Do we really think the Obama administration cares if this is ruled unconstitutional? I personally believe they intend for buying insurance in the private sector to be deemed illegal. But they then intend to force us to buy it directly from the government. It’s an attempt at government take-over of the entire insurance industry.
Wow. We found a judge willing to do the right thing. Supreme Court here they come. Hopefully, this whole dastardly bill will be deemed unconstitutional before it does permanent harm.
have shown that the majority of the public supports almost all of the individual provisions of this bill. I would suggest that how it was passed sticks in the public’s craw than what was passed does.
Be careful what you wish for. One day you, too, may need the no preexiating clause; may have to purchase insurance on the open market; may get cancelled when you become sick; may have to help your unemployed college grad pay for health insurance; may hit your lifetime max, etc.
You may think you might be winning a victory, but for most of us, your victory will be Phyrrhic and will hurt more citizens than you could ever know.
Your enmity knows no bounds. The Constitutional argument is specious. The unintended consequences will be disastrous if “business as usual” returns. You are worried about costs and deficits? Just wait, if this bill is repealed……….The Supreme Court is now too political. Decisions are being made for political favoritism and not via law or precedent or even common sense. I surely do not want this decision in the hands of the GOP driven Supreme Court.
Don’t count your free-of-mandate chickens before they’re hatched. In federal court rulings, it’s now 2 to 1 in favor of Obamacare and the individual mandate. There’s a long way to go before it is supposed to go into effect in 2014.
This brings back a little bit of hope to the fact that it is obvious the founding fathers when they wrote our constitution did not mean to have the government provide healthcare for everyone.
The establishment of the exchanges and the participation requirement is not unconstitutional. I find it short sighted that the privilege conservatives want to throw up road blocks and fight the inevitable. This country can no longer afford to maintain such a expensive health care delivery system that lacks the ability and desire to provide basic health care to it’s citizens. What do you have thats better. Nothing! More obstruction and foot dragging as common citizens struggle with this issue.
Given that he has never played those two cards, the chance of that happening is nil. He has never lowered himself to the simpleton levels of so much of his peanut gallery opposition. Remember when he held the forum with his Republican legislator opposition a few months ago? Unprecidented.
You hit the nail on the head Henry. It is a core belief by the rich conservatives to attack the have-nots as freeloader for they have no voice are are thus very easy targets. It is only a matter of time before the middle class become healthcare have-nots. That day will come. When was the last time the cost for anyone’s healthcare premium actually went DOWN?
To those wishing for a repeal of healthcare reform;
I wish you and your family the continued good health that allows you to comfortably maintain your viewpoint.
I am concerned about pre-existing conditions, cancellation when an illness strikes and an unemployed colleg grad. My spouse had a co-worker laid off while his wife was fighting cancer. He found another job a short time later but there was a pre-existing condition – cancer. These were harding working middle class folks.
…Obamacare was watered down to irrelvance by the Republican health care lobby, so this is no big deal. Time to move on to what’s really necessary to immediately slash healthcare costs by 35% and improve outcomes – SINGLE PAYER.
Actually ours did last year. And I know of 2 people in our small company going through chemo.
It is wrong to force health insurance. Health care is a privilege not a right – it’s also a choice. Whatever happened to the market governing itself? Besides, anyone who thinks that a government requirement to carry insurance will work is a fool. If it did, there would not be UM coverage. I would take the penalty and not carry insurance. Really I would only get penalized if I ended up needing it and had to go to the doctor or hospital. And odds are I would still be ahead in paying a fine over the premiums. And therein lies the problem.
And the government really doesn’t need to be in my life anymore than it already is. The government needs to get out of all our lives. We have lost what the function of our government is supposed to be.
The reason rich conservatives care about where their tax dollars are spent is because conservatives actually PAY taxes unlike many of the appointees of the current administration. Why would rich liberals worry about paying the freight for others when they have their offshore accounts sheltering THEIR money?
I haven’t read the opinion (I have real work to do at work), but if the judge only held the part that forces people to buy health insurance, while requiring insurance companies to cover the sick who buy insurance, how exactly is this suppoed to work out from a financial perspective?
Obamacare is not what the American people wanted. Many were wanting to believe in the utopian ideals personified by “Change we can believe in”. This was not a bad thing, but having the gov’t run healthcare is not the answer.
Health care costs were minimal for most folks until health insurance became popular. It was then when rich people took notice of how much money could be made by doctors, hospitals, pharaceutical companies, insurance companies and every one else involved. They all succeded in raising their profits(nothing wrong in that) and prices(something very wrong in that) for every American. That doesn’t work
The Euros-and every other nation with universal health care-capped costs by rationing coverage and essentially allow people to be sick or die waiting for surgery, therapy or medicines needed to live. That doesn’t work either as I don’t want some bureaocarat sending me a letter telling me I can’t have this or can’t get this done. Don’t tell me that it won’t as it happens now with my insureance company.
Lets let the current system keep on. The day when enough of us doesn’t have insurance, then those who benefit by it-the same doctors, hospitals, insurance companies and the like, will be forced to adjust their prices so that they can keep the doors open. Its not a pretty or easy or happy solution, but it will be market driven and will in the long run work for us. Just keep the gov’t out of medicine as much as we can now and we’ll keep our beloved republic and hopefully, won’t go broke paying our taxes each year. God Bless America
Absolutely frightening that someone would actually believe big business would regulate and control themselves and stop treating all customers as factors of production.
Sarah, your post is funny as always. But, keep in mind our founding fathers had wooden teeth. There was no such thing as “healthcare” in those days. They just prayed and gave you whiskey…
Big business is not nearly as frightening as Big Government. I can’t believe anyone in their right mind wants government bureaucrats in charge of Healthcare. There are few, if any things government does well. Costs will continue to escalate (as they have already done)with the market struggling to accomodate the “Mandates” coming into play. Market based solutions and Tort Reform was the way to handle this, but instead, our Progressive leaders just had to ram it down our throats. REPEAL!
Tony, Actually medicine in those days primarily consisted of bleeding the patient. Washington was bled until he died. Kind of like what our politicians are doing to this country and this bill in particular.
DW, if you really believe that, then you should support Emergency Rooms declining to provide service to uninsured people for immediate care in order to save their lives. Maybe we could just throw them off the property, or designate an area outside hospitals for the uninsured to die…. especially since most of these people would buy insurance if they could (afford or be offered coverage due to pre-existing condition).
I hope you and your family continue to enjoy good health that allows you to be so pompous.
I bet you even call yourself a christian… Amazing.
And this even before the new healthcare bill takes effect.
Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services http://www.fms.treas.gov/mts/mts0910.pdf
Page 10
Government is the cause of, not the solution to high medical costs.
It shall be an interesting three years.
Big business is not nearly as frightening as Big Government. The financial melt down was not frightening at all. Banks raising interests on timely paying clients for no reason not so bad. Those robo foreclosures are not a problem.
The writing is on the wall. Obamacare will be tweeked by the new Congress and the 2012 even newer Congress to a point of non-recognition.
Caps on medical malpratice (long overdue), in depth tort reform, selling across state lines and pure price competition. All this is done when insurance companies are confident the government can’t run it. Let the market run. What follows? The bulls.
Actually Tony I have not been blessed with good health. However, when I choose my employer I evaluated the total benefits package I was offered, including health insurance premiums and percentages and out-of-pocket costs.
And I am a Christian. I even help other people out. But we live in America, land of the free. I choose to help people and I shouldn’t be forced. In fact, I would give more if the government didn’t take so much, redistribute it to those who play the system, and leave those who need it without assistance. We have a duty to those who cannot help themselves, not to those who choose not to help themselves. The more the gov “helps” the worse we will all be.
Tony, Your an idiot! They do have insurance, it’s called medicaid. There isn’t a hospital that will refuse anyone in an emergency. I have health insurance that is paid for by me and my employer. I know people with medicaid that don’t pay anything and have better coverage. All I’m saying is these “poor” people who can’t afford it, already have tax payer provided coverage.
FYI- It’s Christian, and yes I am. Jesus taught: for the people to take care of one another, not rely on the government.Maybe you should go back to insurnace school and learn what “pooling risk” is. Sharing the burdon of cost -there’s a free lesson for you.
Tony – This is not the case in this country to refuse ANYONE medical care whether they are insured or not. That is why many of the clinics in AZ, NM, TX have had to close because of providing health care to illegal immigrants & never getting reimbursed. Also, we provide healthcare to those from Canada & other countries, who have the subsidized healthcare & they would rather come here to have the BEST healthcare in the world rather than be put on a waiting list or be put off for procedures that their health providing GOVERNMENT deems unecessary. Since when does mandating whether individuals carry healthcare or not determine whether you are a Christian?…. AMAZING!
Hey Kansan, The financial meltdown with the sub prime mortgages was mostly due to government meddling in the affairs of business. Banks were told they had to make loans to everyone whether they could pay or not. Barney Frank & Chris Dodd refused to reign in Fannie & Freddie for their practices. They are too big to fail so we keep bailing them out every few months and still nothing is done and the housing crisis keeps getting worse on the foreclosures. Big Government is the instigator of the financial problems we have in this country.
What K Street lobbyist came up with this name, and why are so many commenters here parroting it? The healthcare act was overwhelmingly legislation already in the Congressional hopper, not the act of a single person.
I get a little upset when the most fortunate people get greedy, and forget there are a lot of hardworking, god fearing people who cannot find coverage or get taken advantage of (non renewal, exclusions etc.).
A little story about big business and how they treat their customers. A doctor in rural America who owned a small practice for 27 yrs. He carried major med was loyal to a single carrier for this entire time. He got sick, very sick and needed kidney transplant. His carrier dropped him. Then he spent his life savings (and children’s inheritance) trying to stay alive. After 5 yrs of struggling, he died, leaving behind a mountain of debt.
Now, I voted for Obama in order to see some changes in how we view healthcare in this country. I’m disappointed with the result and think most of this bill needs to be repealed. But at the very base of it all, I feel we need to take care of our citizens (those born here and pay taxes). I understand the European model will not work here.. our cost of services Per Capita and % of GDP are way too high. But, there has to be a way. There just has to.
Now onto the Supremes. Judicial activism is not a conservative bent, construing the rights of the individual against an oppressive mandate is. This portion of the law will be deemed unconstitutional and will take out the center piece of this legislation which will then require that most of the rest of the 2,700 pages be stripped down to the several things that most of us agree upon. And, the new bill will add some cost control, such as tort reform, to really make some specific laser like changes.
Monty, differeing opinions by different courts now means that the Supremes will be required to make a ruling for all the courts to follow. The end will come very some time next year.
Tony, As slick Willy was prone to say, I feel your pain. Yes, there have been problems with the Healthcare System in this country, but to replace it with the Progressive Government Bureaucratic system would be a disaster of biblical proportions. The folks spoke on 11-2 and sent a loud message to Congress about repealing this bill. They could have written a 100 page bill that would have reformed, but not destroyed Healthcare in this country. Everyone is frustrated and upset that a small group of Progressive politicians rammed something through that the majority of Americans didn’t want.
Stop calling this ‘Healthcare Reform’ and ‘Obamacare’. The bill does not address the ability to receive healthcare or the quality of the healthcare delivered. It simply addresses who will pay for it (among a bunch of other incideous and expensive items that have absolutely nothing to do with health care or health insurance).
The only question that needs to be asked and answered is ‘Does the Government have the authority to force you to buy a product?’
Well, the judge’s ruling is not much help, the answer is sometimes. For example, if you choose to buy a motor vehicle, you can be compelled to buy insurance for its use. However, the government does not have the authority to force you to buy the automobile.
So, should people be compelled to buy health insurance? No, and that is as it should be. Had the Obama administration payed attention to the proposal presented to it to build upon the VA medical centers and create a delivery platform open to everyone, insured or not, this conversation would not be necessary.
The government has the constitutional authority to compete in the healthcare delivery system without affecting the rest of the system as it currently exists.
With a headline like that, I guess we know how the Insurance Journal feels about it. Which is strange, because the insurers *want* the individual mandate. Otherwise, how else could they cover risks in guaranteed markets? BTW, the reason why healthcare is expensive is because rates are set by the insurers and providers, and not by a disinterested third party.
first of all, the american people are the ones that need to have healthcare AVAILABLE for them to use. they should get the best of care despite costs. but needs to be regulated is that costs of medical itself is getting out of hand. but then again, we let it get out of hand, just like we allow the oil industry the same. how many of you folks noticed it’s rising again!?
here’s another issue, you can’t madate LIBERTIES or PURSUIT of HAPPINESS. if i belong to a religion that does not believe in the current health methods. how many of the indians don’t believe in our health methods? are you going to mandate them to have insurance as well?
illegals – why are they allow to use our healthcare system when they we have enough problems of our own americans? why do we allow that federal gov’t to have this law mandated, but when it comes to illegals, how long will it take to get that fixed? we spend more money on fruitless things than what needs to be done. i bet we can find jobs for americans, if we finally remove the illegals who get jobs because they don’t mind taking less. but then the gov’t loses money because there are no taxing those folks who are illegal. no social security, no medicaid money is coming from this illegal activity. and you wonder why some of the states have problems with their own budgets?!
The fact that the individual mandate is a critical part of Obamacare doesn’t make it constitutional. If this decision doesn’t survive a Supreme Court review, then I fear the floodgates will open for other intrusions on people’s freedom by the federal government.
This is all one big political nightmare. The Progressives want to spend this country into bankruptcy by providing everything from cradle to grave. They want to give the illegals status for Social Security and Healthcare so they will vote for them and keep control of the massive Federal Government. The Conservatives want the rule of law and reduction of government and want the hand outs stopped for the lazy and the illegals. The American People want the political games to stop and the government to do the right thing for the hard working real Americans. It is shameful to see the class warfare that is going on. We may need another election cycle to get these idiots out of office.
As Christians (those who claim to be on this posting), we need to realize that God is in control… not us.
What happened before health insurance and health care? … people died.
Now we all feel it is our right to live forever…
I think we need to put it into perspective. Yes, as Christians we should do everything in our power to help others (and for the most part we do) – however, government is not necessarily the best way to do this (because there motivation is not God focused).
Oh Henry, I suppose you tell that to all the girls, its inevitable, so lay back and enjoy it. A lot of thought went into that statement. No further commentary is needed.
Spiratual, you cannot be serious. You liken those who desire access to healthcare – to prevent losing their homes, becoming sicker, and dying – as people who just want to live longer? How about quality of life. Does that put it into perspective enough for you?? God is NOT in control. We are in control as we use our “god given” talents to live our lives. Since the articles does mention the constitution, you should know the writers of this document intended for the church and government to be two seperate entities.
I can’t believe all the supposed insurance people out there and not one comment concerning Adverse Selection. This judge and any other judges who rule in a similar fashion guarantee the concept of adverse selection is imbeded in this program. Obama’s not even an insurance guy and he gets that concept.
After reading all the comments, some of those folks that seem to be more in favor of the law as is point to the fact that our credo, religious or not, is to help others, or those less fortunate than ourselves. Well, the news is that many of us do and the US is the most generous country when it come to charitable giving. The BIG difference is that we are not forced to do so – we do so of our own FREE will. But, by forcing us all to do so at greater cost to everyone, the end result is that many of us won’t be left with enough money to continue voluntary charitable giving and the government will take that aspect over too, so we’ll all end up being subserviant to the government, which I fear is just what many so-called “progressives” actually want.
Beyond that, I still cannot figure out how adding so many people to the rolls of the insured and removing the existing condition roadblock to obtaining health insurance (a noble goal, I might add, but perhaps accomlished in a different way), will somehow reduce healthcare costs. I don’t see how the enconmics work out for that and I don’t believe the government has either. Most of what was used to promote and pass this law was rhetoric and sound bites, not to mention secret deals behind closed doors.
Where exactly in the constitution is the “seperation of church and state” clause. Ohhh, you mean the first amendment where no laws respecting the “establishment of a religion’ was penned. That certainly doesn’t mean that religion is to be totally taken out of our laws; nor ignored for its moral values.
As for the usual cadre of “rich” haters, I would point out that the rich do contribute heavily to healthcare foundations, hospitals and other worthy causes. I know it problably doesn’t fit the rich hater paradigm to consider that but consider this-this week the total number of BILLIONAIRS joining the GIVING PLEDGE. There are now 57 BILLIONIRRES who have pledged to give 1/2 of their total wealth (not income) to charity. The rick v. poor ilk only have one note, a high sour one that is used to try and drive the debate into an us versus them populist movement.
Obamacare is an Obamination as it is focused on insurance costs and leave health provider costs out of the equation. For that reason alone, it is doomed to fail in is goal of making healthcare “affordable” or available to everyone. This is a Trojan horse sent to us to get to the ultimate victory of a single payer system, similar to the one that is bankrupting the EU. If you think the British riots last week over raising tuition is something, then wait for the riots for “free” healthcare.
All these post ignore the elephant in the room, cost. We are teetering on the verge of bankruptcy while we all argue who is more “christian”, those that fight for solvency, or those who demand insolvency as bona fides for their “christian” values.
David, I don’t think you understand what I was talking about. Of course there should be a separation between church and state – I am a firm belever in that.
However, the government should not be in control of who lives and dies. If you disagree, that is your opinion.
We as a society feel entitled… we feel like we should be able to live forever. I’m not saying it is wrong to try and help everyone live as long as possible, just that… this is impossible (for one, since we are mortal), and that there are better means of achieving this, than through Gov’t control of our lives.
In reality, if everyone (and I am talking about every single soul on earth) helped each other, this whole issue wouldn’t even exist. This doesn’t happen because, unfortunately, we (as a whole) are self focused.
I am just providing a spiritual point of view. Take what you would like from that
The government can’t effectively deliver the mail & people want them to regulate healthcare?
The sense of entitlement in our society is disgusting & the lengths a politician will go to satisfy the entitled is pathetic.
Some people apparently believe every dollar is property of the state & the state has the RIGHT to redistribute that dollar as the state sees fit. I couldn’t disagree more.
Liberals claim to be anti-establishment yet vote for larger government; then cite a founding document drafted to negate the purpose of their vote … its hilariously insane.
Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.
By the way – who ever tried to throw religion in someones face.. that was classy.
Yes, Tom. I realize that, and also that there are several other cases going through courts, which is why I think the reform opponents are premature in popping open their champagne.
Who has the ability to be more spiritual, an individual, a group of neighbors, a group of neighborhoods, or a big centralized government. And, as far as compassion, I point you to my last post. It is alive and well and yes, the “rich” are major players. For the most part, they don’t sit in their “towers” atop hordes of cash counting it hour after hour while we lowly working serfs labor under the heavy handed yoke of their menders. Except in California, where the menders are now the public sector union leardership dolling out billions in return for billions. Wake up Dems, this isn’t your fathers Dem party, its Andy Stern’s party.
Thank you Tom for pointing out where the liberals have gone wrong. Using class warfare is their favorite tactic. It isn’t working out so well for them. Support for this bill is waning and many states including Arkansas today has filed against the unconstitutional mandates. This bill should be dismantled and exposed for what it is, a redistribution of wealth nightmare where the government takes charge of everyone’s lives and destroys what is left of our economy. We are counting on the new Congress and the States who have challenged this law to stand tall next year and do the right thing.
Well, Tom, you are so correct….the Dems ain’t my grandfather’s Dems. But check it out…neither is the GOP my grandmother’s GOP. The “small government” “small spending” party of the past…Silent Cal and Hoover of the Hoovervilles…. The GOP has joined in in the jollies…even when they controlled the house and senate, they continued to allow the spending, while denying the revenue side.
You proudly point to the billionaires who are giving up half of their personal wealth….Well, I DO think that is laudable…and I also note that living on half of 20 billion is still very doable. I guess these folks realize that they can’t take it with them, and that they have more than they could ever spend in their lifetime or their children’s lifetime and it is time to give back. But I draw a different lesson here; not that the “rich” are inherently magnanimous and “charity” can take care of all our ills, but rather that these people realize that those that have much SHOULD give back more. Warren Buffett certainly has said words to that effect while indicating that his tax rate should be signiuficantly higher.
And another thing…why should some very hard worker earning 30,000 a year be considered a “charity” case anyway? Is his contribution or is his labor worth less than that of Bill Gates? Do you really believe that? People don’t like to have to take “charity.” I prefer to think of government social programs as vehicles that can help provide our fellow citizens with decent education, decent healthcare and access to it, and decent job opportunities.,,not “hand outs” to the indolent and lazy entitlement queens.
So, if you all are so worried about costs, and if you all are so worried about deficits that you deny cost effective access to healthcare to almost all of our citizens (we DO agree that costs are way too high) why are you not willing to have the “wealthy” pay more…to the tune of a niggardly three or four percent of excess income? If you want, I will even let you redefine the threshold from 250,000 to 1,000,000….
And what’s with this estate tax sneak play? THAT is really productive and needed…and holding extension of unemployment benefits hostage to all that? What is wrong with you all? If you rant about deficits, then close the loopholes, take off the special interest subsidies, and simplify the tax code….but do not ever think that making those with very high incomes pay more is wrong or not viable. You have your self stated billionaires indicating exactly that….probably because they know that a lot of their wealth was due to being in the right place at the right time…and a bit of luck and a lot of perseverance….but not all due solely to their own efforts…..
So don’t tell me about the DEms unless you admit that the GOP is just as culpable…they want everyone else to pay the piper…except those that can best afford it.
Why is it that the most wealthy among us refuse to voluntarily pay more taxes? The federal gov’t actually has a fund to accomodate those payments. Anyone on this board who wants to pay more to cover the hapless and clueless are free to do so. So, put YOUR money where your mouth is and keep your mitts off of mine.
Tiresis aka Cassandra, you are tiresome with your unrelenting attacks. Please cite me some examples of liberal multi millionaires who are as charitable as John Huntsman, Bill Gates. John Kerry avoids paying taxes on his yacht and most of them only give a pittance to charity. How much of the wealthy’s income is enough for you. 10% of the wealthy pay 60% of the taxes already. Should we take away 70,80 or 90% of what they make in order for your Progressive friends to spend it wastefully? What we need is a complete overhaul of the tax code, eliminate all the loopholes and put everyone on a flat or fair tax. The middle and lower middle taxpayers should pay something to have skin in the game. The government needs to cut out all earmarks, discretionary spending and cut their department budgets drastically and then we can talk about balancing the budget.
Riddle me this. If we force the companies to provide coverage for sick people and we don’t require healthy people to pay into the system, how will the insurance system support itself?
Also, our Per Capita health spending will reach over $13k in the next decade. How will the average person be able pay taxes, healthcare costs and still be able support themselves and a family. Are incomes in America going to go up at the same rate as HC spending? As a % of GDP, no country on earth spends as much as we do. Period.
Start thinking of America as a potentially bankrupt nation, unless the fundamentals are changed. Where is the money going to come from?
Here’s what I know:
Obama’s president. He’s gonna be president for at least another 2 years. He’ll do some things that you’ll like and some that you won’t. Either way, unless you happen to be an elected official, there ain’t a damn thing you can do about it. Go ahead, get angry. Post things on the internet either supporting him or against him. He doesn’t care.
What I do know is that this is a time to be thankful for what you have. As messed up as this country is, it’s still the best in the world.
Enjoy your morning cup of coffee. Talk to your coworkers, maybe smile at someone you’ve never seen before. Make someone laugh today. Go home tonight and hug your family and remind them that you love them. At any rate, count your blessings and take nothing for granted.
Good Liberals, play the class warfare card. You cannot have a civil or intellectual debate without playing the class warfare card – It’s all the rich conservatives fault? That’s you guys can argue? You don’t have to be a “rich conservative” to understand it’s not the governments responsibility to monitor every aspect of our life and shove a healthcare bill that the majority of Reps and Sens did not read! But as good left winged radical liberals, oh I’m sorry you’re new identity is to be called “progressives” you want what everyone else has (since your playing the class warfare card, thought I would too). Obama’s radical agenda for America is taking this country down the wrong road and his radical healthcare bill is proof positive.
Cass, you have a case of intellectual alcoholism where you continue to drink from the pool of resentment of what others have or have achieved. You use every intellectual deflective device to convince yourself of their insincerity, their greed, and their self indulgence. You try to convince yourself that income and wealth are solely the result of serendipitous or fortuitous events and thus are “undeserved”. You use these thoughts to give yourself moral justification to for the vicariously taking of he property of others by the government all while granting yourself the belief that everyone who doesn’t dream about this redistribution of someone else’s income and wealth is a malefactor.
You do all of this meowing without every mentioning what you think a citizen should give to the country, Should it be 60%, 70%, 100%?
As for your fixation on the estate tax aka the “death tax”, I would expect your coveting of accumulated wealth. Redistributionist like you want a shot at annual income and loathe the fact that unspent income becomes wealth and that wealth also needs to be confiscated for the “good of all”. Grabbing wealth is the second fang of your ilks lethal bite at captialism.
You cannot, or will not, allow people to accumulate any wealth since that is an afront to your definition of “fairness”. And that opinion is not tarnished when an Iowa family has to sell off the farm it has worked for 50 years to pay off this tax when the family patriarch passes on. To you, this is “fair”.
Well, Cass, fortunatlely, you are far outnumbered by Americans who are diametrically opposed to just such destructive thoughts and who are buoyed by the ample historical examples of the abject failure of redistributionism, albeit, communism, socialism, fascism, statism or any other “ism” which uses the authoriy of the state to wreak “justice” on us all.
As for your veiled reference to the tax battle going on in Congress. I am not wasting my time over a 3% argument. This whole debate is nonsense and comes down to whether the rich should pay an extra 3%-from a 35% to 38% for the “rich”. Unfortunately, your Dem friends need to use this issue to keep the redistributionist in line by keeping the class warfare emotion at a frenzy. I offer you as Exhibit A.
As concerns your slant on past Repub spending, you know my thoughts on that and you also know that this past election was a repudiation of spending by both parties, so your arguing points are moot.
Waynje, what Constitution are you ready. Where is the govenment allowed to “compete” with the private sector, in CHINA!!!!. And, your analogy regarding auto insurance is so far off the mark it surprising it is used in an insurance blog. Auto liability insurance is required to PROTECT THIRD PARTIES, not FIRST parties as is the case for health insurance.
And your comments about healthcare make it seem that you want universal free healthcare. Well, advance that point further and tell us all how this will be paid for, how much, and by whom.
Fortunately Tom, the battle for the hearts and minds of America seems to be swinging to the Conservative side. The Progressive Left represented by Cass/Tiresis and their wealth redistributionist friends doesn’t seem to be playing so well these days. America showed on 11-2 that it is still a center/right country and will continue to cull the ranks of the idiot left from positions of power. They are all well known and have been targeted for defeat in the next election cycle. We do need to be vigilant and make sure the Conservatives we elected do the right thing and hammer away at Big Spending programs and repeal or defunding this bill. The courts will take a long time seeing this through. It is time now to go the fiscal route for the good of the country.
Tom, thanks for the diatribe; it is always SO helpful…but not to the point at all. TAR, sometimes I wonder about you. Common Sense, I agree with you about tax loopholes, excess and stupid and wasteful government spending. However, I would redirect the first round of gutting spending to the special interest giveaways, the waste in the defense budget, and the bloated benefits of federal (and state and local workers) especially healthcare benefits for which they rarely pay a fair share or a share equivalent to what those of us in the private market pay.
I also agree that everyone should have “skin in the game” but let’s then also note that two of the GOP millionaires running for office this past election in my state paid no taxes for the past two years…while still maintaining an enviable lifestyle; it is not only the “poor” who take advantage of these many loopholes, so let’s all be fair here.
Insofar as class warfare, I cannot help but see the opposite side of the coin…that in fact the “rich” including Wall Street, large banks, large corporations, etc., are in fact, waging a class warfare on the rest of the “lower” classes. The benfits of the severe tax reductions under Bush and Reagan have done nothing but concentrate the “wealth” over the past few decades. Meanwhile, all the job creation, trickle down theory, etc., didn’t seem to work very well as this past recession that still lingers with joblessness and frozen credit to small businesses continues. It also seems that the large corps, while very chary about getting and keeping theirs, are not willing to begin hiring again but would rather sit on their treasure chests for acquisition or stock dividends.
You do not gut the safety nets, before you gut the stupidity. You do not gut the safety nets before you eliminate egregious spending abuses in other sectors first.
As for the death taxes, as you so erroneously label them, then exempt illiquid land assets so the family farmer can pass the land. But isn’t this what “life insurance to fund taxes” is for also? You all are so quick to point out some of these issues, but fail to recognize the other issues….like the Waltons, of whom several have fortunes in the billions. And that money is working for all of us how? Besides, there are enough shelters and enough high priced legal help to preserve all of this wealth for the fortunate few, so what is your problem here? And yes, a lot of this wealth is, in fact, fortuitous as well as earned, so don’t get on your very high horse here. So…go ahead…set the limit higher, exclude land assets for agriculture…I don’t care…but for heaven’s sake, recognize the income erosion of the middle class and the erosion of their financial security before you go spouting off about socialism and communism. Tom, you think because you write well and have a good sarcastic bent, that you are right. Guess what…you are no better than some of the other wild eyed nazis that post here; you accuse me of “socialist class warfare” but you revert to your name calling position also. Just THINK a bit further past the past election, the looming elections, the names and labels, and think of pragmatic(humane) solutions without reverting to considering everyone who needs healthcare and insurance is some lazy, entitlement slob; that everyone that has an upside down mortgage was a tool of Fannie and Freddie; and that every social ill is due to the desire to “progessively” solve some of the social issues our country faces.
I do not envy nor covet; I just think that there are social responsibilities that can be afforded without continuing deficits by asking those with more to give a bit more. And 60,70,90% WHERE DID THAT COME FROM…you all couldn’t even stand the 3% increase! Raise the upper bracket and cut the waste…we would have enough for social programs and stable tax rates for all.
Cass, I agree with about 20% of what you say. Closing tax loopholes and implementing a “fair” tax is what is needed. Taxing estates on income that has had taxes already paid on it is nothing but redistribution of wealth and affects many in this country.
At the same time we revise the tax laws, government needs to go on a budget reduction diet. This country cannot afford all these social programs when the revenue is down. European countries already have received the message and are taking steps to reduce their budgets and our new leaders need to follow suit. We should have no bills submitted with earmarks and they should be only single item bills, not loaded with sweeteners or other left wing social programs.
The new Congress has pledged that they will send a bill per week to the President to cut spending. They had better do it or will pay the consequences. We have had enough of the big spending politicians and it is high time we get our fiscal house in order. If the President vetos these bills, his political future will be bleak indeed.
Tiresis, THE MONEY I EARN IS NOT YOUR MONEY AND YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO HAVE MY MONEY… PERIOD.
Yeah, there are millionaires and billionaires out there… some who have earned it and others who have been lucky (and even some who have stolen it).
But the point is… we all strive to have what they have and the great thing about our nation is that we all have the opportunity to have that.
Yes I agree, who needs billions of dollars – no one. But it’s their money, not mine. I make my money and they make theirs. Those like you who say they need to give more are simply jeolous, lazy, or bored. Why you are complaining about those who provide millions of jobs, pay 60+% of all taxes, and give more to charity than you could make in 10 lifetimes, they are out working becoming richer than you.
For heavens sake people… this is AMERICA, the land of opportunity. When did “progressives” become such a bunch of whining lazy babies?
Without our free market system, where do you think we would be right now?
Welfare breeds welfare. Keep government out of my life because they have proven they will fail time and time again.
Tiresis, you don’t know what my game is. Gee that was your saying on a different thread. Your class warfare and partisan-ship gets old. What does the “GOP” millionaire running for office have to do with anything? Except your disdain for the GOP. Why not have a problem with millionaire Rep. Alan Grayson who has no problem spending taxpayer money. Or Millionaire elitist Barbara Boxer who’s husband benefited dearly from the Senate Committee’s she’s sat on and awarded federal gov contracts to supposed “private firms” or how about that elder multi-millionaire Statesman John Kerry who screwed his own state when he docked his “Yacht” in Rhode Island to escape the state taxes in MASS.? When he’s caught red handed the excuse; well oh ah um it’s being rehabed, yea right and Ted Kennedy was a good driver! Oh but it’s always the GOP or those greedy conservatives who are to blame. Let’s blame Rick Scott because he’s a millionaire, let’s be envious of his entrepeneurial gift, his hard work and ingenuity. The US Constitution states to “Promote the General Welfare”. It does not state to fund or provide the general welfare. It does not state the government must fund (which is the taxpayers) it says to “Promote the General Welfare”. Your guy won in NOvember 2008, but in the last 20 months we’ve found out what “Change” means. His radical left wing socialmarxist agenda is not in step with our Founding Fathers. Slowly he is dismantling the very fabric of our Constitutional Republic, playing the race and class warfare cards that you and your ilk are gladly following. Driving a wedge to divide this country, some consensus builder he’s turned out to be. There is enough blame to go around for the fiscal irresponsibility of all our elected officials. They are failing the taxpayers, they are failing Americans and they are failing the United States. Talk to people in New Jersey and ask them how Multi-Millionaire Gov John Corsine of the evil Wall Street empire Goldman Sachs was? So spare us your class envy and class warfare diatribe!
Cass, Circular arguments is the best you can do. You never seem to get tired of chasing your tail. Your economic theory is so shot with flawed thinking that there is no where to begin to set you straight, or even break your hamster run.
By the way, leaving money in the private sector does create jobs as tacitly admitted to by Pres O when he crafted the tax extension, thereby admitting that his government job creation stimulus model was a failure. So, I think the debate over Reagan/Bush tax rates has won the day and defeated the heretofore highly touted Keynesian mutliplier championed by your progressive friends.
Your continued rich man/poor man theme is tiresome and thread bare. It reminds me of a scene from the Michael Myers movie spoofing whatI envision your view of the world—a secret society made up of rich people who rule the world called the “Pentaverate”, a group comprimsed of the Gettys, the Rothchilds, the Queen, the Vatican and Colonel Sanders (“before he went tits up”). I guess we can now include the Waltons in that elite group.
On a serious note, if for once you could stop beating the “off with their heads” drum, lets do get back to cutting spending cuts (not gutting-that’s pure hyperbole designed to deflect) and eliminating loop holes by implementing a two tired flat tax. I suspect; however, that doing so will be difficult since the “rich” will be left with some “riches” and that will skew your resolve.
I would start with repeal of healthcare, and move on to all government Departments, including Defense, where a freeze of budgets at 2008 levels would be put in place for the next 3 years while we work on a balanced budget. The other cuts would fall into place and would avoid your “gutting” worries.
Wow! Reading all these posts was exausting….but very interesting. After reading all of them, I guess I would have to say that I am of the “progressive” persuation when it comes to this topic….However, I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to move over to the “conservative” side of things if I could find somebody to pay me a decent livable wage for the extremely hard 60 hours a week that I have put so much blood, sweat and tears into for the last 25 years. How come I work so hard, have no family and still struggle to put gas in my car so I can get to work the next day just to do it all over again????…..I guess some of (as Jerry Springer says)you are just born lucky and don’t have to deal with what a struggle life can be even if you are a hard worker!!
On a happier note, the Phillies re-signed Cliff Lee. He turned down an extra $50+ million to sign with the Yankees. See, money DOESN’T always buy happiness!
We can mandate Auto Insurance and Workers’ Compensation. Who will be hurt by millions not having Health Insurance? Ultimately all of us. If some want to “self-insure”, maybe they need to put up a bond or some collateral. They do let people take high deductibles. In the long run we are all better off if everyone can have affordable health insurance. I know people who are taking chances and going withour health insurance now so that they can get in on a more affordable policy in the future. Mainly it is because they can’t afford the high premiums.
Cut the crap, Tom. We are saying a lot of the same things. All I want to do is to make sure that before we cut, we make sure the “cuts” do not fall on those who can least afford to lose the safety net. And…what is so wrong about that?
And all I am saying is that there are those that are better able to contribute than others…and what is so wrong with that? Not class warfare, not confiscatory rates, but common sense. You are so consumed with the “deficits” as am I…so you’all counldn’t find it in your hearts (or purses) to pony up an extra three percent while we have some time to review what gets cut and what doesn’t?
Your response (as well as that of TAR and CommonSense) is more bashing. Why don’t you just admit that your progressive/liberal bashing and socialist accusations are just another way of masking your inability to justify the reason for not wanting that cheesy 3% additional income tax? Despite the nice words, and the pretty syntax, you have not justified why it is wrong to consider looking first to other expenses that we pay for than assuming that cuts must come from the safety net programs. Are you just cheap and cheesy? Talk about class warfare…..
we can mandate auto insurance because you want the priviledge to drive a car… we can mandate workmans comp because we are going to take care of the working man or woman that works in my company and suffered an injury while doing company business… but to mandate health insurance? not everyone wants it! if that is not clear enough, then you need to sit back and listen…
More bashing Tiresis? REally? You are the guy or gal playing the class warfare card. Your are the person chanting the Liberal/Progressive/Left Wing talking points. What we are supposed to take that? You come off with this sanctimonious kum-by-ya diversity response, but in the meantime bash the GOP and Conservatives. What a phony!!!
BTW good coup by the Phillies for getting Cliff Lee. I’m a Yankee fan and I didn’t see the Phillies in the picture, especially after they dumped him.
Let me be clear, the 3% left in the private sector will do more to build your safety net revenue than if left in the government’s hands.
You didn’t answer my question concerning taxes for the rich. Let’s try this, the human body has approximately 10 pints of blood, a vagrant in Los Angeles needs a blood transfusion, how many pints would you take from the rich man in New York City (home of Wall street jillionares)to help the vagrant who needs 10 pints of blood.
I agree, but the Wealth Re-Distributionist Progressive Left don’t see it that way. They are committed to their agenda and it is up to us to hand them their head. Amazing that we repudiated their agenda on 11-2 and they are still spouting off thinking this country owes them a living, free health care, unlimited unemployment benefits etc. We have the momentum now and they are extremely angry that the country is not going along with their plan.
Merle – Being treated doesn’t have anything to do with INSURANCE. It’s the ability to pay for the services received. We could self-insure & would we still be denied health care just because we didn’t have insurance? No… because we would be able to establish the ability to pay for the service. More than likely we would have to prove our ability to pay with the receptionist. If we cannot do so, she would either refer us to another practice or an emergency room. We would then go to the local hospital emergency room and get treated there. Since we cannot pay cash at the emergency room anymore than we could pay at the doctor’s office, we will be treated by virtue of laws put in place to recover from state and federal government some of the costs of an unpaid emergency room visit. We will go home treated, but we will not have established any kind of relationship to a doctor. Most likely, we will have been treated by an overworked and under-appreciated medical resident 72 hours into a 48-hour shift. In some cases, a medical practice who determines a patient is unable to pay will allow a patient to talk to the doctor briefly, either in the doctor’s office, in the waiting room, or briefly over the phone. Our local family physician would become the ER. I’m not sure there are too many ER’s that would flat out deny to treat anyone.
Get your facts straight!!
The solution is easy. The biggest debate that we always have is… where are we going to get the money after we spend it??? The government should have to operate on a fixed budget just like we have to. The answer is not “spend now” and let everyone including future generations pay for it.
You must not be a muliti-tasker Pragmatist. I handled numerous insurance tasks for customers while keeping up with the posts on this site. If you don’t have anything to contribute, just delete it from your email.
As for the rest of us, we are interested in seeing what the Florida judge does when the 20 states case goes forward. Hopefully, it will be the same as Virginia. The momentum has shifted.
Yea I guess we all should just keep our mouths shut and focus on our current work and let the Annointed One take care of us all. It’s time we cede our livelyhood back to the federal government and maybe get a job with the federal government doing insurance. How dare we have an opinion on such a controversal issue as healthcare. Thank you I will get back to work now.
Thanks so much for your helpful, constructive criticism. I just fail to see much benefit or result from these irate diatribes back and forth. We already know the people of this country are divided, probably by design. After all, what can we FIX about our government as long as we’re distracted arguing with each other. Yes, I know where the delete button is though I must say there’s a certain irony about “pragmatist” deleting “common sense”.
Prag, what I did not realize is how often these comment sections are read by officials and company officials. I had attended a meeting with a company to remain nameless, when an IJ article came out questioning it’s solvency and the comments took off. Most were negative and the company was in full damage control mode. The problem with feds, we know they don’t listen to the people and more concerned with a “legacy” as obama and pelosi have proven. Heck the legislators in Washington DC still don’t get it with all that’s going on with extending the Bush Taxes, Earmark laden budget, it’s like their parting shot for not getting re-elected an up yours American voter.
Hey Prag, I am not distracted, just fully awake about what is going on in the country. Millions of us “distracted” folks spoke on 11-2. To say that we are upset at Congress and this administration is putting it mildly. What is Congress’ approval rating, 13% now? These ousted Progressive Liberals have to go home now and face the music for the destruction they have wrought on this country. They may have to move to another state or country to avoid the flogging they deserve.
Thanks for your remarks. I’m in total agreement with you about the message WE sent on 11-2. I appreciate your remarks about how many top management people read these message boards. That does make it more worthy of attention so that maybe finally our voices can be heard. I’m personally so tired of feeling powerless against government and that’s why I’ve become much more “in to” writing my elected officials to at least try to be heard. Perhaps I’ve misjudged this message board.
I write to my representatives on Congress.org all the time on issues. It is like preaching to the choir because they are all conservative and have been the party of “No” to these Progressive Socialists and their agenda. Perhaps the new Congress will not disappoint like the outgoing crowd have been. They have been the worst in this nation’s history.
I read several (way too many, actually) of the posts and simply had to throw a big shout out to Seriously. You absolutely nailed it!
You did something that most politicians and talking heads fail to do in virtually every supposed intelligent conversation I hear. You challenged the very premise of the liberal / progressive argument rather than arguing the “feelings” or the “fairness” or the “outcomes” that are nothing more, in many instances, than distractions from the heart and soul of the issue at hand.
And since we are on the topic of challenging the premise, it continues to befuddle and amaze me that supposed educated individuals actually believe politicians will be successful in (or care a lick about) solving our individual trials and tribulations.
This train wreck of a health care bill is no more about health care than welfare is about helping the poor. It’s nothing more than the latest attempt at a power grab by our federal government.
Confiscation of income and wealth coupled with spending other people’s money is at the core of power hungry elitists interested in nothing more than maximizing personal power.
How about simply protecting my liberty and freedom as outlined and intended in the Constitution? That’s really all I’m looking for….nothing more, nothing less. I’ll take care of the rest.
Progressives bank on a bunch of suckers to lay down while a central authority takes over our lives. Well, we seem to have a lot of suckers in our midst.
The bottom line is far too many of our fellow citizens are soft. The rugged individualists and self-reliant people who formed and built this country would be ashamed of us.
Thank you Buckeye for your post about Seriously. If you are from Ohio, thank you for kicking the majority of the Progressive crowd out on 11-2. Kasich will do a great job as Governor. They talk about Ohio being a battleground state in every election. Looks like they woke up on 11-2 and it will be tough slogging for the Demwits there from now on.
Comon man! Anyone with a brain could tell you that this pile of cr*p is unconstitutional. Let look at the argument of the liberals. Car insurance, hmmm you dont have to own a car do you?
Next will be Obama and his Union buddies telling us it is mandatory for all citizens to buy a GM piece of junk. (Thats “Governmnet Motors” if you didnt now know) Someone please tell me the difference between the government telling me that I have to purchase health insurance or a Gov Motors vehicle, both are good for the economy, both are not provided for in our bill of rights or US Constitution as rights (BTW, only the 2nd amendment gives you a “right” in the US Constitution.) Everything else is giving you and the States protection from an overbearing Federal Government.
You see the Constitution provides you and I and the States protection from the likes of Obama, Eric Holder, Janet Napolitano, Kathleen Sabelis and Tim Gietner.
Thank God for the US Constitution! and this certainly is against it in spirit and its purpose, lets just pray that the activist courts protect us from the other two branches of Government.
Come on Florida judge. You need to rule like the Virginia judge did. 20 states have lined up to challenge this monstrocity. It is definitely unconstitutional, but that doesn’t seem to matter to the Progressive Socialists, after all, it is a living document, right, and is meant to be interpreted to line up with their views. By the way Sarah, since you mentioned Government Motors, did you know that each vehicle they make has a Global Warming grade right on the sticker? These people are unbelievable. A very small minority of our country is made up of these fools and they are trying to run it. It is time for them to go. You forgot to name Nancy Pelosi, Dirty Harry Reid, Chuck Schumer, Tom Harkin, Barney Frank, the 40 or so Czars to the list. I’m sure I forgot a couple of dozen others that need to be run out of town on a rail.
I agree, Common Sense, on Frank and Pelosi. My point was they don’t need to lie to get elected.
The voters in their districts must be from a parallel universe since they know very well what they are getting from those two lunatics and still continue to send them back to Washington.
I have no room to talk, though, since Ohio has its share of humiliating representatives including Voinovich (Rhino who never saw a tax increase or spending program he didn’t like), Sherrod Brown and Dennis Kucinich (another fine political product of Cleveland / Cuyahoga County).
Listening to the radio yesterday (conservative talk radio, what else makes sense?) I heard that many states are planning to file documents that they will not accept this healthcare law in their state…asserting states rights over federal…which follows the constitution. Somewhat off topic: I had to do a presentation recently for a class about a Spanish speaking country; I chose Nicaragua. My research turned up horrible truths about what happened to that country when the socialists got control (Sandanistas, for those old enough to remember the name). It’s worth reading about this. They essentially turned the country from one of the wealthiest, most developed Central American country into the second poorest in all the Americas. They have “free” schooling and “healthcare” but it’s not available in all parts of the country because the country can’t fund it. Hear these drumbeats and you too can forecast the future.
Prag, as a follow up you might look at what the O admin is doing to Honduras. They kicked out their President because he attempted to amend the law limiting his terms, a violation of their Constituition. The O admin, in an attempt to curry favor with Venezuelan strong man Chavez, has worked to restore Pres defrocked Pres, Manuel Zalaya. The US has imposed trade sanctions on Honduras.
This admin seems to want to coddle our enemies and disrespect our allies. I just don’t get it, maybe they just do everything opposite of the last admin. We also picked a fight with Mexico over allowing their trucks in the US, this sparked a mini-trade war. What next???
Tom, This all goes to the goal of undermining free enterprise Capitalism in favor of Marxist Socialism. Obama supports all Socialist regimes everywhere and he probably welcomes several that have sprung up in South & Central America. Bolivia is about as bad as Venezuela. He won’t be happy until all these countries line up against us.
There has been much debate about competing philosophies. I think it is better not to talk in terms of Democrats and Republicans since I believe they are really cut from the same cloth. Maybe different sides or corners, but the same cloth nonetheless.
I think both political parties consider themselves the ruling elite and, in virtually every situation, think party first with country a distant second.
In other words, I believe both parties are in on the what appears to be nothing more than sinister actions by the government against the citizens for whom they should and claim to be working.
Rather than political parties, I think the debate is framed better in other ways: left vs. right, liberal vs. conservative, socialism vs. capitalism / free market or command & control / oppression vs. liberty & freedom.
In order to advance their agenda, I strongly believe the left MUST dupe the citizens and electorate into believing they want only the best for us. I also strongly believe they must convince them, even if only subtly, that the government is the only or at least the best answer to our trials and tribulations (whether real or imagined).
As a result, it also seems rather apparent that the left must also camouflage their agenda with things such as soaring rhetoric, discussions based on feelings rather than reasoned thought, crisis (again, whether real, concocted or, better yet, caused by liberal policies), social justice and/or boogeymen.
Ultimately, though, I think most liberals (a few exceptions would be Pelosi and Barney Frank) have to out and out lie about their true intentions or they never would get elected.
Call me crazy, but I don’t think the election booth lever would get pulled very often for someone who is an open proponent of such policies as higher taxes, ever increasing deficit spending, redistribution of income & wealth, weak national defense, business-killing regulation and unconstitutional power grabs.
Historical outcomes of socialism, as well as fundamental economic principles and human nature, should be obvious to any remotely informed individual with average cognitive abilities. I think most politicians are well aware of history and can at least be considered intelligent life forms.
In light of the above, one can reasonably conclude the detrimental actions they take are intentionally detrimental. I concluded this quite a long time ago. I could be wrong, but I struggle with the notion that they know nothing of history and are, in fact, illiterate.
I think they starve for socialism, especially since they would be the ones in charge. And we all know the ruling elite in charge within any socialist, communist or fascist regime live like royalty and are not subjected to the oppression they inflict on the masses.
Crisis appears to be the rule of thumb in advancing the left’s agenda. I think they actually like high unemployment, high prices at the gas pump, dependency on foreign oil, the class warfare they wage, insolvent Social Security, making our natural resources off-limits and deficit spending. What else is one to conclude when their actions will obviously end in overwhelming and predictable failure?
We have to wise up, ignore the speeches and start to think critically about the actions these people take. When given the choice between oppressive central planning and liberty & freedom, this young conservative will take the latter REGARDLESS of the issue at hand.
Collectivism has not and will never work. Left to their own devices, a free people living in a society fraught with liberty and freedom will do the right thing more times than not. This will not only result in individual advancement, but a charitable spirit aimed at those around us in need.
Great post Buckeye. I agree with almost all of it except Pelosi & Frank. Their districts don’t care what they say or do. They are made from the same cloth and subscribe to all their nonsense or they wouldn’t keep electing them. Frank had a very good conservative veteran running against him in November and he still didn’t stand a chance.
The Progressives goal is to dumb down our society to the point that people will vote for them on a single pitch like “Hope & Change” which lured many ill informed people to vote for the chosen one. Until Conservatives put forth candidates who can articulate ideas and debate and debunk these Socialist ideas, the country will be vulnerable to soaring rhetoric designed to win elections. Mr. Reach across the aisle failed miserably in all areas and look what we got. Thank goodness the country woke up from their slumber and we can only hope enough people will continue to pay attention and do a number on them in 12.
Yes, I did see a little about Honduras Tom. And yes, it does seem like this administration wants to just curry favor with our enemies (never going to happen, duh!) and insult our allies or just ignore them altogether. Look at it this way, we have one foot up now and only @ 2 years to get the other foot up also. The frog in the hot water is finally beginning to realize the plight and maybe we still have enough strength to jump out, if we can all work together and be of like mind.
Hey Buckeye, You did elect Kasich as Governor and I heard that you returned the legislature to conservative Republican hands. That’s progress, isn’t it? You did “fundamentally change” the picture in this battleground state. People in the rest of the country still wonder how a guy like Kucinich ever got elected to any post. He is as wierd as they get, kind of like Al Frankin in Minnesota. Voters brains must have frozen in that state after electing Jesse Ventura the wrestler as Governor.
Your mention of Franken hit home. I am in MN, the state where joke candidates get elected-Exhibit A- Jesse “The Body” Ventura. And the joke this year is Mark Dayton, former misfit Senator, who won by the narrowest of margins. Fortunately for us, the MN House and Senate went Republican, so his agenda of ever higher taxes will have a rought ride in a State that has overspent by several BILLION dollars.
Tom, I am from Texas and we would never elect jokers like these idiots. Texas picked up 4 additional House seats this year due to the influx of population from the northern rust belt states. They are coming here for jobs, lack of a state income tax and good climate both weatherwise and economic. Gov Perry was challenged by an Obama Progressive supporter this year and Perry won by around 500,000 votes so we tend to reject liberal solutions to problems.
Well, yes we do pretty well with our elections here in TX, sending clear statements of our feelings. But, we have re-elected Ricky. Ah, yes, that’s right….there wasn’t another valid choice. He IS studying the constitution quite thoroughly I hear to see how we can excuse ourselves from Obamacare. Still, he promised last election he would clear up our border security problem but two weeks later said he wasn’t going to do anything about it.
Hey Prag, I guessed you missed the recent article about Perry creating a force within the DPS to help with border enforcement. These guys are like Special Forces and have helicopters and weapons to help with border enforcement since our wonderful Federal Government will not do much to help. Do you think Bill White would do something like this? He was the mayor of the biggest sanctuary city outside of LA. He would have had open borders so they could come right in.
No, I certainly didn’t think Bill White would do any of that; that’s why I didn’t vote for him…. Anyway, the election I was referring to was the one before this. Not to say the things he’s doing now aren’t needed but they were needed four years ago also when he didn’t deliver on his campaign promise. It made it a lot harder to vote for him but there were no other really valid contenders for the job.
The Federal Government is charged with protection of our borders. They have failed completely. The previous Congress voted to build the fence and do the electronic monitoring, hire more agents etc ad nauseum. Perry is on record for asking the Feds several times to send more border patrol or troops to defend this border. It has fallen mainly on deaf ears. The President couldn’t even give him 5 minutes to talk when the President came to Texas. I guess Perry got tired of waiting for Obama to do something.
Do we really think the Obama administration cares if this is ruled unconstitutional? I personally believe they intend for buying insurance in the private sector to be deemed illegal. But they then intend to force us to buy it directly from the government. It’s an attempt at government take-over of the entire insurance industry.
The whole thing would be gone.
And that’s all I have to say about that.
Wow….how soon before Obama yells either racism or Gihad?
Wow. We found a judge willing to do the right thing. Supreme Court here they come. Hopefully, this whole dastardly bill will be deemed unconstitutional before it does permanent harm.
Hoooray! I hope there will be more states to follow.
Excellent!
have shown that the majority of the public supports almost all of the individual provisions of this bill. I would suggest that how it was passed sticks in the public’s craw than what was passed does.
Be careful what you wish for. One day you, too, may need the no preexiating clause; may have to purchase insurance on the open market; may get cancelled when you become sick; may have to help your unemployed college grad pay for health insurance; may hit your lifetime max, etc.
You may think you might be winning a victory, but for most of us, your victory will be Phyrrhic and will hurt more citizens than you could ever know.
Your enmity knows no bounds. The Constitutional argument is specious. The unintended consequences will be disastrous if “business as usual” returns. You are worried about costs and deficits? Just wait, if this bill is repealed……….The Supreme Court is now too political. Decisions are being made for political favoritism and not via law or precedent or even common sense. I surely do not want this decision in the hands of the GOP driven Supreme Court.
Don’t count your free-of-mandate chickens before they’re hatched. In federal court rulings, it’s now 2 to 1 in favor of Obamacare and the individual mandate. There’s a long way to go before it is supposed to go into effect in 2014.
This brings back a little bit of hope to the fact that it is obvious the founding fathers when they wrote our constitution did not mean to have the government provide healthcare for everyone.
The establishment of the exchanges and the participation requirement is not unconstitutional. I find it short sighted that the privilege conservatives want to throw up road blocks and fight the inevitable. This country can no longer afford to maintain such a expensive health care delivery system that lacks the ability and desire to provide basic health care to it’s citizens. What do you have thats better. Nothing! More obstruction and foot dragging as common citizens struggle with this issue.
Given that he has never played those two cards, the chance of that happening is nil. He has never lowered himself to the simpleton levels of so much of his peanut gallery opposition. Remember when he held the forum with his Republican legislator opposition a few months ago? Unprecidented.
You hit the nail on the head Henry. It is a core belief by the rich conservatives to attack the have-nots as freeloader for they have no voice are are thus very easy targets. It is only a matter of time before the middle class become healthcare have-nots. That day will come. When was the last time the cost for anyone’s healthcare premium actually went DOWN?
To those wishing for a repeal of healthcare reform;
I wish you and your family the continued good health that allows you to comfortably maintain your viewpoint.
I am concerned about pre-existing conditions, cancellation when an illness strikes and an unemployed colleg grad. My spouse had a co-worker laid off while his wife was fighting cancer. He found another job a short time later but there was a pre-existing condition – cancer. These were harding working middle class folks.
…Obamacare was watered down to irrelvance by the Republican health care lobby, so this is no big deal. Time to move on to what’s really necessary to immediately slash healthcare costs by 35% and improve outcomes – SINGLE PAYER.
Actually ours did last year. And I know of 2 people in our small company going through chemo.
It is wrong to force health insurance. Health care is a privilege not a right – it’s also a choice. Whatever happened to the market governing itself? Besides, anyone who thinks that a government requirement to carry insurance will work is a fool. If it did, there would not be UM coverage. I would take the penalty and not carry insurance. Really I would only get penalized if I ended up needing it and had to go to the doctor or hospital. And odds are I would still be ahead in paying a fine over the premiums. And therein lies the problem.
And the government really doesn’t need to be in my life anymore than it already is. The government needs to get out of all our lives. We have lost what the function of our government is supposed to be.
The reason rich conservatives care about where their tax dollars are spent is because conservatives actually PAY taxes unlike many of the appointees of the current administration. Why would rich liberals worry about paying the freight for others when they have their offshore accounts sheltering THEIR money?
Absolutely frightening that someone would actually want the government to control their healthcare… http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/midwest/2010/12/13/115607.htm
Hope you stay healthy to wish for that!
I haven’t read the opinion (I have real work to do at work), but if the judge only held the part that forces people to buy health insurance, while requiring insurance companies to cover the sick who buy insurance, how exactly is this suppoed to work out from a financial perspective?
Obamacare is not what the American people wanted. Many were wanting to believe in the utopian ideals personified by “Change we can believe in”. This was not a bad thing, but having the gov’t run healthcare is not the answer.
Health care costs were minimal for most folks until health insurance became popular. It was then when rich people took notice of how much money could be made by doctors, hospitals, pharaceutical companies, insurance companies and every one else involved. They all succeded in raising their profits(nothing wrong in that) and prices(something very wrong in that) for every American. That doesn’t work
The Euros-and every other nation with universal health care-capped costs by rationing coverage and essentially allow people to be sick or die waiting for surgery, therapy or medicines needed to live. That doesn’t work either as I don’t want some bureaocarat sending me a letter telling me I can’t have this or can’t get this done. Don’t tell me that it won’t as it happens now with my insureance company.
Lets let the current system keep on. The day when enough of us doesn’t have insurance, then those who benefit by it-the same doctors, hospitals, insurance companies and the like, will be forced to adjust their prices so that they can keep the doors open. Its not a pretty or easy or happy solution, but it will be market driven and will in the long run work for us. Just keep the gov’t out of medicine as much as we can now and we’ll keep our beloved republic and hopefully, won’t go broke paying our taxes each year. God Bless America
DW has the correct opinion & perspective. We need less governmnet!
Absolutely frightening that someone would actually believe big business would regulate and control themselves and stop treating all customers as factors of production.
Sarah, your post is funny as always. But, keep in mind our founding fathers had wooden teeth. There was no such thing as “healthcare” in those days. They just prayed and gave you whiskey…
But I do appreciate your tenacity!
Big business is not nearly as frightening as Big Government. I can’t believe anyone in their right mind wants government bureaucrats in charge of Healthcare. There are few, if any things government does well. Costs will continue to escalate (as they have already done)with the market struggling to accomodate the “Mandates” coming into play. Market based solutions and Tort Reform was the way to handle this, but instead, our Progressive leaders just had to ram it down our throats. REPEAL!
Tony, Actually medicine in those days primarily consisted of bleeding the patient. Washington was bled until he died. Kind of like what our politicians are doing to this country and this bill in particular.
DW, if you really believe that, then you should support Emergency Rooms declining to provide service to uninsured people for immediate care in order to save their lives. Maybe we could just throw them off the property, or designate an area outside hospitals for the uninsured to die…. especially since most of these people would buy insurance if they could (afford or be offered coverage due to pre-existing condition).
I hope you and your family continue to enjoy good health that allows you to be so pompous.
I bet you even call yourself a christian… Amazing.
And this even before the new healthcare bill takes effect.
Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services
http://www.fms.treas.gov/mts/mts0910.pdf
Page 10
Government is the cause of, not the solution to high medical costs.
It shall be an interesting three years.
Big business is not nearly as frightening as Big Government. The financial melt down was not frightening at all. Banks raising interests on timely paying clients for no reason not so bad. Those robo foreclosures are not a problem.
The writing is on the wall. Obamacare will be tweeked by the new Congress and the 2012 even newer Congress to a point of non-recognition.
Caps on medical malpratice (long overdue), in depth tort reform, selling across state lines and pure price competition. All this is done when insurance companies are confident the government can’t run it. Let the market run. What follows? The bulls.
Actually Tony I have not been blessed with good health. However, when I choose my employer I evaluated the total benefits package I was offered, including health insurance premiums and percentages and out-of-pocket costs.
And I am a Christian. I even help other people out. But we live in America, land of the free. I choose to help people and I shouldn’t be forced. In fact, I would give more if the government didn’t take so much, redistribute it to those who play the system, and leave those who need it without assistance. We have a duty to those who cannot help themselves, not to those who choose not to help themselves. The more the gov “helps” the worse we will all be.
Tony, Your an idiot! They do have insurance, it’s called medicaid. There isn’t a hospital that will refuse anyone in an emergency. I have health insurance that is paid for by me and my employer. I know people with medicaid that don’t pay anything and have better coverage. All I’m saying is these “poor” people who can’t afford it, already have tax payer provided coverage.
FYI- It’s Christian, and yes I am. Jesus taught: for the people to take care of one another, not rely on the government.Maybe you should go back to insurnace school and learn what “pooling risk” is. Sharing the burdon of cost -there’s a free lesson for you.
Tony – This is not the case in this country to refuse ANYONE medical care whether they are insured or not. That is why many of the clinics in AZ, NM, TX have had to close because of providing health care to illegal immigrants & never getting reimbursed. Also, we provide healthcare to those from Canada & other countries, who have the subsidized healthcare & they would rather come here to have the BEST healthcare in the world rather than be put on a waiting list or be put off for procedures that their health providing GOVERNMENT deems unecessary. Since when does mandating whether individuals carry healthcare or not determine whether you are a Christian?…. AMAZING!
Hey Kansan, The financial meltdown with the sub prime mortgages was mostly due to government meddling in the affairs of business. Banks were told they had to make loans to everyone whether they could pay or not. Barney Frank & Chris Dodd refused to reign in Fannie & Freddie for their practices. They are too big to fail so we keep bailing them out every few months and still nothing is done and the housing crisis keeps getting worse on the foreclosures. Big Government is the instigator of the financial problems we have in this country.
What K Street lobbyist came up with this name, and why are so many commenters here parroting it? The healthcare act was overwhelmingly legislation already in the Congressional hopper, not the act of a single person.
DW, thanks, and sorry. I wish you well.
I get a little upset when the most fortunate people get greedy, and forget there are a lot of hardworking, god fearing people who cannot find coverage or get taken advantage of (non renewal, exclusions etc.).
A little story about big business and how they treat their customers. A doctor in rural America who owned a small practice for 27 yrs. He carried major med was loyal to a single carrier for this entire time. He got sick, very sick and needed kidney transplant. His carrier dropped him. Then he spent his life savings (and children’s inheritance) trying to stay alive. After 5 yrs of struggling, he died, leaving behind a mountain of debt.
Now, I voted for Obama in order to see some changes in how we view healthcare in this country. I’m disappointed with the result and think most of this bill needs to be repealed. But at the very base of it all, I feel we need to take care of our citizens (those born here and pay taxes). I understand the European model will not work here.. our cost of services Per Capita and % of GDP are way too high. But, there has to be a way. There just has to.
Now onto the Supremes. Judicial activism is not a conservative bent, construing the rights of the individual against an oppressive mandate is. This portion of the law will be deemed unconstitutional and will take out the center piece of this legislation which will then require that most of the rest of the 2,700 pages be stripped down to the several things that most of us agree upon. And, the new bill will add some cost control, such as tort reform, to really make some specific laser like changes.
Monty, differeing opinions by different courts now means that the Supremes will be required to make a ruling for all the courts to follow. The end will come very some time next year.
Tony, As slick Willy was prone to say, I feel your pain. Yes, there have been problems with the Healthcare System in this country, but to replace it with the Progressive Government Bureaucratic system would be a disaster of biblical proportions. The folks spoke on 11-2 and sent a loud message to Congress about repealing this bill. They could have written a 100 page bill that would have reformed, but not destroyed Healthcare in this country. Everyone is frustrated and upset that a small group of Progressive politicians rammed something through that the majority of Americans didn’t want.
Stop calling this ‘Healthcare Reform’ and ‘Obamacare’. The bill does not address the ability to receive healthcare or the quality of the healthcare delivered. It simply addresses who will pay for it (among a bunch of other incideous and expensive items that have absolutely nothing to do with health care or health insurance).
The only question that needs to be asked and answered is ‘Does the Government have the authority to force you to buy a product?’
Well, the judge’s ruling is not much help, the answer is sometimes. For example, if you choose to buy a motor vehicle, you can be compelled to buy insurance for its use. However, the government does not have the authority to force you to buy the automobile.
So, should people be compelled to buy health insurance? No, and that is as it should be. Had the Obama administration payed attention to the proposal presented to it to build upon the VA medical centers and create a delivery platform open to everyone, insured or not, this conversation would not be necessary.
The government has the constitutional authority to compete in the healthcare delivery system without affecting the rest of the system as it currently exists.
With a headline like that, I guess we know how the Insurance Journal feels about it. Which is strange, because the insurers *want* the individual mandate. Otherwise, how else could they cover risks in guaranteed markets? BTW, the reason why healthcare is expensive is because rates are set by the insurers and providers, and not by a disinterested third party.
first of all, the american people are the ones that need to have healthcare AVAILABLE for them to use. they should get the best of care despite costs. but needs to be regulated is that costs of medical itself is getting out of hand. but then again, we let it get out of hand, just like we allow the oil industry the same. how many of you folks noticed it’s rising again!?
here’s another issue, you can’t madate LIBERTIES or PURSUIT of HAPPINESS. if i belong to a religion that does not believe in the current health methods. how many of the indians don’t believe in our health methods? are you going to mandate them to have insurance as well?
illegals – why are they allow to use our healthcare system when they we have enough problems of our own americans? why do we allow that federal gov’t to have this law mandated, but when it comes to illegals, how long will it take to get that fixed? we spend more money on fruitless things than what needs to be done. i bet we can find jobs for americans, if we finally remove the illegals who get jobs because they don’t mind taking less. but then the gov’t loses money because there are no taxing those folks who are illegal. no social security, no medicaid money is coming from this illegal activity. and you wonder why some of the states have problems with their own budgets?!
The fact that the individual mandate is a critical part of Obamacare doesn’t make it constitutional. If this decision doesn’t survive a Supreme Court review, then I fear the floodgates will open for other intrusions on people’s freedom by the federal government.
This is all one big political nightmare. The Progressives want to spend this country into bankruptcy by providing everything from cradle to grave. They want to give the illegals status for Social Security and Healthcare so they will vote for them and keep control of the massive Federal Government. The Conservatives want the rule of law and reduction of government and want the hand outs stopped for the lazy and the illegals. The American People want the political games to stop and the government to do the right thing for the hard working real Americans. It is shameful to see the class warfare that is going on. We may need another election cycle to get these idiots out of office.
As Christians (those who claim to be on this posting), we need to realize that God is in control… not us.
What happened before health insurance and health care? … people died.
Now we all feel it is our right to live forever…
I think we need to put it into perspective. Yes, as Christians we should do everything in our power to help others (and for the most part we do) – however, government is not necessarily the best way to do this (because there motivation is not God focused).
Oh Henry, I suppose you tell that to all the girls, its inevitable, so lay back and enjoy it. A lot of thought went into that statement. No further commentary is needed.
Spiratual, you cannot be serious. You liken those who desire access to healthcare – to prevent losing their homes, becoming sicker, and dying – as people who just want to live longer? How about quality of life. Does that put it into perspective enough for you?? God is NOT in control. We are in control as we use our “god given” talents to live our lives. Since the articles does mention the constitution, you should know the writers of this document intended for the church and government to be two seperate entities.
I can’t believe all the supposed insurance people out there and not one comment concerning Adverse Selection. This judge and any other judges who rule in a similar fashion guarantee the concept of adverse selection is imbeded in this program. Obama’s not even an insurance guy and he gets that concept.
After reading all the comments, some of those folks that seem to be more in favor of the law as is point to the fact that our credo, religious or not, is to help others, or those less fortunate than ourselves. Well, the news is that many of us do and the US is the most generous country when it come to charitable giving. The BIG difference is that we are not forced to do so – we do so of our own FREE will. But, by forcing us all to do so at greater cost to everyone, the end result is that many of us won’t be left with enough money to continue voluntary charitable giving and the government will take that aspect over too, so we’ll all end up being subserviant to the government, which I fear is just what many so-called “progressives” actually want.
Beyond that, I still cannot figure out how adding so many people to the rolls of the insured and removing the existing condition roadblock to obtaining health insurance (a noble goal, I might add, but perhaps accomlished in a different way), will somehow reduce healthcare costs. I don’t see how the enconmics work out for that and I don’t believe the government has either. Most of what was used to promote and pass this law was rhetoric and sound bites, not to mention secret deals behind closed doors.
Where exactly in the constitution is the “seperation of church and state” clause. Ohhh, you mean the first amendment where no laws respecting the “establishment of a religion’ was penned. That certainly doesn’t mean that religion is to be totally taken out of our laws; nor ignored for its moral values.
As for the usual cadre of “rich” haters, I would point out that the rich do contribute heavily to healthcare foundations, hospitals and other worthy causes. I know it problably doesn’t fit the rich hater paradigm to consider that but consider this-this week the total number of BILLIONAIRS joining the GIVING PLEDGE. There are now 57 BILLIONIRRES who have pledged to give 1/2 of their total wealth (not income) to charity. The rick v. poor ilk only have one note, a high sour one that is used to try and drive the debate into an us versus them populist movement.
Obamacare is an Obamination as it is focused on insurance costs and leave health provider costs out of the equation. For that reason alone, it is doomed to fail in is goal of making healthcare “affordable” or available to everyone. This is a Trojan horse sent to us to get to the ultimate victory of a single payer system, similar to the one that is bankrupting the EU. If you think the British riots last week over raising tuition is something, then wait for the riots for “free” healthcare.
All these post ignore the elephant in the room, cost. We are teetering on the verge of bankruptcy while we all argue who is more “christian”, those that fight for solvency, or those who demand insolvency as bona fides for their “christian” values.
David, I don’t think you understand what I was talking about. Of course there should be a separation between church and state – I am a firm belever in that.
However, the government should not be in control of who lives and dies. If you disagree, that is your opinion.
We as a society feel entitled… we feel like we should be able to live forever. I’m not saying it is wrong to try and help everyone live as long as possible, just that… this is impossible (for one, since we are mortal), and that there are better means of achieving this, than through Gov’t control of our lives.
In reality, if everyone (and I am talking about every single soul on earth) helped each other, this whole issue wouldn’t even exist. This doesn’t happen because, unfortunately, we (as a whole) are self focused.
I am just providing a spiritual point of view. Take what you would like from that
The government can’t effectively deliver the mail & people want them to regulate healthcare?
The sense of entitlement in our society is disgusting & the lengths a politician will go to satisfy the entitled is pathetic.
Some people apparently believe every dollar is property of the state & the state has the RIGHT to redistribute that dollar as the state sees fit. I couldn’t disagree more.
Liberals claim to be anti-establishment yet vote for larger government; then cite a founding document drafted to negate the purpose of their vote … its hilariously insane.
Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.
By the way – who ever tried to throw religion in someones face.. that was classy.
Yes, Tom. I realize that, and also that there are several other cases going through courts, which is why I think the reform opponents are premature in popping open their champagne.
Who has the ability to be more spiritual, an individual, a group of neighbors, a group of neighborhoods, or a big centralized government. And, as far as compassion, I point you to my last post. It is alive and well and yes, the “rich” are major players. For the most part, they don’t sit in their “towers” atop hordes of cash counting it hour after hour while we lowly working serfs labor under the heavy handed yoke of their menders. Except in California, where the menders are now the public sector union leardership dolling out billions in return for billions. Wake up Dems, this isn’t your fathers Dem party, its Andy Stern’s party.
Thank you Tom for pointing out where the liberals have gone wrong. Using class warfare is their favorite tactic. It isn’t working out so well for them. Support for this bill is waning and many states including Arkansas today has filed against the unconstitutional mandates. This bill should be dismantled and exposed for what it is, a redistribution of wealth nightmare where the government takes charge of everyone’s lives and destroys what is left of our economy. We are counting on the new Congress and the States who have challenged this law to stand tall next year and do the right thing.
Well, Tom, you are so correct….the Dems ain’t my grandfather’s Dems. But check it out…neither is the GOP my grandmother’s GOP. The “small government” “small spending” party of the past…Silent Cal and Hoover of the Hoovervilles…. The GOP has joined in in the jollies…even when they controlled the house and senate, they continued to allow the spending, while denying the revenue side.
You proudly point to the billionaires who are giving up half of their personal wealth….Well, I DO think that is laudable…and I also note that living on half of 20 billion is still very doable. I guess these folks realize that they can’t take it with them, and that they have more than they could ever spend in their lifetime or their children’s lifetime and it is time to give back. But I draw a different lesson here; not that the “rich” are inherently magnanimous and “charity” can take care of all our ills, but rather that these people realize that those that have much SHOULD give back more. Warren Buffett certainly has said words to that effect while indicating that his tax rate should be signiuficantly higher.
And another thing…why should some very hard worker earning 30,000 a year be considered a “charity” case anyway? Is his contribution or is his labor worth less than that of Bill Gates? Do you really believe that? People don’t like to have to take “charity.” I prefer to think of government social programs as vehicles that can help provide our fellow citizens with decent education, decent healthcare and access to it, and decent job opportunities.,,not “hand outs” to the indolent and lazy entitlement queens.
So, if you all are so worried about costs, and if you all are so worried about deficits that you deny cost effective access to healthcare to almost all of our citizens (we DO agree that costs are way too high) why are you not willing to have the “wealthy” pay more…to the tune of a niggardly three or four percent of excess income? If you want, I will even let you redefine the threshold from 250,000 to 1,000,000….
And what’s with this estate tax sneak play? THAT is really productive and needed…and holding extension of unemployment benefits hostage to all that? What is wrong with you all? If you rant about deficits, then close the loopholes, take off the special interest subsidies, and simplify the tax code….but do not ever think that making those with very high incomes pay more is wrong or not viable. You have your self stated billionaires indicating exactly that….probably because they know that a lot of their wealth was due to being in the right place at the right time…and a bit of luck and a lot of perseverance….but not all due solely to their own efforts…..
So don’t tell me about the DEms unless you admit that the GOP is just as culpable…they want everyone else to pay the piper…except those that can best afford it.
You really are the pot calling the kettle black.
Why is it that the most wealthy among us refuse to voluntarily pay more taxes? The federal gov’t actually has a fund to accomodate those payments. Anyone on this board who wants to pay more to cover the hapless and clueless are free to do so. So, put YOUR money where your mouth is and keep your mitts off of mine.
Tiresis aka Cassandra, you are tiresome with your unrelenting attacks. Please cite me some examples of liberal multi millionaires who are as charitable as John Huntsman, Bill Gates. John Kerry avoids paying taxes on his yacht and most of them only give a pittance to charity. How much of the wealthy’s income is enough for you. 10% of the wealthy pay 60% of the taxes already. Should we take away 70,80 or 90% of what they make in order for your Progressive friends to spend it wastefully? What we need is a complete overhaul of the tax code, eliminate all the loopholes and put everyone on a flat or fair tax. The middle and lower middle taxpayers should pay something to have skin in the game. The government needs to cut out all earmarks, discretionary spending and cut their department budgets drastically and then we can talk about balancing the budget.
Riddle me this. If we force the companies to provide coverage for sick people and we don’t require healthy people to pay into the system, how will the insurance system support itself?
Also, our Per Capita health spending will reach over $13k in the next decade. How will the average person be able pay taxes, healthcare costs and still be able support themselves and a family. Are incomes in America going to go up at the same rate as HC spending? As a % of GDP, no country on earth spends as much as we do. Period.
Start thinking of America as a potentially bankrupt nation, unless the fundamentals are changed. Where is the money going to come from?
Based on all the dumb@ss commenters, putting most of you out of work would be good for the industry.
Here’s what I know:
Obama’s president. He’s gonna be president for at least another 2 years. He’ll do some things that you’ll like and some that you won’t. Either way, unless you happen to be an elected official, there ain’t a damn thing you can do about it. Go ahead, get angry. Post things on the internet either supporting him or against him. He doesn’t care.
What I do know is that this is a time to be thankful for what you have. As messed up as this country is, it’s still the best in the world.
Enjoy your morning cup of coffee. Talk to your coworkers, maybe smile at someone you’ve never seen before. Make someone laugh today. Go home tonight and hug your family and remind them that you love them. At any rate, count your blessings and take nothing for granted.
Merry Christmas to all.
Good Liberals, play the class warfare card. You cannot have a civil or intellectual debate without playing the class warfare card – It’s all the rich conservatives fault? That’s you guys can argue? You don’t have to be a “rich conservative” to understand it’s not the governments responsibility to monitor every aspect of our life and shove a healthcare bill that the majority of Reps and Sens did not read! But as good left winged radical liberals, oh I’m sorry you’re new identity is to be called “progressives” you want what everyone else has (since your playing the class warfare card, thought I would too). Obama’s radical agenda for America is taking this country down the wrong road and his radical healthcare bill is proof positive.
Cass, you have a case of intellectual alcoholism where you continue to drink from the pool of resentment of what others have or have achieved. You use every intellectual deflective device to convince yourself of their insincerity, their greed, and their self indulgence. You try to convince yourself that income and wealth are solely the result of serendipitous or fortuitous events and thus are “undeserved”. You use these thoughts to give yourself moral justification to for the vicariously taking of he property of others by the government all while granting yourself the belief that everyone who doesn’t dream about this redistribution of someone else’s income and wealth is a malefactor.
You do all of this meowing without every mentioning what you think a citizen should give to the country, Should it be 60%, 70%, 100%?
As for your fixation on the estate tax aka the “death tax”, I would expect your coveting of accumulated wealth. Redistributionist like you want a shot at annual income and loathe the fact that unspent income becomes wealth and that wealth also needs to be confiscated for the “good of all”. Grabbing wealth is the second fang of your ilks lethal bite at captialism.
You cannot, or will not, allow people to accumulate any wealth since that is an afront to your definition of “fairness”. And that opinion is not tarnished when an Iowa family has to sell off the farm it has worked for 50 years to pay off this tax when the family patriarch passes on. To you, this is “fair”.
Well, Cass, fortunatlely, you are far outnumbered by Americans who are diametrically opposed to just such destructive thoughts and who are buoyed by the ample historical examples of the abject failure of redistributionism, albeit, communism, socialism, fascism, statism or any other “ism” which uses the authoriy of the state to wreak “justice” on us all.
As for your veiled reference to the tax battle going on in Congress. I am not wasting my time over a 3% argument. This whole debate is nonsense and comes down to whether the rich should pay an extra 3%-from a 35% to 38% for the “rich”. Unfortunately, your Dem friends need to use this issue to keep the redistributionist in line by keeping the class warfare emotion at a frenzy. I offer you as Exhibit A.
As concerns your slant on past Repub spending, you know my thoughts on that and you also know that this past election was a repudiation of spending by both parties, so your arguing points are moot.
Waynje, what Constitution are you ready. Where is the govenment allowed to “compete” with the private sector, in CHINA!!!!. And, your analogy regarding auto insurance is so far off the mark it surprising it is used in an insurance blog. Auto liability insurance is required to PROTECT THIRD PARTIES, not FIRST parties as is the case for health insurance.
And your comments about healthcare make it seem that you want universal free healthcare. Well, advance that point further and tell us all how this will be paid for, how much, and by whom.
Fortunately Tom, the battle for the hearts and minds of America seems to be swinging to the Conservative side. The Progressive Left represented by Cass/Tiresis and their wealth redistributionist friends doesn’t seem to be playing so well these days. America showed on 11-2 that it is still a center/right country and will continue to cull the ranks of the idiot left from positions of power. They are all well known and have been targeted for defeat in the next election cycle. We do need to be vigilant and make sure the Conservatives we elected do the right thing and hammer away at Big Spending programs and repeal or defunding this bill. The courts will take a long time seeing this through. It is time now to go the fiscal route for the good of the country.
Well said Tom!
Tom, thanks for the diatribe; it is always SO helpful…but not to the point at all. TAR, sometimes I wonder about you. Common Sense, I agree with you about tax loopholes, excess and stupid and wasteful government spending. However, I would redirect the first round of gutting spending to the special interest giveaways, the waste in the defense budget, and the bloated benefits of federal (and state and local workers) especially healthcare benefits for which they rarely pay a fair share or a share equivalent to what those of us in the private market pay.
I also agree that everyone should have “skin in the game” but let’s then also note that two of the GOP millionaires running for office this past election in my state paid no taxes for the past two years…while still maintaining an enviable lifestyle; it is not only the “poor” who take advantage of these many loopholes, so let’s all be fair here.
Insofar as class warfare, I cannot help but see the opposite side of the coin…that in fact the “rich” including Wall Street, large banks, large corporations, etc., are in fact, waging a class warfare on the rest of the “lower” classes. The benfits of the severe tax reductions under Bush and Reagan have done nothing but concentrate the “wealth” over the past few decades. Meanwhile, all the job creation, trickle down theory, etc., didn’t seem to work very well as this past recession that still lingers with joblessness and frozen credit to small businesses continues. It also seems that the large corps, while very chary about getting and keeping theirs, are not willing to begin hiring again but would rather sit on their treasure chests for acquisition or stock dividends.
You do not gut the safety nets, before you gut the stupidity. You do not gut the safety nets before you eliminate egregious spending abuses in other sectors first.
As for the death taxes, as you so erroneously label them, then exempt illiquid land assets so the family farmer can pass the land. But isn’t this what “life insurance to fund taxes” is for also? You all are so quick to point out some of these issues, but fail to recognize the other issues….like the Waltons, of whom several have fortunes in the billions. And that money is working for all of us how? Besides, there are enough shelters and enough high priced legal help to preserve all of this wealth for the fortunate few, so what is your problem here? And yes, a lot of this wealth is, in fact, fortuitous as well as earned, so don’t get on your very high horse here. So…go ahead…set the limit higher, exclude land assets for agriculture…I don’t care…but for heaven’s sake, recognize the income erosion of the middle class and the erosion of their financial security before you go spouting off about socialism and communism. Tom, you think because you write well and have a good sarcastic bent, that you are right. Guess what…you are no better than some of the other wild eyed nazis that post here; you accuse me of “socialist class warfare” but you revert to your name calling position also. Just THINK a bit further past the past election, the looming elections, the names and labels, and think of pragmatic(humane) solutions without reverting to considering everyone who needs healthcare and insurance is some lazy, entitlement slob; that everyone that has an upside down mortgage was a tool of Fannie and Freddie; and that every social ill is due to the desire to “progessively” solve some of the social issues our country faces.
I do not envy nor covet; I just think that there are social responsibilities that can be afforded without continuing deficits by asking those with more to give a bit more. And 60,70,90% WHERE DID THAT COME FROM…you all couldn’t even stand the 3% increase! Raise the upper bracket and cut the waste…we would have enough for social programs and stable tax rates for all.
Count me among the apparent “wild-eyed nazis”. Nice name-calling, Tiresis. Par for the course.
Cass, I agree with about 20% of what you say. Closing tax loopholes and implementing a “fair” tax is what is needed. Taxing estates on income that has had taxes already paid on it is nothing but redistribution of wealth and affects many in this country.
At the same time we revise the tax laws, government needs to go on a budget reduction diet. This country cannot afford all these social programs when the revenue is down. European countries already have received the message and are taking steps to reduce their budgets and our new leaders need to follow suit. We should have no bills submitted with earmarks and they should be only single item bills, not loaded with sweeteners or other left wing social programs.
The new Congress has pledged that they will send a bill per week to the President to cut spending. They had better do it or will pay the consequences. We have had enough of the big spending politicians and it is high time we get our fiscal house in order. If the President vetos these bills, his political future will be bleak indeed.
Tiresis, THE MONEY I EARN IS NOT YOUR MONEY AND YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO HAVE MY MONEY… PERIOD.
Yeah, there are millionaires and billionaires out there… some who have earned it and others who have been lucky (and even some who have stolen it).
But the point is… we all strive to have what they have and the great thing about our nation is that we all have the opportunity to have that.
Yes I agree, who needs billions of dollars – no one. But it’s their money, not mine. I make my money and they make theirs. Those like you who say they need to give more are simply jeolous, lazy, or bored. Why you are complaining about those who provide millions of jobs, pay 60+% of all taxes, and give more to charity than you could make in 10 lifetimes, they are out working becoming richer than you.
For heavens sake people… this is AMERICA, the land of opportunity. When did “progressives” become such a bunch of whining lazy babies?
Without our free market system, where do you think we would be right now?
Welfare breeds welfare. Keep government out of my life because they have proven they will fail time and time again.
Grow up children. GO earn for yourselves.
Tiresis, you don’t know what my game is. Gee that was your saying on a different thread. Your class warfare and partisan-ship gets old. What does the “GOP” millionaire running for office have to do with anything? Except your disdain for the GOP. Why not have a problem with millionaire Rep. Alan Grayson who has no problem spending taxpayer money. Or Millionaire elitist Barbara Boxer who’s husband benefited dearly from the Senate Committee’s she’s sat on and awarded federal gov contracts to supposed “private firms” or how about that elder multi-millionaire Statesman John Kerry who screwed his own state when he docked his “Yacht” in Rhode Island to escape the state taxes in MASS.? When he’s caught red handed the excuse; well oh ah um it’s being rehabed, yea right and Ted Kennedy was a good driver! Oh but it’s always the GOP or those greedy conservatives who are to blame. Let’s blame Rick Scott because he’s a millionaire, let’s be envious of his entrepeneurial gift, his hard work and ingenuity. The US Constitution states to “Promote the General Welfare”. It does not state to fund or provide the general welfare. It does not state the government must fund (which is the taxpayers) it says to “Promote the General Welfare”. Your guy won in NOvember 2008, but in the last 20 months we’ve found out what “Change” means. His radical left wing socialmarxist agenda is not in step with our Founding Fathers. Slowly he is dismantling the very fabric of our Constitutional Republic, playing the race and class warfare cards that you and your ilk are gladly following. Driving a wedge to divide this country, some consensus builder he’s turned out to be. There is enough blame to go around for the fiscal irresponsibility of all our elected officials. They are failing the taxpayers, they are failing Americans and they are failing the United States. Talk to people in New Jersey and ask them how Multi-Millionaire Gov John Corsine of the evil Wall Street empire Goldman Sachs was? So spare us your class envy and class warfare diatribe!
Cass, Circular arguments is the best you can do. You never seem to get tired of chasing your tail. Your economic theory is so shot with flawed thinking that there is no where to begin to set you straight, or even break your hamster run.
By the way, leaving money in the private sector does create jobs as tacitly admitted to by Pres O when he crafted the tax extension, thereby admitting that his government job creation stimulus model was a failure. So, I think the debate over Reagan/Bush tax rates has won the day and defeated the heretofore highly touted Keynesian mutliplier championed by your progressive friends.
Your continued rich man/poor man theme is tiresome and thread bare. It reminds me of a scene from the Michael Myers movie spoofing whatI envision your view of the world—a secret society made up of rich people who rule the world called the “Pentaverate”, a group comprimsed of the Gettys, the Rothchilds, the Queen, the Vatican and Colonel Sanders (“before he went tits up”). I guess we can now include the Waltons in that elite group.
On a serious note, if for once you could stop beating the “off with their heads” drum, lets do get back to cutting spending cuts (not gutting-that’s pure hyperbole designed to deflect) and eliminating loop holes by implementing a two tired flat tax. I suspect; however, that doing so will be difficult since the “rich” will be left with some “riches” and that will skew your resolve.
I would start with repeal of healthcare, and move on to all government Departments, including Defense, where a freeze of budgets at 2008 levels would be put in place for the next 3 years while we work on a balanced budget. The other cuts would fall into place and would avoid your “gutting” worries.
Wow! Reading all these posts was exausting….but very interesting. After reading all of them, I guess I would have to say that I am of the “progressive” persuation when it comes to this topic….However, I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to move over to the “conservative” side of things if I could find somebody to pay me a decent livable wage for the extremely hard 60 hours a week that I have put so much blood, sweat and tears into for the last 25 years. How come I work so hard, have no family and still struggle to put gas in my car so I can get to work the next day just to do it all over again????…..I guess some of (as Jerry Springer says)you are just born lucky and don’t have to deal with what a struggle life can be even if you are a hard worker!!
On a happier note, the Phillies re-signed Cliff Lee. He turned down an extra $50+ million to sign with the Yankees. See, money DOESN’T always buy happiness!
We can mandate Auto Insurance and Workers’ Compensation. Who will be hurt by millions not having Health Insurance? Ultimately all of us. If some want to “self-insure”, maybe they need to put up a bond or some collateral. They do let people take high deductibles. In the long run we are all better off if everyone can have affordable health insurance. I know people who are taking chances and going withour health insurance now so that they can get in on a more affordable policy in the future. Mainly it is because they can’t afford the high premiums.
Cut the crap, Tom. We are saying a lot of the same things. All I want to do is to make sure that before we cut, we make sure the “cuts” do not fall on those who can least afford to lose the safety net. And…what is so wrong about that?
And all I am saying is that there are those that are better able to contribute than others…and what is so wrong with that? Not class warfare, not confiscatory rates, but common sense. You are so consumed with the “deficits” as am I…so you’all counldn’t find it in your hearts (or purses) to pony up an extra three percent while we have some time to review what gets cut and what doesn’t?
Your response (as well as that of TAR and CommonSense) is more bashing. Why don’t you just admit that your progressive/liberal bashing and socialist accusations are just another way of masking your inability to justify the reason for not wanting that cheesy 3% additional income tax? Despite the nice words, and the pretty syntax, you have not justified why it is wrong to consider looking first to other expenses that we pay for than assuming that cuts must come from the safety net programs. Are you just cheap and cheesy? Talk about class warfare…..
we can mandate auto insurance because you want the priviledge to drive a car… we can mandate workmans comp because we are going to take care of the working man or woman that works in my company and suffered an injury while doing company business… but to mandate health insurance? not everyone wants it! if that is not clear enough, then you need to sit back and listen…
For, the record…people WITHOUT insurance HAVE IN FACT been turned away!!! Get your facts straight!!
More bashing Tiresis? REally? You are the guy or gal playing the class warfare card. Your are the person chanting the Liberal/Progressive/Left Wing talking points. What we are supposed to take that? You come off with this sanctimonious kum-by-ya diversity response, but in the meantime bash the GOP and Conservatives. What a phony!!!
BTW good coup by the Phillies for getting Cliff Lee. I’m a Yankee fan and I didn’t see the Phillies in the picture, especially after they dumped him.
Let me be clear, the 3% left in the private sector will do more to build your safety net revenue than if left in the government’s hands.
You didn’t answer my question concerning taxes for the rich. Let’s try this, the human body has approximately 10 pints of blood, a vagrant in Los Angeles needs a blood transfusion, how many pints would you take from the rich man in New York City (home of Wall street jillionares)to help the vagrant who needs 10 pints of blood.
How much people make or don’t make and their ability to contribute or not is frankly none of your business.
Amen 1099!
I agree, but the Wealth Re-Distributionist Progressive Left don’t see it that way. They are committed to their agenda and it is up to us to hand them their head. Amazing that we repudiated their agenda on 11-2 and they are still spouting off thinking this country owes them a living, free health care, unlimited unemployment benefits etc. We have the momentum now and they are extremely angry that the country is not going along with their plan.
Merle – Being treated doesn’t have anything to do with INSURANCE. It’s the ability to pay for the services received. We could self-insure & would we still be denied health care just because we didn’t have insurance? No… because we would be able to establish the ability to pay for the service. More than likely we would have to prove our ability to pay with the receptionist. If we cannot do so, she would either refer us to another practice or an emergency room. We would then go to the local hospital emergency room and get treated there. Since we cannot pay cash at the emergency room anymore than we could pay at the doctor’s office, we will be treated by virtue of laws put in place to recover from state and federal government some of the costs of an unpaid emergency room visit. We will go home treated, but we will not have established any kind of relationship to a doctor. Most likely, we will have been treated by an overworked and under-appreciated medical resident 72 hours into a 48-hour shift. In some cases, a medical practice who determines a patient is unable to pay will allow a patient to talk to the doctor briefly, either in the doctor’s office, in the waiting room, or briefly over the phone. Our local family physician would become the ER. I’m not sure there are too many ER’s that would flat out deny to treat anyone.
Get your facts straight!!
The solution is easy. The biggest debate that we always have is… where are we going to get the money after we spend it??? The government should have to operate on a fixed budget just like we have to. The answer is not “spend now” and let everyone including future generations pay for it.
Isn’t there some real work to be done in insurance these days or does everyone have time to monitor this comment board several times per day?
You must not be a muliti-tasker Pragmatist. I handled numerous insurance tasks for customers while keeping up with the posts on this site. If you don’t have anything to contribute, just delete it from your email.
As for the rest of us, we are interested in seeing what the Florida judge does when the 20 states case goes forward. Hopefully, it will be the same as Virginia. The momentum has shifted.
Yea I guess we all should just keep our mouths shut and focus on our current work and let the Annointed One take care of us all. It’s time we cede our livelyhood back to the federal government and maybe get a job with the federal government doing insurance. How dare we have an opinion on such a controversal issue as healthcare. Thank you I will get back to work now.
Thanks so much for your helpful, constructive criticism. I just fail to see much benefit or result from these irate diatribes back and forth. We already know the people of this country are divided, probably by design. After all, what can we FIX about our government as long as we’re distracted arguing with each other. Yes, I know where the delete button is though I must say there’s a certain irony about “pragmatist” deleting “common sense”.
Prag, what I did not realize is how often these comment sections are read by officials and company officials. I had attended a meeting with a company to remain nameless, when an IJ article came out questioning it’s solvency and the comments took off. Most were negative and the company was in full damage control mode. The problem with feds, we know they don’t listen to the people and more concerned with a “legacy” as obama and pelosi have proven. Heck the legislators in Washington DC still don’t get it with all that’s going on with extending the Bush Taxes, Earmark laden budget, it’s like their parting shot for not getting re-elected an up yours American voter.
Hey Prag, I am not distracted, just fully awake about what is going on in the country. Millions of us “distracted” folks spoke on 11-2. To say that we are upset at Congress and this administration is putting it mildly. What is Congress’ approval rating, 13% now? These ousted Progressive Liberals have to go home now and face the music for the destruction they have wrought on this country. They may have to move to another state or country to avoid the flogging they deserve.
I have them straight! & for the record, people DO IN FACT GET TURNED AWAY!
In Texas, if we want to clear out an Emergency Room, we just put on an INS cap and walk in. That room is empty in a NY minute.
Thanks for your remarks. I’m in total agreement with you about the message WE sent on 11-2. I appreciate your remarks about how many top management people read these message boards. That does make it more worthy of attention so that maybe finally our voices can be heard. I’m personally so tired of feeling powerless against government and that’s why I’ve become much more “in to” writing my elected officials to at least try to be heard. Perhaps I’ve misjudged this message board.
I write to my representatives on Congress.org all the time on issues. It is like preaching to the choir because they are all conservative and have been the party of “No” to these Progressive Socialists and their agenda. Perhaps the new Congress will not disappoint like the outgoing crowd have been. They have been the worst in this nation’s history.
I read several (way too many, actually) of the posts and simply had to throw a big shout out to Seriously. You absolutely nailed it!
You did something that most politicians and talking heads fail to do in virtually every supposed intelligent conversation I hear. You challenged the very premise of the liberal / progressive argument rather than arguing the “feelings” or the “fairness” or the “outcomes” that are nothing more, in many instances, than distractions from the heart and soul of the issue at hand.
And since we are on the topic of challenging the premise, it continues to befuddle and amaze me that supposed educated individuals actually believe politicians will be successful in (or care a lick about) solving our individual trials and tribulations.
This train wreck of a health care bill is no more about health care than welfare is about helping the poor. It’s nothing more than the latest attempt at a power grab by our federal government.
Confiscation of income and wealth coupled with spending other people’s money is at the core of power hungry elitists interested in nothing more than maximizing personal power.
How about simply protecting my liberty and freedom as outlined and intended in the Constitution? That’s really all I’m looking for….nothing more, nothing less. I’ll take care of the rest.
Progressives bank on a bunch of suckers to lay down while a central authority takes over our lives. Well, we seem to have a lot of suckers in our midst.
The bottom line is far too many of our fellow citizens are soft. The rugged individualists and self-reliant people who formed and built this country would be ashamed of us.
Thank you Buckeye for your post about Seriously. If you are from Ohio, thank you for kicking the majority of the Progressive crowd out on 11-2. Kasich will do a great job as Governor. They talk about Ohio being a battleground state in every election. Looks like they woke up on 11-2 and it will be tough slogging for the Demwits there from now on.
Comon man! Anyone with a brain could tell you that this pile of cr*p is unconstitutional. Let look at the argument of the liberals. Car insurance, hmmm you dont have to own a car do you?
Next will be Obama and his Union buddies telling us it is mandatory for all citizens to buy a GM piece of junk. (Thats “Governmnet Motors” if you didnt now know) Someone please tell me the difference between the government telling me that I have to purchase health insurance or a Gov Motors vehicle, both are good for the economy, both are not provided for in our bill of rights or US Constitution as rights (BTW, only the 2nd amendment gives you a “right” in the US Constitution.) Everything else is giving you and the States protection from an overbearing Federal Government.
You see the Constitution provides you and I and the States protection from the likes of Obama, Eric Holder, Janet Napolitano, Kathleen Sabelis and Tim Gietner.
Thank God for the US Constitution! and this certainly is against it in spirit and its purpose, lets just pray that the activist courts protect us from the other two branches of Government.
Come on Florida judge. You need to rule like the Virginia judge did. 20 states have lined up to challenge this monstrocity. It is definitely unconstitutional, but that doesn’t seem to matter to the Progressive Socialists, after all, it is a living document, right, and is meant to be interpreted to line up with their views. By the way Sarah, since you mentioned Government Motors, did you know that each vehicle they make has a Global Warming grade right on the sticker? These people are unbelievable. A very small minority of our country is made up of these fools and they are trying to run it. It is time for them to go. You forgot to name Nancy Pelosi, Dirty Harry Reid, Chuck Schumer, Tom Harkin, Barney Frank, the 40 or so Czars to the list. I’m sure I forgot a couple of dozen others that need to be run out of town on a rail.
I agree, Common Sense, on Frank and Pelosi. My point was they don’t need to lie to get elected.
The voters in their districts must be from a parallel universe since they know very well what they are getting from those two lunatics and still continue to send them back to Washington.
I have no room to talk, though, since Ohio has its share of humiliating representatives including Voinovich (Rhino who never saw a tax increase or spending program he didn’t like), Sherrod Brown and Dennis Kucinich (another fine political product of Cleveland / Cuyahoga County).
Listening to the radio yesterday (conservative talk radio, what else makes sense?) I heard that many states are planning to file documents that they will not accept this healthcare law in their state…asserting states rights over federal…which follows the constitution. Somewhat off topic: I had to do a presentation recently for a class about a Spanish speaking country; I chose Nicaragua. My research turned up horrible truths about what happened to that country when the socialists got control (Sandanistas, for those old enough to remember the name). It’s worth reading about this. They essentially turned the country from one of the wealthiest, most developed Central American country into the second poorest in all the Americas. They have “free” schooling and “healthcare” but it’s not available in all parts of the country because the country can’t fund it. Hear these drumbeats and you too can forecast the future.
Prag, as a follow up you might look at what the O admin is doing to Honduras. They kicked out their President because he attempted to amend the law limiting his terms, a violation of their Constituition. The O admin, in an attempt to curry favor with Venezuelan strong man Chavez, has worked to restore Pres defrocked Pres, Manuel Zalaya. The US has imposed trade sanctions on Honduras.
This admin seems to want to coddle our enemies and disrespect our allies. I just don’t get it, maybe they just do everything opposite of the last admin. We also picked a fight with Mexico over allowing their trucks in the US, this sparked a mini-trade war. What next???
Tom, This all goes to the goal of undermining free enterprise Capitalism in favor of Marxist Socialism. Obama supports all Socialist regimes everywhere and he probably welcomes several that have sprung up in South & Central America. Bolivia is about as bad as Venezuela. He won’t be happy until all these countries line up against us.
There has been much debate about competing philosophies. I think it is better not to talk in terms of Democrats and Republicans since I believe they are really cut from the same cloth. Maybe different sides or corners, but the same cloth nonetheless.
I think both political parties consider themselves the ruling elite and, in virtually every situation, think party first with country a distant second.
In other words, I believe both parties are in on the what appears to be nothing more than sinister actions by the government against the citizens for whom they should and claim to be working.
Rather than political parties, I think the debate is framed better in other ways: left vs. right, liberal vs. conservative, socialism vs. capitalism / free market or command & control / oppression vs. liberty & freedom.
In order to advance their agenda, I strongly believe the left MUST dupe the citizens and electorate into believing they want only the best for us. I also strongly believe they must convince them, even if only subtly, that the government is the only or at least the best answer to our trials and tribulations (whether real or imagined).
As a result, it also seems rather apparent that the left must also camouflage their agenda with things such as soaring rhetoric, discussions based on feelings rather than reasoned thought, crisis (again, whether real, concocted or, better yet, caused by liberal policies), social justice and/or boogeymen.
Ultimately, though, I think most liberals (a few exceptions would be Pelosi and Barney Frank) have to out and out lie about their true intentions or they never would get elected.
Call me crazy, but I don’t think the election booth lever would get pulled very often for someone who is an open proponent of such policies as higher taxes, ever increasing deficit spending, redistribution of income & wealth, weak national defense, business-killing regulation and unconstitutional power grabs.
Historical outcomes of socialism, as well as fundamental economic principles and human nature, should be obvious to any remotely informed individual with average cognitive abilities. I think most politicians are well aware of history and can at least be considered intelligent life forms.
In light of the above, one can reasonably conclude the detrimental actions they take are intentionally detrimental. I concluded this quite a long time ago. I could be wrong, but I struggle with the notion that they know nothing of history and are, in fact, illiterate.
I think they starve for socialism, especially since they would be the ones in charge. And we all know the ruling elite in charge within any socialist, communist or fascist regime live like royalty and are not subjected to the oppression they inflict on the masses.
Crisis appears to be the rule of thumb in advancing the left’s agenda. I think they actually like high unemployment, high prices at the gas pump, dependency on foreign oil, the class warfare they wage, insolvent Social Security, making our natural resources off-limits and deficit spending. What else is one to conclude when their actions will obviously end in overwhelming and predictable failure?
We have to wise up, ignore the speeches and start to think critically about the actions these people take. When given the choice between oppressive central planning and liberty & freedom, this young conservative will take the latter REGARDLESS of the issue at hand.
Collectivism has not and will never work. Left to their own devices, a free people living in a society fraught with liberty and freedom will do the right thing more times than not. This will not only result in individual advancement, but a charitable spirit aimed at those around us in need.
Buckeye, well said.
Great post Buckeye. I agree with almost all of it except Pelosi & Frank. Their districts don’t care what they say or do. They are made from the same cloth and subscribe to all their nonsense or they wouldn’t keep electing them. Frank had a very good conservative veteran running against him in November and he still didn’t stand a chance.
The Progressives goal is to dumb down our society to the point that people will vote for them on a single pitch like “Hope & Change” which lured many ill informed people to vote for the chosen one. Until Conservatives put forth candidates who can articulate ideas and debate and debunk these Socialist ideas, the country will be vulnerable to soaring rhetoric designed to win elections. Mr. Reach across the aisle failed miserably in all areas and look what we got. Thank goodness the country woke up from their slumber and we can only hope enough people will continue to pay attention and do a number on them in 12.
Yes, I did see a little about Honduras Tom. And yes, it does seem like this administration wants to just curry favor with our enemies (never going to happen, duh!) and insult our allies or just ignore them altogether. Look at it this way, we have one foot up now and only @ 2 years to get the other foot up also. The frog in the hot water is finally beginning to realize the plight and maybe we still have enough strength to jump out, if we can all work together and be of like mind.
Hey Buckeye, You did elect Kasich as Governor and I heard that you returned the legislature to conservative Republican hands. That’s progress, isn’t it? You did “fundamentally change” the picture in this battleground state. People in the rest of the country still wonder how a guy like Kucinich ever got elected to any post. He is as wierd as they get, kind of like Al Frankin in Minnesota. Voters brains must have frozen in that state after electing Jesse Ventura the wrestler as Governor.
Your mention of Franken hit home. I am in MN, the state where joke candidates get elected-Exhibit A- Jesse “The Body” Ventura. And the joke this year is Mark Dayton, former misfit Senator, who won by the narrowest of margins. Fortunately for us, the MN House and Senate went Republican, so his agenda of ever higher taxes will have a rought ride in a State that has overspent by several BILLION dollars.
Tom, I am from Texas and we would never elect jokers like these idiots. Texas picked up 4 additional House seats this year due to the influx of population from the northern rust belt states. They are coming here for jobs, lack of a state income tax and good climate both weatherwise and economic. Gov Perry was challenged by an Obama Progressive supporter this year and Perry won by around 500,000 votes so we tend to reject liberal solutions to problems.
Well, yes we do pretty well with our elections here in TX, sending clear statements of our feelings. But, we have re-elected Ricky. Ah, yes, that’s right….there wasn’t another valid choice. He IS studying the constitution quite thoroughly I hear to see how we can excuse ourselves from Obamacare. Still, he promised last election he would clear up our border security problem but two weeks later said he wasn’t going to do anything about it.
Hey Prag, I guessed you missed the recent article about Perry creating a force within the DPS to help with border enforcement. These guys are like Special Forces and have helicopters and weapons to help with border enforcement since our wonderful Federal Government will not do much to help. Do you think Bill White would do something like this? He was the mayor of the biggest sanctuary city outside of LA. He would have had open borders so they could come right in.
No, I certainly didn’t think Bill White would do any of that; that’s why I didn’t vote for him…. Anyway, the election I was referring to was the one before this. Not to say the things he’s doing now aren’t needed but they were needed four years ago also when he didn’t deliver on his campaign promise. It made it a lot harder to vote for him but there were no other really valid contenders for the job.
The Federal Government is charged with protection of our borders. They have failed completely. The previous Congress voted to build the fence and do the electronic monitoring, hire more agents etc ad nauseum. Perry is on record for asking the Feds several times to send more border patrol or troops to defend this border. It has fallen mainly on deaf ears. The President couldn’t even give him 5 minutes to talk when the President came to Texas. I guess Perry got tired of waiting for Obama to do something.