This is an incredibly horrible tragedy, which may have been prevented, or at least, reduced. The problem with second-guessing is that those intent on doing evil will find new ways to do so if blocked in some manner.
Gun control proposed by liberal politicians, usually before the bodies of those killed are cold, is NOT the solution. The weapon used was illegal, and everyone who understands current gun laws knows this fact.
People who are high risk individuals should lose some of their rights for the safety of others. This may not have worked in this case as there were no signs – per reports I’ve read to date – that Paddock was a high risk.
Concert halls, stadiums, hotels, and other venues where people congregate in high numbers, should increase their security measures / procedures through current technology monitoring of clients and patrons. This too may not have prevented this tragedy, but it would make it more difficult for the perpetrator to bring weapons along.
Law enforcement agencies, including ICE, need more funding to be pro-active, and in the case of ICE, to be reactive in tracking down MS-13 members, drug smugglers, coyotes, etc. This too won’t ELIMINATE (mass) murders, robberies, rapes, and other types of violent assault, but it will reduce the frequency greatly.
Recidivism studies need to be heeded by parole court justices/ administrators. Funding of such studies, and monitoring of those who are high risks (e.g. estranged spouses who show high risk tendencies in spousal abuse cases) needs to be increased.
Early reports by the ‘authorities’ (FBI?) indicate the perp had no ties to terrorist organizations, yet ISIS claimed he was one of their ‘soldiers’. ISIS never claims responsibility unless they can prove it, or it is clearly the case. How this discrepancy is resolved will be interesting to watch. I think ISIS is lying, but why did they change their posture in this case? I think it is a means of recruitment because they realize they are losing the battle now that TrumPresident has given the military more authority and ‘tools’ to track them down and eliminate them. (I’m still not getting tired of winning.)
What’s wrong, Libitteral? Couldn’t muster up enough down votes from your friends to censor my post? Go to a WIFI zone and create a few accounts to manually BOT my post into hidden status… ready, steady, … GO!
That has literally never happened before. To think that anyone on here cares enough to create fake accounts to downvote posters on a meaningless small potatoes forum is so laughable to me.
Why would anyone care to do this? WHat would it prove? Personally, I read “hidden” posts more than non-hidden ones, just to see what they said to be so detested that people couldn’t help but down-vote it.
Your attitude and content are a cancer to this website.
“That has literally never happened before. To think that anyone on here cares enough to create fake accounts to downvote posters on a meaningless small potatoes forum is so laughable to me”
How long have you been posting here Doug? There were time periods when the mods interfered because the dislikes and likes went to near a hundred. After they fixed the duplicate votes, likely from tracking IP addresses, the numbers, particularly on mine, went from 60, 70, 80, to 2 dislikes. It has literally never happened before? It was a serious problem in the past that they had to fix.
As for your insults regarding “yogi” (See Polar)’s immigration commentary, there was nothing disgusting there. The reason he came back calling you a libitteral, is because you were basically so indoctrinated in your reply it is simply absurd.
October 4, 2017 at 12:39 pm
Doug Fisher says:
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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That I was not aware of, but he wavers in between two statements consistently:
“Yay! IJ has banished the trolls and they have solved the BOT problem. Drinking Libitteral tears now!”
to
“All you downvoters are obviously BOTs and people going to coffee shops with the express purpose of winning internet political arguments!”
It can’t be both. Could it possibly be instead that the majority of people do not like his posts and believe his musings to be of low or zero worth?
Because in my 6 months or so here, I cannot say I have seen him post more than 4 or 5 worthwhile, non-insane sentences that weren’t full of spite, baiting, paranoia, conspiracies, latent racism or bigotry, and outright lies (whether he knows they are or not is immaterial to the fact).
When he is called out, he disappears or says stupid things like “rabbit hole!” or other inanities and pivots to his next point which is immediately disputed with evidence, ad nauseum.
Why would anyone engage in discourse with him?
October 4, 2017 at 1:20 pm
bob says:
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That’s a pretty good job of sidestepping everything I addressed.
What’s your argument? I should disregard everything he says?
I’ve openly called out some of his attitudes, however, some, is not synonymous with all, and using some to discount all his commentary is inhumane, and I would argue, the OPPOSITE of liberal. Right now I’m talking about the true liberalism, which seems to have died. I’m not talking politics.
I have seen many here, mostly the leftists, (a difference to democrats) openly ok with disregarding ALL arguments from people they don’t like.
Do you perceive this promotes a level of open information and the ability to find facts from any avenue and become wiser?
Because I certainly don’t.
That sounds off topic, but I just addressed what you just did, and why it isn’t ok.
October 4, 2017 at 4:05 pm
PolarBeaRepeal says:
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@bob; Doug is living in an alternate universe, hence: ‘this has never happened before…’.
October 4, 2017 at 4:32 pm
bob says:
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Let’s give him some credit. He honestly didn’t know, I believe him.
But yeah, this conversation has turned very nutty.
October 4, 2017 at 6:25 pm
UW says:
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What the F are wifi zones? And now you redefine bots to a definition that makes no sense when compared to how you’ve used it for a year. You also need to have your supposed IT guy explain the absolute basics about IP addresses. Damn you truly know nothing.
Why aren’t there hundreds of votes anymore? Hmm maybe in part because 70% of the posters left after Yogi and Agent started getting people banned and started flaming every single thread all day, 5 days a week, and Andrew did nothing to them. Most stories get no comments and few get any significant amount. The 3 imbeciles have forced a ton of people to leave. It’s just a site to come look at the ignorant, science denying, reality denying, racist trash now, kind of like a zoo.
Yogtard claimed the pics and video of Trump looking at the eclipse were photoshopped – it’s a comedy site now.
October 3, 2017 at 7:20 pm
PolarBeaRepeal says:
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Only a few more downvotes needed to censor my posts. Go for it! Get out your coffee house rewards card and sit around long enough to down vote via their WIFI and Tor accounts.
there are NO BOTS on this site. The site used to allow multiple votes from the same IP address, but no longer does. Now when something is hidden, it’s legitimately because the majority of people don’t like the post.
This is a tragic, horrible and terrifying event. I do not know how something like this can be prevented. I also agree with Polarbear and his general theory. Our country needs to tighten up on its controls. I don’t see where he blames the Mexicans for this, nor was this deranged person an illegal immigrant. But we should tighten up our borders for illegals as there are terrorists entering our country. We should tighten up procedures and rights for gun ownership and the types of guns available. A person with mental health issues should not have guns. ISIS claims responsibility for just about every tragedy, which probably is either correct in some instances and a recruiting/advertising tool in others.
But how can anyone stop what happened here? A seemingly normal guy just snapped. If he attended the concert, they would have caught him at the metal detectors. But he didn’t. He booked a room overlooking the event, broke the window and took aim. How could Mandalay Bay know? I doubt he checked in carrying his weapons. Maybe better coordinated lists of who owns what guns could be an indicator of a nut job ready to go off, or it could be an indicator of a gun collector.
Jack; half of what Kim Jong UW writes in reply to my posts is simply trolling. Laugh at the other half as he doesn’t stay on topic in an attempt to take these discussions into rabbit holes.
More insults from the Imbecile In Chief. No content, nothing but incorrect information and not a single reality-based thought in his head. A total waste of a life.
The Wynne Hotel chain is now requiring a check-in process where bags are subject to search or scanning on a conveyor belt similar to TSA screening. Hooray for that! Whenever someone is entering a public arena / domicile/ building where he/ she can potentially cause mayhem, there is great public support for such searches / restrictions on liberty.
If you carry legal things, like guns, you should have NO CONCERNS about your bags being searched. OTOH, if you’re carrying forbidden items, don’t check into a hotel, onto a plane, bus, cruise ship or elevator.
If you want less personal liberties, move to Cuba, Venezuela, Russia, Iran, Syria, NK, Iraq, etc.
No doubt that is an accurate statement… Unless something is done to prevent it from happening again.
Since nobody on the right wants to talk about how to fix this problem, it will never stop. We can decide enough is enough, or settle in for a lot more Las Vegas, Aurora, Sandy Hook, Fort Hood, Orlando incidences and so on.
Some countries have had terrible shootings like this happen, and then they take steps to prevent them from happening again. Crazy, I know.
Why America is opposed to progress and the prevention of thousands of lives lost annually is beyond me.
You listed American tragedies, but omitted murders, rapes, and robberies committed by Illegal Immigrants (e.g. MS-13) in the US, as well as the larger number of acts of terrorism committed in the EU and in the UK by radical Islamic residents or invaders. The means of accomplishing the murders, rapes, and robberies isn’t as important as is the SOURCE of the evil; i.e. the mindset of the perps.
Bodyguards of politicians own and carry guns, yet those Liberal politicians now taking the opportunity to politicize the death of and injuries to hundreds are not afraid of the guns used to PROTECT them.
And, despite the obvious use of those guns for THEIR protection, Liberal Socialist/ Communist politicians (and their supporters, acting like zombies in lock-step) want to remove guns from LAW-ABIDING citizens to leave them defenseless against CRIMINALS who will not, by definition, obey any prior or future gun laws.
MAGA; roll back punitive and dangerous gun laws enacted by states.
Seems to me we have a very serious mental health issue in this country but want to keep blaming the problem on guns. I think we would see these terrible crimes decrease if we had institutions for those that aren’t mentally stable enough to live in society. Clearly you have mental issues if you are able to go out in the world and just start killing innocent people.
You need a history lesson, sonny. Liberals allowed mental institutions to release many of their patients in the 1970s and 1980s on the hypothesis that living outside those institutions would help heal them. It did and didn’t work, and when it failed miserably, murders happened. We also got many other violent crimes from those mental patients who shouldn’t have been released.
Those funding cuts are NOT impacting the ability of the existing institutions; it merely reduces waste that was being perpetuated by experiments, etc., that didn’t yield any useful knowledge.
October 4, 2017 at 1:06 pm
bob says:
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This is beyond inept, and is basically virtue signaling. We get it. You love people. Conservatives are paranoid gun wielding evil people who don’t. The youth has such a superiority complex these days…Unbelievable the ego you have.
This shows that the vast majority of gun deaths are suicides. Other injuries are out of control, so it stands to reason some laws regarding proper storage might be an issue.
Several of these years see deaths in the single digits. Out of 11,000 some deaths, with the vast majority of these hand gun deaths, the narrative of banning some of the bad guns is absurd. The narrative of banning hand guns is more absurd. It is not about paranoia, as Polar has said so well, body guards and police are armed for a reason, defense is needed.
And more on that, there are about 100,000,000 gun owners roughly. I’ve given these numbers before. Police nationwide there are 900,000 and they are not all armed with firearms. While we don’t have good numbers for the deaths from police, and here I take a liberal source on purpose yet again:
This one claims at least what turns out to be 866 a year. What do you notice? Let’s say there are a million armed cops, close to all of them are armed in other words. This means that cops are not far off from being 100 times more deadly than your standard gun owner. I’ll round up to 1 million cops. Multiply by 100 to get to 100 million, they would kill 86,600 per year vs 11,000 on the other end.
If however, as is more likely, only half are armed, we have 11,000 vs 173,200, and again, to make the numbers easy I rounded up by 10%, so these numbers are actually higher.
While I agree, we have a serious over policing problem in the U.S. (not just on the black side, on both, which is why I don’t like black lives matters) I do not think it would be a good idea in any world to disarm police. Similarly, I do not believe in any world it makes sense to disarm gun owners, especially due to mass shooting gun violence that amounts to less than 1% of all gun deaths, and bring that up every time tp push a narrative. I also think that claiming it is exploding out of control (mass shootings) is wildly disingenuous and is contrary to the evidence. You don’t care about actual gun deaths. You care about the narrative, social justice warrior. You’re not as a virtuous of a person as you believe.
Now I’m going to wait for UW to mock my sources with the rest of you, ignore my data and methodology, and start on the we are so much better than you train.
Suicides I don’t really even count. I would argue it would be more inhumane for them to attempt by other means, I don’t get your point here.
B:
I responded to:
“No doubt that is an accurate statement… Unless something is done to prevent it from happening again.
Since nobody on the right wants to talk about how to fix this problem, it will never stop. We can decide enough is enough, or settle in for a lot more Las Vegas, Aurora, Sandy Hook, Fort Hood, Orlando incidences and so on.
Some countries have had terrible shootings like this happen, and then they take steps to prevent them from happening again. Crazy, I know.
Why America is opposed to progress and the prevention of thousands of lives lost annually is beyond me.”
In terms of deaths, and yet, I still said it seems a reasonable case could be made for storage of guns and accidental injuries, which are unreasonably high. I did not discount injuries, I simply didn’t go over them. To criticize me for what I said by what I didn’t, is insane confused. You got your aha didn’t you, idiot? My audacity? The audacity is in yours to come after me on that basis as if I do not care about society, and as I have said numerous times THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. An apology is demanded immediately. Debate like this is not ok.
As for the police numbers: They still work. I included only homicides on both. Should I include injuries on that end too? The point of death to death cops vs people, is that people are literally greater than a hundred times safer with guns. I will then ask you the same question, as the same logic applies, even including injuries from guns: SHOULD WE DISARM COPS? And if we should disarm citizens based on injuries, why? SHOW YOUR WORK. Are you claiming that citizens do not come across the need for use of weapons but police do? Why? SHOW YOUR WORK. You are an idiot, and I’m tired of your social justice arguments, and cliché aha moments.
I don’t work like this. If you want to debate me, it is NOT acceptable to say “hey, you don’t think these lives matter buddy?” that MANDATES ME to say SCREW YOU.
When I show someone is wrong on data, and is pointing to an epidemic, after they questioned the morality of everyone but themselves, it makes sense for me to take this style. For you IT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT.
Retract the statement, and we can continue on injury, after you make the terms. Again, I just said YOU MAKE THE TERMS so I am not dominating you, which I know your social justice side will take that avenue of defense next, by saying YOU WILL NOT START WITH DEGRADING CRAP WITH ME. If you want to debate at this point we will do numbers. Do you have a problem with this?
October 4, 2017 at 2:49 pm
Confused says:
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Why would I have an issue discussing numbers with you? That’s exactly what I posted!
I know what you were responding to, but clearly you don’t know what I was. You said “Several of these years see deaths in the single digits. Out of 11,000 some deaths, with the vast majority of these hand gun deaths, the narrative of banning some of the bad guns is absurd.”
So the narrative of banning some bad guns is absurd because the vast majority of hand gun deaths in the years you’re debating were suicides (you wrote this as one complete sentence, meaning the two parts of the sentence are definitely related to each other).
So you do agree we should include all gun incidents (death & injuries) when discussing numbers to base our narrative of gun control off of, right? Because that’s not what you said the first time around.
And no dude, I don’t want to take guns away from cops or from the general population as an entire group. I never said or implied that. Let me make this clear – I am for gun control, but I’m not saying we should take away every single gun from everyone.
October 4, 2017 at 2:51 pm
Confused says:
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FYI – the paragraph you quoted as the one you were responding to didn’t mention death at all!
YOU threw that term in your reply and focused your response to be specific about deaths.
Obviously there were injuries in all those other events Doug posted, but you decided to respond to just the deaths in those events and not the injuries too
October 4, 2017 at 3:55 pm
bob says:
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I should also add, I included in another post the numbers regarding violence in countries post passing gun laws.
The actual person here who had audacity, is you. Gun deaths happened and are bad m’kay?
So the numbers you say I didn’t direct, I DID just not the way you wanted and not in the same post. I included numbers on what happened when gun laws were put in place. I HAVE numerous times in the past went over this in terms of what guns do, like perchance help people defend themselves against rape, and even in the post you got ticked about, I said a few things that implied I was already looking at violence such as:
“Other injuries are out of control, so it stands to reason some laws regarding proper storage might be an issue” emphasis on OTHER INJURIES.
I also said:
“It is not about paranoia, as Polar has said so well, body guards and police are armed for a reason, defense is needed.”
In what percent of violent crime is someone DEFENDING with a gun? What I am also eluding to is that same aspect of defending against violence with a gun, as in, some degree of violence will get worse without guns. So I did cover a bit of violent crime on here, in ways you certainly did not. Were you just not caring about these people? Can I now mock your morality?
Your inept commentary includes no links, other than trying to manipulate my own, to try and say what I left out with aha moments.
I don’t have time for idiots Confused, I didn’t even bother reading your other comments because this is absurd. If you don’t see the usefulness in my comments, and do from people like Doug, the issue here is beyond my ability to explain away.
You need to analyze that attitude of aha, cliché lines, and how dare you not care about people! It’s absurd, and I don’t tolerate it.
From anyone, but your side does it the most.
October 4, 2017 at 4:10 pm
PolarBeaRepeal says:
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Suicides harm only 1 person. I thought the concern of Liberals was mass murder, not suicides?
PS suicides are committed by means other than guns; e.g. Robin Williams hung himself. Take away guns and suicides will still occur, albeit by different means.
October 4, 2017 at 4:27 pm
Confused says:
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“I didn’t even bother reading your other comments”
Yet you continue to ask me questions! Excellent trolling. You actually had me for ~5 posts thinking we were having a two-way conversation!
October 4, 2017 at 6:13 pm
UW says:
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Of course he did, Confused, that was the best way to look right regardless of reality.
October 6, 2017 at 10:03 am
UW says:
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He doesn’t use garbage, far right-wing sources, in fact he rarely looks at them [links to Prager U video]. Lol
October 4, 2017 at 1:29 pm
Confused says:
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where did Doug say he wants to take everyone’s guns away? gun CONTROL is not the same as prohibition. great job arguing a point he never made.
Ok I’m sick of you and your kind being disingenuous.
It is precisely what Doug wants. See his arguments for countries that disarmed their citizens.
And regardless of this I want to hear a reasonable solution which would decrease deaths without limiting self defense of normal people.
Go ahead. I’ll wait.
Background checks including mental health? In these bills we have seen that age counts. As many have gone over, some odd things come with age, but they are not mentally unstable owning a gun. What mental aspects are suitable? Are we going to go back to when the government said what lifestyles and thoughts were ok? Will we monitor facebook for aggressive comments? That is where that obviously will go, and we will have little if any affect as we go there. This is not the way we want to go. And I will ask you if it would be ok if we mandated mental health checks for Muslims entering the country, and could monitor their mosques as well. Would you be ok with this? But Confused! Orlando! But Confused, people died! You’re an idiot! It boggles my mind. Let’s target anyone who owns a gun with government sponsored mental health checks, great idea.
Rather than telling me I’m being absurd for saying non specific action to stop gun violence repeatedly berating gun owners and the NRA and anyone who supports gun ownership is immoral, why don’t you do something productive? I’m tired of your cliché social justice I am so great lines. We get it, you think I’m evil and a hypocrite. ADD SOMETHING TO THE DEBATE.
The countries that have “disarmed” their populace still allow for gun ownership, but it is harder to buy a gun in those countries than to order a pair of contact lenses.
Take Japan for example:
1.Take all day class
2.Take written test
3. Take mental health exam
4. Background check covers any prior violent crimes, as well as affiliations with any known violent parties.
5. Must report location of firearm in house to police. Must keep ammunition and firearm separate and in different locked cases.
In America:
1. Go to gun show with money or contact private party on Craigslist.
2. Hand owner money.
3. Own gun.
There seriously isn’t a problem with this?
October 4, 2017 at 4:12 pm
PolarBeaRepeal says:
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‘Take guns away’ is not the same as gun control legislation.
Are you going to continue moving from one issue to another when you’ve been boxed in with facts?
I’ve only argued for gun CONTROL. Did I ever post that we should take everyone’s guns away? Cite it! READY….STEADY…GO!
October 5, 2017 at 6:29 pm
PolarBeaRepeal says:
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Define CONTROL, and explain why Chicago’s Gun CONTROL laws have not reduced GUN VIOLENCE / DEATHS via murders of a gang-on-gang or a gang-vs-innocent nature.
October 5, 2017 at 5:48 pm
mrbob says:
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OK Confused I will bite what gun control would you propose that would virtually guarantee that we not have another Las Vegas or Sandy Hook incident?
Please do not point to the weapon used as there are numerous weapons other than scary black rifles that have caused significant carnage. You need look no further back in history for the proof of this than the Texas Tower shooter, his weapons of choice were:
Remington 700 ADL
M1 Carbine
Sears Model 60 Shot Gun
Smith and Wesson model 19 revolver
Luger P08 pistol
Galesi-Brescia pistol
and finally a knife
With these weapons he murdered 18 innocents and wounded another 31.
The Oklahoma City Bombers
Weapons
U Haul truck
Ammonium nitrate and Nitromethane
Glock 21-not used
168 murdered
680 or possibly more injured
Weapons are not evil people are. Why the uptick in violence in our society of this type I am not certain, but I do know from where I sit, it tends to correlate to a societal shift away from fundamental moral principles.
Nothing will be done without gun laws. Conservatives and the NRA won’t allow that. We have to just accept that for scared people to have their guns we are going to have constant, worsening mass shootings.
The claims that ISIS doesn’t make false claims was pushed by InfoWars and Alex Jones, right before saying he had Antifa literature and that it was probably a setup and he was a patsy. Consider that when you see people making these claims, and remember where these “moderates” get their information.
ISIS claimed that they shot down a US warplane in Syria when none had been shot down, that they assassinated a US officer in Turkey when they didn’t, and claimed 2 other attacks this year they were not responsible for, most prominently in Manilla. Yogi doesn’t know what he’s talking about. The truth is that ISIS has been decimated starting in early 2015,and have made a lot of false claims on an attempt to seem more relevant than they are. Of course some know-nothing morons say Trump has wiped them out, right after making absolutely false statements that your cannot make with even a basic understanding of ISIS.
No laws were broken by the perp…. anyone who argues now for gun control is arguing for innocent people to lose the right to defen themselves.
Why don’t politicians fear their bodyguards carrying guns? Libitterals have now been boxed into a corner by their stupid, illogical motives to control citizens.
So because laws weren’t broken by the perp, we should definitely not create new laws to prevent the same situation from happening.
Gotcha.
Yogi is legitimately saying there is no way to stop these mass murders from happening. America is apparently less competent than the UK, Australia, Spain, France, Denmark, etc. etc etc etc Who all have high gun ownership but due to a ton of extremely reasonable gun ownership laws and regulations have shooting death rates a FRACTION of what America has.
You are pathetic to believe that it can’t be done in America.
Apparently, US police are so incompetent, they can’t stop criminals whereas every other first-world country that has tried has succeeded.
Report this: Yogi believes that American police are incompetent.
October 3, 2017 at 3:20 pm
UW says:
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Nuclear weapons don’t kill people; people do, so let North Korea have nuclear weapons, right Yogtard?
October 3, 2017 at 3:31 pm
Doug Fisher says:
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UW:
REPORTED!! Wahhhhhh!
October 3, 2017 at 4:10 pm
Godot says:
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Doug Fisher, this will go on your permanent record; your future may be compromised.
And yes, Yogi and one other commenter truly believe that others spend the time and effort setting up multiple accounts and using multiple computers in order to down-vote them and comment. It’s a big sad, frankly.
I’m on your side Polar, but I understand he had a WWII machine gun, which is illegal. The guy was evil. I’m tired of hearing people refer to him as sick. He is evil.
Thanks. That’s news to me…. didn’t follow the gun details after the first report I heard. He did break laws regarding murder, of course, but that’s not what I originally meant.
No laws were broken by the perp…. anyone who argues now for gun control is arguing for innocent people to lose the right to defen themselves.
Why don’t politicians fear their bodyguards carrying guns? Libitterals have now been boxed into a corner by their stupid, illogical motives to control citizens.
In the UK, a school shooting in ’96 led to tightened gun-ownership restrictions and a handgun ban that has almost eliminated murders by guns entirely. A report last year stated that there are about 56 deaths by gun in the UK PER YEAR.
In the US, a school shooting in ’12 led to lots of “thoughts and prayers”, followed by conspiracy theorists stating that it was a false flag operation with crisis actors to sway public opinion towards banning guns. There are over 8,000 gun fatalities in the US PER YEAR.
How many people live in the UK? How many were run down by Islamic terrorists, or killed by bombs in the tube ( 7/7 massacre ), etc.
What is the population of the UK? I know it’s an embarrassing thing that you don’t know immediately, as I do, but your main mistake was in using numbers you have no grasp on now, or ever will.
The UK has about 65 million people. That is less 1 gun death for every 1 million people.
The USA has about 325 million people. That is about 25 gun deaths for every 1 million people…
Hmm. Now, I am obviously not as smart as you, but one of those numbers looks like it is 25 times higher than the other…
If you want to insinuate that America doesn’t also have its problems with people mowing down people in cars (Charlottesville), being blown up by bombs (OK City), then I don’t know what to tell you.
Your reasoning is faulty. Your logic is non-existent. Your bias is inherent.
Now that you’ve exposed your source as Huff & Puff post, please ask someone there about the deaths in the USA related to MS-13 and other gangs, and drug-related murders of drug dealers by drug buyers, drug buyers by drug dealers, etc. I’ll wait.
Meanwhile, read and learn from the FBI site, not huffpo.
How many gang-related deaths are occurring in London over each weekend or week period? MS-13 caused deaths in London, Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Dublin, Liverpool, etc.?
How many deaths occurred due to cars, trucsk operated by members of ISIS in London, Paris, other EU members etc.?
October 4, 2017 at 1:13 pm
bob says:
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Your bias is inherent, Doug, as you are clearly not researching violent crime.
As I already put on another post for you, but it went way down low and doesn’t look like it was put to respond to you, so now I’m putting your name to it:
your source sucks. Crime Research.org is literally a gun advocacy group. Any data from them will only be framed and reported if it helps their cause. I am willing to research country and state gun death rates before and after gun control measures if you are willing to be open-minded about what I find. These will be from the source numbers and I will provide sourcing, if it matters.
Otherwise, it would be a waste of my time.
October 4, 2017 at 4:00 pm
bob says:
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“your source sucks. Crime Research.org is literally a gun advocacy group”
Who else would publish such statistics? And as usual you attack the source and not the data. This is your flaw.
“Any data from them will only be framed and reported if it helps their cause. I am willing to research country and state gun death rates before and after gun control measures if you are willing to be open-minded about what I find.”
No. Gun death rates would obviously go down after a ban to some degree. I would not accept it, and I’ve already done this research myself, the fact that you are now saying you will in present day, as in you’ve never done it, look into gun death rates pre and post law, means you have openly admitted you haven’t done research before clinging to this cause like a zealot, the same thing you accuse agent of doing, and that is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
“These will be from the source numbers and I will provide sourcing, if it matters.
Otherwise, it would be a waste of my time.”
We’re going to have to agree to what parameters are acceptable, as the above are not. It is too simple minded and I don’t engage in simple minded drivel.
I may be giving you a hard time, but it is for good reason, and you would do well to realize the leftists here are similarly not digesting these numbers, and you would do well to listen to the other side. Polar is not an extremist. From what I’m reading he has normal degrees of insults and should be listened to.
So on a side note, I need to see you say you’ll debate people on the right, including Polar, at some point.
If I can’t see you actually engaging in point by point debate, there’s no point in it. You openly said you would disregard polar because of iffy stances he has, on all stances. You just showed you will also apply that to sources. That is not acceptable. What in the data was incorrect?
Go ahead and digest this one. The reason I find sources for this, is that you will likely find 3 countries that fit your narrative. How many countries with gun laws are there?
Tons. So I grab other’s studies and review their numbers, who have already compiled the data. It is then on you to show if the data is incorrect. All you would have to do is grab a number from the chart, and see if it doesn’t match up with .gov numbers. But you didn’t do that, did you?
You attacked the source.
And, more importantly, and reiterated, you don’t know them and by your own admission have not looked into them. You don’t know, and cannot call out what is wrong with my data other than the source.
I see a problem here, which people on the left call out as being something those on the right do. They say that the right call out fake news and rely on people just ignoring data. I’m smart enough to know it happens on both sides, and I correct as needed.
I’m really tired of this, as well as the down votes. What I say is really not that controversial, however, have you seen the leftist backlash on this site?
Why am I hostile? UW in the past few months has called me a rapist, said he wasn’t surprised my wife cheated, after he formerly called my wife an idiot for being with me, said I wanted Muslims dead, took joy in torturing people, Confused just implied I have the audacity to ignore violence and bad things when I’m compiling numbers, as if I am evil, and I have numerous times when saying for example that the government should not logically port marriage benefits to gays, due to there not being an equal need or exposure, been called homomphobic, sexist, racist, and a rapist.
Why don’t you tell me what the right here called you other than an idiot?
It should concern you that this backlash is here. I’m not the issue. I cause people to think, clearly, as here you are finally trying to look up numbers. It took you long enough. I’ve been doing it for years on this site, this gun argument this isn’t my first rodeo. I’ve given these numbers before.
October 3, 2017 at 4:21 pm
Mark B says:
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You fail to mention due to stricter gun laws knife deaths have increased. England and Wales had increased 11% on the previous year, while National Health Service data showed a 13% rise in hospital admissions for knife wounds. A Metropolitan police report released last month indicated that between 2014 and 2016 the number of children carrying knives in London schools rose by almost 50%, while the number of knife offences in London schools rose by 26%.
I am not sure when people will understand it is not the object that is the problem. Objects are not evil, they are amoral. People are the problem and anyone bent on doing evil will do it.
Show me again how easy it would be to stab and slash 600 people in a concert with a knife?
This line of thinking is nonsense. Of course there will always be people intent on doing harm, but the EASIEST way of doing it is almost always the gun besides someone. The worst part about this event, other than the tragic loss of life, is that this was a normal guy with NO signs that this could happen, and conservatives are STILL saying, “There is nothing we can do”
Everybody standing in the way of progress has blood of innocent lives on your hands.
Your criteria of ‘killing/ maiming 600 people’ is irrelevant and a Straw Man argument. The number need only be 1 person, not 600. A knife, gun, sword, bomb, rope, pipe, brick, etc. will harm / kill at least one person.
Q: why didn’t the perp do his business on the grounds of the concert, where SECURITY GUARDS were patrolling, and security checks were done at the gates? hint: see capitalized letters for a clue.
A: Because he was a coward who wanted to kill as many people as he could while staying “safe” himself, so he used a long-range weapon to achieve that.
Now if he only had a knife or rope or sword, he would have to “do his business on the grounds of the concert, where SECURITY GUARDS were patrolling, and security checks were done at the gates”
October 4, 2017 at 9:21 am
UW says:
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He didn’t “do his business” on the grounds of the concert, although mass murders by gun are essentially the NRA’s business. He murdered people from his hotel room. If you had hundreds of people returning fire it would have been much worse.
As usual you don’t know the basics, you admitted above you have not been following it. Stop posting.
My original point stands, the coward conservatives, scared of everything, and mentally inferior, won’t allow change, we have to just accept being the only industrial nation with constant mass murder by gun.
October 4, 2017 at 3:40 pm
Doug Fisher says:
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bob,
multiple groups share that sentiment, unfortunately. violent protest is not a right vs. left issue, it is an issue of small minded people.
Peaceful, consistent protests that disrupt business as usual are the most effective ways to change society, as shown by the Civil Rights marchers and protestors.
As per his assertions that conservatives are mentally inferior, it does have scientific backing. You will dispute the research and outrightly claim it as false and run straight to the nearest source to claim bias and so on, but there have been studies that show that those who are conservative have lower cognitive ability, on average.
October 6, 2017 at 3:53 pm
UW says:
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That’s true, Doug. There is also considerable evidence that they are generally significantly more afraid, hence their strong support for authoritarianism and dislike of any groups of “others.” The book “Conservatives Without Conscious,” by John W Dean has a few chapters on much of the work covering studies looking into this, which are pretty fascinating.
October 3, 2017 at 7:26 pm
PolarBeaRepeal says:
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Liberals do not understand small govt and freedom becuse they are brainwashed into thinking that’s what’s best for them.
Gun laws simply shift the means of murder to knives, bombs, cars, trucks, pressure cooker bombs, beheadings, etc.
As far as the comment about knives being less deadly than a gun, I’d rather have a gun to DEFEND myself against a person ILLEGALLY possessing a gun than use a knife for self-defense. THAT may confuse the liberals more than anything else written here today.
Weird that giving up Your gun is the only Freedom you’re not willing to part with, but when it comes to searches and having your person and properties searched at any given time, you are okay with it. Your definition of small government is pretty strange.
Nope. Straw Man argument. I never wrote that I’d give up my liberty. If I were frisked at a checkpoint or airport terminal, that doesn’t yield any liberties. As Liberals like to claim in regard to ACA, the pursuit of LIFE is aided by added security measures.
The only people who fear loss of liberty are those who are carrying drugs and other illegal substances into concert arenas, etc. They believe they have the RIGHT and are ENTITLED to violate federal drug laws in the ‘pursuit of liberty and happiness’ and don’t see the contradiction therein regarding the rights of others to a ‘pot-smoke- free zone’, etc.
October 4, 2017 at 4:13 pm
LOL! says:
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Oh, PolarTroll
Oh, PolarTroll
How do you write premium when you are on IJ all day?
Would this terrorist been able to kill 58 and injure 500+ more with a knife? Ever heard the expression, “he brought a knife to a gun fight”? Ever seen Indiana Jones when Indy shoots the sword fighter? I’ll take my chances with the knife.
There was nothing that could of been done to prevent this. Evil will do what evil does. Everyone is crying for more controls which I am not entirely against but ultimately if that is what everyone wants we are going to become a police state with check points everywhere and I mean everywhere. We will be chipping and scanning and searching everyone to boot. It’s like watching a Sci Fi movie.
With our current laws in place? But we can definitely do something in the future to prevent this from happening again. Australia banned semi-auto and full auto weapons by their CONSERVATIVES and haven’t had a massacre in 22 years. We get them yearly now, and AVERAGE 1 shooting event per day with at least 4 victims. Unacceptable, but apparently “UNPREVENTABLE!!”
That is exactly why the UK, Spain, Germany, Scandinavian countries, South Korea, Australia, etc. are all run by despots who overthrew their unarmed citizens… Oh wait…
That is by far the dumbest argument the NRA pushes to their members.
No kidding, Doug. Like a Walmart artillery is going to stand up to that of the US Armed Forces. Give me a break. Someone has been watching too many Chuck Norris movies. I don’t see too many privately owned tanks, missiles, air craft carriers, the list goes on. Yogi and his local militia don’t stand a chance. They could even have Patrick Swayze, Charlie Sheen, C. Thomas Howell, Lea Thompson, and Jennifer Grey and still not stand a chance. WOLVERINES!!!!
October 4, 2017 at 7:43 am
PolarBeaRepeal says:
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Then you should move to one of those countries. elt us know how your choices are in the one you choose, or several if you leave the country you first chose because of loss of liberty and safety from violent criminals or… the govt.
Let’s get to the real threat.. I need my guns and I don’t want anyone coming to take them away or restricting my access to purchase new ones. We all need them. Stack them up. Get as many as you can. The real enemy is coming… ZOMBIES!!!!
October 3, 2017 at 8:13 pm
Mark B says:
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Define massacre:
Childers Palace Backpackers Hostel fire 23 June 2000 Childers, Queensland 15 unknown Arson attack by Robert Paul Long, which killed 15 international backpackers
Monash University Shooting 21 October 2002 Melbourne, Victoria 2 5 A mass shooting and spree killing by Huan Yun Xiang, a student at Monash University, shot dead 2 students and injured 5 others, attack was stopped by faculty.
Churchill Fire 7 February 2009 Churchill, Victoria 10 unknown Arson attack by Brendan Sokaluk that killed 10 people, during the Black Saturday bushfires period
Lin family murders 18 July 2009 North Epping, New South Wales 5 unknown Blunt instrument attack that killed 5 members of the Lin family
2011 Hectorville siege 29 April 2011 Hectorville, South Australia 3 3 Mass shooting, siege and spree killing that took place on 29 April 2011, in Hectorville, South Australia. It began after a 39-year-old male, Donato Anthony Corbo, shot four people on a neighbouring property (three of whom died), and also wounded two police officers, before being arrested by Special Operations police after an eight-hour siege.[10]
Quakers Hill nursing home fire 18 November 2011 Sydney, NSW 11 Arson attack by Roger Kingsley Dean, a nurse, which killed 11 people
Hunt family murders 9 September 2014 Lockhart, New South Wales 5 0 A Mass shooting and Familicide by Geoff Hunt who killed his wife and three children before turning the gun on himself
Sydney Siege 15 – 16 December 2014 Sydney, NSW 3 4 Siege. A lone gunman, Man Haron Monis, held hostage ten customers and eight employees of a Lindt chocolate café located at Martin Place in Sydney, Australia. The NSW Special Tactics Force shot Monis dead, after he executed a hostage. In the melee five others were shot by Police fire, causing accidental death to one of them.
Cairns child killings 19 December 2014 Cairns, Queensland 8 1 (self-inflicted by perpetrator) Stabbing attack. 8 children aged 18 months to 15 years killed. Thirty-seven-year-old woman also found injured. The woman, Raina Mersane Ina Thaiday, was later charged with the murder of the children, 7 of whom were hers, plus her niece.[11]
Port Lincoln Wharf murder–suicide 4 January 2016 Port Lincoln, South Australia 3 0 Shooting drowning murder–suicide. Damien Little drove the family station wagon with his two sons (toddler and infant) off the wharf. A rifle had been found in the car and an autopsy “revealed they had all been shot before” the car entered the water.
2016 Home Hill stabbings 23 August 2016 Home Hill, Queensland 2 1 Stabbing. French national, Smail Ayad, stabbed Mia Ayliffe-Chung, Hostel caretaker Grant Schultz, and Ian Jackson when he intervened, at a back packer’s hostel in Home Hill, Queensland. Ayliffe-Chung died at the scene, Jackson died five days later in hospital. Schultz was stabbed in the leg.[12]
Sydney family gassed 17 October 2016 Sydney, New South Wales 4 0 Gassing murder–suicide. Fernando Manrique (father), Maria Lutz (mother) and their two children aged 10 and 11 (son and daughter respectively), were all found gassed to death in their home. The father had apparently assembled and fixed pipe work into the roof and ceilings. The pipe work was then connected to gas bottles. The family had suffocated over night while they slept. It was said their pet dog was found dead with them.
2017 Melbourne car attack 20 January 2017 Melbourne, Victoria 6 30 Vehicular attack. Dimitrious Gargasoulas drove a Holden Commodore into Bourke St Mall, resulting in the deaths of 6 people and injuring 30+ others.
Looks like a terrible list, and then you see that covers 17 years and a single year in America is far, far worse for just gun violence. There are already 14 mass shootings/killings in America this year so far.
Whether the guns were purchased legally or illegally, groups of people are always targets for people who have a vendetta against the world. We have seen cars running through crowded streets, knife attacks, and guns are just one tool in the box of a person looking to do some damage.
Like most attackers, this guy was a solitary figure, with limited social interaction and no family living close by. Most attackers tend to also have a history of mental disorders, which Stephen Paddock did not as far as we know. Stephen also was in his 60’s which also does not fit the typically shooter. Most shooters are male’s in their 20’s-30’s. Unlike many shooters, Stephen seemed to have a more detailed plan and preferred really long-range shooting. (Don’t you think a psychopath would want to see his carnage up close?) We do know he was an avid gambler, and therein lies the possibility that perhaps he was motivated by fear by an unknown source to commit this crime instead of a desire for carnage.
Fun Fact: The gun industry has had a major decline in sales since Trump has come into office, because most people only buy guns when they feel the legislation is taking them away or making them illegal, this is going to actually be great for sales if the government starts looking at restricting firearms again. Double-motive for a catastrophic event like this.
Nope. People bought guns when they thought their rights were soon going to be restricted. Now that they have them, they need not buy more; how many guns do you need to defend yourself against MS-13, or … the government in some Communist leaning nations? Answer; one or two.
This is simply a matter of ‘market saturation’; e.g. I buy a new car, and need not buy another because I only need one.
Guns have saturated the market before, and each time it seems they can’t possibly sell more firearms, then a catastrophic shooting happens, and they hit a new record high in sales. Strange pattern.
“Reflecting lower demand for guns, Sturm Ruger & Company on Thursday reported revenue for the quarter ending on July n1 down 22% at $132 million. The company said the drop was due to unusually strong demand last year related to the Nov. 8 election…
During the second quarter, shops bought fewer guns as they worked through existing inventory, and revenues also fell as other manufactures offered rebates, Sturm Ruger said.
Also on Thursday, sporting goods retailer Cabela’s posted a 4.2% decrease in quarterly revenue. ‘Since the fall election, we have continued to see a slowdown in firearms and shooting related catagories,’ Cabela’s Chief Executive Tommy Millner said in a statement.
Millner also pointed out that the quarter came a year after a mass shooting at a nightclub in Orlando, Florida, which led to an increase in gun sales due to worries that about(sic) potential new gun restrictions.”
Psst; quarterly revenue is impacted by COST of guns bought, which rises with inflation. Seek out # of guns bought. Much easier to compare that as it requires no inflation adjustment.
Then, compare those #s to US population.
The Entertainment industry can create safer events with law enforcement officials, especially if they work together. Major event organisers should wrk together and share security procedures to utilise the best and continually improve. Never Fear the criminals win.
Las Vegas is under fire now since entertainment is their main industry there. I understand the major hotels are already installing metal detectors. Hey, the TSA may be able to get some more part time jobs.
This is an incredibly horrible tragedy, which may have been prevented, or at least, reduced. The problem with second-guessing is that those intent on doing evil will find new ways to do so if blocked in some manner.
Gun control proposed by liberal politicians, usually before the bodies of those killed are cold, is NOT the solution. The weapon used was illegal, and everyone who understands current gun laws knows this fact.
People who are high risk individuals should lose some of their rights for the safety of others. This may not have worked in this case as there were no signs – per reports I’ve read to date – that Paddock was a high risk.
Concert halls, stadiums, hotels, and other venues where people congregate in high numbers, should increase their security measures / procedures through current technology monitoring of clients and patrons. This too may not have prevented this tragedy, but it would make it more difficult for the perpetrator to bring weapons along.
Law enforcement agencies, including ICE, need more funding to be pro-active, and in the case of ICE, to be reactive in tracking down MS-13 members, drug smugglers, coyotes, etc. This too won’t ELIMINATE (mass) murders, robberies, rapes, and other types of violent assault, but it will reduce the frequency greatly.
Recidivism studies need to be heeded by parole court justices/ administrators. Funding of such studies, and monitoring of those who are high risks (e.g. estranged spouses who show high risk tendencies in spousal abuse cases) needs to be increased.
Early reports by the ‘authorities’ (FBI?) indicate the perp had no ties to terrorist organizations, yet ISIS claimed he was one of their ‘soldiers’. ISIS never claims responsibility unless they can prove it, or it is clearly the case. How this discrepancy is resolved will be interesting to watch. I think ISIS is lying, but why did they change their posture in this case? I think it is a means of recruitment because they realize they are losing the battle now that TrumPresident has given the military more authority and ‘tools’ to track them down and eliminate them. (I’m still not getting tired of winning.)
This is a despicable post, even for you, Yogi. Yeesh. I feel skeevy just reading it.
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That has literally never happened before. To think that anyone on here cares enough to create fake accounts to downvote posters on a meaningless small potatoes forum is so laughable to me.
Why would anyone care to do this? WHat would it prove? Personally, I read “hidden” posts more than non-hidden ones, just to see what they said to be so detested that people couldn’t help but down-vote it.
Your attitude and content are a cancer to this website.
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That I was not aware of, but he wavers in between two statements consistently:
“Yay! IJ has banished the trolls and they have solved the BOT problem. Drinking Libitteral tears now!”
to
“All you downvoters are obviously BOTs and people going to coffee shops with the express purpose of winning internet political arguments!”
It can’t be both. Could it possibly be instead that the majority of people do not like his posts and believe his musings to be of low or zero worth?
Because in my 6 months or so here, I cannot say I have seen him post more than 4 or 5 worthwhile, non-insane sentences that weren’t full of spite, baiting, paranoia, conspiracies, latent racism or bigotry, and outright lies (whether he knows they are or not is immaterial to the fact).
When he is called out, he disappears or says stupid things like “rabbit hole!” or other inanities and pivots to his next point which is immediately disputed with evidence, ad nauseum.
Why would anyone engage in discourse with him?
That’s a pretty good job of sidestepping everything I addressed.
What’s your argument? I should disregard everything he says?
I’ve openly called out some of his attitudes, however, some, is not synonymous with all, and using some to discount all his commentary is inhumane, and I would argue, the OPPOSITE of liberal. Right now I’m talking about the true liberalism, which seems to have died. I’m not talking politics.
I have seen many here, mostly the leftists, (a difference to democrats) openly ok with disregarding ALL arguments from people they don’t like.
Do you perceive this promotes a level of open information and the ability to find facts from any avenue and become wiser?
Because I certainly don’t.
That sounds off topic, but I just addressed what you just did, and why it isn’t ok.
@bob; Doug is living in an alternate universe, hence: ‘this has never happened before…’.
Let’s give him some credit. He honestly didn’t know, I believe him.
But yeah, this conversation has turned very nutty.
What the F are wifi zones? And now you redefine bots to a definition that makes no sense when compared to how you’ve used it for a year. You also need to have your supposed IT guy explain the absolute basics about IP addresses. Damn you truly know nothing.
Why aren’t there hundreds of votes anymore? Hmm maybe in part because 70% of the posters left after Yogi and Agent started getting people banned and started flaming every single thread all day, 5 days a week, and Andrew did nothing to them. Most stories get no comments and few get any significant amount. The 3 imbeciles have forced a ton of people to leave. It’s just a site to come look at the ignorant, science denying, reality denying, racist trash now, kind of like a zoo.
Yogtard claimed the pics and video of Trump looking at the eclipse were photoshopped – it’s a comedy site now.
Only a few more downvotes needed to censor my posts. Go for it! Get out your coffee house rewards card and sit around long enough to down vote via their WIFI and Tor accounts.
there are NO BOTS on this site. The site used to allow multiple votes from the same IP address, but no longer does. Now when something is hidden, it’s legitimately because the majority of people don’t like the post.
I use BOTS now in the sense of multiple IDs. Sorry for the confusion due to my laziness in descriptive terms.
Re-posted: Coming from you, I take it as a badge of honor, an award, a compliment in reverse, etc.
This is a tragic, horrible and terrifying event. I do not know how something like this can be prevented. I also agree with Polarbear and his general theory. Our country needs to tighten up on its controls. I don’t see where he blames the Mexicans for this, nor was this deranged person an illegal immigrant. But we should tighten up our borders for illegals as there are terrorists entering our country. We should tighten up procedures and rights for gun ownership and the types of guns available. A person with mental health issues should not have guns. ISIS claims responsibility for just about every tragedy, which probably is either correct in some instances and a recruiting/advertising tool in others.
But how can anyone stop what happened here? A seemingly normal guy just snapped. If he attended the concert, they would have caught him at the metal detectors. But he didn’t. He booked a room overlooking the event, broke the window and took aim. How could Mandalay Bay know? I doubt he checked in carrying his weapons. Maybe better coordinated lists of who owns what guns could be an indicator of a nut job ready to go off, or it could be an indicator of a gun collector.
Jack; half of what Kim Jong UW writes in reply to my posts is simply trolling. Laugh at the other half as he doesn’t stay on topic in an attempt to take these discussions into rabbit holes.
More insults from the Imbecile In Chief. No content, nothing but incorrect information and not a single reality-based thought in his head. A total waste of a life.
The Wynne Hotel chain is now requiring a check-in process where bags are subject to search or scanning on a conveyor belt similar to TSA screening. Hooray for that! Whenever someone is entering a public arena / domicile/ building where he/ she can potentially cause mayhem, there is great public support for such searches / restrictions on liberty.
Expect checkpoints and searches to become the norm more often in all facets of life, then.
Personally, I would rather gun ownership be banned/heavily curtailed before having my person or belongings searched for arbitrary reasons.
The USA’s fanaticism on owning instruments of death and willingly giving up their privacy is insane to me. Absolutely insane.
If you carry legal things, like guns, you should have NO CONCERNS about your bags being searched. OTOH, if you’re carrying forbidden items, don’t check into a hotel, onto a plane, bus, cruise ship or elevator.
If you want less personal liberties, move to Cuba, Venezuela, Russia, Iran, Syria, NK, Iraq, etc.
That is the equivalent of saying, “if you aren’t breaking the law, then you have nothing to fear”
Hard pass on having big brother be a bigger part of my life then needs to be.
Deplorable defending MS-13 members by attacking me for things I never wrote.
The Mayor of (Sanctuary City) Philadelphia referred to this ghastly mass murder as “The New Normal.”
No doubt that is an accurate statement… Unless something is done to prevent it from happening again.
Since nobody on the right wants to talk about how to fix this problem, it will never stop. We can decide enough is enough, or settle in for a lot more Las Vegas, Aurora, Sandy Hook, Fort Hood, Orlando incidences and so on.
Some countries have had terrible shootings like this happen, and then they take steps to prevent them from happening again. Crazy, I know.
Why America is opposed to progress and the prevention of thousands of lives lost annually is beyond me.
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Seems to me we have a very serious mental health issue in this country but want to keep blaming the problem on guns. I think we would see these terrible crimes decrease if we had institutions for those that aren’t mentally stable enough to live in society. Clearly you have mental issues if you are able to go out in the world and just start killing innocent people.
Unfortunately, the Republicans have consistently cut funding for these institutions.
You need a history lesson, sonny. Liberals allowed mental institutions to release many of their patients in the 1970s and 1980s on the hypothesis that living outside those institutions would help heal them. It did and didn’t work, and when it failed miserably, murders happened. We also got many other violent crimes from those mental patients who shouldn’t have been released.
Those funding cuts are NOT impacting the ability of the existing institutions; it merely reduces waste that was being perpetuated by experiments, etc., that didn’t yield any useful knowledge.
This is beyond inept, and is basically virtue signaling. We get it. You love people. Conservatives are paranoid gun wielding evil people who don’t. The youth has such a superiority complex these days…Unbelievable the ego you have.
Back on topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAXxQBIfH7I
This does a very good job going over why gun control as the left present it is just bull.
htt p://www.bradycampaign.org/sites/default/files/GunDeathandInjuryStatSheet3YearAverageFINAL.pdf
This shows that the vast majority of gun deaths are suicides. Other injuries are out of control, so it stands to reason some laws regarding proper storage might be an issue.
ht tp://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
Regarding mass shootings:
Several of these years see deaths in the single digits. Out of 11,000 some deaths, with the vast majority of these hand gun deaths, the narrative of banning some of the bad guns is absurd. The narrative of banning hand guns is more absurd. It is not about paranoia, as Polar has said so well, body guards and police are armed for a reason, defense is needed.
ht tp://www.nleomf.org/facts/enforcement/
htt ps://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/one-three-americans-own-guns-culture-factor-study-finds-n384031
And more on that, there are about 100,000,000 gun owners roughly. I’ve given these numbers before. Police nationwide there are 900,000 and they are not all armed with firearms. While we don’t have good numbers for the deaths from police, and here I take a liberal source on purpose yet again:
ht tp://www.newsweek.com/how-many-americans-do-cops-kill-each-year-480712
This one claims at least what turns out to be 866 a year. What do you notice? Let’s say there are a million armed cops, close to all of them are armed in other words. This means that cops are not far off from being 100 times more deadly than your standard gun owner. I’ll round up to 1 million cops. Multiply by 100 to get to 100 million, they would kill 86,600 per year vs 11,000 on the other end.
If however, as is more likely, only half are armed, we have 11,000 vs 173,200, and again, to make the numbers easy I rounded up by 10%, so these numbers are actually higher.
While I agree, we have a serious over policing problem in the U.S. (not just on the black side, on both, which is why I don’t like black lives matters) I do not think it would be a good idea in any world to disarm police. Similarly, I do not believe in any world it makes sense to disarm gun owners, especially due to mass shooting gun violence that amounts to less than 1% of all gun deaths, and bring that up every time tp push a narrative. I also think that claiming it is exploding out of control (mass shootings) is wildly disingenuous and is contrary to the evidence. You don’t care about actual gun deaths. You care about the narrative, social justice warrior. You’re not as a virtuous of a person as you believe.
Now I’m going to wait for UW to mock my sources with the rest of you, ignore my data and methodology, and start on the we are so much better than you train.
while i’m here – from your first link:
18,783 deaths from suicide
+ 3,627 survive suicide
——-
22,410 suicide gun stuffs
VS.
11,583 murders (not including police or accidental shooting)
+ 51,249 survive attack (again, no police or accidentals)
——–
62,832 total
22,000 VS 62,000 and yet you have the audacity to say “banning some of the bad guns is absurd” because you’re only looking at the death-only numbers.
people who get shot and survive matter in this discussion too, buddy, not just those who died from gun violence.
A:
Suicides I don’t really even count. I would argue it would be more inhumane for them to attempt by other means, I don’t get your point here.
B:
I responded to:
“No doubt that is an accurate statement… Unless something is done to prevent it from happening again.
Since nobody on the right wants to talk about how to fix this problem, it will never stop. We can decide enough is enough, or settle in for a lot more Las Vegas, Aurora, Sandy Hook, Fort Hood, Orlando incidences and so on.
Some countries have had terrible shootings like this happen, and then they take steps to prevent them from happening again. Crazy, I know.
Why America is opposed to progress and the prevention of thousands of lives lost annually is beyond me.”
In terms of deaths, and yet, I still said it seems a reasonable case could be made for storage of guns and accidental injuries, which are unreasonably high. I did not discount injuries, I simply didn’t go over them. To criticize me for what I said by what I didn’t, is insane confused. You got your aha didn’t you, idiot? My audacity? The audacity is in yours to come after me on that basis as if I do not care about society, and as I have said numerous times THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. An apology is demanded immediately. Debate like this is not ok.
As for the police numbers: They still work. I included only homicides on both. Should I include injuries on that end too? The point of death to death cops vs people, is that people are literally greater than a hundred times safer with guns. I will then ask you the same question, as the same logic applies, even including injuries from guns: SHOULD WE DISARM COPS? And if we should disarm citizens based on injuries, why? SHOW YOUR WORK. Are you claiming that citizens do not come across the need for use of weapons but police do? Why? SHOW YOUR WORK. You are an idiot, and I’m tired of your social justice arguments, and cliché aha moments.
I don’t work like this. If you want to debate me, it is NOT acceptable to say “hey, you don’t think these lives matter buddy?” that MANDATES ME to say SCREW YOU.
When I show someone is wrong on data, and is pointing to an epidemic, after they questioned the morality of everyone but themselves, it makes sense for me to take this style. For you IT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT.
Retract the statement, and we can continue on injury, after you make the terms. Again, I just said YOU MAKE THE TERMS so I am not dominating you, which I know your social justice side will take that avenue of defense next, by saying YOU WILL NOT START WITH DEGRADING CRAP WITH ME. If you want to debate at this point we will do numbers. Do you have a problem with this?
Why would I have an issue discussing numbers with you? That’s exactly what I posted!
I know what you were responding to, but clearly you don’t know what I was. You said “Several of these years see deaths in the single digits. Out of 11,000 some deaths, with the vast majority of these hand gun deaths, the narrative of banning some of the bad guns is absurd.”
So the narrative of banning some bad guns is absurd because the vast majority of hand gun deaths in the years you’re debating were suicides (you wrote this as one complete sentence, meaning the two parts of the sentence are definitely related to each other).
So you do agree we should include all gun incidents (death & injuries) when discussing numbers to base our narrative of gun control off of, right? Because that’s not what you said the first time around.
And no dude, I don’t want to take guns away from cops or from the general population as an entire group. I never said or implied that. Let me make this clear – I am for gun control, but I’m not saying we should take away every single gun from everyone.
FYI – the paragraph you quoted as the one you were responding to didn’t mention death at all!
YOU threw that term in your reply and focused your response to be specific about deaths.
Obviously there were injuries in all those other events Doug posted, but you decided to respond to just the deaths in those events and not the injuries too
I should also add, I included in another post the numbers regarding violence in countries post passing gun laws.
The actual person here who had audacity, is you. Gun deaths happened and are bad m’kay?
So the numbers you say I didn’t direct, I DID just not the way you wanted and not in the same post. I included numbers on what happened when gun laws were put in place. I HAVE numerous times in the past went over this in terms of what guns do, like perchance help people defend themselves against rape, and even in the post you got ticked about, I said a few things that implied I was already looking at violence such as:
“Other injuries are out of control, so it stands to reason some laws regarding proper storage might be an issue” emphasis on OTHER INJURIES.
I also said:
“It is not about paranoia, as Polar has said so well, body guards and police are armed for a reason, defense is needed.”
In what percent of violent crime is someone DEFENDING with a gun? What I am also eluding to is that same aspect of defending against violence with a gun, as in, some degree of violence will get worse without guns. So I did cover a bit of violent crime on here, in ways you certainly did not. Were you just not caring about these people? Can I now mock your morality?
Your inept commentary includes no links, other than trying to manipulate my own, to try and say what I left out with aha moments.
I don’t have time for idiots Confused, I didn’t even bother reading your other comments because this is absurd. If you don’t see the usefulness in my comments, and do from people like Doug, the issue here is beyond my ability to explain away.
You need to analyze that attitude of aha, cliché lines, and how dare you not care about people! It’s absurd, and I don’t tolerate it.
From anyone, but your side does it the most.
Suicides harm only 1 person. I thought the concern of Liberals was mass murder, not suicides?
PS suicides are committed by means other than guns; e.g. Robin Williams hung himself. Take away guns and suicides will still occur, albeit by different means.
“I didn’t even bother reading your other comments”
Yet you continue to ask me questions! Excellent trolling. You actually had me for ~5 posts thinking we were having a two-way conversation!
Of course he did, Confused, that was the best way to look right regardless of reality.
He doesn’t use garbage, far right-wing sources, in fact he rarely looks at them [links to Prager U video]. Lol
where did Doug say he wants to take everyone’s guns away? gun CONTROL is not the same as prohibition. great job arguing a point he never made.
Ok I’m sick of you and your kind being disingenuous.
It is precisely what Doug wants. See his arguments for countries that disarmed their citizens.
And regardless of this I want to hear a reasonable solution which would decrease deaths without limiting self defense of normal people.
Go ahead. I’ll wait.
Background checks including mental health? In these bills we have seen that age counts. As many have gone over, some odd things come with age, but they are not mentally unstable owning a gun. What mental aspects are suitable? Are we going to go back to when the government said what lifestyles and thoughts were ok? Will we monitor facebook for aggressive comments? That is where that obviously will go, and we will have little if any affect as we go there. This is not the way we want to go. And I will ask you if it would be ok if we mandated mental health checks for Muslims entering the country, and could monitor their mosques as well. Would you be ok with this? But Confused! Orlando! But Confused, people died! You’re an idiot! It boggles my mind. Let’s target anyone who owns a gun with government sponsored mental health checks, great idea.
Rather than telling me I’m being absurd for saying non specific action to stop gun violence repeatedly berating gun owners and the NRA and anyone who supports gun ownership is immoral, why don’t you do something productive? I’m tired of your cliché social justice I am so great lines. We get it, you think I’m evil and a hypocrite. ADD SOMETHING TO THE DEBATE.
You haven’t.
He’s right, you’re wrong.
The countries that have “disarmed” their populace still allow for gun ownership, but it is harder to buy a gun in those countries than to order a pair of contact lenses.
Take Japan for example:
1.Take all day class
2.Take written test
3. Take mental health exam
4. Background check covers any prior violent crimes, as well as affiliations with any known violent parties.
5. Must report location of firearm in house to police. Must keep ammunition and firearm separate and in different locked cases.
In America:
1. Go to gun show with money or contact private party on Craigslist.
2. Hand owner money.
3. Own gun.
There seriously isn’t a problem with this?
‘Take guns away’ is not the same as gun control legislation.
Are you going to continue moving from one issue to another when you’ve been boxed in with facts?
I’ve only argued for gun CONTROL. Did I ever post that we should take everyone’s guns away? Cite it! READY….STEADY…GO!
Define CONTROL, and explain why Chicago’s Gun CONTROL laws have not reduced GUN VIOLENCE / DEATHS via murders of a gang-on-gang or a gang-vs-innocent nature.
OK Confused I will bite what gun control would you propose that would virtually guarantee that we not have another Las Vegas or Sandy Hook incident?
Please do not point to the weapon used as there are numerous weapons other than scary black rifles that have caused significant carnage. You need look no further back in history for the proof of this than the Texas Tower shooter, his weapons of choice were:
Remington 700 ADL
M1 Carbine
Sears Model 60 Shot Gun
Smith and Wesson model 19 revolver
Luger P08 pistol
Galesi-Brescia pistol
and finally a knife
With these weapons he murdered 18 innocents and wounded another 31.
The Oklahoma City Bombers
Weapons
U Haul truck
Ammonium nitrate and Nitromethane
Glock 21-not used
168 murdered
680 or possibly more injured
Weapons are not evil people are. Why the uptick in violence in our society of this type I am not certain, but I do know from where I sit, it tends to correlate to a societal shift away from fundamental moral principles.
Nothing will be done without gun laws. Conservatives and the NRA won’t allow that. We have to just accept that for scared people to have their guns we are going to have constant, worsening mass shootings.
The claims that ISIS doesn’t make false claims was pushed by InfoWars and Alex Jones, right before saying he had Antifa literature and that it was probably a setup and he was a patsy. Consider that when you see people making these claims, and remember where these “moderates” get their information.
ISIS claimed that they shot down a US warplane in Syria when none had been shot down, that they assassinated a US officer in Turkey when they didn’t, and claimed 2 other attacks this year they were not responsible for, most prominently in Manilla. Yogi doesn’t know what he’s talking about. The truth is that ISIS has been decimated starting in early 2015,and have made a lot of false claims on an attempt to seem more relevant than they are. Of course some know-nothing morons say Trump has wiped them out, right after making absolutely false statements that your cannot make with even a basic understanding of ISIS.
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So because laws weren’t broken by the perp, we should definitely not create new laws to prevent the same situation from happening.
Gotcha.
Yogi is legitimately saying there is no way to stop these mass murders from happening. America is apparently less competent than the UK, Australia, Spain, France, Denmark, etc. etc etc etc Who all have high gun ownership but due to a ton of extremely reasonable gun ownership laws and regulations have shooting death rates a FRACTION of what America has.
You are pathetic to believe that it can’t be done in America.
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LOL!
What a snowflake.
Apparently, US police are so incompetent, they can’t stop criminals whereas every other first-world country that has tried has succeeded.
Report this: Yogi believes that American police are incompetent.
Nuclear weapons don’t kill people; people do, so let North Korea have nuclear weapons, right Yogtard?
UW:
REPORTED!! Wahhhhhh!
Doug Fisher, this will go on your permanent record; your future may be compromised.
And yes, Yogi and one other commenter truly believe that others spend the time and effort setting up multiple accounts and using multiple computers in order to down-vote them and comment. It’s a big sad, frankly.
Please feel free to report me as well, Yogi.
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“As far as the rest of your post goes; REPORTED.”
What a snowflake.
Somebody get Polar a wahhhhmburger and some french cries!
No laws were broken by the guy who murdered 60 people – Yogi
Yeah, genius that’s the point
I’m on your side Polar, but I understand he had a WWII machine gun, which is illegal. The guy was evil. I’m tired of hearing people refer to him as sick. He is evil.
Thanks. That’s news to me…. didn’t follow the gun details after the first report I heard. He did break laws regarding murder, of course, but that’s not what I originally meant.
OF note: there are circumstances under which machine guns can be owned by individuals.
Re-posted:
No laws were broken by the perp…. anyone who argues now for gun control is arguing for innocent people to lose the right to defen themselves.
Why don’t politicians fear their bodyguards carrying guns? Libitterals have now been boxed into a corner by their stupid, illogical motives to control citizens.
In the UK, a school shooting in ’96 led to tightened gun-ownership restrictions and a handgun ban that has almost eliminated murders by guns entirely. A report last year stated that there are about 56 deaths by gun in the UK PER YEAR.
In the US, a school shooting in ’12 led to lots of “thoughts and prayers”, followed by conspiracy theorists stating that it was a false flag operation with crisis actors to sway public opinion towards banning guns. There are over 8,000 gun fatalities in the US PER YEAR.
But by all means, gun control doesn’t work…
How many people live in the UK? How many were run down by Islamic terrorists, or killed by bombs in the tube ( 7/7 massacre ), etc.
What is the population of the UK? I know it’s an embarrassing thing that you don’t know immediately, as I do, but your main mistake was in using numbers you have no grasp on now, or ever will.
Psst; the UK isn’t the same thing as Great Britain. Just a helpful hint when you do an internet search for population stats.
The UK has about 65 million people. That is less 1 gun death for every 1 million people.
The USA has about 325 million people. That is about 25 gun deaths for every 1 million people…
Hmm. Now, I am obviously not as smart as you, but one of those numbers looks like it is 25 times higher than the other…
If you want to insinuate that America doesn’t also have its problems with people mowing down people in cars (Charlottesville), being blown up by bombs (OK City), then I don’t know what to tell you.
Your reasoning is faulty. Your logic is non-existent. Your bias is inherent.
Stop posting.
Now that you’ve exposed your source as Huff & Puff post, please ask someone there about the deaths in the USA related to MS-13 and other gangs, and drug-related murders of drug dealers by drug buyers, drug buyers by drug dealers, etc. I’ll wait.
Meanwhile, read and learn from the FBI site, not huffpo.
Psst; maybe the FBI has murders by US city; e.g. Chicago, Baltimore and St. Louis? Try finding that and report back, pronto. Ready, steady, … GO!
Meanwhile, I have IMPORTANT things to do…
LOL
Attack the (wrong) source, don’t comment on the data.
You talk about people going down rabbit holes…
“Now that you’ve answered my question and proved I’m wrong, let me bring up some new points and demand you prove them too” -PolarBeaRepeal
Oh, I do. But I have too much fun poking holes in his toilet paper-thin assertions and assumptions.
It is soothing to the soul, you know? :P
True, but soeey, Yogi’s makeup makes him anti-toilet paper, you’ve been reported.
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Your bias is inherent, Doug, as you are clearly not researching violent crime.
As I already put on another post for you, but it went way down low and doesn’t look like it was put to respond to you, so now I’m putting your name to it:
https://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/
Research more.
your source sucks. Crime Research.org is literally a gun advocacy group. Any data from them will only be framed and reported if it helps their cause. I am willing to research country and state gun death rates before and after gun control measures if you are willing to be open-minded about what I find. These will be from the source numbers and I will provide sourcing, if it matters.
Otherwise, it would be a waste of my time.
“your source sucks. Crime Research.org is literally a gun advocacy group”
Who else would publish such statistics? And as usual you attack the source and not the data. This is your flaw.
“Any data from them will only be framed and reported if it helps their cause. I am willing to research country and state gun death rates before and after gun control measures if you are willing to be open-minded about what I find.”
No. Gun death rates would obviously go down after a ban to some degree. I would not accept it, and I’ve already done this research myself, the fact that you are now saying you will in present day, as in you’ve never done it, look into gun death rates pre and post law, means you have openly admitted you haven’t done research before clinging to this cause like a zealot, the same thing you accuse agent of doing, and that is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
“These will be from the source numbers and I will provide sourcing, if it matters.
Otherwise, it would be a waste of my time.”
We’re going to have to agree to what parameters are acceptable, as the above are not. It is too simple minded and I don’t engage in simple minded drivel.
I may be giving you a hard time, but it is for good reason, and you would do well to realize the leftists here are similarly not digesting these numbers, and you would do well to listen to the other side. Polar is not an extremist. From what I’m reading he has normal degrees of insults and should be listened to.
So on a side note, I need to see you say you’ll debate people on the right, including Polar, at some point.
If I can’t see you actually engaging in point by point debate, there’s no point in it. You openly said you would disregard polar because of iffy stances he has, on all stances. You just showed you will also apply that to sources. That is not acceptable. What in the data was incorrect?
http://people.howstuffworks.com/strict-gun-laws-less-crime1.htm
Go ahead and digest this one. The reason I find sources for this, is that you will likely find 3 countries that fit your narrative. How many countries with gun laws are there?
Tons. So I grab other’s studies and review their numbers, who have already compiled the data. It is then on you to show if the data is incorrect. All you would have to do is grab a number from the chart, and see if it doesn’t match up with .gov numbers. But you didn’t do that, did you?
You attacked the source.
And, more importantly, and reiterated, you don’t know them and by your own admission have not looked into them. You don’t know, and cannot call out what is wrong with my data other than the source.
I see a problem here, which people on the left call out as being something those on the right do. They say that the right call out fake news and rely on people just ignoring data. I’m smart enough to know it happens on both sides, and I correct as needed.
I’m really tired of this, as well as the down votes. What I say is really not that controversial, however, have you seen the leftist backlash on this site?
Why am I hostile? UW in the past few months has called me a rapist, said he wasn’t surprised my wife cheated, after he formerly called my wife an idiot for being with me, said I wanted Muslims dead, took joy in torturing people, Confused just implied I have the audacity to ignore violence and bad things when I’m compiling numbers, as if I am evil, and I have numerous times when saying for example that the government should not logically port marriage benefits to gays, due to there not being an equal need or exposure, been called homomphobic, sexist, racist, and a rapist.
Why don’t you tell me what the right here called you other than an idiot?
It should concern you that this backlash is here. I’m not the issue. I cause people to think, clearly, as here you are finally trying to look up numbers. It took you long enough. I’ve been doing it for years on this site, this gun argument this isn’t my first rodeo. I’ve given these numbers before.
You fail to mention due to stricter gun laws knife deaths have increased. England and Wales had increased 11% on the previous year, while National Health Service data showed a 13% rise in hospital admissions for knife wounds. A Metropolitan police report released last month indicated that between 2014 and 2016 the number of children carrying knives in London schools rose by almost 50%, while the number of knife offences in London schools rose by 26%.
I am not sure when people will understand it is not the object that is the problem. Objects are not evil, they are amoral. People are the problem and anyone bent on doing evil will do it.
You have a much better chance of safely running away from a knife attack than you do a bullet, especially if the criminal is 32 stories above you
Ever watched Hotel Rawanda?
if I own a gun LEGALLY, I need not run away from a knife attack.
Obama: “if they bring a knife to a fight, we’ll bring a gun” (paraphrased).
Show me again how easy it would be to stab and slash 600 people in a concert with a knife?
This line of thinking is nonsense. Of course there will always be people intent on doing harm, but the EASIEST way of doing it is almost always the gun besides someone. The worst part about this event, other than the tragic loss of life, is that this was a normal guy with NO signs that this could happen, and conservatives are STILL saying, “There is nothing we can do”
Everybody standing in the way of progress has blood of innocent lives on your hands.
Shrapnel bombs. See ‘Boston Marathon bombing’.
Your criteria of ‘killing/ maiming 600 people’ is irrelevant and a Straw Man argument. The number need only be 1 person, not 600. A knife, gun, sword, bomb, rope, pipe, brick, etc. will harm / kill at least one person.
Q: why didn’t the perp do his business on the grounds of the concert, where SECURITY GUARDS were patrolling, and security checks were done at the gates? hint: see capitalized letters for a clue.
A: Because he was a coward who wanted to kill as many people as he could while staying “safe” himself, so he used a long-range weapon to achieve that.
Now if he only had a knife or rope or sword, he would have to “do his business on the grounds of the concert, where SECURITY GUARDS were patrolling, and security checks were done at the gates”
He didn’t “do his business” on the grounds of the concert, although mass murders by gun are essentially the NRA’s business. He murdered people from his hotel room. If you had hundreds of people returning fire it would have been much worse.
As usual you don’t know the basics, you admitted above you have not been following it. Stop posting.
My original point stands, the coward conservatives, scared of everything, and mentally inferior, won’t allow change, we have to just accept being the only industrial nation with constant mass murder by gun.
bob,
multiple groups share that sentiment, unfortunately. violent protest is not a right vs. left issue, it is an issue of small minded people.
Peaceful, consistent protests that disrupt business as usual are the most effective ways to change society, as shown by the Civil Rights marchers and protestors.
As per his assertions that conservatives are mentally inferior, it does have scientific backing. You will dispute the research and outrightly claim it as false and run straight to the nearest source to claim bias and so on, but there have been studies that show that those who are conservative have lower cognitive ability, on average.
That’s true, Doug. There is also considerable evidence that they are generally significantly more afraid, hence their strong support for authoritarianism and dislike of any groups of “others.” The book “Conservatives Without Conscious,” by John W Dean has a few chapters on much of the work covering studies looking into this, which are pretty fascinating.
Liberals do not understand small govt and freedom becuse they are brainwashed into thinking that’s what’s best for them.
Gun laws simply shift the means of murder to knives, bombs, cars, trucks, pressure cooker bombs, beheadings, etc.
As far as the comment about knives being less deadly than a gun, I’d rather have a gun to DEFEND myself against a person ILLEGALLY possessing a gun than use a knife for self-defense. THAT may confuse the liberals more than anything else written here today.
Weird that giving up Your gun is the only Freedom you’re not willing to part with, but when it comes to searches and having your person and properties searched at any given time, you are okay with it. Your definition of small government is pretty strange.
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Oh, PolarTroll
Oh, PolarTroll
How do you write premium when you are on IJ all day?
Would this terrorist been able to kill 58 and injure 500+ more with a knife? Ever heard the expression, “he brought a knife to a gun fight”? Ever seen Indiana Jones when Indy shoots the sword fighter? I’ll take my chances with the knife.
Swing and a miss.
https://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/
There was nothing that could of been done to prevent this. Evil will do what evil does. Everyone is crying for more controls which I am not entirely against but ultimately if that is what everyone wants we are going to become a police state with check points everywhere and I mean everywhere. We will be chipping and scanning and searching everyone to boot. It’s like watching a Sci Fi movie.
http://www.theonion.com/article/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-th is-36131
With our current laws in place? But we can definitely do something in the future to prevent this from happening again. Australia banned semi-auto and full auto weapons by their CONSERVATIVES and haven’t had a massacre in 22 years. We get them yearly now, and AVERAGE 1 shooting event per day with at least 4 victims. Unacceptable, but apparently “UNPREVENTABLE!!”
Ridiculous assumption not supported by facts.
Without guns, the oppression by THE GOVT would result in Communist overthrow by a dictator. THAT is the real danger.
Lol!
That is exactly why the UK, Spain, Germany, Scandinavian countries, South Korea, Australia, etc. are all run by despots who overthrew their unarmed citizens… Oh wait…
That is by far the dumbest argument the NRA pushes to their members.
No kidding, Doug. Like a Walmart artillery is going to stand up to that of the US Armed Forces. Give me a break. Someone has been watching too many Chuck Norris movies. I don’t see too many privately owned tanks, missiles, air craft carriers, the list goes on. Yogi and his local militia don’t stand a chance. They could even have Patrick Swayze, Charlie Sheen, C. Thomas Howell, Lea Thompson, and Jennifer Grey and still not stand a chance. WOLVERINES!!!!
Then you should move to one of those countries. elt us know how your choices are in the one you choose, or several if you leave the country you first chose because of loss of liberty and safety from violent criminals or… the govt.
‘Let’ not ‘elt’. Bear culpa.
Let’s get to the real threat.. I need my guns and I don’t want anyone coming to take them away or restricting my access to purchase new ones. We all need them. Stack them up. Get as many as you can. The real enemy is coming… ZOMBIES!!!!
Define massacre:
Childers Palace Backpackers Hostel fire 23 June 2000 Childers, Queensland 15 unknown Arson attack by Robert Paul Long, which killed 15 international backpackers
Monash University Shooting 21 October 2002 Melbourne, Victoria 2 5 A mass shooting and spree killing by Huan Yun Xiang, a student at Monash University, shot dead 2 students and injured 5 others, attack was stopped by faculty.
Churchill Fire 7 February 2009 Churchill, Victoria 10 unknown Arson attack by Brendan Sokaluk that killed 10 people, during the Black Saturday bushfires period
Lin family murders 18 July 2009 North Epping, New South Wales 5 unknown Blunt instrument attack that killed 5 members of the Lin family
2011 Hectorville siege 29 April 2011 Hectorville, South Australia 3 3 Mass shooting, siege and spree killing that took place on 29 April 2011, in Hectorville, South Australia. It began after a 39-year-old male, Donato Anthony Corbo, shot four people on a neighbouring property (three of whom died), and also wounded two police officers, before being arrested by Special Operations police after an eight-hour siege.[10]
Quakers Hill nursing home fire 18 November 2011 Sydney, NSW 11 Arson attack by Roger Kingsley Dean, a nurse, which killed 11 people
Hunt family murders 9 September 2014 Lockhart, New South Wales 5 0 A Mass shooting and Familicide by Geoff Hunt who killed his wife and three children before turning the gun on himself
Sydney Siege 15 – 16 December 2014 Sydney, NSW 3 4 Siege. A lone gunman, Man Haron Monis, held hostage ten customers and eight employees of a Lindt chocolate café located at Martin Place in Sydney, Australia. The NSW Special Tactics Force shot Monis dead, after he executed a hostage. In the melee five others were shot by Police fire, causing accidental death to one of them.
Cairns child killings 19 December 2014 Cairns, Queensland 8 1 (self-inflicted by perpetrator) Stabbing attack. 8 children aged 18 months to 15 years killed. Thirty-seven-year-old woman also found injured. The woman, Raina Mersane Ina Thaiday, was later charged with the murder of the children, 7 of whom were hers, plus her niece.[11]
Port Lincoln Wharf murder–suicide 4 January 2016 Port Lincoln, South Australia 3 0 Shooting drowning murder–suicide. Damien Little drove the family station wagon with his two sons (toddler and infant) off the wharf. A rifle had been found in the car and an autopsy “revealed they had all been shot before” the car entered the water.
2016 Home Hill stabbings 23 August 2016 Home Hill, Queensland 2 1 Stabbing. French national, Smail Ayad, stabbed Mia Ayliffe-Chung, Hostel caretaker Grant Schultz, and Ian Jackson when he intervened, at a back packer’s hostel in Home Hill, Queensland. Ayliffe-Chung died at the scene, Jackson died five days later in hospital. Schultz was stabbed in the leg.[12]
Sydney family gassed 17 October 2016 Sydney, New South Wales 4 0 Gassing murder–suicide. Fernando Manrique (father), Maria Lutz (mother) and their two children aged 10 and 11 (son and daughter respectively), were all found gassed to death in their home. The father had apparently assembled and fixed pipe work into the roof and ceilings. The pipe work was then connected to gas bottles. The family had suffocated over night while they slept. It was said their pet dog was found dead with them.
2017 Melbourne car attack 20 January 2017 Melbourne, Victoria 6 30 Vehicular attack. Dimitrious Gargasoulas drove a Holden Commodore into Bourke St Mall, resulting in the deaths of 6 people and injuring 30+ others.
Looks like a terrible list, and then you see that covers 17 years and a single year in America is far, far worse for just gun violence. There are already 14 mass shootings/killings in America this year so far.
Far fewer deaths than in Chicago, Baltimore, St, Louis, and LA. What’s the common thread among those cities’ politics?
Forgive my brainstorming:
Whether the guns were purchased legally or illegally, groups of people are always targets for people who have a vendetta against the world. We have seen cars running through crowded streets, knife attacks, and guns are just one tool in the box of a person looking to do some damage.
Like most attackers, this guy was a solitary figure, with limited social interaction and no family living close by. Most attackers tend to also have a history of mental disorders, which Stephen Paddock did not as far as we know. Stephen also was in his 60’s which also does not fit the typically shooter. Most shooters are male’s in their 20’s-30’s. Unlike many shooters, Stephen seemed to have a more detailed plan and preferred really long-range shooting. (Don’t you think a psychopath would want to see his carnage up close?) We do know he was an avid gambler, and therein lies the possibility that perhaps he was motivated by fear by an unknown source to commit this crime instead of a desire for carnage.
Fun Fact: The gun industry has had a major decline in sales since Trump has come into office, because most people only buy guns when they feel the legislation is taking them away or making them illegal, this is going to actually be great for sales if the government starts looking at restricting firearms again. Double-motive for a catastrophic event like this.
Nope. People bought guns when they thought their rights were soon going to be restricted. Now that they have them, they need not buy more; how many guns do you need to defend yourself against MS-13, or … the government in some Communist leaning nations? Answer; one or two.
This is simply a matter of ‘market saturation’; e.g. I buy a new car, and need not buy another because I only need one.
Guns have saturated the market before, and each time it seems they can’t possibly sell more firearms, then a catastrophic shooting happens, and they hit a new record high in sales. Strange pattern.
http://fortune.com/2017/08/04/trump-gun-sales-obama/
“Reflecting lower demand for guns, Sturm Ruger & Company on Thursday reported revenue for the quarter ending on July n1 down 22% at $132 million. The company said the drop was due to unusually strong demand last year related to the Nov. 8 election…
During the second quarter, shops bought fewer guns as they worked through existing inventory, and revenues also fell as other manufactures offered rebates, Sturm Ruger said.
Also on Thursday, sporting goods retailer Cabela’s posted a 4.2% decrease in quarterly revenue. ‘Since the fall election, we have continued to see a slowdown in firearms and shooting related catagories,’ Cabela’s Chief Executive Tommy Millner said in a statement.
Millner also pointed out that the quarter came a year after a mass shooting at a nightclub in Orlando, Florida, which led to an increase in gun sales due to worries that about(sic) potential new gun restrictions.”
Try using a SMOOTHED pattern of gun sales instead of small time intervals after an ‘event’. IOW, a two year rolling average.
Also, look at numbers during Obama’s two terms in office and prior POTUS’s terms in office. Very revealing.
Psst; quarterly revenue is impacted by COST of guns bought, which rises with inflation. Seek out # of guns bought. Much easier to compare that as it requires no inflation adjustment.
Then, compare those #s to US population.
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107 comments and not one has been removed yet? I did not expect to see that!
The Entertainment industry can create safer events with law enforcement officials, especially if they work together. Major event organisers should wrk together and share security procedures to utilise the best and continually improve. Never Fear the criminals win.
Las Vegas is under fire now since entertainment is their main industry there. I understand the major hotels are already installing metal detectors. Hey, the TSA may be able to get some more part time jobs.