Agenda, I have no problems with drunk drivers being jailed. I think that’s a great idea. I just don’t think that bars and restaraunts should be held responsible for people being stupid. No bartender has ever held somebody down and forced them to drink alcohol. Absent forcing somebody to drink I don’t think the bar should be liable.
Agenda. Where did you read that the Hispanic named drunk driver was an illegal alien? You must really go beserk when you read that the most highly decorated Medal of Honor recipients from a minority group are Hispanics. You must’ve just fell off a rickety old truck on the way from the Dust Bowl to the fruit orchards out in the West Coast!
Well, it’s obvious that the bar was the one driving the car, not the idiot who drank too much alcohol and then killed people. Glad he got time; too bad the bar lost its license.
Cheerleaders is known for being a pretty tame “go-go” place. Back before I was married, we checked it out once. I should’ve known what we were in for when I overheard someone walking out say “What a rip-off! I’ve seen more skin at the beach!”
To those who were bemused by two innocent people being killed by a drunk driver:
-Rob: 22 years is NOT ENOUGH time to serve !
That perp will be out & ALIVE in 22 years. Will Mr Mrs. Reed be alive in 22 years ?
-LastBat: Understand this: unless you have tough, iron-clad laws, and revocation of bars’ licenses, the next bar will still serve the drinker
-Ralph: I’ll make this simple…..-you don’t make sense
Your “skin” comment has no connection with
the fact that 2 people are dead at the hands of another drunk driver
What Needs To Be Done:
-A major public program of education advising all that if you drive drunk and hurt someone or worse, you WILL go to jail for a minimum of ___ years. No parole, no plea bargains
If that means you lose your home, your job, your wife, etc, so be it
People will learn by example
Otherwise, every morning when you open a newspaper, or turn-on the radio or TV you’ll continue to hear about this carnage
It can stop.
Remember (eg) how incredible it seemed when the law was first passed that smoking would no longer be allowed in restaurants & bars
Everyone thought, this will NEVER work
But with a little “pain” it DID work!
Plus, anyone caught DWI/DUI and not a legal citizen of the USA will be deported immediately, despite any of the above; wife, home, children, etc
Maybe they wouldn’t have killed anyone if they WEREN’T here to start with
Sorry, I have no preconvictions against illegal aliens, or as a famous NJ Senator (who should re-retire already) calls them, “undocumented immigrants”….-that’s like calling a drug dealer, and “unlicensed pharmacist” (!), but many times; too many times, when I see, or read the names of the offenders, they appear to be from (shall we say) third world countries
I say America FIRST to stop this carnage
I just pray someone is listening
Agenda: You are absolutely correct, my comment was insensitive and I would like to formally apologize for it. I was responding to JP’s comment about “Go-Go bar.”
I completely agree with you: Something needs to be done about DUI in this country. Philadelphia just lost another cop recently, killed in the line of duty while he was responding to a robbery in progress call. His squad car was broadsided and he died instantly. The perp that hit him? He was drunk, running from the law because he had heroin and a shotgun in his possession. Of course he’s fine.
In some countries, there is an absolute ZERO tolerance policy for DUI. In Iceland, for example, you can lose your license for up to a year if your BAC is .02. Harsh? Absolutely. Effective? Definitely.
Agenda…you are what is wrong with this country and you are a bigot. Just because someone has a name other than Jones or Smith does not mean they are illegal.
So they served him drunk, then threw him out. The bar made its money then just wanted to get rid of him. I read elsewhere they called a cab but he got into his car and drove off. I guess they were just hoping he would calmly walk home singing how dry I am??
Mr Lastbat: The reason I correctly contend that bars are (also) responsible is because; then who will observe, judge & act at the point of need, that the drinker is unsound for consumpyion or more consumption. The barkeepis supposed to be a professional bartender; the kind of a guy..(-and you’ve heard them say/brag) that they can “spot a drunk at 30 feet”.
Admittedly, no bartender forces a guy to drink, but my experience is that the same bartender may scarf-up as many “20’s” from the jerk as he can, before “deciding” the guys’ had enough.
It’s at that point that the ultimate danger begins:
will he drive, walk, bother or be abother to someone along the way ?
Does/doesn’t/shouldn’t the bar have some legal responsibiltyto at least call his kin or a cab, or if none..the Police, so they can check the guy out, and maybe dry him out overnight as a guest of the county, and in doing so very possibly save alife or lives ?
So there’s a whole process to identifying, addressing and stopping the guy from leaving until he’s under control, -or controlled
joseph: Where did you read I said the perp was an illegal alien.
Read it again carefully
I said that anyone caught DUI/DWI, and not a citizen of the US should be deported, and that many times (here; I’ll interject, my observation & experience)is that they are from third world countries of origin.
And being a holder of the Medal of Honor does not give anyone the right to drive DUI/DWI irrespective of their ethnicity.
Me ?
Yes: my origin is from the third world
Terry: Refer my comments above to joseph.
Ditto.
Ralph: Thank you, and kindly continue to do your part to talk to everyoneto drive safely & soberly
We are now at the doorstep of the Holidays, friends
I think each of us can do our part to encourage sober driving, and to promote this to law-makers so we can stop this dreadful carnage
No, I don’t think bars and bartenders should be responsible for what drunk people do. It was the drunk’s choice to get drunk and the drunk should be held responsible for whatever occurs.
My last word to lastbat:
Then WHY do bars purchase Liquor Liability
coverage at usually high rates.
To protect their legal liability from serving alcohol to peeps, including drunks; whether they knew the guy was already in the tank or not.
The drunk will serve time, pay a fine or serve a suspension for DWI/DUI, etc, but the BAR held responsible for serving the guy who did the injury or damage to others will pay via their carrier to the agrieved
Have a great day
And please: do your part; as each of us should be, to watch out for and yes to REPORT drunks, or DD’s (destructive drivers)
Thank you
Agenda, bars purchase liquor liability insurance because of dram shop laws, not the other way around. If bars were not held liable for the actions of their patrons they would not have to purchase liquor liability laws. It is the person who caused the damage who should pay, not the bar. The liability of any vendor of any product (as regards to use of the product causing harm to a third party) should be only to determine if the person purchasing the product can legally make the purchase. After that the vendor should have no liability.
I agree with you whole-heartedly. The liability of the bar should not extend beyond their property line. If using the same logic as Agenda, the grocery store should also be liable for selling a 12 pack to someone who goes home and drinks it and then drives around till they kill someone.
As someone who has been hit by a drunk driver, and as a former law enforcement officer, I disagree with the liability the bar is put under. The fault rests with the drunk driver and the drunk driver alone. The problem is we are in a society where blame is always trying to be attached to the person with the money. Not necessarily the one who’s at fault.
Did anyone else read the 100 page report about this incident? Did everyone here get the whole story? The guy gets drunk, goes into a strip club and gets even more dangerously intoxicated. They claim to have flagged him just before he attacked some of the female “talent”. He then backs into a car in the parking lot of the place before KILLING TWO PEOPLE. That’s someones father, brother, uncle, cousin, mom, sister, aunt, friend, etc. The strip club didn’t call the authorities when their “lovely ladies” were attacked nor did they when a car in their lot was hit.
The liability of the bar shouldn’t extend beyond the property line? I’ll bet your attitude would change if your mother’s body were found inside vehicle wreckage. Who says that the blame has to “go to the people with the money”. Did you read anywhere that the family is seeking damages? No… because they aren’t. They’re looking to keep this from happening to another family. I’m not saying it was the bars fault for over-serving him. If you read the report, they knew exactly how intoxicated he was when he left the facility. They even tried to chase the car through the parking lot to stop him. Why? Because they knew they had over-served him and he should not be operating a motor vehicle. He was going to kill someone or himself, and he did. So why don’t you picture finding your child or wife or husband lying without a pulse at the hands of a drunken piece of crap before you start playing the lawyers side of things. There are many hard working people from Gloucester, just as any other town in the area. People who have been there since the early 1900’s when the town was booming. The people who were killed were Gloucester natives. Hard working, awesome people that I personally know.
You can take your credentials and know exactly what you can do with them. You sound like the lawyer that defends pedophiles, murderers and rapists because of technicalities. One day when tragidy hits your home, I hope someone get’s away with it, too.
In the mean time, this guys got 22 years in prison, he’ll be out in 11 with good behavior… probably drink and drive… maybe you should move your family to Gloucester.
Agenda, I have no problems with drunk drivers being jailed. I think that’s a great idea. I just don’t think that bars and restaraunts should be held responsible for people being stupid. No bartender has ever held somebody down and forced them to drink alcohol. Absent forcing somebody to drink I don’t think the bar should be liable.
Agenda. Where did you read that the Hispanic named drunk driver was an illegal alien? You must really go beserk when you read that the most highly decorated Medal of Honor recipients from a minority group are Hispanics. You must’ve just fell off a rickety old truck on the way from the Dust Bowl to the fruit orchards out in the West Coast!
My mom was totally sober and tried going the wrong way down 130 once.
Was she driving home from work at Cheerleaders?
I’m an advocate against drunk driving like most, but 22 YEARS is a lot!
Uh, he killed two people…hello???
22 years is not sufficient for two lives.
Well, it’s obvious that the bar was the one driving the car, not the idiot who drank too much alcohol and then killed people. Glad he got time; too bad the bar lost its license.
When did this happen, 1968?
Cheerleaders is known for being a pretty tame “go-go” place. Back before I was married, we checked it out once. I should’ve known what we were in for when I overheard someone walking out say “What a rip-off! I’ve seen more skin at the beach!”
To those who were bemused by two innocent people being killed by a drunk driver:
-Rob: 22 years is NOT ENOUGH time to serve !
That perp will be out & ALIVE in 22 years. Will Mr Mrs. Reed be alive in 22 years ?
-LastBat: Understand this: unless you have tough, iron-clad laws, and revocation of bars’ licenses, the next bar will still serve the drinker
-Ralph: I’ll make this simple…..-you don’t make sense
Your “skin” comment has no connection with
the fact that 2 people are dead at the hands of another drunk driver
What Needs To Be Done:
-A major public program of education advising all that if you drive drunk and hurt someone or worse, you WILL go to jail for a minimum of ___ years. No parole, no plea bargains
If that means you lose your home, your job, your wife, etc, so be it
People will learn by example
Otherwise, every morning when you open a newspaper, or turn-on the radio or TV you’ll continue to hear about this carnage
It can stop.
Remember (eg) how incredible it seemed when the law was first passed that smoking would no longer be allowed in restaurants & bars
Everyone thought, this will NEVER work
But with a little “pain” it DID work!
Plus, anyone caught DWI/DUI and not a legal citizen of the USA will be deported immediately, despite any of the above; wife, home, children, etc
Maybe they wouldn’t have killed anyone if they WEREN’T here to start with
Sorry, I have no preconvictions against illegal aliens, or as a famous NJ Senator (who should re-retire already) calls them, “undocumented immigrants”….-that’s like calling a drug dealer, and “unlicensed pharmacist” (!), but many times; too many times, when I see, or read the names of the offenders, they appear to be from (shall we say) third world countries
I say America FIRST to stop this carnage
I just pray someone is listening
Agenda: You are absolutely correct, my comment was insensitive and I would like to formally apologize for it. I was responding to JP’s comment about “Go-Go bar.”
I completely agree with you: Something needs to be done about DUI in this country. Philadelphia just lost another cop recently, killed in the line of duty while he was responding to a robbery in progress call. His squad car was broadsided and he died instantly. The perp that hit him? He was drunk, running from the law because he had heroin and a shotgun in his possession. Of course he’s fine.
In some countries, there is an absolute ZERO tolerance policy for DUI. In Iceland, for example, you can lose your license for up to a year if your BAC is .02. Harsh? Absolutely. Effective? Definitely.
Agenda…you are what is wrong with this country and you are a bigot. Just because someone has a name other than Jones or Smith does not mean they are illegal.
So they served him drunk, then threw him out. The bar made its money then just wanted to get rid of him. I read elsewhere they called a cab but he got into his car and drove off. I guess they were just hoping he would calmly walk home singing how dry I am??
Mr Lastbat: The reason I correctly contend that bars are (also) responsible is because; then who will observe, judge & act at the point of need, that the drinker is unsound for consumpyion or more consumption. The barkeepis supposed to be a professional bartender; the kind of a guy..(-and you’ve heard them say/brag) that they can “spot a drunk at 30 feet”.
Admittedly, no bartender forces a guy to drink, but my experience is that the same bartender may scarf-up as many “20’s” from the jerk as he can, before “deciding” the guys’ had enough.
It’s at that point that the ultimate danger begins:
will he drive, walk, bother or be abother to someone along the way ?
Does/doesn’t/shouldn’t the bar have some legal responsibiltyto at least call his kin or a cab, or if none..the Police, so they can check the guy out, and maybe dry him out overnight as a guest of the county, and in doing so very possibly save alife or lives ?
So there’s a whole process to identifying, addressing and stopping the guy from leaving until he’s under control, -or controlled
joseph: Where did you read I said the perp was an illegal alien.
Read it again carefully
I said that anyone caught DUI/DWI, and not a citizen of the US should be deported, and that many times (here; I’ll interject, my observation & experience)is that they are from third world countries of origin.
And being a holder of the Medal of Honor does not give anyone the right to drive DUI/DWI irrespective of their ethnicity.
Me ?
Yes: my origin is from the third world
Terry: Refer my comments above to joseph.
Ditto.
Ralph: Thank you, and kindly continue to do your part to talk to everyoneto drive safely & soberly
We are now at the doorstep of the Holidays, friends
I think each of us can do our part to encourage sober driving, and to promote this to law-makers so we can stop this dreadful carnage
No, I don’t think bars and bartenders should be responsible for what drunk people do. It was the drunk’s choice to get drunk and the drunk should be held responsible for whatever occurs.
My last word to lastbat:
Then WHY do bars purchase Liquor Liability
coverage at usually high rates.
To protect their legal liability from serving alcohol to peeps, including drunks; whether they knew the guy was already in the tank or not.
The drunk will serve time, pay a fine or serve a suspension for DWI/DUI, etc, but the BAR held responsible for serving the guy who did the injury or damage to others will pay via their carrier to the agrieved
Have a great day
And please: do your part; as each of us should be, to watch out for and yes to REPORT drunks, or DD’s (destructive drivers)
Thank you
Agenda, bars purchase liquor liability insurance because of dram shop laws, not the other way around. If bars were not held liable for the actions of their patrons they would not have to purchase liquor liability laws. It is the person who caused the damage who should pay, not the bar. The liability of any vendor of any product (as regards to use of the product causing harm to a third party) should be only to determine if the person purchasing the product can legally make the purchase. After that the vendor should have no liability.
I agree with you whole-heartedly. The liability of the bar should not extend beyond their property line. If using the same logic as Agenda, the grocery store should also be liable for selling a 12 pack to someone who goes home and drinks it and then drives around till they kill someone.
As someone who has been hit by a drunk driver, and as a former law enforcement officer, I disagree with the liability the bar is put under. The fault rests with the drunk driver and the drunk driver alone. The problem is we are in a society where blame is always trying to be attached to the person with the money. Not necessarily the one who’s at fault.
Did anyone else read the 100 page report about this incident? Did everyone here get the whole story? The guy gets drunk, goes into a strip club and gets even more dangerously intoxicated. They claim to have flagged him just before he attacked some of the female “talent”. He then backs into a car in the parking lot of the place before KILLING TWO PEOPLE. That’s someones father, brother, uncle, cousin, mom, sister, aunt, friend, etc. The strip club didn’t call the authorities when their “lovely ladies” were attacked nor did they when a car in their lot was hit.
The liability of the bar shouldn’t extend beyond the property line? I’ll bet your attitude would change if your mother’s body were found inside vehicle wreckage. Who says that the blame has to “go to the people with the money”. Did you read anywhere that the family is seeking damages? No… because they aren’t. They’re looking to keep this from happening to another family. I’m not saying it was the bars fault for over-serving him. If you read the report, they knew exactly how intoxicated he was when he left the facility. They even tried to chase the car through the parking lot to stop him. Why? Because they knew they had over-served him and he should not be operating a motor vehicle. He was going to kill someone or himself, and he did. So why don’t you picture finding your child or wife or husband lying without a pulse at the hands of a drunken piece of crap before you start playing the lawyers side of things. There are many hard working people from Gloucester, just as any other town in the area. People who have been there since the early 1900’s when the town was booming. The people who were killed were Gloucester natives. Hard working, awesome people that I personally know.
You can take your credentials and know exactly what you can do with them. You sound like the lawyer that defends pedophiles, murderers and rapists because of technicalities. One day when tragidy hits your home, I hope someone get’s away with it, too.
In the mean time, this guys got 22 years in prison, he’ll be out in 11 with good behavior… probably drink and drive… maybe you should move your family to Gloucester.