Seems the Muslim community wants it cake and eat it too. Good comment about inequality of benefits depending upon religious belief. She should not settle for even 80%, she should get the whole thing. Wonder if they want to refund a third of the premiums too?
This should be more simple than it is. Receiving the proceeds of an insurance policy is not an inheritance–it is the exercise of a contract. If there is any justice in Islam the mother will get the full benefit of the contract that was purchased. Is Allah just?
it’s a contract that the insurance is responsible for giving to the named party. now, if the contract is want bindable at the time of the contract, he should have been told and the contract should have been voided at the time of signing. now, it should be valid and any mistakes are that of the company who sold the contract/insurance. they should pay out 100% to her.
but how is it, it’s ok, to accept money from a non-muslim – but not give it to a non-muslim? are we making sure that some of the money gets sent elsewhere? instead of to their respective parties. sounds like a fish swimming upstream and can’t find the water to swim in, only dry land (where’s the oasis)?!
Have you noticed, only in Malaysia the Islamic Law always benefit / favour the Muslims at the expenses of non muslims. No matter what , the muslim is in wrong side also, the law will be in favour of them. What is this lah, Muslim can take money but cannot give money to non muslims. Good Law! Keep it up!
Allah is definitely just.don’t blame Him for this.It is the people who make up this rules witout any concern for others to be blamed.Allah loves all irrespective of religion.She should not settle for 80%, give the whole thing to her, it is hers.Why is 61 year old poor woman being bullied?have you no heart?Allah please lead this people to the right path. Thank You By A Hindu
Bent over to the muslims after losing a limp or a buck and they are appeased. How about them bending over for a change, I mean a pure and simple bending over.
The old lady should get the whold sum of the inssurance money. Although her son embrace islam, he is still her son. Do the islamic affair try to denny that?
No, his followers believe e.g. that he wants them to kill and subjugate non-Muslims, and that the testimony of women in court must be supported by four men’s testimony. This latter rule explains the extraordinarily high rate of rape in Muslim countries.
“Allah is definitely just.don’t blame Him for this.”
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Sharia laws from the Hadiths and the Koran are absolutely immutable and valid for eternity, there is no hope that these laws can be diminished by reform or through peaceful means.
Mohammed’s example –committing mass murder of captives, sleeping with his nine year-old “wife” Aisha, getting first dibs on captured slave girls and booty, and so on– speaks for itself.
I like to add to Al’s comments. My definition of Allah is god the Only One for all. So that is why I said just. He should not be blamed. however on the talk of God I would like to recommend the Conversation With God Parts 1,2 & 3 and Final Revelations by Neale Donald Walsch
My comments were don’t use the name of God to take away a person’s inheritance. If God was asked he would say give evrything to the mother as she is also one of my children.
Yes, many peoples today tens to forget where they come from. Do they study how human beings develop and its history? There are four group types of common belives; One God, Many Gods, No Gods and Free Thinker.
Human begins with no religions. The on going evolution and development of human period, living together in community begins. The culture among each comunity soon develop to perform daily lifes and protect each comunity from being attack. The living at that times are feared with cruelty of the power. Religion then exists in many forms. The basic teaching of religions are good. That’s attract the followers. What had happen is the people had made used of it to cheat and empowered oneself or group for wealth. Do you think today with the technologies, food production, and facilities peoples still stuffing with food even in rich nation?
The one god religion, said god created human beings thru Adam and Eve (adam dan hawa). Therefore humans today are the heirs of Adam and Eve. Do they have to kill each other? Is that the teaching of religion? What is Adam and Eve religion then? What we can see clearly that what ever happened today is the greedines of oneself community trying to misinterprate the teaching of religions for its benefic.
The proverbs famous in malays:”syurga di tapak ibu” is not relavent here. The mother is an Hindu and the son a muslim. The son is not with the mother’s, can he go to syurga then? Did the son gets the permission or inform his mother before he embrace islam? Did anybody from the religious affair inform or discuss the concequences throughly with the family(parents) involve before a convert is done?
The lack of religious fairness to all mankind had made a move to the formation of common law, which is practice round the world. Common law are for all regards of religion, it treats everybody the same. Not like the religious law, weigthing one sided. Which is better common law or religious law? Do you think god made these law? Each religious believer will say their religion are the best in providing law and order. Is that so? Why there are so many types of religion? Who preaches it? When these religions form and why? Is the religion rules secure to mankind? Is a religion so frigthen that it would not exists in the world with its good teaching? What do you think? A good religion is the one who protects and treats all mankind the same.
The world is burdened with people who do not have the intelligence to solve the on going problems like intense summer heat so for convenience sake they called it manmade global warming and it is now the gospel of an average joe, when asked how did men messed up? They’ve no answer, only the mantra. Global warming.
How did God mess up big time now? Not talking about the Malaysian ruling muslim scam artists, that’s pidgeon ****. We’re seeing Global hatred, discontendment, lack of friendliness. This hatred contributed more to global warming then the green house gases.
We’ve to free this hating mentality but no leader has step forward. God has nothing to do with our problems, we’ve to free ourselves from hate and nobody can do that for us. Therefore god is another product we bought at a convenient store.
Al, please take your bigotry elsewhere. The problem is not with Islam or the Koran – the problem is with the law of the country. They should honor the contract, pay the mother the money, and get on with life.
I’m not a bigot, you’re an ignoramus. By that I do not mean to insult you, only to state a fact – you are ignorant of Islam in general, and its effects on Malaysia in particular.
The Koran mandates that non-Muslims be killed if they refuse to convert or pay the “jizya,” a tax on non-Muslims.
Koran 9:29 says, “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Books (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Al, the problem is still not with the Koran, it’s with the laws of the country. These are two completely different things. Were Malaysia a theocracy, such as Iran, I would agree with you, but they are not. The problem with this case is that secular law was skewed to favor a certain religious group. Were the large populations of Hindus and Christians in that area to ever decide to stand up for themselves and change their laws you wouldn’t see these sorts of things.
And do not assume others’ ignorance, lest you reveal your own. I too have read the Koran. It has the same crud in it as the Bible – kill the infidel, convert the infidel, treat people fairly, honor God. There’s really not that much difference in the Abrahamic religions when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it all. The major differences lie in the concept of “salvation” and how to get a good afterlife. Islam makes you work for it; Judaism (depending on which part of the Torah you decide to follow) either doesn’t care about the afterlife or makes you work for it; and Christianity gives it away.
question are the (….) truly listed in the writings of the KORAN or are they a translation based on someone’s ideas that is what is meant…because if it is that, then we might have to undergo a theological seminar…because in actualilty, we can each claim that the truth lies in our own hearts and religion. what is to say (in the words of the koran) whose truth is correct? now, in the questions of allah, does that not mean GOD? so whose god? does my one god in christianity different than yours? or do we actually percieve the same god, but just differently? because we worship different than you makes us wrong to worship our god? afterall, we worship only just a different way.
so killing one another is not a solution! afterall, is that not the same as murder and is not murder a criminal offense. taxing: why should we treat other differently? afterall, we all get the same amount of money from the employer? we all pay taxes to the federal government. so why should i pay more or less because i believe a little differntly than you. this is the problem with society, we try to say one is better than the other if not, we are going to destroy you. well, if you look at the situation in iraq, why are the insurgents so willing to kill their own kind or culture. because if you kill it all, they can’t reproduce or continue on with that culture/religion. a contract is a legal binding document and in reality, it does not state anywhere in the contract that she is not eligible for the money – all 100%. so lets leave religion out of it! lets put a moral value – son gave to his mother, afterall, how much did she give to him? probably more than what he’s giving back.
Where does the Bible say “Kill the infidel”? This might make it easier for you to search it out: http://www.biblegateway.com. I can save you the trouble though: nowhere. So do not assume others’ bigotry, lest you reveal your own.
Malaysia is becoming an Islamic theocracy. That’s where they got this stupid ruling – Sharia law. Why else would such a prejudiced ruling be handed down?
“so lets leave religion out of it! lets put a moral value – son gave to his mother, afterall, how much did she give to him? probably more than what he’s giving back.”
Let’s talk about how fish swim without mentioning water.
To address your comment Al I must first know what you call the Bible. I say this because many Christ-followers forget that the Torah is generally accepted as part of the Bible (that would be the Old Testament). If you only claim the New Testament, then no, it does not call for killing non-believers. If you follow the entire Bible then try reading what happened to the land of Canaan once the Jews were finally allowed to stop wandering after escaping Egypt. Pretty brutal stuff.
I admit – I find no truck with religion. Any of it. If you want to believe in a higher being, a greater power, a god, goddess, a pantheon – that’s fine with me. I just don’t want any decisions about my life based on anybody else’s fantasies. I also feel that nobody else’s life should be affected by others’ religious beliefs. There are some things I do believe the majority of mankind can agree upon that are not based in religion: don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t intentionally inflict harm upon another, honor your contracts. Even the most secular of societies could agree upon those precepts and they are not based upon religion. If your argument for a law, policy, procedure, or anything else that affects my life, is based in any part on religion the whole thing should be tossed.
Islam is not the great Satan. It is not an evil religion. Islam is, in fact, the first religion to officially address divorce and property rights for women. The Koran lays out alimony, inheritance rights and other rights for women that are not addressed in other religions. If you want an all-encompassing religion you can’t really go wrong with Islam, since everything from contract law, to marriage, divorce, taxes and loans is spelled out in the Koran. Islam was also the driving factor behind many of the greatest advancements of mankind – navigation, mathematics, science, philosophy. Many followers of Islam consider themselves both freed and protected by their religion and don’t feel the need to kill anybody else.
And just because Malaysia is currently ruled by religious nut-jobs does not make it a theocracy. A theocracy is defined by being ruled by a specific relgious class – not just zealous followers of a religion. If there are no holy-men involved it is not a theocracy. What they have is a messed-up system that needs to be fixed so it addresses the needs of all citizens. That’s something the populace should see to soon, lest they find it to be too late.
And not that a theocracy is all bad either. If one truly wants to live under the law as laid out in their holy books and by their holy-men you can’t get better than a theocracy. I just don’t want any part of one.
=To address your comment Al I must first know what you call the Bible. I say this because many Christ-followers forget that the Torah is generally accepted as part of the Bible (that would be the Old Testament).
I’ve never met a “Christ-follower” who thought this. Rejection of the OT is known as Marcionism, and was condemned early on.
=If you only claim the New Testament, then no, it does not call for killing non-believers. If you follow the entire Bible then try reading what happened to the land of Canaan once the Jews were finally allowed to stop wandering after escaping Egypt. Pretty brutal stuff.
=The Jews were told to wage war against specific tribes in the region for enumerated offenses against God and man. They weren’t just slaughtering non-Jews willy nilly, and the Gibeonites’ deception was honored as a peace treaty even after the deception was discovered.
=I admit – I find no truck with religion. Any of it. If you want to believe in a higher being, a greater power, a god, goddess, a pantheon – that’s fine with me. I just don’t want any decisions about my life based on anybody else’s fantasies.
No one said anything about your life, the most intimate tenets of which you seem eager to share. Even an atheist or agnostic should be able to understand that the tenets of Islam are what motivate the terrorists and Sharia-imposers. It is not “hijackers of a peaceful religion” with which we have to do; it is the strict practitioners of a violent and vile religion that are the problem. The terrorists and those who exploit women and foreigners in Islamic countries are being consistent, faithful Muslims.
=I also feel that nobody else’s life should be affected by others’ religious beliefs.
Then you should be ready to resist Islam at every turn.
=There are some things I do believe the majority of mankind can agree upon that are not based in religion: don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t intentionally inflict harm upon another, honor your contracts. Even the most secular of societies could agree upon those precepts and they are not based upon religion.
These are all set forth in the Ten Commandments. So to say that these fundamental building blocks of western jurisprudence are not based on religion is absurd.
=If your argument for a law, policy, procedure, or anything else that affects my life, is based in any part on religion the whole thing should be tossed.
So if someone steals your car you wouldn’t want him prosecuted because “Thou shalt not steal” is a religious precept. Gotcha.
=Islam is not the great Satan. It is not an evil religion. Islam is, in fact, the first religion to officially address divorce and property rights for women.
Please see Deuteronomy 24 and Numbers 36. As for women, here’s some unvarnished truth:
“Forbidden to you are…married women, except those you own as slaves.” (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
“Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially.” (Surah 4:126-)
1 in every 55 verses in the Qur’an incites Muslims to make war on non-Muslims. Some examples of Muslim ecumenism: “Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]…until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” (Surah 9:27-)
“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them.” (Surah 9:121-)
=The Koran lays out alimony, inheritance rights and other rights for women that are not addressed in other religions. If you want an all-encompassing religion you can’t really go wrong with Islam, since everything from contract law, to marriage, divorce, taxes and loans is spelled out in the Koran.
“Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband’s absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!” (Rodwell’s version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
=Islam was also the driving factor behind many of the greatest advancements of mankind – navigation, mathematics, science, philosophy.
Sorry, but this is false. All Islam ever did was expropriate the arts and sciences of the people they conquered. This is why the “golden age of Islam” passed so quickly: after the artisans they enslaved died, they didn’t know how to run anything they had captured.
=Many followers of Islam consider themselves both freed and protected by their religion and don’t feel the need to kill anybody else.
I am not saying that all Muslims are practicing Islam faithfully, I am saying that those who do are dangerous because they are ready to obey the Koran’s injunctions to kill or enslave non-Muslims.
=And just because Malaysia is currently ruled by religious nut-jobs does not make it a theocracy. A theocracy is defined by being ruled by a specific relgious class – not just zealous followers of a religion.
Please forward the dictionary you are citing. Thanks.
=If there are no holy-men involved it is not a theocracy. What they have is a messed-up system that needs to be fixed so it addresses the needs of all citizens. That’s something the populace should see to soon, lest they find it to be too late.
So, from whom do you think the political leaders get their advise for the Islamicization of Malaysia if not the local imams? Do you have any evidence that the local imams are opposed to this process?
=And not that a theocracy is all bad either. If one truly wants to live under the law as laid out in their holy books and by their holy-men you can’t get better than a theocracy. I just don’t want any part of one.
“The Jews were told to wage war against specific tribes in the region for enumerated offenses against God and man. They weren’t just slaughtering non-Jews willy nilly, and the Gibeonites’ deception was honored as a peace treaty even after the deception was discovered.”
This was marked as lastbat’s comment when it is actually Al’s.
Al, the precepts I laid out were held in common long before they were codified by religion. That’s one reason you find them in pretty much every religion in the world – they are universal human concepts as opposed to religious concepts. Just because something is co-opted by religion does not make it religious, it just means they found something to latch onto. Ever heard of a Christmas tree or the Easter bunny? Ever wonder why Christmas is celebrated near a very important Pagan holiday when, according to what the Bible describes, Jesus was born in the spring? Religions take many things and put spin on them. If your argument can be made secularly, then do so. People have a right to the property they have worked for. Not because some higher power says so, but because among people we can agree that this is right and just.
As for the killing, you said the Bible never said anything about killing non-believers – I just pointed out a place where it did. I’m not the one who said never – you were.
You seem amused or offended, I can’t tell which, by my willingness to describe certain portions of my own beliefs. You implied I was a bigot in one of your earlier posts so I responded to it. It’s called debate. And these are far from the most intimate tenets of my life. You reveal far more about yourself through your posts than I do about me.
What those of us who do not subscribe to religion can easily recognize is that all religions have the distinct probability of driving certain portions of their followers to absolute lunacy. There are other religions out there that have sired some fanatic or other willing to kill for their faith. It is not just Islam that does this. We are dealing with fanatics since the majority of Muslims are not blowing us up. Here’s what I know – there are people out there who have no problem with killing and they should be stopped. I also know that America has done things that caused, or helped cause, these people to hate us and those things should be stopped and/or apologized for (e.g. the whole mess with the Shah in Iran).
Islamic countries set up major universities in their cities and were the first to circumnavigate Africa. Islamic countries came up with the concept of zero. Put this in contrast with the fear of scientific advancement noted in many other countries (most notably European) during that same time-span.
Al, you seem to have a phobia about Islam. I almost wonder if this extends to other religions or if it is centered solely on Islam. I also find it interesting that you think I need to be cured; cured of what exactly? What malady am I suffering from? Sanity? Reason? Lack of delusion? It can’t be confusion, because I am not confused. I wish people whatever they want for themselves, provided it doesn’t harm me and mine. Just because I don’t want to live in a country ruled by religion does not mean I don’t think such places should exist – they should exist for those people that want them. Just because I don’t see a place for religion in my life does not mean I think relgion shouldn’t exist – it should exist for those people that need it or want it. Just because I can think rationally about a people whose beliefs differ from my own does not make me confused, it makes me open to ideas.
I wish you the best in your paranoia, your hatred, your bigotry and your copy of the Koran. May you receive whatever it is you believe you will receive.
Seems the Muslim community wants it cake and eat it too. Good comment about inequality of benefits depending upon religious belief. She should not settle for even 80%, she should get the whole thing. Wonder if they want to refund a third of the premiums too?
Ain’t it something how Muslim laws always benefit Muslims at the expense of everyone else? Ever noticed that?
This should be more simple than it is. Receiving the proceeds of an insurance policy is not an inheritance–it is the exercise of a contract. If there is any justice in Islam the mother will get the full benefit of the contract that was purchased. Is Allah just?
it’s a contract that the insurance is responsible for giving to the named party. now, if the contract is want bindable at the time of the contract, he should have been told and the contract should have been voided at the time of signing. now, it should be valid and any mistakes are that of the company who sold the contract/insurance. they should pay out 100% to her.
but how is it, it’s ok, to accept money from a non-muslim – but not give it to a non-muslim? are we making sure that some of the money gets sent elsewhere? instead of to their respective parties. sounds like a fish swimming upstream and can’t find the water to swim in, only dry land (where’s the oasis)?!
Have you noticed, only in Malaysia the Islamic Law always benefit / favour the Muslims at the expenses of non muslims. No matter what , the muslim is in wrong side also, the law will be in favour of them. What is this lah, Muslim can take money but cannot give money to non muslims. Good Law! Keep it up!
Allah is definitely just.don’t blame Him for this.It is the people who make up this rules witout any concern for others to be blamed.Allah loves all irrespective of religion.She should not settle for 80%, give the whole thing to her, it is hers.Why is 61 year old poor woman being bullied?have you no heart?Allah please lead this people to the right path. Thank You By A Hindu
Bent over to the muslims after losing a limp or a buck and they are appeased. How about them bending over for a change, I mean a pure and simple bending over.
The old lady should get the whold sum of the inssurance money. Although her son embrace islam, he is still her son. Do the islamic affair try to denny that?
“Is Allah just?”
No, his followers believe e.g. that he wants them to kill and subjugate non-Muslims, and that the testimony of women in court must be supported by four men’s testimony. This latter rule explains the extraordinarily high rate of rape in Muslim countries.
“Allah is definitely just.don’t blame Him for this.”
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Sharia laws from the Hadiths and the Koran are absolutely immutable and valid for eternity, there is no hope that these laws can be diminished by reform or through peaceful means.
Mohammed’s example –committing mass murder of captives, sleeping with his nine year-old “wife” Aisha, getting first dibs on captured slave girls and booty, and so on– speaks for itself.
I like to add to Al’s comments. My definition of Allah is god the Only One for all. So that is why I said just. He should not be blamed. however on the talk of God I would like to recommend the Conversation With God Parts 1,2 & 3 and Final Revelations by Neale Donald Walsch
My comments were don’t use the name of God to take away a person’s inheritance. If God was asked he would say give evrything to the mother as she is also one of my children.
Yes, many peoples today tens to forget where they come from. Do they study how human beings develop and its history? There are four group types of common belives; One God, Many Gods, No Gods and Free Thinker.
Human begins with no religions. The on going evolution and development of human period, living together in community begins. The culture among each comunity soon develop to perform daily lifes and protect each comunity from being attack. The living at that times are feared with cruelty of the power. Religion then exists in many forms. The basic teaching of religions are good. That’s attract the followers. What had happen is the people had made used of it to cheat and empowered oneself or group for wealth. Do you think today with the technologies, food production, and facilities peoples still stuffing with food even in rich nation?
The one god religion, said god created human beings thru Adam and Eve (adam dan hawa). Therefore humans today are the heirs of Adam and Eve. Do they have to kill each other? Is that the teaching of religion? What is Adam and Eve religion then? What we can see clearly that what ever happened today is the greedines of oneself community trying to misinterprate the teaching of religions for its benefic.
The proverbs famous in malays:”syurga di tapak ibu” is not relavent here. The mother is an Hindu and the son a muslim. The son is not with the mother’s, can he go to syurga then? Did the son gets the permission or inform his mother before he embrace islam? Did anybody from the religious affair inform or discuss the concequences throughly with the family(parents) involve before a convert is done?
The lack of religious fairness to all mankind had made a move to the formation of common law, which is practice round the world. Common law are for all regards of religion, it treats everybody the same. Not like the religious law, weigthing one sided. Which is better common law or religious law? Do you think god made these law? Each religious believer will say their religion are the best in providing law and order. Is that so? Why there are so many types of religion? Who preaches it? When these religions form and why? Is the religion rules secure to mankind? Is a religion so frigthen that it would not exists in the world with its good teaching? What do you think? A good religion is the one who protects and treats all mankind the same.
The world is burdened with people who do not have the intelligence to solve the on going problems like intense summer heat so for convenience sake they called it manmade global warming and it is now the gospel of an average joe, when asked how did men messed up? They’ve no answer, only the mantra. Global warming.
How did God mess up big time now? Not talking about the Malaysian ruling muslim scam artists, that’s pidgeon ****. We’re seeing Global hatred, discontendment, lack of friendliness. This hatred contributed more to global warming then the green house gases.
We’ve to free this hating mentality but no leader has step forward. God has nothing to do with our problems, we’ve to free ourselves from hate and nobody can do that for us. Therefore god is another product we bought at a convenient store.
Al, please take your bigotry elsewhere. The problem is not with Islam or the Koran – the problem is with the law of the country. They should honor the contract, pay the mother the money, and get on with life.
I’m not a bigot, you’re an ignoramus. By that I do not mean to insult you, only to state a fact – you are ignorant of Islam in general, and its effects on Malaysia in particular.
The Koran mandates that non-Muslims be killed if they refuse to convert or pay the “jizya,” a tax on non-Muslims.
Koran 9:29 says, “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Books (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Infidels to be tattoed in Malaysia? (scroll down below the headlines)
http://www.malaysia-today.net/2008/content/view/2102/46/
M’sian Islamic party still wants stonings
http://www.straitstimes.com/Latest%2BNews/Asia/STIStory_197259.html
Al, the problem is still not with the Koran, it’s with the laws of the country. These are two completely different things. Were Malaysia a theocracy, such as Iran, I would agree with you, but they are not. The problem with this case is that secular law was skewed to favor a certain religious group. Were the large populations of Hindus and Christians in that area to ever decide to stand up for themselves and change their laws you wouldn’t see these sorts of things.
And do not assume others’ ignorance, lest you reveal your own. I too have read the Koran. It has the same crud in it as the Bible – kill the infidel, convert the infidel, treat people fairly, honor God. There’s really not that much difference in the Abrahamic religions when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it all. The major differences lie in the concept of “salvation” and how to get a good afterlife. Islam makes you work for it; Judaism (depending on which part of the Torah you decide to follow) either doesn’t care about the afterlife or makes you work for it; and Christianity gives it away.
question are the (….) truly listed in the writings of the KORAN or are they a translation based on someone’s ideas that is what is meant…because if it is that, then we might have to undergo a theological seminar…because in actualilty, we can each claim that the truth lies in our own hearts and religion. what is to say (in the words of the koran) whose truth is correct? now, in the questions of allah, does that not mean GOD? so whose god? does my one god in christianity different than yours? or do we actually percieve the same god, but just differently? because we worship different than you makes us wrong to worship our god? afterall, we worship only just a different way.
so killing one another is not a solution! afterall, is that not the same as murder and is not murder a criminal offense. taxing: why should we treat other differently? afterall, we all get the same amount of money from the employer? we all pay taxes to the federal government. so why should i pay more or less because i believe a little differntly than you. this is the problem with society, we try to say one is better than the other if not, we are going to destroy you. well, if you look at the situation in iraq, why are the insurgents so willing to kill their own kind or culture. because if you kill it all, they can’t reproduce or continue on with that culture/religion. a contract is a legal binding document and in reality, it does not state anywhere in the contract that she is not eligible for the money – all 100%. so lets leave religion out of it! lets put a moral value – son gave to his mother, afterall, how much did she give to him? probably more than what he’s giving back.
Where does the Bible say “Kill the infidel”? This might make it easier for you to search it out: http://www.biblegateway.com. I can save you the trouble though: nowhere. So do not assume others’ bigotry, lest you reveal your own.
Malaysia is becoming an Islamic theocracy. That’s where they got this stupid ruling – Sharia law. Why else would such a prejudiced ruling be handed down?
Church group slams Malaysian airport officials for confiscating Bibles
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/04/asia/AS-GEN-Malaysia-Religious-Rights.php
“so lets leave religion out of it! lets put a moral value – son gave to his mother, afterall, how much did she give to him? probably more than what he’s giving back.”
Let’s talk about how fish swim without mentioning water.
To address your comment Al I must first know what you call the Bible. I say this because many Christ-followers forget that the Torah is generally accepted as part of the Bible (that would be the Old Testament). If you only claim the New Testament, then no, it does not call for killing non-believers. If you follow the entire Bible then try reading what happened to the land of Canaan once the Jews were finally allowed to stop wandering after escaping Egypt. Pretty brutal stuff.
I admit – I find no truck with religion. Any of it. If you want to believe in a higher being, a greater power, a god, goddess, a pantheon – that’s fine with me. I just don’t want any decisions about my life based on anybody else’s fantasies. I also feel that nobody else’s life should be affected by others’ religious beliefs. There are some things I do believe the majority of mankind can agree upon that are not based in religion: don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t intentionally inflict harm upon another, honor your contracts. Even the most secular of societies could agree upon those precepts and they are not based upon religion. If your argument for a law, policy, procedure, or anything else that affects my life, is based in any part on religion the whole thing should be tossed.
Islam is not the great Satan. It is not an evil religion. Islam is, in fact, the first religion to officially address divorce and property rights for women. The Koran lays out alimony, inheritance rights and other rights for women that are not addressed in other religions. If you want an all-encompassing religion you can’t really go wrong with Islam, since everything from contract law, to marriage, divorce, taxes and loans is spelled out in the Koran. Islam was also the driving factor behind many of the greatest advancements of mankind – navigation, mathematics, science, philosophy. Many followers of Islam consider themselves both freed and protected by their religion and don’t feel the need to kill anybody else.
And just because Malaysia is currently ruled by religious nut-jobs does not make it a theocracy. A theocracy is defined by being ruled by a specific relgious class – not just zealous followers of a religion. If there are no holy-men involved it is not a theocracy. What they have is a messed-up system that needs to be fixed so it addresses the needs of all citizens. That’s something the populace should see to soon, lest they find it to be too late.
And not that a theocracy is all bad either. If one truly wants to live under the law as laid out in their holy books and by their holy-men you can’t get better than a theocracy. I just don’t want any part of one.
=To address your comment Al I must first know what you call the Bible. I say this because many Christ-followers forget that the Torah is generally accepted as part of the Bible (that would be the Old Testament).
I’ve never met a “Christ-follower” who thought this. Rejection of the OT is known as Marcionism, and was condemned early on.
=If you only claim the New Testament, then no, it does not call for killing non-believers. If you follow the entire Bible then try reading what happened to the land of Canaan once the Jews were finally allowed to stop wandering after escaping Egypt. Pretty brutal stuff.
=The Jews were told to wage war against specific tribes in the region for enumerated offenses against God and man. They weren’t just slaughtering non-Jews willy nilly, and the Gibeonites’ deception was honored as a peace treaty even after the deception was discovered.
=I admit – I find no truck with religion. Any of it. If you want to believe in a higher being, a greater power, a god, goddess, a pantheon – that’s fine with me. I just don’t want any decisions about my life based on anybody else’s fantasies.
No one said anything about your life, the most intimate tenets of which you seem eager to share. Even an atheist or agnostic should be able to understand that the tenets of Islam are what motivate the terrorists and Sharia-imposers. It is not “hijackers of a peaceful religion” with which we have to do; it is the strict practitioners of a violent and vile religion that are the problem. The terrorists and those who exploit women and foreigners in Islamic countries are being consistent, faithful Muslims.
=I also feel that nobody else’s life should be affected by others’ religious beliefs.
Then you should be ready to resist Islam at every turn.
=There are some things I do believe the majority of mankind can agree upon that are not based in religion: don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t intentionally inflict harm upon another, honor your contracts. Even the most secular of societies could agree upon those precepts and they are not based upon religion.
These are all set forth in the Ten Commandments. So to say that these fundamental building blocks of western jurisprudence are not based on religion is absurd.
=If your argument for a law, policy, procedure, or anything else that affects my life, is based in any part on religion the whole thing should be tossed.
So if someone steals your car you wouldn’t want him prosecuted because “Thou shalt not steal” is a religious precept. Gotcha.
=Islam is not the great Satan. It is not an evil religion. Islam is, in fact, the first religion to officially address divorce and property rights for women.
Please see Deuteronomy 24 and Numbers 36. As for women, here’s some unvarnished truth:
“Forbidden to you are…married women, except those you own as slaves.” (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
“Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially.” (Surah 4:126-)
1 in every 55 verses in the Qur’an incites Muslims to make war on non-Muslims. Some examples of Muslim ecumenism: “Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]…until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” (Surah 9:27-)
“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them.” (Surah 9:121-)
=The Koran lays out alimony, inheritance rights and other rights for women that are not addressed in other religions. If you want an all-encompassing religion you can’t really go wrong with Islam, since everything from contract law, to marriage, divorce, taxes and loans is spelled out in the Koran.
“Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband’s absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!” (Rodwell’s version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
=Islam was also the driving factor behind many of the greatest advancements of mankind – navigation, mathematics, science, philosophy.
Sorry, but this is false. All Islam ever did was expropriate the arts and sciences of the people they conquered. This is why the “golden age of Islam” passed so quickly: after the artisans they enslaved died, they didn’t know how to run anything they had captured.
=Many followers of Islam consider themselves both freed and protected by their religion and don’t feel the need to kill anybody else.
I am not saying that all Muslims are practicing Islam faithfully, I am saying that those who do are dangerous because they are ready to obey the Koran’s injunctions to kill or enslave non-Muslims.
=And just because Malaysia is currently ruled by religious nut-jobs does not make it a theocracy. A theocracy is defined by being ruled by a specific relgious class – not just zealous followers of a religion.
Please forward the dictionary you are citing. Thanks.
=If there are no holy-men involved it is not a theocracy. What they have is a messed-up system that needs to be fixed so it addresses the needs of all citizens. That’s something the populace should see to soon, lest they find it to be too late.
So, from whom do you think the political leaders get their advise for the Islamicization of Malaysia if not the local imams? Do you have any evidence that the local imams are opposed to this process?
=And not that a theocracy is all bad either. If one truly wants to live under the law as laid out in their holy books and by their holy-men you can’t get better than a theocracy. I just don’t want any part of one.
You are one confused person. Go here everyday until you are cured — http://www.jihadwatch.org.
“The Jews were told to wage war against specific tribes in the region for enumerated offenses against God and man. They weren’t just slaughtering non-Jews willy nilly, and the Gibeonites’ deception was honored as a peace treaty even after the deception was discovered.”
This was marked as lastbat’s comment when it is actually Al’s.
Al, the precepts I laid out were held in common long before they were codified by religion. That’s one reason you find them in pretty much every religion in the world – they are universal human concepts as opposed to religious concepts. Just because something is co-opted by religion does not make it religious, it just means they found something to latch onto. Ever heard of a Christmas tree or the Easter bunny? Ever wonder why Christmas is celebrated near a very important Pagan holiday when, according to what the Bible describes, Jesus was born in the spring? Religions take many things and put spin on them. If your argument can be made secularly, then do so. People have a right to the property they have worked for. Not because some higher power says so, but because among people we can agree that this is right and just.
As for the killing, you said the Bible never said anything about killing non-believers – I just pointed out a place where it did. I’m not the one who said never – you were.
You seem amused or offended, I can’t tell which, by my willingness to describe certain portions of my own beliefs. You implied I was a bigot in one of your earlier posts so I responded to it. It’s called debate. And these are far from the most intimate tenets of my life. You reveal far more about yourself through your posts than I do about me.
What those of us who do not subscribe to religion can easily recognize is that all religions have the distinct probability of driving certain portions of their followers to absolute lunacy. There are other religions out there that have sired some fanatic or other willing to kill for their faith. It is not just Islam that does this. We are dealing with fanatics since the majority of Muslims are not blowing us up. Here’s what I know – there are people out there who have no problem with killing and they should be stopped. I also know that America has done things that caused, or helped cause, these people to hate us and those things should be stopped and/or apologized for (e.g. the whole mess with the Shah in Iran).
Islamic countries set up major universities in their cities and were the first to circumnavigate Africa. Islamic countries came up with the concept of zero. Put this in contrast with the fear of scientific advancement noted in many other countries (most notably European) during that same time-span.
Al, you seem to have a phobia about Islam. I almost wonder if this extends to other religions or if it is centered solely on Islam. I also find it interesting that you think I need to be cured; cured of what exactly? What malady am I suffering from? Sanity? Reason? Lack of delusion? It can’t be confusion, because I am not confused. I wish people whatever they want for themselves, provided it doesn’t harm me and mine. Just because I don’t want to live in a country ruled by religion does not mean I don’t think such places should exist – they should exist for those people that want them. Just because I don’t see a place for religion in my life does not mean I think relgion shouldn’t exist – it should exist for those people that need it or want it. Just because I can think rationally about a people whose beliefs differ from my own does not make me confused, it makes me open to ideas.
I wish you the best in your paranoia, your hatred, your bigotry and your copy of the Koran. May you receive whatever it is you believe you will receive.