So the daughter never told her parents? Hard to believe that! I’m betting mom and dad did very little – or nothing – prior to their daughter’s death and NOW are acting. A little too late, except the ‘ol school district has deeper pockets than the parents of the kids who allegedly bullied her.
It’s easy to sit high on your throne and condemn the girl’s parents, particularly when so many of you folks immediately decide the suit is all about the money. Do you have any kids Scott? If you did, you would know that it really isn’t that hard to believe the girl did not tell her parents anything about her troubles. Parents never know everything going on in their child’s life. If you have kids and you think you know everything going on in their lives, you are fooling yourself.
Teens are often full of angst and the girl may not have exhibited any unusual signs to illicit an inquiry from her parents. The school, on the other hand, apparently knew all about the bullying and didn’t inform the parents of the victem or the bully. That is wrong. It sounds like they permitted it to go on and neglected to protect the girl while she as in their custody. I see this as being not much different than many other liability situations where a business owner owes a responsibility of safety to their customers.
It may be hard to believe, but kids really don’t always tell their parents or teachers. My parents didn’t know until 20+ years after the fact.
I was bullied mercilessly in junior high. To this day, I’m still not sure exactly what I did to draw their attention, but I was targeted by a group of girls who did their best to make life miserable for me. I dreaded going to school every day, but I never said anything, because I figured it would just make it worse if they got in trouble for it. So, I just kept quiet, kept my head down, and tried to stick it out until high school. (Thankfully, high school was MUCH better. :)
One night not too long ago, I was visiting my parents, and we got into a discussion about bullying. I mentioned how rough junior high had been for me, and said that I was glad that it was in the 90’s and not now. It was a terrible time, but at least home was a sanctuary for me and they couldn’t at get me there. Today, with the prevalence of social media, kids don’t always have a way to get away from it.
My mother was horrified. She had no idea that I’d been bullied and was devastated that she didn’t stop it for me. My mom wasn’t inattentive. At that time, she was a stay-at-home mom, and was pretty involved in our lives. I could and did talk to her about almost everything – everything except the bullying. Because I was positive that it wouldn’t help, and that it would only make things worse, I made sure that neither of my parents ever knew. If I didn’t want to go to school, it was because of a test I didn’t want to take, or a report that I didn’t do. Not because of the girls who took pleasure in tormenting me.
All this to say, it’s not always the parents’ fault. Kids can be pretty good at hiding things. If the parents didn’t know, it might be because the kid didn’t want them to – not because they’re neglectful.
As a group, many 13 year olds end up being somber and withdrawn from a variety of motivations but bullying is something that should not be ignored. I fully agree with the locked up weapons inference in the first posting but awareness of their daughter’s emotional situation is the parent’s responsibility. This is not the first time that bullying has been raised as a topic and certainly our electronic age has made bullying into an art form that everyone can use, if they so choose. Perhaps the bullying is properly laid at the feet of the parents of the bullier, rather than the school district whose hands have been tied multiple times from interceding on many other issues. I experienced a similar situation with my children and nothing substitutes for parental involvement and intercession if needed.
“Three weeks before Hailee’s death, a classmate anonymously reported the taunting on the school district’s anti-bullying website. The school was legally required to tell the Lamberths about the compliant.” The bullying was also witnessed by her P.E. teacher who did nothing.
Her suicide letter said “I only ask that you tell my school I killed myself so maybe next time people like (bully) wants to call someone (names), he won’t.”
I have no words to express my outrage. A teacher should never allow bullying. I cannot understand why someone is teaching if they don’t give a crap about the students. Which is what the P.E. teacher’s lack of action says to me. Add to that the bullying was reported to the school district.
I totally get what you are saying but that’s probably a loaded question…or involves a loaded answer. I imagine if the kid is a bully, the parents aren’t much better. And it seems to me, somewhere in the 80s-90s, teachers wanted to be seen as friends versus authority figures, and on the flip side, I think parents started to look down on teachers and say things like, “you can’t talk to my perfect angel that way!!”
I’m not defending the teacher, but who knows what he/she was thinking. I don’t think you can just put the blame on her, but I think you are right in asking why nothing happened. Maybe that same student was bullying her, too.
My daughter is not in school yet, and already I have anxiety over stuff like this.
The school was savvy enough to have a bullying hotline in place, so surely this P.E. teacher was trained to spot and stop bullying. They chose not to. Some P.E. teachers just think it’s part of growing up and will make you a “tougher” athlete. That’s obviously not true.
I was bullied in elementary, jr. high, and the beginning of high school. i was the smaller, weaker kid who was no good at sports, so i was often ridiculed. i couldn’t fight back because i physically couldn’t. there was this one kid who would trip me whenever he got behind me in the hall, to the point where i would go way out of my way to avoid him on my way to a class. he eventually pushed me down a flight of stairs. i didn’t get hurt physically but nearly had a nervous breakdown. my parents eventually intervened and had to threaten to sue the school before any real action was taken. this was back in the mid 80’s and early 90’s; i can’t imagine what it would be like today. i suffered from pretty severe self-esteem issues, and still struggle with bouts of anxiety and depression today. I was in therapy, and remember once finding a few news articles my mom had saved detailing school shootings or of kids bringing guns to school. Scary stuff.
things got better. i got my first real girlfriend in my freshman year of high school, then i forced myself to join the cross country team and the school chorus. I met a lot of kids who were more “like me” and realized that I wasn’t alone. I developed a strong sense of humor. Eventually, the kids who used to pick on me grew out of it, and I’ll never forget hanging out with some of them during Senior Week and them being amazed we all had so much in common.
Today, I’m a reasonably successful underwriter at a job I love and have been at for 12 years. I’m married to an unbelievably understanding woman and we have 2 beautiful girls. I count my blessings every day. I teach my girls to talk to EVERYONE, because everyone needs a friend. I’ll never forget what it was like being bullied, but I realize I could have had it much worse. I don’t dwell on the past and have forgiven the bullies.
October 28, 2014 at 3:09 pm
Libby says:
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What a great story, Louie. I’m really happy things turned out so well for you.
October 28, 2014 at 5:13 pm
bob says:
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I just have to comment here:
Many people should probably pay particular attention to Louie’s post.
One of my good friends in high school, I to this day remember how we started out as friends. In one of our earlier times hanging out in middle school, he slammed my head into a wall, and nearly knocked me unconscious when I was in 6th grade. The guy clearly did not know how to deal with certain emotional issues he was having. He beat me up quite often when we hung out, or I should call it boys being boys, he somehow got his frustrations out by taking them out on me. But interestingly, what I did was befriend him. I had a history of this. In my Senior year he expressed interest in choir, and I started helping teach him how to sing and we joined the same choir class (I was in Choir for a loooonnngg time) He was practically tone deaf when we started. Some of my first friends I met were people that were more than just a little disturbed. All of them, with the exception of one, ended up changing. How people react to “bullies” creates bullies and is awfully bullying in behavior.
Recently I saw a youtube video after a kid killed herself, with a guy saying that these bullies need to learn consequences, by getting shot in the head, or their @$$es kicked, and essentially any multitude of punishments saying how low the bully was. This is the issue in why bullying isn’t solved. It is usually not quite that severe, but consider what you are willing to think and do to people that you figure wronged you. We should be thinking about how to be good people. Not how to make things right that were done (Justice).
Parents think of bullying in the wrong light. And punishing the bully through the school would make things worse with these “bullies”. They want to be talked up, not talked down, and usually have issues with authority. The best way to get a kid to go crazy is to give him a suspension and send him home to parents that clearly aren’t caring for him/her properly. Punishment won’t have an affect. What they want to hear is “You’re a good kid.” and they want support. They all too often don’t know how to be a part of groups and it is why they bully their way into it. I feel sorry for bullies most of the time. They are usually more alienated than the people they bully.
So when Louie says he befriended some of the bullies, and says he tells his daughters to be nice to everyone, this is the way to stop bullies. To make sure no member of society is without support and life connections.
October 29, 2014 at 10:22 am
Nebraskan says:
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I still think your answer is assuming a lot. So they have a bullying hotline. That probably means as much to those kids as the pledges to not drink or have sex (D.A.R.E. and what not). And not all PE teachers are like that. Do you know her personally? Again, I’m not saying I’m right or that the teacher isn’t guilty of something, but until people can have a conversation about this without assumptions and stereotypes, we’re not really going to get anywhere.
October 29, 2014 at 10:23 am
Nebraskan says:
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And Libby, I’m not Agent, nor do I ever try to argue with you….so you don’t have to jump down my throat.
October 29, 2014 at 11:57 am
Libby says:
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I’m not jumping down your throat. I can disagree with someone civilly and politely. I understand you are giving another side to this, but it was a student that used the bullying hotline to report the abuse so it’s not like they didn’t know it was there and what it was for. In addition, I didn’t say ALL P.E. teachers were like that, thus the use of the word “some” in front of P.E. teachers. I think the teacher, who allegedly witnessed this bullying, is certainly responsible for not intervening or at the very least reporting it. You are free to disagree.
October 29, 2014 at 2:55 pm
uct says:
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Imagine this Libby, I’m going to agree with you. I was bullied for three years in school by the same group of people. Two in particular. Each day after school let out, I tried to run home to avoid the daily butt kicking. I was a very small kid compared to others my age. As I grew older, I found I couldn’t handle being around groups of people. I did what we were taught to do back then, sucked it up and went on with life. To the people who say bullying isn’t an issue, I say you have no clue what you are talking about. Even though I was a young kid at the time, the scars you carry around for life are beyond explanation. I’m 40 now, with a great career and family. I still cannot be around crowds of people, still wake up at all hours of the night with anxiety attacks and still look over my shoulder constantly when out in public, or even in the office. Could you tell from looking at me now? No. I have 22 years in Martial Arts and am a personal trainer on the side. Does that mean anything after you’ve been bullied? No. No, it does not.
October 29, 2014 at 3:19 pm
Libby says:
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Imagine that UCT. We agree on something. I hate it that you were bullied. I was for a short time because I had to wear a patch over my eye for a while in grade school, but even though I wasn’t “bullied” I never felt like I was a part of the “in” crowd. That has shaped who I am to an extent and is one of the reasons I tend to sway liberal on social issues. I say there should be more acceptance and tolerance in the world so people don’t grow up feeling bad about themselves.
But don’t take my liberal social views as an endorsement of everything this administration does or doesn’t do. It’s not.
October 28, 2014 at 3:35 pm
Four eyes says:
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Good for you, Louie. I am glad it turned out well for you and your family. Yup, I’ve worn glasses since elementary school, was as skinny as a rail & took a lot of flack. When I stood up to them, I ended up having some additional friends.
the most important lesson I’ve learned is: Things get better, and People Change. It’s easy to think that your life is over when you’re being bullied, and sometimes the hardest thing in the world is getting up in the morning, but if you keep persevering you’ll get through. Also, there’s never anything wrong with having to ask for help.
When I was a freshman in college, I had a pretty big chip on my shoulder from my past. I had some friends, but people could definitely tell that something wasn’t right. One day, a guy asked me, “Dude, why do you have such a big chip on your shoulder? You have everything in the world going for you.” Here, I’d been going through life feeling sorry for myself and believing all the crap that had been said when people were making fun of me, and this random guy called me out on the carpet with that one statement. I don’t remember the guy’s name, but I’ve never forgotten his message.
Good on you, Louie! Oh, and hi Libby. It’s been awhile, way busy and too much travel.
Saw way too much verbal bullying going on when I was a kid. Heck, some of my “friends” ridiculed one of our other “friends” to the point his mom told my mom he cried himself to sleep at night and cried himself awake. That’s the point I realized my bully “friends” needed to shut the f up and if they didn’t, no sense in supporting them anymore. Some of them woke up and are still friends, the others are who knows where. And that’s where I choose to keep them. By the way, the guy who was verbally abused, doing well and is a heck of a dude. Probably a success story like you, Louie.
“. That’s the point I realized my bully “friends” needed to shut the f up and if they didn’t, no sense in supporting them anymore”
I was going to post how there is a bullied type that tends to perpetuate bullying, seeing as the bullier is not a bully typically. They are a damaged person who needs help.
The bullied can sometimes be the type that is polarized, white and black morality, the “I’m better than you SHUT THE F UP” fight. You learned to abandon members of society that don’t do what you want them to do, or are flawed. You became selfish, not selfless. You essentially said to yourself, “if they don’t praise me, they lose me”.
The “I finally realized bullies had to shut the f up or leave” shows a lot about you.
You know what I realized? I realized I had to be nice, or if I couldn’t handle it or the bully didn’t change, be completely nice and not even think down to bullies like your line does.
While I grieve for their loss, good old Mom and Dad probably could have done a better job of locking up their Second Amendment rights.
So the daughter never told her parents? Hard to believe that! I’m betting mom and dad did very little – or nothing – prior to their daughter’s death and NOW are acting. A little too late, except the ‘ol school district has deeper pockets than the parents of the kids who allegedly bullied her.
It’s easy to sit high on your throne and condemn the girl’s parents, particularly when so many of you folks immediately decide the suit is all about the money. Do you have any kids Scott? If you did, you would know that it really isn’t that hard to believe the girl did not tell her parents anything about her troubles. Parents never know everything going on in their child’s life. If you have kids and you think you know everything going on in their lives, you are fooling yourself.
Teens are often full of angst and the girl may not have exhibited any unusual signs to illicit an inquiry from her parents. The school, on the other hand, apparently knew all about the bullying and didn’t inform the parents of the victem or the bully. That is wrong. It sounds like they permitted it to go on and neglected to protect the girl while she as in their custody. I see this as being not much different than many other liability situations where a business owner owes a responsibility of safety to their customers.
It may be hard to believe, but kids really don’t always tell their parents or teachers. My parents didn’t know until 20+ years after the fact.
I was bullied mercilessly in junior high. To this day, I’m still not sure exactly what I did to draw their attention, but I was targeted by a group of girls who did their best to make life miserable for me. I dreaded going to school every day, but I never said anything, because I figured it would just make it worse if they got in trouble for it. So, I just kept quiet, kept my head down, and tried to stick it out until high school. (Thankfully, high school was MUCH better. :)
One night not too long ago, I was visiting my parents, and we got into a discussion about bullying. I mentioned how rough junior high had been for me, and said that I was glad that it was in the 90’s and not now. It was a terrible time, but at least home was a sanctuary for me and they couldn’t at get me there. Today, with the prevalence of social media, kids don’t always have a way to get away from it.
My mother was horrified. She had no idea that I’d been bullied and was devastated that she didn’t stop it for me. My mom wasn’t inattentive. At that time, she was a stay-at-home mom, and was pretty involved in our lives. I could and did talk to her about almost everything – everything except the bullying. Because I was positive that it wouldn’t help, and that it would only make things worse, I made sure that neither of my parents ever knew. If I didn’t want to go to school, it was because of a test I didn’t want to take, or a report that I didn’t do. Not because of the girls who took pleasure in tormenting me.
All this to say, it’s not always the parents’ fault. Kids can be pretty good at hiding things. If the parents didn’t know, it might be because the kid didn’t want them to – not because they’re neglectful.
As a group, many 13 year olds end up being somber and withdrawn from a variety of motivations but bullying is something that should not be ignored. I fully agree with the locked up weapons inference in the first posting but awareness of their daughter’s emotional situation is the parent’s responsibility. This is not the first time that bullying has been raised as a topic and certainly our electronic age has made bullying into an art form that everyone can use, if they so choose. Perhaps the bullying is properly laid at the feet of the parents of the bullier, rather than the school district whose hands have been tied multiple times from interceding on many other issues. I experienced a similar situation with my children and nothing substitutes for parental involvement and intercession if needed.
As usual IJ doesn’t include all the details.
“Three weeks before Hailee’s death, a classmate anonymously reported the taunting on the school district’s anti-bullying website. The school was legally required to tell the Lamberths about the compliant.” The bullying was also witnessed by her P.E. teacher who did nothing.
Her suicide letter said “I only ask that you tell my school I killed myself so maybe next time people like (bully) wants to call someone (names), he won’t.”
I have no words to express my outrage. A teacher should never allow bullying. I cannot understand why someone is teaching if they don’t give a crap about the students. Which is what the P.E. teacher’s lack of action says to me. Add to that the bullying was reported to the school district.
I totally get what you are saying but that’s probably a loaded question…or involves a loaded answer. I imagine if the kid is a bully, the parents aren’t much better. And it seems to me, somewhere in the 80s-90s, teachers wanted to be seen as friends versus authority figures, and on the flip side, I think parents started to look down on teachers and say things like, “you can’t talk to my perfect angel that way!!”
I’m not defending the teacher, but who knows what he/she was thinking. I don’t think you can just put the blame on her, but I think you are right in asking why nothing happened. Maybe that same student was bullying her, too.
My daughter is not in school yet, and already I have anxiety over stuff like this.
The school was savvy enough to have a bullying hotline in place, so surely this P.E. teacher was trained to spot and stop bullying. They chose not to. Some P.E. teachers just think it’s part of growing up and will make you a “tougher” athlete. That’s obviously not true.
I was bullied in elementary, jr. high, and the beginning of high school. i was the smaller, weaker kid who was no good at sports, so i was often ridiculed. i couldn’t fight back because i physically couldn’t. there was this one kid who would trip me whenever he got behind me in the hall, to the point where i would go way out of my way to avoid him on my way to a class. he eventually pushed me down a flight of stairs. i didn’t get hurt physically but nearly had a nervous breakdown. my parents eventually intervened and had to threaten to sue the school before any real action was taken. this was back in the mid 80’s and early 90’s; i can’t imagine what it would be like today. i suffered from pretty severe self-esteem issues, and still struggle with bouts of anxiety and depression today. I was in therapy, and remember once finding a few news articles my mom had saved detailing school shootings or of kids bringing guns to school. Scary stuff.
things got better. i got my first real girlfriend in my freshman year of high school, then i forced myself to join the cross country team and the school chorus. I met a lot of kids who were more “like me” and realized that I wasn’t alone. I developed a strong sense of humor. Eventually, the kids who used to pick on me grew out of it, and I’ll never forget hanging out with some of them during Senior Week and them being amazed we all had so much in common.
Today, I’m a reasonably successful underwriter at a job I love and have been at for 12 years. I’m married to an unbelievably understanding woman and we have 2 beautiful girls. I count my blessings every day. I teach my girls to talk to EVERYONE, because everyone needs a friend. I’ll never forget what it was like being bullied, but I realize I could have had it much worse. I don’t dwell on the past and have forgiven the bullies.
What a great story, Louie. I’m really happy things turned out so well for you.
I just have to comment here:
Many people should probably pay particular attention to Louie’s post.
One of my good friends in high school, I to this day remember how we started out as friends. In one of our earlier times hanging out in middle school, he slammed my head into a wall, and nearly knocked me unconscious when I was in 6th grade. The guy clearly did not know how to deal with certain emotional issues he was having. He beat me up quite often when we hung out, or I should call it boys being boys, he somehow got his frustrations out by taking them out on me. But interestingly, what I did was befriend him. I had a history of this. In my Senior year he expressed interest in choir, and I started helping teach him how to sing and we joined the same choir class (I was in Choir for a loooonnngg time) He was practically tone deaf when we started. Some of my first friends I met were people that were more than just a little disturbed. All of them, with the exception of one, ended up changing. How people react to “bullies” creates bullies and is awfully bullying in behavior.
Recently I saw a youtube video after a kid killed herself, with a guy saying that these bullies need to learn consequences, by getting shot in the head, or their @$$es kicked, and essentially any multitude of punishments saying how low the bully was. This is the issue in why bullying isn’t solved. It is usually not quite that severe, but consider what you are willing to think and do to people that you figure wronged you. We should be thinking about how to be good people. Not how to make things right that were done (Justice).
Parents think of bullying in the wrong light. And punishing the bully through the school would make things worse with these “bullies”. They want to be talked up, not talked down, and usually have issues with authority. The best way to get a kid to go crazy is to give him a suspension and send him home to parents that clearly aren’t caring for him/her properly. Punishment won’t have an affect. What they want to hear is “You’re a good kid.” and they want support. They all too often don’t know how to be a part of groups and it is why they bully their way into it. I feel sorry for bullies most of the time. They are usually more alienated than the people they bully.
So when Louie says he befriended some of the bullies, and says he tells his daughters to be nice to everyone, this is the way to stop bullies. To make sure no member of society is without support and life connections.
I still think your answer is assuming a lot. So they have a bullying hotline. That probably means as much to those kids as the pledges to not drink or have sex (D.A.R.E. and what not). And not all PE teachers are like that. Do you know her personally? Again, I’m not saying I’m right or that the teacher isn’t guilty of something, but until people can have a conversation about this without assumptions and stereotypes, we’re not really going to get anywhere.
And Libby, I’m not Agent, nor do I ever try to argue with you….so you don’t have to jump down my throat.
I’m not jumping down your throat. I can disagree with someone civilly and politely. I understand you are giving another side to this, but it was a student that used the bullying hotline to report the abuse so it’s not like they didn’t know it was there and what it was for. In addition, I didn’t say ALL P.E. teachers were like that, thus the use of the word “some” in front of P.E. teachers. I think the teacher, who allegedly witnessed this bullying, is certainly responsible for not intervening or at the very least reporting it. You are free to disagree.
Imagine this Libby, I’m going to agree with you. I was bullied for three years in school by the same group of people. Two in particular. Each day after school let out, I tried to run home to avoid the daily butt kicking. I was a very small kid compared to others my age. As I grew older, I found I couldn’t handle being around groups of people. I did what we were taught to do back then, sucked it up and went on with life. To the people who say bullying isn’t an issue, I say you have no clue what you are talking about. Even though I was a young kid at the time, the scars you carry around for life are beyond explanation. I’m 40 now, with a great career and family. I still cannot be around crowds of people, still wake up at all hours of the night with anxiety attacks and still look over my shoulder constantly when out in public, or even in the office. Could you tell from looking at me now? No. I have 22 years in Martial Arts and am a personal trainer on the side. Does that mean anything after you’ve been bullied? No. No, it does not.
Imagine that UCT. We agree on something. I hate it that you were bullied. I was for a short time because I had to wear a patch over my eye for a while in grade school, but even though I wasn’t “bullied” I never felt like I was a part of the “in” crowd. That has shaped who I am to an extent and is one of the reasons I tend to sway liberal on social issues. I say there should be more acceptance and tolerance in the world so people don’t grow up feeling bad about themselves.
But don’t take my liberal social views as an endorsement of everything this administration does or doesn’t do. It’s not.
Good for you, Louie. I am glad it turned out well for you and your family. Yup, I’ve worn glasses since elementary school, was as skinny as a rail & took a lot of flack. When I stood up to them, I ended up having some additional friends.
the most important lesson I’ve learned is: Things get better, and People Change. It’s easy to think that your life is over when you’re being bullied, and sometimes the hardest thing in the world is getting up in the morning, but if you keep persevering you’ll get through. Also, there’s never anything wrong with having to ask for help.
When I was a freshman in college, I had a pretty big chip on my shoulder from my past. I had some friends, but people could definitely tell that something wasn’t right. One day, a guy asked me, “Dude, why do you have such a big chip on your shoulder? You have everything in the world going for you.” Here, I’d been going through life feeling sorry for myself and believing all the crap that had been said when people were making fun of me, and this random guy called me out on the carpet with that one statement. I don’t remember the guy’s name, but I’ve never forgotten his message.
Awesome!
Good on you, Louie! Oh, and hi Libby. It’s been awhile, way busy and too much travel.
Saw way too much verbal bullying going on when I was a kid. Heck, some of my “friends” ridiculed one of our other “friends” to the point his mom told my mom he cried himself to sleep at night and cried himself awake. That’s the point I realized my bully “friends” needed to shut the f up and if they didn’t, no sense in supporting them anymore. Some of them woke up and are still friends, the others are who knows where. And that’s where I choose to keep them. By the way, the guy who was verbally abused, doing well and is a heck of a dude. Probably a success story like you, Louie.
Hey, Captain. I’ve been missing you and txmouthtx lately. I’ve had to go it alone and it’s wearing me out.
You aren’t in Texas now, are you?
And there we have it…
“. That’s the point I realized my bully “friends” needed to shut the f up and if they didn’t, no sense in supporting them anymore”
I was going to post how there is a bullied type that tends to perpetuate bullying, seeing as the bullier is not a bully typically. They are a damaged person who needs help.
The bullied can sometimes be the type that is polarized, white and black morality, the “I’m better than you SHUT THE F UP” fight. You learned to abandon members of society that don’t do what you want them to do, or are flawed. You became selfish, not selfless. You essentially said to yourself, “if they don’t praise me, they lose me”.
The “I finally realized bullies had to shut the f up or leave” shows a lot about you.
You know what I realized? I realized I had to be nice, or if I couldn’t handle it or the bully didn’t change, be completely nice and not even think down to bullies like your line does.
Quite the ego planet.
What are you talking about? He said if the bullies didn’t stop, he wasn’t going to be friends with them anymore. What’s wrong with that?