carter
George HW Bush (I really don’t like this guy which should show you how much I don’t like most politicians that he is still a ways in)
Hillary
Nixon
Ford
Bill Clinton (We have finally reached someone I am luke warm in, showing again how much I really don’t like most politicians)
Eisenhower (First politician I like)
Bush W
JFK
Reagan
October 11, 2016 at 3:16 pm
Bob says:
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So something my list shows about me:
In the first point, note the politicians I like. I’m not talking the people I am luke warm on or do not like. There are obviously a lot of democrats I think are on the worst end of the spectrum. But when you get to who I like, my second to highest is JFK.
And this isn’t due to civil rights like most people like him for.
This is largely due to breaking from democrat lines. He cut taxes and went against the typical democrat policies. He was aggressive to Cuba and strong on foreign issues. He was not about over regulating.
Unlike most people my age I don’t like JFK because it is popular and feels good to do so. I like him because I know his plans.
October 10, 2016 at 5:45 pm
Nancy says:
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Lie #1…you can keep your doctor. Nope, had to find a new doctor.
Lie #2…you can keep your healthplan. Nope, plan was cancelled.
Fast forward to October 2016…Have been on Obamacare for 2 years now. Thank goodness my husband just qualified for Medicare, so he is off Obamacare. The premium was increasing an additional $400.00 per month starting 1/1/17. The Silver PPO in CA has been changed by Blue Cross to an EPO, meaning anything out of network is NOT COVERED except emergency. Thanks!
So, would you believe anything Hillary has to say about FIXING ACA?
I know of a few variations as to how Republicans hope to fix it by REPEALING it and starting with health savings accounts with tax breaks. The other feature is removal of licensing restrictions that impede competition by multiple private health insurers across multiple / all state lines. The key feature is enticing people to BUY health insurance when they are young. THAT last feature is a proprietary aspect of several of their proposals that is still controlled by the authors.
HSAs and tax breaks do not address the cost of health care issue. Neither does allowing the selling of policies across state lines. That addresses the health insurance competition issue.
Are you advocating to remove health care insurance regulations from the states and handing it over to the Federal Government? If you allow companies to sell across state lines, it becomes interstate commerce. You do realize that, don’t you?
How do you entice people to buy something they do not believe they need?
Oy vey, you switch gears so poorly. Deplorables already said this well on point 1:
The ACA doesn’t fix cost, and by the CBO numbers makes it worse. It increases the cost by 21% compared to the republican plan.
2: The credits are to solve the uninsured problem, and if you are saying that HSA’s and tax breaks don’t help with that, you are wrong.
A tax break to help the poor buy insurance and 21% lower premiums won’t do much to help our insurance problem because it doesn’t do anything to help cost in your mind? At what point should we act? Or do we only act when democrats put garbage up for vote like this, and then blame republicans for things not getting better?
So essentially cutting costs 21% and then giving credits which help people to buy insurance doesn’t do a large amount to help the poor with regards to insurance…
…
…
…
Also, the plan would need no new taxes and would be deficit neutral, whereas the 21$ higher premiums required tax increases to be deficit neutral.
…
…
Tell me why we should not have passed the republican plan.
And, apparently republicans are all about life and helping people as you said it recently until they are down trodden in their life after birth.
In light of the above, and the republican plan which gave credits (which helps ensure people work for insurance instead of larger emphasis on subsidies) we can safely assume your other comment was just you saying things based on your emotional issues and not facts.
You of all people don’t get to talk about hypocrisy. I know I wreck your world and the safe space you made for your high and mighty self in regards to blaming both sides so in your mind you’re not at fault and everyone else is in politics…But you need a wake up call.
As I said before I’m mostly talking at you, so people see your ideals beaten in public and don’t fall for it, but I do hope you eventually change from this.
If anything you said was coherent and addressed what I stated, maybe it would have stung.
My ideals are standing strong because I am able to defend them to rational people.
October 12, 2016 at 10:20 am
Deplorables says:
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Bob, how many years has it been that you have been beating your head against the Ron wall? Have you made any gains in that battle? He is still as hard headed as ever. He should be having nightmares on his choice of Obama for two terms, but he doesn’t and he still thinks someone promoting Socialism for the country, poor governing, poor policies and dividing the country is a great thing. Amazing!
October 13, 2016 at 12:51 pm
Bob says:
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I don’t know how many years, but it’s more about beating his ideals in public at this point, so he doesn’t cause people to go in the wrong direction.
October 13, 2016 at 12:57 pm
Ron says:
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Bob,
First, you are not beating my ideals. We actually have very similar ideals.
Second, Even you think either one of us are that influential, you are far more narcissistic that I thought.
October 11, 2016 at 4:56 pm
Deplorables says:
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Amazing Ron. You should be aware that people did buy Health Insurance in the pre-Obama era and many liked their plans. Unfortunately for them, 6 million policies were cancelled and they were forced to buy Obamacare through a failed website we spent $1 Billion on.
Oh, yeah; CONTROLLING costs is a feature that ACA didn’t bother to address. In fact, ACA exacerbated costs by SUBSIDIZING THEM, after removal of some of the healthier risks through exemptions to about 2,000 employers or unions. Yes, exemptions increased the overall costs because employees and union members are generally healthier than the general population because they get regular health care service. Removing them through exemptions leaves a less healthy pool of risks whose costs are spread to the participants in health insurance under ACA provisions.
The problems arising under ACA are either the result of a carefully crafted plan to move toward a single payer system, assuming that Dems will remain in control of the White House after Obama’s 2nd term ends, OR a major blunder by a incredibly incompetent group of knuckleheads led by Gruber, Jarrett, Pelosi, and Reid, among many others.
Because you refuse to acknowledge the people who have tried to pass good plans?
Because you refuse to vote for them and instead rely on character assaults, blanket statements about spending, and gotcha’s in politics instead of actual policy.
… and the dumbest people will still vote for Dems, hoping they will fix ACA. Einstein had a definition that fits that group of people.
IF anyone voting for a Dem for POTUS or Senator wants to explain HOW their Communi…, er, Dem candidates will REVERSE the HYUUUGE increases in health care costs, WITHOUT USING premium SUBSIDIES (disguised as NEW TAXES or shifts of fungible federal tax revenues to health care premiums), please do so in reply to this post.
So, in some ways, and in limited instances, Gruber was correct.
DePolar, the dumbest people will vote for Dems because they are lazy and like the Obama entitlement society that he has promoted for the past 8 years. Why work when you can get the taxpayers to support you? You can be part of the 94.5 million over age 16 who choose not to work or can’t find work and give up looking. Then, the Dems proudly proclaim that they have a 5% unemployment rate and they create jobs. Unfortunately, they overlook the labor participation rate which is the lowest in 40 years.
There have been numbers that have shown the baby boomers are not the reason behind the lower LPR.
Whenever I show it isn’t the baby boomers you and Ron then comment on those who are still in college. When I show it isn’t those in college you then bring up the baby boomers.
Confused, get a grip. The LPR is high and people are out of work due to bad policies. Stop justifying a sustained bad scenario in terms of employment. Claiming employment issues doesn’t exist right now is not at all appropriate.
I provided context to Agent’s quote that there are 94.5M unemployed folks over 16 years old.
You know that number includes all retirees, but not everyone knows that. That’s why I posted the extra context around that number.
I did not attack him, I didn’t ask for source data, I didn’t say or imply unemployment issues are nonexistent.
He said there are 94.6M unemployed and I simply added that retirees are counted as unemployed in that number.
October 12, 2016 at 5:15 pm
Bob says:
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Confused,
Which by default downplays the severity of unemployment. Rather than contributing and showing we have a problem, you dismissed someone who is clearly riled up about the problem.
I didn’t accuse you of an attack. I accused you of diverting attention from a real problem.
October 12, 2016 at 5:23 pm
Bob says:
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So let me show you what kids see, and see if you can relate and realize this based on how you think yourself when you see people like Agent.
Someone who is pissed off about the bad economy says they are pissed off about it, but is not an economic expert (as most voters aren’t) and makes a slight mistake in their numbers.
Then people swoop in and correct him, inclusive of moderates.
The moderates who correct him look civil. These are the people kids listen to. All they see is this:
Leftist – Attack
Right wing response – Attack
Moderate who does the mild correction you did: Person to listen to.
However, they too are not well versed on politics, so now they conclude that there is no employment problem, and that the original poster has no credibility and should not be listened to.
So all debate was stopped, because a moderate came in and made a comment that didn’t add to the conversation. If instead a moderate said your numbers are little off, and here’s what I think the issue is with unemployment, people would banter.
If moderates didn’t come in saying “stop talking like that” people would still debate when they “argue”.
But instead, everything is shut down before a conversation can be had.
October 12, 2016 at 5:33 pm
Bob says:
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So to date you’ve argued about the definition of stagnation to say agent didn’t have that right.
He’s wrong about who is included in the unemployed.
This is setting up the youth to listen to the left when they claim baby boomers aren’t why the LPR is low, and to ignore the bad LPR.
Then it is setting up kids to believe that incomes are not stagnant. It is also making them believe inflation is not bad. The government is manipulating that number by the way. They use an average that monitors the wrong things. When I graduated the apartments by me were $550 for a 2 bedroom. They are now $1,250. In that same time frame, house values around me are still not what they were before the recession. My house was $330,000 in 2007. I bought it at $200,000. The current value is $230,000. Houses in all of WA are the same. So we have much lower housing costs but much higher rent costs. Incomes? I kid you not, are exactly the same. Despite a higher technical minimum wage, I have consistently seen people making just as much as they did before the recession, or if any more, $2,000 per year. We have $9,600 additional housing costs for people just moving out on their own, and only $2,000 additional income, as well as blown up health insurance costs.
If we had let the housing market bottom out, houses would be even cheaper for one. Which is good, and thereafter the middle class would have tons left over. Second of all we should have done something about rent regulations. This is where I differ from republicans where I will now say that the amount of profit you should be able to receive per house should be a certain band of the amount the house costs you.
And then next: If we didn’t pass the ACA health care would be 20% less from an insurance stand point. Mine costs just from what I cover, $8,000 a year roughly. 20% less would be $1,600 per year. If houses were 20% less it would be $1,300 roughly down to $1,040 on a mortgage payment, or $3,120 a year for a rough $220,000 home (close to the median house price)
These two areas alone would make people have $4,720 more disposable income in the middle class range.
We then don’t need as much government spending. We don’t need as much taxes.
This is what we need to do. End this government over reach, and do reasonable government regulation.
October 12, 2016 at 5:34 pm
Bob says:
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To show something important I should say when I bought my house:
2009. In 7 years my house value has gone up to $230,000, and is still under the $330,000 original cost in 2007.
That being the case, in 2007 you could rent out the houses by me for $1,200 a month. I just talked with someone who is being charged $2,000.
There’s something wrong with those numbers. Buying the houses cheap and then running the rent higher that is.
October 11, 2016 at 9:53 am
DePolarBearables says:
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This explains a lot about this websites’ comments section, as well as some other nationally recognized media outlets blog pages and comments sections….
Oh yeah, just like you didn’t really support Obama it’s just that McCain was terrible (well, Palin is who you said you didn’t like more, which is really just you being sexist. Yeah, I said it. Obama factually had less experience than Palin, you just didn’t like a woman with make up being womanly and a politician). It’s just that Romney was bad. It’s just that Trump was bad. The next election it will be the republican’s fault again that you keep electing the worst democrat politicians we have had since Carter.
Let me enlighten you: Even if a republican passed NO plans, it would be better than any of the democrat plans going through. When you increase insurance costs by 21% and then subsidize it, it’s only a matter of time before you bankrupt the nation. Then when you do energy control measures for environmentally friendly aspects at a high cost to performance ratio, that won’t solve the issue even if it were real, you bankrupt the nation further.
I did vote for President Obama. I WILL NOT vote for Hillary Clinton.
If you are free to make the assumption that I am against Sarah Palin because I sexist, then I am free to make the assumption that you do not like President Obama because you are a racist and against Hillary Clinton because you are a sexist. Fair enough?
You can stop doing this any time you wish. It is a free country.
Ron, we give you permission not to blog again. We need an apology from you for voting for Obama twice. Once should have been enough, but you didn’t wake up and smell the coffee (stench) from Obama. By the way, Johnson (what is Aleppo) is not a good choice either. Stay home this time and leave it to the adults.
October 12, 2016 at 8:28 am
Ron says:
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Bob,
Are you going to continue to defend Agent now that he has instructed a fellow United States citizen to not vote? It does not get more un-American than that.
I have NEVER questioned or criticized someone else’s vote nor instructed someone else to not vote.
October 12, 2016 at 12:50 pm
Bob says:
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When have you ever seen me defend an assault Ron?
I believe you’re asking that solely because you believe somehow I am encouraging unfair behavior. I only defend agent when he’s being attacked.
On the other post: I never said you will vote for Hillary, but the way you are approaching this is why she will win. When you have two candidates and the policies of one will put us backwards, and the other one, as you yourself said, will not likely be able to get his plans, you go with the one who won’t get their plans.
Or if you’re like me, you realize Trumps plans are good, and hope he does. But in no scenario is it ok to run around blasting people as hypocrites and fools for wanting to vote Trump.
October 12, 2016 at 1:04 pm
Bob says:
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Very well, I will do this, and I have done it before. You should remember me saying something like “darn it, you have to argue in such a way that conservatives look reasonable” and more recently I commented on his post about Bill Clinton and rape. I don’t care for that style of debate. In fact I think it’s stupid.
I will now enter my commentary again, him saying you shouldn’t be able to vote is basically silly.
Are we good now?
October 12, 2016 at 1:15 pm
Ron says:
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Bob,
Why do you an Agent believe my vote is so influential that I will be the one to determine who is the next president? My vote is my voice and the message I intend to send is that none of the candidates are acceptable.
Let me put it another way:
1. Do you believe a US citizen should criticize another US citizen’s vote?
2. Do you believe a US citizens should instruct another US citizen to not vote?
You do realize that we do not vote for a presidential candidates domestic plans, right? We are really voting for who we want to be the face of the country and represent us on the world stage. If you want that to be Donald Trump, fine. Just understand why you are voting for a candidate. If you do not believe me, trying reading the Constitution. Show me where it says the president determines the tax code, trade agreements, health care, etc. If Congress does not want to work with him, he does not get anything done. If you do not believe me, ask President Obama.
October 12, 2016 at 2:05 pm
Bob says:
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It’s not your vote I’m concerned with. It’s how you talk about the voting process this year. I know how people operate and I know that if people talked about policy instead of the disbelief of what Trump may have paid for taxes, or what he may have said about women or Mexicans, and instead focused on the benefit of a wall, or ignored the supposed Muslim rhetoric and instead focused on policy to cause people to push back against the Islamic extremism, that we would have people that were not freaking out about this election. You are causing others to spiral out of control like triggered snow flakes, and then they don’t focus on facts. They focus on childish insults of politicians. Whether or not Hillary handled her emails and national security well is entirely different and related to her qualifications as a president, whether or not Trump said any of the above is not linked to his ability to be a president and his policy. I know the influence people like you have, because you make what you say popular to the youth, and then people like me are seen as the great dividers, instead of the wise people we are.
In reply to your questions:
“1. Do you believe a US citizen should criticize another US citizen’s vote?”
Yes. Absolutely, this is the only way to get them to reflect. You can vote wrong, and you should be made aware of the why.
“2. Do you believe a US citizens should instruct another US citizen to not vote?”
I already covered this. No.
October 12, 2016 at 2:09 pm
Bob says:
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What I see in kids is this desire to vote for the person who throws bones to social justice. Oh, he’s for the poor. Oh, he’s for gays. Oh, he’s for muslims.
And then, he didn’t pay fair taxes! He lied! Etc.
I don’t see people saying:
I like that plan.
In fact, I don’t see many people who know about republican plans. They instead become like you: They literally think they don’t exist and then start complaining about republicans not passing plans (because democrats lie and tell them this) and they can’t focus on reality.
Your type of behavior is exactly the issue. You keep missing plans Ron, surely you know this by now with how often I keep showing you them.
At one point in the past you even admitted I was right, that these were better plans. You probably forgot given you said I have failed every time to show plans. What you told me was well then they failed to sell it to the public. I then said it is not the fault of republicans that media didn’t do it’s job. And you said they should have done a better job of getting it out there, and I asked you how? I then asked when will you blame the people blocking their ability to do so? They don’t have infinite money and broadcast time or access to the methods to inform voters. Schools are dominated by liberals. Media is dominated by liberals. They can’t get truth out there.
October 12, 2016 at 2:28 pm
Ron says:
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Bob,
I know Republicans have plans and have acknowledged as such. My issue is their failure to govern when they have majorities, then find a way to blame the Democrats.
Now, they are divided among themselves because of their candidate’s behavior that is less than presidential. That is not just my opinion, it is fact.
I admire those that will not just tow the company line and will stick by their own principles.
How can we expect a President Trump to heal and unite the country when he has single-handedly divided his own party?
October 12, 2016 at 2:44 pm
Bob says:
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“I know Republicans have plans and have acknowledged as such. My issue is their failure to govern when they have majorities, then find a way to blame the Democrats. ”
In just this page you said I have failed to show any bills. This means you either were using ad hominem and knew plans existed but were mocking me (inappropriate and unlikely) or you didn’t know about the plans. Stop laying games Ron!
But back on the concept you just said:
You have no evidence of this, and I have proved the contrary. We don’t blame someone because they have a majority. If 10% of a majority of republicans don’t vote together on a bill, and 90% of democrats don’t vote for the bill, then we should be blaming the base 90% democrats failure to govern, not the 100% of republicans for 10% of their base. Also: The reason they haven’t been able to govern is democrats refuse to pass anything. This is a failure to govern on the part of democrats and you have not held them liable for it.
“Now, they are divided among themselves because of their candidate’s behavior that is less than presidential. That is not just my opinion, it is fact.”
Correction, liberals are destroying Trump so badly, republicans don’t know whether to unite behind Trump and allow their entire party to be destroyed or to go against him. Being divided is better than being united when it comes to these things. It shows you banter and disagree. At some point varying opinions will then come together and make a good plan. However, Democrats only operate when people agree to start. They don’t disagree first and come together. They operate trying to agree first and then moving forward. This is why they throw out constant republican gun control bills, and constantly throw out republican healthcare bills.
“I admire those that will not just tow the company line and will stick by their own principles.”
This contradicts with what you just said above. Division is bad, except for…When it’s good. Very nice logic there.
“How can we expect a President Trump to heal and unite the country when he has single-handedly divided his own party?”
This is idealistic and stupid. Sorry Ron. How can we expect him to heal the country? By not baby talking the country. The division currently is indefinitely from democrats. Sorry, it’s just a fact, to quote you. There have been 1,500 black lives matters protests since Obama started speaking pretty about black lives matters. 15 mother @%@#%ing hundred Ron. There have only been what, under 10 black people shot, (the majority of which were attacking police officers or ignoring commands). And the hands up don’t shoot, when Obama commented on that lie, that is what triggered them.
In the first point:
When Trump’s plans help the nation people won’t be divided as much.
In the second point:
We don’t elect presidents based on how they appear to be presidential. We elect them based on plans.
Also, I will finally speak some religion here.
Go look in the bible for the end of times. What does it say about the people who will destroy the Earth? Does it say sinners will do it? No. Not your average sinner anyway. It says the people in control of the nations who TALK AS IF THEY ARE GODLY WHEN THEY ARE NOT will destroy the world. You’re a Catholic. Go look it up. I don’t have time to find the verse. The bible specifically talks about a group of leader types of people who will speak well and spread lies and mislead others.
So who do you think fits this bill, that could mislead the masses, and is telling people things that are against the bible are ok, was just recently in leaked emails shown to condemn Catholics as the “bastardization” of faith, and has been pushing everything God doesn’t like? (Abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, free rides, forced wealth distribution, etc?) Who is sounding like they are claiming they are for just morals all the time in the public eye, and is SUCCEEDING en masse?
Who is united in planned parenthood, using that to attach healthcare of women to abortion so that if you want women to have healthcare you must kill? That’s a clever one. Instead of separating it and shutting that down?
You talk about the fact that republicans don’t talk well more than anything else. It’s absurd. We are going to focus on plans. Not you’re idealistic “divisive behavior” crap.
October 12, 2016 at 3:01 pm
Bob says:
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““I know Republicans have plans and have acknowledged as such. My issue is their failure to govern…”
I suppose I left out one other possibility which is the most likely. They have good plans but you blame them for not being able to pass them.
This still makes your comment at me absurd when you said I failed to show bills.
It means yet again you like the plans republicans have but will vote democrat simply because bills aren’t being passed, and you think that is the fault of republicans instead of the democrats who are getting in the way, and then reward the democrats who got in the way.
You’ve got to get wiser with your voting habits.
October 12, 2016 at 4:24 pm
Bob says:
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Also, when you can’t talk and tell someone to stay home and leaving voting to the pros,
Which is a lecture, it is not actually a call to not vote,
And you then say this:
“2. Do you believe a US citizens should instruct another US citizen to not vote?””
I think you miss how to talk as well. And that is another issue I have with you. I’m not going to walk on eggshells when I talk to the youth, something your side is making happen.
THAT is divisive. Making people have to walk through the land mines on how to speech. Screw that. That alone is enough for me to not be democrat. I support people who don’t talk well. I support people who use ridicule and expressions to make their points and to ridicule bad points.
When the day has arrived that you are taking it far too seriously that Agent told you not to vote, we have an issue.
You shouldn’t even be asking me that 2nd question. It shows your immaturity.
October 13, 2016 at 8:41 am
Ron says:
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Bob,
You said, “It means yet again you like the plans republicans have but will vote democrat simply because bills aren’t being passed, and you think that is the fault of republicans instead of the democrats who are getting in the way, and then reward the democrats who got in the way.”
When did I say I only vote for Democrats. I have previously stated that I vote mostly for Republicans. I have even said I like most of the Republican plans. Why do you miss it when I say those things?
In my opinion, we need less Democrats and Republicans and more Independents.
October 13, 2016 at 4:06 pm
Deplorables says:
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Ron, as usual, your reading comprehension fails you. Since you have a very poor track record on voting after proudly proclaiming you studied positions on Romney and Obama, you turned around and voted for Obama twice. Obviously, your analysis and beliefs are Progressive Liberal and not Independent which would at least look at backgrounds of candidates before pulling the lever. You were a supporter of Obama for Obamacare before you were against it. Sounds a lot like Kerry, doesn’t it? I still don’t see how anyone in their right mind could have possibly voted for the worst President in the past century. Liberal Koolaid muddles the mind.
October 11, 2016 at 4:26 pm
Confused says:
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fact: Hillary Clinton pays trolls to comment positively on her behalf
theory: Agent said this explain’s a lot of people who post here
fact: The two biggest “progressive socialists” that post here per agent (myself and Ron) have come out saying we don’t like Hillary. I have said she is a super-duper liar many times, and both Ron and I admit we won’t be voting for her.
theory: agent lives in an alternate reality
fact: if there were paid trolls were posting positive comments for Hillary on IJ, someone would have seen them by now. “Hillary” appears 24 times “Clinton” appears 15 times on this page. there are 0 positive posts about hillary or clinton in the 137+ comments above.
theory: agent cannot support his theory with any evidence
(please prove me wrong agent – where are those pro-hillary posts?)
There are insurance articles here that are clearly geared towards politics intentionally, and there are those here who clearly turn non political posts into political ones. I’m not sure Agent is saying you and Ron are the paid trolls, but he is triggered for a reason. This site is out of hand, often. Someone could be intentionally getting people riled up here.
Off of that topic, because I think that is a low chance, but you just basically went after his credibility again so I defended him:
Being against Hillary for the wrong reasons, and not voting for her, does not make you educated voters.
When you run around doing the “And you’re going to vote for Trump!?!?” it discourages Trump voters, it ruins elections, and it gives us Obama.
Last election you guys said “and you’re voting Romney?” as character assaults kept on coming, and policy ones you guys actually agreed with Romney. Neither of you were truly for Obama. You were against Romney. Seeing a pattern?
Anyone but Bush! Anyone but McCain! Anyone but Romney! Anyone but Trump!
And each person, since Bush W, has been labeled as being crazier than the last. Bush W was supposedly the worst president in history despite actually being good (and he was, and I can prove it). McCain was as Obama said, some ways worse than Bush. Then Romney was worse than Bush. Now Trump is worse than everyone.
These people were all reasonable, and all better than Obama and Hillary.
It isn’t enough to “claim” you won’t vote Hillary. You need to be active on the truth of conservatism, and need to stop assaulting it while defending liberalism. Until then, agent and myself will blame you for Hillary and Obama, rightly so.
Apparently, you stay Confused 24/7. Paid liberal bloggers will attack like you do all the time against any Conservative like me, Bob, DePolar. It is all negative all the time. No pro Hillary posts because she is the worst of all time and has nothing positive to promote. By the way, it was DePolar that provided the links you love so much on how bloggers are paid to offset all the negatives on Hilliary. Too bad you didn’t read it and just launched into another tirade.
Hi guy who questions other people’s reading comprehension!
You just wrote “Too bad you didn’t read [the link proving Hillary pays people to post online] it and just launched into another tirade.”
Did you even bother to read the FIRST WORD I posted in my reply?
fact: Hillary Clinton pays trolls to comment positively on her behalf
I called it a fact, not a theory. Just like you claiming for months I voted for Obama twice (fact: I voted for him 0 times) and that you kept claiming I love Obamacare (fact: i’ve called it a super-duper failure), I fully expect you to continue to post how I doubt the veracity of that fact.
You know, it sounds like you’re a paid conservative blogger who attacks like you do all the time against any non-conservative poster. It’s all negative all the time with you, even when I say I agree. Case in point….
Do you agree the ~95 million unemployed people over 16 statistic you quoted above is really bad for our country, and unemployment is really high in the US, and it’s a problem, but that the number is slightly inflated because it counts those who have retired from the workforce (and who never intended to seek further employment even if the economy was excellent) as unemployed?
DePolar, interesting article. I have said that IJ was very close to being taken over by the liberal element. IJs tends to let the nasty lefty posters get away with far too much. It really is shameful. I have warned them about this on several occasions, but management is tone deaf apparently.
I am voting for Trump, if only to repeal Obamacare.
The democrats had no kahonies to listen to WE THE PEOPLE when we were saying that Obamacare would not work. Now, we hear them whining and blaming republicans….
Yeah; I could never understand the argument that all these problems with healthcare insurance is the Republicans fault. It must be the Dems logic that since the Republicans weren’t invited to the CLOSED DOOR meetings among the Dems that the Republicans are to blame for not stopping ACA before it was passed…
… before Nanny Nancy told us we’d have to pass it….
… to find out what’s in it!
Yes, it’s because of those $&^*# Republicans who weren’t able to read the minds of the architects of ACA, such as Jonathan Gruber and maybe Valerie Jarrett, that we are now suffering with the secret provisions of ACA that are gradually being revealed.
I read most of the posts in this comments section, and what I learned is:
Liberals can only defend the Affordable Care Act by claiming the Republicans don’t have a plan to replace it, and the Republicans are responsible for its’ failure because they objected to it AFTER it was passed and implemented.
Many Liberals’ posts are hidden due to low ratings.
Many Conservatives’ and Moderates’ posts are highly rated.
After reading 140+ posts, I’m still in the same position, knowledge-wise, from which I started.
I have been an advocate of the single payer healthcare model. ACA is not that but was – I believe – intended to get more Americans health care coverage.
Clearly, ACA has its problems and I recognize most of you are opposed to it. What I’d truly like to learn is what you would propose to replace ACA??
I don’t think that simply rewinding to 20 years ago is a viable solution. The health care system we had prevented those with pre-existing conditions from getting viable coverage and left many people (millions) with no coverage at all.
The data I’ve seen (admittedly not verified for accuracy or completeness) suggests that simply making it harder to bring medical malpractice suits – or even giving medical personnel complete immunity – would not make cost of care affordable for most.
So what is a solution that gets everyone who wants it good (not necessarily “the best,” but 1st world quality) medical care and perscription drugs in a way that is affordable?
I truly want to understand the position of those of you opposed to ACA (or single payer) and appreciate your thoughtful response.
I agree with you. Since i have been debating the merits of the single payer model for years, I am well versed in the opponents’ positions.
1. Tort reform, which I actually agree. However, I have seen studies that indicate the savings would be less than 2%.
2. Increasing competition by allowing companies to sell across state lines. Prob;em is that regulation goes from the states to the federal government since it would be considered interstate commerce. I have not seen any studies that indicate what savings this may lead to.
3. Provide tax credits (subsidies) for premiums.
4. Charge younger insureds less and older insureds more.
5. Move high risk insureds to unaffordable state pools. Of course they will say the government would provide subsidies for them.
What are the 5 psychological steps in the confrontation of death. And, of course, it is always the American people’s fault – blame the victim.
Poor Mr. Obama – gotta blame someone other than himself and Reed/Pelosi for this crappy piece of legislation.
This was a horrible piece to waste my time.
Why would anyone listen to Obama at this point regarding healthcare? It was a well thought out plan. They didn’t think about adverse selection or that young people wouldn’t join. He didn’t think about the website that crashed. Now he wants people/businesses to listen to him on how to fix the future? The businesses are doing what they need to do to survive.
What happens to a busineses CEO who doesn’t do what’s best for the company: the CEO gets dragged out in front of democrat Lizzy Warren and gets reprimanded big time.
Everything is someone else’s fault.
The original plan was flawed intentionally from the beginning to force a single payer plan which is coming from the Govt.
He never wanted private enterprise involved, but had to go through this step. All large financial changes occurred AFTER his re-election because he knew it would fail. He wants Govt to provide healthcare.
Problem is, this will likely involve another payroll tax which will kill the employee.
As well, how can $11.1 million customers needing health insurance FORCE change upon the other 310 million???
Why not provide a govt plan for those who NEED healthcare and can’t obtain? We could have skipped this entire joke.
As having formerly worked at a state insurance department, I can tell you that there is and was in every state, a government plan for those that needed health insurance, but they were unaffordable. Obamacare, was and is, the first and only attempt to make it more affordable, which despite what people think, has actually worked as intended. But, until the hospital and doctor side are addressed, it can’t be fully fixed.
So you are familiar with “Adverse selection” and the “law of large numbers”… These issues were more than just a “Criticism” in 2009
It was MATH. This law is Emotionally created for an industry that relies on actuarial math. Now the Free money to the Insurance companies is gone and so are they. Sadly we have less choice and Competition in just a few short years following the Free money to pay for the losses.
That free money was paid for with a 30 year loan program that citizens of this USA now owe to Bond holders.
When they say “Its for the Children” often times its too the children…
Need I remind you that this legislation was passed “without a single Republican vote!” Now he blames the Republicans for not helping? This law was sold on false narratives and was very poorly written; in fact almost guaranteed to fail! You can gut the primary operating structure from the insurance industry and expect it to preform. We have gone from a competitive free market to variably no market. Here in MN we are looking at 50-65% rate increases and the commerce department had to approve them or the remaining 3 markets would have pulled out as well, they are all bleeding red ink.
There have been several pieces of legislation from the other side over the past 3-4 years, but the Democrats in the senate wouldn’t even hear the bill…However there is plenty of blame to go around the entire system. If you want lower cost and better outcome, you need to empower the consumer! They will drive performance and price.
My position all along has been to help the pre x folks out and leave the rest alone. My opposition to this has always been that OBama Care did not address the underlying issues – factors that forced the higher expenses on the Doc & Hospital side.
Cant fix everything over night and that is what was attempted.
A program that is unaffordable is useless. Now people are facing huge deductibles, co-pays, and premium increases. Paying doctors and hospitals less for services without tort reform will only result in fewer doctors and hospitals. Obamacare is a miserable failure and should be repealed.
Obama says, “he healthcare plan has real problems.” It had real problems before it was passed. Now the liar wants to blame it on politicians. Remember, “If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor, if you like your health plan you can keep your health plan?”
It was a very poorly thought out plan. Illegally passed and was doomed from the beginning.
If Congress had done their jobs this past year, a lot of things would have gotten done. Don’t ignore the fact they sat on their haunches most of the year and disappointed a lot of Americans. Where there is an incumbent running – vote against them and maybe we can get the country working again….and I’m sorry but Donald Trump scares the heck out of a lot of people too.
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I doubt it Celtica. My best guess is they are waiting for the rate hikes to hit the mail boxes.
“Minnesota’s commerce commissioner, Mike Rothman, said on Friday that he would allow insurers selling individual plans in the state to raise their prices by at least 50 percent next year after the near “collapse” of its market for individual coverage.”
Who in Min is not going to vote for Repeal and replace?
It speaks for itself.
BTW, States had Pre X Pools set up. So, no. oBama Care did not help them out as it was available.
FFA, the Progressive Socialists passed this piece of trash and forced it down the throat of Americans. They don’t own up to their huge mistakes and instead now call for the Republicans to fix it or call for single payer which is what they wanted to start with. Every Democrat that thought this was a good thing should be booted out of office to join the ones already booted out in the mid terms or the General. Even today, Hilliary’s husband said Obamacare was bad and ill conceived.
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Methinks that like most democrats, David doesn’t like the truth, especially when the truth is not very flattering and is directed at the people he voted for and support today.
Also, I’d like to suggest that you be a little more mature and stop the bedwetting, it makes you sound like a patsy, which you might very well be.
“The distortions in your post as to regarding who has been called to fix it or what Hillary’s husband stated eliminates any credibility, you might have in your point. ”
Context needed, or it is in fact you who are eliminating any point you are making. He doesn’t have to talk how you want. He’s passionately talking about a bad plan which is bad. It doesn’t become a good plan because he mentions that even Hillary didn’t like it. Remember how the democrats said “even republicans wanted a mandate!”. It’s the same deal. Were democrats ruining their credibility by saying that? For them it works, and for republicans it becomes a condemn-able action. This is a means to basically destroy a person’s words based on their phrasing. It is not appropriate.
“Also, I’d like to suggest that you be a little more mature and stop the name-calling because it makes you actually sound like a deplorable human being, which I don’t believe you probably are.”
Same thing as above, destroying someone based on the words they use. What the poster above said was mild at best. He called democrats socialists and called the plan a piece of trash. Ooooo!! Now he better watch it and start believing what you want, or he might be a deplorable human being!
These tactics are also out of line. Insults mixed into comments are fine. Insults mixed into comments designed to make someone’s credibility, are not. You still have to address someone’s argument, not their character as the means to your argument. A typical insult is not meant to make an argument, it’s meant to inform someone they are a jerk, or to make a consequence for acting like an idiot. Ridicule as much as you as a youngin’ may hate it, causes just as much growth when needed as positive commentary. The only difference is if you always hear the positive, you never question yourself.
We will see in November who the American People want to fix it or to Repeal and Replace it. Another 4 years of the status quo is not acceptable.
FFA, I saw a bit of Megyn Kelley last night and she was interviewing the now infamous Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of Dead Fish, the wonderful mayor of Chicago, the main architect of Obamacare and true to his Progressive Socialist roots, he was blaming Republicans for the demise of this so called law. He also said that the big rate increases were a one time thing and only in a few parts of the country. I laughed and switched the channel since I was tire of it in a few minutes.
EE is doing the typical Commie thing; i.e. repeating a lie many times, assuming the liberal following lemmings will eventually believe it, despite those lies being refuted by facts and common sense.
FFA, according to this article dated 9.1.16 from the Twin Cities:
“…These new proposed rates would affect only people who buy individual insurance plans. About 300,000 Minnesotans are in that category, of whom 70,000 buy their plan through the state-run MNsure exchange and 230,000 directly from insurers. People who get health insurance from providers or from government programs such as Medicare, Medical Assistance or MinnesotaCare won’t be directly affected. ..”
http://www.twincities.com/2016/09/01/insurers-ask-to-raise-minnesota-premiums-by-average-of-above-50-percent/
So in answer to your question, there are approximately 5.5 million people in Minnesota – so it would appear to impact about 5% of the healthcare policyholders. While this is not good for them, it really doesn’t call for a state wide vote to repeal the whole thing.
Also, Trump’s surrogate in Minnesota is calling for a total recall — that would include pre-existing conditions.
Who would be worse off? Nearly everyone, not just the 5%
Celtica, its election time. Do you think Trumps team will go into this detail or just hammer the 50%+ hike?
A total recall would mean reinstating the State Pool and help them folks out instead of screwing everyone.
FFA, no chance Trump will go into any detail — other than “something terrific” — because he cannot stick to a position for any period of time as it all depends on his audience at the moment.
According to this Trump Tweet: he will repeal the whole thing — which means pre-existing conditions will go with it.
http://myinforms.com/en-us/a/24866311-trump-clarifies-that-he-supports-repealing-obamacare-mandate/
Celtica, Bits and pieces have been made public. For instance, allowing people that pay their own individual premiums get to deduct it. All Hillary does is talk about increasing taxes.
What do low info voters hear? Tax Break. Tax Hike.
Everyone in the Insurance Biz knows the best course of action is to Repeal and Replace. Yes, even you and Cap know that when you take off your emotions hat and put on your biz hat.
FFA,
Everyone in the insurance business also knows that the free market does not have an affordable solution for the high risk insureds. Most of those people cannot afford actuarial sound health insurance premiums. If you advocate for subsidies for the high risk, why not just include them in the pool of all insureds? We are subsidizing them either way, by paying higher premiums or higher taxes.
If we are deducting health care premiums, which reduces revenue for the government, is that not the same as having the government pay for a portion of our health care insurance? Why not just have them do the whole job? Then every citizen would be covered, we would have less government administered healthcare (Medicare, Medicaid and VA), provide complete freedom to choose from whom you receive health care without networks, and we could reduce costs.
Because Ron, the govt will not get it right.
State Pools would fall to the states responsibility – a Local Solution because not all fit in the same box. Put it on the hands of Counties and states. The local market experts – not some jack ass sitting in DC.
FFA,
The government has proven to be able to collect taxes and pay private contractors, correct? That is all I am asking for them to do with health insurance. Collect taxes and pay the premiums.
Will the state pools charge actuarial sound rates or rely on subsidies from the government (taxpayers)?
Celtica: “…..because he cannot stick to a position for any period of time as it all depends on his audience at the moment.” And that would make Trump different from Hillary……how exactly? Right, Celtica ! No difference at all ! Great answer.
Jax Agent,
Donald Trump is supposed to be the honest, unpolitician. That is the difference.
@Ron; the free market DOES have an affordable solution. The details of the plans in the works are not going to be revealed now so that the media can attack them with lies and distortions, as you and your liberal friends hope to do.
Time will reveal the solution that evaded the Harvard Elitists with arrogant attitudes. They will be mocked after the solution corrects almost all of the problems that exist today. But, again, it will take time to implement.
DePolarBearables,
Anyone who has a basic knowledge of the insurance mechanism and pricing KNOWS that there cannot be an affordable, free market solution to health insurance, period. The free market has had decades to accomplish this feat, to no avail.
No one has ever explained why the Republicans never out their plan in writing, in the form of a bill, with any of there hopeless attempts to repeal the PPACA.
You cannot criticize Nancy Pelosi for saying, “We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it”, then say, “we have to vote for the Republicans to see what is in their plan”. That is called hypocrisy.
And you call Democrats and Liberals lemmings.
The free market hasn’t been as free as it will be under a TrumPresidency and Republican controlled Congress.
With that, the problems CAN be solved.
Ron; you are making statements about something you know little about. And you have NO knowledge about the (proprietary?) plan that will be revealed after Trump wins.
The reasons the free market didn’t solve the affordability problem is that it didn’t reach a crisis level until Democrats said it did. Of course, that is only their opinion, intended to be used to brainwash the public into agreeing with more government control. Now that the crisis has evolved into one more damaging, as a result of the ACA, intelligent insurance pros came up with several solutions to those problems. Further, chief execs of health insurers don’t want their salaries reduced by reducing the claim costs and expenses in premiums, so THEY had no incentive to improve (not fix) the affordability of health insurance.
Highly risky health insurance risks that were undesirable were previously handled by pools, which seemed to be working as intended. The ACA acted to dismantle some or all of those pools in favor of government subsidies that are miserable failures.
Lefties pointing to US citizens’ rights of “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness” does NOT give anyone the right to medical care because “Immortality” isn’t identical to “Life”.
DePolarBearables,
Nobody, including you, knows what their plans are because they will not let anyone know. How can you, in good conscience, vote for someone without knowing what they intend to do if elected? That is the definition of being a political lemming. They say, “trust us”, and you fall for it.
If releasing of the Republican health insurance plan is contingent on Donald Trump winning, I guess we will never know.
What happens if Donald Trump does not win, but the Republicans gain more seats in Congress. Will they at least bring forth a replacement bill just to prove they actually have a plan?
You said, “The reasons the free market didn’t solve the affordability problem is that it didn’t reach a crisis level until Democrats said it did.”
So, the fact that health care expenses have been the number one cause of bankruptcies for decades is not enough of a crisis for the free market or Republicans to respond? Nice.
“If releasing of the Republican health insurance plan is contingent on Donald Trump winning, I guess we will never know.”
This has to do with how the 3 branches work. If a democrat vetoes and otherwise publicly destroys a republican replacement, it is not the fault of republicans.
“What happens if Donald Trump does not win, but the Republicans gain more seats in Congress. Will they at least bring forth a replacement bill just to prove they actually have a plan? ”
Yes. They have been for some time. However, you have constantly said when they try to pass bills that have no chance of going through, it wastes time and that is bad.
Now you have flipped the other way, and want them to bring forth plans even when they have no chance of passing?
Ron, this delusional flip flopping is out of hand with you.
Do you or do you not remember saying what I’m mentioning here? I’ve already given the 2016 most recent republican healthcare alternative.
They will as always put forth plans.
@Ron; No, the number one reason for personal bankruptcy isn’t health care expenses. It may be LACK of health insurance to cover those expenses, and low NET DISPOSABLE incomes due to high taxes. Many people have NOT gone bankrupt because they did the responsible thing and bought health insurance. Also, see ‘Medicaid’.
Bob,
When I said, “If releasing of the Republican health insurance plan is contingent on Donald Trump winning, I guess we will never know.”, it was in response to DePolarBearables statement, “And you have NO knowledge about the (proprietary?) plan that will be revealed after Trump wins.”
It was not in reference to the passing of the Republicans’ plan, just laying out exactly what it will include.
Yous aid, “Yes. They have been for some time. However, you have constantly said when they try to pass bills that have no chance of going through, it wastes time and that is bad.
Now you have flipped the other way, and want them to bring forth plans even when they have no chance of passing?
Ron, this delusional flip flopping is out of hand with you.”
I have not flipped at all. My position has been and continues to be, why can the Republicans not put their replacement in any one of the repeal bills that also had zero chance of passing? My issue with their repeal efforts was that it was solely, 100% political posturing, not governing. If you are going to waste our time, at least provide a solution, do not just whine.
I read the alternative bill you cited, did you? It is not a replacement, only the elimination of the mandates within the PPACA. Is that the grand Republican plan? If that is all they have, they are more useless than I had originally thought.
@Ron; your Oct 7 post stating “anyone in the insurance industry knows there cannot be a solution to the affordability problem…” (paraphrased) shows your ignorance.
Other lines of insurance faced affordability problems and solved them.
The distinction in HI is the Dictatorial control the Communist Dems want to exert over 1/6th of the US Economy. They AVOIDED the potential solutions in order to control your HI and health care decisions and robbed more of your Freedom in the process. They are Communists hiding under the less-despised veil of ‘Democrats’.
Craziest thing in the world! Bill Clinton
If your a Womanizer like he is, he is something to be admired. All that cheating and still talked his wife into not kicking his cheating ass to the curb. He could give seminars. Charge his $250,000 per hour rate…
FFA — so could Trump for that matter — excepts his cheating ass kicks his spouses to the curb and brags how much he don’t have to pay them — and admire sharia law on top of it. Can’t make this stuff up.
FFA, Hilliary caught him many times, but her political ambitions outweighed the cheating factor. In fact, she went after and ruined all the women who had contact with him. She has a lot of nerve saying Trump treats women badly. Her husband was the worst serial cheater of all former Presidents combined. Of course one look at her might justify some of the wayward eyes. Did you notice her Botox eye treatments prior to the first debate? She must have borrowed Pelosi’s Botox doctor.
Deplorables — Hillary has spent her life in public AND political service which is not to be confused with each other. Running for senate is political, running for president is political. Serving as First Lady and the Secretary of State is not.
So — to state that she stayed with him – and he with her — for political purposes is nonsense. I don’t know why they stayed together — and neither you. They appear to have a real affection for each other.
Unlike Trump and his 3 wives, unlike Guilani and his 3 wives and unlike Gingrich and his 3 wives. They keep trading in for younger versions after cheating on spouses 1 and 2. Will their be a 4th….yes, the trend is there. Probably a 5th too.
As for Hillary going after the women who slept with her husband, damn straight, she ought to go after them. They knew he was married. If you are talking about rape, then why have no rape charges ever been filed? Produce the evidence.
BTW, the press is waiting for the court to unseal Trump’s first divorce in which his wife charged him with rape. Guess you cannot rape your own wife. Nice.
And Trump lusts after his own daughters. Sicko.
The GOP does have plans to replace obamacare, They tried a number of times to get a vote on them when Harry reid was in charge, and he shot them down every time. He would not even let a vote be taken on them. The media always say that the republicans are the obstructionists, but the truth is that it is the democrats the hold things up all the time.
cm sense,
Please cite the name and number of the bill the Republicans have put forth in Congress that actually has their replacement. All they have done, as far as the bills I have seen, is try to repeal a law that had 0% chance of being repealed.
Cite & name your sources. That should put an end to anyone else posting on this message board….not. Ron, if you aren’t careful, I’ll have Bob cite, name sources and empty the library of congress in your lap in the form of …..12 or 15 consecutive posts….38,262 words in total – all properly cited for your researching pleasure.
Jax Agent,
This is important. One cannot say, “The GOP does have plans to replace obamacare, They tried a number of times to get a vote on them when Harry Reid was in charge, and he shot them down every time. He would not even let a vote be taken on them.”, without proof. This is implying that the Republicans actually put their plans to paper in the form of a bill.
As long as Bob’s post includes at least one bill from Congress that had a replacement of the PPACA, I will take it. Unfortunately, he has failed in this every time I have asked.
@Ron; the Republicans will have to pass it for YOU to see what’s in it. :)
DePolarBearables,
They have had control of Congress for over a year and a half. Since they have had their own plan since 2008, what is taking so long?
When will you open your eyes and see they are just playing you for your vote. They have no interest in governing or you.
@Ron; when will YOU face the FACTS that ACA is a failure and there are several ways to fix affordability of insurance, as was done in other lines of insurance?
Yogi – how can you sincerely tell Ron he hasn’t faced the facts that the ACA is a failure when (1) he’s admitted that multiple times and (2) he’s taken the time — dozens of times now — to lay out his solution for you, bob, Agent, and so many others? Do you just not remember those posts???
Oh, yeah; Republicans controlling Congress didn’t previously bother introducing as a new proposed bill their soon to be revealed alternative to ACA because Obama would immediately veto it.
Ok, no you are mixing events. I gave you CBO rated plans, and the fact that they didn’t get past congress you blame on republicans. There are proposed bills. Then you switched back to when they had control of the senate and congress, and I mentioned they passed medicare part D, and gave you a link that showed every healthcare fix they tried. You keep on going from “well yeah, that’s true but they didn’t do anything during Bush!” to “show me the plans you never showed me!” and then back when I show the plans to “well yeah, they didn’t pass anything during Bush!” We’ve had this argument countless times and you have a selective memory.
What you are doing is ignoring links you don’t like.
I don’t have time to educate you any longer. It’s getting old. See my other posts regarding the lists of old plans attempted to be passed in the past.
Here is the CBO plan again which democrats blocked.
http://www.speaker.gov/press-release/cbo-confirms-gop-plan-will-lower-health-care-premiums-lower-deficit-without-tax-hikes
Ron,
You keep saying there were no bills proposed. Not all bills get to the floor, and that would not be the fault of the side who proposed it, but rather the one who blocked it, or the media who reported it as a bad plan before it was voted on and disallowed it to go any further. This is how the one I just posted was stopped. They said it wouldn’t cover as many insureds, BY CHOICE.
It offered enough credits, enough similar to Obamacare for them to purchase the insurance, the only reason the number of insureds would be low would be if those people offered help did not accept the help and CHOSE to not be insured. So instead of reduce the premium by about 21% compared to Obamacare, the media instead said that people were too stupid to make up their minds about insurance and therefore a plan that FORCED more people to have insurance with a 20% higher cost was better.
Here are more plans, and recent ones. They keep on presenting these, and you say there are NONE. That is your issue. NONE??? What the heck Ron??????
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/5284/text
I have given you this CBO rated plan in the past. I’ll assume that since you said I failed, you forgot about this plan or think it doesn’t count for some reason (whereas I have mentioned it repeatedly you are surely actually misleading people on purpose, that’s what I should assume but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt which I shouldn’t) I’m going to ask right now, why does that proposed plan not count?
How about the new plan proposed this year? It probably will go no where as well. Why does that plan not count?
“As long as Bob’s post includes at least one bill from Congress that had a replacement of the PPACA, I will take it. Unfortunately, he has failed in this every time I have asked.”
So you have two bills. Now take it.
You keep repeating this lie that I have failed “every” time. You also make this mistake to agent saying republicans have presented “no” options.
Is this selective memory, or are you repeating the tactics of your liberals in media? Repeat a lie enough and if the person doesn’t defend themselves it becomes true? And if that person does defend themselves then you label their personality and temperament?
Sound a bit like the current election with Hillary much?
These tactics are not new Ron. You are either very forgetful or extremely dishonest and will employ any tactic possible to push your agenda.
DePolarBearables,
You said, “Oh, yeah; Republicans controlling Congress didn’t previously bother introducing as a new proposed bill their soon to be revealed alternative to ACA because Obama would immediately veto it.”
Then why so many bills to repeal the PPACA?
@Ron; to PROVIDE PROOF to the American public that Obama wants to veto anything that stands in the way of robbing more freedom from its citizens. In the case of vetoing repeals of ACA, they show their willingness to continue a failed program in order to control the public that depends on it instead of more affordable, market driven solutions. Examples of the latter are repeal of one-state licensing of HI Cos., and implementation of tax credits for Health Savings Accounts with NO CANCELLATION provisions and the right to bind despite existing health problems.
Communism has failed each and every time it’s been tried Barry. You weren’t taught that after you registered as a foreign student?
Obamacare has been a disaster from day one just like obama has been. There was no problem before obamacare. It was all made up. If you wanted to get insurance before obama care, all you had to do is shop around and get the policy that would fit your needs. I had one for 7 years that way. If I had to have my own 1 more year, it would have been canceled on me and I would have had to go to the obamacare crap for triple the price and less coverage. So, no it is not a good system at all.
Didnt the democrat Super majority pass it despite Republicans Concerns.
Now its the GOP fault? Sorry but that Political well was poisoned the day it passed. Look at the Signing event Video “We made History said the Democrats and their leaders Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Reid, Top 4 Democrats in 2009. Hope the 2 boxes of Commemorative pens are framed on all their walls.
It was a historic day but maybe not for the reasons they wanted it to be.
Note to Future legislators… If you go it alone it better not effect to many of those you snub. They will self level the Political waters in the USA Triad of Government.
Look at the Boxes of Pens… must be 24??? LOL
http://www.healthcarecounts.org/blog/2016/3/23/affordable-care
Where is my $2500? Obama knew his program that produces huge losses for insurance companies would self-destruct and then Democrats could come to the rescue with true socialized medicine run by the government as he desired in the first place. Thank goodness for Democrats. They will save us again from their own self-inflicted failures and have the audacity to take credit for it. And one wonders why there is such lack of confidence in our elected leaders??
Chuck, the wrong leaders were elected for the past 2 terms. Their ideas, lies, distortions have painted themselves into a corner. You think Obama has been bad for the country? Hilliary is Obama on steroids on every issue imaginable.
Yeah, let’s elect Trump so that you can see what a truly pathetic individual can do to really wreck the economy while benefitting personally.
He is the American counterpart to the Filipino President Rodrigo Duterte.
Fingre on the tweet button at 3 a.m. — or finger on the nuclear bombs? Hmmmm, guess we will find out soon.
How can Trump wreck an economy that has already been wrecked by the worst President in a century? I rather like him lowering taxes on everyone, bringing back the $3-4 Trillion from offshore, getting rid of bad trade deals, getting rid of NAFTA and not making the Trans Pacific trade deal that Hilliary thought was “golden” and of course getting rid of the worst legislation ever passed by Congress. Progressive Socialists are the worst.
Trump will be blamed for anything that doesn’t go perfectly when he is POTUS.
The blame Bush train stops here and now.
DePolarBearables,
And you guys do not blame President Obama for anything that has not gone well in the past 7+ years?
Hypocrite!!
Yes, and he deserves every bit of blame for the abject failures he initiated!
DePolarBearables,
So, are you saying it is OK to blame whoever is the current president for anything that does not go well at that time? Or do you flip-flop based on their political affiliation?
I said what I said. Re-read it and stop trying to put words in my jaws.
DePolarBearables,
I did not put words into your jaws, I asked you questions. Is simple grammar too much for you?
“DePolarBearables,
And you guys do not blame President Obama for anything that has not gone well in the past 7+ years?
Hypocrite!!”
Parity of blame is not mandated by default. Research as to who to blame is.
He’s a hypocrite for blaming Obama for what Obama has done in office because he hasn’t yet blamed Trump, and will consider if Trump is actually at fault…
You are such a child.
Bob,
No. He is a hypocrite for saying that a President Trump would be blamed for anything that doesn’t go perfectly well.
Now that we know Donald Trump has a very, very, very small chance of winning, the point is moot.
@Ron; please provide PROOF that Trump has a very, very, very small chance of winning.
I would like to see which polls you are relying on, and their underlying assumptions about voter mix by party, demo, and tendency to vote in national elections.
Ready, … steady, … GO!
DePolarBearables,
You missed a significant portion of my post. I stated, “Anyone who has a basic knowledge of the insurance mechanism and pricing KNOWS that there cannot be an affordable, FREE MARKET solution to health insurance, period.”
If you need to alter my words and incorrectly paraphrase what I said, you lose.
How would the free market offer an actuarial sound, affordable premium to someone with a chronic, pre-existing condition?
DePolarBearables,
First, let me apologize. I should have begun with, “In my opinion…”
Second, even though Donald Trump won the debate on Sunday, I believe, in my opinion, he swayed very few, undecided voters. Since he has been consistently trailing Hillary Clinton the polls, he needs to do more than just shore up his base. Unfortunately, that is all he accomplished on Sunday.
Third, here you go…
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-idUSKCN12A1VK
@Ron; the FREE MARKET fixed many other problems in several other lines of insurance.
But, you are FREE to voice your OPINION on their ability to do so in the area of Health Insurance.
I await the election, and the ACTUAL voter turnout by demo group, including the unemployed no longer counted in the U3 stats, etc. who are angry enough to vote, and who will invalidate the projected turnout percentage used in Reuters, CNN, NBC, etc. polls, the latter group of which are based on HISTORIC turnouts under different economic and social scenarios of past years and decades.
After the election, we can discuss the proposals for fixing the HI and healthcare problems with a specific pathway based on control of Congress and The White House.
Until then, share your OPINION as often as you like. No one will bet any heavy sum of money on it, unless it is someone else’s money; e.g. US citizen’s tax receipts.
DePolarBearables,
Fair enough. You are obviously too stubborn to be convinced that Republicans either, a.) have absolutely no interest in solving our health care/insurance problems, or b.) know that their ideas will not solve our health care/insurance problems.
How much would you be willing to bet that Donald Trump wins? I would be willing to wager 10X that amount that he loses.
Chuck. I believe they took every ones $2500 and put it in a plane and flew it to the top sponsor nation of terrorism.
I sometimes wish that the US Electoral College had said eight years ago “If you like your President… “
DePolar, it is interesting that Progressive Socialists passing terrible legislation don’t own up to their disasters which start at the top. Then, they blame the opposing party who didn’t vote their way. Pelosi said they had to pass it to see what was in it and virtually no one read what was in it before voting for it. Totally partisan and totally wrong and the country is feeling the full effect of it now. Even Slick Willy said it was a disaster just yesterday. Hmm!
The problem with ObamaCare is ObamCarelessness.
Yes, of course, it’s the Republican’s fault because everything that Obama touches is good, natural and good for you. So it couldn’t possible be because the ACA was doomed to fail before it ever got off the ground. When the socialists passed (shoved this bill down America’s throat) this bill, most of them hadn’t read a word of it and unless they had also Federalized all the health insurance carriers it didn’t have a snow ball’s chance in hell of working. And, it isn’t/didn’t/ain’t. Socialized medicine like almost all other socialist programs, failed as soon as the private sector could measure what was happening to their loss results. One of two things had to happen: either prices go up, or, benefits and services go down……like falling off of a cliff. The ACA was doomed because the idiots that conceived this disaster didn’t have the foresight or courage to face the fact that adverse selection was going to rule the day.
ACA is a bust and the only fault lies with the democrats who wouldn’t listen to reason but instead took advantage of their majority and screwed the American people, but they don’t care because most of their voting base is far to stupid to understand any of that and blaming the Republicans is much easier to do and ‘understand’. LOL. Stupid democrats following their savior……right out of office.
Pay a small penalty in your income tax filing or pay hyuuuge insurance premiums made so by adverse selection against the CO-OPs and insurers.
Not much choice there, if you have common sense.
Doomed to failure by design. Nacny shouldn’t have said what she said, which will live forever in infamy in video and audio recordings and political comment boards.
Depolar, a friend sent me the following by email and highlights what Progressives think and do.
I used to think I was just a regular guy, but I was born white, which now, whether I like it or not makes me a racist.
I am a fiscal and moral conservative, which by today’s standards, makes me a fascist.
I am heterosexual, which according to gay folks, now makes me a homophobe.
I am mostly non-union, which makes me a traitor to the working class and an ally to big business.
I am a Christian, which now labels me as an infidel.
I believe in the 2nd Amendment, which now makes me a member of the vast gun lobby.
I think and I reason, therefore I doubt that the main stream media tells me, must make me a reactionary.
I am proud of my heritage and our inclusive American Culture, which makes me a xenophobe.
I value my safety and that of my family and I appreciate the Police and the legal system which makes me a right-wing extremist.
I believe in hard work, fair play, and fair compensation according to each individuals merits which makes me an anti-socialist.
I believe in the defense and protection of the Homeland for and by all citizens and served in the Armed Forces, which now makes me a right wing militant.
Funny … its all just taken place over the last 8 years. As if all this nonsense wasn’t enough to deal with… I’m not sure which restroom to use. Progressive Socialism is a disease with no apparent cure.
Well, okay, now I know. If that is how a Progressive thinks and acts, I’m obviously NOT a Progressive. It’s either that, or your friend’s email couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s kind of like when Rush, the pill popper, tells his audience how an entire group of people think. Broad brush much there, Pillbury Doughboy? Limbaugh, what a liar!
And, yes, I put this out there because Agent loves to call me Progressive all the time. Even though I’ve told him 100 times I’m registered Indie. I even voted for some local R’s here in my home state of Iowa. Bill Northey to name one.
voter registration doesn’t bind anyone to a particular political philosophy or group of candidates.
Jax, good post. If you are in Jacksonville, Fl, I wish you well and hope it doesn’t get too bad from Matthew.
By the way, we have been calling Progressive Democrats “Lemmings” for years because they were jumping into the pit following Obama and his merry minions.
Let’ hope Hillary doesn’t get elected and implement Hillacatastrophe Coverage… free property insurance if you aren’t insured and a hurricane or other natural catastrophe hits your town.
DePolarBearables,
Hillary Clinton will be the next president because the Republicans put forth another candidate who is even worse. Why can your party not give us someone reasonable?
I notice president Obama’s approval rating is now up to 55%. I cannot help but wonder how much of that is due to the 2 worst candidates that have ever been put forth.
BHO approval rating is artificially bolstered by the media, the pollers, and the illegal immigrants voting in he polls.
DePolarBearables,
If this is a fact, please provide your proof and cite source. If it is your opinion, please state that in your post.
I noticed that you avoided answering my question, “Why can your party not give us someone reasonable?”
He doesn’t have to state his opinion is an opinion, and with regards to proving that polls and the media eschew toward Obama, those will always be common sense opinions.
As for the Illegal immigrants, that one is common sense but you know darn well legal immigrants already lean to Obama, what makes you think that illegal ones wouldn’t?
Ultimately I think why you don’t like Agent is the same basic thing that makes you not like republicans.
You don’t like that he’s pissed off, or how he talks.
Focus on the concepts, not how someone speaks. That is really rather elitist, and it certainly is not progressive.
20 M + Illegal Immigrants in the USA and no one taking polls check each polled person’s citizenship status when they make their calls. Hence, participation in favorability polls by those who are getting free stuff despite not being citizens.
QED
I still don’t see how that PROVES illegal immigrants are influencing those polls. If nobody is checking citizenship status, how can you KNOW those folks are (or are not) included in the polling?
You could theoretically say Buddhists are influencing polling too because they live in America and nobody is asking people their religion when taking the poll.
Neither stance PROVES anything. It’s just unsubstantiated conjecture.
No one can PROVE anything to a liberal that he/ she doesn’t WANT to believe.
I’ll believe anything anyone is able to PROVE with facts. I won’t believe things people spout off as truth, have no evidence to support it, and then insult those who ask for the source of said “facts.”
You start by PROVING both Clintons should NOT be thrown in jail for the rest of their lives.
Ready, steady, go!
I don’t think you get how conversation works, Agent.
If you claim a statistic is true and I ask you to support your claim, you have to support it or explain why you can’t.
It doesn’t work like this: If you claim a statistic is true and I ask you to support your claim, you insult me and then I have to prove something off-topic that I never said.
Let’s try again. Can you prove the statistic you posted with any source that could be double-checked and verified?
“still don’t see how that PROVES illegal immigrants are influencing those polls. If nobody is checking citizenship status, how can you KNOW those folks are (or are not) included in the polling?”
Math? Statistics? Random polling should include the 20 million illegals at a ratio equal to their proportion of the population.
…
(many) Polls don’t check for citizenship.
DePolar, polls are a joke and many are left leaning and paid off by Democrats to favor their side.
Agent,
Polls are a joke except for when they support your narrative, right?
bob “Polls don’t check for citizenship.”
therefore nobody can honestly say “this poll is invalid because non-citizens were polled, or they weren’t polled at their proportionate share” because there’s no data to support that claim, right?
100% of those polled COULD be citizens, or 100% COULD be non-citizens, or any percent combination thereof, right? there’s no data to support either contention, right?
I asked agent to support his argument with source data to prove his argument that “BHO approval rating is artificially bolstered by…illegal immigrants voting in he polls” and he can’t.
I approached this using your “acceptable” way of debate, yet Agent insulted me in reply. When you saw this exchange, you defended him. Why? He made up some nonsense and insulted me when I asked him to support it. Why did you defend him?
Like I said, if nobody is checking citizenship status, how can you KNOW those folks are (or are not) included in the polling? You could theoretically say Buddhists are influencing polling too because they live in America and nobody is asking people their religion when taking the poll. Neither stance PROVES anything. It’s just unsubstantiated conjecture.
Confused,
Your level of ignorance is astounding.
“therefore nobody can honestly say “this poll is invalid because non-citizens were polled, or they weren’t polled at their proportionate share” because there’s no data to support that claim, right? ”
Ok, no. Do you use your brain at all? I already explained this. Yes, they can. If we know there are 20 million illegal immigrants, and we know legal immigrants lean toward Obama due to the aspect of immigration, we can assume the demographics will have the same rough percentages if not higher in support of Obama.
Then all you do, is use math. You will when calling run into these people representative of their proportion of the population.
You are trying to find reason to disregard logic and label based on behavior of saying a comment in itself, and I am NOT ok with this! You can’t just run around saying things like this to discredit anyone who doesn’t speak exactly how you demand.
The comment was reasonable. We aren’t going to have paragraphs to explain common speech, which if you have an issue with that you have a problem with common decency!
Stop with the smart butt comments for the love of God!
When we have to have an argument based on a simple comment confused the problem is your behavior. Not Agent’s sytle of speech.
I’m going to sound like a liberal for a moment, and I know you’re the age to KNOW this is a liberal comment and I KNOW you have heard it:
Stop being so up tight about how people talk, ZOMG.
If you’re going to engage in this controlling of behavior, to shadow over facts and discredit people, that is the problem with America.
Grow, the heck, up. Put on your big boy pants, act like an adult.
Ok, let’s end this. I hate it when people debate like this.
I deal in facts. The whole lot of you leftists here talk out of your butt and then you say Agent does. Every time he doesn’t talk how you want you throw your version of a tantrum to shut him down. This is immoral, it is immature, and it is totalitarian in nature. The first thing to go in totalitarian nations is free speech. Everything suddenly has to be worded a certain way. Go watch V for Vendetta, and compare yourself to those who controlled speech in that. Maybe a movie will make you think better, I’m sure you operate in logics like that as it is.
But to solve this, links forthcoming. 71%!!! 71!!!! And we have no reason to believe that 20 million illegal immigrants (6% of the population) at a rate of probably by now 80% considering how much Hispanics don’t like Trump (making now a 4.8% total increase for Obama and or Hillary) isn’t boosting their approval ratings? We don’t know that we are asking illegal immigrants? More like why are we assuming they won’t be represented in the polls. That’s my question. How stupid are you? Why are YOU assuming they won’t be represented in the polls in proportion to their relative proportion of the population? The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that, because by default, math dictates that we MUST include them representative to their portion of the population, which would go along with Deplorables comment. How baby talk do I have to break this down for your mind to understand it?
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/11/07/latino-voters-in-the-2012-election/
I even made a mistake there which made my numbers too low for the influence.
I used his Hispanics as a percentage of the overall population to determine their amount of the total vote. That doesn’t make sense to do.
Hispanics as a percentage of the overall actual votes makes more sense.
Hispanics were 10 percent of all voters in the 2012 election and they voted 71% Obama. This means they swayed the election by 7.1%, and we can assume they will help in the polls by a similar margin for Obama and Hillary.
I have no party. I am a party of one.
DePolar, isn’t it interesting that Progressives have no life experience or common sense, don’t observe what is going on in the world? If we post anything, they always want a link and if we do that, they don’t believe it. Your comment of a liberal not believing anything they don’t want to believe is spot on.
Liberals need links because liberal teachers never provided them the truth when they were in liberal schools.
The current feud about Obama’s popularity rating is based on OPINIONS, yet liberals are asking for ‘proof’. Polls are what polls are, and no one stated the polls EXCLUDE illegal alien immigrants. So, without PROOF that the popularity / approval rating polls are unbiased, I can assume they include people who are dependent on Obama for food stamps, free cell phones, etc.
First, Yogi, the phones didn’t start under President Obama. They started under George W. Who, was a candidate everyone wanted to have a beer with. The current Republican candidate is one some want to grab a (eh-hem) with. Who also told Howard Stern it was okay to call his daughter a piece of a_ _. Stay classy, Drumpf!
Wait until the ACA premium hikes hit the fan in November, and take Obama’s favorability ratings then.
Bob, I know you have made an attempt to play nice with Confused so he won’t rant at you so much. How many links have you provided to him on just Healthcare, but also on other subjects? Has he believed you even once or has he continued to argue for arguments sake? That is why I don’t provide links to him or the now infamous UW. Also, Ron has a bad habit of saying provide the links to support your position. He also discounts your links every single time. Actu seems to be the new actor in swearing on this site. He has been reported.
I’m not sure if he has said I’m right on anything. Sometimes people don’t do that at the time of the conversation yet they change their positions over time and don’t even know what the catalyst was. I may have an impact, I’m not sure.
In terms of me with him, I gave him the benefit of the doubt on the gun issue a while back if you recall and some others here said I probably should not do that.
Yet I’m sure I’m still considered the conservative Anti-Christ to many liberals here. I really don’t see how they consider I’m the most extreme conservative.
By plans alone, Trump is better than Hillary. Only through the labels you throw at him is he worse.
McCain was better than Obama. Romney was better than Obama. You moderates are refusing to let republicans win. Everything they do you assign blame. When they try to fix things and remove bad plans you call them bad, even when trying to take known things out of the government that are bad.
The issue is not conservatives and people like Agent saying these guys have to go.
It’s you justifying their staying.
Also, Obama is worse than Hillary.
Bob, I respectfully disagree that Obama is worse than Hilliary. She is Obama on steroids and will make everything exponentially worse if elected. Both are terrible and criminal. I liked that Trump said he would put her in jail. Unfortunately, the pardon would save her from time.
If we are talking morally, Clinton is worse and will certainly be a politician in bad terms.
However, if we talk about the plans she will pass, we are talking QE, Stimulus, PPACA, the battle methods on the gun front which I don’t think Hillary will be adept enough to push more gun control and then lie and say republicans are bad on it, I think she will lose that battle, I think Obama is worse.
She doesn’t have a plan to prop up housing prices and all that jazz either.
You can’t get much worse than Obama’s passed plans. I think the public will put a stop to some of it, and she’s going to try and back off and make everyone else seem crazy but will be stuck from doing to much. She will never get as much as Obama did.
What really would have done us in is if Bernie won.
And the sad thing is my generation is clueless as to the damage it would have caused if Bernie managed to get any plans passed or converted the left to be more towards the socialism side of the spectrum.
That would have literally been the worst president in our history.
I think people are exaggerating in terms of Hillary. I view her as slightly worse than average. I view Obama as a lot worse than average. I view Carter as the same. I view Clinton as average. I view FDR as the worst democrat we have had in history. This is where many people gasp and say I’m clearly partisan. The only reason people like FDR is they are taught to in school. The only person who has plans to possibly out do him is Bernie. The last democrat I respect and think was good was JFK, as he finally admitted that tax reductions made sense.
That should give you some idea of my metric scale on the left.
Now here is where I get weird. Due to the plans Bush W tried to pass but didn’t get, and I have listed the ones I liked, I rank Bush W as average good. I rank Reagan is very good. I rank Bush HW as bad, possibly as bad as I do Hillary. And in an odd one, while paranoid and over the top, I rank Nixon as average for a republican president. Whitewater was a trivial case compared to today and since his presidency. He did pass some good plans, even some affirmative action which most people don’t realize. I rank Ford as invisible. Hah. I don’t care for or against him. I don’t even call that average. I just call it 4 years that was blank in my mind.
So to recap:
Democrats from worst to best:
Bernie
FDR
Obama
Carter
Hillary
Bill Clinton
Republicans worst to best:
George HW
Nixon
Ford
Eisenhower (tie with Bush W)
Bush W
Reagan
And combined worst to best
Bernie
FDR
Obama
Carter
George HW Bush (I really don’t like this guy which should show you how much I don’t like most politicians that he is still a ways in)
Hillary
Nixon
Ford
Bill Clinton (We have finally reached someone I am luke warm in, showing again how much I really don’t like most politicians)
Eisenhower (First politician I like)
Bush W
Reagan
Oops, I left out JFK:
Bernie
FDR
Obama
Carter
George HW Bush (I really don’t like this guy which should show you how much I don’t like most politicians that he is still a ways in)
Hillary
Nixon
Ford
Bill Clinton (We have finally reached someone I am luke warm in, showing again how much I really don’t like most politicians)
Eisenhower (First politician I like)
Bush W
JFK
Reagan
So something my list shows about me:
In the first point, note the politicians I like. I’m not talking the people I am luke warm on or do not like. There are obviously a lot of democrats I think are on the worst end of the spectrum. But when you get to who I like, my second to highest is JFK.
And this isn’t due to civil rights like most people like him for.
This is largely due to breaking from democrat lines. He cut taxes and went against the typical democrat policies. He was aggressive to Cuba and strong on foreign issues. He was not about over regulating.
Unlike most people my age I don’t like JFK because it is popular and feels good to do so. I like him because I know his plans.
Lie #1…you can keep your doctor. Nope, had to find a new doctor.
Lie #2…you can keep your healthplan. Nope, plan was cancelled.
Fast forward to October 2016…Have been on Obamacare for 2 years now. Thank goodness my husband just qualified for Medicare, so he is off Obamacare. The premium was increasing an additional $400.00 per month starting 1/1/17. The Silver PPO in CA has been changed by Blue Cross to an EPO, meaning anything out of network is NOT COVERED except emergency. Thanks!
So, would you believe anything Hillary has to say about FIXING ACA?
I know of a few variations as to how Republicans hope to fix it by REPEALING it and starting with health savings accounts with tax breaks. The other feature is removal of licensing restrictions that impede competition by multiple private health insurers across multiple / all state lines. The key feature is enticing people to BUY health insurance when they are young. THAT last feature is a proprietary aspect of several of their proposals that is still controlled by the authors.
DePolarBearables,
HSAs and tax breaks do not address the cost of health care issue. Neither does allowing the selling of policies across state lines. That addresses the health insurance competition issue.
Are you advocating to remove health care insurance regulations from the states and handing it over to the Federal Government? If you allow companies to sell across state lines, it becomes interstate commerce. You do realize that, don’t you?
How do you entice people to buy something they do not believe they need?
Ron,
Oy vey, you switch gears so poorly. Deplorables already said this well on point 1:
The ACA doesn’t fix cost, and by the CBO numbers makes it worse. It increases the cost by 21% compared to the republican plan.
2: The credits are to solve the uninsured problem, and if you are saying that HSA’s and tax breaks don’t help with that, you are wrong.
A tax break to help the poor buy insurance and 21% lower premiums won’t do much to help our insurance problem because it doesn’t do anything to help cost in your mind? At what point should we act? Or do we only act when democrats put garbage up for vote like this, and then blame republicans for things not getting better?
Are you out of your mind?
So essentially cutting costs 21% and then giving credits which help people to buy insurance doesn’t do a large amount to help the poor with regards to insurance…
…
…
…
Also, the plan would need no new taxes and would be deficit neutral, whereas the 21$ higher premiums required tax increases to be deficit neutral.
…
…
Tell me why we should not have passed the republican plan.
The issue here is how democrats fight.
Because as Ron said, he has seen no plans. This is the republicans fault, even though they had a solution…
My God you can’t cure stupid.
And, apparently republicans are all about life and helping people as you said it recently until they are down trodden in their life after birth.
In light of the above, and the republican plan which gave credits (which helps ensure people work for insurance instead of larger emphasis on subsidies) we can safely assume your other comment was just you saying things based on your emotional issues and not facts.
Did that sting Ron? I imagine it did.
You of all people don’t get to talk about hypocrisy. I know I wreck your world and the safe space you made for your high and mighty self in regards to blaming both sides so in your mind you’re not at fault and everyone else is in politics…But you need a wake up call.
As I said before I’m mostly talking at you, so people see your ideals beaten in public and don’t fall for it, but I do hope you eventually change from this.
Bob,
If anything you said was coherent and addressed what I stated, maybe it would have stung.
My ideals are standing strong because I am able to defend them to rational people.
Bob, how many years has it been that you have been beating your head against the Ron wall? Have you made any gains in that battle? He is still as hard headed as ever. He should be having nightmares on his choice of Obama for two terms, but he doesn’t and he still thinks someone promoting Socialism for the country, poor governing, poor policies and dividing the country is a great thing. Amazing!
I don’t know how many years, but it’s more about beating his ideals in public at this point, so he doesn’t cause people to go in the wrong direction.
Bob,
First, you are not beating my ideals. We actually have very similar ideals.
Second, Even you think either one of us are that influential, you are far more narcissistic that I thought.
Amazing Ron. You should be aware that people did buy Health Insurance in the pre-Obama era and many liked their plans. Unfortunately for them, 6 million policies were cancelled and they were forced to buy Obamacare through a failed website we spent $1 Billion on.
Oh, yeah; CONTROLLING costs is a feature that ACA didn’t bother to address. In fact, ACA exacerbated costs by SUBSIDIZING THEM, after removal of some of the healthier risks through exemptions to about 2,000 employers or unions. Yes, exemptions increased the overall costs because employees and union members are generally healthier than the general population because they get regular health care service. Removing them through exemptions leaves a less healthy pool of risks whose costs are spread to the participants in health insurance under ACA provisions.
The problems arising under ACA are either the result of a carefully crafted plan to move toward a single payer system, assuming that Dems will remain in control of the White House after Obama’s 2nd term ends, OR a major blunder by a incredibly incompetent group of knuckleheads led by Gruber, Jarrett, Pelosi, and Reid, among many others.
DePolarBearables,
Why do you expect me to defend the PPACA? I know it did not address costs which is one of the main reasons I have been against it from the beginning.
Because you refuse to acknowledge the people who have tried to pass good plans?
Because you refuse to vote for them and instead rely on character assaults, blanket statements about spending, and gotcha’s in politics instead of actual policy.
That’s why.
… and the dumbest people will still vote for Dems, hoping they will fix ACA. Einstein had a definition that fits that group of people.
IF anyone voting for a Dem for POTUS or Senator wants to explain HOW their Communi…, er, Dem candidates will REVERSE the HYUUUGE increases in health care costs, WITHOUT USING premium SUBSIDIES (disguised as NEW TAXES or shifts of fungible federal tax revenues to health care premiums), please do so in reply to this post.
So, in some ways, and in limited instances, Gruber was correct.
DePolar, the dumbest people will vote for Dems because they are lazy and like the Obama entitlement society that he has promoted for the past 8 years. Why work when you can get the taxpayers to support you? You can be part of the 94.5 million over age 16 who choose not to work or can’t find work and give up looking. Then, the Dems proudly proclaim that they have a 5% unemployment rate and they create jobs. Unfortunately, they overlook the labor participation rate which is the lowest in 40 years.
“You can be part of the 94.5 million over age 16 who choose not to work or can’t find work and give up looking”
OR who are retired because they’re counted as “unemployed” in that statistic you cite.
There have been numbers that have shown the baby boomers are not the reason behind the lower LPR.
Whenever I show it isn’t the baby boomers you and Ron then comment on those who are still in college. When I show it isn’t those in college you then bring up the baby boomers.
Confused, get a grip. The LPR is high and people are out of work due to bad policies. Stop justifying a sustained bad scenario in terms of employment. Claiming employment issues doesn’t exist right now is not at all appropriate.
Bob,
I provided context to Agent’s quote that there are 94.5M unemployed folks over 16 years old.
You know that number includes all retirees, but not everyone knows that. That’s why I posted the extra context around that number.
I did not attack him, I didn’t ask for source data, I didn’t say or imply unemployment issues are nonexistent.
He said there are 94.6M unemployed and I simply added that retirees are counted as unemployed in that number.
Confused,
Which by default downplays the severity of unemployment. Rather than contributing and showing we have a problem, you dismissed someone who is clearly riled up about the problem.
I didn’t accuse you of an attack. I accused you of diverting attention from a real problem.
So let me show you what kids see, and see if you can relate and realize this based on how you think yourself when you see people like Agent.
Someone who is pissed off about the bad economy says they are pissed off about it, but is not an economic expert (as most voters aren’t) and makes a slight mistake in their numbers.
Then people swoop in and correct him, inclusive of moderates.
The moderates who correct him look civil. These are the people kids listen to. All they see is this:
Leftist – Attack
Right wing response – Attack
Moderate who does the mild correction you did: Person to listen to.
However, they too are not well versed on politics, so now they conclude that there is no employment problem, and that the original poster has no credibility and should not be listened to.
So all debate was stopped, because a moderate came in and made a comment that didn’t add to the conversation. If instead a moderate said your numbers are little off, and here’s what I think the issue is with unemployment, people would banter.
If moderates didn’t come in saying “stop talking like that” people would still debate when they “argue”.
But instead, everything is shut down before a conversation can be had.
So to date you’ve argued about the definition of stagnation to say agent didn’t have that right.
He’s wrong about who is included in the unemployed.
This is setting up the youth to listen to the left when they claim baby boomers aren’t why the LPR is low, and to ignore the bad LPR.
Then it is setting up kids to believe that incomes are not stagnant. It is also making them believe inflation is not bad. The government is manipulating that number by the way. They use an average that monitors the wrong things. When I graduated the apartments by me were $550 for a 2 bedroom. They are now $1,250. In that same time frame, house values around me are still not what they were before the recession. My house was $330,000 in 2007. I bought it at $200,000. The current value is $230,000. Houses in all of WA are the same. So we have much lower housing costs but much higher rent costs. Incomes? I kid you not, are exactly the same. Despite a higher technical minimum wage, I have consistently seen people making just as much as they did before the recession, or if any more, $2,000 per year. We have $9,600 additional housing costs for people just moving out on their own, and only $2,000 additional income, as well as blown up health insurance costs.
If we had let the housing market bottom out, houses would be even cheaper for one. Which is good, and thereafter the middle class would have tons left over. Second of all we should have done something about rent regulations. This is where I differ from republicans where I will now say that the amount of profit you should be able to receive per house should be a certain band of the amount the house costs you.
And then next: If we didn’t pass the ACA health care would be 20% less from an insurance stand point. Mine costs just from what I cover, $8,000 a year roughly. 20% less would be $1,600 per year. If houses were 20% less it would be $1,300 roughly down to $1,040 on a mortgage payment, or $3,120 a year for a rough $220,000 home (close to the median house price)
These two areas alone would make people have $4,720 more disposable income in the middle class range.
We then don’t need as much government spending. We don’t need as much taxes.
This is what we need to do. End this government over reach, and do reasonable government regulation.
To show something important I should say when I bought my house:
2009. In 7 years my house value has gone up to $230,000, and is still under the $330,000 original cost in 2007.
That being the case, in 2007 you could rent out the houses by me for $1,200 a month. I just talked with someone who is being charged $2,000.
There’s something wrong with those numbers. Buying the houses cheap and then running the rent higher that is.
This explains a lot about this websites’ comments section, as well as some other nationally recognized media outlets blog pages and comments sections….
https://stream.org/astroturf-outrage-machine-of-paid-trolls-floods-social-media-to-counteract-negative-news-about-hillary-clinton/
Please show me who has been defending or even supporting Hillary Clinton on this site? Just one.
Oh yeah, just like you didn’t really support Obama it’s just that McCain was terrible (well, Palin is who you said you didn’t like more, which is really just you being sexist. Yeah, I said it. Obama factually had less experience than Palin, you just didn’t like a woman with make up being womanly and a politician). It’s just that Romney was bad. It’s just that Trump was bad. The next election it will be the republican’s fault again that you keep electing the worst democrat politicians we have had since Carter.
Let me enlighten you: Even if a republican passed NO plans, it would be better than any of the democrat plans going through. When you increase insurance costs by 21% and then subsidize it, it’s only a matter of time before you bankrupt the nation. Then when you do energy control measures for environmentally friendly aspects at a high cost to performance ratio, that won’t solve the issue even if it were real, you bankrupt the nation further.
We cannot keep doing this.
Bob,
I did vote for President Obama. I WILL NOT vote for Hillary Clinton.
If you are free to make the assumption that I am against Sarah Palin because I sexist, then I am free to make the assumption that you do not like President Obama because you are a racist and against Hillary Clinton because you are a sexist. Fair enough?
You can stop doing this any time you wish. It is a free country.
Ron, we give you permission not to blog again. We need an apology from you for voting for Obama twice. Once should have been enough, but you didn’t wake up and smell the coffee (stench) from Obama. By the way, Johnson (what is Aleppo) is not a good choice either. Stay home this time and leave it to the adults.
Bob,
Are you going to continue to defend Agent now that he has instructed a fellow United States citizen to not vote? It does not get more un-American than that.
I have NEVER questioned or criticized someone else’s vote nor instructed someone else to not vote.
When have you ever seen me defend an assault Ron?
I believe you’re asking that solely because you believe somehow I am encouraging unfair behavior. I only defend agent when he’s being attacked.
On the other post: I never said you will vote for Hillary, but the way you are approaching this is why she will win. When you have two candidates and the policies of one will put us backwards, and the other one, as you yourself said, will not likely be able to get his plans, you go with the one who won’t get their plans.
Or if you’re like me, you realize Trumps plans are good, and hope he does. But in no scenario is it ok to run around blasting people as hypocrites and fools for wanting to vote Trump.
Very well, I will do this, and I have done it before. You should remember me saying something like “darn it, you have to argue in such a way that conservatives look reasonable” and more recently I commented on his post about Bill Clinton and rape. I don’t care for that style of debate. In fact I think it’s stupid.
I will now enter my commentary again, him saying you shouldn’t be able to vote is basically silly.
Are we good now?
Bob,
Why do you an Agent believe my vote is so influential that I will be the one to determine who is the next president? My vote is my voice and the message I intend to send is that none of the candidates are acceptable.
Let me put it another way:
1. Do you believe a US citizen should criticize another US citizen’s vote?
2. Do you believe a US citizens should instruct another US citizen to not vote?
You do realize that we do not vote for a presidential candidates domestic plans, right? We are really voting for who we want to be the face of the country and represent us on the world stage. If you want that to be Donald Trump, fine. Just understand why you are voting for a candidate. If you do not believe me, trying reading the Constitution. Show me where it says the president determines the tax code, trade agreements, health care, etc. If Congress does not want to work with him, he does not get anything done. If you do not believe me, ask President Obama.
It’s not your vote I’m concerned with. It’s how you talk about the voting process this year. I know how people operate and I know that if people talked about policy instead of the disbelief of what Trump may have paid for taxes, or what he may have said about women or Mexicans, and instead focused on the benefit of a wall, or ignored the supposed Muslim rhetoric and instead focused on policy to cause people to push back against the Islamic extremism, that we would have people that were not freaking out about this election. You are causing others to spiral out of control like triggered snow flakes, and then they don’t focus on facts. They focus on childish insults of politicians. Whether or not Hillary handled her emails and national security well is entirely different and related to her qualifications as a president, whether or not Trump said any of the above is not linked to his ability to be a president and his policy. I know the influence people like you have, because you make what you say popular to the youth, and then people like me are seen as the great dividers, instead of the wise people we are.
In reply to your questions:
“1. Do you believe a US citizen should criticize another US citizen’s vote?”
Yes. Absolutely, this is the only way to get them to reflect. You can vote wrong, and you should be made aware of the why.
“2. Do you believe a US citizens should instruct another US citizen to not vote?”
I already covered this. No.
What I see in kids is this desire to vote for the person who throws bones to social justice. Oh, he’s for the poor. Oh, he’s for gays. Oh, he’s for muslims.
And then, he didn’t pay fair taxes! He lied! Etc.
I don’t see people saying:
I like that plan.
In fact, I don’t see many people who know about republican plans. They instead become like you: They literally think they don’t exist and then start complaining about republicans not passing plans (because democrats lie and tell them this) and they can’t focus on reality.
Your type of behavior is exactly the issue. You keep missing plans Ron, surely you know this by now with how often I keep showing you them.
At one point in the past you even admitted I was right, that these were better plans. You probably forgot given you said I have failed every time to show plans. What you told me was well then they failed to sell it to the public. I then said it is not the fault of republicans that media didn’t do it’s job. And you said they should have done a better job of getting it out there, and I asked you how? I then asked when will you blame the people blocking their ability to do so? They don’t have infinite money and broadcast time or access to the methods to inform voters. Schools are dominated by liberals. Media is dominated by liberals. They can’t get truth out there.
Bob,
I know Republicans have plans and have acknowledged as such. My issue is their failure to govern when they have majorities, then find a way to blame the Democrats.
Now, they are divided among themselves because of their candidate’s behavior that is less than presidential. That is not just my opinion, it is fact.
I admire those that will not just tow the company line and will stick by their own principles.
How can we expect a President Trump to heal and unite the country when he has single-handedly divided his own party?
“I know Republicans have plans and have acknowledged as such. My issue is their failure to govern when they have majorities, then find a way to blame the Democrats. ”
In just this page you said I have failed to show any bills. This means you either were using ad hominem and knew plans existed but were mocking me (inappropriate and unlikely) or you didn’t know about the plans. Stop laying games Ron!
But back on the concept you just said:
You have no evidence of this, and I have proved the contrary. We don’t blame someone because they have a majority. If 10% of a majority of republicans don’t vote together on a bill, and 90% of democrats don’t vote for the bill, then we should be blaming the base 90% democrats failure to govern, not the 100% of republicans for 10% of their base. Also: The reason they haven’t been able to govern is democrats refuse to pass anything. This is a failure to govern on the part of democrats and you have not held them liable for it.
“Now, they are divided among themselves because of their candidate’s behavior that is less than presidential. That is not just my opinion, it is fact.”
Correction, liberals are destroying Trump so badly, republicans don’t know whether to unite behind Trump and allow their entire party to be destroyed or to go against him. Being divided is better than being united when it comes to these things. It shows you banter and disagree. At some point varying opinions will then come together and make a good plan. However, Democrats only operate when people agree to start. They don’t disagree first and come together. They operate trying to agree first and then moving forward. This is why they throw out constant republican gun control bills, and constantly throw out republican healthcare bills.
“I admire those that will not just tow the company line and will stick by their own principles.”
This contradicts with what you just said above. Division is bad, except for…When it’s good. Very nice logic there.
“How can we expect a President Trump to heal and unite the country when he has single-handedly divided his own party?”
This is idealistic and stupid. Sorry Ron. How can we expect him to heal the country? By not baby talking the country. The division currently is indefinitely from democrats. Sorry, it’s just a fact, to quote you. There have been 1,500 black lives matters protests since Obama started speaking pretty about black lives matters. 15 mother @%@#%ing hundred Ron. There have only been what, under 10 black people shot, (the majority of which were attacking police officers or ignoring commands). And the hands up don’t shoot, when Obama commented on that lie, that is what triggered them.
In the first point:
When Trump’s plans help the nation people won’t be divided as much.
In the second point:
We don’t elect presidents based on how they appear to be presidential. We elect them based on plans.
Also, I will finally speak some religion here.
Go look in the bible for the end of times. What does it say about the people who will destroy the Earth? Does it say sinners will do it? No. Not your average sinner anyway. It says the people in control of the nations who TALK AS IF THEY ARE GODLY WHEN THEY ARE NOT will destroy the world. You’re a Catholic. Go look it up. I don’t have time to find the verse. The bible specifically talks about a group of leader types of people who will speak well and spread lies and mislead others.
So who do you think fits this bill, that could mislead the masses, and is telling people things that are against the bible are ok, was just recently in leaked emails shown to condemn Catholics as the “bastardization” of faith, and has been pushing everything God doesn’t like? (Abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, free rides, forced wealth distribution, etc?) Who is sounding like they are claiming they are for just morals all the time in the public eye, and is SUCCEEDING en masse?
Who is united in planned parenthood, using that to attach healthcare of women to abortion so that if you want women to have healthcare you must kill? That’s a clever one. Instead of separating it and shutting that down?
You talk about the fact that republicans don’t talk well more than anything else. It’s absurd. We are going to focus on plans. Not you’re idealistic “divisive behavior” crap.
““I know Republicans have plans and have acknowledged as such. My issue is their failure to govern…”
I suppose I left out one other possibility which is the most likely. They have good plans but you blame them for not being able to pass them.
This still makes your comment at me absurd when you said I failed to show bills.
It means yet again you like the plans republicans have but will vote democrat simply because bills aren’t being passed, and you think that is the fault of republicans instead of the democrats who are getting in the way, and then reward the democrats who got in the way.
You’ve got to get wiser with your voting habits.
Also, when you can’t talk and tell someone to stay home and leaving voting to the pros,
Which is a lecture, it is not actually a call to not vote,
And you then say this:
“2. Do you believe a US citizens should instruct another US citizen to not vote?””
I think you miss how to talk as well. And that is another issue I have with you. I’m not going to walk on eggshells when I talk to the youth, something your side is making happen.
THAT is divisive. Making people have to walk through the land mines on how to speech. Screw that. That alone is enough for me to not be democrat. I support people who don’t talk well. I support people who use ridicule and expressions to make their points and to ridicule bad points.
When the day has arrived that you are taking it far too seriously that Agent told you not to vote, we have an issue.
You shouldn’t even be asking me that 2nd question. It shows your immaturity.
Bob,
You said, “It means yet again you like the plans republicans have but will vote democrat simply because bills aren’t being passed, and you think that is the fault of republicans instead of the democrats who are getting in the way, and then reward the democrats who got in the way.”
When did I say I only vote for Democrats. I have previously stated that I vote mostly for Republicans. I have even said I like most of the Republican plans. Why do you miss it when I say those things?
In my opinion, we need less Democrats and Republicans and more Independents.
Ron, as usual, your reading comprehension fails you. Since you have a very poor track record on voting after proudly proclaiming you studied positions on Romney and Obama, you turned around and voted for Obama twice. Obviously, your analysis and beliefs are Progressive Liberal and not Independent which would at least look at backgrounds of candidates before pulling the lever. You were a supporter of Obama for Obamacare before you were against it. Sounds a lot like Kerry, doesn’t it? I still don’t see how anyone in their right mind could have possibly voted for the worst President in the past century. Liberal Koolaid muddles the mind.
fact: Hillary Clinton pays trolls to comment positively on her behalf
theory: Agent said this explain’s a lot of people who post here
fact: The two biggest “progressive socialists” that post here per agent (myself and Ron) have come out saying we don’t like Hillary. I have said she is a super-duper liar many times, and both Ron and I admit we won’t be voting for her.
theory: agent lives in an alternate reality
fact: if there were paid trolls were posting positive comments for Hillary on IJ, someone would have seen them by now. “Hillary” appears 24 times “Clinton” appears 15 times on this page. there are 0 positive posts about hillary or clinton in the 137+ comments above.
theory: agent cannot support his theory with any evidence
(please prove me wrong agent – where are those pro-hillary posts?)
I will say the following:
There are insurance articles here that are clearly geared towards politics intentionally, and there are those here who clearly turn non political posts into political ones. I’m not sure Agent is saying you and Ron are the paid trolls, but he is triggered for a reason. This site is out of hand, often. Someone could be intentionally getting people riled up here.
Off of that topic, because I think that is a low chance, but you just basically went after his credibility again so I defended him:
Being against Hillary for the wrong reasons, and not voting for her, does not make you educated voters.
When you run around doing the “And you’re going to vote for Trump!?!?” it discourages Trump voters, it ruins elections, and it gives us Obama.
Last election you guys said “and you’re voting Romney?” as character assaults kept on coming, and policy ones you guys actually agreed with Romney. Neither of you were truly for Obama. You were against Romney. Seeing a pattern?
Anyone but Bush! Anyone but McCain! Anyone but Romney! Anyone but Trump!
And each person, since Bush W, has been labeled as being crazier than the last. Bush W was supposedly the worst president in history despite actually being good (and he was, and I can prove it). McCain was as Obama said, some ways worse than Bush. Then Romney was worse than Bush. Now Trump is worse than everyone.
These people were all reasonable, and all better than Obama and Hillary.
It isn’t enough to “claim” you won’t vote Hillary. You need to be active on the truth of conservatism, and need to stop assaulting it while defending liberalism. Until then, agent and myself will blame you for Hillary and Obama, rightly so.
Apparently, you stay Confused 24/7. Paid liberal bloggers will attack like you do all the time against any Conservative like me, Bob, DePolar. It is all negative all the time. No pro Hillary posts because she is the worst of all time and has nothing positive to promote. By the way, it was DePolar that provided the links you love so much on how bloggers are paid to offset all the negatives on Hilliary. Too bad you didn’t read it and just launched into another tirade.
Hi guy who questions other people’s reading comprehension!
You just wrote “Too bad you didn’t read [the link proving Hillary pays people to post online] it and just launched into another tirade.”
Did you even bother to read the FIRST WORD I posted in my reply?
fact: Hillary Clinton pays trolls to comment positively on her behalf
I called it a fact, not a theory. Just like you claiming for months I voted for Obama twice (fact: I voted for him 0 times) and that you kept claiming I love Obamacare (fact: i’ve called it a super-duper failure), I fully expect you to continue to post how I doubt the veracity of that fact.
You know, it sounds like you’re a paid conservative blogger who attacks like you do all the time against any non-conservative poster. It’s all negative all the time with you, even when I say I agree. Case in point….
Do you agree the ~95 million unemployed people over 16 statistic you quoted above is really bad for our country, and unemployment is really high in the US, and it’s a problem, but that the number is slightly inflated because it counts those who have retired from the workforce (and who never intended to seek further employment even if the economy was excellent) as unemployed?
DePolar, interesting article. I have said that IJ was very close to being taken over by the liberal element. IJs tends to let the nasty lefty posters get away with far too much. It really is shameful. I have warned them about this on several occasions, but management is tone deaf apparently.
I am voting for Trump, if only to repeal Obamacare.
The democrats had no kahonies to listen to WE THE PEOPLE when we were saying that Obamacare would not work. Now, we hear them whining and blaming republicans….
Good one DC. How about a good quote from Samuel Clemons aka Mark Twain?
A man’s character may be learned from the adjectives he habitually uses in conversation.
Many on this blog habitually insult and swear in their blog conversation. Not very professional, is it?
Yeah; I could never understand the argument that all these problems with healthcare insurance is the Republicans fault. It must be the Dems logic that since the Republicans weren’t invited to the CLOSED DOOR meetings among the Dems that the Republicans are to blame for not stopping ACA before it was passed…
… before Nanny Nancy told us we’d have to pass it….
… to find out what’s in it!
Yes, it’s because of those $&^*# Republicans who weren’t able to read the minds of the architects of ACA, such as Jonathan Gruber and maybe Valerie Jarrett, that we are now suffering with the secret provisions of ACA that are gradually being revealed.
I read most of the posts in this comments section, and what I learned is:
Liberals can only defend the Affordable Care Act by claiming the Republicans don’t have a plan to replace it, and the Republicans are responsible for its’ failure because they objected to it AFTER it was passed and implemented.
Many Liberals’ posts are hidden due to low ratings.
Many Conservatives’ and Moderates’ posts are highly rated.
After reading 140+ posts, I’m still in the same position, knowledge-wise, from which I started.
It’s time to abandon this comments thread.
I wonder what your moniker will be when you come back again, Yogi.
Don’t let the door hit ya!!
Promise everything, deliver nothing and blame everyone else.
I have been an advocate of the single payer healthcare model. ACA is not that but was – I believe – intended to get more Americans health care coverage.
Clearly, ACA has its problems and I recognize most of you are opposed to it. What I’d truly like to learn is what you would propose to replace ACA??
I don’t think that simply rewinding to 20 years ago is a viable solution. The health care system we had prevented those with pre-existing conditions from getting viable coverage and left many people (millions) with no coverage at all.
The data I’ve seen (admittedly not verified for accuracy or completeness) suggests that simply making it harder to bring medical malpractice suits – or even giving medical personnel complete immunity – would not make cost of care affordable for most.
So what is a solution that gets everyone who wants it good (not necessarily “the best,” but 1st world quality) medical care and perscription drugs in a way that is affordable?
I truly want to understand the position of those of you opposed to ACA (or single payer) and appreciate your thoughtful response.
mr_risk,
I agree with you. Since i have been debating the merits of the single payer model for years, I am well versed in the opponents’ positions.
1. Tort reform, which I actually agree. However, I have seen studies that indicate the savings would be less than 2%.
2. Increasing competition by allowing companies to sell across state lines. Prob;em is that regulation goes from the states to the federal government since it would be considered interstate commerce. I have not seen any studies that indicate what savings this may lead to.
3. Provide tax credits (subsidies) for premiums.
4. Charge younger insureds less and older insureds more.
5. Move high risk insureds to unaffordable state pools. Of course they will say the government would provide subsidies for them.
Did I miss anything?