Yes we are headed to be like everyone else. The problem is, they can’t pay for it either and their service sucks. So why do we want to head that way. By the way Zimbabwe collapsed and their inflation rate when I was in the neighborhood was 1500% per month. I don’t care what they have, it isn’t working.
Let’s face it, the Feds want faceless bureaucrats to be the “go to” people for insurance not your locally employed agent. The government needs to be the primary soucre for every aspect of healthcare, thus growing the government and exerting as much control over the economy and us poor wage slaves who they feel need to work for them. The system is being turned on its head all under the guise of a “crisis” to further entrench gov in our lives. Will America wake up in time? We will see.
With the reduction in commissions comes a reduction in (1) # of agents willing to work in this market, and/or (2) reduction of services provided. It’s that simple. You get what you pay for or, in this case, what is legislated.
Lets see insurance brokers, Insurance carrier employees, remember the (85% of premium for health costs) requirement. Nurses reduction in staff due to reduction of costs for hospitals (Less doing more)because of reductions in medicare payments. The only thing we get out of this adiministration is class warfare at all of our expense.
Here is how to explain it to the politician. The commissions I earn from the sale and service of health insurance is used to pay taxes, employ one person full time,participate in continuing education classes and to make contributions to political campaigns of my choice. Going forward there will be fewer properly insureds, no employee, no taxes paid for her or on my health commissions, one unemployment for here and a reduced standard of living if she is unable to find employment and no political contributions. Did I mention she is age 61 and makes $45,000 per year. I will survive but this will be a shocker for her. I probably will no longer sell health insurance if I cannot be paid for what I can bring to the table. For those who want to remain in thie health sales business consider a fee based service to assist those in need of a roadmap. Some current laws allow this for the property and casualty business as long as the customer agrees.
THere are NO winners EXCEPT our pathetic leaders in DC – the “Insured Person” looses; the agent/broker looses – and the medical industry as we’ve known it to be will no longer exist as it should, that is, fewer Doc’s; Nurses; attendants etc…probably fewer volunteers that provide a real service to those in hospitals, care facilities etc…this is a very sad sad time for America!
So, what will it take to convince insurers that agents are a worthwhile expenditure and should not be cut? Insurers have the flexibility to decide what they will spend their 15 to 20 percent of non-claims expenses on– shouldn’t agents be able to make a case for themselves with carriers? Seems that’s ht better route than running to Congress. Or do health agenst have no clout with their carriers? I’m asking. I really don’t understand why an insurer would choose to cut off its distribution and service arm.
In the health reform act of 2010, Its 15% and thats it! In that 15% they have to pay all claims handling expenses, overhead expenses and last but not least is profit margin. That leaves about 0% for you and I.
Thank goodness I am not into Health Insurance full time like some agents. How much commission can be paid if the carriers have to spend $.85 of every premium dollar on payments? They also have to pay their overhead and salaries to employees. The agent is being squeezed out and commissions have already been reduced. Why would an agent stay in this line of work for a pittance of a commission? The carriers think they will come out ok because they are in bed with the government and will be subsidized for running the exchanges etc. Why would the CEO of Aetna say they hope Obamacare is not repealed unless his nest is getting feathered? We can’t win in this scenario unless the bill is repealed or defunded or changed dramatically or replaced with one more friendly to agents.
Funding of this country’s healthcare with “insurance” is no longer sustainable as a business model, and certainly not as a commissionable product. Some day, no doubt after we’ve squandered trillions and trillions of dollars and have exhausted all other options, we will adopt single-payer. Like the rest the world has already done.
Health agents need to think of this as an opportunity to improve their financial position.
When a call comes in for a Health Insurance Quote, advise them to buy a life policy instead since you can’t make any money selling Health Insurance and if they think anyone will, they’ll die trying to find someone.
Your happy, big commission on life sale and the health insurance industry is happy because you didn’t add some chronically ill person to their policyholder count.
And the potential insured? They can call the NAIC and ask where they can find an agent who will write a helath insurance policy for them and be happy to not get paid for it.
A quick Google search says Stephen Hemsley – UnitedHealth Group CEO – made $3,241,042 in salary for 2009 with a “bonus” of $10,703,229 for a grand total of $13,944,271 in one year’s compensation.
Maybe Hemsley should share some of his enormous compensation with us brokers through commission instead of buying a fifth home, a third yacht and a miniature giraffe.
WSV has it wrong, all the rest of the world does not have single payer systems. Those that do, like GB are now moving away to includ more private insurer, Germany has a hybrid where insurance can be purchased. Maybe Zimbabwe is what we should shot for, a free for all system with poor mortality and even poorer health care delivery. Blanket statements about the cost and delivery of healthcare using world rankings is a bogus excersize designed to have us think our system is broken. Nice try WSV but your dream has nothing to do with reality.
Just today, Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Georgia sent to all Georgia brokers a letter saying it would reduce its commmission 30% effective 1-1-2011 on individual medical business due to new health care reform forcing it to meet the 80% rule. It is just the start of the end for health insurance brokers in general.
Just try to get into another field. Your resume is full of experience and performance in the “insurance” field, one that has been consistently badgered and villified by every politico with nothing else to do. Pile on those agents and brokers who have been less than honest in dealings with the insured, not to mention the claims department malfeasance. On the other hand, your NEW field is able to hire a youngster(maybe even degreed) with no “BAD HABITS”, not real concept of value and trust, for minimum wage and then hire two, at part time and save lots of money. You may as well get yourself a ski mask, a toy gun and go to the local bodego for some quick cash.
That was somewhat the basis of our founding fathers concept. The problem is that we no longer have well rounded political leaders who understand a whit about research and experimenting. The trial here is “can health care insurance be provided to the masses equitably without excessive costs?” To eliminate the variable of the potential for suitable remuneration for the labors and risks endured by the producer/agent/broker at inception of the ‘trial’ will indeed swamp the trial, deface the market, delude the experimenter, and disappoint the insured. Someone needs to remove health care from the commodity picture and get rid of the torts and 50% of trial lawyers.
Obama is moving us toward a Zimbabwe economy with this scheme. They have been totally broke for several years and have inflation of biblical proportions. They are totally ruined as a country and have no hope for the future? Is this a great model for the US to pursue?
P&C Agent, we are not headed toward Zimbabwe. If you’re not speaking in hyperbole, you are a moron.
Size, population, GDP and historical context are nowhere similar. Like Matt said, we are moving toward a system similar to every other western, industrialized nation.
I suggest you put on your tinfoil hat, pack your ammo and MRE’s and head to the Michigan UP.
Lets see, We invented the airplane, Television, Telephone, Computer and these western countries would still be using pigeons for sending messages instead of emails. We freed all of these european countries you are mentioning about a single payer health plan from tyrants. These same countries have relied on us for their protection from being overrun by communist. Now we have socialist/communist amoungst ourselves pushing for a single payer health plan.
No thanks, I dont think we should follow anything these idiots have done until they prove to us that they are our equal in a economic industrial or innovative area. NO single payer system for me, just about every medical breakthrough in the last 100 years has been developed in the USA. The only thing the Canadians have given us is ICE beer and hockey.
Why do all of the leaders and elites of these nations with single payer systems come to the US for treatment? Huh?
Matt, We do have universal healthcare as no one who enters an ER can be turned away. In case you missed it, the EU is going broke and on the verge of bankruptcy, so your comparison is both timely, instructive and prophetic.
Matt & Laura, you need to do your homework, most countries have a hybrid of private and public handling healthcare, so your SP dream is just a wish for some “social justice” which is an oxymoron in an of itself. By the way, our system cold be considered a hybrid but with one large exception, the private sector is much more involved. And, that is how it should be.
Mexico does have a system very close to your ideal single payer system. May I suggest you go there for your next operation or serious illness treatment.
Laura, If we are indeed moving toward what other industrialized nations are doing on Healthcare, we are in big trouble. I invite you to do some homework and read about how Greece, Portugal, Spain, France, Ireland, UK are all teetering on bankruptcy with all their entitlements including so called Single Payer Healthcare. This is Socialism 101 and it hasn’t ever worked anywhere it has been tried and will surely do the same here in this country.
Yes, the ER’s have to provide remedial treatment to patch up a person. If you do not have the money to pay for your ER visit, you will be hounded and threatened mercilessly by bill collectors, the hospital can put a lien on your property and your credit will be ruined.
Gee, one way to avoid that credit hassle, how about buying insurance at a level of risk you can afford-high deductible-low deductible.
People make choices and choices have consequences. If the gov eliminates the choice and passes the cost off to those who make the right choice, I can’t see how that can be deemed as being “fair to everyone”, the holy grail of all social justice types.
Hope all of you people chiding the uninsured never get laid off and lose their health insurance that same day.
Hope your former boss doesn’t try to weasel out of letting you collect unemployment by lying about why you no longer have a job. Hope if that does happen, you get to see the judge in less than three months, with no money coming in that entire time, while you try to find a new job at age 60!
Shoulda woulda coulda – please don’t be so high and mighty, people are suffering terribly right now.
If you are like most Americans, you lived beyond your means. I always had to explain to my kids why we didn’t have the fancy house or the BMW or this or that because they saw how others lived. I ALWAYS lived below my means and I can afford a BMW but don’t buy one because security was important to me. I am sick to death of hearing that I need to pay more for others and that our government rewards irresponsible consumption.
If you were not one of these, I am sorry for your predicament. But the truth is, many Americans expect someone else to pay for it….mainly those that save and or earn.
Now the value of my lifetime of saving and living conservatively is at risk because of the excesses of others and the failure of our government and our people to save for a rainy day.
I agree with you Brian. I have always lived conservatively although I could have bought a bigger house, driven more expensive cars and saved for a rainy day. People who have maxed their credit cards, taken the expensive vacations and lived beyond their means are really hurting now. What I am most upset about is that my retirement funds are in jeopardy and taxes are going to go up and this oppressive Progressive government is going to redistribute the wealth of this country and make us all poor. They are all a bunch of idiots, don’t listen to the folks and think they know better for us.
With regards to government services, Where did the word entitlement become used for everything that we may want or need.
Lets see I think anyone who lives should have some form of transportation, WHERES MY GOVERNMENT PROVIDED CAR? I think everyone should have a hot meal everyday. WHERES MY GOVERNMENT PROVIDED MIRCROWAVE OVEN? I think everyone should have a roof over their head. WHERES MY GOVERNMENT PROVIDED HOME?
I could go on and on, So why is healthcare any different?
If you want something, you better pay for it or you do not get it. That is America and if you do not like it, MOVE!
You have it all wrong! You must be one of the share everything crowd. Too many people worked and sacrificed to make this a great country and your crowd wants to give it away to the sit on your fat end crowd. No, you are the one that needs to move before the civil war starts!!!!
John, you are naive if you don’t think that can’t happen.
The point is, it’s time to end the entitlement mentality in this country. Government exists at the will and mercy of the people, not the other way around. You would do well to remember that.
Already we have see where an SEIU local in NY has had to drop coverage, thanks to the very plan they supported. Oh, the irony.
If the election proved one thing, it is that the American People did not want this country “fundamentally changed” from a free market Capitalist system to blatant Socialism/Marxism. I have a message for the entitlement people who thinks the government is the provider for every need. Go live in Venezuela, Cuba, Greece, Portugal, Spain, UK,France, Ireland and see how you like it. This is the USA and there has never been a country like it in human history. It may take another election cycle to get rid of the rest of the bad apples in our government, but it will happen and our country restored.
People from other countries used to want to come here because this country offered an opportunity for freedom and to better themselves. Now, they want to come here because we are giving them everything from healthcare to Social Security even if they are illegal. How can we be so stupid? They have found the gold mine and want to take full advantage. The only problem is, there is no more money in the till for all of this.
It’s not all doom and gloom. The individual mandate, substantial tax credits for small businesses and penalties for large employers that do not buy coverage mean lots, lots more business for health insurance brokers in coming years. Carriers may look to cut costs but rising premiums will also mean higher commission dollars. Also the exchanges will pay brokers as well. There are opportunities here for general agents and other agents who hang in there, become proactive and do a good job. Those who simply cry about change will be left behind.
Where are you living? I am an optimist but can’t get by the 75% cut in commissions. What does it matter if they raise the premiums when our commissions are now based on per head versus premium? Maybe the companies in your neighborhood are still paying top dollar, in mine, it is not worth trying to sell or service health insurance. I am in the process of finding out if I can charge a fee for my services. Its not all doom and gloom, just all Washington!
Sorry I didnt emplain myself better Arthur, This legislation is set up to make the carriers fail in their attempt to keep premiums low. If the carriers are unable to do so, They will enact a single payor system, Its in the legislation. Which our socialist President, current Speaker of the House and Senate Majority leader have all said they support entirely and were upset they were not able to get a single payor system.
So your President, Speaker of the House and Senate Majority leader all do not want you to be able to make a living doing what you currently are doing.
Now if you think that the Government will pay you to sell their insurance plan. I have a bridge in Florida I would love to sell to you at a very cheap price.
This line of coverage is dead in 4 years. Don’t expect too many renewals.
Arthur, wake up and smell the coffee. If this law isn’t changed or repealed or defunded, the Health Insurance Industry will be dead on arrival in 14. Maybe you can get a job in the Obama Administration before he gets sent packing in 12 and maybe you can hold onto your bureaucrat job making life and death decisions for old folks. Take a pain pill and go to bed will be the common remedy.
Haven’t taken a vacation in 10 years.
My 20 year old car finally just died.
Helped put through nice kids through college.
Live in a modest house in a fairly nice neighborhood.
Not eligible for COBRA due to the small size of the office from where I was laid off.
The health insurance market is expected to double to roughly $1.6 TRILLION within 10 yrs. The largest companies are already operating in low 80’s loss ratio.
From the side lines it looks like they will be just fine. Just my 2 pennies…
In reviewing all of the comments on this story there needs to be some serious presentstion of ALL the facts on this matter going forward. The info I have received from the companies has been in the form of “here are some voluntary products to sell” and I have received substantial revisions downward of commission schedules. I will look to the professional insurance associations to bring me up to speed on this.
What kind of Koolaide have you been drinking? If this law is so great, why do you think 111 exemptions from it have been filed by corporations, unions etc.? In fact, even the SEIU said they couldn’t afford it and were going to cancel coverage for children under their Group plan. Agents are not going to be able to write coverage for the pittance of commission. This is going to end up with companies writing direct and getting subsidies from the government to do the coverage and agents will be shut out. The end result will be the single payor system that Obama intended all along.
I guess you are right, math can lie. The only health company that is currently operating below 80% LR is Centene, a small insignificant contributor. On average, the industry just has to raise its loss ratio a few points and the premium doubles, how big of an impact will this be to the agents? So they loose a couple of points, there will still be DOUBLE the premium out there. Plus the market will be as hard as Chinese Algebra, so getting new business will be like picking cherries in June.
You could be right, maybe the companies will start writing direct. Maybe Obamacare will bring down the most powerful companies in US history. If it doesn’t… the health market will be the largest insurance market in the US, period. What other LOB is 1.6 trillion dollars annually? Even if the commission rate is only 3%, that will dwarf other lines by far. But, I’m not an expert and only time can tell us how this will play out…
Good question Tom. My original post referenced the 10 yr projection of Health Insurance premiums. According to the National Health Statistics Group, the projected National Health Expenditures in 2019 will be 4.482 Trillion, or 19.3% of GDP.
Regardless of who pays, this will be a tremendous burden on the US economy.
My point was simple, with such a large portion of the US economic resources going to pay for healthcare, there’s plenty of money to go around for those involved in the distribution.
I don’t think the largest Health Insurance companies or the agents/brokers who represent them, will walk away because of an imposed LR that is only a few points higher than their current results. They will find a way around it… inlcude ALE in medical LR, or roll distribution expenses back in fees. If I was making decisions I would aim for sending rebates when the LR is lower than 85% so I could operate at an even 85.
Just a question, can you think of a single industry that accounts for 20% of GDP?
The largest markets will not walk away since they are in bed with the government thieves. They will be subsidized if they lose money on taking on all the pre-existing conditions applicants. The companies will squeeze the agents out and it will all be in the computer for applicants with the exchanges etc. This is just another large entitlement burden for society. It is totally unsustainable just like all the other massive entitlement programs.
Matt, it was sarcasm but do you know what % of GDP the government levys in taxes? It can’t be far off because when I earn a dollar I get 50% of it. Then I spend it & it’s sales taxed at 7 % and then some poor slob pays taxes on it and I would guess it’s taxed 100% by the time it’s changed hands the 3rd or 4th time.
Matt, not for anything but how do you know what I make? You obviously arent an employer so you don’t know about 50%. You don’t consider the 15% (if you are self employed) you pay into SS & medicare a tax?
You are correct that 50% is an exageration but not far off the mark; the point I was making was that that taxes take too much of everyone……how many times do you think a dollar changes hands before it is taxed 100%? You think I am wrong at 4 times?
Brian, your point is well taken about taxes. We are all taxed to death from the income tax and all other taxes such as property, sales on all goods, school districts, county, city etc etc etc. The politicians have their hands in our pockets on just about everything. They should work for TSA since their hands are touching our junk. We can all use a break from the ever growing oppressive governments which are bankrupting the country with all their entitlements.
Really? Really?, you have some good points and I hope you are wrong about the impacts of Obamacare. Now that you mention it, I could see the major writers forcing out agents and paying minimum wage to someone in India to run their software and answer phones…. trying to make a buck, or a billion…
There are some major issues with our current administration comparing us to other countries and overlooking the facts. We have over 300M people and per capita medical spending will reach $13652 in 2019*. There is no nation on earth that will come close to that. The politicians are looking in the wrong direction, they should look at the point of service and try to reduce the cost, then all other numbers would fall in line.
In the meantime, the brokers will continue to make some big dollars – 3 to 5% of a HUGE pie is still some serious coin. I know my premiums are ridiculous!
Again, just my 2 cents.. :)
* Source: Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, Office of the Actuary
Let’s not forget that the annual costs are based on plans with low co-pays and low deductibles. I am afraid that Americans will have to get used to purchasing more high deductible and catastrophic plans to reduce the competition for provider services. Overuse of the system, made worse by Medicare patients kibitzing with each other during weekly doc visits needs to be curtailed. The more “skin” the consumer has in the game, the less they will consume services.
We have become so use to someone else paying the bill that we have lost sight of how much the cost has risen out of control.
Another super point: when we had indemnity plans, it wasn’t unusual to have $500 deds….now people complain about $30 co pays….so you would still be better off now unless you saw your doctor more than 16.6 times a year.
Also forgot to mention on taxes: in NJ top rate is 9% so Matt, some people in NJ do pay 50%. Then add you property tax bill of 16k for a 2500 s.f. home and your point is even more difficult to make. We are overtaxed….end of discussion.
Don’t forget the other “use taxes”-gasoline taxes, taxes on tires, on your phone (Gore’s internet tax), tolls, annual excise taxes on your car, etc etc.
I think we all are feeling the pain of “being nibbled to death by ducks”, it doesn’t hurt all the much, but in the end, your still dead.
Unfortunately, our kids, grandkid, and great grandkids get the vicarious pleasure of receiving some of the pain since we have passed the duck, so to speak.
Good points Tom. The American People just repudiated the Progressive Socialist agenda of rampant spending and taxation on 11-2. Whether we get action out of the new Congress is open to conjecture. I would argue that their agenda is what needs to die by a thousand cuts in spending. The problem is not the amount of the revenue, but wasteful unwise spending by politicians of both parties and at every level of government. Government is consuming our dollars so there is no money for the private sector to grow or hire. How do we as businessmen create jobs and more taxpayers when we are oppressed and taxed to death? Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid need to be put in an asylum for the criminally insane.
Spending cuts should begin with a freeze on Fed employment followed by the elimination of the 1970s new E “Departments” such as Education, Energy, and the EPA. We can then move on to decertifying all public sector unions,including teacher’s unions, thus taking away the dues used to lobby “taxpayer” reprsentatives for more members, pay and benefits, who, in turn, increase the dues used for further lobbying.
Unions are a blight on our society. They have their cancerous tentacles deeply imbedded in business and government. Their generous pensions, wages, health insurance make our businesses uncompetitive with the rest of the world. Their work rules are not productive as well. They all need to be decertified and banished permanently. States that have right to work have a much better business climate than union controlled states and these states have a much better government that is not bankrupt like the Eastern states and West Coast.
Sure, Tom…decertify the public unions and then prevent union PACs from garnering dollars to make contributions….meanwhile leaving the corporations free to spend at will as our Supremes have allowed them (and anonymously, to boot) and as we saw in the last election where that devil Rove controlled all the bucks (not elected by anyone, him, I might add) and you have a recipe for sheer disaster for the middle class and for the lwoer class.
What the hell are you thinking? Unless you circumscribe the unequal access and influence of all power players driven by their ability to deliver campaign bucks to the venal congressment, you create a system in serious imbalance.
And I find it interesting that all you booster club memebers for big business seem to imply that given the option to make a few bucks, the large health corps will cut you off at the knees by reducing commissions…in fact, they already have, you state apparently before the “fact”…so that leaves me with a VERY warm and fuzzy feeling about the corprate agenda. Just think of how much bigger the big dudes bonuses will be when they shave a few points off the commission levels…I can see it now…oh the beauty of corporate greed!!!!!!
I specifically mentioned PUBLIC unions, not private. Having PUBLIC unions use their money to lobby the PUBLIC is just crazy. These contribution have nothing to do with fighting your bogey man, big business. They are in the business of pay and benefits for PUBLIC servants, not private corporation employees. Just ask your hero, FDR. It is a recipe for the pension and healthcare liabilities that have bankrupt the big states and also burdened the Feds.
Just how much free speech, in the form of contributions, do you want to limit? That is the nexus of the argument. Should corps, which are made up of individual citzens, have their speech hobbled?
As for corps, you think they all make money. Well guess what, over 40,000 corps failed last year and filed for bankruptcy.
Your hatred of “big business” is clouding your judgment. By the way, which entity has caused more death and destruction in the world, big business or big socialistic/statist/fascist/communist controlled countries? If you ponder that for a moment, you might regain your perspective.
Tom, you can’t reason with Tiresis any more than Cassandra on previous blogs. He is the personification of Big Government, Socialist philosophy. Business is what makes the wheels go around in this country. When we have a combination of government and unions who are anti business, that is a recipe for disaster. Is it any wonder that our economy is in the shape it is in?
There you go, Overtaxed, equating what I call social responsibility to my fellow citizens as socialism…and then you revert to your tired and inaccurate comparison to nazism/fascism, etc.
Yes, big business and business is important, but it is not the end point. The reason it exists (to me) is to provide its workers with decent livlihoods and its customers with value and its shareholders and employees with fair returns on their investments. It does not exist in a vacuum, but for what it can ethically and respnsibily provide. We have moved past that point as we have seen with the venality of the hedge fund dudes, with the unparalled acces certain segments (like the goldman Sachs’s) have to our lawmakers.
And Tom, there is something wrong with corps having the same rights as natural citizens; the “citizen shareholders” already have one vote…by banding together to bring excess and exorbitant dollars to bear on our lawmakers, they upset the one man one vote equations way too much.
Insofar as you have stated PUBLIC unions, I tend to agree. However, you have encouraged your cheering section to condemn “all unions” which have “ruined” this country…another matter altogether.
There are ways to deliver the social programs and social safety nets without bankrupting this country; we have only to look at special interst tax loopholes, subsidies, the much lighter burden of taxes placed on those who can afford it than those that are less able. Of the 47% in this contry that paid no income taxes at all this year and last, two of those were GOP election hopefuls who are, in actuality, millionaires. They claimed business reverses and therefor paid nothing, yet still live a very upper middle class lifestyle and also take money from the public as they are legislators. These were the GOP candidates who wanted to end unemployment, repeal healthcare, and in general, gut all social programs. And this is far, why?
Tiresis, Your brain is overloaded with numerous inaccuracies and spewing Socialism with every sentence. Perhaps you need a vacation in Venezuela so you can see first hand what happens in a society where the government provides everything for their citizens and therefore controls everything. Nothing works and the people are all poor except for the ruling elite class. This country needs to “gut” as you say it numerous social programs which have drained the economy and only make the folks more dependent on government. Personal responsibility and work ethic is what is needed to get the country back on track.
So everyone who disagrees with you is a socialist? You are an idiot. The REAL debate is at what point do we extend the safety nets to our fellow citizens?
As always, neither you or Tom has answered or responded in any sane, rational, educated sense to my question: Why are you always looking to gut the programs that help the little guy and the small business owner yet fail to even recoignize the “socialism” for the large corps and the wealthy? To what do you attribute the steady and constant erosion of the middle class this past decade? How do you respond to the continuing concentration of wealth in this country?
Do you even have a brain to respond? These are serious questions. if you send back some drivel about socialism, you are truly a fool…………
You made my point Tiresis. Since when has the government helped Small Business? Have they reduced our taxes? Are they burdening us with more regulation and Obamacare? Have they done anything to incentivize small business to hire or grow? The middle class has eroded for one reason, big government, big spending and instituting Progressive Socialist policies which are slowly eating away at this great country. I will agree with you on one point. The biggest companies are in bed with this government and it will be to their detriment in the long run.
Venting your frustration over your lack of facts and your wishes is not debating the merits. As the saying goes, you are entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. The concentration of income and/or wealth is and has been a liberal canard designed to fuel the furor of the masses. Unfortunately, Tiresis, you cannot resist the bait.
As for a reasoned response to your quest to spend every dime in the treasury to help our fellow man, I suggest we do some reverse engineering and first figure out what we can afford and how best to assist our “poor” without bankrupting our society. Since we have spent wildly over the last 60 years, including 1 TRILLION dollars on the Great Society, we know what is ineffective and that is giving people little incentive to try and achieve a better life. So let’s focus on expanding opportunity by reduciing regulation and taxes and encouraging those at the bottom to take back personal responsibility by not looking to the government for answers to all the problems they face.
I am not talking about the physically disabled, the mentally affected, or those who absolutely cannot fend for themselves. There are plenty of programs that are available for them.
Our differences have and will continue to be the breadth of your compassion, the cost of your compassion, and the bottom threshold for your compassion. So, you tell me, how much is a living wage? How much “welfare” in terms of annual dollars given to the poor will make you happy. How much should the average poor person receive in total dollars, grants, payments, susidies, for your safety net. $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 and how do you propose we pay for this new amount when multiples of that have been spent and now show up in TRILLION dollar deficits which must be paid for in addtion to these new entitlements. You do realize that 37 cents of every dollar the Fed now spend is gathered from borrowing and that the payment on the interest alone for the debt, not the annual deficit, will consume nearly 100% of the annual review by as early as 15 years from now. And that doesn’t count the 45-50 TRILLION “off the book debt” for Social Security and Medicare.
So your discussion about the safety net should be tempered with that knowledge or you are just being theoretical rather than serious.
Your compassion for the lower and middle class rings very hollow indeed while you rave on about what we can do for the little guy. Well, what we can do is try to disarm the debt time bomb and make future middle and lower classers lives infinately better than the will be if we don’t act responsibly now, regardless of the short term pain that might occur by paring back the safety net to an amount that helps as much as we can with the limited resources available to us.
So, bleating about compassion has its price, one that you care to ignore while posturing as someone who is for the little guy. Again, reality bites, doesn’t it!
Future interst payments 12-15 years will consume all (100%) of the annual revenue, leaving us to borrow more to cover our annual spending requirements, including entitlements and DISCRETIONARY spending.
Tom, I wish I could be as eloquent as you are to answer Tiresis rantings, but it would be useless. While he rants on emotion like most liberal bloggers, you present the facts and I am sure he won’t like it one bit. When a liberal can’t win on the issues, they will resort to name calling, class warfare or racism which are their favorites.
Tom, just because you state your “facts” with authority and eloquence does not make them true. What about “middle class share of the economic pie” is not true?
and what about the 1.1 trillion in special tax concessions granted…much of which goes to special interest corporations? Why do you have such “compassion” for the fatter cats?
Betcha I could find a lot of money in the tax code…you crab about the 2400 page health care bill but not about the tax codes? You think I have been propagandized….look in the mirror, Boyo.
No ones facts are as good as yours? No one else cares about the deficit but you? The only way to bring spending and deficits under control is to gut social programs? COME ON…are you Karl Rove in anonymous disguise? or the CEO of Goldman Sachs? Do dish, Tommy.
Either you are Scrooge masquerading in an intelligent persons clothes, or you are a fool.
Instead of gutting, why don’t we try cleaning up our tax codes? Instead of gutting, why don’t we try to clean up fraud, much of which is carried on by small businessmen? Instead of whining about illegal immigrants and what they get, have the guts to pass laws to stop them from receiving social benefits…AND have the guts to SIGNIFICANTLY FINE businesses that hire them instead of the little love slaps on the wrist?Why is defense off the table? Defense is 20% (I believe, or close to) of our budget, but we don’t get that one on the table when no such expert as the Sec of Defense want to cashier un needed and un warranted programs? COME ON. GET SERIOUS.
Where is your hue and cry on that? NO..just GUT, GUT, GUT. You should be a butcher.
If you remember, and I am sure you do although you probably will not acknowlege, part of these tax cuts that Obama wanted WAS for small business. You will also remember that small business owners were screaming about healthcare costs and inability to get decent cost health insurance for themsleves as well as their employees this past decade and a half…that was part of the impetus…that the healthcare cost burdens
were killing them and causing lack of competitiveness. Well, your right wing boys wouldn’t play nice so you got what you got…and now they are screaming out of the other side of their mouths…what did they want…a free ride? I suspect so. HYPOCRITS.
Eloquence is no excuse for blindness. You are not fair in your assessment of how we should pay for these programs and you are certainly not fair in your choice of things to cut….excuse me…GUT.
Until you seriously look at all sides of the govt give aways, you cannot be taken as in any way credible.
Tiresis, you are the poster child for Media Matters or Moveon.org with all your wild name calling and innacurate statements. Tom handed you your head with his facts and you couldn’t handle it.
Cass, it is hard to answer a reply laced with non sequiturs and disjointed meanderings but here is the simple fact, basic economics will be what GUTS safety net programs, not me. Like it or not, you will be forced to determine priorities in which “safety nets” get the least in cuts, which suffer the most, and which must be defunded. That is the realitiy I have tried to bring to your attention.
What I have been met with are accusations that try to cast you as sublimely sensitive and realists as polyhedrons with no concept of good/evil or right/wrong.
You can bloviate all you want about big business, small business and the fortunes of life being unfair but you will soon have to focus on what we can afford and how best to help those who really and truly need help. You won’t be able to extract what you desire from the upper 2% or corporations, so I would encourage you to broaden your perspective and focus on cutting government spending and letting the private sector expand, thereby increasing gov revenue. We arent’ going to get out of this mess without working on both ends of the spectrum.
I have mentioned before that what is needed is a balanced budget amendment, a freeze on federal worker hiring and pay, decertifying the public sector unions, eliminating the Fed Dept of Education, combining Interior and Agriculture, and cutting 5% of the defense budget in past posts.
We will also have to tackle the “off the books” entitlements which means, means testing for benefits, raising the retirement age, removing the contribution cap on annual income.
We should also go to a three tiered flat tax and eliminate the mortgage exemption and all other deductions for EVERYONE. That means an elimination of the “earned income tax credit” which is a euphamism for welfare. It makes no sense that someone who didn’t pay income tax to receive a “refund”.
If you can wrap your mind around making specific changes rather than reverting to shotgunning your thoughts, we might get somewhere.
I like your ideas Tom. Of course, they make too much sense for our Progressive friends who can’t get their mind right to accept the logic. I particularly like the idea of consolidation of departments in the Federal Government since they often duplicate duties and are extremely wasteful. Along with Education which is a farce which caters to Teachers Unions, why do we need Energy/Interior separate? They do a lot of the same things at our expense. Why do we need Commerce? Has this lovely department promoted free enterprise in this country? All of these departments have numerous sub agencies to carry out policy. This government needs to be reigned in and reduced for the long term health of the country. They are spending us into oblivion.
OT, In addition to the Dept of Education, we could also look at getting rid of the other departments which came to life in the 1970s, Energy and the EPA. Coincidentally, teachers unions began their infamous rise to power also in the 70s. Return with me to those thrilling days of yesteryear, when the 70s crowd was anti-establishment and untursting of anyone over 30 and then compare that the face slapping fits of horror and the high pitched shrieks of pain that those “free thinkers” and “free lover” types will be making when they read this post.
Funny, how the Tepee living communal types now embrace everything they stood against lo those many years ago.
Cass, hang onto your birkenstocks and your peace sign bandana, its going to be a bumpy ride.
So Cass is masquerading as Tiresis. I knew the posts made seemed to be out of her playbook. These hippies are of the age now that many of them have worked their way into government positions and their ill conceived, marijuana influenced ideas are what has led to many of the problems we are facing. Our President was gritting his teeth when he had to make the announcement about the tax cuts. His base is ready to hang him out to dry. That is what he gets for getting into bed with them. He has painted himself into a corner and is likely to be challenged in the Democratic primaries now. I think he is officially a one termer now and all we have to do is be vigilant and not let him do further damage for the next 2 years.
Yes we are headed to be like everyone else. The problem is, they can’t pay for it either and their service sucks. So why do we want to head that way. By the way Zimbabwe collapsed and their inflation rate when I was in the neighborhood was 1500% per month. I don’t care what they have, it isn’t working.
Let’s face it, the Feds want faceless bureaucrats to be the “go to” people for insurance not your locally employed agent. The government needs to be the primary soucre for every aspect of healthcare, thus growing the government and exerting as much control over the economy and us poor wage slaves who they feel need to work for them. The system is being turned on its head all under the guise of a “crisis” to further entrench gov in our lives. Will America wake up in time? We will see.
With the reduction in commissions comes a reduction in (1) # of agents willing to work in this market, and/or (2) reduction of services provided. It’s that simple. You get what you pay for or, in this case, what is legislated.
Wait a minute! Are you saying there’s a downside to Obamacare? I hope you didn’t use your real name.
Lets see insurance brokers, Insurance carrier employees, remember the (85% of premium for health costs) requirement. Nurses reduction in staff due to reduction of costs for hospitals (Less doing more)because of reductions in medicare payments. The only thing we get out of this adiministration is class warfare at all of our expense.
OBAMA THE JOB KILLER!
Here is how to explain it to the politician. The commissions I earn from the sale and service of health insurance is used to pay taxes, employ one person full time,participate in continuing education classes and to make contributions to political campaigns of my choice. Going forward there will be fewer properly insureds, no employee, no taxes paid for her or on my health commissions, one unemployment for here and a reduced standard of living if she is unable to find employment and no political contributions. Did I mention she is age 61 and makes $45,000 per year. I will survive but this will be a shocker for her. I probably will no longer sell health insurance if I cannot be paid for what I can bring to the table. For those who want to remain in thie health sales business consider a fee based service to assist those in need of a roadmap. Some current laws allow this for the property and casualty business as long as the customer agrees.
Remember we are spreading the wealth, Yours, to everyone else who does not have a job! Pretty soon no one will have a job.
Are you sure it’s UNintended?
Are you sure it’s UNintended?
State regulators DO NOT give two $hits about Brokers. Period.
THere are NO winners EXCEPT our pathetic leaders in DC – the “Insured Person” looses; the agent/broker looses – and the medical industry as we’ve known it to be will no longer exist as it should, that is, fewer Doc’s; Nurses; attendants etc…probably fewer volunteers that provide a real service to those in hospitals, care facilities etc…this is a very sad sad time for America!
So, what will it take to convince insurers that agents are a worthwhile expenditure and should not be cut? Insurers have the flexibility to decide what they will spend their 15 to 20 percent of non-claims expenses on– shouldn’t agents be able to make a case for themselves with carriers? Seems that’s ht better route than running to Congress. Or do health agenst have no clout with their carriers? I’m asking. I really don’t understand why an insurer would choose to cut off its distribution and service arm.
In the health reform act of 2010, Its 15% and thats it! In that 15% they have to pay all claims handling expenses, overhead expenses and last but not least is profit margin. That leaves about 0% for you and I.
Thank goodness I am not into Health Insurance full time like some agents. How much commission can be paid if the carriers have to spend $.85 of every premium dollar on payments? They also have to pay their overhead and salaries to employees. The agent is being squeezed out and commissions have already been reduced. Why would an agent stay in this line of work for a pittance of a commission? The carriers think they will come out ok because they are in bed with the government and will be subsidized for running the exchanges etc. Why would the CEO of Aetna say they hope Obamacare is not repealed unless his nest is getting feathered? We can’t win in this scenario unless the bill is repealed or defunded or changed dramatically or replaced with one more friendly to agents.
Funding of this country’s healthcare with “insurance” is no longer sustainable as a business model, and certainly not as a commissionable product. Some day, no doubt after we’ve squandered trillions and trillions of dollars and have exhausted all other options, we will adopt single-payer. Like the rest the world has already done.
Health agents need to think of this as an opportunity to improve their financial position.
When a call comes in for a Health Insurance Quote, advise them to buy a life policy instead since you can’t make any money selling Health Insurance and if they think anyone will, they’ll die trying to find someone.
Your happy, big commission on life sale and the health insurance industry is happy because you didn’t add some chronically ill person to their policyholder count.
And the potential insured? They can call the NAIC and ask where they can find an agent who will write a helath insurance policy for them and be happy to not get paid for it.
A quick Google search says Stephen Hemsley – UnitedHealth Group CEO – made $3,241,042 in salary for 2009 with a “bonus” of $10,703,229 for a grand total of $13,944,271 in one year’s compensation.
Maybe Hemsley should share some of his enormous compensation with us brokers through commission instead of buying a fifth home, a third yacht and a miniature giraffe.
WSV has it wrong, all the rest of the world does not have single payer systems. Those that do, like GB are now moving away to includ more private insurer, Germany has a hybrid where insurance can be purchased. Maybe Zimbabwe is what we should shot for, a free for all system with poor mortality and even poorer health care delivery. Blanket statements about the cost and delivery of healthcare using world rankings is a bogus excersize designed to have us think our system is broken. Nice try WSV but your dream has nothing to do with reality.
Actually, every western, industrialized nation — except the U.S. — does offer universal healthcare to its citizens.
Any German who gets cancer, gets chemo. That’s not true here in America.
Just today, Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Georgia sent to all Georgia brokers a letter saying it would reduce its commmission 30% effective 1-1-2011 on individual medical business due to new health care reform forcing it to meet the 80% rule. It is just the start of the end for health insurance brokers in general.
Just try to get into another field. Your resume is full of experience and performance in the “insurance” field, one that has been consistently badgered and villified by every politico with nothing else to do. Pile on those agents and brokers who have been less than honest in dealings with the insured, not to mention the claims department malfeasance. On the other hand, your NEW field is able to hire a youngster(maybe even degreed) with no “BAD HABITS”, not real concept of value and trust, for minimum wage and then hire two, at part time and save lots of money. You may as well get yourself a ski mask, a toy gun and go to the local bodego for some quick cash.
That was somewhat the basis of our founding fathers concept. The problem is that we no longer have well rounded political leaders who understand a whit about research and experimenting. The trial here is “can health care insurance be provided to the masses equitably without excessive costs?” To eliminate the variable of the potential for suitable remuneration for the labors and risks endured by the producer/agent/broker at inception of the ‘trial’ will indeed swamp the trial, deface the market, delude the experimenter, and disappoint the insured. Someone needs to remove health care from the commodity picture and get rid of the torts and 50% of trial lawyers.
Obama is moving us toward a Zimbabwe economy with this scheme. They have been totally broke for several years and have inflation of biblical proportions. They are totally ruined as a country and have no hope for the future? Is this a great model for the US to pursue?
P&C Agent, we are not headed toward Zimbabwe. If you’re not speaking in hyperbole, you are a moron.
Size, population, GDP and historical context are nowhere similar. Like Matt said, we are moving toward a system similar to every other western, industrialized nation.
I suggest you put on your tinfoil hat, pack your ammo and MRE’s and head to the Michigan UP.
Its not that liberals do not know much. In fact, The problems is that they know a great deal about what isnt so.
“Ronald Regan”
Socialism is not for me! How about you?
Lets see, We invented the airplane, Television, Telephone, Computer and these western countries would still be using pigeons for sending messages instead of emails. We freed all of these european countries you are mentioning about a single payer health plan from tyrants. These same countries have relied on us for their protection from being overrun by communist. Now we have socialist/communist amoungst ourselves pushing for a single payer health plan.
No thanks, I dont think we should follow anything these idiots have done until they prove to us that they are our equal in a economic industrial or innovative area. NO single payer system for me, just about every medical breakthrough in the last 100 years has been developed in the USA. The only thing the Canadians have given us is ICE beer and hockey.
Why do all of the leaders and elites of these nations with single payer systems come to the US for treatment? Huh?
Matt, We do have universal healthcare as no one who enters an ER can be turned away. In case you missed it, the EU is going broke and on the verge of bankruptcy, so your comparison is both timely, instructive and prophetic.
Matt & Laura, you need to do your homework, most countries have a hybrid of private and public handling healthcare, so your SP dream is just a wish for some “social justice” which is an oxymoron in an of itself. By the way, our system cold be considered a hybrid but with one large exception, the private sector is much more involved. And, that is how it should be.
Mexico does have a system very close to your ideal single payer system. May I suggest you go there for your next operation or serious illness treatment.
Laura, If we are indeed moving toward what other industrialized nations are doing on Healthcare, we are in big trouble. I invite you to do some homework and read about how Greece, Portugal, Spain, France, Ireland, UK are all teetering on bankruptcy with all their entitlements including so called Single Payer Healthcare. This is Socialism 101 and it hasn’t ever worked anywhere it has been tried and will surely do the same here in this country.
Yes, the ER’s have to provide remedial treatment to patch up a person. If you do not have the money to pay for your ER visit, you will be hounded and threatened mercilessly by bill collectors, the hospital can put a lien on your property and your credit will be ruined.
Gee, one way to avoid that credit hassle, how about buying insurance at a level of risk you can afford-high deductible-low deductible.
People make choices and choices have consequences. If the gov eliminates the choice and passes the cost off to those who make the right choice, I can’t see how that can be deemed as being “fair to everyone”, the holy grail of all social justice types.
You own property but refuse to buy insurance? Oh wait, I should buy that for you. Sorry, my bad.
Hope all of you people chiding the uninsured never get laid off and lose their health insurance that same day.
Hope your former boss doesn’t try to weasel out of letting you collect unemployment by lying about why you no longer have a job. Hope if that does happen, you get to see the judge in less than three months, with no money coming in that entire time, while you try to find a new job at age 60!
Shoulda woulda coulda – please don’t be so high and mighty, people are suffering terribly right now.
If you are like most Americans, you lived beyond your means. I always had to explain to my kids why we didn’t have the fancy house or the BMW or this or that because they saw how others lived. I ALWAYS lived below my means and I can afford a BMW but don’t buy one because security was important to me. I am sick to death of hearing that I need to pay more for others and that our government rewards irresponsible consumption.
If you were not one of these, I am sorry for your predicament. But the truth is, many Americans expect someone else to pay for it….mainly those that save and or earn.
Now the value of my lifetime of saving and living conservatively is at risk because of the excesses of others and the failure of our government and our people to save for a rainy day.
1/50MM, sound like COBRA was the least of your worries. Good luck and best wishes for a better New Year.
I agree with you Brian. I have always lived conservatively although I could have bought a bigger house, driven more expensive cars and saved for a rainy day. People who have maxed their credit cards, taken the expensive vacations and lived beyond their means are really hurting now. What I am most upset about is that my retirement funds are in jeopardy and taxes are going to go up and this oppressive Progressive government is going to redistribute the wealth of this country and make us all poor. They are all a bunch of idiots, don’t listen to the folks and think they know better for us.
With regards to government services, Where did the word entitlement become used for everything that we may want or need.
Lets see I think anyone who lives should have some form of transportation, WHERES MY GOVERNMENT PROVIDED CAR? I think everyone should have a hot meal everyday. WHERES MY GOVERNMENT PROVIDED MIRCROWAVE OVEN? I think everyone should have a roof over their head. WHERES MY GOVERNMENT PROVIDED HOME?
I could go on and on, So why is healthcare any different?
If you want something, you better pay for it or you do not get it. That is America and if you do not like it, MOVE!
Jim, you’re the one who hates government services and the way things work in this country. Why don’t you move?
Don’t like the new healthcare law, just move.
Don’t like unemployment insurance, just move.
What’s good for the goose…
Johnboy,
You have it all wrong! You must be one of the share everything crowd. Too many people worked and sacrificed to make this a great country and your crowd wants to give it away to the sit on your fat end crowd. No, you are the one that needs to move before the civil war starts!!!!
Civil war? You’re silly.
The civil war will start when the entitled stop recieving entitlements or the over taxed stop accepting overtaxation.
John, you are naive if you don’t think that can’t happen.
The point is, it’s time to end the entitlement mentality in this country. Government exists at the will and mercy of the people, not the other way around. You would do well to remember that.
Already we have see where an SEIU local in NY has had to drop coverage, thanks to the very plan they supported. Oh, the irony.
If the election proved one thing, it is that the American People did not want this country “fundamentally changed” from a free market Capitalist system to blatant Socialism/Marxism. I have a message for the entitlement people who thinks the government is the provider for every need. Go live in Venezuela, Cuba, Greece, Portugal, Spain, UK,France, Ireland and see how you like it. This is the USA and there has never been a country like it in human history. It may take another election cycle to get rid of the rest of the bad apples in our government, but it will happen and our country restored.
“That’s all I can stands and I can’t stands no more!”
Why do people still migrate here when no one wants to leave? It isn’t because this place is bad but it is getting there.
The next election may help.
People from other countries used to want to come here because this country offered an opportunity for freedom and to better themselves. Now, they want to come here because we are giving them everything from healthcare to Social Security even if they are illegal. How can we be so stupid? They have found the gold mine and want to take full advantage. The only problem is, there is no more money in the till for all of this.
It’s not all doom and gloom. The individual mandate, substantial tax credits for small businesses and penalties for large employers that do not buy coverage mean lots, lots more business for health insurance brokers in coming years. Carriers may look to cut costs but rising premiums will also mean higher commission dollars. Also the exchanges will pay brokers as well. There are opportunities here for general agents and other agents who hang in there, become proactive and do a good job. Those who simply cry about change will be left behind.
Where are you living? I am an optimist but can’t get by the 75% cut in commissions. What does it matter if they raise the premiums when our commissions are now based on per head versus premium? Maybe the companies in your neighborhood are still paying top dollar, in mine, it is not worth trying to sell or service health insurance. I am in the process of finding out if I can charge a fee for my services. Its not all doom and gloom, just all Washington!
There is no future in selling health benefits now that this legislation has passed.
Your job is just another casualty in the Obama administrations “fundamental change of our country”.
Unemployment 9.6 and climbing!
Sorry I didnt emplain myself better Arthur, This legislation is set up to make the carriers fail in their attempt to keep premiums low. If the carriers are unable to do so, They will enact a single payor system, Its in the legislation. Which our socialist President, current Speaker of the House and Senate Majority leader have all said they support entirely and were upset they were not able to get a single payor system.
So your President, Speaker of the House and Senate Majority leader all do not want you to be able to make a living doing what you currently are doing.
Now if you think that the Government will pay you to sell their insurance plan. I have a bridge in Florida I would love to sell to you at a very cheap price.
This line of coverage is dead in 4 years. Don’t expect too many renewals.
Arthur, wake up and smell the coffee. If this law isn’t changed or repealed or defunded, the Health Insurance Industry will be dead on arrival in 14. Maybe you can get a job in the Obama Administration before he gets sent packing in 12 and maybe you can hold onto your bureaucrat job making life and death decisions for old folks. Take a pain pill and go to bed will be the common remedy.
Haven’t taken a vacation in 10 years.
My 20 year old car finally just died.
Helped put through nice kids through college.
Live in a modest house in a fairly nice neighborhood.
Not eligible for COBRA due to the small size of the office from where I was laid off.
The health insurance market is expected to double to roughly $1.6 TRILLION within 10 yrs. The largest companies are already operating in low 80’s loss ratio.
From the side lines it looks like they will be just fine. Just my 2 pennies…
In reviewing all of the comments on this story there needs to be some serious presentstion of ALL the facts on this matter going forward. The info I have received from the companies has been in the form of “here are some voluntary products to sell” and I have received substantial revisions downward of commission schedules. I will look to the professional insurance associations to bring me up to speed on this.
What kind of Koolaide have you been drinking? If this law is so great, why do you think 111 exemptions from it have been filed by corporations, unions etc.? In fact, even the SEIU said they couldn’t afford it and were going to cancel coverage for children under their Group plan. Agents are not going to be able to write coverage for the pittance of commission. This is going to end up with companies writing direct and getting subsidies from the government to do the coverage and agents will be shut out. The end result will be the single payor system that Obama intended all along.
I guess you are right, math can lie. The only health company that is currently operating below 80% LR is Centene, a small insignificant contributor. On average, the industry just has to raise its loss ratio a few points and the premium doubles, how big of an impact will this be to the agents? So they loose a couple of points, there will still be DOUBLE the premium out there. Plus the market will be as hard as Chinese Algebra, so getting new business will be like picking cherries in June.
You could be right, maybe the companies will start writing direct. Maybe Obamacare will bring down the most powerful companies in US history. If it doesn’t… the health market will be the largest insurance market in the US, period. What other LOB is 1.6 trillion dollars annually? Even if the commission rate is only 3%, that will dwarf other lines by far. But, I’m not an expert and only time can tell us how this will play out…
Isn’t 1.6T the gross amount of the HEALTHCARE industry, of which the INSURANCE industry is only a small part. Just fact checking.
Good question Tom. My original post referenced the 10 yr projection of Health Insurance premiums. According to the National Health Statistics Group, the projected National Health Expenditures in 2019 will be 4.482 Trillion, or 19.3% of GDP.
Regardless of who pays, this will be a tremendous burden on the US economy.
My point was simple, with such a large portion of the US economic resources going to pay for healthcare, there’s plenty of money to go around for those involved in the distribution.
I don’t think the largest Health Insurance companies or the agents/brokers who represent them, will walk away because of an imposed LR that is only a few points higher than their current results. They will find a way around it… inlcude ALE in medical LR, or roll distribution expenses back in fees. If I was making decisions I would aim for sending rebates when the LR is lower than 85% so I could operate at an even 85.
Just a question, can you think of a single industry that accounts for 20% of GDP?
I meant to say “include LAE”
The largest markets will not walk away since they are in bed with the government thieves. They will be subsidized if they lose money on taking on all the pre-existing conditions applicants. The companies will squeeze the agents out and it will all be in the computer for applicants with the exchanges etc. This is just another large entitlement burden for society. It is totally unsustainable just like all the other massive entitlement programs.
“Just a question, can you think of a single industry that accounts for 20% of GDP?”
The US government.
Brian, do you know what GDP means?
Matt, it was sarcasm but do you know what % of GDP the government levys in taxes? It can’t be far off because when I earn a dollar I get 50% of it. Then I spend it & it’s sales taxed at 7 % and then some poor slob pays taxes on it and I would guess it’s taxed 100% by the time it’s changed hands the 3rd or 4th time.
That’s not really true either. The highest income tax is 35%, and that’s on the income exceeding $373,650).
If you are like most middle class Americans, you make between $34,000 and $82,400. In that case, your income above $8,750 is being taxed at 25%.
Nobody gets their income taxed at 50%, like you allege.
But I get it, you don’t like taxes.
Matt, not for anything but how do you know what I make? You obviously arent an employer so you don’t know about 50%. You don’t consider the 15% (if you are self employed) you pay into SS & medicare a tax?
You are correct that 50% is an exageration but not far off the mark; the point I was making was that that taxes take too much of everyone……how many times do you think a dollar changes hands before it is taxed 100%? You think I am wrong at 4 times?
Brian, your point is well taken about taxes. We are all taxed to death from the income tax and all other taxes such as property, sales on all goods, school districts, county, city etc etc etc. The politicians have their hands in our pockets on just about everything. They should work for TSA since their hands are touching our junk. We can all use a break from the ever growing oppressive governments which are bankrupting the country with all their entitlements.
Really? Really?, you have some good points and I hope you are wrong about the impacts of Obamacare. Now that you mention it, I could see the major writers forcing out agents and paying minimum wage to someone in India to run their software and answer phones…. trying to make a buck, or a billion…
There are some major issues with our current administration comparing us to other countries and overlooking the facts. We have over 300M people and per capita medical spending will reach $13652 in 2019*. There is no nation on earth that will come close to that. The politicians are looking in the wrong direction, they should look at the point of service and try to reduce the cost, then all other numbers would fall in line.
In the meantime, the brokers will continue to make some big dollars – 3 to 5% of a HUGE pie is still some serious coin. I know my premiums are ridiculous!
Again, just my 2 cents.. :)
* Source: Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, Office of the Actuary
Let’s not forget that the annual costs are based on plans with low co-pays and low deductibles. I am afraid that Americans will have to get used to purchasing more high deductible and catastrophic plans to reduce the competition for provider services. Overuse of the system, made worse by Medicare patients kibitzing with each other during weekly doc visits needs to be curtailed. The more “skin” the consumer has in the game, the less they will consume services.
We have become so use to someone else paying the bill that we have lost sight of how much the cost has risen out of control.
Another super point: when we had indemnity plans, it wasn’t unusual to have $500 deds….now people complain about $30 co pays….so you would still be better off now unless you saw your doctor more than 16.6 times a year.
Also forgot to mention on taxes: in NJ top rate is 9% so Matt, some people in NJ do pay 50%. Then add you property tax bill of 16k for a 2500 s.f. home and your point is even more difficult to make. We are overtaxed….end of discussion.
Don’t forget the other “use taxes”-gasoline taxes, taxes on tires, on your phone (Gore’s internet tax), tolls, annual excise taxes on your car, etc etc.
I think we all are feeling the pain of “being nibbled to death by ducks”, it doesn’t hurt all the much, but in the end, your still dead.
Unfortunately, our kids, grandkid, and great grandkids get the vicarious pleasure of receiving some of the pain since we have passed the duck, so to speak.
Good points Tom. The American People just repudiated the Progressive Socialist agenda of rampant spending and taxation on 11-2. Whether we get action out of the new Congress is open to conjecture. I would argue that their agenda is what needs to die by a thousand cuts in spending. The problem is not the amount of the revenue, but wasteful unwise spending by politicians of both parties and at every level of government. Government is consuming our dollars so there is no money for the private sector to grow or hire. How do we as businessmen create jobs and more taxpayers when we are oppressed and taxed to death? Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid need to be put in an asylum for the criminally insane.
Spending cuts should begin with a freeze on Fed employment followed by the elimination of the 1970s new E “Departments” such as Education, Energy, and the EPA. We can then move on to decertifying all public sector unions,including teacher’s unions, thus taking away the dues used to lobby “taxpayer” reprsentatives for more members, pay and benefits, who, in turn, increase the dues used for further lobbying.
Unions are a blight on our society. They have their cancerous tentacles deeply imbedded in business and government. Their generous pensions, wages, health insurance make our businesses uncompetitive with the rest of the world. Their work rules are not productive as well. They all need to be decertified and banished permanently. States that have right to work have a much better business climate than union controlled states and these states have a much better government that is not bankrupt like the Eastern states and West Coast.
Sure, Tom…decertify the public unions and then prevent union PACs from garnering dollars to make contributions….meanwhile leaving the corporations free to spend at will as our Supremes have allowed them (and anonymously, to boot) and as we saw in the last election where that devil Rove controlled all the bucks (not elected by anyone, him, I might add) and you have a recipe for sheer disaster for the middle class and for the lwoer class.
What the hell are you thinking? Unless you circumscribe the unequal access and influence of all power players driven by their ability to deliver campaign bucks to the venal congressment, you create a system in serious imbalance.
And I find it interesting that all you booster club memebers for big business seem to imply that given the option to make a few bucks, the large health corps will cut you off at the knees by reducing commissions…in fact, they already have, you state apparently before the “fact”…so that leaves me with a VERY warm and fuzzy feeling about the corprate agenda. Just think of how much bigger the big dudes bonuses will be when they shave a few points off the commission levels…I can see it now…oh the beauty of corporate greed!!!!!!
I specifically mentioned PUBLIC unions, not private. Having PUBLIC unions use their money to lobby the PUBLIC is just crazy. These contribution have nothing to do with fighting your bogey man, big business. They are in the business of pay and benefits for PUBLIC servants, not private corporation employees. Just ask your hero, FDR. It is a recipe for the pension and healthcare liabilities that have bankrupt the big states and also burdened the Feds.
Just how much free speech, in the form of contributions, do you want to limit? That is the nexus of the argument. Should corps, which are made up of individual citzens, have their speech hobbled?
As for corps, you think they all make money. Well guess what, over 40,000 corps failed last year and filed for bankruptcy.
Your hatred of “big business” is clouding your judgment. By the way, which entity has caused more death and destruction in the world, big business or big socialistic/statist/fascist/communist controlled countries? If you ponder that for a moment, you might regain your perspective.
Tom, you can’t reason with Tiresis any more than Cassandra on previous blogs. He is the personification of Big Government, Socialist philosophy. Business is what makes the wheels go around in this country. When we have a combination of government and unions who are anti business, that is a recipe for disaster. Is it any wonder that our economy is in the shape it is in?
There you go, Overtaxed, equating what I call social responsibility to my fellow citizens as socialism…and then you revert to your tired and inaccurate comparison to nazism/fascism, etc.
Yes, big business and business is important, but it is not the end point. The reason it exists (to me) is to provide its workers with decent livlihoods and its customers with value and its shareholders and employees with fair returns on their investments. It does not exist in a vacuum, but for what it can ethically and respnsibily provide. We have moved past that point as we have seen with the venality of the hedge fund dudes, with the unparalled acces certain segments (like the goldman Sachs’s) have to our lawmakers.
And Tom, there is something wrong with corps having the same rights as natural citizens; the “citizen shareholders” already have one vote…by banding together to bring excess and exorbitant dollars to bear on our lawmakers, they upset the one man one vote equations way too much.
Insofar as you have stated PUBLIC unions, I tend to agree. However, you have encouraged your cheering section to condemn “all unions” which have “ruined” this country…another matter altogether.
There are ways to deliver the social programs and social safety nets without bankrupting this country; we have only to look at special interst tax loopholes, subsidies, the much lighter burden of taxes placed on those who can afford it than those that are less able. Of the 47% in this contry that paid no income taxes at all this year and last, two of those were GOP election hopefuls who are, in actuality, millionaires. They claimed business reverses and therefor paid nothing, yet still live a very upper middle class lifestyle and also take money from the public as they are legislators. These were the GOP candidates who wanted to end unemployment, repeal healthcare, and in general, gut all social programs. And this is far, why?
Tiresis, Your brain is overloaded with numerous inaccuracies and spewing Socialism with every sentence. Perhaps you need a vacation in Venezuela so you can see first hand what happens in a society where the government provides everything for their citizens and therefore controls everything. Nothing works and the people are all poor except for the ruling elite class. This country needs to “gut” as you say it numerous social programs which have drained the economy and only make the folks more dependent on government. Personal responsibility and work ethic is what is needed to get the country back on track.
So everyone who disagrees with you is a socialist? You are an idiot. The REAL debate is at what point do we extend the safety nets to our fellow citizens?
As always, neither you or Tom has answered or responded in any sane, rational, educated sense to my question: Why are you always looking to gut the programs that help the little guy and the small business owner yet fail to even recoignize the “socialism” for the large corps and the wealthy? To what do you attribute the steady and constant erosion of the middle class this past decade? How do you respond to the continuing concentration of wealth in this country?
Do you even have a brain to respond? These are serious questions. if you send back some drivel about socialism, you are truly a fool…………
You made my point Tiresis. Since when has the government helped Small Business? Have they reduced our taxes? Are they burdening us with more regulation and Obamacare? Have they done anything to incentivize small business to hire or grow? The middle class has eroded for one reason, big government, big spending and instituting Progressive Socialist policies which are slowly eating away at this great country. I will agree with you on one point. The biggest companies are in bed with this government and it will be to their detriment in the long run.
Venting your frustration over your lack of facts and your wishes is not debating the merits. As the saying goes, you are entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. The concentration of income and/or wealth is and has been a liberal canard designed to fuel the furor of the masses. Unfortunately, Tiresis, you cannot resist the bait.
As for a reasoned response to your quest to spend every dime in the treasury to help our fellow man, I suggest we do some reverse engineering and first figure out what we can afford and how best to assist our “poor” without bankrupting our society. Since we have spent wildly over the last 60 years, including 1 TRILLION dollars on the Great Society, we know what is ineffective and that is giving people little incentive to try and achieve a better life. So let’s focus on expanding opportunity by reduciing regulation and taxes and encouraging those at the bottom to take back personal responsibility by not looking to the government for answers to all the problems they face.
I am not talking about the physically disabled, the mentally affected, or those who absolutely cannot fend for themselves. There are plenty of programs that are available for them.
Our differences have and will continue to be the breadth of your compassion, the cost of your compassion, and the bottom threshold for your compassion. So, you tell me, how much is a living wage? How much “welfare” in terms of annual dollars given to the poor will make you happy. How much should the average poor person receive in total dollars, grants, payments, susidies, for your safety net. $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 and how do you propose we pay for this new amount when multiples of that have been spent and now show up in TRILLION dollar deficits which must be paid for in addtion to these new entitlements. You do realize that 37 cents of every dollar the Fed now spend is gathered from borrowing and that the payment on the interest alone for the debt, not the annual deficit, will consume nearly 100% of the annual review by as early as 15 years from now. And that doesn’t count the 45-50 TRILLION “off the book debt” for Social Security and Medicare.
So your discussion about the safety net should be tempered with that knowledge or you are just being theoretical rather than serious.
Your compassion for the lower and middle class rings very hollow indeed while you rave on about what we can do for the little guy. Well, what we can do is try to disarm the debt time bomb and make future middle and lower classers lives infinately better than the will be if we don’t act responsibly now, regardless of the short term pain that might occur by paring back the safety net to an amount that helps as much as we can with the limited resources available to us.
So, bleating about compassion has its price, one that you care to ignore while posturing as someone who is for the little guy. Again, reality bites, doesn’t it!
37 cents of every dollar we currenlty spend.
Future interst payments 12-15 years will consume all (100%) of the annual revenue, leaving us to borrow more to cover our annual spending requirements, including entitlements and DISCRETIONARY spending.
Tom, I wish I could be as eloquent as you are to answer Tiresis rantings, but it would be useless. While he rants on emotion like most liberal bloggers, you present the facts and I am sure he won’t like it one bit. When a liberal can’t win on the issues, they will resort to name calling, class warfare or racism which are their favorites.
Tom, just because you state your “facts” with authority and eloquence does not make them true. What about “middle class share of the economic pie” is not true?
and what about the 1.1 trillion in special tax concessions granted…much of which goes to special interest corporations? Why do you have such “compassion” for the fatter cats?
Betcha I could find a lot of money in the tax code…you crab about the 2400 page health care bill but not about the tax codes? You think I have been propagandized….look in the mirror, Boyo.
No ones facts are as good as yours? No one else cares about the deficit but you? The only way to bring spending and deficits under control is to gut social programs? COME ON…are you Karl Rove in anonymous disguise? or the CEO of Goldman Sachs? Do dish, Tommy.
Either you are Scrooge masquerading in an intelligent persons clothes, or you are a fool.
Instead of gutting, why don’t we try cleaning up our tax codes? Instead of gutting, why don’t we try to clean up fraud, much of which is carried on by small businessmen? Instead of whining about illegal immigrants and what they get, have the guts to pass laws to stop them from receiving social benefits…AND have the guts to SIGNIFICANTLY FINE businesses that hire them instead of the little love slaps on the wrist?Why is defense off the table? Defense is 20% (I believe, or close to) of our budget, but we don’t get that one on the table when no such expert as the Sec of Defense want to cashier un needed and un warranted programs? COME ON. GET SERIOUS.
Where is your hue and cry on that? NO..just GUT, GUT, GUT. You should be a butcher.
If you remember, and I am sure you do although you probably will not acknowlege, part of these tax cuts that Obama wanted WAS for small business. You will also remember that small business owners were screaming about healthcare costs and inability to get decent cost health insurance for themsleves as well as their employees this past decade and a half…that was part of the impetus…that the healthcare cost burdens
were killing them and causing lack of competitiveness. Well, your right wing boys wouldn’t play nice so you got what you got…and now they are screaming out of the other side of their mouths…what did they want…a free ride? I suspect so. HYPOCRITS.
Eloquence is no excuse for blindness. You are not fair in your assessment of how we should pay for these programs and you are certainly not fair in your choice of things to cut….excuse me…GUT.
Until you seriously look at all sides of the govt give aways, you cannot be taken as in any way credible.
Tiresis, you are the poster child for Media Matters or Moveon.org with all your wild name calling and innacurate statements. Tom handed you your head with his facts and you couldn’t handle it.
Dude, if you are tired of the ran, then stop reading this thread.
Or do you just not like people who disagree with you?
You sound like a dick.
Cass, it is hard to answer a reply laced with non sequiturs and disjointed meanderings but here is the simple fact, basic economics will be what GUTS safety net programs, not me. Like it or not, you will be forced to determine priorities in which “safety nets” get the least in cuts, which suffer the most, and which must be defunded. That is the realitiy I have tried to bring to your attention.
What I have been met with are accusations that try to cast you as sublimely sensitive and realists as polyhedrons with no concept of good/evil or right/wrong.
You can bloviate all you want about big business, small business and the fortunes of life being unfair but you will soon have to focus on what we can afford and how best to help those who really and truly need help. You won’t be able to extract what you desire from the upper 2% or corporations, so I would encourage you to broaden your perspective and focus on cutting government spending and letting the private sector expand, thereby increasing gov revenue. We arent’ going to get out of this mess without working on both ends of the spectrum.
I have mentioned before that what is needed is a balanced budget amendment, a freeze on federal worker hiring and pay, decertifying the public sector unions, eliminating the Fed Dept of Education, combining Interior and Agriculture, and cutting 5% of the defense budget in past posts.
We will also have to tackle the “off the books” entitlements which means, means testing for benefits, raising the retirement age, removing the contribution cap on annual income.
We should also go to a three tiered flat tax and eliminate the mortgage exemption and all other deductions for EVERYONE. That means an elimination of the “earned income tax credit” which is a euphamism for welfare. It makes no sense that someone who didn’t pay income tax to receive a “refund”.
If you can wrap your mind around making specific changes rather than reverting to shotgunning your thoughts, we might get somewhere.
I like your ideas Tom. Of course, they make too much sense for our Progressive friends who can’t get their mind right to accept the logic. I particularly like the idea of consolidation of departments in the Federal Government since they often duplicate duties and are extremely wasteful. Along with Education which is a farce which caters to Teachers Unions, why do we need Energy/Interior separate? They do a lot of the same things at our expense. Why do we need Commerce? Has this lovely department promoted free enterprise in this country? All of these departments have numerous sub agencies to carry out policy. This government needs to be reigned in and reduced for the long term health of the country. They are spending us into oblivion.
OT, In addition to the Dept of Education, we could also look at getting rid of the other departments which came to life in the 1970s, Energy and the EPA. Coincidentally, teachers unions began their infamous rise to power also in the 70s. Return with me to those thrilling days of yesteryear, when the 70s crowd was anti-establishment and untursting of anyone over 30 and then compare that the face slapping fits of horror and the high pitched shrieks of pain that those “free thinkers” and “free lover” types will be making when they read this post.
Funny, how the Tepee living communal types now embrace everything they stood against lo those many years ago.
Cass, hang onto your birkenstocks and your peace sign bandana, its going to be a bumpy ride.
So Cass is masquerading as Tiresis. I knew the posts made seemed to be out of her playbook. These hippies are of the age now that many of them have worked their way into government positions and their ill conceived, marijuana influenced ideas are what has led to many of the problems we are facing. Our President was gritting his teeth when he had to make the announcement about the tax cuts. His base is ready to hang him out to dry. That is what he gets for getting into bed with them. He has painted himself into a corner and is likely to be challenged in the Democratic primaries now. I think he is officially a one termer now and all we have to do is be vigilant and not let him do further damage for the next 2 years.