What am I missing here? Other than requiring companies to roll back rates 25%, I don’t see any meaningful solutions. Limiting visits to 12 will just make doctors bill more at time of service. The initial emergency room visit won’t prevent the follow-up visits to other doctors, where the real damage is done.
Once companies are required to rollback rates 25% without seeing savings, the underwriting restrictions will really heat-up.
Use more IMEs and medical record peer reviews when overutilization is suspected to help control costs and fraud. Many folks have legitimate injuries that deserve proper tx beyond the ER whether provided by MDs, DOs, or DCs. Contrary to what Rep Boyd, the governor and insurance commissioner will have you believe most patients are not committing fraud and neither are most treating medical doctors, ostepathic and chiropractic doctors. Preserve the citizens right to choose the provider of their liking or srap the no fault system altogether and go to a fault system. The insurance companies can not have it both ways. That is forcing citizens to pay for PIP and then not wanting them to be able to seek the provider of their choice when injured and by the way within a short 3 day window post accident. The insurance industry, the governor, rep Boyd and the republicans who voted for the house bill 119 are being patently unfair with the citizens of the state of Florida on this issue.
you really do not understand this situation.
Stop worrying about doctors bills because when the hospitals
are finished billing the benefits will be expired.
Plus the poor patient in pain will have to be limited in relief and forced to take oxycontin and because chiropractors and other doctors that can help will not be available.
Worry how Rick Scott and the other robbers are taking away the help for the little people.
We do not have the money for lobbyists like insurance companys and hospitals. Watch who votes for this like rabid Scott and his band of merry robbers. Then you know who just might appear bought and sold.
As a retired claims adjuster, The injured or not taken to a hospital> The hospital will take x-rays and various scans and eat the $10,000 on the first emergency visit, whather the person is injured or not
I agree in the last year I have seen an increase in hospitals doing multiple CT scans along with x-rays of a shoulder elbow and might as well do the wrist too. And rarely do i see a female patient who hasn’t had a pregnancy test despite knowing the date of her LMC. I just a in-the-trench physician, I don’t claim to have the answers but a slash and burn approach benefits noone
So what are we to conclude—that it is massage therapists and acupuncture physicians who are responsible for PIP fraud? Gee…I don’t see PIP billboards all over town for massage or acupuncture, but last night driving home from the airport I saw no less than 12 billboards for 1-800-ASK Gary, 1-800-411-Pain and from another ten or more law firms. After my accident, I tried MD’s and Chiropractic, but I did not get permanently better until I received Medical Massage treatments. Why don’t they go after the REAL sources of fraud instead of instituting a unilateral provision cutting out massage treattments by licensed therapists?
Ken, You are “right on”. I work for a very conservative PIP dr. with an NMT in our office. We are as good as out of business. FL gov’t got this so wrong. Instead of getting rid of all the 1-800’s and pain clinics, not to mention reeling in attorney fees…they’ve done NOTHING to fix the problem. I am sick to death of lobbyists paying off politicians!!!
What we are seeing yet again is the power of the insurance companies. As a doctor that treats PIP patients I have already had to inform my massage therapists, both who have worked for me for the last 10 years, that they may be out of a job.. they are very concerned as are their families. Add two more people to the unemployment line. While fraud is something that must be addressed, the houses bill that chiropractors should be eliminated from Pip and all patients should go to the hospital is criminal. A patient can treat with a chiropractor, receive physical therapy, diagnostic testing and medical/orthopedic care for the treatment of their injuries the way Pip stands now. Whenever a patient goes to the hospital (what used to be an exam, a couple x-rays and some medication)the hospital knocks out the entire $10,000 of PIP in 2 hours doing a slew of unnecessary testing (5-6 CT scans) for a simple fender fender. This leaves the patient with no benefits for the treatment of their injuries. The “Governor” is about to send doctors, therapists and staff straight to the unemployment lines while taking away the proper care for injury victims. So if you have an accident be prepared to be thrown a big bottle of pills…pills that you will need to take the rest of your life because your injuries were not properly cared for. The governor is supposed to represent the people. He is only representing the Insurance companies so the can stuff their pockets on every insurance program they sell you. Absolutely criminal!
Its beyond me how you think this bill helps insurance companies at all. They are still paying out the same $10,000, what happens with this bill is that it shifts money from one set of medical providers to another. The insurance company is still paying out the same funds no matter who gets paid so how does this benefit them.
Obviously FLagent this bill is helping insurance companies or they wouldnt be backing it. Doesnt that make sense to you? And they will NOT be paying out the $10,000 because they have put strict limitations on the fees that can be charged, the amount of visits allowed and the type of treatment allowed. The bill doesnt shift the money from one provider to another. It shifts the money from the doctor to the insurance company in the form of savings all the while the patient has NO FREEDOM to choose the doctor he believes will help him and takes away the doctors ability to determine what type of treatment is needed and how many treatments the patient will need. It doesnt matter if you dont like chiropractors, massage therapists or acupuncturists… some people do and they want that type of treatment so they should have the right to do that. If your child was injured in an accident would you prefer they get a massage or a bottle of Vicadin. Fraud is the issue not alternative health providers.
doctor, PIP fraud comes in all forms. Lots of time the attorney’s sue for PIP, they get their fee, cut a check to the patient for the rest and the medical provider gets nothing. How about that?!
As a chiropractic physician I can’t believe that some people remain ignorant. I went to a 4 year undergraduate university and then had 5 years of graduate eduction before being granted my Doctoral degree. I have been in practice for 27 years and have helped thousands of patients with all kinds of health problems. I continue on a yearly basis to upgrade my knowledge and understanding of the functioning of the human body in an effort to remain current. Its people who don’t have a clue such as this person and who don’t take the time to educate themselves about issues and qualifications that make snap judgements without the benefit of research to back up their opinions.
As for the comments by Doctor, before he makes a blind comment that insurance companies stuff their pockets with profits, he should look at what carriers collect in premiums for PIP each year and what they pay out in claims. Then he’d realize the rates we charge don’t cover the losses we pay out. I’m curious to see what his billing rates are and the % of his successful treatments. I am willing to bet that like the hospital, the $10,000 doesn’t go very far at his clinic…
I agree, get rid of PIP. I’m sure the insurance companies would be more than happy if PIP was eliminated entirely. Its laughable that this Dr thinks this bill benefits the insurance carrier.
What about Freedom of choice in Healthcare?
Florida Citizens to be told by the Government, who we can see for our health care…..Is this America?
Sad state of affairs my friends.
FYI
Massage Therapist are licensed in the State of Florida under the Dept of Health, considered Healthcare practitioners. Establishments are licensed.
I am retired but worked as claims adjuster for over 40 years. The clinics have runners with documentation they represent the press are able to get police accident report immediately. The clinics have runners who contact those involved in accidents and offer from $1000.00 to $1500.00 if they go to their clinics. When victims appear at the clinic they get get half after they qualify for the PIP and sometimes they get the other half when the clinic gets the $10,000. If PIP was eliminated it would reduce BI claims by at least 60% or if these so called injured people had to pay back the PIP the bulk of these BI claims would be eliminated. PIP is used to finance the BI claims nothing more.
I am yet still amazed at the ignorance some of you display. If PIP was not profitable for big insurance, you would not see the scum bags on tv trying to get you to get your car insured with them. Its so easy a cave man can do it, Flo with Progressive ect… WAKE UP FOLKS. PIP makes the insurnace companies money. They just want a BIGGER chunk of the by and thats why they are crying. I still fail to see how this new law will stop or slow FRAUD!!! Where are the PENALITES for fraud in the bill? Its all about MONEY for the insurance companys.
I agree with the comments that the hospital will take the PIP quick. if the fly in it’s gone as soon as the helo leaves the scene. The requirement of EMC will make PIP unattainable for most. Safety improvements have reduced serious injury and death and instead have left more soft tissue injury which now will go mostly un-or undertreated. As a doctor, I do have a problem with the 1-800’s and 100% PI practices. I get lots of fallout patients from those places that didn’t feel they were being helped. Reviewing their records the were seen 1 time by MD, 1 time by DC and lots of EMS and massage. In the end, legitimate, stable practices will find their way but patient care WILL suffer. Personally, i would of expected better from our leaders in addressing these issues. I would have had more respect for them if they would of just eliminated the entire system.
Well from a former Auto Special Investigations perspective one of many in the State of FL. I can tell you all that PIP has created an extremely lucritive criminal enterprise. There are so many staged accidents taking place throughout FL my field staff could not keep up. It is these types of operations which do include, cappers, runners, Medical “almost” Professionals, Law Firms, referral services etc.. In many of these case we have proven the staging parties sign a bunch of paperwork, never treat, and receive a small sum for their FL guaranteed benefits. Were PIP so profitable for Insurance Companies why were most on board back in mid 2000 to have PIP Sunset. There are good Dr’s, Chiro’s, Attorneys, out there, and it is unfortunate we need to go to the extreme to control the PIP abuse, but the abuse hits everyone in their pocketbooks through rate increases, and in an ever growing trend puts innocent victims in the path of these rings causing accidents.
What am I missing here? Other than requiring companies to roll back rates 25%, I don’t see any meaningful solutions. Limiting visits to 12 will just make doctors bill more at time of service. The initial emergency room visit won’t prevent the follow-up visits to other doctors, where the real damage is done.
Once companies are required to rollback rates 25% without seeing savings, the underwriting restrictions will really heat-up.
Use more IMEs and medical record peer reviews when overutilization is suspected to help control costs and fraud. Many folks have legitimate injuries that deserve proper tx beyond the ER whether provided by MDs, DOs, or DCs. Contrary to what Rep Boyd, the governor and insurance commissioner will have you believe most patients are not committing fraud and neither are most treating medical doctors, ostepathic and chiropractic doctors. Preserve the citizens right to choose the provider of their liking or srap the no fault system altogether and go to a fault system. The insurance companies can not have it both ways. That is forcing citizens to pay for PIP and then not wanting them to be able to seek the provider of their choice when injured and by the way within a short 3 day window post accident. The insurance industry, the governor, rep Boyd and the republicans who voted for the house bill 119 are being patently unfair with the citizens of the state of Florida on this issue.
you really do not understand this situation.
Stop worrying about doctors bills because when the hospitals
are finished billing the benefits will be expired.
Plus the poor patient in pain will have to be limited in relief and forced to take oxycontin and because chiropractors and other doctors that can help will not be available.
Worry how Rick Scott and the other robbers are taking away the help for the little people.
We do not have the money for lobbyists like insurance companys and hospitals. Watch who votes for this like rabid Scott and his band of merry robbers. Then you know who just might appear bought and sold.
As a retired claims adjuster, The injured or not taken to a hospital> The hospital will take x-rays and various scans and eat the $10,000 on the first emergency visit, whather the person is injured or not
I agree in the last year I have seen an increase in hospitals doing multiple CT scans along with x-rays of a shoulder elbow and might as well do the wrist too. And rarely do i see a female patient who hasn’t had a pregnancy test despite knowing the date of her LMC. I just a in-the-trench physician, I don’t claim to have the answers but a slash and burn approach benefits noone
So what are we to conclude—that it is massage therapists and acupuncture physicians who are responsible for PIP fraud? Gee…I don’t see PIP billboards all over town for massage or acupuncture, but last night driving home from the airport I saw no less than 12 billboards for 1-800-ASK Gary, 1-800-411-Pain and from another ten or more law firms. After my accident, I tried MD’s and Chiropractic, but I did not get permanently better until I received Medical Massage treatments. Why don’t they go after the REAL sources of fraud instead of instituting a unilateral provision cutting out massage treattments by licensed therapists?
Ken, You are “right on”. I work for a very conservative PIP dr. with an NMT in our office. We are as good as out of business. FL gov’t got this so wrong. Instead of getting rid of all the 1-800’s and pain clinics, not to mention reeling in attorney fees…they’ve done NOTHING to fix the problem. I am sick to death of lobbyists paying off politicians!!!
What we are seeing yet again is the power of the insurance companies. As a doctor that treats PIP patients I have already had to inform my massage therapists, both who have worked for me for the last 10 years, that they may be out of a job.. they are very concerned as are their families. Add two more people to the unemployment line. While fraud is something that must be addressed, the houses bill that chiropractors should be eliminated from Pip and all patients should go to the hospital is criminal. A patient can treat with a chiropractor, receive physical therapy, diagnostic testing and medical/orthopedic care for the treatment of their injuries the way Pip stands now. Whenever a patient goes to the hospital (what used to be an exam, a couple x-rays and some medication)the hospital knocks out the entire $10,000 of PIP in 2 hours doing a slew of unnecessary testing (5-6 CT scans) for a simple fender fender. This leaves the patient with no benefits for the treatment of their injuries. The “Governor” is about to send doctors, therapists and staff straight to the unemployment lines while taking away the proper care for injury victims. So if you have an accident be prepared to be thrown a big bottle of pills…pills that you will need to take the rest of your life because your injuries were not properly cared for. The governor is supposed to represent the people. He is only representing the Insurance companies so the can stuff their pockets on every insurance program they sell you. Absolutely criminal!
Its beyond me how you think this bill helps insurance companies at all. They are still paying out the same $10,000, what happens with this bill is that it shifts money from one set of medical providers to another. The insurance company is still paying out the same funds no matter who gets paid so how does this benefit them.
Obviously FLagent this bill is helping insurance companies or they wouldnt be backing it. Doesnt that make sense to you? And they will NOT be paying out the $10,000 because they have put strict limitations on the fees that can be charged, the amount of visits allowed and the type of treatment allowed. The bill doesnt shift the money from one provider to another. It shifts the money from the doctor to the insurance company in the form of savings all the while the patient has NO FREEDOM to choose the doctor he believes will help him and takes away the doctors ability to determine what type of treatment is needed and how many treatments the patient will need. It doesnt matter if you dont like chiropractors, massage therapists or acupuncturists… some people do and they want that type of treatment so they should have the right to do that. If your child was injured in an accident would you prefer they get a massage or a bottle of Vicadin. Fraud is the issue not alternative health providers.
doctor, PIP fraud comes in all forms. Lots of time the attorney’s sue for PIP, they get their fee, cut a check to the patient for the rest and the medical provider gets nothing. How about that?!
is a chiropractor a real doctor?
The chiropractors seem to think so.
As a chiropractic physician I can’t believe that some people remain ignorant. I went to a 4 year undergraduate university and then had 5 years of graduate eduction before being granted my Doctoral degree. I have been in practice for 27 years and have helped thousands of patients with all kinds of health problems. I continue on a yearly basis to upgrade my knowledge and understanding of the functioning of the human body in an effort to remain current. Its people who don’t have a clue such as this person and who don’t take the time to educate themselves about issues and qualifications that make snap judgements without the benefit of research to back up their opinions.
Are we to believe that all agents and claims adjusters are professional and unbiased?
Only responsible thing is to get rid of PIP.
Correct.
As for the comments by Doctor, before he makes a blind comment that insurance companies stuff their pockets with profits, he should look at what carriers collect in premiums for PIP each year and what they pay out in claims. Then he’d realize the rates we charge don’t cover the losses we pay out. I’m curious to see what his billing rates are and the % of his successful treatments. I am willing to bet that like the hospital, the $10,000 doesn’t go very far at his clinic…
I agree, get rid of PIP. I’m sure the insurance companies would be more than happy if PIP was eliminated entirely. Its laughable that this Dr thinks this bill benefits the insurance carrier.
What about Freedom of choice in Healthcare?
Florida Citizens to be told by the Government, who we can see for our health care…..Is this America?
Sad state of affairs my friends.
FYI
Massage Therapist are licensed in the State of Florida under the Dept of Health, considered Healthcare practitioners. Establishments are licensed.
I am retired but worked as claims adjuster for over 40 years. The clinics have runners with documentation they represent the press are able to get police accident report immediately. The clinics have runners who contact those involved in accidents and offer from $1000.00 to $1500.00 if they go to their clinics. When victims appear at the clinic they get get half after they qualify for the PIP and sometimes they get the other half when the clinic gets the $10,000. If PIP was eliminated it would reduce BI claims by at least 60% or if these so called injured people had to pay back the PIP the bulk of these BI claims would be eliminated. PIP is used to finance the BI claims nothing more.
I am yet still amazed at the ignorance some of you display. If PIP was not profitable for big insurance, you would not see the scum bags on tv trying to get you to get your car insured with them. Its so easy a cave man can do it, Flo with Progressive ect… WAKE UP FOLKS. PIP makes the insurnace companies money. They just want a BIGGER chunk of the by and thats why they are crying. I still fail to see how this new law will stop or slow FRAUD!!! Where are the PENALITES for fraud in the bill? Its all about MONEY for the insurance companys.
I agree with the comments that the hospital will take the PIP quick. if the fly in it’s gone as soon as the helo leaves the scene. The requirement of EMC will make PIP unattainable for most. Safety improvements have reduced serious injury and death and instead have left more soft tissue injury which now will go mostly un-or undertreated. As a doctor, I do have a problem with the 1-800’s and 100% PI practices. I get lots of fallout patients from those places that didn’t feel they were being helped. Reviewing their records the were seen 1 time by MD, 1 time by DC and lots of EMS and massage. In the end, legitimate, stable practices will find their way but patient care WILL suffer. Personally, i would of expected better from our leaders in addressing these issues. I would have had more respect for them if they would of just eliminated the entire system.
To put it simply, PIP is a toxic coverage for everyone except ambulance chasers and witch doctors. BI/tort systems work much better in practice.
Well from a former Auto Special Investigations perspective one of many in the State of FL. I can tell you all that PIP has created an extremely lucritive criminal enterprise. There are so many staged accidents taking place throughout FL my field staff could not keep up. It is these types of operations which do include, cappers, runners, Medical “almost” Professionals, Law Firms, referral services etc.. In many of these case we have proven the staging parties sign a bunch of paperwork, never treat, and receive a small sum for their FL guaranteed benefits. Were PIP so profitable for Insurance Companies why were most on board back in mid 2000 to have PIP Sunset. There are good Dr’s, Chiro’s, Attorneys, out there, and it is unfortunate we need to go to the extreme to control the PIP abuse, but the abuse hits everyone in their pocketbooks through rate increases, and in an ever growing trend puts innocent victims in the path of these rings causing accidents.