This is one area in which I do not think that jail time and punishments will help.
Whatever is causing this increase, it’s a terrible amount of deaths each year (70,237 in 2017, from what was 16,849 in 1999, a greater than 4 times increase which is crazy)
I really do think it’s a combo of family structure falling apart, education, some religion, etc, but not in the typical sense most on the left or right would say.
I don’t believe more religion is the cure, I believe establishing religion differently may be, because some parents are just jerks, or hypocrites, or, philosophical religious, too lenient religious, or too strict, but then how they apply that to education and how the balance it, any area of these aspects could create a clear imbalance. Folks are no longer mixing education, religion, and family. I believe polarization is part of this.
I’ve suggested making a program in the government to give perhaps a sentence and somehow education either through prison, or as a requirement to avoid prison, with assistance in housing along the way. It’s either pay for that or jails, and jails do not get people to be productive in society. However, I realize that has weaknesses. We need to start getting crafty on this though. This type of explosion can’t continue without some sort of severe issues coming for society as a whole. I also do not believe at all insulting those who do drugs and calling them dead beats helps, and I do see a lot of this, unfortunately.
Several other countries have had major success focusing on treatment and care rather than punishment, but that’s not the American way. The criminal justice system is treated like a business here, and that’s lead to where we are. If a poor person is convicted of a small drug crime, they then get added stress in their life of court fees, potentially lost work due to jail time, potentially more jail time if fees cannot be paid. This stress pushes them right back into more drugs. If anyone on your side was actually interested in helping people, they would just look to other countries instead of insisting that more prison is the answer.
In Portugal, if you’re caught with a small amount of drugs, instead of being locked up you’re assigned a social worker, a psychologist and a legal advisor who devise an appropriate treatment plan. Illegal drug use by teenagers has dropped, rates of HIV infection have dropped. Portugal’s right-wing vehemently opposed this system but the results have spoken.
Information is out there, we have options. The issue here is that the prison industrial complex in our country funds a lot of the politicians on your side of the aisle. They do not want to actually fix the epidemic. Your side does not care that people are dying, because the options for treatment would affect their bottom line. Options are out there, the rest of the world is not following the Our Way or the Highway approach, all it takes is an open mind and maybe the realization that the American way is not working.
My initial response was probably a little more aggressive than it needed to be and I can admit that. I’m used to your cohorts’ often ridiculously offensive answer to every single partisan issue, and our recent engagement on this very board, however your post did seem actually willing to think outside of the box.
Yes, ergo why I told you the last time we talked that I don’t think you have any idea the type of person you’re talking to. I have a heavy blend of liberal and conservative ideas.
I’ve never supported the death penalty, I do not like most forms of governmental punishment, and I think the U.S. is indeed too far on the “Jail will fix everything” as we have a jailing crises exploding out of control which makes us darn well near China in tyranny.
I disagree with this: “The criminal justice system is treated like a business here, and that’s lead to where we are”
It’s treated like politics, and the government loves the control. It’s a minor point to make but I felt I should. They don’t jail people for profit, or in any way like a business leader. They jail people to make the people believe they are righteous. The authoritarian government leader is just as risky as the religious zealot, who has some overlap with a punk business owner, but authoritarian leaders have more in common with a religious zealot in my book.
” If a poor person is convicted of a small drug crime, they then get added stress in their life of court fees, potentially lost work due to jail time, potentially more jail time if fees cannot be paid. This stress pushes them right back into more drugs. If anyone on your side was actually interested in helping people, they would just look to other countries instead of insisting that more prison is the answer.”
Stop it. Seriously. My side does indeed talk about how to solve this. The left and right both have issues on this by the demographics. There are plenty of people on the left who support jails and punishment over spending. This is really partisan. Even when I agree with the left I can’t agree with them, because often when they speak of the right, they speak like the right doesn’t care. Like I always say, the right understands you, they just have a different opinion. You on the left tend to not at all understand the right. They do in fact sympathize with the poor. You need to admit that, and then think of “my side” as humans with reasons behind why they think what they think.
“In Portugal, if you’re caught with a small amount of drugs, instead of being locked up you’re assigned a social worker, a psychologist and a legal advisor who devise an appropriate treatment plan. Illegal drug use by teenagers has dropped, rates of HIV infection have dropped. Portugal’s right-wing vehemently opposed this system but the results have spoken.”
I like this one. Also, stating the right wing opposed it doesn’t state why. There is a good chance they were against the aspect of the government flagging you, keeping track of you, and assigning a psychologist who might have some control over your life. This is like the gun background checks. The right opposed mental health once before, because the terms were too vague and would allow some aging issues to be considered a mental health issue, thereby making older folks at risk. Conservatives won’t pass bills with overreach. This is good, not bad. You need to listen to that side, acknowledge the risk, and then come up with a solution, not then say “The right is stopping us from helping people taking drugs!” as I am sure happened in Portugal if what you are saying is true, which cases partisan solutions. I’m sure if they worked with the right, they could have done even better. Stop the partisan nonsense.
“Information is out there, we have options. The issue here is that the prison industrial complex in our country funds a lot of the politicians on your side of the aisle.”
Stop the partisan nonsense. The problem is your side of the aisle sees my side of the aisle as enemies. There might be a reason outside of corruption as to why prisons give more money to republicans. It could be that the left constantly gives solutions that are bad.
“They do not want to actually fix the epidemic.”
Stop the partisan nonsense. I cannot say this enough.
“Your side does not care that people are dying,”
STOP THE PARTISAN NONSENSE. This is not acceptable to say.
“because the options for treatment would affect their bottom line.”
Incorrect. The right doesn’t like “wasted” money and overreach, this is usually why they don’t get into this issue. They also don’t believe people can be changed. This is not them saying I value the dollar over money, how dare you.
“Options are out there, the rest of the world is not following the Our Way or the Highway approach, all it takes is an open mind and maybe the realization that the American way is not working.”
The right does have an “open mind” you have a much more closed mind due to how you think of the other side.
I am on the right. I’ve said my thoughts. I always ask for solutions, and instead, I’m greeted by this when I try to reach out. How dare you. Think through your actions. America deserves better, and the toxic left is a big portion of the reason as to why no one will work together.
You can’t call your opponent a Nazi who wants people to die, is sexist and racist, and wants people in jail just because, and then have them work with you. It’s time to own some of the issues with the left.
So in other words if someone is a criminal, they don’t think the government will make them “not” a criminal.
The best thing to do here is to make them believe you can, not shame them. It is so absurd the way you talk here.
You could say: “Do you really believe that the jail will make them stop drugs? How about we do XYZ? Do you think that might help them to stop drugs?”
They might think about it at that point.
People on the right who support jails almost all think it’s either:
A: Jails make people stop crime
B: Jail punishes those who deserve it
C: The government cannot make people who do crime stop.
If they are a B they are likely a religious zealot. Why work with these people? Why talk with these people? They are not the majority in the right. You might be able to convince them that God would want to rehab these people, maybe.
If they are a C, you should show them ideas they haven’t thought of to show you might actually be able to lower crime.
If they are an A, you just show that our country jails a lot and crime isn’t going down, and then give solutions like C.
There is never a scenario when it makes sense to say what you’re saying. You wouldn’t talk to your children like this, or label them like this, you would explain it, and most adults are child like on issues, because most don’t have the time to think it through or research it like me, or you, or other people on other topics who research what we don’t.
I really don’t label myself as right or left, republican or democrat. Honestly I agree and disagree with different things on both sides. On the issue of drug use/abuse I lean more conservative than liberal. I was unfamiliar with Portugal until you brought it up so I did some quick research. After reading a synopsis of how it works I can understand why there was opposition to the program. On the surface it looks/sounds great but once you start reading deeper there are some areas that I would object to and allows the government to much overreach into someone’s personal life. They can ban people from going to places, they can confiscate personal possessions, they can take away licenses, an offender can be banned from foreign travel, the offenders are required to report to committees, they can loose assistance they receive from the government, and they can be assessed fines (there were more things on the list but these were the main ones that caught my attention). Based on my reading of how the laws work it seems like it is more of a forced rehab or we will take away rights/possessions/assistance etc. Having to meet with a government committee on a regular basis also would not sit well with me. When you look at the “success rate” of the program on the surface it looks great, however they can really only compare numbers from the time the program was implemented until current as they didn’t really keep track of statistics regarding drug use and death. I am not knocking their program, just pointing out some pretty serious flaws in it.
In January 2016 my brother OD on pain pills thankfully we found him just in time. Narcan was used and he was brought back. He did go through the court system. The judge gave him jail time but suspended it as long as he entered treatment and stuck to the plan his court appointed social worker gave him. He did and he remained out of jail. He was also put on probation and they did mandatory drug screens. In May of 2017 he was tested, the test came back positive and then he had to spend 45 days in jail for probation violation. Again he was told he if he entered treatment the jail time he would face due to the drug charge would be waived. Again he entered rehab and followed the treatment path the court appointed social worker gave him and there was no jail time received for the drug charge. August of 2017 my brother OD again on Heroin mixed with fentanyl This time he was not found in time. He was given the opportunity for rehab, our family was behind him and treatment 100%. Rehab failed because he didn’t want it. He did it to avoid jail, he did it to satisfy the court, he did it to satisfy my parents…….you can give people opportunity for treatment left and right but if they are not doing it because the truly want help it won’t work……..
When you look at the treatment options available to most addicts it is a joke and not really helpful. Local agencies cannot keep up with the number of those in need nor do they have the funds to put into expanding programs and making them better. Private facilities run in the tens of thousands of dollars. Then the addict completes the program but no longer have access to the treatment facility because of its location, they don’t have the support system in place and fall back into the same old habits.
I don’t have all the answers but I DO care about this issue and how it affects those suffering from addiction and the family and friends of those that are addicted. I agree we do need to look and think outside the box as we keep doing the same things over and over expecting it to all of a sudden work……..this is an issue where there should not be a my side and your side. It should be a how can we fix this…….we should consider solutions from all sides and realms and actually listen to each other with open minds. Just because I think something may work you may have a valid point why it wouldn’t or what a downfall would be and vice versa. The only way to actually find solutions is for all sides to keep open minds and discuss and listen…….it is ok to disagree……..it is okay to take part of my thought and part of your thought and combined them to come up with possibly an even better thought………
This is one area in which I do not think that jail time and punishments will help.
Whatever is causing this increase, it’s a terrible amount of deaths each year (70,237 in 2017, from what was 16,849 in 1999, a greater than 4 times increase which is crazy)
https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates
I really do think it’s a combo of family structure falling apart, education, some religion, etc, but not in the typical sense most on the left or right would say.
I don’t believe more religion is the cure, I believe establishing religion differently may be, because some parents are just jerks, or hypocrites, or, philosophical religious, too lenient religious, or too strict, but then how they apply that to education and how the balance it, any area of these aspects could create a clear imbalance. Folks are no longer mixing education, religion, and family. I believe polarization is part of this.
I’ve suggested making a program in the government to give perhaps a sentence and somehow education either through prison, or as a requirement to avoid prison, with assistance in housing along the way. It’s either pay for that or jails, and jails do not get people to be productive in society. However, I realize that has weaknesses. We need to start getting crafty on this though. This type of explosion can’t continue without some sort of severe issues coming for society as a whole. I also do not believe at all insulting those who do drugs and calling them dead beats helps, and I do see a lot of this, unfortunately.
Several other countries have had major success focusing on treatment and care rather than punishment, but that’s not the American way. The criminal justice system is treated like a business here, and that’s lead to where we are. If a poor person is convicted of a small drug crime, they then get added stress in their life of court fees, potentially lost work due to jail time, potentially more jail time if fees cannot be paid. This stress pushes them right back into more drugs. If anyone on your side was actually interested in helping people, they would just look to other countries instead of insisting that more prison is the answer.
In Portugal, if you’re caught with a small amount of drugs, instead of being locked up you’re assigned a social worker, a psychologist and a legal advisor who devise an appropriate treatment plan. Illegal drug use by teenagers has dropped, rates of HIV infection have dropped. Portugal’s right-wing vehemently opposed this system but the results have spoken.
Information is out there, we have options. The issue here is that the prison industrial complex in our country funds a lot of the politicians on your side of the aisle. They do not want to actually fix the epidemic. Your side does not care that people are dying, because the options for treatment would affect their bottom line. Options are out there, the rest of the world is not following the Our Way or the Highway approach, all it takes is an open mind and maybe the realization that the American way is not working.
My initial response was probably a little more aggressive than it needed to be and I can admit that. I’m used to your cohorts’ often ridiculously offensive answer to every single partisan issue, and our recent engagement on this very board, however your post did seem actually willing to think outside of the box.
Yes, ergo why I told you the last time we talked that I don’t think you have any idea the type of person you’re talking to. I have a heavy blend of liberal and conservative ideas.
I’ve never supported the death penalty, I do not like most forms of governmental punishment, and I think the U.S. is indeed too far on the “Jail will fix everything” as we have a jailing crises exploding out of control which makes us darn well near China in tyranny.
I disagree with this: “The criminal justice system is treated like a business here, and that’s lead to where we are”
It’s treated like politics, and the government loves the control. It’s a minor point to make but I felt I should. They don’t jail people for profit, or in any way like a business leader. They jail people to make the people believe they are righteous. The authoritarian government leader is just as risky as the religious zealot, who has some overlap with a punk business owner, but authoritarian leaders have more in common with a religious zealot in my book.
” If a poor person is convicted of a small drug crime, they then get added stress in their life of court fees, potentially lost work due to jail time, potentially more jail time if fees cannot be paid. This stress pushes them right back into more drugs. If anyone on your side was actually interested in helping people, they would just look to other countries instead of insisting that more prison is the answer.”
Stop it. Seriously. My side does indeed talk about how to solve this. The left and right both have issues on this by the demographics. There are plenty of people on the left who support jails and punishment over spending. This is really partisan. Even when I agree with the left I can’t agree with them, because often when they speak of the right, they speak like the right doesn’t care. Like I always say, the right understands you, they just have a different opinion. You on the left tend to not at all understand the right. They do in fact sympathize with the poor. You need to admit that, and then think of “my side” as humans with reasons behind why they think what they think.
“In Portugal, if you’re caught with a small amount of drugs, instead of being locked up you’re assigned a social worker, a psychologist and a legal advisor who devise an appropriate treatment plan. Illegal drug use by teenagers has dropped, rates of HIV infection have dropped. Portugal’s right-wing vehemently opposed this system but the results have spoken.”
I like this one. Also, stating the right wing opposed it doesn’t state why. There is a good chance they were against the aspect of the government flagging you, keeping track of you, and assigning a psychologist who might have some control over your life. This is like the gun background checks. The right opposed mental health once before, because the terms were too vague and would allow some aging issues to be considered a mental health issue, thereby making older folks at risk. Conservatives won’t pass bills with overreach. This is good, not bad. You need to listen to that side, acknowledge the risk, and then come up with a solution, not then say “The right is stopping us from helping people taking drugs!” as I am sure happened in Portugal if what you are saying is true, which cases partisan solutions. I’m sure if they worked with the right, they could have done even better. Stop the partisan nonsense.
“Information is out there, we have options. The issue here is that the prison industrial complex in our country funds a lot of the politicians on your side of the aisle.”
Stop the partisan nonsense. The problem is your side of the aisle sees my side of the aisle as enemies. There might be a reason outside of corruption as to why prisons give more money to republicans. It could be that the left constantly gives solutions that are bad.
“They do not want to actually fix the epidemic.”
Stop the partisan nonsense. I cannot say this enough.
“Your side does not care that people are dying,”
STOP THE PARTISAN NONSENSE. This is not acceptable to say.
“because the options for treatment would affect their bottom line.”
Incorrect. The right doesn’t like “wasted” money and overreach, this is usually why they don’t get into this issue. They also don’t believe people can be changed. This is not them saying I value the dollar over money, how dare you.
“Options are out there, the rest of the world is not following the Our Way or the Highway approach, all it takes is an open mind and maybe the realization that the American way is not working.”
The right does have an “open mind” you have a much more closed mind due to how you think of the other side.
I am on the right. I’ve said my thoughts. I always ask for solutions, and instead, I’m greeted by this when I try to reach out. How dare you. Think through your actions. America deserves better, and the toxic left is a big portion of the reason as to why no one will work together.
You can’t call your opponent a Nazi who wants people to die, is sexist and racist, and wants people in jail just because, and then have them work with you. It’s time to own some of the issues with the left.
“They also don’t believe people can be changed”
So in other words if someone is a criminal, they don’t think the government will make them “not” a criminal.
The best thing to do here is to make them believe you can, not shame them. It is so absurd the way you talk here.
You could say: “Do you really believe that the jail will make them stop drugs? How about we do XYZ? Do you think that might help them to stop drugs?”
They might think about it at that point.
People on the right who support jails almost all think it’s either:
A: Jails make people stop crime
B: Jail punishes those who deserve it
C: The government cannot make people who do crime stop.
If they are a B they are likely a religious zealot. Why work with these people? Why talk with these people? They are not the majority in the right. You might be able to convince them that God would want to rehab these people, maybe.
If they are a C, you should show them ideas they haven’t thought of to show you might actually be able to lower crime.
If they are an A, you just show that our country jails a lot and crime isn’t going down, and then give solutions like C.
There is never a scenario when it makes sense to say what you’re saying. You wouldn’t talk to your children like this, or label them like this, you would explain it, and most adults are child like on issues, because most don’t have the time to think it through or research it like me, or you, or other people on other topics who research what we don’t.
I really don’t label myself as right or left, republican or democrat. Honestly I agree and disagree with different things on both sides. On the issue of drug use/abuse I lean more conservative than liberal. I was unfamiliar with Portugal until you brought it up so I did some quick research. After reading a synopsis of how it works I can understand why there was opposition to the program. On the surface it looks/sounds great but once you start reading deeper there are some areas that I would object to and allows the government to much overreach into someone’s personal life. They can ban people from going to places, they can confiscate personal possessions, they can take away licenses, an offender can be banned from foreign travel, the offenders are required to report to committees, they can loose assistance they receive from the government, and they can be assessed fines (there were more things on the list but these were the main ones that caught my attention). Based on my reading of how the laws work it seems like it is more of a forced rehab or we will take away rights/possessions/assistance etc. Having to meet with a government committee on a regular basis also would not sit well with me. When you look at the “success rate” of the program on the surface it looks great, however they can really only compare numbers from the time the program was implemented until current as they didn’t really keep track of statistics regarding drug use and death. I am not knocking their program, just pointing out some pretty serious flaws in it.
In January 2016 my brother OD on pain pills thankfully we found him just in time. Narcan was used and he was brought back. He did go through the court system. The judge gave him jail time but suspended it as long as he entered treatment and stuck to the plan his court appointed social worker gave him. He did and he remained out of jail. He was also put on probation and they did mandatory drug screens. In May of 2017 he was tested, the test came back positive and then he had to spend 45 days in jail for probation violation. Again he was told he if he entered treatment the jail time he would face due to the drug charge would be waived. Again he entered rehab and followed the treatment path the court appointed social worker gave him and there was no jail time received for the drug charge. August of 2017 my brother OD again on Heroin mixed with fentanyl This time he was not found in time. He was given the opportunity for rehab, our family was behind him and treatment 100%. Rehab failed because he didn’t want it. He did it to avoid jail, he did it to satisfy the court, he did it to satisfy my parents…….you can give people opportunity for treatment left and right but if they are not doing it because the truly want help it won’t work……..
When you look at the treatment options available to most addicts it is a joke and not really helpful. Local agencies cannot keep up with the number of those in need nor do they have the funds to put into expanding programs and making them better. Private facilities run in the tens of thousands of dollars. Then the addict completes the program but no longer have access to the treatment facility because of its location, they don’t have the support system in place and fall back into the same old habits.
I don’t have all the answers but I DO care about this issue and how it affects those suffering from addiction and the family and friends of those that are addicted. I agree we do need to look and think outside the box as we keep doing the same things over and over expecting it to all of a sudden work……..this is an issue where there should not be a my side and your side. It should be a how can we fix this…….we should consider solutions from all sides and realms and actually listen to each other with open minds. Just because I think something may work you may have a valid point why it wouldn’t or what a downfall would be and vice versa. The only way to actually find solutions is for all sides to keep open minds and discuss and listen…….it is ok to disagree……..it is okay to take part of my thought and part of your thought and combined them to come up with possibly an even better thought………